OOTS #1126 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Keltest]

Honestly, as far as Greg's concentration goes, im not entirely certain this is an improvement over the sword.

[HUMVEE Driver]

Yes! I've been waiting for this!

[Wowlock]

Ok...that vampire bastard had gone too far this time.

World ending vote scheme ? Sure, fine.

But using Kudzu as a human shield ?! DEATH IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR HIM ! :smallfurious:

[Havelocke]

This is the straw that breaks EVERYTHING. Durkon is going to snap, the Order may snap...its on folks. Nobody puts Baby in a corner!

[Ruck]

Well, the title made me think Kudzu, although I didn't know how exactly he'd come up.

We got confirmation of our excellent sleuths' discovery of what was on that wall. Now to find out what else Sigdi has kept from Durkon. (And, also, how in the world Roy will get out of this one.)

Elan's the comedy MVP today, for sure.

[Darth Paul]

Now that's just dirty pool.

And I'm sad all over again, because it's just the kind of thing my friend Doug's NPCs would do...

Doug passed away in hospital last month at age 59. He ran the sneakiest and most sadistic villains you ever met. Rom the Anti-Paladin was a classic.

So long, Doug... again. Mourning never ends.

[ghoul-n]

Still titled as #1125 in-comic :(

[Xianthe]

I'm thinking that Durkon* will shortly be regretting allowing Hilgya to stay within the bounds of the Anti-Life shell...

[Peelee]

I would like to hear more reviews about this domination.

[Dungeon-noob]

So, (one of) the question (s most relevant to the plot right now) is: which member of the party is going to break out of the domination because of the baby shield first? My money is on either Elan or Hilgya, due to most concern for the baby, and for easiest way to turn the battle around.


Of course, knowing the Giant, that means that that WON'T be the way the story goes, therefore.....*quitly continues debating in the distance*

[Peelee]

Hey, Giant, a question.

Why is the vampire Durkon arnor-clad in his mind, while he chooses ribes over armor? Is it just a holdover from when he first awoke or something?

[pendell]

I love this strip. Looks we are rapidly approaching an exciting climax!

Also, if I get a vote, I say Belkar keeps the shades as part of his permanent costume.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[drazen]

So, (one of) the question (s most relevant to the plot right now) is: which member of the party is going to break out of the domination because of the baby shield first? My money is on either Elan or Hilgya, due to most concern for the baby, and for easiest way to turn the battle around.


Of course, knowing the Giant, that means that that WON'T be the way the story goes, therefore.....*quitly continues debating in the distance*


I thought Durkula was Lawful Evil and agreed to let Durkon's family live. This... does not seem to be him upholding his end of that bargain.

[Lord Torath]

Elan always makes me laugh (Hinjo called....). And poor little Kudzu! So cute!

Also: I love Mr. Scruffy trying to get Belkar to snap out of it.

Thanks, Rich!

I love this strip. Looks we are rapidly approaching an exciting climax!

Also, if I get a vote, I say Belkar keeps the shades as part of his permanent costume.Nah. Blackwing's gonna need those back. :smallcool:

[HandofShadows]

AH &%&$@#@**)&%%$%:smallfurious::smalleek::smallfurious:

[endiku]

OOO - the plot thickens - nice update :smallsmile:

thank Giant!

[Tundar]

That's just cruel. Hilgya is gonna be sooo pissed. And Durkon is within Harms reach :smallbiggrin:

[Onyavar]

I'm thinking that Durkon* will shortly be regretting allowing Hilgya to stay within the bounds of the Anti-Life shell...

Uh-huh. Hearing your little darling cry is THE wake-up call for moms.

Let's hope that Hilgya has prepared some very potent healing spells...

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I thought Durkula was Lawful Evil and agreed to let Durkon's family live. This... does not seem to be him upholding his end of that bargain.

Yes, yes it is. This is the kind of action a Lawful Evil individual would take after promising no to hurt a baby.

GW

[Mad Humanist]

I thought Durkula was Lawful Evil and agreed to let Durkon's family live. This... does not seem to be him upholding his end of that bargain.

He's not doing anything to actively harm the baby. Roy will not continue his sword throwing tactic so Kudzu is safe. Distraught but safe.

[Reboot]

But using Kudzu as a human shield ?! DEATH IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR HIM ! :smallfurious:

Kudzu isn't human! Stop oppressing dwarfen culture, you anthrocentric stretch!

[Talion]

Interesting...assuming wealth by level rules were in play, Durkon's mom either:

1. Was level 8 when she retired to raise Durkon, or

2. Was able to combine her husband's WBL with her own at level 6 when he died (minus any equipment on his physical body),

Which would have given her 27,000 or 26,000 gp in cash and various assets to work with to make that donation. Though those are also minimum numbers. They could have had a higher level, but had some or even all their wealth in assets that could only be sold for 'half value'. On the other hand, that scenario gets exponentially less likely at each additional level, unless there was more money thrown around somewhere that we don't know about.

In either case, if not for the template, the troll should have been a relatively simple matter to deal with if the others were at least level 5.

[hamishspence]

I'm definitely curious as to what more there is to the story of how she became a donor, now that we know Durkon knows.

[Rinion]

Kudzu's onesie is, as the kids say, a lewk.

[LtPowers]

Wow, how bad is Hilgya's will save? Seems like "Come here and give me your baby" would be worth a second one at least.


Powers &8^]

[Keltest]

Hey, Giant, a question.

Why is the vampire Durkon arnor-clad in his mind, while he chooses ribes over armor? Is it just a holdover from when he first awoke or something?

If I had to take a wild guess, its because Durkon is armor-clad is his mind, and Greg is a ghostly counterpart to that mental image.

[jdb-44]

[snicker-snack]

In either case, if not for the template, the troll should have been a relatively simple matter to deal with if the others were at least level 5.



Ugh, I forget that part of the back story and since I'm busy at work :biggrin: I don't have time to look it up. What happened with Durkon's father and a troll?

Thanks--

[oonker]

The lines "Ok, That's just incredibly distracting. The sword throwing, not the memory." almost feel as if they're a message to some of the forumites.


On another notice: great strip!. I thought I'd feel a little more relieved when 1126 came out, but BOY was I wrong.

[Goblin_Priest]

That's just cruel. Hilgya is gonna be sooo pissed. And Durkon is within Harms reach :smallbiggrin:

That would be a bad idea though. ;)

Also, I had to look it up, I thought Antilife shell was going to harm those living in it. It doesn't. Just prevents the others from coming in.

[drazen]

Wow, how bad is Hilgya's will save? Seems like "Come here and give me your baby" would be worth a second one at least.


Powers &8^]


The order was just "Come here." Looked to me like Durkon straight up took the baby.

[Talion]

Ugh, I forget that part of the back story and since I'm busy at work :biggrin: I don't have time to look it up. What happened with Durkon's father and a troll?

Thanks--

From what we were told, he died fighting a troll with a draconic template (and thus seemingly fire resistance/immunity) instead of the normal troll the party was expecting. Of course, that could all change in the next update or two.

[StreamOfTheSky]

This is the straw that breaks EVERYTHING. Durkon is going to snap, the Order may snap...its on folks. Nobody puts Baby in a corner!

Uh...the baby's own mother handed him over to be used as a human shield. If she's still ok with it while being dominated, so are the others.
But hey, I've complained multiple times already about how ludicrously successful the barrage of dominates has been, even when ordered to do stuff that offers a new save and no one broke free still.

[Kish]

Uh...the baby's own mother handed him over to be used as a human shield. If she's still ok with it while being dominated, so are the others.
But hey, I've complained multiple times already about how ludicrously successful the barrage of dominates has been, even when ordered to do stuff that offers a new save and no one broke free still.
You sure have. What you haven't done, is explained why the domination gaze power, and for that matter the Dominate Person spell, doesn't spell out "the victim gets a new save to break the Domination whenever you order them to do anything," if any action that benefits an enemy or hurts allies automatically trips the "against your nature" clause.

[brian 333]

Uh...the baby's own mother handed him over to be used as a human shield. If she's still ok with it while being dominated, so are the others.
But hey, I've complained multiple times already about how ludicrously successful the barrage of dominates has been, even when ordered to do stuff that offers a new save and no one broke free still.

The characters of the OotS are notoriously poorly built. Look at Roy, for example: he has not properly dump-statted his Int score, and he has skill points invested in non-combat skills that don't apply to mobility. I know a couple of players who could munchkin the OotS characters for upwards of 50% increase in combat effectiveness.

Kudzu on Durkula's lap may seem like a wise move to Durkula, but I get the feeling that it's the first step in his defeat.

I notice that Mr. Scruffy is coming to the rescue. Again. (I hope it works.)

[Resileaf]

The save is if it's against their very nature. What makes them who they are. Not any random order. Ordering Haley and Elan to kill each others would definitely mean another save because they truly love each other, but we haven't known Hilgya long enough to know if she doesn't really hold no feelings whatsoever for Durkon anymore. There may be lingering affection. He is the father to her child.

Edit: Also apparently Belkar somehow got back the dagger he threw. Huh.

[Darkhands]

My first thought was that this is really bad for UnDurkon... He's now trapped with a high level cleric who won't stay dominated forever, and who will be very angry when she wakes up.

But mini-hostage aside, if she breaks her domination, can he just walk out? Are Hilgya and Kudzu the ones trapped in there? I thought the shell could only be used defensively... using it to trap your enemies seems to be bending that rule (yes I know the rules are only a guide here, but still).

[FlawedParadigm]

The straw that breaks the camel's back is going to be that Durkon* said "daddy" when talking to Kudzu and someone is going to notice that. That will be the part where Durkon's* downfall will be his own fault.

[Crusher]

Edit: Also apparently Belkar somehow got back the dagger he threw. Huh.

Could be a different dagger.

[Hiro Quester]

The big plot points here are awesome, a welcome combination of the expected (Durkon’s mom beginning to explain why she’s on the Wall of Donors) and the unexpected (Kudzu as anti-life shell).

But the small stuff is hilarious. Dominated-Elan wins: “the feel-good compulsion of the year” “three-and-a-half hypno-swirlies”.

It’s the low rating, three and a half (presumably out of five) that tickles me most. Well played, Giant.

[Teln]

Ugh, I forget that part of the back story and since I'm busy at work :biggrin: I don't have time to look it up. What happened with Durkon's father and a troll?

Thanks--


From what we were told, he died fighting a troll with a draconic template (and thus seemingly fire resistance/immunity) instead of the normal troll the party was expecting. Of course, that could all change in the next update or two.

Specifically, both him and the half-dragon troll were crushed to death in a Hail Mary cave-in he caused after the troll's draconic template made their flaming weapons completely useless. The funeral was empty-casket. That's a very important detail because there's exactly one clerical spell in the SRD with a 25k price tag--True Resurrection. The 9th-level spell you use to bring someone back from death if no remains can be found, assuming that any exist in the first place.

The obvious question now is, why on Earth would a newlywed man and father-to-be pass up a second chance at life with his wife and child? Especially after his widow nearly bankrupted herself trying to bring him back?

[Resileaf]

Specifically, both him and the half-dragon troll were crushed to death in a Hail Mary cave-in he caused after the troll's draconic template made their flaming weapons completely useless. The funeral was empty-casket. That's a very important detail because there's exactly one clerical spell in the SRD with a 25k price tag--True Resurrection. The 9th-level spell you use to bring someone back from death if no remains can be found, assuming that any exist in the first place.

The obvious question now is, why on Earth would a newlywed man and father-to-be pass up a second chance at life with his wife and child? Especially after his widow nearly bankrupted herself trying to bring him back?

Hmm. The only thing I can think of...
Durkon's father isn't dead yet. He is (or was) trapped in the tunnels, but still alive.

[Smolder]

I get it... Durkon's plan must be to deafen the vampire with the loudest DUN DUN DUNNNN ever!

[Cazero]

I would like to hear more reviews about this domination.
"Dominastic !"
"Loyalty training ends up costing more time and money."
"I can neither confirm nor deny wether or not I was being dominated at that time."
"Kill. All. HumansDwarves."
"Beats being thrown in an acid vat."
"Not that kind of domination."
"I murdered my fellows PCs, and all I got for it was a backstabbing from my new boss."

[Peelee]

Edit: Also apparently Belkar somehow got back the dagger he threw. Huh.


Could be a different dagger.

He's certainly close enough to have grabbed it back.

[Resileaf]

Greg's suspiciously specific denial that the memory isn't distracting him is very interesting, though. That he felt the need to specify that the memory was not distracting him despite no one else knowing that he was watching a memory seems to be very meaningful.

[Sardonic]

Can someone explain how the forumites figured out this reveal in advance? I know we saw the Wall of Names of Very Rich Donors back in #1112, but how did our super sleuths figure out that one of the runic entries in there was Sigdi's?

[Morquard]

Fun Fact: 25,000 gp is exactly the price of a True Resurrection.

So I assume Durkon's father actually is alive? Who could he be, because I assume his reveal will change something there.

[vegetalss4]

Fun Fact: 25,000 gp is exactly the price of a True Resurrection.

So I assume Durkon's father actually is alive? Who could he be, because I assume his reveal will change something there.

While the 25000 gp is pretty clearly implying a True Resurrection the actual price of getting one cast is 26530 gp. The 250000 gp only pays for the material components you also have to pay 10*caster level*spell level to the cleric to cast it.
In fact since the 25000 gp worth of diamonds get consumed in the casting the cleric only get's to keep the 1530 extra gp.

[2D8HP]

Making Kudzu cry!

