Find Greater Steed plus Magic Jar?

[JoeJ]

As suggested by a certain very persistent kook.

My first reaction was that the idea of sharing Magic Jar was ridiculous, but as written, it is a spell that only targets the caster (common sense notwithstanding). So would it work? My RAF take is that it technically would, but it would be very far from an optimal choice, since the mount would use it's own proficiency and ability bonuses to set the saving throw to possess anybody.

Any other thoughts?

[MaxWilson]

As suggested by a certain very persistent kook.

My first reaction was that the idea of sharing Magic Jar was ridiculous, but as written, it is a spell that only targets the caster (common sense notwithstanding). So would it work? My RAF take is that it technically would, but it would be very far from an optimal choice, since the mount would use it's own proficiency and ability bonuses to set the saving throw to possess anybody.

Any other thoughts?

You'd wind up sharing the container with your steed. I guess you can think of it as a kind of limited Shapechange into a ghost, which makes the point that the real weirdness here is all a function of Find Steed, not Magic Jar: spell sharing is weird. I agree that the steed would would wind up using its own proficiency and stats for possession, not yours.

Another interesting fact is that I don't think there anything to stop other wizards from sharing the container with y'all as well, other than the obvious fact that it might kill everyone whose body isn't nearby when one wizard ends the spell and destroys the container.

[Yarevu]

The Sorcerer shares Magic Jar with your find greater steed.... normally.

[Segev]

Seems like you could have both you and your steed possess separate beings from the same jar, sure.

[JoeJ]

Okay, so there's some agreement here. It's nutty, but I like it.

I'd say the application suggested in the sorcerer king thread, however, still doesn't work. Sharing a sorcerer spell, none of the creatures that can be called with find greater steed has a saving throw DC higher than 11 (for pegasus), and a drow mother has a charisma save bonus of +12. She succeeds without a die roll.

(I'm ignoring, obviously, the conveniently hand waved issue of how to get a soul container to within 100 feet of a very powerful spellcaster who is also, for good reason, one of the most paranoid beings in the multiverse.)

[MaxWilson]

Okay, so there's some agreement here. It's nutty, but I like it.

I'd say the application suggested in the sorcerer king thread, however, still doesn't work. Sharing a sorcerer spell, none of the creatures that can be called with find greater steed has a saving throw DC higher than 11 (for pegasus), and a drow mother has a charisma save bonus of +12. She succeeds without a die roll.

(I'm ignoring, obviously, the conveniently hand waved issue of how to get a soul container to within 100 feet of a very powerful spellcaster who is also, for good reason, one of the most paranoid beings in the multiverse.)

Just knock her unconscious and curse her with Bane, and optionally have a wild sorcerer standing by with Bend Luck. If it doesn't work, try again tomorrow.

But remember that if you ever end Magic Jar for yourself, it ends it for your steed as well and possibly kills it, as well as destroying the container.

Also, you're vulnerable to Dispel Magic.

It's interesting but still a bit niche. No better really than the typical "Magic Jar into a werebear's body for extra HP/physical stats/resistances/size" application, just more of it. Arguably you're better off keeping your steed in rideable form.

[JoeJ]

Just knock her unconscious and curse her with Bane, and optionally have a wild sorcerer standing by with Bend Luck. If it doesn't work, try again tomorrow.

But remember that if you ever end Magic Jar for yourself, it ends it for your steed as well and possibly kills it, as well as destroying the container.

Also, you're vulnerable to Dispel Magic.

It's interesting but still a bit niche. No better really than the typical "Magic Jar into a werebear's body for extra HP/physical stats/resistances/size" application, just more of it. Arguably you're better off keeping your steed in rideable form.

And to deliver the soul container to the matron, the wild sorcerer puts on a uniform and claims the gem is a Candygram (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8ciVBQixpU). I can't imagine how that wouldn't work.

[MaxWilson]

And to deliver the soul container to the matron, the wild sorcerer puts on a uniform and claims the gem is a Candygram (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8ciVBQixpU). I can't imagine how that wouldn't work.

This is D&D. When you want someone unconscious, you usually apply HP damage. Once she's down, you don't need to trick her with a Candygram.

Why quote me if you're not responding to what I wrote?

[JoeJ]

This is D&D. When you want someone unconscious, you usually apply HP damage. Once she's down, you don't need to trick her with a Candygram.

Why quote me if you're not responding to what I wrote?

Because I assumed you were joking and was replying in kind. Without the Candygram you'd need to think up some other way to get close to the matron. The drow are not exactly known for their hospitality, after all. Or for meeting with strangers alone.

Also, bane allows a charisma saving throw, which the matron makes at +12 with advantage, and even if that save fails, it only allows subtracting 1d4 from the subsequent magic jar save. That and the bend luck combined can, at most, reduce her bonus to +4 against a DC 11 save, made with advantage. Even with everything you mentioned stacked on, and handwaving how you got private access to her in the first place, it's still one heck of a Hail Mary play.

[MaxWilson]

Because I assumed you were joking and was replying in kind. Without the Candygram you'd need to think up some other way to get close to the matron. The drow are not exactly known for their hospitality, after all. Or for meeting with strangers alone.

Also, bane allows a charisma saving throw, which the matron makes at +12 with advantage, and even if that save fails, it only allows subtracting 1d4 from the subsequent magic jar save. That and the bend luck combined can, at most, reduce her bonus to +4 against a DC 11 save, made with advantage. Even with everything you mentioned stacked on, and handwaving how you got private access to her in the first place, it's still one heck of a Hail Mary play.

Oh, you thought I was joking? No, but I don't think it's something to count on either. Turning defeated enemies into thralls is something to be open to, especially in Combat As War campaigns, but it's tricky and not to be taken for granted as part of theorycrafting. (Nor can the presence of a friendly wild sorcerer be taken for granted.) It's not impossible to do but not easy either.

It's also kind of pointless because aside from her rather beefy HP and her magic tentacle rod, most of what makes a matron mother interesting is her class abilities, which you don't get access to via Magic Jar.

High cost, high effort, low reward. Arguably better just to keep your steed in its natural form as e.g. a Pegasus, for mobility.

P.S. I am not sure but I think multiple Bend Lucks might stack. Perhaps Simulacrum of the hypothetical wild mage might be in order. Unlikely in practice to be available though.

[JoeJ]

High cost, high effort, low reward. Arguably better just to keep your steed in its natural form as e.g. a Pegasus, for mobility.

I could see using it to turn your steed into a more powerful steed, but off the top of my head I can't think of too many things that are above CR 2, can carry a rider, are humanoid, and have a very low charisma save bonus.

[MaxWilson]

I could see using it to turn your steed into a more powerful steed, but off the top of my head I can't think of too many things that are above CR 2, can carry a rider, are humanoid, and have a very low charisma save bonus.

Even then you'd be stuck in Magic Jar form yourself, thus vulnerable to Dispel Magic. It's fine if you were planning on doing this anyway (E.g. werebear or Gloom Weaver body snatching) but there are all kinds of tactical and/or roleplaying reasons why you might not want to be trapped long-term in someone else's body, and you don't have the option of moving just your steed and not your self into a host body.

Note BTW that every wizard can do this because they can all Wish for Find Greater Steed. This isn't a Divine Soul trick only.

[ThePolarBear]

My first reaction was that the idea of sharing Magic Jar was ridiculous, but as written, it is a spell that only targets the caster (common sense notwithstanding).

As written, it also targets the creature that the spellcaster wants to possess.

Remember: even reading the "range" section of spellcasting you can only logically conclude that all spells that can target only you are Self, but not that all Self spells necessarily target only you.