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Kotch
2018-07-12, 09:21 AM
In an evil region or country, what is the motivation for people to follow evil gods? I get the whole worshiping-out-of-fear thing and the idea of appeasement, but are there any other models of society where the general population follow evil gods willingly?

So in this instance I'm playing 3.5 D&D but this could apply to any RPG. My campaign is based on medieval Britain in the late 14th Century. I'm using the specific aristocracy who were around at the time with the country divided up into counties. (There is a massive amount of information on Wikipedia for this and using the names of the actual Duke of Watsit really gives flavour to the campaign. With the turmoil that happens in this time just before the Wars of the Roses it's a great setting.) I've divided the counties into three alignments, most are neutrally aligned with some specifically good and some specifically evil (75% of the country is neutral so there are just small pockets of good and evil). The players havn't been told this. The cathedrals and churches are then allocated to gods taken from the 3.5 PHB.

So here's the thing... Some evil gods, such as Nerull, only seem to lend themselves to secret cults. If you look through the list of gods in 3.5 PHB none of them seem to be the sort of gods any population would openly worship. For example Hextor is all very well as a god if you are warrior, but what does everyone else do? The same can be said of Vecna and Erythnul. Who is going to worship Gruumsh apart from orcs?

The idea of secret cults seems okay, but if you want to have your world divided up into regions where good gods hold sway in one place and evil gods hold sway in another place (with an uneasy peace between the three alignments - no evil areas border directly onto good areas so the neutral regions are the buffer) who are the general (non-secret) temples that people pray to and why? Of course, this question could apply to different alignment regions of World of Greyhawk or Faerûn or wherever.

Keltest
2018-07-12, 09:44 AM
At the end of the day, it all would come back to power. Power over your enemies, your friends, your subjects, coworkers, life, death, whatever. Fundamentally, you want something, and you believe that this evil deity will give it to you or help you get it if you worship them.

I remember in one story I read, a thief worshipped the goddess of bad luck, and her prayers were all about turning her attention onto the people who would get in her way and away from herself. And sometimes it would work for her. Torches would go out unexpectedly, animals would start causing a ruckus somewhere else, things like that.

So pick a god who's portfolio would be beneficial to your group of people, either helping them directly or hindering people they don't get along with, and figure that even if they aren't doing anything directly, the people who worship them will be likely to attribute anything going the way they want it to go to that deity.

hamishspence
2018-07-12, 09:46 AM
At the end of the day, it all would come back to power. Power over your enemies, your friends, your subjects, coworkers, life, death, whatever. Fundamentally, you want something, and you believe that this evil deity will give it to you or help you get it if you worship them.

I remember in one story I read, a thief worshipped the goddess of bad luck, and her prayers were all about turning her attention onto the people who would get in her way and away from herself. And sometimes it would work for her. Torches would go out unexpectedly, animals would start causing a ruckus somewhere else, things like that.

Sounds like Tymora's Luck. They were only a "one chapter minor character" but everything fits:


"Lady Doom, pass me by, kiss my enemies."

Keltest
2018-07-12, 09:47 AM
Sounds like Tymora's Luck. They were only a "one chapter minor character" but everything fits:


"Lady Doom, pass me by, kiss my enemies."

That would be it, yes!

Knaight
2018-07-12, 09:49 AM
The other option is just people convincing themselves that the gods are just fine. I'm thinking a nice splash of Divine Command Morality - good is whatever the god says it is, therefore the god can't be evil. Done and done.

Segev
2018-07-12, 10:23 AM
Why do people join gangs, or tyrannical regimes in countries ruled by such?

Power. Protection. Power. Money. Power. Indulgence in vices. Power. Enabling vices. Power.

Did I mention power?

People worship evil gods because those gods promise them rewards. Power over their enemies. Power to take what they want. Some also provide justification (usually a "might makes right" deal, but there's also racism and other tools for justifying why you deserve what the god promises more than those the god directs you to take it from).

Evil gods tend to promise temporal rewards, which are ultimately more tangible than the hypothetical "wonderful afterlife" that good gods promise (and more tangible than the "afterlife of torment" that the good gods insist the evil gods have in store for their followers). Not to mention that followers of evil gods who are concerned with the afterlife have a "better to rule in hell" attitude, and convince themselves that they'll be high up the hierarchy, abusing their power over other foolish souls, not low down on it being tormented.

Evil gods also promise those temporal rewards and justify and encourage taking it from others, which is always easier than producing it for oneself. And if your desires aren't something you can get at all - perhaps that beautiful woman spurns you, or the estate you want belongs to somebody who will not sell at any price - then the evil god will be more than happy to let you (and may well help you) TAKE it for yourself, regardless of the wishes or rights of anybody else.

Honest Tiefling
2018-07-12, 10:36 AM
If I join a good cult, I have to be a good person. I have to be kind, compassionate, and charitable. I have to be willing to defend my fellows, be it legally, financially or physically. A part of my time would have to be spent working to improve life for others.

However, the evil god down the street is willing to get me a good afterlife and no harassment in exchange for a baby! That's a pretty good deal.

A bit exaggerated, but I imagine that reaping some of the rewards of some evil religions would either be seen as being easier or faster than trying to be morally good...Especially when you can measure goodness and realize that your life hasn't really tipped you over to the good side of the scale. I can see many evil gods being far more results focused than worried about the state of your soul.

Anymage
2018-07-12, 10:45 AM
Getting back to your main question, you're right. The followings of most evil gods do not scale well up to organized religion status. Then again, many nonevil faiths also scale poorly. Ehlonna is the matron of sylvan creatures, and people who live in the forest won't have the population density or coordination that makes cities and citydwellers into bigger fish.

Many evil D&D faiths are designed to provide cults that the heroes can root out, instead of being massive religious organizations. You can create evil faiths that people still pray to because they cover important nonevil domains as well. (The sea may be capricious and selfish, but sailors are still going to hedge their bets and offer a few prayers before a voyage anyways.) You can create evil versions of good faiths by having people appreciate the darker sides of neutral gods. (A god of commerce could have followers from all across the alignment spectrum, but good-dominant churches would look very different from evil-dominant areas.) And there's room for a few justifiable "I do bad things because the alternative is worse" evil deities*. But the greyhawk deities don't mesh well with trying to make organized religion a major force in your campaign.

*(One day when I feel like creating my own faiths, I really need an archdevil fallen paladin who to this day insists that he's one of those "greater good/I do bad things so that worse things don't happen" types.)

Honest Tiefling
2018-07-12, 10:57 AM
*(One day when I feel like creating my own faiths, I really need an archdevil fallen paladin who to this day insists that he's one of those "greater good/I do bad things so that worse things don't happen" types.)

Not going to name examples, but some real life religions did some...Questionable...Things in the name of the greater good. If the archdevil has a VERY good argument for why only they can hold back the hoards of the Abyss, you could easily give him a very genuine reason for his belief.

For a while I was toying with a goddess of the sea that was very much inclined to destroy sailors who didn't worship her, but also upkept the afterlife and a peaceful journey for the dead. So few paladins would be inclined to smite her temples without good reason, both from fear of her wrath and because she did keep undead from appearing. he got followers as they either saw the benefit of making sure souls didn't get lost, or because her temples had power due to said concern.

GrayDeath
2018-07-12, 11:10 AM
On Faerun because one is evil and the alternative (Wall) is much worse. THe best of all reasons, really. If you ARE evil, good gods wont accept you (and most neutrals neither), and to avoid the Wall doing just about anything is worth it in some way.


D&D in general: because the "Bad" Afterlife is something appealing to you.
because you like the power they give you.
Because they primised you revenge on "enter X", wo is protected by Good Gods.


In General Fantasy:

Power.







Power. (^^)
Revenge.
Cool Toys.
Dominion over others.


Fun.

Honest Tiefling
2018-07-12, 11:13 AM
The best of all reasons, really. If you ARE evil, good gods wont accept you (and most neutrals neither), and to avoid the Wall doing just about anything is worth it in some way.

Yeah, and I imagine those neutrals (like Silvanus) who have accepted evil worshipers in certain editions are going to be expecting some serious life changes in order to take you away from painful torture and then oblivion. Lots of neutral gods probably aren't big on letting you do your own thing especially with Ao breathing down their necks about 'true' followers.

Anymage
2018-07-12, 11:20 AM
Not going to name examples, but some real life religions did some...Questionable...Things in the name of the greater good. If the archdevil has a VERY good argument for why only they can hold back the hoards of the Abyss, you could easily give him a very genuine reason for his belief.

The Miko who thinks that doing things in the name of Good gives them moral carte blanche has been done before. It's an option. But I do have a particular soft spot for the "I willingly accept my fall, even my damnation, if it allows innocents to maintain their lives, happiness, and virtue" archetype.

Darth Ultron
2018-07-12, 11:24 AM
People worship evil gods because they are evil and believe in the gods religious views. Really, the same reason anyone worships any god.

As you can see in any society, there is a mix of good and evil and neutral.

Nerull has secret cults in good societies, he likes to be the 'secret darkness' at the heart of such societies. AND has no problem finding worshipers in such a place: A powerful attractant for those seeking might and influence without scruples. Politicians, businesspersons, merchants, con men, thugs, killers and murderers all worship Nerull. Take a list of evil fictional folks that could follow Nerull: Gordon Gekko(Wall Street), Obadiah Stane (Iron Man), or Godfather(any, pick one). The Klingon society is a good Nerull society: they approve of death (we'd say murder) at the drop of a eye.
Hextor is very much focused on warriors, and again would make a great god for a Klingon like society.

Everyone does not worship just one evil god, the same way no everyone in a good society worships only one good god.
Evil fictional societies:
The Empire and the First Order and the Sith (Star Wars), e Klingons as orcs,the Cardassians and the Romulans(Star Trek), Ori and the Goa'uld (Stargate),

Stargate, with the Ori in seasons 9 and 10, area a great fictional example of an evil society. There are a couple good episodes that show a ''normal life of folks", in an evil society.

Honest Tiefling
2018-07-12, 11:26 AM
The Miko who thinks that doing things in the name of Good gives them moral carte blanche has been done before. It's an option. But I do have a particular soft spot for the "I willingly accept my fall, even my damnation, if it allows innocents to maintain their lives, happiness, and virtue" archetype.

I was speaking more of a god who does evil because they have seen plenty of reason to perform such acts, not that they are genuinely deluded or crazy. There might be alternatives, but when you have issues like the Far Realm or the Abyss hanging around, I imagine some might decide to sacrifice a few people here and there to get things done.

I haven't seen that approach with the standard DnD settings, but I would be curious if there was a campaign setting with gods of necessary evil, not jerk-evil or deluded-evil.

Braininthejar2
2018-07-12, 02:34 PM
On Faerun because one is evil and the alternative (Wall) is much worse.

And even without the wall - if you're evil, and going to hell either way, it is much better to go there as an eternal slave to Set (with a chance to climb in the pecking order as new souls arrive) than to go there as an anonymous soul ripe for the picking by whichever devil finds it first.

RocksInMyDryer
2018-07-12, 02:56 PM
Keep in mind that Zarus, the first man and creator of humankind is a Lawful Evil deity. Of course, he's basically D&D's Hitler, but I could see people following him just because he's the creator of their race.

Vinyadan
2018-07-12, 03:52 PM
Pazuzu is evil, right? You worship it to become Pun-Pun.

I'm guessing that many people who are evil find it pretty cool to have a god that not only is OK with your actions, but will also endorse them and reward you for them.

JoeJ
2018-07-12, 04:00 PM
Because if you deny them the worship they think they're due they'll go all Maleficent and curse your whole kingdom.

Segev
2018-07-12, 04:08 PM
Because if you deny them the worship they think they're due they'll go all Maleficent and curse your whole kingdom.

<Maleficent> Everybody always says they want "a fairy-tale wedding," but when I show up to curse their firstborn, suddenly I'm the bad guy.

SimonMoon6
2018-07-12, 04:13 PM
In an evil region or country, what is the motivation for people to follow evil gods? I get the whole worshiping-out-of-fear thing and the idea of appeasement, but are there any other models of society where the general population follow evil gods willingly?

Because those evil gods have the same sense of morality as the evil people do.

"Kill all the people who aren't like us," says the evil god.

"That sounds like a good idea," says the evil population.

"Make up excuses to kill any woman who is ever seen near a cat," says the god. "You can call her a witch. And obviously witches need to die."

"Yeah, that sounds like fun," says the evil population. "Being misogynistic to the point of murder is pretty cool."

"Also, anyone who wears a head scarf? Kill them. Unless you like wearing a head scarf, in which case, kill anybody who does NOT wear a head scarf," says the god.

"What a great idea," says the evil population. "But can we go further? I'm suspicious and scared of people who live in a country to the south."

"I have an idea," says the evil god. "Why don't you, oh, I don't know... kill them?"

"Yes, yes, what a great idea!" says the evil population. "You are the best god ever. You have the best words."

Pleh
2018-07-12, 04:34 PM
I forget where, but I remember RAW stating somewhere that evil deities are sometimes worshipped to placate them.

So true followers, yeah, they're insane and power hungry and their association with the evil god will more likely ruin them than profit.

But some more neutral to goodish creatures might give *just enough* reverence to keep themselves out of the deity's crosshairs (this works better with some deities than others).

I kind of am reminded of Batman Arkham Asylum, where batman can overhear some of Joker's goons talking about their experience with Joker. One of the goons said Joker told him to kill his sister, so he did to avoid angering Joker. Another goon said he had the same experience, but he didn't have a sister. He tried to explain to Joker, but Joker kept repeating the command, so the goon just killed the next random woman he saw. It seemed to satisfy Joker.

Braininthejar2
2018-07-12, 04:51 PM
So true followers, yeah, they're insane and power hungry and their association with the evil god will more likely ruin them than profit.

But some more neutral to goodish creatures might give *just enough* reverence to keep themselves out of the deity's crosshairs (this works better with some deities than others).

“Most of the members of the convent were old-fashioned Satanists, like their parents and grandparents before them. They'd been brought up to it, and weren't, when you got right down to it, particularly evil. Human beings mostly aren't. They just get carried away by new ideas, like dressing up in jackboots and shooting people, or dressing up in white sheets and lynching people, or dressing up in tie-dye jeans and playing guitars at people. Offer people a new creed with a costume and their hearts and minds will follow. Anyway, being brought up as a Satanist tended to take the edge off it. It was something you did on Saturday nights.

And the rest of the time you simply got on with life as best you could, just like everyone else.”

Dawgmoah
2018-07-12, 04:52 PM
Many people on here are saying power: I would say self-interest. The path to power can be considered easier through evil. No morality to follow, others have no rights (unless a lawful evil society. The general population can be considered cattle to be bartered, traded, sacrificed, or just trampled into extinction for the sheer joy of it.

Thrudd
2018-07-12, 04:58 PM
Soooo...part of this is an issue of misunderstanding polytheism and how a cosmology with many gods works. Based on the way they are described, as having domain over certain specific things -activities-regions- in the universe, the D&D gods do not represent a series of different competing religions. In this interpretation, all of them are necessary and integral to the functioning of the universe. Different times of year and different activities demand calling on different gods - everyone might worship almost every god at the appropriate time. So a temple and clerics are there to make sure the god's rituals are performed appropriately and to pass on things the god wants people to know. But you don't have people who only worship the god of the sea - they worship at the sea god's temple before they go on a sea voyage, and during the god's particular holy day. When someone is sick, they go to the healing god's temple. On the day when it is appointed for the uneasy dead to wander, they go to the temple of the death god, and pray that he not harm them, and when someone dies they make offerings to him so the dead person may stay at rest. You can have a special connection or a favorite god that you pray to the most, but there aren't religions for each different god - it is all one religion that believes in all the gods. Evil people will tend to ask favors of the evil gods the most, because those gods rule over the sort of things they like - getting power at other's expense, getting revenge, bloody slaughter, etc.