:mad:

Durkula so deserves comeupens now!

[Ruck]

You sure have. What you haven't done, is explained why the domination gaze power, and for that matter the Dominate Person spell, doesn't spell out "the victim gets a new save to break the Domination whenever you order them to do anything," if any action that benefits an enemy or hurts allies automatically trips the "against your nature" clause.

I wouldn't say any action, myself, but given how vociferously Hilgya defended bringing her baby into an active combat situation over leaving him somewhere safer, I would have thought "voluntarily hand over your baby" might have garnered another save. (Although, of course, it's possible that it did and she failed. I'm not finding this development implausible, myself.)

[hamishspence]

Can someone explain how the forumites figured out this reveal in advance? I know we saw the Wall of Names of Very Rich Donors back in #1112, but how did our super sleuths figure out that one of the runic entries in there was Sigdi's?
Probably by first finding the font.


Now's probably a good time to point out that one of those names is in fact:
Sigdi Thundershield.

The one above it is Shirra Copperbottom, which may be Sigdi's friend.

Here's the font. (http://www.blambot.com/font_dwarfspirits.shtml)

[PBlades]

He could have been revived but chose to abandoned them. Aside from being a painful and traumatic memory for Durkon, though, I don't see how this would help. It wouldn't make sense if he just dies again after the revive, and "Sorry ma'am, your 'donation for the cause of your husband's resurrection was greatly appreciated, but no refunds!" is pretty dire. He could be one of the other dwarfen characters?

[Ruck]

Fun Fact: 25,000 gp is exactly the price of a True Resurrection.

So I assume Durkon's father actually is alive? Who could he be, because I assume his reveal will change something there.

Hmm. I wonder if she donated to get Durkon's pa resurrected, and he declined to come back. I feel like the real reveal runs deeper than that, though, especially as to how she got the money in the first place.

[Morquard]

While the 25000 gp is pretty clearly implying a True Resurrection the actual price of getting one cast is 26530 gp. The 250000 gp only pays for the material components you also have to pay 10*caster level*spell level to the cleric to cast it.
In fact since the 25000 gp worth of diamonds get consumed in the casting the cleric only get's to keep the 1530 extra gp.

It might be that the temple of thor waved the 1530 gp, and only required the 25k, maybe because it happened in the line of duty, or because the temple doesn't charge for resurrections in general. I don't know, just speculating of course.

But it really only leaves a few possibilities:
a) Dad didn't want to come back
b) Dad wasn't dead, so couldn't come back (but that would mean a horrific fate of being trapped under rubble the whole time, and why did nobody do anything?)
c) Dad came back, but died again before Durkon was born
d) Dad came back, but left the family

Durkon specifically saved this memory for this occation because he thinks it will shake the Vampire's concentration or believe or change things in some way. I'm wondering which of these would.
a) Probably just gets the Vampire to laugh, but otherwise, I don't think it would matter to him
b) Would probably make the Vampire laugh even louder. Again I don't think it would matter
c) Depending how he died again, it could mean he currently resides with Hel... but all that would do is probably give him more ammunition by threatening to also torture Dad's soul now, I can't see how that would help.
d) The hall could belong to him, and he shows up and wrecks face when revealed. Durkon having learned from Elan realized that that would happen at the dramatically opportune moment, which means it won't happen before he learnd the memory. Ok I'm fishing here.

Oh... one last idea:
When the resurrection failed Thor gave Sigdy a "one true res free" voucher... which Durkon holds now, and is going to use... from within the Vampire... But for that the vampire needed to be aware of it... which makes no sense at all either.

[Resileaf]

I think it's affecting him more than you might think. He really went out of his way to say, aloud that he wasn't being distracted by the memory. And earlier, he said the same thing in and outside of his mind about "it's not over yet./?" when the female vampire gloated that Belkar was following her orders without question. There's something fishy going on.

[Mikemical]

I thought Durkula was Lawful Evil and agreed to let Durkon's family live. This... does not seem to be him upholding his end of that bargain.

Antilife Shell doesn't harm living beings, just makes people outside the shell unable to cross it.

However, using the baby as a shield against Roy's bastard sword is effectively putting him in harm's way.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Fun Fact: 25,000 gp is exactly the price of a True Resurrection.

So I assume Durkon's father actually is alive? Who could he be, because I assume his reveal will change something there.

If she had spent 25k on True Resurrection material components (diamonds), that would not count as a donation to the temple. Even if the temple sold to you the material as a double-dipping commercial process, that's still a regular purchase, not a donation. The message, I think, is that she could have had the resurrection cast, but chose to donate the funds to the temple instead, not that the resurrection failed.


However, using the baby as a shield against Roy's bastard sword is effectively putting him in harm's way.

No, it is not, not if you know Roy, which both Durkon and Greg do.

Grey Wolf

[Thufir]

While the True Resurrection speculation is interesting, remember that the High Priest of Odin was the only Dwarf Cleric powerful enough to regenerate a lost limb (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0983.html), so certainly no-one at the Temple of Thor could cast the higher level True Resurrection.
Well, unless Sigdi's "At least these days" comment is implying the existence of more powerful Clerics who had died by the time of that memory.

[ratfox]

Ouch. That doesn't look good.

[Ornithologist]

So, horrible idea number one:

What if Sigdi had to choose between Durkon and his dad on the resurrection spell?

That would both explain everything and make me feel terrible for a long while.

[Morquard]

If she had spent 25k on True Resurrection material components (diamonds), that would not count as a donation to the temple. Even if the temple sold to you the material as a double-dipping commercial process, that's still a regular purchase, not a donation. The message, I think, is that she could have had the resurrection cast, but chose to donate the funds to the temple instead, not that the resurrection failed.


The temple might require 25k gp in donations, so they then would use 25k worth of diamonds from their own stash to perform a miracle. They just call it differently that's all.


I thought Durkula was Lawful Evil and agreed to let Durkon's family live. This... does not seem to be him upholding his end of that bargain.

When I read this I thought "Wait, if he now reveals that Dad is still alive, that would put him on the protected list, so when he then shows up..." ... but I reread the comic in question and the deal is only for the baby's life. So that doesn't really work either.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The temple might require 25k gp in donations, so they then would use 25k worth of diamonds from their own stash to perform a miracle. They just call it differently that's all.

No, that is not "calling it differently". That is the opposite of a donation. The Temple would make exactly 0 profit from such a transaction (or even a -1530 loss, if the cleric still needs to be paid), which is not the kind of thing that gets you put in a golden plate of generous contributors.

Grey Wolf

[Mikemical]

I'm going to venture a guess that it's actually a life insurance for Durkon, in case he died so he would be resurrected because his mom didn't want to risk losing him as well.

[Ghosty]

Fun Fact: 25,000 gp is exactly the price of a True Resurrection.

So I assume Durkon's father actually is alive? Who could he be, because I assume his reveal will change something there.

I thought the Giant was on record as stating he really doesn't like True Resurrection? To the point of that it might as well not exist in StickWorld? After all, Laurin and Tarquin seemed pretty confident that Nale wasn't coming back, blood on the pleather wrappings or not. 17th level clerics are probably pretty hard to find though, even if 25k in components aren't.

True Rez existing does seem like the narrative reason though for her correcting Durkon that it was 25k, not 20k.

Streamofthesky, at this point I'm just rolling with the Order's constantly failed saves. Treat it like how most movies handle guns, and stop counting how many times the hero gets to shoot without reloading. I think the story more than makes up for it.

[Yendor]

I may be in error, but I believe the appropriate proclamation is, "Totally called it."

[fishhead202]

Long time reader, first time poster:

Like many, I've been trying to figure out what the big Durkon reveal would be. Narratively, it has to have some effect, be it real world, or inside Durkon's head. My first thought was that it had to do with the location, something like:

This room automatically opens to the sun at a set time, and Durkon had made the memories appear to lure them all there and trap them. The $25K, possibly alive father makes me think this isn't right.

BUT: Who cares if dad's alive? If he's going to save the day, why hasn't he? Whatever the reveal is going to be, there has to be a trigger, and what I can't figure out is why that trigger hasn't happened.

Dad's alive? Why would he wait until now to help?
Durkon has something to break Vamp's concentration? Why has he waited until now?

I think there's a lot of great theories floating around here, but I'm stuck on why the trigger hasn't happened yet. I figure it has to be time/place specific? OR (and I just thought of this), somehow Durkon seeing the baby is what started this. Durkon realized he was a father, which for some reason makes this memory important. Why having a kid, or being a father makes this memory important?

The kid is Durkon's dad reincarnated? Grasping at straws, but I think the baby is tied to the memory somehow.

[pendell]

I thought the Giant was on record as stating he really doesn't like True Resurrection? To the point of that it might as well not exist in StickWorld? After all, Laurin and Tarquin seemed pretty confident that Nale wasn't coming back, blood on the pleather wrappings or not. 17th level clerics are probably pretty hard to find though, even if 25k in components aren't.

True Rez existing does seem like the narrative reason though for her correcting Durkon that it was 25k, not 20k.

Streamofthesky, at this point I'm just rolling with the Order's constantly failed saves. Treat it like how most movies handle guns, and stop counting how many times the hero gets to shoot without reloading. I think the story more than makes up for it.

The failed saves are only important if they make a difference to the outcome, and I don't think they do.

By author fiat, I'm absolutely certain that the OOTS will continue on to the next gate, and so Durkon* will not destroy the world. This isn't a game, this is a cut scene. The outcome is predetermined, so successes or failures are simply icing on the cake, to make the storytelling more interesting.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I thought the Giant was on record as stating he really doesn't like True Resurrection? To the point of that it might as well not exist in StickWorld? After all, Laurin and Tarquin seemed pretty confident that Nale wasn't coming back, blood on the pleather wrappings or not. 17th level clerics are probably pretty hard to find though, even if 25k in components aren't.

The spell probably exists, in the sense that it is a core spell, and OotS runs on core+. But because it is a narrative-breaker, the Giant's comment suggests that for reasons the spell won't make an appearance to assist the Order (it could till be used by their enemies, since they get to use all the cool toys, since giving them advantages the heroes don't have makes for better stories, although given that the ABD wasn't able to use it suggests no-one will).

As you point out, the limitation is the 17th level clerics, of which we know exactly one, and who is unlikely to help. But the spell itself exists, and it is possible that at some point in the past there was a cleric of Thor or Freya or Odin that was high enough level to cast it... and yet Durkon's mom still chose to let her husband, dead honorably and thus having escaped Hel's clutches, stay dead.

Or, because we don't know the whole story, it might be a whole lot more complicated than that. My money is on this, right now.

Grey Wolf

[Sky_Schemer]

I wouldn't say any action, myself, but given how vociferously Hilgya defended bringing her baby into an active combat situation over leaving him somewhere safer, I would have thought "voluntarily hand over your baby" might have garnered another save. (Although, of course, it's possible that it did and she failed. I'm not finding this development implausible, myself.)

Up until now, there's not really anything that Hilgya's done that has been against her nature as a cleric of Loki.

It's been 4 panels since Hilgya saw exactly what the plan was for Kudzu, and 1 panel since he started crying. This last development may very well, and very reasonably, be the thing that gives her a new save.

[WindStruck]

And then the next comic title will be "Deadbeat Dad". :smallamused:

[Kashem]

I get it... Durkon's plan must be to deafen the vampire with the loudest DUN DUN DUNNNN ever!

Elan will be the one to break domination, because it would be completely against his nature NOT to shout "DUN DUN DUNNNNN" at the top of his lungs, during a key moment, even if he has NO IDEA WHY, and Durkon* will command him halfway through to stop.
(See comic 968)

Rich, if this was actually your plan, please do not change it. It would make my year. Likelihood of that is < 0.1%, but still.

Really though, Hilgya will break domination by being ordered to let go of her crying baby when she instinctually tries to comfort him.

Also, is the theory here basically now that the two fighters are just pure meat-shielding this combat, or that Roy's sword is offering such healing that he is actually able to take this much beating?
That said, Gotta hand it to the Giant, he is REALLY keeping the suspense up to MAX right now.

[137beth]

Well, at least the baby isn't dead (yet)! I honestly have no idea how this memory is going to help the Order win.

[Snails]

The obvious question now is, why on Earth would a newlywed man and father-to-be pass up a second chance at life with his wife and child? Especially after his widow nearly bankrupted herself trying to bring him back?

That is one of the many obvious questions. Why mom still lacks an arm and why they live in poverty are questions, too.

But the obvious answers to your question would be:
(1) No, reason on Earth. But a good enough reason in the afterlife. ;)
(2) He is not an eligible candidate for True Resurrection because his soul is unavailable, meaning he is soul trapped in some fashion or he is still alive.
(3) Mom never tried to have him True Resurrected.

As for #3, well, there could be all kinds of crazy but believable reasons. Like Durkon's biological father provided the money, which could not be reasonably used to bring back her husband as it would raise uncomfortable and dishonor-provoking questions, so the cash was gotten rid of the most honorable-ish way possible.

[Elenna]

Greg is an *******. But we knew that already.

Hilgya seems to have super low WS for a cleric. I'm sure she got to roll some saves from being ordered to hand her baby to the person she came to kill. But we knew that already too.

Kudos to the Giant for managing to ratchet the tension up even higher. :smalleek:


That would be a bad idea though. ;)

Also, I had to look it up, I thought Antilife shell was going to harm those living in it. It doesn't. Just prevents the others from coming in.

I think Greg also used it at the Godsmoot, which I expect is why Rich didn't explain it. But that was a while ago in real time.

