The Vagabond [Angel Poop]

[Archiplex]

Hello and hello! I'm a bit of a wild homebrewer with a lot of opinions, and over time I've become profoundly disappointed in some of the core classes of the game; There's a bit of a 'cool-creep' in classes, sort of similar to power creep except it means later classes introduced are more fun, even if not as effective, to play as others. Due to this, I've started a small, half-assedly worked on project by the name of 'Angel Poop'; The only purpose of the project is to remake base classes into a better, more fun designed style. Power balance in pathfinder is somewhat easy to pay attention to, but I an a firm hater of wasted power balance; One of my biggest gripes with this in base pathfinder were rangers receiving 1/3 casting: A workable, but ultimately super boring filler to a class.

Sure, I could just try and spasm out archetypes in order to hopefully get my view of a ranger to what I want them to be... Or I could make my own- and fix all the other issues with core ranger while I'm at it! Thus, the first project I started on, I called the 'Vagabond'. The Ranger re-envisioned in how I think rangers should be.

Notable class features
1. Favored Enemy is now variabled; You collect trophies off creatures you kill, and can 'activate' them in your hideout to turn a creature of that type into your favored enemy- Otherwise, the same limits apply.
2. Combat Style has been changed to provide a core ability use (Different per ability, such as shields gaining reach on threatened ranged for AOO's, or crossbows gaining crit range) alongside extra feats.
3. A 'Hideout', which is a moveable chunk of land that acts as a favored terrain of your highest bonus, and protects you and your allies inside of it from predators.
4. Survival Techniques, an array of different abilities that grant you (as the name says) defensive or survivalistic bonuses.
5. Graces: A combo set of skill upgrades to allow the vagabond to at least fulfill some sort of skill niche besides 'tracking'.
6. PoW and SoM Archetypes, as well as a 3/4 caster archetype that can easily be translated to SoP!
And much.. much more (Plus more to come!)

I've worked on this class on and off for some time, although mostly in short bursts. I'm not a freelancer or anything like that (although I can dream..), so most of my effort is dictated by how people like the class or criticism; which is why I bring it here! I'd love to hear any notes or suggestions at all on the class!

And without delaying further, here it is!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/11dyIKDnGgxqXEhlsQpE5sOnqYe6sVJbS6kOOPKDJ4uM/edit?usp=sharing


I totally didn't just grind out 10 posts just to post this...

[Maat Mons]

Could I convince you to reconsider favored enemies? I don't mean your particular implementation. I'm saying it shouldn't be part of the ranger class at all. Allowing the ranger to change favored enemies helps, but I think a cornerstone class feature should be broadly applicable. As in, not only useful against certain creature types, even if those types are allowed to change.

Maybe there could be some ability themed on learning to fight certain foes, but I'd like to see it designed such that the knowledge gained in fights against them can also be of use in other situations. Like, if you spend enough time fighting kobolds, you learn how to find traps. But it works against all traps, not just those set by kobolds.

I don't normally advocate for specialization mechanics, but have you considered creating options that encourage the use of thematic weapons. I'd say bow, spears, and axes are the first ones that come to mind. Bows don't really need help. Axes are probably pretty okay too. I doubt very many people with martial weapon proficiency would use spears though. Maybe there could be a selectable class feature that gives a special benefit with those?

Traditionally, rangers have been required to choose a combat style. Honestly though, I don't see any particular reason they shouldn't be allowed to mix and match. Maybe the choices of bonus feat should be independent. So a ranger could select an archery one at one level, but then a two-weapon one at another. (Honestly though, I don't get how two-weapon fighting has the first thing to do with being a man of the wilderness.)

Instead of speacializing on fighting in certain environments, what if living in those environments has tought the ranger skills that can be applied elsewhere? So, favored terrain (desert) could give fire resistance. Favored terrain (underground) could give darkvision. Favored terrain (aquatic) could give a swim speed (or increase you existing swim speed). Favored terrain (plains) could increase your land speed. I don't know, whatever.

Given that druid is a full caster, I don't see what's so powerful about the ranger class that necessitates its animal companion be scaled back relative to druid.

I see that you're planning to have a sneak attack variant. I'd argue for proportioning that to a standard class feature. I mean, rangers are hunter. Hunters sneak up on things and shoot them before they're spotted. And they kind of need to get a one-hit kill, otherwise the animal runs off (and it's faster than they are). So, really sneak attack seems as much a skill of the trade for any woodsman as chopping down trees.

Maybe, at 1st level, each ranger could pick to either gain an animal companion (as ranger, none of this -3 stuff), or to gain the sneak attack ability of a rogue.

I like that you're including a rogue-talent style mechanic, but maybe you could up the frequency? And add a poison use one. Traditional hunters in some cultures use poison.

[Archiplex]

First, I'd like to thank you for the detailed response! Part of this is what keeps me motivated to keep on fixing the class to hopefully hit a perfect spot.