However, you could envision the set-up as one of Good vs Evil, but then you should picture two (or three) competing pantheons. Maybe the neutral gods are those of natural things, like the sea and the harvest and death, and they are going to be around no matter what and don't take sides. But the good gods and evil gods are equal and opposite counterparts to one another, who are fighting to determine the destiny of sentient beings. The evil gods would likely promise their followers positions of power and wealth in return for helping them win the divine war. Kingdoms that are ruled by someone who has aligned with the evil gods will probably have a brutal or oppressive regime - a small number of the most powerful people are the ones getting the benefits from worshipping the evil gods, and they force everyone under their power to worship as well, through force and fear and coercive legal practices.
Kingdoms aligned with the good gods will have kindly rulers that seek the benefit of all, and the gods will have their representatives helping and being charitable and healing the people to encourage them to worship. The rulers give the good gods credit for the benefits that come from their beneficent style of rule, and encourage everyone to worship them so the benefits can increase.

Segev
2018-07-12, 05:24 PM
Okay, if you're just asking why people would make signs and offerings to evil gods in the "please spare me your wrath" sort of respectful obeisance, that works.

But I get the feeling the question was more along the lines of why people join their particular cults, sects, clergy, etc.

Honest Tiefling
2018-07-12, 05:27 PM
Because those evil gods have the same sense of morality as the evil people do.

"Kill all the people who aren't like us," says the evil god.

"That sounds like a good idea," says the evil population.

"Make up excuses to kill any woman who is ever seen near a cat," says the god. "You can call her a witch. And obviously witches need to die."

"Yeah, that sounds like fun," says the evil population. "Being misogynistic to the point of murder is pretty cool."

"Also, anyone who wears a head scarf? Kill them. Unless you like wearing a head scarf, in which case, kill anybody who does NOT wear a head scarf," says the god.

"What a great idea," says the evil population. "But can we go further? I'm suspicious and scared of people who live in a country to the south."

"I have an idea," says the evil god. "Why don't you, oh, I don't know... kill them?"

"Yes, yes, what a great idea!" says the evil population. "You are the best god ever. You have the best words."

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not, but history does show that when certain groups of people undergo extreme hardship, violence against minorities increases, sometimes...To a rather large extent. Having someone to blame for all of your misfortunes is a very tempting offer it would seem. Or just an excuse to take their stuff.

Darth Ultron
2018-07-12, 06:09 PM
But I get the feeling the question was more along the lines of why people join their particular cults, sects, clergy, etc.

Simply put, half of the world is evil and half of the world is good.

A typical ''good'' society, is full of evil: half the society is evil.

Kaptin Keen
2018-07-13, 01:56 AM
If you ask me - and why would you, but let's assume you did - I'd answer: They don't.

No one in the whole wide world wakes up one morning and decides 'what the world needs is just more murder all around'. Nerull doesn't have a single faithful believer ... anywhere.

There are two ways evil gods work:

Either their followers think they're good. Harsh circumstances breed harsh gods, and even if say Thor and Odin weren't super good by the standards of today, they were the gods of the vikings none the less (not that the vikings were super good by the standards of today either). Their followers would have said that they're the bestest gods.

Or, as someone said, you pay homage because it's a bad idea not to. You're crossing the ocean, and the god of the oceans is a cantankerous old bastard who'll sink your ship if you don't - you may not like him, but you pay the fee of passage because you like living more than pride.

So, coming back around, if you want to get away with murder, maybe you pay homage to Nerull. You're not a faithful believer, but it so happens you're someone who's decided someone else's life needs to end. Possibly you're an assassin, and you do this on a regular basis. But, remember - praying for more murder is not sane. Praying to get away with murder is (well, kind of - being an assassin isn't really a statement of perfect mental health either).

oxybe
2018-07-13, 04:34 AM
Because the good ones don't listen, or can't listen. Or can listen but not act.

Either way, you've offered a prayer and worship to Pelor and your lot in life hasn't gotten any better. Famine, thirst, disease are all prevalent ills. Bandits raid the weakened regularly and beasts run off with livestock.

Then comes to town a well-dressed man who smiles and offers a better life for you, your family and your loved ones. A small cost must be paid of course, but delivery of payment can wait. Just offer a prayer every now and then and we'll square off in, oh... 60 years or so.

Pretty good deal, eh? After all, I'm here to help when and where they refused to...

Spore
2018-07-13, 05:26 AM
If it would appease a Kraken god whose magic I have seen before when I pray to him for a safe voyage, I'd do it, heck I'd throw in a fiver to pay his clerics too. I think intimidation plays a bit part.

Bohandas
2018-07-13, 05:31 AM
I can think of three good reasons, (all of which oddly start with the letter P)

Power- the cult offers power that can't be gotten elsewhere. The dark side is more powerful if you don;t have 600 years to spend mastering the art of goodly magic

Propitiation - People make offerings to the god in hopes that they'll stay away.

Propaganda- People have been convinced that this god is beneficial. And before you say the detect good/detect evil spells make this not work you have to realize that the word good pulls double duty in the english language; it refers both to "beneficial/preferable" and "morally correct". This correspondence might not exist in other languages and in it's absence the implication that what is morally correct is preferable may be gone too (my headcanon is that the orcish word for something good in the sense of preferable translates more literally as "smashing").

It is particularly easy to confuse or conflate goodness and order; to the point where detect law might be seen as detecting good and detect evil would be seen as detecting sternnesss.

Or they might be truly seen as evil but as a necessary evil. Offhand I could give at least two examples of this from real world mythologies (but then Roland would yell at me so I won't)

Kotch
2018-07-13, 05:44 AM
Excellent responses one and all.
I agree with the points about power/self-interest, immediate gain or a desire not to suffer the depredations of a capricious sea/weather/harvest god.

However, I particularly liked the point made by Thrudd about polytheism. This is the way I see the gods in D&D so that most people would worship a number of gods and even clerics can have multiple gods so long as they are compatible. Offering prayers to the god of travel or harvest is much the same as Catholics offering prayers to saints and in that light Catholocism becomes more like a pantheon with the trinity at the top and the saints in the role of minor deities.

I also liked the point that Anymage made about many of these gods not scaling up well and I think this is my problem. Would Nerull have a cathedral because I read somewhere that many people wouldn’t want to draw attention to themselves from Nerull so one imagines that Nerull has small sects or individual worshipers. (Would you worship a death cult when death isn’t imminent? In medieval life, perhaps, death is always imminent. Some people have suggested that Christianity is a death cult focussed on the afterlife so perhaops Nerull might be seen in that way.) Having a cathedral to another evil god (because I need cathedrals in every county) such as Hextor, etc., gives me the same problem.

I use the basic PHB core gods because it’s easier for my players to pick from a list that’s easily available. However, I also include any other D&D gods listed in the reference sources (I usually go to the Wikipedia lists as it’s a good summary) so I’ll include gods that come from the Complete Divine, or other splat books by my approval. I might just have to find a more general evil god and promote that to a higher status.

Bohandas
2018-07-13, 06:05 AM
Because the good ones don't listen, or can't listen. Or can listen but not act.

Either way, you've offered a prayer and worship to Pelor and your lot in life hasn't gotten any better. Famine, thirst, disease are all prevalent ills. Bandits raid the weakened regularly and beasts run off with livestock.

Then comes to town a well-dressed man who smiles and offers a better life for you, your family and your loved ones. A small cost must be paid of course, but delivery of payment can wait. Just offer a prayer every now and then and we'll square off in, oh... 60 years or so.

Pretty good deal, eh? After all, I'm here to help when and where they refused to...

This exact scenario was a scene in the horror film Dagon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlZjWXr_p2k (warning: coarse language after the relevant bit)

Pleh
2018-07-13, 06:12 AM
Soooo...part of this is an issue of misunderstanding polytheism and how a cosmology with many gods works. Based on the way they are described, as having domain over certain specific things -activities-regions- in the universe, the D&D gods do not represent a series of different competing religions.

I actually disagree. I don't see the D&D pantheon depicted in this cooperative manner in the books with the only exception being the great wheel cosmology, which is related to, but separate from the pantheon. It seems like most of the standard D&D deities would happily eradicate half the pantheon and forever shift the balance of power over the material plane directly into their domain.

Deities do not comprise the great wheel, they're just the biggest players on that battleground and they happen to find themselves in a deific mexican standoff.

I really feel that the description of the gods in the phb makes it clear these gods are actively at war with one another and send their clerics to disrupt each other's goals. They are each trying to shift the balance of power into their own favor. This is not quite the atmosphere of, "everyone worships all the gods" you describe. There's really no reason to worship Gruumsh unless you like orcs and hate elves. Likewise, you don't really want heironeous and hextor to keep battling for supremacy. Most people just want hextor slain so the world can move on from tyranny.

You accurately describe the cosmology of the universe, sure. But you're off key with the pantheon. It's understandable to conflate them because usually a pantheonic structure is meant to be a cosmology, but this doesn't seem to be the case in D&D. In fact, recognizing the dichotomy between the pantheon and the cosmology might be the best argument in favor of religious neutrality: "I like that pelor wants to heal people, but if erythnul never slaughters anyone, the great wheel gets lopsided and the universe will lose its spin."

I can totally see druids advocating worship of the whole pantheon, since maintaining status quo is likely the easiest way to preserve the natural state of the cosmos. Meanwhile, the clerics and paladins want to "bring balance to the force" by helping their deities put an end to the deities that oppose their champion.

Bohandas
2018-07-13, 06:26 AM
I actually disagree. I don't see the D&D pantheon depicted in this cooperative manner in the books with the only exception being the great wheel cosmology, which is related to, but separate from the pantheon. It seems like most of the standard D&D deities would happily eradicate half the pantheon and forever shift the balance of power over the material plane directly into their domain.

Deities do not comprise the great wheel, they're just the biggest players on that battleground and they happen to find themselves in a deific mexican standoff.

I really feel that the description of the gods in the phb makes it clear these gods are actively at war with one another and send their clerics to disrupt each other's goals. They are each trying to shift the balance of power into their own favor. This is not quite the atmosphere of, "everyone worships all the gods" you describe.

Yes, but that doesn't dictate how everythinh actually works out in practice.

Also, in 3.5e at any rate, it's in the Player's Handbook pg 106, in the first paragraph under the heading "Religion"

"...The typical person has a deity whom he considers to be his patron. Still, it is only prudent to be respectful toward and even pray to other deities when the time is right. Before setting out on a journey, a follower of Pelor might leave a small sacrifice at a wayside shrine to Fharlanghn (god of roads) to improve his chances of having a safe journey. As long as one’s own deity is not at odds with the others in such an act of piety, such simple practices are common. In times of tribulation, however, some people recite dark prayers to evil deities. Such prayers are best muttered under one’s breath, lest others overhear..."

hamishspence
2018-07-13, 06:27 AM
"Nearly everyone worships all the gods, even if only in a "please don't do nasty things today" way"

is very much a Forgotten Realms thing, not a Greyhawk thing.

That said, as mentioned above,



"...The typical person has a deity whom he considers to be his patron. Still, it is only prudent to be respectful toward and even pray to other deities when the time is right. Before setting out on a journey, a follower of Pelor might leave a small sacrifice at a wayside shrine to Fharlanghn (god of roads) to improve his chances of having a safe journey. As long as one’s own deity is not at odds with the others in such an act of piety, such simple practices are common. In times of tribulation, however, some people recite dark prayers to evil deities. Such prayers are best muttered under one’s breath, lest others overhear..."



even Greyhawk has a bit of it. I think the biggest difference is that Faerunians don't even bother to mutter under their breath.

GentlemanVoodoo
2018-07-13, 07:44 AM
@op: it depends on what the god in question brings to the table. Like you pointed out, hextor is a evil warrior good but from 3.5 lore was one of the few evil God's openly worshiped because his church brought a stability to the region it was based in. Thus the view of evil Gods and an open wide worship of them should be taken in contact to what is offered to the society that adores them.

Segev
2018-07-13, 11:30 AM
If you ask me - and why would you, but let's assume you did - I'd answer: They don't.

No one in the whole wide world wakes up one morning and decides 'what the world needs is just more murder all around'. Nerull doesn't have a single faithful believer ... anywhere.

There are two ways evil gods work:

Either their followers think they're good. Harsh circumstances breed harsh gods, and even if say Thor and Odin weren't super good by the standards of today, they were the gods of the vikings none the less (not that the vikings were super good by the standards of today either). Their followers would have said that they're the bestest gods.

Or, as someone said, you pay homage because it's a bad idea not to. You're crossing the ocean, and the god of the oceans is a cantankerous old bastard who'll sink your ship if you don't - you may not like him, but you pay the fee of passage because you like living more than pride.

So, coming back around, if you want to get away with murder, maybe you pay homage to Nerull. You're not a faithful believer, but it so happens you're someone who's decided someone else's life needs to end. Possibly you're an assassin, and you do this on a regular basis. But, remember - praying for more murder is not sane. Praying to get away with murder is (well, kind of - being an assassin isn't really a statement of perfect mental health either).
Even if there are no officially-recognized and supported cults, I would think that Nerull might have a few priests dedicated to him. Men and women who, in turning to him for propitiation or to plead he stay his hand....or who are so bitter they turn to him to plead that he direct his attention on their enemies, might make up the bulk of them. And then, of course, there are simply the mad, the nihilistic. "The world sucks, and everything would be better if everything died. I dedicate myself to you, Nerull, because you share my bleak view and might give me power to bring it about."

Beleriphon
2018-07-13, 12:35 PM
@op: it depends on what the god in question brings to the table. Like you pointed out, hextor is a evil warrior good but from 3.5 lore was one of the few evil God's openly worshiped because his church brought a stability to the region it was based in. Thus the view of evil Gods and an open wide worship of them should be taken in contact to what is offered to the society that adores them.

Hextor's church is more like that totalitarian state with a dictator at the top. They keep things stable, more or less, but they aren't exactly nice about how they do it. Because they keep things more or less stable, and because they aren't openly antagonistic to other regions merchants are willing to trade with them and travel there without fear to reprisal. I suppose the best non-real world example would be Caesar's Legion in Fallout: New Vegas. In many ways an actively worshipped in the open Evil deity needs to be based on a cult of personality model. There are several examples you can draw from in the last 150 years if you want a good model about how to do it. My go to for D&D lawful evil based on personality and approach to how to handle the masses below is Stalin.

Darth Ultron
2018-07-13, 12:55 PM
Either their followers think they're good.

This type of thinking is not present in D&D. No one in the D&D universe ''thinks'' they are anything, they simply are something. Good and evil are set cosmic concepts. Depending on what a person does, and how they live their life, determines what alignment they are. If a person does x and believes in X, then they are X. It is that simple.

Each god represents a spin on each alignment. Different lanes on the same road.

If a character thinks that they can simply kill anyone anytime for any reason, what a ''good'' person would call murder, then they are an evil person. They will likely choose to worship a god like Nerull.

But you do get the word confusion. ''Murder'' is a word based on a Good Only Worldview: to ''just kill'' is wrong. But there is no decent word for ''just kill''.

Kaptin Keen
2018-07-13, 01:01 PM
Even if there are no officially-recognized and supported cults, I would think that Nerull might have a few priests dedicated to him. Men and women who, in turning to him for propitiation or to plead he stay his hand....or who are so bitter they turn to him to plead that he direct his attention on their enemies, might make up the bulk of them. And then, of course, there are simply the mad, the nihilistic. "The world sucks, and everything would be better if everything died. I dedicate myself to you, Nerull, because you share my bleak view and might give me power to bring it about."

I simply don't agree that there is any statistically significant number of people to draw those devoted worshippers from. Which in turn makes it unconvincing as a villain motivation. And this, in turn, makes for a very bad 'divine entity design' - so to speak - since how did he become a god if no one (except that one statistically unlikely guy) gives a damn about him?

To me, it's just stupid. On behalf of the designers, not pointing any fingers at anyone here - not even the ones who love Nerull, I'm well aware I'm the crazy minority here =)

For the pantheons I use, there's generally a massive number of random major and minor gods - I never care enough to fluff them out, any god the players particularly care about they can fluff themselves. I realise I'm locking myself out from anything divine as a major plot devise. Lots of gods, generally summed up by the Ankh, the 'none of us care about the clear specifics of any one religion' holy symbol. All of them are 'good'. -Ish.