[godsflunky]

Hang on. According to Uncle Squeaky, Sigdi had some of Durkon's dad's hair. It's buried in the tomb. So why would there even need to be a True Resurrection?

[/non-AD&D-player question]

[Peelee]

While the 25000 gp is pretty clearly implying a True Resurrection
Wheeeeeeee

True Resurrection is a terrible, narrative-wrecking spell that should not exist, as it has no real purpose for players who die in battle (as they can almost always be returned via simple Resurrection) and only ever comes in to play to undo plot points. I prefer to simply treat it as "not available" to everyone, and I don't want to waste any panel time explaining why.

[Derian]

Hey, Giant, a question.

Why is the vampire Durkon arnor-clad in his mind, while he chooses ribes over armor? Is it just a holdover from when he first awoke or something?

I'm certainly not the Giant, but if I had to offer a guess, it's probably something to do with Greg being the embodiment of Durkon's lowest moment. If memory serves, he was robed when he was thrown out of dwarven lands, and even when he was armored in the flashback, perhaps he still thought of himself as an acolyte instead of an adventurer. So Greg naturally has more affinity for robes instead.

Just a thought.

[Perficio]

If we're raising the idea that maybe Durkon's dad was alive the whole time, it seems pretty plausible to that she went to get him resurrected - only to be told that he was actually alive, but unable to return. That she needed to live as though he was dead. Maybe a guilty trouble secret, maybe doing secret important things for dwarvenkind. Something that the high priest (or any other high enough priests in that time) knew about but the average dwarf couldn't. No wasted diamonds, the money put instead to the church of Thor.

But "actually still alive" is not enough of a reveal. Sigdri says that Durkon didn't know everything, in a way that suggests that he doesn't know is something very very important - to why they lived the lives they did, as he grew up, why she didn't say anything. And given the context in which we're learning about it, presumably something with that prophecy. Was she bribing for some protection for Durkon?

[Thurulian]

it seems like Durkula is about to screw himself royally. also havnt seen Hailey in the last few strips maybe shes going to break the domination and then break Elan out, regardless once one of the order breaks the domination it will be a swirly eye removal chain reaction.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Hang on. According to Uncle Squeaky, Sigdi had some of Durkon's dad's hair. It's buried in the tomb. So why would there even need to be a True Resurrection?

[/non-AD&D-player question]

The lock of hair would've needed to have been part of the body at death. Not cut off earlier as a memento.

And it seems like forever since I busted this meme out.

"You make Baby Jesus Kudzu cry!"

[Askthepizzaguy]

I am grateful for the double size update, Giant. Will be getting Good Deeds in August for my birthday.

Just gonna keep munching the popcorn and wait and see what happens inside the antilife shell...

[Keltest]

Hang on. According to Uncle Squeaky, Sigdi had some of Durkon's dad's hair. It's buried in the tomb. So why would there even need to be a True Resurrection?

[/non-AD&D-player question]

The body part in question needs to have been part of the corpse at the time of death for it to count.

Also, unimportant, but it stopped being AD&D with 3rd edition and became just D&D.

[RblDiver]

Point of order (of the stick >.>): Per http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antilifeShell.htm, indeed it says that antilife shell doesn't harm those inside, BUT it also says "Forcing an abjuration barrier against creatures that the spell keeps at bay collapses the barrier." Given that there are two humanoids inside the barrier, I say that it should collapse next round.

[Snails]

Point of order (of the stick >.>): Per http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antilifeShell.htm, indeed it says that antilife shell doesn't harm those inside, BUT it also says "Forcing an abjuration barrier against creatures that the spell keeps at bay collapses the barrier." Given that there are two humanoids inside the barrier, I say that it should collapse next round.

No. The intended meaning here is that you cannot push or force movement with an antilife shell. Those who so happen to be in the antilife shell, because they either were there when it was created or DDoored in or whatever, do not affect the antilife shell in any way -- it only matters to them if they leave.

[Peelee]

The body part in question needs to have been part of the corpse at the time of death for it to count.

Also, unimportant, but it stopped being AD&D with 3rd edition and became just D&D.

I won Dungeons and Dragons! And it was advanced! That guy was streets ahead.

[Vingelot]

Greg's suspiciously specific denial that the memory isn't distracting him is very interesting, though. That he felt the need to specify that the memory was not distracting him despite no one else knowing that he was watching a memory seems to be very meaningful.

Probably it was said for Durkon's benefit. Out loud because he actually was distracted, by the memory and/or the sword.

Well, I'm sure Durkon will eventually succeed magnificently, because so many panels spent on the memory without awesome effect would instantly break Elan's heart!

[Imerias]

For me there are several issues with idea of Durkon's father having been resurrected. In comic 333, Durkon lists his pappy as being buried in the ancestral tomb. If Tenrin was resurrected, he probably didn't run off as this would be dishonorable and he likely wouldn't be buried with honor in his ancestral tomb. If he died again later it just feels like some bizarre over-complication considering the secrecy around his first death. (Also I just feel like Squeaky wouldn't have been able to pass up a "which time?" joke when Durkon asked him about his father's death).

[Keltest]

Point of order (of the stick >.>): Per http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antilifeShell.htm, indeed it says that antilife shell doesn't harm those inside, BUT it also says "Forcing an abjuration barrier against creatures that the spell keeps at bay collapses the barrier." Given that there are two humanoids inside the barrier, I say that it should collapse next round.

The name "shell" suggests that the interior of the spell is not part of the spell's area. More to the point, that would render it completely unusable by the vast majority of PC clerics, so I doubt it pushes existing life out of the area.

[RblDiver]

No. The intended meaning here is that you cannot push or force movement with an antilife shell. Those who so happen to be in the antilife shell, because they either were there when it was created or DDoored in or whatever, do not affect the antilife shell in any way -- it only matters to them if they leave.

Ah, I see, so if he were to advance in an attempt to keep out Roy, that would collapse it. I see.

[Peelee]

Ah, I see, so if he were to advance in an attempt to keep out Roy, that would collapse it. I see.

Or moving forward without commanding Hilgya to as well.

[SlashDash]

Question :

Isn't Greg draining energy by touch as a vampire?

How is Kudzo unharmed? Can he choose to suppress it?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Question :

Isn't Greg draining energy by touch as a vampire?

How is Kudzo unharmed? Can he choose to suppress it?

Yes, Greg can choose to NOT use his energy drain, since it requires a slam attack ("Living creatures hit by a vampire’s slam attack (or any other natural weapon the vampire might possess)" [source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm)]). He simply can refrain from attacking Kudzu at all.

GW

[windgate]

What if Kadzu isnt actually a baby at all, but some sort of chaotic evil "trick/trap"? It would explain why Hilga didn't get/pass a new saving throw for handing the baby over......

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm going to venture a guess that it's actually a life insurance for Durkon, in case he died so he would be resurrected because his mom didn't want to risk losing him as well. I'll place my nominal five dollar bet on this square.

[theMycon]

My guess is along the lines of the majority- SOMEONE needed a rez.


No, that is not "calling it differently". That is the opposite of a donation. The Temple would make exactly 0 profit from such a transaction (or even a -1530 loss, if the cleric still needs to be paid), which is not the kind of thing that gets you put in a golden plate of generous contributors.

Grey Wolf

See Panel 4 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0983.html). Sigdi explicitly mentions donation-for-spellcasting, so it's unequivocally established that they refer to paying for clerical services as a donation. Granted, it's a donation for spellcasting services, but the 25,000 number suspiciously specific. There are plenty of ways to dismiss the hired-caster charge, like "someone else paid it as Sigdi was incapacitated, but the diamonds came from her loot" or "The caster was an adventuring buddy" or "the caster was grateful enough to a man who had heroically sacrificed his life for the town to not worry about one spell slot".

(Also, a -1530g loss is a 1530g gain. From the context your meaning was clear, but the exact opposite of what you said.)

[eilandesq]

No. The intended meaning here is that you cannot push or force movement with an antilife shell. Those who so happen to be in the antilife shell, because they either were there when it was created or DDoored in or whatever, do not affect the antilife shell in any way -- it only matters to them if they leave.

The effect moves with Durkula, so he will need to order Hilgya to keep pace with him if he does, or she will be forced into the shell and it will be dispelled. Meaning that if she does break the domination, Durkula will either need to lose the protection of the shell, or be trapped in there with her in easy reach of touch spells.

[WolvesbaneIII]

I wonder if this is a ploy by hilgya some how. Like, "oh. I have the will to suppress this thing without undoing the swirly eyes, like being able to pretend sobriety when drunk. I could use this to my advantage...I just need the proper opening...and done. undurkon wants the baby as a shield. Perfect. This is quite the risk, but the reward. Fwahahahaha!"

Maybe, maybe not.

Would durkon on his worst day really risk the life of his baby? or was that just a grand speech by undurkon to mess with real durkon?

[Nion]

I don't understand why the Antilife Shell would work.

I thought the Area for that spell was a 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on the caster.

And An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell.

A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area.

So you might think that Antilife Shell would push Hilga and the baby out, except...

This spell may be used only defensively, not aggressively. Forcing an abjuration barrier against creatures that the spell keeps at bay collapses the barrier.

I think casting it within range of life would count as Forcing an abjuration barrier against creatures.

So I don't think the spell should have worked.

[Keltest]

The effect moves with Durkula, so he will need to order Hilgya to keep pace with him if he does, or she will be forced into the shell and it will be dispelled. Meaning that if she does break the domination, Durkula will either need to lose the protection of the shell, or be trapped in there with her in easy reach of touch spells.

The spell doesn't prevent the exit of living creatures, only the entrance. If she just stood still while he ran off, the spell would be fine as long as he didn't then try to return to his original seat.

[Fyraltari]

Okay, if Roy doesn't give Hilgya a lecture on parenting (or she spontaneously remarks on how ****ty her behaviour was) I'll answer for nothing.


Why is the vampire Durkon arnor-clad in his mind, while he chooses ribes over armor? Is it just a holdover from when he first awoke or something?
Note that Spirit!Lurkon doesn't have fangs. He is not modelled after what Lurkon looks like but after what Durkon looks like.

The characters of the OotS are notoriously poorly built. Look at Roy, for example: he has not properly dump-statted his Int score, and he has skill points invested in non-combat skills that don't apply to mobility. I know a couple of players who could munchkin the OotS characters for upwards of 50% increase in combat effectiveness.
But would they tell as good a story with these characters?


Fun Fact: 25,000 gp is exactly the price of a True Resurrection.

So I assume Durkon's father actually is alive? Who could he be, because I assume his reveal will change something there.
He's obviously Xykon, I mean, come on, it's all but confirmed.


I may be in error, but I believe the appropriate proclamation is, "Totally called it."
I wouyld sig that if I were you.

That is one of the many obvious questions. Why mom still lacks an arm and why they live in poverty are questions, too.
Living in poverty sounds like the logical consequence to giving 250000 gold pieces to my ears.

[Peelee]

Would durkon on his worst day really risk the life of his baby? or was that just a grand speech by undurkon to mess with real durkon?

Durkon on his worst day wasn't Evil. The vampire is not Durkon on his worst day. Taken at face value, the vampire's motivations and feelings may originate from that, but it's not right to say it's directly transitional.

What did you do with your winnings? Buy a cup of coffee? :smallcool:

Enrolled in Greendale.

[Arkain]

Just yesterday I was wondering how long it's been since the last update and here we are :smallbiggrin:

[Fyraltari]

Would durkon on his worst day really risk the life of his baby? or was that just a grand speech by undurkon to mess with real durkon?
Wether Durkon would risk the life of his baby only matters to wether Lurkon would risk the life of his (the vampire's) baby, not Durkon's. Kudzu is not Lurkon's baby any more Than Sigdi is Lurkon's mother or Roy Lurkon's friend.

Durkon on his worst day wasn't Evil.

But someone who is constently Durkon on his worst day would be evil, no? Because your alignment depends on who you are at all times, if I understand correctly how D&D works?

[KorvinStarmast]

Or, because we don't know the whole story, it might be a whole lot more complicated than that. My money is on this, right now. Yeah, I'll drop a two dollar side bet on this one.

I won Dungeons and Dragons! What did you do with your winnings? Buy a cup of coffee? :smallcool:

The Starmast Review says:
Battle Cry was a great book by Leon Uris (Not sure how Marines figure into this, but there ya go)

Elan's fibs are so over the top silly that they are enjoyable

Haley: she needs a bow string. While Elan isn't in danger, she's likely not attacking anyone

Mr Scruffy: get through to Belkar, keep trying. Save Blackwing yet again

Bloodfeast Extreminator: where are you?

Minrah: hanging in there. Her versus Belkar can't end well for her, so more Mr Scruffy heroics seem in order.

Hilgya: baby crying looks like a trigger

Roy: Do I have to do this whole thing myself? Yes, Roy, you do. But you'll get by with a little help from your friends

V: out of the fight. V was out of a lot of the fight with the upgraded Vector Legion in BRiTF. Not worried.

Sigdi: other shoe will drop. Not gonna forecast.

Durkula: smart move to put baby between him and Roy's throwing sword. (but also evil, in terms of using baby as a shield ... well yeah, vampire. Evil). Not sure what spell Ponchula is casting there.

Good strip, and it is very nice that we got the two page/Sunday funnies version of the battle's varied actions and sub scenes.

Thank you Giant!

[TRH]

I don't think True Resurrection is on the table either, but I have wondered why the characters brought it up after they beat the Linear Guild the second time, then. If he really wanted to get across that the spell may as well not exist, then Haley should have been rebutted on that point. Eh.

