Alternative idea to dex to damage

[VladtheLad]

First of all what's the consesus of dex to damage, isn't it slightly too good?

In any case recently I have changed my games so that everybody gets weapon finesse with all appropriate weapons and is able to add twice his strength modifier to damage to a maximum of his dexterity modifier. This allows dex based builds but without totally dumping strenght, it gets rid of the feat tax and actually makes more sense (to me at least) mechanics wise since you basically use your speed/accuracy to make the most of the strength you already have. For the time I have banned agile weapons and mythic weapon finesse since these have the potential to get out of hand at higher levels. I do allow the Grace feats and the rogue finesse class feature.
I also allow 20 point buy (with 8 being the minimum) and a custom +1 armor enhancement increasing the armor max dex ac bonus by 2, so maybe dex based pc's even without pure dex to damage don't have a lot to complain in my games.

As an aside I am thinking of allowing monks a feat that lets them use their wisdom to hit and adding twice the lowest of their strength or dex modifier to damage. Thoughts?

[Pleh]

First of all what's the consesus of dex to damage, isn't it slightly too good?

Not in the slightest. "Too good" is comparing relative power of classes, which means you are comparing martials to spellcasters.

Even if you let martials dump strength entirely and made all attacks and damage based on dexterity alone, it doesn't begin to compare with spellcasting.

The main difference is that martials are slight less MAD (multiple attribute dependent) so their resources will theoretically be spread less thin. This might also shift the optimal martial build from Two Hand Fighting to Two Weapon Fighting.

[Fizban]

First of all what's the consesus of dex to damage, isn't it slightly too good?
Extremely too good. Core mechanic where melee attacks get strength to attack and damage while ranged attacks pay for range by being split between dex for attack and strength to damage, where low strength/light armor characters pay for that speed in either armor class or loss of melee, where dex also controls the most rolled saving throw and also going first, just say "nah let's give dex to damage too so it can be the god stat?" Yeah, no. Dex build is a myth. Weapon Finesse is meant to let you recover some accuracy, not as an indicator that "melee dex build" is expected to be viable in the slightest.

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to get moving before the mob shows up. 'Smell the torches from here.

*Incidentally, I've got a strength based Weapon Finesse damage boost too, but I'm halving and replacing rather than giving the full dex with a limit from something else. If you have no strength penalty you can use 1/2 your dex mod instead of strength, otherwise you subtract your strength mod from 1/2 dex.

[16bearswutIdo]

Most balanced way to do it (IMO) would be to add 1/2 dex to damage rolls with no real condition (other than dex being higher than str), and full dex to damage when precision damage is being applied or the target is flat-footed.

I think just straight up giving full dex to damage with no qualifiers is kind of stupid. What's the point of strength otherwise?

[stack]

There is the vigilante method - when using DEX to hit and STR for damage, add level/2 (could use BAB/2 for other classes). Keeps strength relevant, helps DEX out a bit.

[Telonius]

Power Attack and Weapon Finesse are feat taxes, and I'm very much in support of attempting to get rid of them. I've been playing around with a similar idea, though haven't tested it out. My thought is to make Power and Finesse into properties of the weapons themselves. Power weapons would use strength to hit and damage; Finesse weapons would use Dex to hit and Str to damage. Feats keyed off of Power Attack would only be activated by Power weapons. Anyone could hit a bit harder than usual with a greatclub at the expense of accuracy, but you couldn't use a Rapier (for example) to do a Leap Attack. The big burly guy isn't going to hit more often with a Dagger than the nimble guy just because his Strength is better, but he's going to do more damage when he connects because he's got more force behind it. If two equally dextrous people hit with a rapier, the stronger guy ought to do more damage.

This would make things just a tiny bit easier for Strength-based builds, since they wouldn't have to waste a feat on Power Attack; while still making Strength matter since things like Leap Attack and Shock Trooper wouldn't work without it. It would also throw a big bone to Rogues and Rangers, and anybody else who's typically fighting TWF or with light weapons, while not allowing them to ignore Strength entirely.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Even compared to a str-based martial it's not too good.

Size (a lot of dex builds end up being small races) and Strength still matter for all the combat maneuvers you may want to use, and the performing of them upon you as well. Plus, size and reach is really nice for melee but nearly all magic that increases your size also tacks on a dex penalty, so those are often off the table.
My dex-based fighter can do good damage, but that's about it. My str-based fighter can do at least as good damage (1.5x str for 2H, and the whole power attack thing) and can contribute in lots of other ways than just doing damage, plus with a polearm and an enlarge person can control a 20 ft radius around himself.