There are nine other gods. Their names are secret. They have no churches. They have no real worshippers. Instead, you can trade with them. If you can learn their names, and make them listen. This, of course, is not recommended.

So, you want to do something really shady - maybe you're really out of your debth, but you really need revenge against the noble that killed your family and burned down your home? If you're motivated enough, maybe you can find out the name of the least of the nine. And maybe you'll be able to provide something that's worth it for him to help you.

No player has ever pursued this path, so I know only the name of the first one. I don't do any of the work until I have to, of course =)

Erit
2018-07-13, 01:04 PM
And there's room for a few justifiable "I do bad things because the alternative is worse" evil deities*. But the greyhawk deities don't mesh well with trying to make organized religion a major force in your campaign.

Wee Jas. Lawful Evil goddess of the Lawful Undead, who is apparently a valid Paladin goddess if we go by RKV's multiclassing note, who I am convinced is only registered as Evil because all Undead are, stupidly, considered Evil regardless of their actual alignment. My NG Necropolitan? Evil, forget the fact that their mission in unlife is hunting down and obliterating a wanton murderhobo Lich. And that's before we enter into the territory of Dread Necromancer.

People can worship Evil gods because D&D morality is a quagmire of nigh-incomprehensible silliness sometimes.

Segev
2018-07-13, 01:06 PM
I know it's a common conceit that gods require worship to be gods, but I am not sure it's 100% enforced in all D&D settings, even just the published ones.

That said, Nerull could be believed in and propitiated sufficiently that he gets his requisite subsistence-level worship that way.

hamishspence
2018-07-13, 01:06 PM
Wee Jas. Lawful Evil goddess of the Lawful Undead, who is apparently a valid Paladin goddess if we go by RKV's multiclassing note, who I am convinced is only registered as Evil because all Undead are, stupidly, considered Evil regardless of their actual alignment.


Wee Jas is LN (with very mild LE tendencies). Thus, paladins are within "one step" of her alignment.

JoeJ
2018-07-13, 01:11 PM
I actually disagree. I don't see the D&D pantheon depicted in this cooperative manner in the books with the only exception being the great wheel cosmology, which is related to, but separate from the pantheon. It seems like most of the standard D&D deities would happily eradicate half the pantheon and forever shift the balance of power over the material plane directly into their domain.

Deities do not comprise the great wheel, they're just the biggest players on that battleground and they happen to find themselves in a deific mexican standoff.

I really feel that the description of the gods in the phb makes it clear these gods are actively at war with one another and send their clerics to disrupt each other's goals. They are each trying to shift the balance of power into their own favor. This is not quite the atmosphere of, "everyone worships all the gods" you describe. There's really no reason to worship Gruumsh unless you like orcs and hate elves. Likewise, you don't really want heironeous and hextor to keep battling for supremacy. Most people just want hextor slain so the world can move on from tyranny.

You accurately describe the cosmology of the universe, sure. But you're off key with the pantheon. It's understandable to conflate them because usually a pantheonic structure is meant to be a cosmology, but this doesn't seem to be the case in D&D. In fact, recognizing the dichotomy between the pantheon and the cosmology might be the best argument in favor of religious neutrality: "I like that pelor wants to heal people, but if erythnul never slaughters anyone, the great wheel gets lopsided and the universe will lose its spin."

I can totally see druids advocating worship of the whole pantheon, since maintaining status quo is likely the easiest way to preserve the natural state of the cosmos. Meanwhile, the clerics and paladins want to "bring balance to the force" by helping their deities put an end to the deities that oppose their champion.

That may be the case for the Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Dragonlance, and Eberron (maybe) pantheons, but the PHB also includes the Celtic, Greek, Egyptian, and Norse gods which would usually be worshipped together - what the DMG calls a Tight Pantheon.

Belac93
2018-07-13, 01:20 PM
One of my favourite quotes from a Practical Guide to Evil, which is a series where fantasy tropes are real, tangible presences and the evil empire won 20 years before the start of the story, goes like this:

"All your gods are pr**ks"
"Yes, but imagine how much worse they'd be if we didn't worship them."

Darth Ultron
2018-07-13, 01:41 PM
I know it's a common conceit that gods require worship to be gods, but I am not sure it's 100% enforced in all D&D settings, even just the published ones.

That said, Nerull could be believed in and propitiated sufficiently that he gets his requisite subsistence-level worship that way.

The Forgotten Realms has stated that ''fear'' and ''respect'' count for ''worship''.

I think any society has a huge population of both good and evil people. A typical society will have thousands of Nerull worshipers. After all, just look at the murder rate in most places. Just about any episode of CSI or any cop show really, will have a Nerull worshiper commit a murder. It's common.

Segev
2018-07-13, 01:45 PM
Not all murderers will worship Nerull. But there will be those who do. There are people who buy into all sorts of crazy ideologies and philosophies in the real world, some highly destructive to themselves and others. There will be people who think being a cleric of an evil god is awesome.

Kaptin Keen
2018-07-13, 02:54 PM
I know it's a common conceit that gods require worship to be gods, but I am not sure it's 100% enforced in all D&D settings, even just the published ones.

That said, Nerull could be believed in and propitiated sufficiently that he gets his requisite subsistence-level worship that way.

I .. feel like it's a thing in D&D that the astral is full of the corpses of dead gods who lost all their worshippers. But I don't really disagree with you - I feel D&D is on very shaky ground when it comes to what stuff divinity is made of. For instance, if the stuff is worship - how can gods kill each other?!

Also ... I'm sure any act of murder is automatically an act of worship for Nerull. I just still don't like the design =)

Pleh
2018-07-13, 02:57 PM
That may be the case for the Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Dragonlance, and Eberron (maybe) pantheons, but the PHB also includes the Celtic, Greek, Egyptian, and Norse gods which would usually be worshipped together - what the DMG calls a Tight Pantheon.

Yes, but those also happen to be real world religions, which are unsuitable for the forum so I wasn't including them in consideration.

JoeJ
2018-07-13, 03:08 PM
Yes, but those also happen to be real world religions, which are unsuitable for the forum so I wasn't including them in consideration.

I wasn't referring to them as they are in reality though, but as portrayed in D&D, where they have a history going back to OD&D and continuing to the present. (How different the D&D versions are from historical reality is a separate question, and one not suitable for this forum.) The Norse pantheon, for instance, is specifically used in the 5e DMG as an example of a tight pantheon.

Erit
2018-07-13, 07:56 PM
Wee Jas is LN (with very mild LE tendencies). Thus, paladins are within "one step" of her alignment.

Huh. Well douse my head in kerosine and strike me like a match, here I was utterly convinced the BoED had ruined everything. I mean, I guess it still has, but at least not Wee Jas.

Though on the note of "one step," doesn't that not apply to Paladins anyway since, as far as I can recall, Kord's also a valid choice?

Bohandas
2018-07-13, 08:04 PM
I know it's a common conceit that gods require worship to be gods, but I am not sure it's 100% enforced in all D&D settings, even just the published ones.

Especially not in Eberron

Keltest
2018-07-13, 09:08 PM
This type of thinking is not present in D&D. No one in the D&D universe ''thinks'' they are anything, they simply are something. Good and evil are set cosmic concepts. Depending on what a person does, and how they live their life, determines what alignment they are. If a person does x and believes in X, then they are X. It is that simple.

Each god represents a spin on each alignment. Different lanes on the same road.

If a character thinks that they can simply kill anyone anytime for any reason, what a ''good'' person would call murder, then they are an evil person. They will likely choose to worship a god like Nerull.

But you do get the word confusion. ''Murder'' is a word based on a Good Only Worldview: to ''just kill'' is wrong. But there is no decent word for ''just kill''.

Plenty of people in D&D land are mistaken about their alignment. Not every bad guy twirls a moustache, even in the Forgotten Realms.

Chauncymancer
2018-07-13, 10:02 PM
If you ask me - and why would you, but let's assume you did - I'd answer: They don't.

If Vlad the Impaler had been literally immortal, and extolling his virtues gave you literal magic powers, do you think there would have been more or fewer people helping him earn the title "the impaler"?

Lord Raziere
2018-07-13, 10:13 PM
The reason why is simple:
Evil person: What evil gods? There is no such thing, its all a matter of perception.

hamishspence
2018-07-13, 11:23 PM
Though on the note of "one step," doesn't that not apply to Paladins anyway since, as far as I can recall, Kord's also a valid choice?

A few gods have special exceptions - allowing paladins despite being more than one step away. The one step rule is a general rule, that is occasionally overridden.

Darth Ultron
2018-07-14, 12:47 AM
Plenty of people in D&D land are mistaken about their alignment. Not every bad guy twirls a moustache, even in the Forgotten Realms.

No they are not. In D&D it is very clear what alignment a person is. A person is X, period.

Every bad guy is evil, this is very basic: If you do evil things, you are evil. The person does not get to decide anything about it. Only a crazy idiot would like slaughter 1,000 people and then say "I'm good"...and it would not even matter what they say, as they would glow with pure evil. The cosmos decided what is good and evil, not people.

Bohandas
2018-07-14, 02:05 AM
That may be the case for the Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Dragonlance, and Eberron (maybe) pantheons, but the PHB also includes the Celtic, Greek, Egyptian, and Norse gods which would usually be worshipped together - what the DMG calls a Tight Pantheon.

Eberron's main pantheon is explicitly a set of two tight pantheons:

The Sovereign Host, the good and neutral deities who are generally worshipped as a group
and
The Dark Six, the evil deities (plus one who's just kind of a jerk) who are occasionally worshipped as a group and often referred to and treated collectively by their detractors.

Eberron also has the Cult of the Dragon Below, which venerates an eclectic mix of fiendish forces including the Rakshasa Rajahs, the Daelkyr princes, and the satanic dragon Khyber, and any given sect or cultist might worship all or some or none of these things

JoeJ
2018-07-14, 02:12 AM
Eberron's main pantheon is explicitly a set of two tight pantheons:

The Sovereign Host, the good and neutral deities who are generally worshipped as a group
and
The Dark Six, the evil deities (plus one who's just kind of a jerk) who are occasionally worshipped as a group and often referred to and treated collectively by their detractors.

Eberron also has the Cult of the Dragon Below, which venerates an eclectic mix of fiendish forces including the Rakshasa Rajahs, the Daelkyr princes, and the satanic dragon Khyber, and any given sect or cultist might worship all or some or none of these things

Thank you. I don't know very much about Eberron, although it appears to incorporate some interesting ideas.

hamishspence
2018-07-14, 03:12 AM
No they are not. In D&D it is very clear what alignment a person is. A person is X, period.


Yes - and a paladin or cleric casting Detect (relevant Alignment) will be able to find this out. But that doesn't mean that the character themselves will know. The boxes have boundaries - and characters within the boundaries may be hard to distinguish except with magic. There will be Neutral characters who are ruthless jerks, and Evil characters who are surprisingly compassionate.

D&D is not as black-and-white as all that.

paddyfool
2018-07-14, 04:16 AM
I can think of three good reasons, (all of which oddly start with the letter P)

Power- the cult offers power that can't be gotten elsewhere. The dark side is more powerful if you don;t have 600 years to spend mastering the art of goodly magic

Propitiation - People make offerings to the god in hopes that they'll stay away.

Propaganda- People have been convinced that this god is beneficial. And before you say the detect good/detect evil spells make this not work you have to realize that the word good pulls double duty in the english language; it refers both to "beneficial/preferable" and "morally correct". This correspondence might not exist in other languages and in it's absence the implication that what is morally correct is preferable may be gone too (my headcanon is that the orcish word for something good in the sense of preferable translates more literally as "smashing").

It is particularly easy to confuse or conflate goodness and order; to the point where detect law might be seen as detecting good and detect evil would be seen as detecting sternnesss.

Or they might be truly seen as evil but as a necessary evil. Offhand I could give at least two examples of this from real world mythologies (but then Roland would yell at me so I won't)

I would go with all of the above, but would offer another:

4) Personality. Evil can be sexy. Dangerous. Rebellious or authoritative. Sympathetic to those of a self-interested, spiteful, or generally nasty disposition. . It can give you everything you want, for a price, regardless of the collateral damage. If someone has done you a great wrong (perceived or actual), do you really want to offer your prayers to a LG or LN god of justuce who may be scrupulously fair and even-handed, or do you offer them to an E god of vengeance and spite? If you're sufficiently aggrieved, the latter can be a lot more tempting.

Kaptin Keen
2018-07-14, 04:20 AM
If Vlad the Impaler had been literally immortal, and extolling his virtues gave you literal magic powers, do you think there would have been more or fewer people helping him earn the title "the impaler"?

... I think you misrepresent the truth, there.

Now, if Vlad the Impaler was literally cursed forever to drink the blood of innocents and bemoan the loss of both his faith in god and the love of his life - would he be an inspirational figure for others to follow? No - I honestly really don't think so.

But you paint him in a false light - 'omg, being a vampire is such an awesome deal' ... being any form of undead is eternal torment. Even if you chose to become one yourself, such as a lich, it's a dead end road that leads to nothing to damnation and suffering. And eternal existance. But not life. Eternal existance without joy or happiness.

But again, I realize my view on such things is a statistical outlier. Most people think vampires have wonderful fun.

Keltest
2018-07-14, 07:42 AM
Yes - and a paladin or cleric casting Detect (relevant Alignment) will be able to find this out. But that doesn't mean that the character themselves will know. The boxes have boundaries - and characters within the boundaries may be hard to distinguish except with magic. There will be Neutral characters who are ruthless jerks, and Evil characters who are surprisingly compassionate.

D&D is not as black-and-white as all that.

More to the point, crazy people exist. Desperate people exist. It doesn't take a whole lot for somebody to be willfully ignorant of the harm theyre causing, or to justify it to themselves somehow. Most evil people wont admit to being evil. They'll say their actions are an unfortunate necessity, or deny the very existence of good versus evil, or even genuinely believe that they aren't hurting anybody. And that's not getting into the petty, cowardly evil that lacks opportunity to do real harm but still hurts people in little ways.

Anymage
2018-07-14, 09:20 AM
But again, I realize my view on such things is a statistical outlier. Most people think vampires have wonderful fun.

This isn't about what would happen if the vampire Dracula was real. It's about what would happen if prayer to an objectively horrible person could grant magical powers. In D&D it kind of goes off the rails because you can also get equivalent powers by worshipping the forces of happiness and light, but it does cover why sometimes people are okay trucking with the forces of darkness.


More to the point, crazy people exist. Desperate people exist. It doesn't take a whole lot for somebody to be willfully ignorant of the harm theyre causing, or to justify it to themselves somehow. Most evil people wont admit to being evil. They'll say their actions are an unfortunate necessity, or deny the very existence of good versus evil, or even genuinely believe that they aren't hurting anybody. And that's not getting into the petty, cowardly evil that lacks opportunity to do real harm but still hurts people in little ways.

In the real world, absolutely. We could list off tons of reasons for that.

In a universe where Good and Evil are as tangible and objective as fire and water, and where people can meet entities literally composed of one of those alignments, there's less ambiguity. Instead of debating the finer details of trolley problems, we can just go ask a bunch of angels what their take is. Some people may be mistaken on which side of the boundary line between Neutral and Evil they stand on (something that we as players don't exactly have a clear understanding of where the lines are drawn), but anybody who is important enough for the PCs to go after probably has a pretty good idea.

Keltest
2018-07-14, 09:30 AM
In the real world, absolutely. We could list off tons of reasons for that.

In a universe where Good and Evil are as tangible and objective as fire and water, and where people can meet entities literally composed of one of those alignments, there's less ambiguity. Instead of debating the finer details of trolley problems, we can just go ask a bunch of angels what their take is. Some people may be mistaken on which side of the boundary line between Neutral and Evil they stand on (something that we as players don't exactly have a clear understanding of where the lines are drawn), but anybody who is important enough for the PCs to go after probably has a pretty good idea.