Could I convince you to reconsider favored enemies? I don't mean your particular implementation. I'm saying it shouldn't be part of the ranger class at all. Allowing the ranger to change favored enemies helps, but I think a cornerstone class feature should be broadly applicable. As in, not only useful against certain creature types, even if those types are allowed to change.

Maybe there could be some ability themed on learning to fight certain foes, but I'd like to see it designed such that the knowledge gained in fights against them can also be of use in other situations. Like, if you spend enough time fighting kobolds, you learn how to find traps. But it works against all traps, not just those set by kobolds.
I think that, although Ranger could totally be redone while entirely removing Favored Enemy- I sort of like the feature and it does hit one of the more defining thematic points of the class as it is. It can totally be done, and the power balance could be shifted somewhere else. Ultimately, I think even any further iterations of Vagabond are likely to keep Trophy Count as-is; I do want to keep the class to be familiar to the base class that it modifies anyhow.


I don't normally advocate for specialization mechanics, but have you considered creating options that encourage the use of thematic weapons. I'd say bow, spears, and axes are the first ones that come to mind. Bows don't really need help. Axes are probably pretty okay too. I doubt very many people with martial weapon proficiency would use spears though. Maybe there could be a selectable class feature that gives a special benefit with those?
I think this is actually an amazing idea; I've always been a fan of systems that grant you special boons for weapon *types* rather than combat *style* (Skyrim, as an example). I think this is something I could definitely turn into a cool system, although I am wondering if it's right for Vagabond to adopt it; Maybe if I ever get around to making a fighter remake?


Traditionally, rangers have been required to choose a combat style. Honestly though, I don't see any particular reason they shouldn't be allowed to mix and match. Maybe the choices of bonus feat should be independent. So a ranger could select an archery one at one level, but then a two-weapon one at another. (Honestly though, I don't get how two-weapon fighting has the first thing to do with being a man of the wilderness.)
I think picking a combat style should still be a cornerstone of the class, but I do agree that a system of selective advancement might make the entire thing more interesting than simply selecting a style and gaining feats as you level up. It might get a little too complicated to work that into the current system, but I am looking for a way to make combat style a little more interesting anyhow- so this is definitely one of the things I could look towards doing; One of the things I wanted to make sure was that the thematics of the class were entirely up to the player, however: Whether they're a two-weapon fighter, a hook-fighter or something else- ANYONE should be able to be a vagabond.


Instead of speacializing on fighting in certain environments, what if living in those environments has tought the ranger skills that can be applied elsewhere? So, favored terrain (desert) could give fire resistance. Favored terrain (underground) could give darkvision. Favored terrain (aquatic) could give a swim speed (or increase you existing swim speed). Favored terrain (plains) could increase your land speed. I don't know, whatever.
So, this actually exists in a prestige class called Horizon Walker, and while I was making an archetype that nabs some of it's abilities (trading away Hideout), I'm also a little worried that simply taking abilities from everywhere may not be the most interesting way. I'll be blunt though: I hate Favored Terrain, and finding a way to make it more interesting while keeping the idea conceptually is one of the things I do want to do, which Terrain Dominance/Mastery feeds into sorta well.


Given that druid is a full caster, I don't see what's so powerful about the ranger class that necessitates its animal companion be scaled back relative to druid.
I made a Grace that allows people to get full blown animal companions, but I am a little conflicted if I should do it at all. The value of an animal companion design-wise is vague, since it can totally provide a lot of power; But is an animal companion that's 3 levels of progression behind even useful? I do want to make it full level, but I feel like I might have to chip away at the class somewhere else in order to afford it.


I see that you're planning to have a sneak attack variant. I'd argue for proportioning that to a standard class feature. I mean, rangers are hunter. Hunters sneak up on things and shoot them before they're spotted. And they kind of need to get a one-hit kill, otherwise the animal runs off (and it's faster than they are). So, really sneak attack seems as much a skill of the trade for any woodsman as chopping down trees.

Maybe, at 1st level, each ranger could pick to either gain an animal companion (as ranger, none of this -3 stuff), or to gain the sneak attack ability of a rogue.
I think adding that as a different bond might actually be interesting; I don't think a ranger should get full sneak progression at all, but I think it could definitely be done and be a style; I don't think all rangers should be seen as hunters or people who sneak about a lot, however, so I dont want to make it a default class feature, but rather one people can opt into.


I like that you're including a rogue-talent style mechanic, but maybe you could up the frequency? And add a poison use one. Traditional hunters in some cultures use poison.
Actually, that's a good point! I need to add in either a Grace or a Survival Technique pertaining to poison use, as it's definitely something some cultures used. I don't think I'll be able to up the rate of techniques or graces though- I want to keep them at a level of baseline competence as far as skills and party niches (via graces), or survivability (duh), but overloading choices would make the class a little too good. Plus, I want to design them in a way where people ARE excited to hit the next point of getting a grace or a technique, and have plenty of options to choose from that each entice them- EVERY choice should be meaningful.

Again, thank you for your response!