The main advantages will be initiative (which I've never found to be that important as a non-rogue martial; if you're high str and middling dex, you're not even losing much AC) and AC (and you can get mithral full plate and have about as good an AC even w/ mediocre dex, so more often it's higher movement speed in the end since the str fighter trades that away for the armor).
It's really not that impressive. I guess you're also good at ranged attacks, but the high str guy can spend a feat for Brutal Throw and erase some of that advantage, too.

[Pleh]

I think just straight up giving full dex to damage with no qualifiers is kind of stupid. What's the point of strength otherwise?

Well, strength is still important for breaking things, carrying things, and athletic skills.

I do like the idea of power attack and weapon finesse just being weapon properties. Light weapons still have the problem that they just don't get the damage multipliers that THF gets, so it'd be cool to add better support for the duelist/swashbuckler, sword n' board, and TWF archetypes. In general, the support for these builds already exists, it's just far more expensive than it's worth, so it'd be neat to see similar ease of access modifications.

Still doesn't compare with spellcasting, but that would require bigger system overhauls.

[VladtheLad]

Not in the slightest. "Too good" is comparing relative power of classes, which means you are comparing martials to spellcasters.

Even if you let martials dump strength entirely and made all attacks and damage based on dexterity alone, it doesn't begin to compare with spellcasting.

The main difference is that martials are slight less MAD (multiple attribute dependent) so their resources will theoretically be spread less thin. This might also shift the optimal martial build from Two Hand Fighting to Two Weapon Fighting.

It wasn't my intenion to compare anything to spellcasters. Just dex to damage to str to damage.

Also regarding two weapon fighting, that's also kind of a thing of its own. I use unchained action economy (with one extra action for swift/immediate uses only) which helps twf and I am also considering granting the whole twf chain with one feat and allowing a new feat that replaces double slice and two weapon rend and allows for the stacking of damage to overcome damage reduction if both attacks of the same attack bonus hit and if both hit and one weapon ignores the dr the other does too. Though if I follow this route maybe I would need to see how certain classes that add their level to damage like the paladin/cavalier fare and maybe half the bonus with the off hand.

[heavyfuel]

Dex to damage only isn't too good when you compare Martials to Spellcasters, but when you compare a Dex-to-damage martial with a Str-to-damage martial, the Dex-to damage character is much stronger.


Now if you'll excuse me, I need to get moving before the mob shows up. 'Smell the torches from here.

Hey, can I run away with you?

[liquidformat]

If two equally dextrous people hit with a rapier, the stronger guy ought to do more damage.


I totally disagree with this, if ever there was an example of a weapon that should apply dex over str to damage the rapier is it. It goes against the functionality and point of rapiers and fencing to prioritise strength over accuracy and mobility. A rapier is a generally fragile weapon in comparison to other swords being easy to break due to lateral and torsional force so it is very important to not due things like wacking it against hard surfaces. Furthermore, it has a very sharp point that doesn't take much force to pierce, in fact in a case where you thrust into say a rib due to not being very accurate you are more likely to break the tip off if you try and brute force through the bone than you are to break the bone. Instead you should be aiming for avoiding bones all together and be aiming for the weak points like inner thigh, arm pit, eyes, between the ribs and gut.

I like the idea of getting rid of the power attack and finesse feat tax and just making them part of weapon types. One hand weapons and two hand weapons are power attackable whereas light weapons are finesseable. Using two times your str up to your dex mod on light weapons is actually an interesting approach, it lightens the importance of str without making it a dump stat. It also comically becomes very bad for anyone with a negative str as now I am always doubling the penalty.

You would have to put some special consideration into unarmed strikes and other natural weapons in this situation as they could be light weapons or power attacking weapons.

Also maybe allow power attack with composite bows too?

[StreamOfTheSky]

Extremely too good. Core mechanic where melee attacks get strength to attack and damage while ranged attacks pay for range by being split between dex for attack and strength to damage, where low strength/light armor characters pay for that speed in either armor class or loss of melee, where dex also controls the most rolled saving throw and also going first, just say "nah let's give dex to damage too so it can be the god stat?" Yeah, no. Dex build is a myth. Weapon Finesse is meant to let you recover some accuracy, not as an indicator that "melee dex build" is expected to be viable in the slightest.
Reflex is the weakest save of the three by far. Fort saves are for things like instant death, blindness, paralysis, stunning, etc... Will saves prevent you from killing your friends, falling asleep, running in terror, instant death, etc... Reflex saves...let you take half damage instead of full.
In my experience they're also not the most common save, either. In my campaign, that seems to be will (though no save is extremely more common than the others). Tons of monsters with Su abilities or auras that force will saves...