[Peelee]

But someone who is constently Durkon on his worst day would be evil, no? Because your alignment depends on who you are at all times, if I understand correctly how D&D works?

Eh, even then he didn't actually do anything, just thought some things. By the Ponchella Theorem, we can assume that having thoughts but not acting on them does not make one Evil, The Ponchella Corollary states that this assumes cleric of Thor must be non-Evil.

[GregTD]

I would expect Helga to get a rather serious "re-save, with bonus" when she's told to give her baby to any vampire

Giving to Durkon? That's got to be an "I would never do that!!!"

[Snails]

I
Would durkon on his worst day really risk the life of his baby? or was that just a grand speech by undurkon to mess with real durkon?

I think that it is just a grand speech.

Because the real Durkon had bad days but also possessed the capacity to turn it around and make a better decision even on those bad days. That he did not do so on some of his bad days only makes him human. That he did better on some bad days, well, those are days that Greg does not bother to talk about.

I would like to see evidence that what Greg is saying is actually true. Is Greg someone who is capable of choosing Good sometimes even when he has adequate logical reasons for choosing Evil? If not, then, no, he is not literally Durkon on a bad day.

[Rogar Demonblud]

This is the same woman who willing took her infant into a pitched battle with a coven of vampires. Risk to Kudzu is not a trigger for her.

[Ganbatte]

Wait.... so Durkon's mother cucked his father with a troll?

[Keltest]

I would expect Helga to get a rather serious "re-save, with bonus" when she's told to give her baby to any vampire

Giving to Durkon? That's got to be an "I would never do that!!!"
One of the effects of being dominated is that they wont take any actions not necessary for day to day survival and what they are explicitly ordered to do. Unless Greg explicitly commanded her to hand over Kudzu, it wouldn't have triggered an additional save, since she wasn't being ordered to do anything.

[Snails]

This is the same woman who willing took her infant into a pitched battle with a coven of vampires. Risk to Kudzu is not a trigger for her.

Hilgya is triggered by Lawful. Not Evil.

Whether Greg is LE or NE or CE is not apparent, so Hilgya does not care.

[Anarion]

That’s quite a bit of respect for Roy. Trying to prevent any mode of attacking and bringing in Hilgya as well. Also, using the baby that way is the worst, and the evil vampire is very evil. Here’s hoping the memory disrupts him more than expected.

[AutomatedTeller]

Belkar has his dagger back, which means Minrah let him take it back, which seems like a bad thing for her to do.

Elan is hilarious.

OOTS seems kind of screwed here. Roy can't really hurt Durkula without killing Kudzu.

What did Ponchula do to Roy's sword?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Roy teleported it back to his hand.

[Peelee]

Roy teleported it back to his hand.

I think he meant Roy snapping out of Super Saiyan mode, or Ponchula casting a spell in the final panel.

[Resileaf]

The spell Ponchula is casting is unrelated to Roy's green glow disappearing. It visibly stops glowing because he realizes Durkon is using Kudzu as a dwarven shield, and he was so shocked he just couldn't hold the aura up.

[Fyraltari]

Eh, even then he didn't actually do anything, just thought some things. By the Ponchella Theorem, we can assume that having thoughts but not acting on them does not make one Evil, The Ponchella Corollary states that this assumes cleric of Thor must be non-Evil.
I mean he couldn't do anything back then besides kicking the snow. Durkon's reaction to this memory tells me that he believes that, at this very moment he was serious that, if Asmodeus, or whoever, had popped up with a doom-all-dwarves deal he would have taken it. He would have regretted it only moments after, because that's who Durkon is, but he would have taken it. To be Evil, one needs to act on Evil intentions, for As long as Durkon had the intentions, he didn't have the means to act on them. Then hi anger turned to resignation and sadness as he made his way into the world. Durkon* however, has the intentions and the means to follow them through.

Also, I should probably state my headcannon, that "Your worst day personnified" is an oversimplification of the fact that seeing that memory first colored every single other one and that Jerkon did not have any other memories before. When Durkon* learnt about love, trust, faith, etc as Durkon did, he could remember that Durkon would eventually be betrayed by his people. His life was, mostly, the same as Durkon but seen through a lense of betrayal and suffering. That's why he is like Durkon, but evil.
That's only my headcanon, though. It's not what is said in-comic but I think it fits, don't you?

I think that it is just a grand speech.

Because the real Durkon had bad days but also possessed the capacity to turn it around and make a better decision even on those bad days. That he did not do so on some of his bad days only makes him human. That he did better on some bad days, well, those are days that Greg does not bother to talk about.

I would like to see evidence that what Greg is saying is actually true. Is Greg someone who is capable of choosing Good sometimes even when he has adequate logical reasons for choosing Evil? If not, then, no, he is not literally Durkon on a bad day.
Greg is free-willed, that means he does have the ability to act Good, he just choses not to, like Tarquin doesn't either.

What did Ponchula do to Roy's sword?
What are you talking about?

[Gluteus_Maximus]

That's just cruel. Hilgya is gonna be sooo pissed. And Durkon is within Harms reach :smallbiggrin:

More like within Heal's reach :smalltongue:

[Ralanr]

Wouldn't the baby die instantly in an Anti-life shell?

Like, I get the use for dramatic effect and the Giant doesn't strictly to game rules when telling a story, but I feel like that Baby wouldn't last long enough to cry in an anti-life shell.

Or maybe idk how anti-life shell works.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Roy almost killed Durkula's true love (the chair that he was slow-dancing with in panel 8 of 1123)! How cruel!

Durkula, realizing how short and precious life is, decides to adopt Kudzu and start a family with his beloved chair.

[hamishspence]

Or maybe idk how anti-life shell works.

It's a barrier designed to stop the living from entering:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antilifeShell.htm

but it's not a harmful barrier. And beings inside the field are not affected.

[Ralanr]

It's a barrier designed to stop the living from entering:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antilifeShell.htm

but it's not a harmful barrier. And beings inside the field are not affected.

Ok, I thought it was painful to the living inside as well. Thanks.

[Snails]

Greg is free-willed, that means he does have the ability to act Good, he just choses not to, like Tarquin doesn't either.

Irrelevant.

My point is that until Greg demonstrates he will once in a blue moon choose to act Good, I deny that he is actually Durkon on a bad day. Because even on those bad days, I strongly suspect Durkon would have chosen Good sometimes if the moment so happened to arrive. Cursing to heavens is not even an Evil act (unless backed by overt magical power). It is just an unfortunate emotion with words.

In other words, the claim that taking a subset of a person's emotions/feelings/beliefs makes a version of the original person is simply untrue. Greg may well sincerely believe it is true, given his origin and minimal experience of the world. And it is an effective psychological weapon against Durkon, at least until Durkon fully realizes such is wrong.

[BlueHydra]

Nobody puts baby on a corpse.

[Fyraltari]

My point is that until Greg demonstrates he will once in a blue moon choose to act Good, I deny that he is actually Durkon on a bad day. Because even on those bad days, I strongly suspect Durkon would have chosen Good sometimes if the moment so happened to arrive.
Neither I, nor the comic, have to abide by your headcanons. You are demanding that a character that, by the look of it, only has a few in-comic days to exist to behave in a way that runs directly againstwhat he his trying to achieve. That is not, to me, a reasonnable standard of evidence to ask for.

Cursing to heavens is not even an Evil act (unless backed by overt magical power). It is just an unfortunate emotion with words.
Irrelevant.

In other words, the claim that taking a subset of a person's emotions/feelings/beliefs makes a version of the original person is simply untrue. Greg may well sincerely believe it is true, given his origin and minimal experience of the world. And it is an effective psychological weapon against Durkon, at least until Durkon fully realizes such is wrong.
That's not what I said.

Lurkon is the same as Durkon was on his worst day, that means the same as Durkon with the emphasis shifted from the nobler parts of his personnality to the vilest.

[Larsen]

Would killing some spawn mean belkar (for example) might not be dominated any more ? And since he has glasses on, we won't (and nether Greg) know until the time is best for a good surprise ?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Would killing some spawn mean belkar (for example) might not be dominated any more ? And since he has glasses on, we won't (and nether Greg) know until the time is best for a good surprise ?

Vampiric domination (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm) works like Dominate Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dominatePerson.htm), and thus does not end with the death of the vampire. The closest it gets is that a dead vampire cannot spend 1 round per day concentrating on keeping the domination going, thus granting the subject a saving throw that day.

"If you don’t spend at least 1 round concentrating on the spell each day, the subject receives a new saving throw to throw off the domination."

(There are other ways a subject can be granted a new save, none as directly related to the timely demise of the vampire)

GW

[Fyraltari]

Would killing some spawn mean belkar (for example) might not be dominated any more ? And since he has glasses on, we won't (and nether Greg) know until the time is best for a good surprise ?

Belkar was dominated by Ponchella, not the spawns.

[AutomatedTeller]

The spell Ponchula is casting is unrelated to Roy's green glow disappearing. It visibly stops glowing because he realizes Durkon is using Kudzu as a dwarven shield, and he was so shocked he just couldn't hold the aura up.

Oh, that makes sense. That both things were green must have confused me. Roy better be getting his sword mojo back, though, cause the rapidly shrinking order needs it pretty badly.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Belkar was dominated by Ponchella, not the spawns.

I don't think we can tell who dominated whom.

GW

[Rogar Demonblud]

She explicitly comments on how easy it is to make him hurt others.

[Nion]

It's a barrier designed to stop the living from entering:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antilifeShell.htm

but it's not a harmful barrier. And beings inside the field are not affected.

I thought the Area for that spell was a 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on the caster.

And An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell.

A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area.

[Kashem]

So the thought now is that Durkon did not know something about his Father's death, or that what Squeaky told him in 991 was partially incorrect, or at minimum incomplete.
So the question is, what part?
I've got decent odds on the last crayon panel "When the clerics examined her, they discovered she was pregnant. With you."
Notable here because she donated a huge sum of money to those same clerics. Here are a couple of theories:

Squeaky is a bard, or close enough. "With you." is redundant, as Durkon has no brothers or sisters. A 25k donation to adopt a child and have them treat it as her blood?

A 25k donation to somehow secure some kind of magical artificial insemination so that Sigdi could have something left of Tenrin? What would be the cost of a Miracle be? Maybe the reason that the High Priest of Thor at the time could no longer cast Regeneration was because the gods demanded such a high price for the miracle she wanted?

What if Sigdi, or Tenrin, were infertile? A 25k donation for a wish for her to be able to carry a child anyway?

Or, my most morbid, but also kind of beautiful thought:
In the same panel, "The baby survived??"
What if she miscarried, and the 25k was a True Resurrection (or Miracle)... for Durkon? We already know that Odin sees all, and he had plans for Durkon. He could very well have sent his high-priest to make sure that the child survived (or was brought back), but had her donate to the temple of Thor instead, to help secure Durkon's future there. Durkon was likely only a collection of cells at the time, so having a "part of his body" would likely have been virtually impossible anyway. I could see that as a legitimate, not plot-destroying use for the True Resurrection spell.

Just some thoughts.

[ProfLucario]

Oof, things are not looking well for Team Good Guys. Looking at their current situation, it seems like the most viable strategy would be for Roy to try to grapple Belkar so that Minrah can successfully heal V, though that would require disengaging from Elan first (I've only played 5e, so I'm not sure if the Disengage rules are different in 3.5e).

On an unrelated note, I love how everyone talking about the comic calls Vampire Durkon / Durkula / Greg / etc. something different.

[Xianthe]

On an unrelated note, I love how everyone talking about the comic calls Vampire Durkon / Durkula / Greg / etc. something different.

Well, there is precedent, after all. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1030.html)

[Coolio Wolfus]

Am usually ignored here but...

My thoughts are that the temple of Thor put out a request for donations to raise a certain Troll to prevent a Dwarven/Troll war breaking out.

Rez husband vs res troll and stop a war.

Hmmmm.

That would also explain the pension, lifetime interest payments to cover her losses, financial and husband.

[Evergone]

Ok, no idea how exactly this is going to play out, but I'm recording a few things so I can check them off later and see how wrong I was (and yes, I know I'm not the first to come up with at least some of these).

Things I expect to come up with respect to Durkon's father:
947 (Keep in Mind (!)), panel 9: Di. Nae. Le. Go.
963 (Internal Struggles), panel 5: ye should na help someone witout askin’ first. Ye might make things worse if’n ye do.
991 (A Sergeant and a Sapper), panel 1 on page 3: Durkon: So…Pa died a hero.
Thirden: Yes.

Guess: Tenrin did not die a hero, somehow Sigdi tried to help him, but her interference led to his death (and the loss of her arm). Which makes it possible that he's actually with Hel rather than Thor (could be him in 1081, panel 1, but I don't actually think so).
I don't think Thirden lied, I think he told the truth as he knows it, but as Sigdi tells Durkon here, it's not the complete story. As is already obvious from 991, as Durkon himself alludes to.

These are all threads that seem like they can come together nicely, but I can't work out exactly how - but part of me doesn't want to. I guess I don't want to spoil myself by figuring out the resolution before the climax.

[Dion]

Belkar has his dagger back, which means Minrah let him take it back, which seems like a bad thing for her to do

Haven’t you ever played table top D&D?

PCs always get thrown weapons back at the end of every round, except under two rare circumstances:

1) the DM is keeping track of who threw what, or
2) another PC is a being a jerk and tells the DM.