I think you are greatly overestimating the desire villains have to understand what is written on their character sheet. Nobody is the villain of their own story. With the exception of certain groups in the Forgotten Realms and similar settings, most evil people have motives that genuinely make sense to themselves. Evil might be a literal tangible force, but unless youre an outsider that's still mostly meaningless to your life. If doing these things so you can feed your family, or better develop medical theories, or take over the world so you can end all conflict forever means that paladins can smite you, well, clearly the value system of these cosmic forces isn't any good.

Anymage
2018-07-14, 09:51 AM
With the exception of certain groups in the Forgotten Realms and similar settings, most evil people have motives that genuinely make sense to themselves.

This kinda encapsulates the whole point.

In the real world we only have gut instincts to guide us, and often have to chose between the least of available evils. Absent any clear markers, there's lots of room to debate the finer points of morality.

In your average D&D setting, many groups are made with black hats affixed firmly to their heads, because there's something satisfying to smiting an unambiguously evil enemy. I'm not denying that there's a place for more ambiguous settings. I'm just saying that it's hard to square those with people cheerfully worshipping Nerull.

Honest Tiefling
2018-07-14, 10:08 AM
... I think you misrepresent the truth, there.

I agree, but it is an interesting point...As Vlady pants was fighting against the Ottoman empire, who weren't always well liked in Eastern Europe for trying to take bits of it over. He isn't always associated with vampires, after all. Would people have helped him impale people if it meant freedom from a group of people they felt were oppressing them, if he showed great power? I think you'd have an argument for it. Freeing your people through the slaughter and torture of others can be quite tempting...Especially if the new guy makes the trains run on time.

Keltest
2018-07-14, 11:50 AM
This kinda encapsulates the whole point.

In the real world we only have gut instincts to guide us, and often have to chose between the least of available evils. Absent any clear markers, there's lots of room to debate the finer points of morality.

In your average D&D setting, many groups are made with black hats affixed firmly to their heads, because there's something satisfying to smiting an unambiguously evil enemy. I'm not denying that there's a place for more ambiguous settings. I'm just saying that it's hard to square those with people cheerfully worshipping Nerull.

Alright, lets take a non-D&D example. In Pillars of Eternity, one of the gods is Skaen, who has a rather specific niche: the oppressed and downtrodden worship him so that he will punish their oppressors. He doesn't actually do anything for them beyond that, and obviously people in power don't like him practically by definition, but you run into cults of Skaenites in the game who do things like instigate the murder of an incestuous nobleman who ran away with a niece he impregnated. On the one hand, theyre obviously evil, because murder, but on the other hand this guy and people like him are otherwise mostly untouchable.

The Skaenites don't wake up every morning going "im going to commit murders today! I feel great!", theyre mostly just ordinary people who see themselves backed into a corner with little alternative besides allow something they see as unacceptable.

Kaptin Keen
2018-07-14, 11:51 AM
It's about what would happen if prayer to an objectively horrible person could grant magical powers.

No - it's about: If you pray to me, you can be as eternally cursed as I am! Who'd want that deal? All you have to do is throw away every shred of humanity, and I'll reward you with eternal suffering.

There is no way you can turn that around to sound like an attractive deal.


I agree, but it is an interesting point...As Vlady pants was fighting against the Ottoman empire, who weren't always well liked in Eastern Europe for trying to take bits of it over. He isn't always associated with vampires, after all. Would people have helped him impale people if it meant freedom from a group of people they felt were oppressing them, if he showed great power? I think you'd have an argument for it. Freeing your people through the slaughter and torture of others can be quite tempting...Especially if the new guy makes the trains run on time.

People did help him, he didn't personally go around impaling ten thousand ottoman footmen, I'm sure. But that's not the question here, at least not to me - morals were way different in those days, and battlefield atrocities were pretty much norm. As were rape, and pillage, and plunder.

Even if, by all accounts, Vlad was a bit over the top, even for his own time.

And it's entirely true that throughout human history, people have followed absolutely awful leaders - they still do it today, and not just in wierd, distant developing countries either - but that's not the deal were talking about here.

You can be a good guy (m/f) and follow a terrible leader in good (or bad for that matter) faith, without consigning your soul to eternal suffering.

You cannot worship Nerull and expect anything good of any kind to come from it, for anyone - least of all yourself. It's exclusively for the totally derailed. And I've seen the totally derailed. None of them worship Nerull either. They're mostly just pathetic, scared and lost.

Darth Ultron
2018-07-14, 12:29 PM
Yes - and a paladin or cleric casting Detect (relevant Alignment) will be able to find this out. But that doesn't mean that the character themselves will know. The boxes have boundaries - and characters within the boundaries may be hard to distinguish except with magic. There will be Neutral characters who are ruthless jerks, and Evil characters who are surprisingly compassionate.

D&D is not as black-and-white as all that.

You would know as that is the way the universe of D&D works. X is evil, and Y is good. Even a peasant would see examples of this everyday. And there would not be much 'gray' areas.

Remember it is how a person lives their whole life, not just one thing they do. A worshiper of Nerull thinks murder is ok 24/7. Even if they don't personally commit a murder everyday: they agree and like the idea.


I think you are greatly overestimating the desire villains have to understand what is written on their character sheet. Nobody is the villain of their own story. With the exception of certain groups in the Forgotten Realms and similar settings, most evil people have motives that genuinely make sense to themselves. Evil might be a literal tangible force, but unless youre an outsider that's still mostly meaningless to your life. If doing these things so you can feed your family, or better develop medical theories, or take over the world so you can end all conflict forever means that paladins can smite you, well, clearly the value system of these cosmic forces isn't any good.

Well, this is where mortals don't get to decide any of this. If you do X your good, and if you do Y you are evil: there is no debate.

But you need to keep in mind that both are Right. It's not the type of mythology where only ONE WAY is right: all the alignments are right.

Some, like halflings bulid a society in the good way, by helping people. So evil ones, like orcs, build a society by violence and death. Both are right and valid.

The word ''villain'' in D&D is more ''someone who disagrees with you'' , not ''evil person''. To and evil person, a elf that helps the poor is a villain.



You cannot worship Nerull and expect anything good of any kind to come from it, for anyone - least of all yourself. It's exclusively for the totally derailed. And I've seen the totally derailed. None of them worship Nerull either. They're mostly just pathetic, scared and lost.

Well, you would worship Nerull and expect evil to come from it: That is the whole point.

A Nerull society is great, to a Nerull worshiper. Like Bob goes into a store to buy something, and gets in line to checkout. Ahead of him is a slow, lazy halfling who is chatting with the clerk, moving slow, and ''can't find their coin pouch''. So Bob stabs the halfling in the back 25 times, and tosses his body out of the way. Then Bob pays for his items and goes home. It's all evil, and it's all right in the society.

Ava needs some help to carry heavy items, so she has two zombies animated to be her porters. It's all evil, and it's all right in the society.

Kaptin Keen
2018-07-14, 12:45 PM
Well, you would worship Nerull and expect evil to come from it: That is the whole point.

A Nerull society is great, to a Nerull worshiper. Like Bob goes into a store to buy something, and gets in line to checkout. Ahead of him is a slow, lazy halfling who is chatting with the clerk, moving slow, and ''can't find their coin pouch''. So Bob stabs the halfling in the back 25 times, and tosses his body out of the way. Then Bob pays for his items and goes home. It's all evil, and it's all right in the society.

Ava needs some help to carry heavy items, so she has two zombies animated to be her porters. It's all evil, and it's all right in the society.

Yes - that's exactly what I have zero faith in: A 'society' of people happily murdering each other and feeling fine about it. No one, at any point in history, does murder or even violence and feels just grand about it. We justify stuff all the time. But we don't sleep well at night.

But more than that, I don't believe in anyone serving themselves up for the meat grinder for no benefit.

And there is no benefit - zero. You throw away your morals and your humanity to become a loveless, hateful existance - so you can eventually be murdered by someone just like you, but younger, and suffer for all eternity in hell. Not attractive. Marketing cannot prettify that enough to sell any tickets.

Calthropstu
2018-07-14, 12:51 PM
Not just secret cults.

The Zhentarim once ruled a massive kingdom. Dedicated to Bane, as a god of tyranny and war it works for a nation. "Grant us the power to destroy and subjugate our enemies."

Believe it or not, tyranny can actually accomplish a lot of good things. Think of it as a "necessary evil." A man who is ruthless as a ruler reduces crime, and can bring about a number of advances in society quickly because "get this done" carries a significant amount of weight.

Drow worship, for the most part, the goddess Lloth. Their society weeds out the weak and pulls power towards specific individuals. In that way, though it is ostensibly a chaotic society it also acts as tyrannical. It gives a hope though that through extreme machinations, one can increase their standing in society.

Orcs worship Gruumsch. The god of strength and battle. Again, tyranny. Rule by the strongest warrior. There's a simplistic nature to it and is basic and primal.

So evil societies DO exist that worship evil deities, and it can work.

Keltest
2018-07-14, 12:53 PM
Well, this is where mortals don't get to decide any of this. If you do X your good, and if you do Y you are evil: there is no debate.

But you need to keep in mind that both are Right. It's not the type of mythology where only ONE WAY is right: all the alignments are right.

Some, like halflings bulid a society in the good way, by helping people. So evil ones, like orcs, build a society by violence and death. Both are right and valid.

The word ''villain'' in D&D is more ''someone who disagrees with you'' , not ''evil person''. To and evil person, a elf that helps the poor is a villain.


Youre missing the point. Any objective truth about cosmological forces is entirely irrelevant to the perception of morality. Most people neither know nor care about the cosmic forces of Good and Evil. And even among those who do, they don't necessarily have to align their moral compass with those cosmic forces. Just look at Redcloak in the OOTS comic. Dude is the high priest of an Evil god, quite possibly the most powerful divine caster to ever show up in the comic, and the closes he has come to admitting he has done anything wrong was when he concluded that "hey, hobgoblins are still goblins, I should be abusing and enslaving humans instead!" He even goes out of his way to quantify that he is "evil" only in the sense that he opposed people who identify themselves as "good"

WindStruck
2018-07-14, 02:57 PM
Evil societies where Evil is not only acceptable, but Evil is 'good' are illogical. Like, completely utterly, impossible to exist, and do not work.

Suppose it is 'Good' to kill people. Of course, not only does that mean you can get away with happily murdering anyone you want, but it means you should do it. And any 'good' person should do as much 'good' as they can! So you murder a lot of people. In fact, murdering people is so 'good', you should have no qualms about other people killing you. You should, in fact, encourage other people to kill you. This kind of a society would make no sense, and literally could not exist, because everyone would be dead.

A little less extreme. Let's say stealing is 'good'. So it is not only desirable to steal from your neighbor, but since stealing is 'good', you should let them steal from you. But if you are letting them steal from you, is it actually stealing? :smallconfused:

Let's take the first pages from the book How to Win Friends and Influence People:


On May 7, 1931, the most sensational manhunt New York City had ever known had come to its climax. After weeks of search, "Two Gun" Crowley--the killer, the gunman who didn't smoke or drink--was at bay, trapped in his sweetheart's apartment on West End Avenue.

One hundred and fifty policemen and detectives laid siege to his top-floor hideaway. They chopped holes in the roof, they tried to smoke out Crowley, the "cop killer," with tear gas. Then they mounted their machine guns on surrounding buildings, and for more than an hour one of New York's fine residential areas reverberated with the crack of pistol fire and the rat-tat-tat of machine guns. Crowley, crouching behind an overstuffed chair, fired incessantly at the police. Ten thousand excited people watched the battle. Nothing like it had ever been seen before on the sidewalks of New York.

When Crowley was captured, Police Commissioner E. P. Mulrooney declared that the two-gun desperado was one of the most dangerous criminals ever encountered in the history of New York. "He will kill," said the Commissioner, "at the drop of a feather."

But how did "Two Gun" Crowley regard himself? We know, because while the police were firing into his apartment, he wrote a letter addressed, "To whom it may concern." And, as he wrote, the blood flowing from his wounds left a crimson trail on the paper. In his letter Crowley said: "Under my coat is a weary heart, but a kind one--one that would do nobody any harm."

A short time before this, Crowley had been having a necking party with his girl friend on a country road out on Long Island. Suddenly a policeman walked up to the car and said: "Let me see your license."

Without saying a word, Crowley drew his gun and cut the policeman down with a shower of lead. As the dying officer fell, Crowley leaped out of the car, grabbed the officer's revolver, and fired another bullet into the prostrate body. And that was the killer who said: "Under my coat is a weary heart, but a kind one-one that would do nobody any harm."

Crowley was sentenced to the electric chair. When he arrived at the death house in Sing Sing, did he say, "This is what I get for killing people"? No, he said, "This is what I get for defending myself."

The point of the story is this: "Two Gun" Crowley didn't blame himself for anything.

Is that an unusual attitude among criminals? If you think so, listen to this:

"I have spent the best years of my life giving people the lighter pleasures, helping them have a good time, and all I get is abuse, the existence of a hunted man."

That's Al Capone speaking. Yes, America's most notorious Public Enemy--the most sinister gang leader who ever shot up Chicago. Capone didn't condemn himself. He actually regarded himself as a public benefactor--an unappreciated and misunderstood public benefactor.

And so did Dutch Schultz before he crumpled up under gangster bullets in Newark. Dutch Schultz, one of New York's most notorious rats, said in a newspaper interview that he was a public benefactor. And he believed it.

I have had some interesting correspondence with Lewis Lawes, who was warden of New York's infamous Sing Sing prison for many years, on this subject, and he declared that "few of the criminals in Sing Sing regard themselves as bad men. They are just as human as you and I. So they rationalize, they explain. They can tell you why they had to crack a safe or be quick on the trigger finger. Most of them attempt by a form of reasoning, fallacious or logical, to justify their antisocial acts even to themselves, consequently stoutly maintaining that they should never have been imprisoned at all."

If Al Capone, "Two Gun" Crowley, Dutch Schultz, and the desperate men and women behind prison walls don't blame themselves for anything--what about the people with whom you and I come in contact?

So my take away from this is that most evildoers don't actually recognize that what they are doing is evil or justify it in some way. An evil society would likely worship evil gods, who reward them for accomplishing evil things on their agenda, but the society itself still has rules, law, and structure, which even the evil people punish for breaking.

It isn't so much that morality is subjective, and we can just flip everything on it's head. Good is 'evil' and Evil is 'good'. It's that these people are rationally or irrationally motivated to do evil deeds, by their already-evil society and evil gods. I would say an evil society and evil god lets you get away with certain evil acts, and even encourages them in specific, controlled circumstances. But it isn't a blanket morality reversal.

Kaptin Keen
2018-07-14, 03:17 PM
.. post too long to repeat - but I agree in general ..

The exact explanation is in there: We rationalize everything. Not moving too close to real world comparisons, but all the great villains of human history absolutely consider themselves great men and good human beings forced by circumstance to make hard, or harsh, choices.

I work with criminals (among others). They're good people. No, seriously. When under pressure, they will have a higher tendency than you or I to do something rash, irrational and outright stupid - illegal, violent, dangerous. But - they are good people ... otherwise. These guys come out of jail, and I help them find a place in society, a real job and so on, and they're grateful as goddamn puppies. Just for treating them like regular human beings, and giving them a chance.

Thus far, not a single one of them has let me down (I've been doing this for 6 months - it'll come, I'm sure).

On another tangent, lots of societies have been ... morally deficient. I mentioned the vikings, I think. The samurai too, had freedom beyond what makes any moral sense. Same for .. well, I'm thinking the ancient egyptians, but that far back, I think everything was law of the jungle.

But that's not to say that any society was ever evil by it's own standards. But those standards may very well be evil by the standards of today.

Xuc Xac
2018-07-14, 04:15 PM
... I think you misrepresent the truth, there.

Now, if Vlad the Impaler was literally cursed forever to drink the blood of innocents and bemoan the loss of both his faith in god and the love of his life - would he be an inspirational figure for others to follow? No - I honestly really don't think so.

Nobody said "vampire" until you did. Vlad III Dracula "the Impaler" was a real person who is famous for doing brutal things. But most of the bad things written about him were written in German and Turkish. He's a national hero among his own people, who see him as a just tyrant who did brutal things to bring order. He's a major reason they still speak Romanian instead of Turkish or German.