The AC differences between Str and Dex builds are fairly minimal beyond the first few levels, in my experience. Armors have pretty harsh max dex caps and you pay for each +1 max dex with -1 actual armor bonus generally. Mithral exists, but that just means the str fighter can don mithral full plate for the same slightly-better armor bonus + max dex as the dex guy gets from padded or various splat book armors.
The dex-based guy will have higher movement speed, though not that much better w/o heavy investment (and at this point I note that Barbarian fast movement works in mithral full plate, and Barb is a dip a str-based guy typically wants; and other melee classes can also get it like the wildshape ranger as a dip).

As I said before...don't see a ton of value in going first as a martial w/o SA. Move in first, maybe you're close enough to attack, then get full attacked and your wizard grumbles about messing up his planned AoE spell.

Why shouldn't a dex based melee build be viable? What do you have against it? When your fighter dusts himself off from his 1000 ft head-first plummet into solid rock to find some uppity goblin fighting decently in melee, is it just too darn unrealistic for you?


Dex to damage only isn't too good when you compare Martials to Spellcasters, but when you compare a Dex-to-damage martial with a Str-to-damage martial, the Dex-to damage character is much stronger.

I disagree, see my prior post.

[liquidformat]

From my reading this isn't 'dex to damage' this is multiplying your str score up equal to your dex score or doubling it which ever is less. So yes you are making dex more important than str but you are still forcing str to be relevant until you take shadow blade

[Elricaltovilla]

At higher levels of optimization there's really no difference between STR to attack and damage or DEX to attack and damage. You can edge out slightly more damage from a STR build because stacking STR is easier, whereas a DEX build will have slightly less feats and slightly better AC. Really the difference is pretty small between the two though.

People are naturally going to try and minmax because it's more efficient and in this game you just don't have any resources to "waste" as it were. But you can still build a completely competent STR character (Barbarian, Bloodrager, Fighter, Cavalier, Paladin, Alchemist) as easily as you can build a completely competent DEX character (Rogue, Vigilante, Ranger, Alchemist, etc.)

[CharonsHelper]

whereas a DEX build will have slightly less feats and slightly significantly better AC skill checks, reflex saves, initiative and mobility.

Fixed that for you.

Besides which - it's not the fighter who makes Dex to Damage OP - it's the gishes who get even more out of it, since being more SAD is even more important to them, and they likely can't wear heavy armor anyway.

And frankly - I'm a bit dubious about STR being so much easier to stack

In 3.x & Pathfinder it is only at all balanced if there is a major cost investment or disadvantage. Unchained Rogues getting it is okay, because besides that the Urogue kinda sucks. Fencing/Slashing Grace (after the errata) are okay since they require you to use the weakest combat style (sword & board without TWF with the shield - plus no heavy shield).

The Path of War version of Dex to Damage is very OP, and it makes it (from an optimization standpoint) pointless to ever try to make a STR build.


And yes - they won't break the game in the same way as a caster. That doesn't keep it from being OP.

[VladtheLad]

Most balanced way to do it (IMO) would be to add 1/2 dex to damage rolls with no real condition (other than dex being higher than str), and full dex to damage when precision damage is being applied or the target is flat-footed.

I think just straight up giving full dex to damage with no qualifiers is kind of stupid. What's the point of strength otherwise?

That's pretty close to my suggestion, a bit stronger vs most opponents and allows for dumping strength, which is exactly what I wanted to avoid. I guess I just like a str 20 dex 30 pc to be a viable choice.

It also makes more sense to me for dex to damage to be precision as in what you suggest or to be based in maximizing the effect of the strength you already have as in what I suggest.

I guess pure dex to damage when wielding a rapier and nothing in your offhand is acceptable.


There is the vigilante method - when using DEX to hit and STR for damage, add level/2 (could use BAB/2 for other classes). Keeps strength relevant, helps DEX out a bit.

That's very close to my method, but I guess in my method strength becomes even more important to keep at a certain level and you can end up with slightly higher damage with the vigilante method.

[VladtheLad]

From my reading this isn't 'dex to damage' this is multiplying your str score up equal to your dex score or doubling it which ever is less. So yes you are making dex more important than str but you are still forcing str to be relevant until you take shadow blade

Yeah, that's the idea. Though I don't know what shadow blade(reminds me of tome of battle) is and the more I am thinking about it the more I think I will make it into a single feat to get weapon finesse to all applicable weapons AND double strength to max dex damage.

[Elricaltovilla]

Fixed that for you.

Besides which - it's not the fighter who makes Dex to Damage OP - it's the gishes who get even more out of it, since being more SAD is even more important to them, and they likely can't wear heavy armor anyway.

