Poll: What would the NPC do? Scenario 3.5

[Idares]

So I have a scenario and want to know what you would do had you been the NPC with average intelligence in the situation.

You are in combat and your foe glares at you, you decide to charge him as a full round action. As you reach him with your weapon held high he reactively, what seems to you, casts a spell and suddenly there are two of him, one behind you and one in front of you.

Who do you attack? The one you initially charged or the one that appeared suddenly to your back?

I will explain what took place here later, but first I want your opinions on what the NPC would do.

[zlefin]

I'm guessing most npcs would attack the one they were already going toward.

it also seems somewhat moot, as the charge action doesn't allow you to change the target. so from a rules perspective the attack has to go forward at the initial target (and if it can't the action is just wasted)

[BowStreetRunner]

As much as my first instinct is that the spell wouldn't have been cast if it left the caster in the path of the charge, I think that an NPC with average intelligence in the midst of a charge isn't going to have time to think it fully through and then come up with a way to alter his target. Continue with the charge ahead and just be prepared to deal with the guy behind as the situation develops.

[Nifft]

I don't think there's anything the NPC can do other than attack the (image of the) original target.

I think the target PC used some kind of interrupt action, but apparently the interrupt didn't invalidate the NPC's action. Therefore the NPC's action resolves as normal.

[Idares]

Indeed, he uses the Flee the Scene ability as a Warlock. So he summons an illusion where he stands and then dimension door in behind the charger.

He stets a ready action to do this as a standard action, trigger being when opponent comes within 10ft or so.

[DeTess]

Assuming this is Mooky McMookface #5 with no prior knowledge of his opponent, he'd strike at his initial target. A more skilled fighter that's either highly paranoid and perceptive, or knows about this PC's tricks, might want to strike at the image appearing behind him. Whether the rules allow him to do so is another thing.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

When a random NPC is charging he's probably not looking behind himself. So unless this is specifically like a monk with near-mystical senses or something, the charge continues.

If this is a monk with near supernatural senses he'll probably attack the one behind him, with a backflip.

[Grand Poobah]

You have already declared your action , to charge the warlock. Unless you have an ability that lets you change your action while performing it, you must resolve your stated action. If the charger were able to get a full attack on a charge, he could swing at the illusion, get a will save for interaction, that might reveal the deception and allow the fighter to attack the real warlock in some manner.

[DeTess]

You have already declared your action , to charge the warlock. Unless you have an ability that lets you change your action while performing it, you must resolve your stated action. If the charger were able to get a full attack on a charge, he could swing at the illusion, get a will save for interaction, that might reveal the deception and allow the fighter to attack the real warlock in some manner.

By that reasoning, wouldn't the character automatically attack the 'real' warlock? that's his stated target after all, and the stated target is also still within melee range at the end of the charge. Attacking the illusion would involve changing the target, as the illusion wasn't there when he made the charge.

I don't think you want to reason this one out using RAW.

[Bronk]

Indeed, he uses the Flee the Scene ability as a Warlock. So he summons an illusion where he stands and then dimension door in behind the charger.

He stets a ready action to do this as a standard action, trigger being when opponent comes within 10ft or so.

Yeah... story-wise, the NPC should probably stick with the original target. It's simpler that way.

If you cared to play the NPC tactically, or if it were a PC instead... the warlock waited too long, and only cast his spell when the charger was right next to him, making his square threatened, so the charger also gets an attack of opportunity against the warlock! That might even prevent the invocation in the first place, and would be automatic. Then the charger would get a will save against the illusion, and would then get to choose which one to attack.

[Grand Poobah]

By that reasoning, wouldn't the character automatically attack the 'real' warlock? that's his stated target after all, and the stated target is also still within melee range at the end of the charge. Attacking the illusion would involve changing the target, as the illusion wasn't there when he made the charge.

I don't think you want to reason this one out using RAW.

Why not? The fighter doesn’t know which is the illusion unless he can detect it e.g. via true seeing, before interacting with it.

The fighter declared and started a charge. He doesn’t get to change his mind, while literally in the middle of performing the charge, because the warlock readied an action to specifically protect himself from the charge.