In all other cases, the PCs always get their weapons back, in the same way they always have enough arrows, they always have spell components, and they always have 5,000 feet of rope and enough ten foot poles to build a small barge (and enough small sacks to sew together a sail for that barge).

[Nion]

I've got it. Evil Durkon is Durkon's father.

[Sebastian]

The characters of the OotS are notoriously poorly built. Look at Roy, for example: he has not properly dump-statted his Int score, and he has skill points invested in non-combat skills that don't apply to mobility. I know a couple of players who could munchkin the OotS characters for upwards of 50% increase in combat effectiveness.

Kudzu on Durkula's lap may seem like a wise move to Durkula, but I get the feeling that it's the first step in his defeat.


I don't know if it the same in America but here (Italy) it was used to say that baby's piss was"holy" (pipì santa) :tongue:

[godsflunky]

The lock of hair would've needed to have been part of the body at death. Not cut off earlier as a memento.


The body part in question needs to have been part of the corpse at the time of death for it to count.

Thanks, folks. That's about what I was expecting, but I wasn't sure.


Also, unimportant, but it stopped being AD&D with 3rd edition and became just D&D.

Shows what I know!

[Dion]

I've got it. Evil Durkon is Durkon's father.

So that makes Hilgya his sister!

Also, Han shot first.

[Sebastian]

I thought the Giant was on record as stating he really doesn't like True Resurrection? To the point of that it might as well not exist in StickWorld? After all, Laurin and Tarquin seemed pretty confident that Nale wasn't coming back, blood on the pleather wrappings or not. 17th level clerics are probably pretty hard to find though, even if 25k in components aren't.

True Rez existing does seem like the narrative reason though for her correcting Durkon that it was 25k, not 20k.

Streamofthesky, at this point I'm just rolling with the Order's constantly failed saves. Treat it like how most movies handle guns, and stop counting how many times the hero gets to shoot without reloading. I think the story more than makes up for it.

Maybe his father is dead, she collected the money for a TR,but before doing it she contacted him/was contacted somehow and he told her that he didn't want to come back because he had to stay death to do ... something.

Clue Durkon's ghost-dad appearing and kicking not-durkon- undead ass.

[nocoolnamejim]

Yes, yes it is. This is the kind of action a Lawful Evil individual would take after promising no to hurt a baby.

GW

Exactly. Letter of the law, not the spirit of it. He hasn't broken his promise. He hasn't hurt the kid in any way.

Oh and btw, everybody who called Hilgya out for being a terrible mother for wearing her baby into battle on the front of her chest rather than leave it behind in safety are proven 100% right.

[FlawedParadigm]

Why do people keep saying Belkar has his dagger back? He's holding one dagger and one stake, not two daggers.

[Ghosty]

I'm certainly not the Giant, but if I had to offer a guess, it's probably something to do with Greg being the embodiment of Durkon's lowest moment. If memory serves, he was robed when he was thrown out of dwarven lands, and even when he was armored in the flashback, perhaps he still thought of himself as an acolyte instead of an adventurer. So Greg naturally has more affinity for robes instead.

Just a thought.

I've been wondering about that too, and your elegant answer makes the most sense of any I've heard of.

[Resileaf]

Why do people keep saying Belkar has his dagger back? He's holding one dagger and one stake, not two daggers.

He's been using a dagger and a stake since they've got into the dwarven lands.

[nocoolnamejim]

Antilife Shell doesn't harm living beings, just makes people outside the shell unable to cross it.

However, using the baby as a shield against Roy's bastard sword is effectively putting him in harm's way.

I'd disagree with this because, by now, Greg knows Roy enough to know that there's absolutely no way he'd throw his sword at he'd throw his sword again with the baby hostage in the way.

So he's sticking to the true letter of the law once again. The baby isn't in harms way anymore than before. But now Greg's not in harm's way either.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Why do people keep saying Belkar has his dagger back? He's holding one dagger and one stake, not two daggers.

He threw one of his daggers last strip. People seem to keep forgetting that with one hand holding the stake, he has a spare dagger at the moment (perhaps many).

[SilverCacaobean]

Or, because we don't know the whole story, it might be a whole lot more complicated than that. My money is on this, right now.

Well, I'm sure Durkon will eventually succeed magnificently, because so many panels spent on the memory without awesome effect would instantly break Elan's heart!
Mine too.

Wow, that phrase turned out to be unexpectedly efficient.


Kudzu isn't human! Stop oppressing dwarfen culture, you anthrocentric stretch!

*anthropocentric. I know, I know, I'm annoying.


I think we're one comic away from learning in what context Sigdi gave that "doing your duty especially when it makes you miserable" line. Can't wait. Then again, I thought the same thing about this one.

Also Thirden said something about subtext when he told Durkon about his dad's death, so it's likely he knew more than he said and Durkon might figure out what the subtext was now that he'll hear the whole story.

[nocoolnamejim]

Vampiric domination (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm) works like Dominate Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dominatePerson.htm), and thus does not end with the death of the vampire. The closest it gets is that a dead vampire cannot spend 1 round per day concentrating on keeping the domination going, thus granting the subject a saving throw that day.

"If you don’t spend at least 1 round concentrating on the spell each day, the subject receives a new saving throw to throw off the domination."

(There are other ways a subject can be granted a new save, none as directly related to the timely demise of the vampire)

GW

Question for clarification.

If you kill the spawn, they can no longer give orders though, right? And since the dominated person won't act without orders, shouldn't the PCs that were controlled by underlings stop acting since they aren't getting orders?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Wow, what a strip! Kudos to a) the people who deduced correctly that Sigdi had made a large donation, and b) the folks who predicted that bringing Kudzu to the fight would indeed prove to have consequences. Although, I do have to wonder if this gambit by the High Priest of Hel will backfire with Hilgya eventually being able to snap out of the spell. Also, incredibly annoyed at how the High Priest of Hel dismisses the memory. I want to find out what Sigdi will say, Thordamnit! (Loved her line about handouts too!)

Also, Dominated Elan is a very humorous touch to anotherwise very heavy strip.

[Peelee]

Haven’t you ever played table top D&D?

PCs always get thrown weapons back at the end of every round, except under two rare circumstances:

1) the DM is keeping track of who threw what, or
2) another PC is a being a jerk and tells the DM.

In all other cases, the PCs always get their weapons back, in the same way they always have enough arrows, they always have spell components, and they always have 5,000 feet of rope and enough ten foot poles to build a small barge (and enough small sacks to sew together a sail for that barge).

Arrows are tracked. Spell components (at least, those not in the pouch, which are explicitly enough for your general spellcasting) are tracked. Thrown items are tracked. Inventory is tracked, and in-game shopping is a thing.

Do y'all not count spells per day or HP either?

[Jay R]

This is a story, not a game; there are no dice.

"A successful saving throw against Domination is never late. Nor is it early. It arrives precisely when the author means for it to."


I thought the Area for that spell was a 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on the caster.

And An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell.

A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area.

The Giant has made it clear that the rules of D&D will not interfere with his story.


Interesting...assuming wealth by level rules were in play, Durkon's mom either:

1. Was level 8 when she retired to raise Durkon, or

2. Was able to combine her husband's WBL with her own at level 6 when he died (minus any equipment on his physical body), ...

... or WBL levels weren't allowed to interfere with the story.

[Peelee]

"A successful saving throw against Domination is never late. Nor is it early. It arrives precisely when the author means for it to."

This was a BS answer and they both knew it.

[Fyraltari]

This was a BS answer and they both knew it.

Gandalf keeps missing everybody by a few days/hours and then claims to always be on time. Come on, Olorin, you're better than this.

[Matt620]

It took me a second to release that the Antilife Shell wouldn't be collasped, as Greg is not using it to push out Hilgya or Kudzu. But it is a little weird that the baby would cry immediately.

I am curious what will happen next, though. That is good.

[Jasdoif]

... or WBL levels weren't allowed to interfere with the story.Or Sigdi's an NPC, and not intended to be held to PC wealth-by-level expectations.

[eilandesq]

A small baby isn't a very effective shield--even in the sense of "the attack will hit the baby and go through without reducing damage at all"-- for a low Dex character wearing (apparently) unenchanted robes. If Roy takes a moment to focus, he can keep throwing his sword at uncovered areas with a very small chance that Durkula can move Kuzdu in the way of the attack (and if he's keeping his word to Durkon, he won't even try to do that, which Roy will notice after the first time). Simply giving up (and conceding the destruction of the world) in the face of such a crappy tactic would be a major Stupid Good moment.

[Resileaf]

A small baby isn't a very effective shield--even in the sense of "the attack will hit the baby and go through without reducing damage at all"-- for a low Dex character wearing (apparently) unenchanted robes. If Roy takes a moment to focus, he can keep throwing his sword at uncovered areas with a very small chance that Durkula can move Kuzdu in the way of the attack. Simply giving up (and conceding the destruction of the world) in the face of such a crappy tactic would be a major Stupid Good moment.

Oh, sure, that's easy to say from your side of the keyboard, but until you've had to throw a greatsword at a baby, you have no leg to stand on.

[Jay R]

"A successful saving throw against Domination is never late. Nor is it early. It arrives precisely when the author means for it to."
This was a BS answer and they both knew it.

Red herring duly noted. Meanwhile, back at the discussion, the saving throws against Domination will arrive precisely when the author means for them to.


Arrows are tracked.

Are they? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0904.html)


... Spell components (at least, those not in the pouch, which are explicitly enough for your general spellcasting) are tracked. Thrown items are tracked. Inventory is tracked, and in-game shopping is a thing.

Do y'all not count spells per day or HP either?

:belkar:: Geez, what is it with that guy and needing to figure out all the fiddly little details?

-------------------


He's obviously Xykon, I mean, come on, it's all but confirmed.

No, not at all. It's kind of a convoluted situation, but once you realize what species the Monster in the Darkness is, and what Vaarsuvius's gender is, then the current whereabouts of Durkon's father is obvious.

[nocoolnamejim]

It took me a second to release that the Antilife Shell wouldn't be collasped, as Greg is not using it to push out Hilgya or Kudzu. But it is a little weird that the baby would cry immediately.

I am curious what will happen next, though. That is good.

My theory on that is that the baby isn't used to being held by anyone but Hilgya.

[Dion]

Arrows are tracked. Spell components (at least, those not in the pouch, which are explicitly enough for your general spellcasting) are tracked. Thrown items are tracked. Inventory is tracked, and in-game shopping is a thing.

Do y'all not count spells per day or HP either?

When you play on a computer, they’re tracked.

When you play face to face, they’re “tracked”.

The only thing I’ve ever seen a real face-to-face DM actually track were the number of slices of pizza left in the box.

Belkar got his dagger back because that’s just how the D&D universe works.

[Jasdoif]

I've got it. Evil Durkon is Durkon's father.I seriously doubt it. Realistically, it makes less than no sense; dramatically, it's too obvious to be a twist.

[luagha]

I thought Durkula was Lawful Evil and agreed to let Durkon's family live. This... does not seem to be him upholding his end of that bargain.

He hasn't harmed a hair on little sprout's head.

And since Roy never had a chance to pick up Point Blank and Precise Shot, well, he's not even going to try to make the shot.

[Larsen]

Belkar got his dagger back because that’s just how the D&D universe works.

In 1125, just after the throw we see belkar drawing a new dagger (grey handle in his left hand).

[Ironsmith]

It took me a second to release that the Antilife Shell wouldn't be collapsed, as Greg is not using it to push out Hilgya or Kudzu. But it is a little weird that the baby would cry immediately.

Well, I seem to recall somewhere that animals (i.e. dogs, cats, livestock, etc) tend to be nervous/skittish around undead creatures... maybe that same thing applies for very young children?

[Peelee]

Are they? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0904.html)


When you play on a computer, they’re tracked.

When you play face to face, they’re “tracked”.

The only thing I’ve ever seen a real face-to-face DM actually track were the number of slices of pizza left in the box.

Belkar got his dagger back because that’s just how the D&D universe works.

Jay R. has the right answer; Belkar got his dagger back because that's how the OotS universe works*. The D&D universe has a nice little tracking area on the sheet for your arrows. Your houserules don't equate to how the game works.

Also, Jay, less of a red herring than a gripe about people who use that line to talk about how Gandalf was awesome. I love Gandalf and all, but that was pure and utter snark, and it gets taken at face value way too often. I did enjoy your use of it, but still wanted to take a swing. I die on hills.

*Even then, in this case, it's been pointed out he draws a new dagger. Cheers to Larsen for finding that!

[/end grumpy old man rant]

[Resileaf]

In 1125, just after the throw we see belkar drawing a new dagger (grey handle in his left hand).

Huh. I hadn't noticed at all he was drawing something. Good catch. You have better eyes than I do.

[Jasdoif]

I die on hills.So if Operation Plains-Or-Mountains-But-Never-Inbetween is a success, you'll live forever?

[AlurenDarkfire]

Hilgya will break the domination first. High Will save, and just the fact that Durkon had her hand over Kudzu to him has got to force at least ONE reroll, let alone using him as a living shield.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Question for clarification.

If you kill the spawn, they can no longer give orders though, right? And since the dominated person won't act without orders, shouldn't the PCs that were controlled by underlings stop acting since they aren't getting orders?

Nope, they'll continue to follow previously given orders to the best of their ability. Once that's no longer possible, then they'll just stand around doing the absolute minimum needed to keep themselves alive (that is to say, breathing and occasionally taking a drink of water).