In D&D, he would be Lawful Evil, but the Evil is just a side effect of focusing on Law at any cost. He's not evil because he likes Evil. He's evil because he really, really likes Law and he doesn't care what it takes to get it. He used a lot of cruel and unusual punishments, but he used them for reasons that benefited law and order and not for his personal sadistic pleasure.

I had a friend who went into a convenience store in Riyadh and saw a dusty wallet on the counter. Somebody forgot it there and nobody else would touch it, because they didn't want to risk being accused of stealing it and getting a hand cut off for it. There's a similar story about Vlad says someone left a gold drinking cup on a public fountain but nobody would touch it because of Vlad's super strict punishments for robbery.

People can be evil if they consider something else to be more important than which side of the Good/Evil line they are on. For Vlad, Law (and keeping foreign invaders from taking over Wallachia) was more important than anything else. DC Comics' Joker is Chaotic Evil because a bit of murder and destruction helps maximize the chaos, which is the important part to him. And if you're a mad scientist trying to develop a race of atomic supermen to bring humanity into a new golden age, what's a bit of eugenic/ethnic cleansing to tidy up the gene pool?

Saying "Oh no, you foolish fools! Don't you know if you serve evil gods, you'll go to the evil afterlife?" is like saying "if you try to rise through the ranks of a mafia crime family, you'll end up working for the mafia! Don't you know that's illegal?"

SimonMoon6
2018-07-14, 08:11 PM
No they are not. In D&D it is very clear what alignment a person is. A person is X, period.

Every bad guy is evil, this is very basic: If you do evil things, you are evil. The person does not get to decide anything about it. Only a crazy idiot would like slaughter 1,000 people and then say "I'm good"...and it would not even matter what they say, as they would glow with pure evil. The cosmos decided what is good and evil, not people.

People are often in denial. Your "know alignment" spell is "fake news".

You guys espousing the view that us simple folk are somehow "wrong" or "evil" (based solely on the fact that we have different views from you)? You're just some sort of liberal elites living in an ivory tower (or wizard's tower) and you don't know nuthin' 'bout nuthin'. How dare you call us evil? How dare you use "fake spells" to "detect" us as being evil? All of those news media spells are obviously biased and must be the enemy of the people.

WE can't be the bad guys because WE are US. And I like us. So, anyone who says WE are the bad guys must be stinking poopoo-heads who lie and stuff. YOU must be the bad guys, not us.

Darth Ultron
2018-07-14, 10:43 PM
Yes - that's exactly what I have zero faith in: A 'society' of people happily murdering each other and feeling fine about it. No one, at any point in history, does murder or even violence and feels just grand about it. We justify stuff all the time. But we don't sleep well at night.

I would point out that every evil person ever has not cared even a tiny bit about murder or any other evil act.



But more than that, I don't believe in anyone serving themselves up for the meat grinder for no benefit.

Though, of course, people do it all the time.



And there is no benefit - zero. You throw away your morals and your humanity to become a loveless, hateful existance - so you can eventually be murdered by someone just like you, but younger, and suffer for all eternity in hell. Not attractive. Marketing cannot prettify that enough to sell any tickets.

Correct, from the good point of view. An evil person has an evil life...that is the whole point.


Youre missing the point. Any objective truth about cosmological forces is entirely irrelevant to the perception of morality. Most people neither know nor care about the cosmic forces of Good and Evil.

The average person both knows and cares...it kind of basic ''meaning of life stuff''.



And even among those who do, they don't necessarily have to align their moral compass with those cosmic forces. Just look at Redcloak in the OOTS comic. Dude is the high priest of an Evil god, quite possibly the most powerful divine caster to ever show up in the comic, and the closes he has come to admitting he has done anything wrong was when he concluded that "hey, hobgoblins are still goblins, I should be abusing and enslaving humans instead!" He even goes out of his way to quantify that he is "evil" only in the sense that he opposed people who identify themselves as "good"

So he lies and hides the truth and is evil, ok?



Suppose it is 'Good' to kill people. Of course, not only does that mean you can get away with happily murdering anyone you want, but it means you should do it. And any 'good' person should do as much 'good' as they can! So you murder a lot of people. In fact, murdering people is so 'good', you should have no qualms about other people killing you. You should, in fact, encourage other people to kill you. This kind of a society would make no sense, and literally could not exist, because everyone would be dead.

That makes no sense. And if it did: why does good never do it?

A perfect example of a good act is helping others. A rich person should help the poor...so why don't they give away ALL their money to help the poor?

Why must evil go to the extreme, but good does not have to?



A little less extreme. Let's say stealing is 'good'. So it is not only desirable to steal from your neighbor, but since stealing is 'good', you should let them steal from you. But if you are letting them steal from you, is it actually stealing? :smallconfused:

This right here, is Kender Society.



So my take away from this is that most evildoers don't actually recognize that what they are doing is evil or justify it in some way. An evil society would likely worship evil gods, who reward them for accomplishing evil things on their agenda, but the society itself still has rules, law, and structure, which even the evil people punish for breaking.

Except D&D does not work like that.

Your version is the way of the One Good God. So this God says HE and ONLY He is good, and is in fact the ONLY god. Everything else, is bad and wrong, be cause HE says so. This is not how a D&D universe works.




I work with criminals (among others). They're good people.

It's true that some criminals are good....but you don't really think EVERY criminal is just a pure good angel who just ''made a mistake'', right?


People are often in denial. Your "know alignment" spell is "fake news".



Ah, to be clear I own a Make America Great Again hat :)

But the great thing about cosmic good and evil is it does not matter what a person ''just says''...you can fool the cosmos.

It's a lot like the way you can't (overly) fool technology...and this is why SO many people are opposed to such technology: they KNOW they will be caught.

WindStruck
2018-07-14, 10:49 PM
Yeah, that's actually true. 'Good' taken to the extreme is what we call pathological altruism. That is also self destructive.

The one god... Once again, seems this is coming down to what the gamemaster says is good and evil. They're the ones that decide if a creature shows up as good or evil after all. Or a spell, or a god for that matter.

But surely you must agree that an evil society, worshiping an evil god, still has rules. Breaking those rules makes you a traitor, unworthy, dishonorable, or ironically 'evil', etc...

I'm a bit confused, cause I am pretty damn sure d&d works like that.

Darth Ultron
2018-07-14, 11:11 PM
Yeah, that's actually true. 'Good' taken to the extreme is what we call pathological altruism. That is also self destructive.

So you will note most societies don't go to those extremes.



The one god... Once again, seems this is coming down to what the gamemaster says is good and evil. They're the ones that decide if a creature shows up as good or evil after all. Or a spell, or a god for that matter.

Technically, in the game, this is true of everything. This is simply how the game is, and how the rules are written.



But surely you must agree that an evil society, worshiping an evil god, still has rules. Breaking those rules makes you a traitor, unworthy, dishonorable, or ironically 'evil', etc...

I'm a bit confused, cause I am pretty damn sure d&d works like that.

A society having rules, or laws or traditions, has nothing to do with the good or evil of a society.

hamishspence
2018-07-14, 11:46 PM
I would point out that every evil person ever has not cared even a tiny bit about murder or any other evil act.


Not according to D&D splatbooks - which make it clear that evil characters can be more complex than that.

Champions of Ruin

Seduction:
The character has been lured with promises of power, glory, wealth, or pleasure into performing evil acts. He is not proud of his actions, but his desire for these rewards outweighs his dislike of what he has become.

Driven to Evil:
A character could be driven to evil in several ways. His life or circumstances might have been so harsh that he had to commit evil acts just to survive. He might be seeking retribution for some unimaginable wrong done to him or those he loved. He might be fighting fire with fire, so to speak, driven to evil just to keep a worse evil at bay.

The Ends Justify The Means
The character seeks some greater good, perhaps the overthrow of a heinous villain or th establishment of a good church or organization in the face of adversity; nothing will stop her from achieving his goal, even if she must do evil to accomplish it.

Darth Ultron
2018-07-15, 12:02 AM
Not according to D&D splatbooks - which make it clear that evil characters can be more complex than that.

Champions of Ruin

Seduction:
The character has been lured with promises of power, glory, wealth, or pleasure into performing evil acts. He is not proud of his actions, but his desire for these rewards outweighs his dislike of what he has become.

Driven to Evil:
A character could be driven to evil in several ways. His life or circumstances might have been so harsh that he had to commit evil acts just to survive. He might be seeking retribution for some unimaginable wrong done to him or those he loved. He might be fighting fire with fire, so to speak, driven to evil just to keep a worse evil at bay.

The Ends Justify The Means
The character seeks some greater good, perhaps the overthrow of a heinous villain or th establishment of a good church or organization in the face of adversity; nothing will stop her from achieving his goal, even if she must do evil to accomplish it.

Well, ''complex'' is the wrong word because your showing Good Bias. Unless you want to admit that EVERY good person is simple, unless they somehow in a complex way ''became good''.

Otherwise, your examples do show people that ''fall'' to evil...from a good perspective anyway. They are just as valid reasons for being evil as any. Sure some people ''fall'', but most evil people choose to be evil

hamishspence
2018-07-15, 12:36 AM
The point is that

"All evil people feel no remorse about committing murder" and "have not cared even a tiny bit about" committing murder - is a vast oversimplification.

This kind of "one-note evil" is not a requirement in D&D. There are evil characters who dislike the people they have become.


For that matter, murder is far from the only relevant Evil act. You could have an evil-aligned fraudster and con artist who would never dream of committing murder - but has committed so much other Evil, that they ping as Evil-aligned.

Darth Ultron
2018-07-15, 01:00 AM
The point is that

"All evil people feel no remorse about committing murder" and "have not cared even a tiny bit about" committing murder - is a vast oversimplification.

This kind of "one-note evil" is not a requirement in D&D. There are evil characters who dislike the people they have become.


For that matter, murder is far from the only relevant Evil act. You could have an evil-aligned fraudster and con artist who would never dream of committing murder - but has committed so much other Evil, that they ping as Evil-aligned.

Sure, not ''all'', just ''most''. The same way ''most'' good people are fine with helping others...but ''some'' good folks have remorse about wasting time and money and effort on people that need help.

And sure, anyone that ''falls'' or ''somehow'' becomes an alignment unwillingly, might very well dislike who they have become. But a person having a weak will is what makes a lot of drama for plots and stories.

Well, murder is just for the Neurll example. And note, Neurll is also a god of trickery.

hamishspence
2018-07-15, 01:05 AM
I'd say that, if anything, "Card-Carrying villains" who admit that they are evil, revel in it - these are the exception - and "the rule" is for the more self-delusionary kind of Evil character.

WindStruck
2018-07-15, 01:05 AM
The point is that

"All evil people feel no remorse about committing murder" and "have not cared even a tiny bit about" committing murder - is a vast oversimplification.

This kind of "one-note evil" is not a requirement in D&D. There are evil characters who dislike the people they have become.


For that matter, murder is far from the only relevant Evil act. You could have an evil-aligned fraudster and con artist who would never dream of committing murder - but has committed so much other Evil, that they ping as Evil-aligned.

Right. And the fact is... theft and fraud really is quite detrimental. People don't realize this and only tend to think murder is the real bad crime.

But if you steal someone's water in a desert, they're probably going to die of thirst. You steal someone's food during a famine, they'll die of starvation.

In a more prosperous society, perhaps all you've done is taken that person's livelihood or savings down some notches. Could also be worse. Imagine stealing an senior's life savings. Not only have you literally robbed them of everything they worked for, but now they have nothing to live off of in their old age.

Theft is a lot like stealing a portion of a person's life. People spend time working or creating. That's part of their life they spent, which they are not getting back, but the benefit was they have resources secured to use now. If someone comes along and then takes those resources... well, they're back to square one, minus all the time they spent working, and the blood, sweat, and tears.

hamishspence
2018-07-15, 01:11 AM
Right. And the fact is... theft and fraud really is quite detrimental. People don't realize this and only tend to think murder is the real bad crime.


The BOVD list was:

Lying
Murder
Stealing
Cheating
Vengeance
Creating undead
Creating other evil creatures
Harming souls
Worshipping fiends/evil gods
Consorting with fiends
Using others for personal gain
Bullying
Bringing despair
Tempting others into evil

Some (lying, vengeance) had "not always evil" provisos though.

Kaptin Keen
2018-07-15, 02:16 AM
Nobody said "vampire" until you did. Vlad III Dracula "the Impaler" was a real person who is famous for doing brutal things. But most of the bad things written about him were written in German and Turkish. He's a national hero among his own people, who see him as a just tyrant who did brutal things to bring order. He's a major reason they still speak Romanian instead of Turkish or German.

In D&D, he would be Lawful Evil, but the Evil is just a side effect of focusing on Law at any cost. He's not evil because he likes Evil. He's evil because he really, really likes Law and he doesn't care what it takes to get it. He used a lot of cruel and unusual punishments, but he used them for reasons that benefited law and order and not for his personal sadistic pleasure.

I had a friend who went into a convenience store in Riyadh and saw a dusty wallet on the counter. Somebody forgot it there and nobody else would touch it, because they didn't want to risk being accused of stealing it and getting a hand cut off for it. There's a similar story about Vlad says someone left a gold drinking cup on a public fountain but nobody would touch it because of Vlad's super strict punishments for robbery.

People can be evil if they consider something else to be more important than which side of the Good/Evil line they are on. For Vlad, Law (and keeping foreign invaders from taking over Wallachia) was more important than anything else. DC Comics' Joker is Chaotic Evil because a bit of murder and destruction helps maximize the chaos, which is the important part to him. And if you're a mad scientist trying to develop a race of atomic supermen to bring humanity into a new golden age, what's a bit of eugenic/ethnic cleansing to tidy up the gene pool?

Saying "Oh no, you foolish fools! Don't you know if you serve evil gods, you'll go to the evil afterlife?" is like saying "if you try to rise through the ranks of a mafia crime family, you'll end up working for the mafia! Don't you know that's illegal?"

Oh - where to start.

Vlad is frankly entirely irrelevant to this entire discussion - whether it's 'The Impaler' or it's 'Von Zarovich'. Neither are any kind of anti-messiah, and neither have any bearing on why people worship evil gods.

So I answered in the context of the actual discussion, even though the example didn't fit in that context at all.


Though, of course, people do it all the time.

They don't, though. Some are foolish enough to convince themselves they're doing it for all the right reasons - most do it because they somehow feel they need to.

One of those criminals I work with tried to kill another criminal - shooting a full clip into a crowd of bystanders. It frankly doesn't get much worse than that. But being in a gang is an existance of fear fuelled by a nice mix of drugs, adrenaline and testosterone. He shouldn't have joined a gang - he'll be the first to tell you so. But he's a genuinely nice guy, all he wants is to build a life and a future for himself and his little girl.

I'm giving this guy a chance at a life, not particularly because I like him - but because so long as he has any other option, he's not going back to crime. People become criminals because they are desperate and feel they have to, that it's the only path open to them. I'm sure the same holds true for prostitution, begging and any other example you might think of. The .. 'guerilla' soldiers common in parts of the world do not, in fact, join up because of a deep faith or conviction, but because it pays for food and shelter for their families. Most of them, anyways =)

Psyren
2018-07-15, 07:24 AM
Segev and Hamishspece summed up most of what I was going to say. In particular for the power motive, Evil has an easy time seducing people who believe they are undeservedly entitled or undeservedly wronged. One D&D example comes from Salvatore's Cleric Quintet, where the ultimate villain turns out to be
An incel and former priest of Deneir who is constantly overshadowed and emasculated by the main character. His actions become increasingly unforgivable and lead to him being ejected forcibly from Deneir's faith, whereupon he eventually becomes a nascent vampire lord in service of an evil deity (Talona), before finally being destroyed by the heroes.

