Half-Elf + Elf = Half-Elf?

[DnDegenerates]

Hey DnDers,

I have a question for you. We're making characters for an upcoming Homebrew game and a question came up about a particular NPC who's parents are a halfelf & an elf.

I described the NPC as a high charisma halfelf without using the word to keep it ambiguous because I was unsure.

Am I correct in assuming a halfelf and Elf make a baby halfelf?

Thank you!

-Dungeons & Degenerates

Bonus question!

I know a dwarf and orc make a stocky halforc due to an NPC in a forgotten realms Adventure.

How do half races work in general?!?

[Sigreid]

If I remember right they published long ago:

Elf + elf = human
Half elf + half elf = half elf
Half elf + elf = elf
Half elf + human = human
Human + human = human

[Trask]

I don't know if theres an "official" lore stance on this, but if you go to something like Lord of the Rings (no doubt a source of inspiration for the Half-Elf race), Aragorn has Elf blood in him because of his Kingly heritage. He lives far beyond the years a normal man could live, he is over a hundred years old during the course of the story.

But we never read any description of him as being particularly Elf-like. This would lead me to believe that any amount of Elf blood is enough to change an individual into something more than human.

[2D6GREATAXE]

If I remember right they published long ago:

Elf + elf = human
Half elf + half elf = half elf
Half elf + elf = elf
Half elf + human = human
Human + human = human

Now that's definitely a typo :)

[PhantomSoul]

Elf + elf = human
Half elf + half elf = half elf
Half elf + elf = elf
Half elf + human = human
Human + human = human

(Emphasis mine)

Geez, keeping the Elven race from dying off sure is complicated -- and no such thing as "purebred Elves"!

[Sigreid]

Now that's definitely a typo :)

Woof. That's crossed wires in the noggin.

Elf + elf = elf

And they went into it in the 80s in the FR grey box set, actually.

[Kurald Galain]

Am I correct in assuming a halfelf and Elf make a baby halfelf?

That depends. Using standard Mendelian / Punnett genetics, you'd have a 50% chance each of elf or half-elf; and the offspring of two half-elves would have a 25% chance each of being human or elven, and 50% chance of half-elf.

:smallbiggrin:

[SirGraystone]

If you live in an elven city aren't you half-human?

[Ganymede]

If I remember right they published long ago:

Elf + elf = human
Half elf + half elf = half elf
Half elf + elf = elf
Half elf + human = human
Human + human = human

That is an old chart. The current chart is in Xanathar's on page 62. It is not exhaustive of every possibility (it doesn't discuss the possibility of full-blood elf and human offspring from these unions), but it does confirm that a half-elf can be born of elf + half-elf parentage. Likewise, a half-elf can also be born of human + half-elf parentage.



Am I correct in assuming a halfelf and Elf make a baby halfelf?


This union can result in a half-elf offspring, but it is not foregone. Check page 62 of Xanathar's for the chart.


I know a dwarf and orc make a stocky halforc due to an NPC in a forgotten realms Adventure.

How do half races work in general?!?

This is talked about in the Monster Manual.

"When an orc procreates with a non-orc humanoid of similar size and stature (such as a human or a dwarf), the resulting child is either an orc or a half-orc."

[Sigreid]

If you live in an elven city aren't you half-human?

Dragon Lance had a good response to this. The half elf character explained that to humans, half an elf was part of a whole while half a man is a cripple.

[Willie the Duck]

How do half races work in general?!?

I do not want to steer you wrong, since 5th edition is not required to hew to any previous edition, or to LotR, or anything else.

In previous editions, half-elves worked such that any amount of human ancestry in an otherwise elf-full lineage made you a half-elf, while getting over 50% human tended to slide you from being half-elf to being a human with 'that one elven ancestor.' I do not believe half-orcs had those same rules spelled out so exactingly (I'm not sure it was expected that a half-orc was ever going to get an opportunity to breed. Or maybe it just wasn't as important/got nixed along with the half-orc for most of 2nd edition).