[warmachine]

So Hilgya, a high level Cleric, fails a Will save to be Dominated, then fails a Will save to attack an ally who's attacking someone she utterly, utterly hates, then fails a Will save to hand her loved child to someone she utterly, utterly hates. Unless we go with Hilgya is merely putting on an act of self-deception and she really loves Durkon.

[Peelee]

So if Operation Plains-Or-Mountains-But-Never-Inbetween is a success, you'll live forever?

https://i.imgflip.com/2dywag.jpg

[Dion]

The D&D universe has a nice little tracking area on the sheet for your arrows.

Right. Sometimes the player controlling the PC has a character sheet with a smudged up little box to track arrows. Sometimes the player controlling the PC even makes random little squiggles in that box during play.

Heck, sometimes the player writes and erases squiggles in that box so often that it wears through the paper.

But no player I’ve ever played with has ever run out of arrows, and I can’t imaine a DM that has actually ever tracked arrows for a player, like you are claiming that DMs do.

[ThePhantasm]

Jay, less of a red herring than a gripe about people who use that line to talk about how Gandalf was awesome. I love Gandalf and all, but that was pure and utter snark, and it gets taken at face value way too often. I did enjoy your use of it, but still wanted to take a swing. I die on hills.

Sort of. In context it was snark. In storytelling terms, it was foreshadowing of all the times in LOTR that Gandalf shows up in precisely the nick of time (a bit like the Mechane).

[Ironsmith]

Sort of. In context it was snark. In storytelling terms, it was foreshadowing of all the times in LOTR that Gandalf shows up in precisely the nick of time (a bit like the Mechane).

Foreshadowing or lampshade hanging? :smalltongue:

[Peelee]

Right. Sometimes the player controlling the PC has a character sheet with a smudged up little box to track arrows. Sometimes the player controlling the PC even makes random little squiggles in that box during play.

Heck, sometimes the player writes and erases squiggles in that box so often that it wears through the paper.

But no player I’ve ever played with has ever run out of arrows, and I can’t imaine a DM that has actually ever tracked arrows for a player, like you are claiming that DMs do.

Eh, I'm not saying all DMs track arrows. You, however, are saying all DMs don't track arrows (and material components, and hundreds of feet of rope or poles, and whatever else y'all don't track), and that's how the universe is built. If y'all play like that and enjoy it, more power to you. But if you're going to make claims about the comic based on your houserules, don't be surprised if you're called on it.

Sort of. In context it was snark. In storytelling terms, it was foreshadowing of all the times in LOTR that Gandalf shows up in precisely the nick of time (a bit like the Mechane).

Ha! Never thought about it like that. Because yeah, the number of times Gandalf arrives almost too late (especially in The Hobbit, which I'm rereading right now) is shockingly high.

[nocoolnamejim]

Nope, they'll continue to follow previously given orders to the best of their ability. Once that's no longer possible, then they'll just stand around doing the absolute minimum needed to keep themselves alive (that is to say, breathing and occasionally taking a drink of water).

Ah. Thank you. I appreciate the help.

[Fyraltari]

Sort of. In context it was snark. In storytelling terms, it was foreshadowing of all the times in LOTR that Gandalf shows up in precisely the nick of time (a bit like the Mechane).

He does that only once, though, at Helm's Deep.

[WolvesbaneIII]

And then the next comic title will be "Deadbeat Dad". :smallamused:

Good one. Heh.

[Toper]

Nope, they'll continue to follow previously given orders to the best of their ability. Once that's no longer possible, then they'll just stand around doing the absolute minimum needed to keep themselves alive (that is to say, breathing and occasionally taking a drink of water).
I understand that is a good technical interpretation of the 3e rules, but narratively I would expect the domination effect to drop when the dominator does.

[Dion]

Eh, I'm not saying all DMs track arrows. You, however, are saying all DMs don't track arrows

Yep. If a DM decided to track arrows for a player, I think that would be a crazy house rule.

Also, vi is better than emacs.

[Doug Lampert]

This is the same woman who willing took her infant into a pitched battle with a coven of vampires. Risk to Kudzu is not a trigger for her.

Don't you know, absolutely EVERYTHING justifies a new save.

Attack someone you've previously been willing to attack, new save, with a bonus.
Risk the child you were willingly risking, new save, with a bonus.
Go for icecream with sprinkles, new save, with a bonus.

Absolutely everything is a violation of Hilgya's basic nature. The law of gravity is a LAW (aka lawful), and it targets her if she follows your orders: New Save! It acts on her even if you don't give new orders: New Save!

Seriously, at this point I can't imagine what would NOT be argued by someone on this board to give a new save.

[Doug Lampert]

Yep. If a DM decided to track arrows for a player, I think that would be a crazy house rule.

Also, vi is better than emacs.
vi is wonderful, for most purposes it is vastly faster and more efficient than "modern" editors. But they keep trying to make it default to vim. Bah, if I wanted fancy color coding that tries to figure out what I'm doing I wouldn't be using vi. So I need to edit my .cshrc and .bashrc files to alias it back to /bin/vi.

[SilverCacaobean]

Tracking arrows seems like the kind of thing that sounds like a good idea before you begin playing.


So, if we assume that Hilgya giving away Kudzu is against her nature and that action would give her a will save does that mean that if Greg ordered her to come next to him and then he just took Kudzu himself she didn't get a will save because it wasn't her own action or not?

[Nion]

When you play on a computer, they’re tracked.

When you play face to face, they’re “tracked”.

The only thing I’ve ever seen a real face-to-face DM actually track were the number of slices of pizza left in the box.

Belkar got his dagger back because that’s just how the D&D universe works.

When I DM, I expect my players to honestly track all their own stuff, and when I am a player, I do likewise.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Question for clarification.

If you kill the spawn, they can no longer give orders though, right? And since the dominated person won't act without orders, shouldn't the PCs that were controlled by underlings stop acting since they aren't getting orders?

They keep obeying the last order given to the best of their ability."Once you have given a dominated creature a command, it continues to attempt to carry out that command to the exclusion of all other activities except those necessary for day-to-day survival (such as sleeping, eating, and so forth)"

GW

[Rogar Demonblud]

When I DM, I expect my players to honestly track all their own stuff, and when I am a player, I do likewise.

I stopped expecting players to be honest about what they have after a game where they miraculously pulled multiple fusion mini-bombs out of their back pockets. Now I track everything, and catch somebody cheating at least once a session.

You'd think they'd learn, but nope.

[Gift Jeraff]

For a moment I forgot what Anti-Life Shell does and thought Durkon just one-shotted the baby. Then I saw Hilgya's lack of damage indicators and remembered it's a barrier and not an aura that damages living beings.

[brian 333]

The rules do not specifically say what happens to the Supernatural version of Dominate, but the majority opinion here and elsewhere on the web says that the victim keeps on doing what the vampire last ordered. The best defense of this is the statement that dominator and victim must be on the same plane to enable the vampire to control the victim, but that being on another plane does not break the domination.

The thing is, a dead vampire does not return to the plane in which it was spawned: it is destroyed and ceases to exist. If the same corpse is used to create a vampire again it will be a new entity because the original vampire spirit has become random negative energy bits floating about.

This, to me, indicates that any active spell or ability with a requirement that it be monitored or maintained would similarly cease to exist. It seems to me that Dominate requires an active mind to maintain it, as it's description shows is required by a daily requirement to spend at least 1 round doing so. Death and desolving into non-existence makes the exercise of such control impossible.

My other objection is for game-rule reasons: a character dominated by a destroyed creature would spend the next twelve days standing around or trying to fulfill the last given order, which would make any adventure grind to a halt as the PCs stand around waiting fof the domination to end. If this involves a campaign, the next monster in the queue gets twelve additional days to prepare for the PCs, and would allow any NPC survivors of the fight a chance to find the tools they need to return and finish off the PCs.

My Ruling

A being which does not exist cannot maintain control of a being which does, and standing around a destroyed vampire's lair for twelve days would be a major disruption of a game. It cannot, in my opinion, be intentional on the part of the designer, to allow a non-existent creature to continue to maintain a Supernatural Ability which requires an active mind to maintain and control.

Therefore, the next save to which the PC is entitled, being unopposed by the user of the Supernatural ability, automatically succeeds and breaks the Domination.

[Sloanzilla]

While there is a very debatable spectrum for "when do you get a second save during dominate?"
I'd say a mother who has a child who starts crying falls into the "resave with a +20 bonus" range.

[Snails]

Neither I, nor the comic, have to abide by your headcanons. You are demanding that a character that, by the look of it, only has a few in-comic days to exist to behave in a way that runs directly againstwhat he his trying to achieve. That is not, to me, a reasonnable standard of evidence to ask for.

That is a lot of words for you to figure out that my opinion is just an opinion.


Lurkon is the same as Durkon was on his worst day, that means the same as Durkon with the emphasis shifted from the nobler parts of his personnality to the vilest.

While that is a perfectly reasonable interpretation of what the vampire is trying to communicate and it is plausible that it is true, there is no logical reason to believe that it is true. The testimony of the vampire is not convincing because if the vampire has it wrong, how would he know?

Furthermore: The vampire provably does not understand some things about Durkon; so, no, Greg is not very much like Durkon with a different shading of alignment or such basic misunderstandings would not be possible.

[TheNecrocomicon]

In 1125, just after the throw we see belkar drawing a new dagger (grey handle in his left hand).

Indeed and well done. I thought that's what I saw too but wasn't entirely sure.

----------

Good old Antilife Shell problems, where have we seen those before? But with Roy unwilling to risk the baby by throwing the sword at Lurkon, obviously (to keep the storytelling from getting repetitive) it's going to require a different method than Roy first tried back at the Godsmoot.

Maybe Roy charges one of the two remaining clerics? Or throws the sword at Hilgya to try and snap her out of the domination, since she would likely survive the hit?

But as to how to get through the Antilife Shell ... well, the usual way major fights go in this strip means that things have to keep getting even more absurdly dire in escalating fashion until almost the very end, or we must be led to believe that they are. Consider: Roy is heavily wounded, V and Blackwing are down, Elan is hopelessly dominated, Haley (if freed) is disarmed, and Minrah can't make much headway due to being lower level. The melee warriors are bogged down and Lurkon has already rid himself of any opponents capable of taking a potshot at him from range.

The only ambiguous factor at this moment is Belkar. Supposedly, the sunglasses didn't break the domination, but what if they did? Belkar could still be playing dominated by fighting the Order to catch Lurkon and his minions off-guard at a critical moment. But Belkar can't cross the Antilife Shell in his current state, and a thrown dagger runs into the same baby-threatening problem as a thrown greatsword would right now.

Here's where the deeply unpopular speculation comes in. Is this perhaps the run-up to Belkar's "take his last breath ever" moment? I could easily see Lurkon deciding to be an even more monumental jerkass and finish the job he saw Malack start by commanding Belkar to be drained to death and then fast-vampirized into a new thrall to further demoralize the Order in front of him, Durkon's spirit inside him, and the audience reading at their screens.

Belkar could look like a new thrall without being one, especially if Roy promptly slays whoever on Lurkon's side does the deed to break the chain of control (maybe even, ironically, the ex-Creed cleric woman who recently explained how vampire spirits and their hosts can happily coexist). What Lurkon fails to realize is that the Order has basically come to terms with Belkar's pending death already, and it wouldn't really faze them. Meanwhile, Belkar could stroll inside the Antilife Shell to the side of his "master" and strike without warning, maybe even in conjunction with Hilgya if Lurkon loses his grip on her.

[Fyraltari]

That is a lot of words for you to figure out that my opinion is just an opinion.
Words. I like 'em.


While that is a perfectly reasonable interpretation of what the vampire is trying to communicate and it is plausible that it is true, there is no logical reason to believe that it is true.
That would be true if this was, say a testimony in a real life trial, this is a comic book, the author chooses what informtion he gives us. That means that the simple fact of being in the comic is itself positive proof (not evidence if I understand the distinguo correctly) of its veracity. In other words. Until something comes along to deny it, why not believe it?


The testimony of the vampire is not convincing because if the vampire has it wrong, how would he know?
This is true for every belief held by everyone ever.


Furthermore: The vampire provably does not understand some things about Durkon; so, no, Greg is not very much like Durkon with a different shading of alignment or such basic misunderstandings would not be possible.
Hum, yes it would be. Durkon* thinks people are self-serving before anything else because people tend to assume other people think and feel like they do and he is self-serving because at the time, Durkon was. See?

[nocoolnamejim]

Therefore, the next save to which the PC is entitled, being unopposed by the user of the Supernatural ability, automatically succeeds and breaks the Domination.

This seems reasonable to me.

[Doug Lampert]

While there is a very debatable spectrum for "when do you get a second save during dominate?"
I'd say a mother who has a child who starts crying falls into the "resave with a +20 bonus" range.

If hearing your baby cry is 10 times more than just being against your fundamental nature then no one would survive to adulthood as their parents would all die of despair and stress within days of the baby's birth.

In fact, hearing your baby cry is routine, and doesn't even get an instant response all of the time, and if you are doing something important the response is often telling your husband or someone else to deal with it.

But thanks for demonstrating the delusion that absolutely anything gives a new save. In fact, it is only orders against your nature that gives a new save, and what order that's against her nature is Greg giving when the baby cries?!

[Snails]

That would be true if this was, say a testimony in a real life trial, this is a comic book, the author chooses what informtion he gives us. That means that the simple fact of being in the comic is itself positive proof (not evidence if I understand the distinguo correctly) of its veracity. In other words. Until something comes along to deny it, why not believe it?

I think what you mean is we have "evidence". Yes, what Greg says is evidence.

My answer is: The same reason I do not believe, say, Tarquin when he claims his bloodbaths of conquest are saving lives in the big picture. While such a claim is within the realm of the plausible, the speaker here (1) could easily not know the truth of the claim, (2) probably does not care about the truth of the claim, in terms of being willing to spend effort to find out, (3) probably does not care about the truth of the claim, in terms of being willing to spend resources to make it true if it turns out to probably not be, and (4) seems to be the kind of person who would enjoy making the claim regardless of the statuses of #1 and #2 and #3.

Greg fits the bill, too. He could easily not know. He may well not care whether it is true. Even if he happened to know it was not true would he refrain from employing an effective psychological weapon against Durkon for the sake of not lying?

Greg is not a convincing witness here.



Hum, yes it would be. Durkon* thinks people are self-serving before anything else because people tend to assume other people think and feel like they do and he is self-serving because at the time, Durkon was. See?

Durkon was self-serving when he was bodily chucked out of his home? He was angry, for very good reasons. What does angry have to do with self-serving?

[Sloanzilla]

Never mind

[Jay R]

When I DM, I expect my players to honestly track all their own stuff, and when I am a player, I do likewise.

I once ran an AD&D 2e game in which I told the players that if the party had somebody with the bowyer/fletcher NWP, they wouldn't have to track arrows. But otherwise, not only would they track them, but I would roll to see if they broke or got lost with each shot.

They took the hint.

[AstralFire]

The True Resurrection wasn't for Durkon's father.

It was for Durkon.

She was pregnant with him at the time. She miscarried due to the severe injuries she faced. The lock of hair that was buried in lieu of his body was one that Sigdi had planned on using to help resurrect -him-, but she chose Durkon over him. And that's not a choice any child should have to learn that their mother made.

[Vessyra]

For those asking about how Belkar got his dagger back, we saw Belkar beginning to draw his back-up dagger in #1125 (second-to-last panel)

Edit: Just realised that had already been noticed.

[Eldritch Queen]

Hello, my name is Alexander. Long time lurker, first time poster. I created an account today just so I could say these words:

**** YOU, VAMPIRE DURKON!!! YOU'VE GONE TOO FAR THIS TIME!

Okay, I'm good.

[Goblin_Priest]

The True Resurrection wasn't for Durkon's father.

It was for Durkon.

She was pregnant with him at the time. She miscarried due to the severe injuries she faced. The lock of hair that was buried in lieu of his body was one that Sigdi had planned on using to help resurrect -him-, but she chose Durkon over him. And that's not a choice any child should have to learn that their mother made.

Deep. I like this.

[Nightcanon]

Specifically, both him and the half-dragon troll were crushed to death in a Hail Mary cave-in he caused after the troll's draconic template made their flaming weapons completely useless. The funeral was empty-casket. That's a very important detail because there's exactly one clerical spell in the SRD with a 25k price tag--True Resurrection. The 9th-level spell you use to bring someone back from death if no remains can be found, assuming that any exist in the first place.

The obvious question now is, why on Earth would a newlywed man and father-to-be pass up a second chance at life with his wife and child? Especially after his widow nearly bankrupted herself trying to bring him back?

Death with honour, and he's drinking at Thor's table in Valhalla? True honour might require that he return to his wife is called, but perhaps it doesn't work like that...

[ThePhantasm]

He does that only once, though, at Helm's Deep.

I think you are right. There are more instances in the Hobbit than LOTR.

[Nion]

The True Resurrection wasn't for Durkon's father.

It was for Durkon.

She was pregnant with him at the time. She miscarried due to the severe injuries she faced. The lock of hair that was buried in lieu of his body was one that Sigdi had planned on using to help resurrect -him-, but she chose Durkon over him. And that's not a choice any child should have to learn that their mother made.

And the reason Durkon was chosen? He did not die with honor.

[Mandor]

This is the straw that breaks EVERYTHING. Durkon is going to snap, the Order may snap...its on folks. Nobody puts Baby in a corner!

Durkon may snap, but I don't think he can do anything particular about it. If emotional rage somehow gave him a power to overthrow the vampire, it would have already happened long before.
HILGYA however, is very likely to get a new save and break free of Domination and wallop Durkon with everything she's got... esp if, author forbid, Kudzu should come to harm.

[AstralFire]

And the reason Durkon was chosen? He did not die with honor.

I didn't think about that. Perfect.

[ti'esar]

I'm not afraid to admit that I can't really put the pieces together here. Durkon's father dying before he was born, Durkon learning he's a father only after he died, the 25,000 gp donation matching a resurrection spell - I think this all has to connect to why he's so certain that this memory at this moment will help beat the vampire, but still can't quite see how.

[AstralFire]

I'm not afraid to admit that I can't really put the pieces together here. Durkon's father dying before he was born, Durkon learning he's a father only after he died, the 25,000 gp donation matching a resurrection spell - I think this all has to connect to why he's so certain that this memory at this moment will help beat the vampire, but still can't quite see how.

Well, if we run with Nion's excellent point, then it means that for a while? Hel had Durkon and Lurkon both in her grips. She would have been the earliest agent of Durkon/Lurkon's misery. Lurkon might take that personally. He does seem to bear Durkon's grudges personified, albeit bolstered beyond any control or reason.

[ThePhantasm]

I just realized Durkula's move here is especially cruel given that he knows about Roy's baby brother dying, and given that he taunted Roy with that in their previous fight. Before, that taunt made Roy's sword ignite, now the threat to a child makes his sword fizzle as he loses focus / the will to fight.

[Thurulian]

I just realized Durkula's move here is especially cruel given that he knows about Roy's baby brother dying, and given that he taunted Roy with that in their previous fight. Before, that taunt made Roy's sword ignite, now the threat to a child makes his sword fizzle as he loses focus / the will to fight.

I almost forgot about that. it seems like this climax is gonna be an epic and emotional one

[Mandor]

I'm guessing Sigdi chose not to have her husband ressurrected becuase he was undeniably, indisputiably, dying with honor in the line of duty.
That makes him absolutely 100% SAFE from Hel.

And to dwarven society, that's about as big a deal as you can get. As we have from Hel herself, Thor guided the dwarves into creating the most honor-bound society the world had ever seen.

If someone you love is dead in way, then ressurecting him becomes selfish, requiring them to risk falling prey to Hel if they die dishonorably in the future.
If would be much more honorable, much more your duty, to allow them to remain dead, and safe from Hel.

And being a dwarf is about doin' yer duty. Even when it makes yeh miserable. ESPECIALLY when it makes yeh miserable.

I think she donated the money in part to make sure she would NEVER have the means to have him ressurrected.

[dmc91356]

I'm guessing Sigdi chose not to have her husband ressurrected becuase he was undeniably, indisputiably, dying with honor in the line of duty.
That makes him absolutely 100% SAFE from Hel.

And to dwarven society, that's about as big a deal as you can get. As we have from Hel herself, Thor guided the dwarves into creating the most honor-bound society the world had ever seen.

If someone you love is dead in way, then ressurecting him becomes selfish, requiring them to risk falling prey to Hel if they die dishonorably in the future.
If would be much more honorable, much more your duty, to allow them to remain dead, and safe from Hel.

And being a dwarf is about doin' yer duty. Even when it makes yeh miserable. ESPECIALLY when it makes yeh miserable.

I think she donated the money in part to make sure she would NEVER have the means to have him ressurrected.


I like this interpretation. Very interesting and, well, dwarfish.

[Peelee]

The True Resurrection wasn't for Durkon's father.

It was for Durkon.

She was pregnant with him at the time. She miscarried due to the severe injuries she faced. The lock of hair that was buried in lieu of his body was one that Sigdi had planned on using to help resurrect -him-, but she chose Durkon over him. And that's not a choice any child should have to learn that their mother made.

Interesting theory, but the lock of hair is irrelevant to it. Resurrection needs it to be part of the person at time of death (it wasn't part of Durkon at any time), and Giants statements of True Res aside, that spell doesn't need any part of the person.

[AstralFire]

Interesting theory, but the lock of hair is irrelevant to it. Resurrection needs it to be part of the person at time of death (it wasn't part of Durkon at any time), and Giants statements of True Res aside, that spell doesn't need any part of the person.

I did consider that, but Resurrection is a lot cheaper than True Resurrection. It means that when she changed plans, she had to spend a lot more money. This same presence of the lock of hair is what rules out a True Resurrection for Durkon's father -- they had a piece of the body they could have used.

[ProfLucario]

Well, there is precedent, after all.

Yes, that's what I was referring to, where the comic gives a ton of names to refer to the vampire, but there's no consensus on which name to actually use.

[enh]

Man, the titles have always been good in this comic, but today's is pure gold.

[Shatteredtower]

In the unlikely event the Giant reads this, I would love--NOT expect, nor request, nor even hope for--the continuation to this story tomorrow. I'm not saying this to pressure him, nor am I in the least bothered in knowing he don't feel the slightest bit of pressure. I only mentioning it because letting him know I'm eager to see what happens next is the highest form of non-hyperbolic praise I could offer.

Even if a swimming pool full of cash might be more welcome.


Oh and btw, everybody who called Hilgya out for being a terrible mother for wearing her baby into battle on the front of her chest rather than leave it behind in safety are proven 100% right.

Are they? I'm afraid I've known too many campaigns where player characters only form bonds with one another, as they've heard one too many stories of NPC love interests and families dying the moment they're out of sight. It's not fair, but I understand why some people become afraid to take that chance.


So Hilgya, a high level Cleric, fails a Will save to be Dominated, then fails a Will save to attack an ally who's attacking someone she utterly, utterly hates...

If that was grounds for a new saving throw, the spell may as well have a new saving throw allowed every round. It just stinks of reaching.

Granted, I'd understand why any party that faced a horde of vampires all capable of casting Dispel Magic would feel entitled to start reaching for any pretext to make a new saving throw--and I'd hope the DM would try to be accommodating as necessity required (or creativity earned), but that's within the context of a game. I'd prefer to see the Giant aim for a higher bar here.

[Jasdoif]

I did consider that, but Resurrection is a lot cheaper than True Resurrection. It means that when she changed plans, she had to spend a lot more money. This same presence of the lock of hair is what rules out a True Resurrection for Durkon's father -- they had a piece of the body they could have used.I'm presently entertaining the possibility that Sigdi gave up the diamonds to resurrect Tenrin (who died with honor) so the priests of Thor could resurrect someone else (who didn't)...which could also account for why it was considered a "donation". Thankfully, the possibility enjoys card games....


Are they? I'm afraid I've known too many campaigns where player characters only form bonds with one another, as they've heard one too many stories of NPC love interests and families dying the moment they're out of sight. It's not fair, but I understand why some people become afraid to take that chance.Hilgya was free to not go on a revenge quest that involved going straight into a temple in an attempt to murder a high-level spellcaster there. Unlike a PC in a campaign, there's no central game conceit that Hilgya needs to be going on adventures; she could have kept Kudzu in sight and out of harm's way, by not going into harm's way.

[Keltest]

Eh, I'm not saying all DMs track arrows. You, however, are saying all DMs don't track arrows (and material components, and hundreds of feet of rope or poles, and whatever else y'all don't track), and that's how the universe is built. If y'all play like that and enjoy it, more power to you. But if you're going to make claims about the comic based on your houserules, don't be surprised if you're called on it.

So hey, remember that comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0904.html) that specifically talked about how Haley didn't really manage her arrows? Because I do.

*yes, im well aware she keeps more arrows in her bags of holding, but since taking an item out of one that is filled more than a normal bag is a full action, she's obviously not just pulling them out of there as needed.

[Xel]

I just realized Durkula's move here is especially cruel given that he knows about Roy's baby brother dying, and given that he taunted Roy with that in their previous fight. Before, that taunt made Roy's sword ignite, now the threat to a child makes his sword fizzle as he loses focus / the will to fight.

Hmm. This is the one idea I’ve seen that actually concerns me. I’ve been having some trouble buying that the Order is in serious trouble, because Roy hasn’t hulked out yet — he’s effectively got at least one “full restoration & healing” that he should be able to use. That should be enough to do for Ponchella and the other cleric. Even the Kudzu-shield shouldn’t be impassable, since if Roy fails, the world ends and Kudzu dies anyway. I could see it being a difficult decision, some serious heart-wrenching, and years of self-flagellation/atonement afterwards, but I’d think Roy could make that choice.

But this thought is interesting. Having to agonize over the choice may deny him his ability to use the Weapon of Legacy powers. No confidence/certainty in the action, so it would’t work. Hmm.

[Jasdoif]

I could see it being a difficult decision, some serious heart-wrenching, and years of self-flagellation/atonement afterwards, but I’d think Roy could make that choice.Well....I'm pretty sure Hilgya's not the forgiving type, and this was already a murder quest for her.

[Kish]

A hundred gold says Roy is not going to throw his sword through Kudzu.

[Aquillion]

The characters of the OotS are notoriously poorly built. Look at Roy, for example: he has not properly dump-statted his Int score, and he has skill points invested in non-combat skills that don't apply to mobility. I know a couple of players who could munchkin the OotS characters for upwards of 50% increase in combat effectiveness.While this is true, it simply isn't possible to build a Cleric with a bad Will Save while still being capable of casting spells. Not only do they get a strong will save simply by gaining levels, they also require Wisdom to cast spells, which also increases their Will save. Even if she was intentionally building her character as badly as possible, the simple fact that she's at least capable of casting spells shows that she must have a fairly high Will save (even if Roy had 18 Wisdom, for instance, and even if she had the bare minimum necessary to cast her spells, her Will save would still be significantly higher than his.)