Also, what you are suggesting is that if you simply state who you intend to attack, regardless of what efforts your target takes to mitigate your assault e.g. mirror image, blur, invisibility etc, they don’t matter, you hit the target regardless.

[TheStranger]

Seems like the NPC should (and must) continue his charge. That's how I read the charge rules, anyway. Besides, I'm having trouble picturing how you turn around in the middle of a charge to attack somebody behind you. That seems kind of against the spirit of an action that requires you to move straight ahead at full speed.

From a metagame perspective, this also seems eminently fair - the target has readied an action specifically to deal with this situation, using an appropriate ability. Why wouldn't he get the benefit of that readied action?

[Deophaun]

You have already declared your action , to charge the warlock. Unless you have an ability that lets you change your action while performing it, you must resolve your stated action.
There is nothing in the rules about declaring actions. There is no declaration phase of combat. You are never under any obligation to continue doing what you said you are doing just because you said you were going to do it. The only thing that comes close is a readied action, which this is not.

[DeTess]

Why not? The fighter doesn’t know which is the illusion unless he can detect it e.g. via true seeing, before interacting with it.

The fighter declared and started a charge. He doesn’t get to change his mind, while literally in the middle of performing the charge, because the warlock readied an action to specifically protect himself from the charge.

Also, what you are suggesting is that if you simply state who you intend to attack, regardless of what efforts your target takes to mitigate your assault e.g. mirror image, blur, invisibility etc, they don’t matter, you hit the target regardless.

I am, in fact, stating the opposite: that if you use the rules as you describe them, where you have to attack the target you declared you where going to attack(which I disagree with), any method of misdirection involving spawning multiple distractions will fail to work as those where not your declared target.

It makes far more sense to rule these situations on a case-by-case basis depending on the circumstances. Sure, the mook will pretty much be guaranteed to be fooled the first time, maybe even the second time. If he lives to see it happen a third time though, he's going to stab the guy behind him.

[Techwarrior]

Indeed, he uses the Flee the Scene ability as a Warlock. So he summons an illusion where he stands and then dimension door in behind the charger.

He stets a ready action to do this as a standard action, trigger being when opponent comes within 10ft or so.

First: Why has the warlock's Flee the Scene left them in melee range of the charger? This question is completely irrelevant if the warlock just Doors 25 ft behind the fighter instead of within reach.

Second: The fighter has declared the Charge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#charge) action. Line of Sight being 360 aside, if you're asking for RAI, the fighter has decidedly ignored everything around them (-2 AC) to recklessly charge their intended target. I would say that unless the fighter has any ability to detect the illusion for what it is, they must attack their originally intended target. To their senses, nothing has changed that they know of in the heat of battle.

If they had pounce, and Save to Disbelieve upon interacting with their first attack, I would allow them to continue their full attack elsewhere. This is how I believe you should be adjudicating the invocation because it specifically refers to the duplicate as a Major Image, thus providing all sensory information.



Note they are not allowed to charge the warlocks new space because of the following:


First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent.

The 'closest space' was somewhere behind them along the line that they charged through. The rules of a charge basically prohibit you from attacking a square that isn't 'forward' in the line of your charge.

[DeTess]

The 'closest space' was somewhere behind them along the line that they charged through. The rules of a charge basically prohibit you from attacking a square that isn't 'forward' in the line of your charge.

I might be missing something, but how is the charger not in the closest square if the warlock teleports the moment the charger reaches them? It might not be the closest space from his starting point, but I believe that stopped to be relevant the moment the charger left that spot.

The reason I keep arguing against the idea that the charger wouldn't be able to attack the real warlock is that I find it very strange that someone would be stopped by the rules from attacking their intended target if they know about their teleporting trick. Hitting the illusion when its the first time it happens is very logical, but I don't understand why a more expert warrior that knows about the trick would be stopped from striking at the target they believe is the real warlock while it is in within melee range.

[Techwarrior]

There are rules for that. The fighter declared an action. Charge Opponent in space A.