Whether dwarves could be part of a mixed-breed pairing seemed to have varied a bit. At times, anything other than elf-human and orc-human hybrids tended to become Mongrelmen (which was not a good thing, you might have a lobster claw for a hand for no well-explained reason, and your PC advancement was woefully limited).

I'm pretty sure most of that has gone by the wayside.

As to LotR, well, this is D&D, not LotR. But Mike Mornard (the guy who suggested to Gygax including half-elves in D&D) acknowledges that Elrond (not Aragorn) was the inspiration. In that series, yes Aragorn and the other Dúnedain were said to have elven blood that gave them long lives and perhaps elven wisdom (although some of that might also Aragorn being raised in Rivendell). Elrond (1/4 human) and Arwen (1/8th) each have the option of choosing to be elven or human, and that is reflected in certain versions and game worlds of D&D such as BECMI's Known World/Mystara, where a child of elf and human is treated as one or the other, rather than a specific separate race.


But honestly, play it the way you see fit. What the rule books have arrived at at this specific point, 44 years into the game, is relatively immaterial.

[DnDegenerates]

So..

An elf and a halfelf make babies.

Which can result in a halfelf, but that halfelf can also have an elf sibling?!?

What about twins?

This is much more interesting than I originally thought.

[Sigreid]

So..

An elf and a halfelf make babies.

Which can result in a halfelf, but that halfelf can also have an elf sibling?!?

What about twins?

This is much more interesting than I originally thought.

If you apply relatively normal genetics you could have fraternal twins one elf, one half elf. I suppose with 2 half elves you could, theoretically have one of each in triplets.

[Willie the Duck]

So..

An elf and a halfelf make babies.

Which can result in a halfelf, but that halfelf can also have an elf sibling?!?

What about twins?

This is much more interesting than I originally thought.

Who are you asking, and using which metric, Kurald Galain 's Mendelian/Punnett genetics answer, my traditional D&D answer (and LotR side topic), Sigreid's chart (whose source I'm not clear on), or Ganymede's response about what is in 5e's XGtE?

[Sigreid]

Who are you asking, and using which metric, Kurald Galain 's Mendelian/Punnett genetics answer, my traditional D&D answer (and LotR side topic), Sigreid's chart (whose source I'm not clear on), or Ganymede's response about what is in 5e's XGtE?

The chart was from the grey box Forgotten Realms campaign setting from the 80's. The information was revealed in the description of a half elf village to explain how you can have second, third, 4th etc. generation half elves.

[GlenSmash!]

Hey DnDers,

I have a question for you. We're making characters for an upcoming Homebrew game and a question came up about a particular NPC who's parents are a halfelf & an elf.

I described the NPC as a high charisma halfelf without using the word to keep it ambiguous because I was unsure.

Am I correct in assuming a halfelf and Elf make a baby halfelf?

Thank you!

-Dungeons & Degenerates

Bonus question!

I know a dwarf and orc make a stocky halforc due to an NPC in a forgotten realms Adventure.

How do half races work in general?!?

It depends on how the player wants to describe their character's backstory, and represent said character with mechanics, subject to approval by the DM of course.

If one of my players' character is Quarter-Elven I would simply let them choose between Half-Elf or Elf.

[Nifft]

If I remember right they published long ago:

Elf + elf = gnome
Half elf + half elf = changeling
Half elf + elf = elf
Half elf + human = human
Human + human = half-orc

This explains a lot. :wink:

[Toadkiller]

More seriously - I think the player should just pick if they want to play an elf or half elf under the circumstances described. Which would handle the mechanics. Everything else can be done as exposition.

[Sigreid]

This explains a lot. :wink:

That's funny

[VoxRationis]

@Kurad Galain: Mendelian genetics won't really apply here in a Punnett square-friendly way. There are too many traits, and a lot of the traits are likely polygenic.

My 2nd edition handbook specifies that any amount of human ancestry makes an elf-descended individual a half-elf or human. I don't think any part of 5th makes a distinction, but I haven't read the elf section of Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes too closely (I find it generally a little too setting-specific for my tastes); maybe there's an update there.