And frankly - I'm a bit dubious about STR being so much easier to stack

In 3.x & Pathfinder it is only at all balanced if there is a major cost investment or disadvantage. Unchained Rogues getting it is okay, because besides that the Urogue kinda sucks. Fencing/Slashing Grace (after the errata) are okay since they require you to use the weakest combat style (sword & board without TWF with the shield - plus no heavy shield).

The Path of War version of Dex to Damage is very OP, and it makes it (from an optimization standpoint) pointless to ever try to make a STR build.


And yes - they won't break the game in the same way as a caster. That doesn't keep it from being OP.

With respect. I disagree, and the years since Path of War was published have pretty solidly borne that out. I've had this argument so many times that I wrote up a spreadsheet proving my point (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1glbLdxsURIDSNmpGqGw13KK4Pl_CmTDcxbXH5Wm8dIc/edit?usp=sharing)

STR damage does scale much easier than DEX damage. Aside from the basic stat growth options, STR has Rage, Extracts and (with Path of War: Expanded) the brutal slayer stalker offering multiple stacking STR options (each +4 STR minimum). Dex does not have that option. The various polymorph effects all tend to scale up in size, increasing strength and decreasing dexterity, making polymorph options more viable for Strength builds than dex builds in a general sense.

Miss chances are better than AC, and easy enough to get that no martial build should be without them for any combat that matters. If you actually look at the math on armor's max dex and compare it to AC, you'll see that it's actually balanced in such a way that your max DEX and AC bonus pair up to about the same at every level of armor. Plus, AC in general is so easy to boost that the argument becomes basically academic. Most characters can bump their AC high enough that they don't get hit on anything less than a 20 if they choose to go that route.

Skill checks are boostable quite easily as well, and most physical checks are obviated by easily obtained magical items. Armor enhancements and materials can reduce ACP to 0 in 3.5 and nearly the same in Pathfinder depending on class ability. So the effects of Armor on skill checks is negligible, whereas the effects of a higher dex modifier are easily mitigated for all but the most difficult checks.

Movement speed is not affected by dexterity. It's affected by Armor. But the effects of heavy armor on reducing your movement speed can be reduced or negated by a number of class (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/#TOC-Fast-Movement-Ex-) abilities, feats (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/fleet-final/), material choices (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/special-materials/#TOC-Mithral) for armor or enchantments (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor/specific-magic-armor/mithral-full-plate-of-speed).

If you want to complain about Path of War's Deadly Agility specifically, you should read it more carefully as it works exactly like the URogue's ability now (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats/deadly-agility-combat/). The feat has an appropriate cost for its effects, years of playtesting and other player's home games have provided plenty of evidence to support this.

If you want to see viable strength builds in the face of Deadly Agility, I recommend reading my campaign journal, which features a number of STR based Path of War characters and enemies. And possibly my guides as well. I believe that anyone who makes the claim that Deadly Agility makes STR builds pointless simply hasn't made the effort to build STR builds. They are absolutely viable, absolutely powerful, and absolutely not broken, and neither is Deadly Agility.

[CharonsHelper]

If you want to complain about Path of War's Deadly Agility specifically, you should read it more carefully as it works exactly like the URogue's ability now (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats/deadly-agility-combat/). The feat has an appropriate cost for its effects, years of playtesting and other player's home games have provided plenty of evidence to support this.


Yes - I realize that it's essentially the same thing. However - besides that ability the Urogue kinda sucks - as it's one of their biggest class abilities. Deadly Agility as a feat is a MUCH lower cost than dipping 3 levels.

[Aetis]

I just give out Weapon Finesse for free for everyone, and if you want Dex-to-damage, you take "Improved Weapon Finesse".

It lets Dex melee characters kill things at lv 1-3, and that's about all it did.

[liquidformat]

Yeah, that's the idea. Though I don't know what shadow blade(reminds me of tome of battle) is and the more I am thinking about it the more I think I will make it into a single feat to get weapon finesse to all applicable weapons AND double strength to max dex damage.

Shadow Blade is from ToB it gives you Dex to damage while using certain stances. So effectively you could double dex contribution to damage.

I don't know enough about PF to know what Elricaltovilla and CharonsHelper argument is about but for 3.5 this would make two-weapon fighter builds equivalent to two-handed builds. You will now have closer to the same damage output similar AC, better reflex, and really the only skill you are better at for combat is tumble which is more important for TW fighter than to TH fighter. If you aren't going for a rogue build dex really doesn't do much for you in the skills department so that really isn't a valid argument.
On the other hand the TH fighter actually has combat options outside of damage which TW doesn't so making TW slightly more mobile and able to compete in damage doesn't change much.

[Peat]

What StreamOfTheSky and Elricaltovilla are saying sounds a lot more like the games I played than Dex being overpowered.