PDA

View Full Version : Ken-do-nim's Spell Fixes/Clarifications Redux



ken-do-nim
2007-09-10, 02:50 PM
Hi all -

I could have resurrected the older thread, but I decided to start with a fresh new one. My spell fixes have undergone some tweaks and alterations, and I thought others on this forum might find them useful. Please let me know about other spells that need fixing or clarifying. [And sorry about the odd spacing where some lines wrap and some don't]

ALL

1. Summoning
1a. Summoning uses the individualized variant rule. When creating the
statistics for a summoned monster, the caster can change one feat the monster has, provided the feat swapped out was not a prerequisite for another one the monster has and with the new feat a feat progression can be made in which all the prerequisites fit (a feat progression is "it took xyz at 1HD, abc at 3HD..." etc. Any skill choices left vague should also be chosen ahead of time (such as with the avoral's knowledge or lillend perform skills).
1b. Abilities used by a summoned creature that have limitations per day must
be kept track of for all summonings that day. For instance, if a lillend is
summoned in the morning and casts spells, when the lillend is summoned later
that same day those spell slots are still used up.
1c. Spells cast by a summoned creature DO have their durations continue beyond the end of the summoning spell. So a spellcaster can summon a lillend at the beginning of the day to cast undetectable alignment on a party member and it will last for the normal 24 hour duration.

2. All force effects allow spell resistance and can be dispelled by the touch
of a rod of cancellation.

3. All spells which create energy are evocation spells and allow spell resistance.

SPELLS (alphabetical order)

Alter Self
a. This spell will not grant flight no matter what the caster changes into
unless the caster has flight in his natural form.
b. A familiar can be absorbed into the caster's form, but this spell cannot
otherwise allow a familiar to change shape.

Assay Spell Resistance - banned

Blade Barrier
a. A rod of cancellation can take it down.
b. An opponent who makes a successful reflex save moves one square away of their choice. An opponent who cannot move, or has no open square to move to, cannot make a save vs. this spell. This goes for other similar spells.

Blast of Flame - evocation and allows spell resistance.

Delay Death - banned

Dimension Door - willing allies who ready an action to attack just after
the teleport attack as if coming out of invisibility.

Divine Power - spellcasting while this spell is active is prohibited (just
like Tenser's Transformation)

Enervate - fort save for 1/2 round down

Fire Shield - creatures with natural attacks and reach are still affected.

Flaming Sphere - an opponent who makes a successful reflex save against a
flaming sphere (or similar spell) moves one square away. This still stops the
sphere's movement. An opponent who cannot move, or has no open square to move to, cannot make a save vs. this spell. This goes for other similar spells.

Forcecage - allows spell resistance and a reflex save to negate
(move the target to the square of their choice just outside the cage). Change the material component to a focus.

Freedom of Movement - it does not provide any benefit to grapple checks.
Rather, it gives a +20 bonus to escape artist checks like a salve of
slipperiness does.

Grease
a. The description of the balance skill only discusses moving through a
slippery area. Thus any individual standing on a greased area who does not
attempt to move is not considered flat-footed if he has less than 5 ranks in
balance.
b. The spell description mentions making a balance check for those moving into or through a greased area. A balance check must also be made for moving out of the greased area. Keep in mind though that failure does not necessarily mean staying in the greased area; it could also mean ending up prone in the next square out of the area if the victim so desires.

Greater Arcane Sight - it shows every detail of every active spell. For
example, it would reveal not only a resist energy spell but a resist cold 20
energy spell.

Heal - also removes all ability penalties

Imbue Familiar With Spell Ability
a. The familiar can share spells with the master just as the master shares
spells with it.
b. A sorcerer archmage casting it can make all the decisions ordinarily made
at casting time at the time the spell is given to the familiar. For instance,
an archmage with mastery of elements can give the familiar a lightning ray
instead of the usual scorching ray. The sorcerer can also apply a metamagic
feat to a spell, losing the appropriate spell slot. When a familiar casts a
metamagic-enhanced spell, its casting time is increased just like when the
sorcerer casts it himself. Another example is with mastery of shaping; the
sorcerer can decide up front where the spaces are. A good usage of this is
granting the familiar a fireball where the middle square is out of the spell's
area of effect. Then when the familiar casts the spell, it can center the
fireball on itself and not be injured. On the other hand, the archmage's
reach ability can't be transferred to the familiar, nor can the mastery of
counterspelling.