One thing to add - it's easy to forget that PCs being exceptional is baked into the fabric of the game. To players, paying lip service to every deity in the pantheon can seem foreign, because they are very often championing the causes of one or a handful much more directly than the average person would. For example, if part of your campaign is to save a village from a plague, even a small prayer to Talona or Urgathoa would be ludicrous - such a deity is almost certainly behind it and actively trying to thwart the party. But to the disease-stricken commonfolk, they have nothing to lose by trying to appease her and get her to hopefully leave them alone.

Segev
2018-07-15, 09:07 AM
In a world of unquestionably objective morality, you will get people who do what we already do with “evil” here, only more so. “Evil is sexy,” or “evil is misunderstood,” or even “they call it ‘evil,’ but it actually is necessary and better than so-called ‘good.’”

“Evil,” they will say, “is just strength. Good is weakness.”

We already have stories about how “too much good” leads to tragedy, sorrow, and even “greater evil.” Imagine how much easier that is when one can say that “good” is just a label applied to a particular energy.

But even without that, an evil god’s worshipper might say that he’s “evil,” but that that’s just a label allied by the weak and scared to the strength and power that his god grants.

That halfling that he stabbed to death in he checkout line was weak, or he’d have been able to prevent the murder. Nerull justifies his follower in that action, because Nerull isn’t some pansy who pretends Death isn’t coming for us all the eventually anyway.


For example, if part of your campaign is to save a village from a plague, even a small prayer to Talona or Urgathoa would be ludicrous - such a deity is almost certainly behind it and actively trying to thwart the party. But to the disease-stricken commonfolk, they have nothing to lose by trying to appease her and get her to hopefully leave them alone.
This would be a good piece of world building. The very priest behind the plague might openly admit it. “You have not given the Mother of Miasma her due, O Thorpesville; pray to her, and build unto her a shrine, for until she is appeased, your homes shall be wracked with plague!”

Gods curse as well as bless to gain reverence, after all.

Pleh
2018-07-15, 09:22 AM
In a world of unquestionably objective morality, you will get people who do what we already do with “evil” here, only more so. “Evil is sexy,” or “evil is misunderstood,” or even “they call it ‘evil,’ but it actually is necessary and better than so-called ‘good.’”

From my point of view, the Jedi are evil.

Segev
2018-07-15, 09:26 AM
From my point of view, the Jedi are evil.

Eh, I put the Jedi/Sith divide along Law/Chaos lines. It just happens that the Soth have always also bent towards evil. Their actual code is more chaotic and doesn’t require the evil they use it to justify.

Bohandas
2018-07-15, 10:09 AM
In a universe where Good and Evil are as tangible and objective as fire and water, and where people can meet entities literally composed of one of those alignments, there's less ambiguity.

Yes, but it's not totally gone.

After all, what's the philosophical significance of fire and water? Different people will tell you different things and a lot of them will tell you they have no philosophical significance except as a metaphor.

SimonMoon6
2018-07-15, 10:33 AM
But even without that, an evil god’s worshipper might say that he’s “evil,” but that that’s just a label allied by the weak and scared to the strength and power that his god grants.

That halfling that he stabbed to death in he checkout line was weak, or he’d have been able to prevent the murder. Nerull justifies his follower in that action, because Nerull isn’t some pansy who pretends Death isn’t coming for us all the eventually anyway.


Yeah, that's similar to Objectivism as espoused by Ayn Rand, a particular favorite of... a particularly evil member of the current House of Representatives, who I will not name.

And yeah, you can just look to the real world to see all the support for fascists and nationalists. Why would someone support such evil monsters? Why would someone support evil people who would put Jews, Japanese people, or even Latino/Hispanic children in concentration camps or detention centers? Well, just look to the real world for the answers: people are easily scared and want easy solutions to complex problems. Making some other group into the bad guys to be demonized makes the politician/god's work so much easier. People actually fall for that sort of stuff.

But they still won't see themselves as being in the wrong. And some of those people are terrible people, but some are just stupid or misinformed.

Bohandas
2018-07-15, 10:47 AM
Yes, but it's not totally gone.

After all, what's the philosophical significance of fire and water? Different people will tell you different things and a lot of them will tell you they have no philosophical significance except as a metaphor.

Plus, what even is fire? There are some people who will insist that any redox reaction is fire, even rusting and cellular metabolism, and conversely there are some people who will insist that there has to be an actual flame

Pleh
2018-07-15, 12:35 PM
Eh, I put the Jedi/Sith divide along Law/Chaos lines. It just happens that the Soth have always also bent towards evil. Their actual code is more chaotic and doesn’t require the evil they use it to justify.

Eh. Sith are only chaotic in seeking zero limitations on themselves. They classically also seek to use their power to establish lawful evil tyranny over *everyone else*.

Likewise, Jedi are acsetic, but support democratic governance. Law for themselves, freedom for everyone else. They intervene in others to defend the powerless and the innocent.

Sith definitely fall under the "pragmatic" excuse for evil. "Once more the sith shall rule the galaxy, and we shall have peace."

Law and order might not be the best metric for them.

Calthropstu
2018-07-15, 04:46 PM
Sure, not ''all'', just ''most''. The same way ''most'' good people are fine with helping others...but ''some'' good folks have remorse about wasting time and money and effort on people that need help.

And sure, anyone that ''falls'' or ''somehow'' becomes an alignment unwillingly, might very well dislike who they have become. But a person having a weak will is what makes a lot of drama for plots and stories.

Well, murder is just for the Neurll example. And note, Neurll is also a god of trickery.

I'd protest at most even. Think of how many people commit murder as opposed to assualt, rape, blackmail, fraud, theft etc.

Murder is the worst thing you can do. You steal their entire future for your own selfish reasons. You end all their moments, their potential, sever their connections with others and others' connections with them. And usually it's for something stupid.

You can be evil without being a monster.

SimonMoon6
2018-07-15, 05:02 PM
Murder is the worst thing you can do.

That's debatable.

Personally, I'd rather be murdered than, say, tortured for extended periods of time... or mutilated. When someone is dead, all their pain is finally over, but forcing someone to live in agony or disfigurement? Every day *wishing* they were dead? That seems a bit worse to me, though YMMV.

That's why there's a phrase "A fate worse than death." There are worse things that can happen to someone.

Darth Ultron
2018-07-15, 05:14 PM
I'd say that, if anything, "Card-Carrying villains" who admit that they are evil, revel in it - these are the exception - and "the rule" is for the more self-delusionary kind of Evil character.

This is only true in the One Way type Universe where the One God says things are only HIS way. In such a place, everyone wants to be ''good''. But that is because such a place is hugely unbalanced: it is Good Only.


I'd protest at most even. Think of how many people commit murder as opposed to assualt, rape, blackmail, fraud, theft etc.

Murder is the worst thing you can do. You steal their entire future for your own selfish reasons. You end all their moments, their potential, sever their connections with others and others' connections with them. And usually it's for something stupid.

You can be evil without being a monster.

Sure, there are lots of ways to be evil. Though most good folks think any evil person is a 'monster'.

Of course, it is hard to talk about Good and Evil...as we can't really talk about evil.

And the books are of little help: they are written by extremely radical one sided narrow view Good(ish) people...and worse then that, they are written to be politically correct and safe.

Xuc Xac
2018-07-15, 05:41 PM
That's why there's a phrase "A fate worse than death." There are worse things that can happen to someone.

There's a phrase "A fate worse than death" because it's an 18th century euphemism for rape because they had weird ideas about virginity and the value of women. It was mostly used by historians writing about "barbarians" but Edgar Rice Burroughs used it in his very popular books about Tarzan and made it a more common phrase.

Calthropstu
2018-07-15, 05:45 PM
This is only true in the One Way type Universe where the One God says things are only HIS way. In such a place, everyone wants to be ''good''. But that is because such a place is hugely unbalanced: it is Good Only.



Sure, there are lots of ways to be evil. Though most good folks think any evil person is a 'monster'.

Of course, it is hard to talk about Good and Evil...as we can't really talk about evil.

And the books are of little help: they are written by extremely radical one sided narrow view Good(ish) people...and worse then that, they are written to be politically correct and safe.

Fortunately, we aren't under such constraints and may discuss the nature of good and evil freely.

In order to define them, we must understand the basic core of good and evil. What are they?

At its core, good is a deliberate sacrifice of self to aid others while evil is the deliberate harm of others to gain in self. At least, that is what it seems.

By that measurement, all manner of acts can be considered "good" and "evil." There are all manner of ways to perform good or evil under such a definition. For good, you can sacrifice time, money, objects or even risk your life in order to assist other people. For evil, you simply have to take from others, willing or not, in order to increase yourself.

Needless to say, most car salesmen in modern society would probably ping as evil under that definition.

Darth Ultron
2018-07-15, 05:58 PM
Fortunately, we aren't under such constraints and may discuss the nature of good and evil freely.

Sorry, this simply is not true.

In order to define them, we must understand the basic core of good and evil. What are they?



At its core, good is a deliberate sacrifice of self to aid others while evil is the deliberate harm of others to gain in self. At least, that is what it seems.

It is a good basic core, sure.



By that measurement, all manner of acts can be considered "good" and "evil." There are all manner of ways to perform good or evil under such a definition. For good, you can sacrifice time, money, objects or even risk your life in order to assist other people. For evil, you simply have to take from others, willing or not, in order to increase yourself.

Needless to say, most car salesmen in modern society would probably ping as evil under that definition.

While it is true that a good half of all salespeople are evil, it's a bit much to call out just the car ones.

In any society about half of the people will be good and half will be evil. And in a good or evil society, both types will lie about what they are in public. In a good society a evil guy will lie and say he is good...and in an evil society good guy will lie and say he is evil.

Anymage
2018-07-15, 06:25 PM
In any society about half of the people will be good and half will be evil. And in a good or evil society, both types will lie about what they are in public. In a good society a evil guy will lie and say he is good...and in an evil society good guy will lie and say he is evil.

Strongly disagree.

First, neutrals also exist. From even the most naive assumptions, that's only one third of a given population being evil.

Second, you open up a huge issue of population dynamics, because there's no reason to think that alignments are graded so that 33% of the population falls into each group. You have to ask just how extremely aligned somebody has to be to get a letter other than N on their character sheet. (Can you be Evil if you're just a little more caustic and greedy than average, or do you have to go out of your way to stab babies? If you can be Evil by just being a little more caustic and greedy, can you have Always Evil creatures like fiends who are only a bit more caustic and greedy than your average commoner? It gets complicated fast.) Then you have to ask what percent of the population falls into each group, which is by no means guaranteed to be 11% of the population falling neatly into each of the nine alignments.

Which ties back to the issue of Nerull worshippers. Somebody who thinks nothing of killing another person who becomes inconvenient will quickly be killed themselves. Possibly because some other Nerull worshiper found them inconvenient, possibly because less evil people around them banded together to take out what they saw as a mutual threat, possibly because a murderhappy society would quickly find that people with key skills were dead and that certain important jobs just didn't get done as a result. Neither half of all people or half of all societies - or even a third, if you remember neutrals - will be evil.

Bohandas
2018-07-15, 07:23 PM
That's debatable.

Personally, I'd rather be murdered than, say, tortured for extended periods of time... or mutilated.

Well in that case the worst thing would be breaking someone on the wheel or skinning them alive or crucifixion, as these combine elements of both


The point is that

"All evil people feel no remorse about committing murder" and "have not cared even a tiny bit about" committing murder - is a vast oversimplification.

This kind of "one-note evil" is not a requirement in D&D. There are evil characters who dislike the people they have become.


For that matter, murder is far from the only relevant Evil act. You could have an evil-aligned fraudster and con artist who would never dream of committing murder - but has committed so much other Evil, that they ping as Evil-aligned.

Yeah, like I've always assumed Vecna's cult, for example, to be more about blackmail than black magic

WindStruck
2018-07-15, 07:37 PM
I'm sorry.. half the people in any population good and half evil?

Maybe this video would interest you.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnL7sJYblGY

Dr paradox
2018-07-15, 07:42 PM
Depends somewhat on the god? Something like Asmodeus or Bane is pretty easy to understand, since they're all about Reward through Hierarchy. Asmodeus advocates a kind of corporate climber mentality, playing "the game" in order to rise through the ranks as ruthlessly as possible, while also espousing the importance of keeping the ladder itself intact. Bane, on the other hand, commands that all people function within their proper role without regard to the cost, as the only way that the organization as a whole can obtain prosperity.

Sometimes a society is just brainwashed and duped from birth, where they believe that it's validation enough to be noticed and "loved" by the god their society reveres. They don't need to actively commit evil, they just need to be subservient and tithe appropriately while the clergy and the leadership uses it all for their schemes.

Darth Ultron
2018-07-15, 07:46 PM
Strongly disagree.

First, neutrals also exist. From even the most naive assumptions, that's only one third of a given population being evil.

The thing is very, very, very few people are pure, true neutral. Most people will fall on the side of good or evil.



Second, you open up a huge issue of population dynamics, because there's no reason to think that alignments are graded so that 33% of the population falls into each group.

The way the game works, is if you do ''1%'' then that is enough. You can tell one lie just fine....but when you tell like a hundred lies a day: you are evil.



Which ties back to the issue of Nerull worshippers. Somebody who thinks nothing of killing another person who becomes inconvenient will quickly be killed themselves. Possibly because some other Nerull worshiper found them inconvenient, possibly because less evil people around them banded together to take out what they saw as a mutual threat, possibly because a murderhappy society would quickly find that people with key skills were dead and that certain important jobs just didn't get done as a result. Neither half of all people or half of all societies - or even a third, if you remember neutrals - will be evil.

This is just Good Bias. Oh ''evil will always turn on itself, so don't be evil...be good(wink wink)"

Think of Klingon society, from Star Trek: A Klingon can freely kill whenever they want. It's the typical way to get a raise or promotion. You have to obey the society laws about rank and standing...but your sure free to kill anyone equal or less then you are.

Drow society is even better: you can kill anyone...if you can get away with it(but they won't look too hard).

I know that good people want to think ''everyone is good"...it gives them warm fuzzy feelings...but that simply is not true.

hamishspence
2018-07-16, 12:18 AM
The thing is very, very, very few people are pure, true neutral. Most people will fall on the side of good or evil.

But a large proportion will be close enough to "the centreline" that they won't ping as Good or Evil - their alignment will be TN, even if they might have "evil tendencies" or "good tendencies".

PHB makes it clear that the typical alignment of humans is TN.

JoeJ
2018-07-16, 12:59 AM
PHB makes it clear that the typical alignment of humans is TN.

In 5e humans are all over the map. No alignment is common enough to be considered typical for them.

Dr paradox
2018-07-16, 01:39 AM
In 5e humans are all over the map. No alignment is common enough to be considered typical for them.

Just checked, the PHB does indeed specifically reference humans. It only says "many humans," but it uses the same language for saying that "many elves" are chaotic good and "many rogues and barbarians" are chaotic neutral.

Just seems like there are several different kinds of neutral. Some, like druids, treat true neutrality as a spiritual calling, and some just kinda don't give a **** about good or evil, law or chaos. They just want to get through the day, skim a couple office supplies off their job, and be able to rely on the constabulary to keep them from getting mugged.

thaco mike
2018-07-16, 01:46 AM
suppose everyone has their reasons. some maybe for power, some out of desperation, some because they're angry and want the world to hurt. Some are maybe tricked into it.

Bohandas
2018-07-16, 02:40 AM
But a large proportion will be close enough to "the centreline" that they won't ping as Good or Evil - their alignment will be TN, even if they might have "evil tendencies" or "good tendencies".


Probably the majority in fact

Misereor
2018-07-16, 03:59 AM
In an evil region or country, what is the motivation for people to follow evil gods?

Put yourself in their place, and remember the 15-15-70 rule.
In any given population, app. 15% will be good, no matter what, 15% will be bad no matter what, and 70% will just go along with what the accepted standard is. It can be broadly applied to cops, businesses, lawyers, voters, etc. and I assume D&D populations as well.

Now put yourself in the shoes of Joe Average in an evil society. Say the old Zhentil Keep in Faerun pre-3rd ed.

Joe lives in a city that is the only city around the Moonsea that hasn't been sacked by Humanoid hordes, something that Zhents take great pride in. He is a Zhent, and Zhents are tough people who do what is necessary to survive.