[RocksInMyDryer]

It seems to me that in a 5E game, using Xanathar's Guide as a source is your best bet. It kind of overrides all other sources. That said, there's one book everyone's been overlooking as a source. 3.5's Book of Erotic Fantasy tackles half-elf pregnancies. According to it, a half-elf always gives birth to a "true" member of either race.

So, if the other parent is a human, the child will be a human, though with some physical traits of the half-elf parent (slightly more pointed ears and a slender build are listed as examples). If the other parent is an elf, the child will be a full elf, but with some slightly more human physical qualities.

[clem]

If I remember right they published long ago:

Elf + elf = human
Half elf + half elf = half elf
Half elf + elf = elf
Half elf + human = human
Human + human = human

And I thought Slaad reproduction was complicated. :-)

[leogobsin]

It seems to me that in a 5E game, using Xanathar's Guide as a source is your best bet. It kind of overrides all other sources. That said, there's one book everyone's been overlooking as a source. 3.5's Book of Erotic Fantasy tackles half-elf pregnancies. According to it, a half-elf always gives birth to a "true" member of either race.

So, if the other parent is a human, the child will be a human, though with some physical traits of the half-elf parent (slightly more pointed ears and a slender build are listed as examples). If the other parent is an elf, the child will be a full elf, but with some slightly more human physical qualities.

To be fair, people are 'overlooking' it because it's (Very Decidedly) a non-official book that wasn't 'canon' even when it was released.

[Lord Vukodlak]

There are a couple ways to play this.
For one way I direct you to this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZzxegTKcbg) just replace Saiyan with Elf. To sum up the video due to a single gene.

Elf+Human=Half-Elf

Half-Elf+Human=50/50 of being either Half-Elf or Human.
Half-Elf+Half-Elf 50/50 of being half-elf and a 1/4 chance of being either Elf or Human.
Half-Elf+Elf=50/50 of being either Half-Elf or Elf

If you come from ten generations of Half-Elves you are every bit as much of a Half-Elf as your ancestor at G1. (G0 being the Elf)
—

A more complicated way would involve multiple genes rather then a single one. If you have both genes you're a full-blooded Elf. But the first gene is not passed down when interbreeding with a non-elf its simply incompatible.
In this way.
Elf+Human=Half-Elf

Half-Elf+Human=50/50 of being either Half-Elf or Human.
Half-Elf+Half-Elf 3/4 chance of being Half-Elf and a 1/4 chance of being human
Half-Elf+Elf=Would be a Half-Elf.

The prime Elf-Gene is lost when interacting with human DNA. So you can never get back to full-blooded Elf. It would play into Elven thoughts of superiority. While allowing several generations of Half-Elves.

[RocksInMyDryer]

To be fair, people are 'overlooking' it because it's (Very Decidedly) a non-official book that wasn't 'canon' even when it was released.

But how often do you get to start pulling quotes from the most ridiculous sourcebook that ever was? It definitely gets style-points.

[holywhippet]

In Dragonlance the son of Tanis (a half elf) and Laurana (an elf) is himself only a half elf AFAIK so in that setting at least the half elf+elf = elf rule doesn't apply.

[Hecuba]

Dragon Lance had a good response to this. The half elf character explained that to humans, half an elf was part of a whole while half a man is a cripple.

Well, that was the answer that Tanis gave to Riverwind- the xenophobic human barbarian. But he also mused about the fact that the elves did call him the equivalent of Tanis half-human, if memory serves.

[Kane0]

See, this is why I have only three humanoid races when I run games, and they don't mix.

[Tetrasodium]

Hey DnDers,

I have a question for you. We're making characters for an upcoming Homebrew game and a question came up about a particular NPC who's parents are a halfelf & an elf.

I described the NPC as a high charisma halfelf without using the word to keep it ambiguous because I was unsure.

Am I correct in assuming a halfelf and Elf make a baby halfelf?

Thank you!

-Dungeons & Degenerates

Bonus question!

I know a dwarf and orc make a stocky halforc due to an NPC in a forgotten realms Adventure.

How do half races work in general?!?