Lesser Orb spells - all evocation and allow spell resistance.

Limited Wish - this spell can be used to duplicate spells needed for item
creation and permanency (including permanency itself)

Mass Fire Shield - revise the spell level to 8 instead of 5.

Mass Resist Energy - revise the spell level to 6 (even for cleric/druid)

Mass Shield of Faith - revise the spell level to 5

Miracle - this spell can be used to duplicate spells needed for item
creation and permanency (including permanency itself)

Mordenkainen's Sword - switching it to a different opponent is a move
action.

Nerveskitter - banned (you can't use an immediate action while flat-footed
anyway)

Orb spells - all evocation and allow spell resistance.

Polymorph
a. This is no longer just one spell. Each version of the polymorph
spell learned by a sorcerer or in a wizard's spell book allows the change of
shape into one specific creature at a given amount of hit dice. For instance,
"polymorph into 7-headed hydra" or "polymorph into bulette".
b. See alter self for effects on a familiar.

Polymorph Any Object - like polymorph, this is broken up into many spells,
each called something like "polymorph any object into xyz".

Project Image - touch attacks delivered by this spell are rolled as ranged
touch attacks, so dex is used.

Ray of Clumsiness - fort save for 1/2 dex penalty, round down

Ray of Dizziness - will save at -4 negates

Ray of Enfeeblement - fort save for 1/2 str penalty, round down

Ray of Entropy - fort save for 1/2 penalties

Ray of Light - will save for 1/2 duration rounded down

Ray of Stupidity - banned

Resist Energy - this now works just like the special ability energy
resistance; damage is resisted per round not per attack.

Shapechange
a. Like polymorph, each version of this spell only allows the change of shape
into one particular creature (and at a particular amount of hit dice if the DM
allows changing shape into an advanced creature). So for instance there is
"shapechange into iron golem", "shapechange into leonal", etc.
b. Forms with an ability usable a number of times per day must be kept
track of for all castings of this spell per day. For instance, a leonal can
heal up to its hit points per day with lay on hands. If the caster casts
"shapechange into leonal" in the morning, uses up the healing, then later casts the spell again that same day, that ability will have been used up. This even extends to casting via scroll.
c. The DM is urged to use common sense in adjucating this spell. For instance, it would be very reasonable for the DM to assess the same spell-casting failure for trying to cast while shape changed into an iron golem as the iron body spell.
d. A choker gets 2 standard actions per round due to its natural speed;
however spell-casting cannot be rushed so a spell-caster shapechanged into a choker must use BOTH of those 2 standard actions to cast a standard action casting length spell.
e. See alter self for effects on the caster's familiar.

Shivering Touch - banned

Stinking Cloud - poison immunity negates the effects of this spell.

Time Stop
a. Spells with the duration expiring in the last round of a time stop go
off just after the time stop expires (so you can cast delayed blast fireball in
the last round of the time stop with a delay of 1 round and it will explode and
affect opponents)
b. Time stop cannot be cast during a time stop.

Touch of Idiocy - will save for 1/2 to all penalties, round down

Wall of Stone - when an opponent saves successfully to avoid entrapment,
move him or her to the square of their choice just outside the wall.

Wish - this spell can be used to duplicate spells needed for item creation
and permanency (including permanency itself)

Wraithstrike - banned

Thinker
2007-09-10, 03:00 PM
It seems like all you did was make it so people have less reason to want to do damage as a caster.

ken-do-nim
2007-09-10, 03:25 PM
It seems like all you did was make it so people have less reason to want to do damage as a caster.

I don't believe that the entire post can be summed up so easily. If you have specific criticisms I'd be glad to hear them. Otherwise ... huh?

drunkmonk
2007-09-10, 03:34 PM
cool house rules.

DM

Thinker
2007-09-10, 03:34 PM
I don't believe that the entire post can be summed up so easily. If you have specific criticisms I'd be glad to hear them. Otherwise ... huh?

You seem to have moved a bunch of spells to Evocation that deal damage, probably because you feel that this is the reason for the Evocation school. You then proceeded to make it so they offer spell-resistance. This makes it so that there is less reason to deal damage: its harder to do and not worth the investment.

It also seems as though you tried to make Spell Resistance more viable, but this does little to help that. Great, casters can no longer gain a +10 bonus once or twice a day, but they can still use all the other ways to increase caster level and thus overcome SR.

I also see that you tried to affect specific combos of spells, which is more along the lines of treating the symptom, rather than the cause. None of these problems are because of the combos themselves, but what allows the spells to work that way to begin with.

The only way to "fix" wizards is to not use them. Use another casting system if you want them to be weaker or make your own.

ken-do-nim
2007-09-10, 03:51 PM
You seem to have moved a bunch of spells to Evocation that deal damage, probably because you feel that this is the reason for the Evocation school. You then proceeded to make it so they offer spell-resistance. This makes it so that there is less reason to deal damage: its harder to do and not worth the investment.

It also seems as though you tried to make Spell Resistance more viable, but this does little to help that. Great, casters can no longer gain a +10 bonus once or twice a day, but they can still use all the other ways to increase caster level and thus overcome SR.


I hope you can see that these go hand-in-hand. I realize you missed the previous discussion thread that went along with the origin of these changes. Think of the orb spell changes not so much as a boost to evocation as a nerf to conjuration, btw. [Edit: This also touches upon school identity. Evocation is the one that makes force and energy effects out of thin air. Conjuration is about switching matter from one place to another.]

Please also keep in mind that this is only my spell fix document. The other ways to increase caster level are addressed in my feats & item fix documents.



I also see that you tried to affect specific combos of spells, which is more along the lines of treating the symptom, rather than the cause. None of these problems are because of the combos themselves, but what allows the spells to work that way to begin with.


I did? At any rate, given the 3.5 material, this is my attempt to make it more playable. Dealing with the cause makes it ... not so 3.5 anymore.



The only way to "fix" wizards is to not use them. Use another casting system if you want them to be weaker or make your own.

Not using wizards is unacceptable. I might as well not play 3.5. Which I could do, but then I wouldn't be posting here, would I? I am happy with patching 3.5 as best as I can. Of course it is not perfect, but as an intellectual challenge I enjoy it.

Thinker
2007-09-10, 04:00 PM
Not using wizards is unacceptable. I might as well not play 3.5. Which I could do, but then I wouldn't be posting here, would I? I am happy with patching 3.5 as best as I can. Of course it is not perfect, but as an intellectual challenge I enjoy it.

It is not unacceptable. WoTC has released viable replacements for Wizards by way of Incarnum, Binders, Truenamers, etc. I just feel that patching Core is much more work with little reward than just choosing not to use some of Core.

ken-do-nim
2007-09-10, 04:06 PM
It is not unacceptable. WoTC has released viable replacements for Wizards by way of Incarnum, Binders, Truenamers, etc. I just feel that patching Core is much more work with little reward than just choosing not to use some of Core.

I doubt that if I advertised a 3.5 game but said no wizards allowed that I'd get a lot of attendance :smallcool:

Plus I don't own those other books.

Reinboom
2007-09-10, 04:32 PM
I doubt that if I advertised a 3.5 game but said no wizards allowed that I'd get a lot of attendance :smallcool:

Plus I don't own those other books.

I ban Wizards right off (as well as clerics and druids). Just call the sorcerer a wizard and the favored soul a cleric, and I haven't had any issues with players.


For the massive moving of elements to evocation - I agree, although I disagree to the whole addition of SR to them. That was one of the few things that gave blasting an edge over most spells.

And I also agree with Thinker in that you should probably try to look towards the cause rather than the effect, for most of these. What you did with polymorph is a good start (still unfortunately allows broken-ness, but it did subtle it down).

For your summoning rules: And what occurs if you summon multiple creatures with per day abilities and have them each using sometimes the same ones, sometimes different ones? Then later on you summon another - which summoning does it go by?

Stormcrow
2007-09-10, 06:04 PM
A little part of me died just now...
Why do you feel that just about everything should be suseptible to spell resistance, have you ever actually been in a party fighting something so strong only the caster can really hurt it? And he's got about _five_ spells that can get by its spell resistance, so you don't all die?

Not anymore...

Krellen
2007-09-10, 06:27 PM
[H]ave you ever actually been in a party fighting something so strong only the caster can really hurt it?
Not once.

What the heck are you fighting? Maybe you should stick to appropriate CRs.

Solo
2007-09-10, 06:32 PM
Golems, perchance?

Krellen
2007-09-10, 06:33 PM
I don't think the wizard is the lynch-pin in a fight against a golem. Magic Immunity is way better than SR.

Reel On, Love
2007-09-10, 06:54 PM
I don't think the wizard is the lynch-pin in a fight against a golem. Magic Immunity is way better than SR.

Actually, golems are startlingly vulnerable to certain kinds of magic, due to their lack of intelligence. A classic anti-golem combo (besides Orb spells with SR: No) is Solid Fog plus Ventriloquism. You can lead the golem around the fog for as long as you like.

Glitterdust, which a wizard should have prepared at any given point, works against golems. An Iron Golem has a +6 Will save. A Stone Golem has +4.

Illusions are also great against golems, because they can't figure things out--if they see an illusion as the nearest target, odds are they'll go for it; you can keep the golem entertained while your party sets up a way to take care of it.

So basically, the wizard disables or engages the golem so the rest of the party can mop it up. Not too different from most encounters.

And, of course, golems can't fly, so as long as they're not in a 10' by 10' room or something, they can't actually hurt the wizard.

Saph
2007-09-10, 07:45 PM
A little part of me died just now...
Why do you feel that just about everything should be suseptible to spell resistance, have you ever actually been in a party fighting something so strong only the caster can really hurt it? And he's got about _five_ spells that can get by its spell resistance, so you don't all die?

Not anymore...

If you're fighting an enemy that's too strong to be hurt by anything but spells, AND has SR too good for the spellcasters to beat, then the enemy is WAY above your CR. Preventing wizards from being able to beat things way above their CR is a GOOD thing.

The spells Ken-Do-Nim is suggesting nerfing are mostly the hideously-overpowered ones anyway. The other changes, such as moving damage spells to the Evocation school, are to try and remedy one of the two big problems with Evocation, namely, that Evocation's supposed to be the damage school, but you can do damage just fine (and often better) without it.

There are a few spells not on the list which probably should be, like the Celerity line and the second useage of Gate. Generally, these look like good house rules to me (though there's no way my group could be bothered to learn them).

- Saph

Krellen
2007-09-10, 07:55 PM
Well, I certainly wouldn't let any of that fly at my table. For one, I dislike the downgrade of the golem's "Magic Immunity"; it should be immune to all magic save those indicated, and don't think the "that allows spell resistance" part belongs there. Secondly, I don't think a non-intelligent creature would follow a voice (unless it was its master's), because that is unlikely to be in its "program". And it would take a good illusion to fit the program as well. Mindless things aren't animals - they're automatons.

Wizards need to be toned down; frankly, if you really think wizards can tackle every encounter - and this is proper - you've got it wrong.

Reel On, Love
2007-09-10, 08:01 PM
Well, I certainly wouldn't let any of that fly at my table. For one, I dislike the downgrade of the golem's "Magic Immunity"; it should be immune to all magic save those indicated, and don't think the "that allows spell resistance" part belongs there. Secondly, I don't think a non-intelligent creature would follow a voice (unless it was its master's), because that is unlikely to be in its "program". And it would take a good illusion to fit the program as well. Mindless things aren't animals - they're automatons.
Really? Personally I think "no spells affect this monster, LULZ!" is a crappy patch for wizards being overpowered.

If you're fighting a golem, it has generally been told to "attack intruders" or something of the sort. It can't tell that the Ghost Sound it can't see isn't an intruder; it can't tell an illusion isn't an actual person. It would target them just as it would any person.

"Magic immunity" that affects indirect magic--like the acid conjured by an Orb of Acid--just doesn't make sense.


Wizards need to be toned down; frankly, if you really think wizards can tackle every encounter - and this is proper - you've got it wrong.
I think they can. I don't really think this is proper in that they can do that when others can't. I think everybody should be able to contribute to pretty much every encounter, even if it's to a lesser degree. I think a wizard contributing to a golem encounter by casting Solid Fog or Orb of Force or Silent/Minor/Major Image is fair play.

ken-do-nim
2007-09-10, 08:56 PM
I'm happy to see how this thread has turned out. Thanks for the kind words Saph, and I think that wizards can absolutely contribute to any battle, even if their spells don't directly affect the foe. Solid fog and illusions have been mentioned, but also good ol' buff spells always pay off, as well as summoning monsters (which if you can't tell is just about my absolute favorite thing to do).


I ban Wizards right off (as well as clerics and druids). Just call the sorcerer a wizard and the favored soul a cleric, and I haven't had any issues with players.


You'll note of course that my fixes pertain to sorcerers as well. Ray of enfeeblement and ray of stupidity and just about ray of anything are just as broken for sorcerers.



For the massive moving of elements to evocation - I agree, although I disagree to the whole addition of SR to them. That was one of the few things that gave blasting an edge over most spells.


One thing that I see a lot of in 3E design is an over-emphasis on game balance and an under-emphasis on logic.

Game designer: Gee, people are complaining that damage spells suck. Let's add some conjuration damage spells that don't require SR.
Logic: Can somebody please tell me how a wizard can manifest an orb of energy or force in his palm, fling it at a foe, and somehow SR is bypassed? We don't need this thread to explore this issue; the last one did, but suffice it to say I won't be convinced that the orb spells are anything but evocation from a logic point of view, and there's no way in heck they are hurting golems.

Besides, for those of you concerned about bypassing SR, arcane mastery + spell penetration is generally an automatic win as most tough CR foes have party's level + 12 for SR. [In my feat fixes document, I moved arcane mastery up to an epic feat]. Seriously, I want SR to be an important part of a foe's defense. It's way too easy to get around with all the splat books (assay spell resistance, orb spells, arcane mastery, that divine feat that raises caster level, etc.)



And I also agree with Thinker in that you should probably try to look towards the cause rather than the effect, for most of these. What you did with polymorph is a good start (still unfortunately allows broken-ness, but it did subtle it down).


I'm not looking to make major changes. My house rules goal is to always be able to pick up a published module and use the stats nearly as is.



For your summoning rules: And what occurs if you summon multiple creatures with per day abilities and have them each using sometimes the same ones, sometimes different ones? Then later on you summon another - which summoning does it go by?

I'm not sure I understand the question, but I'll give a detailed example anyway. Bob the wizard has memorized summon monster VII and summon monster VIII twice. He has an alliance with 3 avorals: Axel, Amos, and Abe.

In the first encounter of the day he casts summon monster VII and summons Axel. He has no chance to get the other two because Axel occupies the first slot, if you will, of avoral. Axel casts 2 of his 3 daily lightning bolts.

In the second encounter of the day, Bob casts summon monster VIII. He rolls for 1d3 avorals, getting a 2, so Axel and Amos re-appear. Axel still only has one lightning bolt remaining, but Amos of course still has 3/3. In this fight, tragically, Axel is reduced to 0 hit points, and is gone for the rest of the day. Amos uses up all 3 of his lightning bolts.

In the third encounter of the day, Bob casts his second summon monster VIII. Again he decides on avorals (maybe he really needs the lightning bolts!) and rolls a 1d3. If he rolls a 1, he gets nothing. Axel is done for the day. If he rolls a 2 he gets Amos, but Amos is out of lightning bolts. If he manages to roll a 3, he'll get Amos and Abe.

Does that make sense? It is explained, but perhaps in not as much detail, in a sidebar in the DMG.


There are a few spells not on the list which probably should be, like the Celerity line and the second useage of Gate. Generally, these look like good house rules to me (though there's no way my group could be bothered to learn them).

- Saph

Thanks; I'll check out those spells.

Morty
2007-09-11, 09:00 AM
I'd add Teleport line of spellls, Glitterdust, Rope Trick and Wall of Iron to the to-be-nerfed list. Teleportation spells are horribly written and allow wizard to just pop out to safety when things turn out bad, not to mention traveling at big distances with single standard action or making castles irrelevant. Glitterdust is no-SR group-affecting Will-based dave-or-die, more powerful than vast majority os 2nd level spells. Rope Trick is a joke, it allows wizard and his whole group to rest safely in the middle of dungeon inhabited by demons or other pleasant place. Issue Wall of Iron is the same as with Wall of Stone.
Otherwise, good and reasonable summary. Although I don't know if Ray of clumsiness/Enfeeblement are really overpowered.