Opponent does a thing. They have not visibly moved from their space. If the fighter has no means of ignoring or otherwise making a Save to Disbelieve the illusion, then they must complete said action. The double is irrelevant at this point. They declared an action, their action is still legal. QED, they perform their stated action.

If they have already seen this sequence of events, it is within the DM's right's to give them a Will save to disbelieve as if they had interacted with the illusion. Otherwise, see the following (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#illusion):


Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.

[Bronk]

The 'closest space' was somewhere behind them along the line that they charged through. The rules of a charge basically prohibit you from attacking a square that isn't 'forward' in the line of your charge.

That's the weird thing about how 3.5 deals with charges... First you move, then you stop, then you attack. It would be different if the NPC were using 'overrun', which would just blow past the warlock.

[Elkad]

If I'm the charger?

I can't interrupt my own Charge, but I still have control over what I do at the end of it. So I finish my charge with a Bull Rush - attempting to drive my (original location) opponent back to the limit of my movement.

That both determines if the guy in front of me is still real, and could get me out of a potential flanking box if they are both real.

Next round I'll move normally or Sudden Leap or something so he can't do that again.


Since Flee the Scene specifically reacts to the attack, I'll get to push it back even if I fail the save I just earned.

[Deophaun]

Note they are not allowed to charge the warlocks new space because of the following:
That doesn't prevent them, because it is merely the closest space, not the closest space from the charger's starting position. It's always measured from the charger's current position.

The thing that stops the charge is this:

Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge.
The Warlock himself is now in a line from the starting position blocking movement to the ending space, so the charge can't happen.

[Bronk]

The Warlock himself is now in a line from the starting position blocking movement to the ending space, so the charge can't happen.

That didn't count, though, because the space wasn't blocked when the NPC moved through it. The warlock isn't retroactively changing the NPC's past actions.

[Deophaun]

That didn't count, though, because the space wasn't blocked when the NPC moved through it.
Doesn't matter. RAW, there is no "when you move through it" clause. You could conjure difficult terrain between the starting position and the charging character and spoil the charge, because the charging rules are that poorly written. There are lots of weird interactions you can have simply because the game designers decided to explicitly define what it means to have a clear path so that phrase does not actually mean what it would normally mean in standard English. (Literally: "Here’s what it means to have a clear path;" once that's included, what you thought that meant in English no longer matters)

[DeTess]

Doesn't matter. RAW, there is no "when you move through it" clause. You could conjure difficult terrain between the starting position and the charging character and spoil the charge, because the charging rules are that poorly written. There are lots of weird interactions you can have simply because the game designers decided to explicitly define what it means to have a clear path so that phrase does not actually mean what it would normally mean in standard English. (Literally: "Here’s what it means to have a clear path;" once that's included, what you thought that meant in English no longer matters)

So do you allow people to prevent a charger from attacking by putting something in the chargers path after the charger has passed in games you DM?

[Bronk]

So do you allow people to prevent a charger from attacking by putting something in the chargers path after the charger has passed in games you DM?

Right? I agree... it's too late, the dude's already done the charging part of the charge and no one got in his way. All that's left is deciding who to stab.

[Deophaun]

So do you allow people to prevent a charger from attacking by putting something in the chargers path after the charger has passed in games you DM?
Yes. I have a soft spot for the utter insanity of how charging is written. I embrace the madness.

[Vertharrad]

From what I understand - warlock "stares" at beatstick and makes a readied action to Flee the Scene to behind the attacker when they get within 10 ft. Beatstick then feeling antagonized charges the warlock. when he gets within 10 ft. of said warlock the warlock's readied action goes off and he "teleports"(after an image of him takes his place) behind the beatstick in the process of charging. Beatstick continues his charge since he's already committed and either attacks his original target or doesn't(if he doesn't attack the original target it is a wasted charge seeing how I do believe charge is full-round). The warlock is still out of melee with the beatstick unless beatstick is using a reach weapon or other means of increasing his reach.

IMHO the beatstick attacks the image, anything after will be up to the player or DM(in the case of the beatstick being a npc).