I think that this (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20040906a) article from 2004 might help you. This particular section even answers the question


he genetics of the Khoravar are unusual. Many alchemists and sages are amazed that it is possible for humans and elves to interbreed at all. When a human and half-elf conceive, the resulting child has an equal chance to have the race of either parent. In all other cases -- human and elf, half-elf and half-elf, and elf and half-elf -- the result is always the same: a half-elf child. The Aereni claim that this is not a matter of physiology or genetics, but of magic; the blood of the elves holds the light of ancient Xen'drik, and once diluted it can never be regained. Whether this is true is a matter for each DM to decide.
but the article gives a lot of good information that might help. One thing to keep in mind with that article is that the setting has but does not generally differentiate between different types of elves/dwarves/etc like forest/high/hill/mountain/etc because they are just elves/dwarves/etc

[GreyBlack]

Based on a rudimentary punnet square, the offspring of an elf and a half elf has a 50% chance to be born a half elf. See if you can talk your DM into that logic.

[hamishspence]

In Dragonlance the son of Tanis (a half elf) and Laurana (an elf) is himself only a half elf AFAIK so in that setting at least the half elf+elf = elf rule doesn't apply.

It may also be a case of "It varies". Maybe, if you "dilute the human genes enough" you can have a "full elf" with only slight human physical traits, but elf statline.

[Unoriginal]

Fun 5e fact from the Mordenkainen's: since elves have tangible evidences that each elf newborn is the reincarnation of a dead elf's soul, they're not really sure what to make of half-elves. Are they half-souls? Elf souls in half-elven bodies? Human souls in half-human bodies?

[Lombra]

Personal opinion:

As a guideline, I like to use this: only pure identical parents can produce pure offsprings.

If at least one of the parents is of a different race, then the offspring has to be a half-something.

So within my line of thought:
Elf + elf = elf
Human + human = human

Elf + human = helf
Helf + helf = helf
Helf + human = helf
Helf + elf = helf

So if an helf is involved, the offspring will always be an helf, plus, you get helf if human and elf breed together.

[AureusFulgens]

As another interesting aside: I was just flipping through the old 3.5e Eberron Campaign Setting, and that book states that Eberron half-elves are actually a separate, true-breeding race that just happens to have ancestry in hybridization between humans and elves. Which I thought was a neat solution for exactly this reason. Half-races drive me up a wall. (I'd already been using a similar fix in my own world. Half-orcs are orcs, half-elves are a different elven subrace.)

In any case, I think that it's best to take the standard "elf," "half-elf," and "human" racial traits as rough approximations. If your dad was an elf and your mom was a half-elf, then... well, maybe you take after Dad and you're more elvish, so go with elf, or maybe you take after Mom and you're a little more mixed, so go with half-elf. "Elf" and "human" are both fairly complicated biological-magical phenotypes with a lot of components that are presumably not all bundled together (I doubt there's a single Elf Gene on each chromosome, if there are even chromosomes at all).

All that being how I would handle it rather than official source material, mind you.

[JeffreyGator]

p.62 of Xanathar's answers this question for 5e.

half-elven parents
human + elf
Elf + half-elf
human + half-elf
half-elf + half+elf

interestingly teiflings is a recessive gene and could come from 2 human parents.

[mgshamster]

In a D&D satire novel I'm readin (Orconomics), heratige works like this:

Race + Same race = Same race
Race + Different race = human (this is how humans came about; as an accident of crossbreeding that the gods didn't intend when they made the other races)

And then there's dwarves. No one knows how dwarves breed. Dwarves don't talk about it - ever. No one has ever seen a female dwarf. All anyone knows is that a dwarf goes away for a bit, and then comes back with a little bearded bundle of joy that they raise themselves.

[DnDegenerates]

p.62 of Xanathar's answers this question for 5e.

half-elven parents
human + elf
Elf + half-elf
human + half-elf
half-elf + half+elf

interestingly teiflings is a recessive gene and could come from 2 human parents.

Whoaaaaa. So in FR everyone with a "momma hooked up with a demon" backstory is misinformed when it comes to the truth of their tiefling traits.

[leogobsin]

Whoaaaaa. So in FR everyone with a "momma hooked up with a demon" backstory is misinformed when it comes to the truth of their tiefling traits.