Joe is happy that the patron God of the Keep is Bane, because Bane is not a wuss god like Ilmater or Lathander, or someone who panders to pieous fanatics like Tyr or Torm. *Those* guys are totally evil. They've burnt down Bane knows how many temples and peaceful Zhent villages. And Tyr was the patron God of Phlan which holds the all-time Forgotten Realms record of "city burnt to the ground most times".

Joe also accepts Human sacrifices, because that is what religion requires, and besides only criminals are sacrificed anyway. This way their execution becomes an act of worship instead of senseless killing, and Zhents are raised to take their religion seriously. In fact, Zhentish families emulate the Bane/Loviatar relationship, with the father as head of the family and the mother as disciplinarian of family and the house servants/slaves. Zhents are tough because they are raised tough. Joe is happy to send his sons and daughters to war, to protect Zhent territory and trade interests. The youngest even joined the priesthood of Bane and was showing considerable promise until murdered by good-aligned "adventurers" (which is to say greedy brigands who hate the Keep because they're jealous and/or insane).

Other people in the Keep manipulate Joe. They perpetuate the narrative that Joe accepts, even if they don't particularly care about Joe or his family. They are useful tools, nothing more. These are the 15% bad people who play the game of power and exploitation. Some play at a high level and some at a low. Some are high priests and archmages, others are guildmasters and minor functionaries.

Yet other people (the 15% good) want Joe to be free. This does not mean that they automatically reject everything Zhentish, because they themselves are a product of their upbringing and social programming. And they certainly won't accept foreign armies sacking their city and killing their families. More likely they do little things to promote reform. Some might be driven to do more and perform drastic acts that will provoke change, but they are rare and hunted. Also, even when they don't end up on sacrificial altar, they will quite frequently end up doing more harm than good.


In short: Joe is the 70%. As long as he is not actively persecuted, Joe goes along with the system.
Bane is the system, so until the system is changed, Joe will worship Bane.

Calthropstu
2018-07-16, 04:25 AM
Put yourself in their place, and remember the 15-15-70 rule.
In any given population, app. 15% will be good, no matter what, 15% will be bad no matter what, and 70% will just go along with what the accepted standard is. It can be broadly applied to cops, businesses, lawyers, voters, etc. and I assume D&D populations as well.

Now put yourself in the shoes of Joe Average in an evil society. Say the old Zhentil Keep in Faerun pre-3rd ed.

Joe lives in a city that is the only city around the Moonsea that hasn't been sacked by Humanoid hordes, something that Zhents take great pride in. He is a Zhent, and Zhents are tough people who do what is necessary to survive.

Joe is happy that the patron God of the Keep is Bane, because Bane is not a wuss god like Ilmater or Lathander, or someone who panders to pieous fanatics like Tyr or Torm. *Those* guys are totally evil. They've burnt down Bane knows how many temples and peaceful Zhent villages. And Tyr was the patron God of Phlan which holds the all-time Forgotten Realms record of "city burnt to the ground most times".

Joe also accepts Human sacrifices, because that is what religion requires, and besides only criminals are sacrificed anyway. This way their execution becomes an act of worship instead of senseless killing, and Zhents are raised to take their religion seriously. In fact, Zhentish families emulate the Bane/Loviatar relationship, with the father as head of the family and the mother as disciplinarian of family and the house servants/slaves. Zhents are tough because they are raised tough. Joe is happy to send his sons and daughters to war, to protect Zhent territory and trade interests. The youngest even joined the priesthood of Bane and was showing considerable promise until murdered by good-aligned "adventurers" (which is to say greedy brigands who hate the Keep because they're jealous and/or insane).

Other people in the Keep manipulate Joe. They perpetuate the narrative that Joe accepts, even if they don't particularly care about Joe or his family. They are useful tools, nothing more. These are the 15% bad people who play the game of power and exploitation. Some play at a high level and some at a low. Some are high priests and archmages, others are guildmasters and minor functionaries.

Yet other people (the 15% good) want Joe to be free. This does not mean that they automatically reject everything Zhentish, because they themselves are a product of their upbringing and social programming. And they certainly won't accept foreign armies sacking their city and killing their families. More likely they do little things to promote reform. Some might be driven to do more and perform drastic acts that will provoke change, but they are rare and hunted. Also, even when they don't end up on sacrificial altar, they will quite frequently end up doing more harm than good.


In short: Joe is the 70%. As long as he is not actively persecuted, Joe goes along with the system.
Bane is the system, so until the system is changed, Joe will worship Bane.

Right on the mark. Most can't or don't want to think for themselves. They want to, NEED to, belong. The church of Bane is the primary authority. To go against it is well... Stupid. They're too strong.

I've run up against that in modern society. I stood up to some abusive policemen who were threatening to arrest the victim of a crime. Fortunately for me, the perp started struggling and yelling and screaming and the officer had to go and help, but other bystanders told me I was crazy and should mind my own business.

Most people really don't give a **** about others. So yeah... As long as they or their family aren't the ones being sacrificed or crushed underfoot or persecutef they're fine with it.

hamishspence
2018-07-16, 06:05 AM
Probably the majority in fact

Depends on the edition, and the setting. In Eberron it's something like 30% Good 40% Neutral 30% Evil. I don't know what it is for Greyhawk or Faerun - a little more - but maybe not as high as 50% Neutral.

Darth Ultron
2018-07-16, 01:30 PM
Depends on the edition, and the setting. In Eberron it's something like 30% Good 40% Neutral 30% Evil. I don't know what it is for Greyhawk or Faerun - a little more - but maybe not as high as 50% Neutral.

True neutral is rare, but you can say a lot of people are Neutral Good or Neutral Evil. Those two alignments do describe a LOT of people.

Neutral Good-They value both personal freedom and adherence to laws. They promote governments which hold broad powers, but do not interfere in the day-to-day lives of their citizens. They will follow the law unless more good can come from breaking the law. He will never betray a family member, comrade, or friend.

Neutral Evil-A neutral evil person does whatever she can get away with. They are out for themselves pure and simple.

But note: The Neutral Good guy IS a Good Guy, and the Neutral Evil guy is an Evil Guy. If your alignment has Good or Evil in it, you are a Good or Evil person.

Bohandas
2018-07-16, 08:00 PM
All of the alignments are rare. They each have about an 11% market share on average

Bohandas
2018-07-16, 08:05 PM
Put yourself in their place, and remember the 15-15-70 rule.
In any given population, app. 15% will be good, no matter what, 15% will be bad no matter what, and 70% will just go along with what the accepted standard is. It can be broadly applied to cops, businesses, lawyers, voters, etc. and I assume D&D populations as well.

Now put yourself in the shoes of Joe Average in an evil society. Say the old Zhentil Keep in Faerun pre-3rd ed.

Joe lives in a city that is the only city around the Moonsea that hasn't been sacked by Humanoid hordes, something that Zhents take great pride in. He is a Zhent, and Zhents are tough people who do what is necessary to survive.

Joe is happy that the patron God of the Keep is Bane, because Bane is not a wuss god like Ilmater or Lathander, or someone who panders to pieous fanatics like Tyr or Torm. *Those* guys are totally evil. They've burnt down Bane knows how many temples and peaceful Zhent villages. And Tyr was the patron God of Phlan which holds the all-time Forgotten Realms record of "city burnt to the ground most times".

Joe also accepts Human sacrifices, because that is what religion requires, and besides only criminals are sacrificed anyway. This way their execution becomes an act of worship instead of senseless killing, and Zhents are raised to take their religion seriously. In fact, Zhentish families emulate the Bane/Loviatar relationship, with the father as head of the family and the mother as disciplinarian of family and the house servants/slaves. Zhents are tough because they are raised tough. Joe is happy to send his sons and daughters to war, to protect Zhent territory and trade interests. The youngest even joined the priesthood of Bane and was showing considerable promise until murdered by good-aligned "adventurers" (which is to say greedy brigands who hate the Keep because they're jealous and/or insane).

Other people in the Keep manipulate Joe. They perpetuate the narrative that Joe accepts, even if they don't particularly care about Joe or his family. They are useful tools, nothing more. These are the 15% bad people who play the game of power and exploitation. Some play at a high level and some at a low. Some are high priests and archmages, others are guildmasters and minor functionaries.

Yet other people (the 15% good) want Joe to be free. This does not mean that they automatically reject everything Zhentish, because they themselves are a product of their upbringing and social programming. And they certainly won't accept foreign armies sacking their city and killing their families. More likely they do little things to promote reform. Some might be driven to do more and perform drastic acts that will provoke change, but they are rare and hunted. Also, even when they don't end up on sacrificial altar, they will quite frequently end up doing more harm than good.


In short: Joe is the 70%. As long as he is not actively persecuted, Joe goes along with the system.
Bane is the system, so until the system is changed, Joe will worship Bane.

Or how about an area ruled by a tyrannical totalitarian system. Where a lot of people don't support it, and so there are periodic revolutions. But the people have never known anything other than tyranny so the new regime is always more of the same. And so a lot of people wind up supporting tyranny because it's not the old tyrant; and those who took part in the revolution have also killed people to no good or productive end, and the souls keep rolling into baator

druid91
2018-07-16, 08:15 PM
A Lovely Chapter of a Lovely series that explains a few reasons for worshiping evil gods. (https://practicalguidetoevil.wordpress.com/2018/03/02/prosecution-i/)

Luccan
2018-07-16, 11:21 PM
To answer a few of the questions of the OP: No one outside orcs and some half-orcs worships Gruumsh. He doesn't even want their worship, he wants them to be swallowed up by his hordes of orcs. So if it's a racial deity, there's your answer. Keep in mind, racial deities don't want their chosen people to suffer, even the evil ones. The evil racial deities just want everyone else to suffer for existing. Or to be wiped out.

Erythnul is also almost entirely cults, because he's CE and the god of slaughter. You can't run an actual country on that line.

In fact, most evil deities are worshiped by secretive cults for power. If you want an evil deity's worship to be the popular religion, you need a hardliner like Hextor who will absolutely crush people's wills, but won't put them to the sword for fun. That starts rebellions. Or you make like the racial deities and build a culture where it's [evil deity+followers] vs everyone else. Because all the other gods are jerks and their priests didn't show up and heal people when the country had a plague. Basically, convince everyone the deity isn't evil. It helps if your common forms of worship don't involve too much humanoid sacrifice.

hamishspence
2018-07-17, 01:31 AM
All of the alignments are rare. They each have about an 11% market share on average

A case could be made that, for humans, since TN is the "typical" alignment for them, it may be slightly more common than the others. Though probably not common enough that, were they to be statted out in a MM, they would require "Often TN" in the alignment section, much less "Usually TN".

Since "humans tend toward no alignment".

Misereor
2018-07-17, 06:37 AM
Or how about an area ruled by a tyrannical totalitarian system. Where a lot of people don't support it, and so there are periodic revolutions. But the people have never known anything other than tyranny so the new regime is always more of the same. And so a lot of people wind up supporting tyranny because it's not the old tyrant; and those who took part in the revolution have also killed people to no good or productive end, and the souls keep rolling into baator

Too depressing for my taste. I think the players should, even just if in theory, have the option of fixing the big wrong of the setting.
Even better if they fix it, and wind up totally unappreciated or even vilified for it (if done right).

Anyway, IMO the best BBEGs, while certainly evil, don't actually care about evil or good and will use either, depending on circumstance, to further their goals.

They understand that the ultimate general is neither the one who wins a thousand battles or wins without fighting, but the one who gets his enemy to do whatever he wants.
They have no problem butchering sheep for meat, but are keenly aware that sheep also produce wool, and that happy sheep produce the most.
They will gladly use altruistic adventures who believe they are fighting for a just cause. It requires more finesse than blunt tools like Blackguards, Necromancers, or Orc hordes, but in many ways good aligned minions are much more dependable and certainly less likely to draw unwanted attention to the evil master plan.
They will bind their slaves not with chains of iron, but rather honor, privilege, affection, and most of all, purpose. And they should be crafted so cleverly that the wearers do not notice them, and even get angry if someone suggests they are chained.
They will alway keep convenient targets at hand for diverting attention. Always try to have one more layer of conspiracy for nosy troublemakers to pierce and think they have finally arrived at the truth.


Then again, such a BBEG wouldn't worship a cartoon villain god, and most campaigns have clearly cut good and evil gods, so probably not all that relevant to the thread. (Works just fine for Shadowrun though.)

Bohandas
2018-07-17, 09:45 AM
Too depressing for my taste. I think the players should, even just if in theory, have the option of fixing the big wrong of the setting.

Oh they do. All they need to do is anonymously kill the current tyrant and his heirs apparent. Kill him anonymously, and then leave. With no revolution and no charismatic Stalin-esque new leader waiting in the wings.


They will bind their slaves not with chains of iron, but rather honor, privilege, affection, and most of all, purpose. And they should be crafted so cleverly that the wearers do not notice them, and even get angry if someone suggests they are chained.

And of course this paves the way for anti-villains. Because the quickest most expedient way to break such chains would probably be the introduction of a zombie virus or something like that

Knaight
2018-07-17, 10:27 AM
Oh they do. All they need to do is anonymously kill the current tyrant and his heirs apparent. Kill him anonymously, and then leave. With no revolution and no charismatic Stalin-esque new leader waiting in the wings.

Because if there's anything that ensures a peaceful transition to a good government, it's having absolutely no replacement governmental infrastructure in place when you abruptly leave a surprise power vacuum and then don't even stick around afterwards.

Bohandas
2018-07-17, 12:09 PM
It wouldn't bring about a good government but it would bring about the chance for one, because at that point the next regime is up to chance. More importantly, in the admittedly likely case there is another tyrant the breakdown in infrastructure would mean he would have difficulty reestablishing totalitarian control, so in any case progress has been made

EDIT:
On a related note, if any of you out there play Paranoia, do you know if they ever revealed what P.UR.G.E. is an acronym for?

Grek
2018-07-17, 12:41 PM
Evil gods work better as an open offer to trade evil acts for power than as a specific creature whom the cult reveres or even admires.

Nerull is the God of Murder. If whispering, "I dedicate this murder to Nerull." over a freshly killed corpse blesses you with Pass Without Trace, you can be assured that murderers will be converting to Nerull en mass. If burning one item from every haul on a bloody altar protects you from getting caught stealing, you'll be getting the robbers and burglars in too. Murder one of your own soldiers for victory in battle? Sacrifice your firstborn to vultures for wealth? Eat a beggar to cure yourself of disease? And naturally, some offer the same deal, but with an unstated "Do it or I smite you."

Psyren
2018-07-17, 01:05 PM
Evil gods work better as an open offer to trade evil acts for power than as a specific creature whom the cult reveres or even admires.

Nerull is the God of Murder. If whispering, "I dedicate this murder to Nerull." over a freshly killed corpse blesses you with Pass Without Trace, you can be assured that murderers will be converting to Nerull en mass. If burning one item from every haul on a bloody altar protects you from getting caught stealing, you'll be getting the robbers and burglars in too. Murder one of your own soldiers for victory in battle? Sacrifice your firstborn to vultures for wealth? Eat a beggar to cure yourself of disease? And naturally, some offer the same deal, but with an unstated "Do it or I smite you."

Pathfinder has some rules for this kind of thing - namely the Deific Obedience feat (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Deific%20Obedience), which is a way for members of any class to do something a god likes and get this kind of divine pat on the head when they do.

Keltest
2018-07-17, 08:54 PM
It wouldn't bring about a good government but it would bring about the chance for one, because at that point the next regime is up to chance. More importantly, in the admittedly likely case there is another tyrant the breakdown in infrastructure would mean he would have difficulty reestablishing totalitarian control, so in any case progress has been made

EDIT:
On a related note, if any of you out there play Paranoia, do you know if they ever revealed what P.UR.G.E. is an acronym for?

I mean, its not literally impossible, but a descent into anarchy is pretty much never going to end by the entire population of a group getting together and mutually agreeing to form a government. That sort of thing just doesn't happen without extensive preparation, management and bargaining. Forming a government is hard, as it turns out. More likely, what will happen is that the nation will break apart into many warring factions, which assimilate and conquer each other until only one is left, Highlander style, at which point hey, you still probably have a tyranny, or at least a military dictatorship.

Knaight
2018-07-17, 10:39 PM
I mean, its not literally impossible, but a descent into anarchy is pretty much never going to end by the entire population of a group getting together and mutually agreeing to form a government. That sort of thing just doesn't happen without extensive preparation, management and bargaining. Forming a government is hard, as it turns out. More likely, what will happen is that the nation will break apart into many warring factions, which assimilate and conquer each other until only one is left, Highlander style, at which point hey, you still probably have a tyranny, or at least a military dictatorship.

That's definitely one major possibility - that said, when it comes to significant powers able to exploit the sudden power vacuum I'd look outward. Did this nation have neighbors? Do said neighbors still have intact governments? If so, I'd expect at least some of said neighbors to suddenly pick up some land. Which doesn't mean there won't also be elements of a civil war.

Kaptin Keen
2018-07-18, 01:46 AM
Evil gods work better as an open offer to trade evil acts for power than as a specific creature whom the cult reveres or even admires.

Nerull is the God of Murder. If whispering, "I dedicate this murder to Nerull." over a freshly killed corpse blesses you with Pass Without Trace, you can be assured that murderers will be converting to Nerull en mass. If burning one item from every haul on a bloody altar protects you from getting caught stealing, you'll be getting the robbers and burglars in too. Murder one of your own soldiers for victory in battle? Sacrifice your firstborn to vultures for wealth? Eat a beggar to cure yourself of disease? And naturally, some offer the same deal, but with an unstated "Do it or I smite you."

This is more or less the view I subscribe to. Even if the 'tradesmans' approach sounds more to me like devilry and deity.

For the same reason, my games don't really have 'evil' deities, but rather quite a few of what you might consider either flexible or questionable morals. A god such as Nerull - who is very comic book villain - would never make an appearance in my games, having Murder as your domain just doesn't convince me. Divine domains should be powerful ideals, or things people generally need or pray for: Fertility, harvest, prosperity. Or, alternatively, things people treat with respect because those who don't tend to fare poorly: Storms, the sea, nature in general.

And then I also follow the Eberron class of religion, where clerics are entirely disassociated from the alignment of their god. Not that I use alignment at all, of course. Rather, any cleric of any god can be good or evil.

Xuc Xac
2018-07-18, 03:26 AM
All of the alignments are rare. They each have about an 11% market share on average

Put Bill Gates in a room with 11 hobos and you've got 12 billionaires on average.

It could be 92% TN and 1% of each of the other 8 alignments or any other combination and the average is still the same 100%/9. The mode is much more useful than the mean.

hamishspence
2018-07-18, 06:06 AM
It could be 92% TN and 1% of each of the other 8 alignments or any other combination and the average is still the same 100%/9. The mode is much more useful than the mean.

The problem is that this contradicts "humans tend toward no alignment, not even Neutral"

Thus, TN must be rarer than that. How much rarer, we don't know.

Florian
2018-07-18, 06:22 AM
In an evil region or country, what is the motivation for people to follow evil gods? I get the whole worshiping-out-of-fear thing and the idea of appeasement, but are there any other models of society where the general population follow evil gods willingly?

The usual problem: When we're talking about an absolute and objective alignment system, like it is present in D&D, then all nine possible approaches are equally "right" and "good" and will lead to results.

I say "usual", because D&D has a history of botching the core concepts behind it. The four "extreme" alignments, LG, LE, CG and CE should generate equal results and be equally rewarding to their followers, something that TSR and WotC didn't manage, or as I guess, dare, to pull of.

Segev
2018-07-18, 10:23 AM
The usual problem: When we're talking about an absolute and objective alignment system, like it is present in D&D, then all nine possible approaches are equally "right" and "good" and will lead to results.

I say "usual", because D&D has a history of botching the core concepts behind it. The four "extreme" alignments, LG, LE, CG and CE should generate equal results and be equally rewarding to their followers, something that TSR and WotC didn't manage, or as I guess, dare, to pull of.

They all certainly lead to results. Whether those results are truly what people will want is an open question. People are often wrong about what they really want. Give a man all the entertainments, all the vices, all the free time, and all the sustenance and support he thinks he wants, and he will probably be less happy in the long run than the man who had to work for everything he has, who has to do jobs he may not always like to make his living, and who had to build that which he wanted for himself with his own hands. Human nature is in some ways inherently opposed to itself. We need a sense of accomplishment and worth that can be derived from genuinely doing something constructive, but we also have a tendency to resist the actual labor if we have alternatives.

Likewise, therefore, people may think they want what one alignment offers, and then wonder why they're less happy with the results than those who followed another alignment.

That said, yes. D&D treats all the alignments as "equal" when it comes to potential for eternal dispositional happiness. It assumes that, if you're genuinely Evil, and you truly live (or, um, "afterlive?") the principles of that alignment, you'll do best and be happiest on the appropriately-aligned plane in your afterlife. You would be miserable in the goody two-shoes upper planes, where you have to be nice and your nasty vices go unsated and your cleverness and might don't earn you power over others. Sure, you might be unhappy that you're not clever and mighty enough to be the oppressor rather than the oppressed, for now, but you have eternity in Hell to work your way up the ranks and kick others back down them.

The Chaotic planes lend themselves to personally empowering you to stand on your own, to teaching you self-reliance and how to enforce your personal desires on the world around you, as well as on other beings. Or at least, to enforce your right to your way of doing things without interference.

The Lawful planes lend themselves to promoting your ability to leverage relationships and agreements, social structures and cooperation, to gaining power within those structures and to manipulate them to get what you want, whether it's to be in the most powerful position you can trick, coerce, or legally loophole your way into, or to be in the best place to help others and see your talents put to the best use for the group.

The Good planes lend themselves to those who are empathic. Who care about others' happiness along with their own, and dislike suffering. The Evil planes lend themselves to those who use and abuse others for their own enjoyment.

Darth Ultron
2018-07-18, 03:17 PM
The problem is that this contradicts "humans tend toward no alignment, not even Neutral"

Well, sure, humans are special in D&D, they were even left out of the Monstrous Manual for political reasons...but all the other races are in there.

All most all beings of intelligence in the D&D universe have an alignment....except for the special humans, they are ''just there''. Ok, if you want to go by that one line in a book. It still leaves a huge non-human universe.

Lets take Elves then. The classic D&D evles live in a deep, old wood forest and don't like visitors at all, especially them humans. They keep humans out. The good elves just ''shoot an arrow close by" as a warning......but the Evil Elves, kill humans that get too close. This makes the typical elven boarder guard neutral evil, and shows how a large part of a society can be evil.

King of Nowhere
2018-07-18, 03:31 PM
Well, I didn't read all the posts because I just found this thread and it's pretty long, but my spin on it is, people will do almost anything, and consider it "normal", if they are indoctrinated that way from a young age. Also, people with an inclination for evil will easily pray to an evil deity.

The example i characterized better is the church of hextor. it tell people that they are free to pursue their interest and cheat other people as they like. they are free to oppress those weaker than they are in any way they want. in fact, it teaches that oppressing others is the greatest joy in life. people are attracted to it because most people think they are smarter and will cheat and oppress others. they do not realize how the religion says others are also free to cheat and oppress you, or how important that is. Its chief commandment is "do whatever the heck you please"; you ddon't have to pay taxes or work as a virtual slave or anything... except that there is the "gentlemen agreement": your lord also doesn't have to not cut your tongue, ears, nose, balls, toes, and any other bit of anatomy that is not strictly needed for working fields. So, you reach the gentlemen agreement that you will work 12 hours per day and have so many taxes that they will put you in debt slavery for sure, while your lord will not cut anything off from you.
Education is equally violent: bullying in schools is encouraged, among other things.
There are however a few things that keep the people loial even in this hellish situation.
The first is that the church of hextor grant equal opportunity to everyone. the children of the humblest of commoners will receive free schooling, and if he's good he will be given chances to rise. their current high wizard was perfectnobody perfectnobodysson. the current high lord is the descendant of a poor who was to be a human sacrifice (performed by pitting the victim, with a makeshift crude weapon, in single combat against the current champion, in high level magical gear) and managed to win the encounter. basically, people dream that they may become like their betters.
The second is that no matter how downtrodden you are, you can always pick on something weaker than you. the husband comes home from a day of drugery and beats his wife to feel better. the wife beats the children to feel better. the elder children beat the smaller children. the smaller children escape into the roads lookking for someone even smaller and weaker than themselves. and most people find a sort of happyness in that. it also make them unlikely to flee. many a potential refugee decided to stay in despotonia when he learned that in other nations he would not be allowed to beat other people, or that setting fire to the neighboor's shanty because it is casting shade on your own shanty is a crime. other good nations also try to keep out despotonian refugees because of how violent and cheating they are.
and that's how hextor can propagate his cult.
there are no rebellions because if you put together a bunch of armed paesants, they will kill each other for their petty squabbles of who's got the better wife or the better shanty oor get whipped a bit less.
also, because of how much the religion encourages evilness, despotonians are considered generally lawful evil, and on par with gruumsh-worshipping orcs.

A second example is the cult of vecna. under the current high priest (a lich who has been the current high priest for over 7 centuries) the religion came out in the open. they curtailed a lot on the evilness, and in fact the church of vecna doesn't really seem to commit much evilness. they still have some human sacrifices, but only on volunteers (they get thrown underwater in a cage with a combination lock. if you can find the combination before you drown, you survive. if you do, they think vecna told you the secret of the combination, and you are honored and become important. Survival rate is a few %. people volunteer because of that chance). they mostly pursue magical research, and while they have few qualms about it, and they seek secrets generally considered unhealty, they do no obvious evil. they also tried hard to stay in peace with everyone. because of that, while thhey are still allied with the other evil powers, they are considered the reasonable ones, and are often called as mediators. vecna's long term goal is to become leader in knowledge and have more of his followers take his path and ascend to godhood, so that those new gods will be allied of vecna and vecna will eventually dominate the pantheon. this plan is helped by peaceful cooperation, hence this new course. people living under vecna's heel don't even feel like they're living in an evil country, and in fact even enjoy a high standard of living. they have the best academies, and while they guard closely their secrets (by design) they welcome students and researchers from other religions if they can bring something of value. church of vecna is practically synonim with pragmatism and not antagonizing anyone. as they say, war is an awful wste of resources that could be devoted to research.
if they need some human testing, they kidnap people from wild areas, so that nobody will complain, or even notice. in fact, even those keeping an eye on vecna are vastly underestimating the extent tho which this happens.
all this is actually a front put by the current high priest as part of a cunning master plan, but the players still don't know it.

I still haven't characterized the church of nerull much, but they are the closest to a crappy dictatorship with 0% approval rate. for sure, they are a highly stratified society (but not so stratified that they won't encourage skill. all the countries in my world are highly meritocratic, because of how important it is to get as many high level people as you can). the rich have luxury, and the poor do menial work and can be chosen for human sacrifice. in fact, they breed the population to get more sacrifices, so chances of being chosen are small. and a strong focus on necromancy means a lot of undead are used to perform menial works, so even the life of common people isn't that bad. certainly much better than in places lacking a strong power.

orcs follow gruumsh because he tell that the stronger must rule and take what he wants. thiss includes women, who are considered like cattle. 90% of male orcs die before reaching adulthood. the others all have a harem of, on average, ten women. if they are smart enough to avoid picking the wrong fights, or strong enough to win them anyway, their lives are fun. those who would complain about the system are all dead.
Some orc tribes are unsatisfied with that and have different cultures. those tribes are no more evil than the average population of a slum. recently they started to unite in a real nation, after a fasighted warrior, survivor of a doomed invasion, realized that to keep up with the other races orcs need magic, and to get it they need schoools, libraries, tradesmen, mass agriculture to feed them all, and so on. So gruumsh's church is likely to change. currently, they named one of the PC their messiah, so that's likely to change even more.

EDIT: evil afterlives are crappy, but if you are strong or smart you can come on top of the pecking order, so successful evil people are happy in the afterlife. a former big bad,, for example, got into strategical tips with a balor, and managed to become an ally and befriend it. he rules a sizable swath of the afterlife now. he also got a succubus lover, who was impressed by his shrewd. When the pcs planeshifted to the lower planes, he thanked them for killing him, saying he has much more fun there

Chauncymancer
2018-07-22, 08:39 PM
... I think you misrepresent the truth, there.
...
No - it's about: If you pray to me, you can be as eternally cursed as I am! Who'd want that deal? All you have to do is throw away every shred of humanity, and I'll reward you with eternal suffering.
...
People did help him, he didn't personally go around impaling ten thousand ottoman footmen, I'm sure.
...
Even if, by all accounts, Vlad was a bit over the top, even for his own time.

And it's entirely true that throughout human history, people have followed absolutely awful leaders - they still do it today, and not just in wierd, distant developing countries either - but that's not the deal were talking about here.

You can be a good guy (m/f) and follow a terrible leader in good (or bad for that matter) faith, without consigning your soul to eternal suffering.

You cannot worship Nerull and expect anything good of any kind to come from it, for anyone - least of all yourself. It's exclusively for the totally derailed. And I've seen the totally derailed. None of them worship Nerull either. They're mostly just pathetic, scared and lost.
...
And there is no benefit - zero. You throw away your morals and your humanity to become a loveless, hateful existance - so you can eventually be murdered by someone just like you, but younger, and suffer for all eternity in hell.
My point in picking Vlad Tepes was not a dracula reference: he was just the famous, uncontroversial evil political figure i could think of who was old enough that his evil wouldnt be a rl political issue.
Open wikipedia to the evil politician of your choice and ask "if killing this dictator had been impossible, if they had power to perfectly see anything within 1 mile of one of their operatives, and if joining their totalitarian government gave you super-powers, would they have had more followers, or fewer?"
The message of an evil god is the message of gangs, conspiracies, and totalitarian governments everywhere "Thats for the sheep. Not you, you're special. You're going to be the guy kicking down the oppressed sheep. When you die, you're going to be the one who stabs the larvae with a black iron pitchfork, not the larvae being stabbed."



An evil society would likely worship evil gods, who reward them for accomplishing evil things on their agenda, but the society itself still has rules, law, and structure, which even the evil people punish for breaking.

As a rule, the law says "we pick out these people, do whatever cruel things you want to them. But nobody else mind you. Just Those People"

Darth Ultron
2018-07-22, 09:01 PM
The message of an evil god is the message of gangs, conspiracies, and totalitarian governments everywhere "Thats for the sheep. Not you, you're special. You're going to be the guy kicking down the oppressed sheep. When you die, you're going to be the one who stabs the larvae with a black iron pitchfork, not the larvae being stabbed."

Though to be fair, this is also the massage of Good: Do as we say, and you will get a reward.




As a rule, the law says "we pick out these people, do whatever cruel things you want to them. But nobody else mind you. Just Those People"

Though, note, in D&D mortals can't just pick what is good or evil...the cosmos sets that. But people have no problem making others, often others not like them, targets.

Bohandas
2018-07-22, 11:53 PM
Though, note, in D&D mortals can't just pick what is good or evil...the cosmos sets that. But people have no problem making others, often others not like them, targets.

Yeah, but the population sets the cosmos, at least in the settings that were part of Planescape (Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Spelljammer, pretty much everything except Eberron)

Bohandas
2018-07-23, 02:56 AM
The message of an evil god is the message of gangs, conspiracies, and totalitarian governments everywhere "Thats for the sheep. Not you, you're special. You're going to be the guy kicking down the oppressed sheep. When you die, you're going to be the one who stabs the larvae with a black iron pitchfork, not the larvae being stabbed."

Well, Lawful Evil and Neutral Evil at any rate. Chaotic Evil is more like "Let's see them try to run an effective repressive regime while literally everything and everyone is on fire." And then Lawful Evil's like "we brought in some efreeti to manage the places you set on fire", and then Chaotic Evil's like "while you were doing that we collapsed all the mines, and good luck rebuilding them because all the miners were inside"