I mean, I know, I know, it's based on what makes a good story, and the way the comic has portrayed someone as "strong-willed" is more important than mechanics. And if we really care about mechanics, maybe she just rolled two 1s.

But I couldn't resist pointing this out. You simply can't build a Cleric with a low will save who is still capable of casting high-level spells (and she clearly is.) It's not a matter of the characters not being optimized, it's just flatly impossible, since she's unable to make Wisdom her dump stat while still being a spellcaster. She could have a slightly-lower will save than a really optimized cleric, sure, but going by mechanics her will save almost has to be significantly higher than Roy's.

[AstralFire]

but going by mechanics her will save almost has to be significantly higher than Roy's.


At this point Roy is basically a modern, post-3E paladin whose smiting comes from his sword rather than through his sword, and I wouldn't be surprised if it carries with it will save protections.

Although tbh, despite Roy being the main character I think he's probably the least interesting member of the cast and I admit to being a bit disappointed that it's just him and Durkon basically, with Vaarsuvius a background figure. It wouldn't kill anyone to have Elan making use of his Will save for once and I don't think his Wis is the complete pits, unlike his Int.

[Jasdoif]

At this point Roy is basically a modern, post-3E paladin whose smiting comes from his sword rather than through his sword, and I wouldn't be surprised if it carries with it will save protections.I suspect Roy and Vaarsuvius still have active mind blanks, myself.

[Peelee]

So hey, remember that comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0904.html) that specifically talked about how Haley didn't really manage her arrows? Because I do.
So hey, remember how the author specifically said "assume the rules are followed until they aren't?" Because I do.


5.) As far as this thread goes, or any other attempt to align the events of the comic with D&D, my suggestion is to treat the comic as if it is based on "OOTS RPG," a hypothetical game that is exactly like D&D in every way—except for those ways that the comic shows that it isn't. Everything is D&D until proven otherwise. Because that's sort of how I write it; I use the D&D rules when they fit into the story (and I remember them), and break them when they don't. Thus, you can still extrapolate D&D stats of the characters unless I show something that simply defies the game as written—like Roy casting a fireball. And you can still make predictions about what might happen in the future as if it were all going to unfold according to the D&D rules, as long as you understand that hey, maybe I might fudge that one. And then don't complain if I do.
I've never argued arrows aren't tracked in the strip. I took issue with "X isn't tracked in the strip because they nobody tracks them in games, based on my personal experience." I have yet to see a convincing argument otherwise. Such as a strip that shows it's not being followed.

ETA: I'll cop to the post you replied to not being well-written on this point.

[Kish]

At this point Roy is basically a modern, post-3E paladin
Are you using four words to say "5E" with less clarity for a reason?

[Grey Watcher]

Like a lot of people, my money is on the sound of Kudzu crying giving Hilgya a new saving throw with a massive circumstance bonus. And once that happens, Greg's within arms reach of a Cleric to whom he's just given a SECOND reason to want to brutally murder him.

I'm more caught up in suspense over Durkon's backstory! My money (heh) is on her being strong-armed (heh) into forgoing a True Resurrection for the late Tenrin Thundershield, which the church declared to be a donation-in-kind.

[Draconi Redfir]

I seriously doubt it. Realistically, it makes less than no sense; dramatically, it's too obvious to be a twist.

Clearly the Troll in the story is Durkon's father, and his mother "donated" all that gold in exchange for having an infant Durkon polymorfed into a dwarf.

[Knaight]

So hey, remember that comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0904.html) that specifically talked about how Haley didn't really manage her arrows? Because I do.

It doesn't say that. It says that where the arrows are kept is glossed over (Haley isn't drawn with a quiver), which in this case fits pretty neatly with the vagueness of something being kept in an inventory. It doesn't say that how many there are aren't kept track of.

[ti'esar]

Thinking about this, if I was Roy, I'd be more focused on taking out Ponchula (and the last generic dwarf cleric vampire) then on whittling down Not-Durkon's health or concentration anyway.

[blunk]

the rapidly shrinking orderCheck out Belkar's size in the first panel. If anything, the Order is growing.

[AstralFire]

Are you using four words to say "5E" with less clarity for a reason?

The paladin has been a supernatural combatant for a long time, but at the beginning of 3E, the Paladin showed its clear roots as a durable anti-magic warrior with a handful of active special skills, like the introduction of Smite Evil. This is also how paladins in OotS are typically shown. Beginning with 3.5 we really saw this get more aggressive. A bigger variety of more ambitious paladin spells, divine power feats, and alternate takes on the Holy Warrior in PrCs, ACFs, and new base classes.

When Pathfinder and 4E both launched, the way that paladins were narratively described was completely different from 3E -- every fight they're expected to use showy holy powers. 5E is just the latest iteration of that and not unique on that front. Concurrently I really began to notice more and more "holy warriors" in other media that use a lot of overt powers but are distinguished from clerics and priests.

So no, I didn't say '5E with less clarity'. I said a post-3E paladin.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Neither I, nor the comic, have to abide by your headcanons. You are demanding that a character that, by the look of it, only has a few in-comic days to exist to behave in a way that runs directly againstwhat he his trying to achieve. That is not, to me, a reasonnable standard of evidence to ask for.

Irrelevant.

That's not what I said.

Lurkon is the same as Durkon was on his worst day, that means the same as Durkon with the emphasis shifted from the nobler parts of his personnality to the vilest.

Durkon on his worst day was still a follower of thor, and didn't blame him, nor disliked him, just the idiots who threw him out. undurkon on his birth was a follower of hel.

I think it was just him being evil taunting the good guy, in retrospect.

[FriendComputer]

Quite the dramatic turn of events.

Kudzos cries should definitely grant a new save. Maybe with bonuses. Kudzo is reacting to a stranger grabbing him and...something doesn't feel right. That one will be a fear / alarm / panic cry that will rock Hilgya.

I'm with the crowd that the 25k gp was spent to save Durkon, over his pa. Losing your arm and your loving husband will make you very miserable... and there is no greater duty than to that of your childs well being.

Which is how the memories are very relevant, imho. A parent will sacrifice everything for their kid. That might be snapping from a mind control spell, or somehow finding the power to temporarily daze an undead jerk that's infesting your corpse.

[Aquillion]

It wouldn't kill anyone to have Elan making use of his Will save for once and I don't think his Wis is the complete pits, unlike his Int.We know that Elan doesn't even have a smidgen (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0080.html) of Wisdom. And it's very likely Dashing Swordsman has a poor Will save, too (at least, all the homebrew (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Dashing_Swordsman_(3.5e_Prestige_Class)) versions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?29882-The-Dashing-Swordsman-PrC) of it do. And while that's not by Giant, the second one is by the 3e Exalted lead developer! So it's sort-of official in some universe!)

While Elan's Bard levels would keep him from being rock bottom, his Will save could still be very low.

[AstralFire]

We know that Elan doesn't even have a smidgen (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0080.html) of Wisdom.

I'll say that I've never found that quote terribly convincing (comic 80, and Roy's being a jerk). Elan is remarkably good at coming up with insights into people and has a strong sense of will. I'd be surprised if his Wis was worse than a -1 penalty on average despite the poor common sense, which is more than low enough to qualify for 'can't cast as a cleric'. If you have most of your levels in Bard and you're somewhere in the teens with a -1 wis penalty, you still should be around on par with even a very wise fighter of the same level.

The larger point, however, is that I just don't find Roy's highlighting in this plot to be interesting enough (as of yet) to merit basically everyone else being reduced to a background, and there's plausible enough reasons for others to not be disabled. I am not especially interested in a long debate to narrow down exact ability scores.

[Akari Itagami]

Hey btw is he not bending the rules when asking to handover the baby? (Sorta like Suggestion can't make a person killing his ownself) has this been mentioned somewhere in the thread?

[AstralFire]

Hey btw is he not bending the rules when asking to handover the baby? (Sorta like Suggestion can't make a person killing his ownself) has this been mentioned somewhere in the thread?

There have been a few opinions about that on this thread, but the general mood is that either without overtly threatening the baby, it's not strong enough against Hilgya's nature, or she did get a new chance to save and failed again. In general, dominate is a really strong spell series, and much stronger than suggestion.

[Mad Humanist]

I'll say that I've never found that quote terribly convincing (comic 80, and Roy's being a jerk). Elan is remarkably good at coming up with insights into people and has a strong sense of will.

Given that Elan's next line is:


Nah, that's just what they WANT you to believe. It's all a bug conspiracy you know.

I imagine in our world Elan would be a wearing a tin-foil hat. His "bardic knowledge" would consist of all the stupidest conspiracy theories you heard all mashed into one. Including several he had made up all by himself. However he'd actually be fun to listen to.

[Deathhappens]

I thought Durkula was Lawful Evil and agreed to let Durkon's family live. This... does not seem to be him upholding his end of that bargain.

The letter of the law over the spirit is pretty much the definition of Lawful Evil: Technically, he's just giving Kudzu a hug. YOU would be the one stabbing him if you threw your sword at him, you monster.

[tigerusthegreat]

25k gp is the material cost of True Resurrection. Assuming the Church of Thor did her a favor and waived the casting cost, my personal bet is that Durkon was killed as a baby because Sigdi brought him on an adventure (like Kudzu). This is the same adventure where she lost her arm. She donated all her money to the church to have him True Resurrected and the Church waived the fee in exchange for her son becoming a servant of Thor.

She never regenerated her arm because of the shame she felt endangering her son.

She never told him because of her shame and she didn't want him to know about his obligations.

She couldn't use Resurrection or Raise Dead because as a baby he would not have survived (maybe? My personal rule would be that a baby wouldn't survive the loss of 2 Con and is level 0).

[KorvinStarmast]

But no player I’ve ever played with has ever run out of arrows, and I can’t imaine a DM that has actually ever tracked arrows for a player, like you are claiming that DMs do. IN AD&D 1e we tracked them with considerable care. Most of us made little 2x5 grids of boxes, and used an X out method to track arrows expended. (With six to eight players at a time, there was lots of time to make little marks to indicate ammo expenditures. Same with silver tipped arrows, and silver bullets for slings). Not sure what the aversion to tracking arrows is in the setting you describe. We track spells with little boxes as well. Pencils are handy that way. So is using clear shelf paper to cover that box so that the erase/mark doesn't tear up the paper.

I carried that habit forward ....

[Fyraltari]

Durkon on his worst day was still a follower of thor, and didn't blame him, nor disliked him, just the idiots who threw him out. undurkon on his birth was a follower of hel.

I think it was just him being evil taunting the good guy, in retrospect.
To be clear, I am not saying tha Durkon* is a second Durkon the way, say the Metacrisis Doctor was a second 10th Doctor. I am saying he is a different person, with the same personnality (and memories more or less) but with a greter emphasis on the darker parts because of how the process works. Durkon was religious, so Darkon is religious but where Durkon's faith was one of service and devotion, Darkon's seems to be more of mutual benefit and servitude. Thor is a fitting god for the former and Hel for the latter. Besides Yhor wouldn't grant Jerkon spells, anyway.

I think what you mean is we have "evidence". Yes, what Greg says is evidence.
If you say so.


My answer is: The same reason I do not believe, say, Tarquin when he claims his bloodbaths of conquest are saving lives in the big picture. While such a claim is within the realm of the plausible, the speaker here (1) could easily not know the truth of the claim, (2) probably does not care about the truth of the claim, in terms of being willing to spend effort to find out, (3) probably does not care about the truth of the claim, in terms of being willing to spend resources to make it true if it turns out to probably not be, and (4) seems to be the kind of person who would enjoy making the claim regardless of the statuses of #1 and #2 and #3.

Greg fits the bill, too. He could easily not know. He may well not care whether it is true. Even if he happened to know it was not true would he refrain from employing an effective psychological weapon against Durkon for the sake of not lying?

Greg is not a convincing witness here.

My point is not wether Greg can be trusted but wether the comic can be trusted. This is the only explanation we have gotten so far on vampirism. We could get another one later but I'm not seeing how. It fits with what we have seen in-comic and more importantly it fits about the theme of this particular book (Durkon is being faced with the truths he had been denied/he pretended were not there for years. And he happens to be litterally facing his own demons. That doesn't work nearly as well if the spirit is completely unrelated and just rolepkaying as Durkon's dark side or whatever).


Durkon was self-serving when he was bodily chucked out of his home? He was angry, for very good reasons. What does angry have to do with self-serving?
Wether or not he had good reasons is irrelevant to wether or not he was being self serving at the moment. He wasn't angry on behalf of anybody but himself there, he wished the entire dwarven race harm so that he would feel better.

This kind of anger is entirely self serving. And that's okay. Being self-serving does not equal being evil anymore than being selfless equals being good. Durkon had avery right to be angry (but not to act on it like the Low Priest of Hel does) and Whiskers-in-the-Dark has a point about Durkon being a spectator in his own life before being made one (he isn't in the right but he has a point).

[brian 333]

I agree with Fyraltari. While the characters in the story should not believe anything Durkula says, not all liars always lie.

Narratively it makes no sense for the author to intentionally misrepresent the mechanics of his universe. It would be an interesting approach to create a false picture in the readers' minds which is later explained and corrected, but that, in my mind, risks the whole, "Its a dream," issue in which readers feel cheated.

After fifteen years of OotS, Rich has yet to leave me feeling cheated.