Well they are misinformed, but not for the reason you're thinking. Teiflings come from Devils, not Demons, but '1 human 1 devil' is one of the possible tiefling parentages in Xanathar's.

[hamishspence]

I got the impression that all the past origins for tieflings (demon, evil god, night hag, etc) are valid as well as "devil" - it's just that, thanks to Asmodeus, all tieflings now look devilish, and devils account for the vast majority of tieflings in the present day.

[RedMage125]

The chart was from the grey box Forgotten Realms campaign setting from the 80's. The information was revealed in the description of a half elf village to explain how you can have second, third, 4th etc. generation half elves.

From what I remember, any union of half elves + anything will usually result in a half-elf.

EXCEPTION: It is POSSIBLE, through sufficient dilution of elven blood through enough generations, for a half-elf and a human to have a human.

And most importantly, once elf blood is diluted with non-elf blood, a true elf will never again result. No matter how many times you breed back into the elf population, the children will always be half-elves.

[krugaan]

(Emphasis mine)

Geez, keeping the Elven race from dying off sure is complicated -- and no such thing as "purebred Elves"!

Elf = Asari, lol

[SaurOps]

Based on a rudimentary punnet square, the offspring of an elf and a half elf has a 50% chance to be born a half elf. See if you can talk your DM into that logic.

As noted above by another poster, that would assume that both parts were just one trait. Mendelian squares tend to go into oversimplification to teach beginners the concept, but compacting every trait in an entire human or human-like being into a single allele is in an entirely different league of oversimplification.

[GreyBlack]

As noted above by another poster, that would assume that both parts were just one trait. Mendelian squares tend to go into oversimplification to teach beginners the concept, but compacting every trait in an entire human or human-like being into a single allele is in an entirely different league of oversimplification.

Eh. I was at work; I couldn't map the entire elven genome in the time it took to write the post.

[Kurald Galain]

Eh. I was at work; I couldn't map the entire elven genome in the time it took to write the post.

What about the gnome genome? :smalltongue:

[napoleon_in_rag]

Let's get more complicated:

Elf + Tiefling = ????

I mean, a Tiefling is a human with a cursed blood line. So do you get a cursed half-elf? A Tiefling with pointy ears? An Elf with horns?

[Anonymouswizard]

Another reason why all human games are best.

For held+tied, mechanically held, tied, or human. Appearance-wise, probably looking like a human with some elven and devilish traits, maybe leaning more towards one side or another.

I too treat half-orcs as full blooded orcs, and all half-breeds mechanically take after one parent instead of being their own race. Although I run the same setting in both 5e and Fantasy AGE, and mainly the latter each days, and with Fantasy AGE I allow anybody to make use of the mixed parentage rules (mainly one race, but one of your benefit rolls is from the other), because every race has been breeding with the others so long that sometimes forgotten ancestry presents itself (which can leading to weird things like a human and an orc having a child that's mechanically orc/elf, or a dwarf and suarian having a suarian/gnome kid).

[GreyBlack]

Another reason why all human games are best.

For held+tied, mechanically held, tied, or human. Appearance-wise, probably looking like a human with some elven and devilish traits, maybe leaning more towards one side or another.

I too treat half-orcs as full blooded orcs, and all half-breeds mechanically take after one parent instead of being their own race. Although I run the same setting in both 5e and Fantasy AGE, and mainly the latter each days, and with Fantasy AGE I allow anybody to make use of the mixed parentage rules (mainly one race, but one of your benefit rolls is from the other), because every race has been breeding with the others so long that sometimes forgotten ancestry presents itself (which can leading to weird things like a human and an orc having a child that's mechanically orc/elf, or a dwarf and suarian having a suarian/gnome kid).

I do disagree on the point that all human games are best. However, human _based_ games, I'll agree with. Make it clear that humans are the norm and all other races are rare to the point of nonexistence. It's not that they don't exist, they're just really rare.

[CharonsHelper]

I seem to remember 3.5 Eberron mentioning that any amount of human ancestry precluded their descendant from being a full-blooded elf, though that would be setting specific.

[N810]

Math would say that they would be a 3/4 elf. :amused: