On Ritual Spell Casting Times - mechanically well-balanced, but...believable?

[Segev]

I don't mean, "Can you believe it would really take 10 extra minutes?"

I mean, for the various ritual spells that we tend to assume we'd cast whenever we want in-game, if we weren't playing a game but actually had to sit through the 10 minutes of our party member chanting and gesticulating and laying out ritual ingredients, would we really be that patient? Would we, as casters ourselves, really be willing to drop everything and spend 10 minutes casting a spell for 1 minute of magic detection, before we have to stop and cast it again?

I mean, when the other players and DM are willing to or even assuming that I just have the spell and can wait 10 min., I will, but I keep feeling a little munchkinly, and asking myself, "If I were really my character, and not sitting beyond the fourth wall with the ability to fast forward through those ten minutes, would I really be so willing to cast these spells?"

This is especially true for things like phantom steed, unseen servant, and Tenser's floating disk, each of which you're going to probably need all day and want more or less without interruption. Stopping every 50 minutes to spend 10 minutes recasting it (or, worse, casting it constantly to keep the party on an ever-rotating pack of six phantom steeds) would be something that would seem likely only in serious duress, and a major irritant.

What are others' experiences with rituals? How do you use them or see them used? Does it seem like realistic behavior to you?

[sophontteks]

You probably spend more then 10 minutes per hour on your cellphone. Without a cell you have time to cast a ritual, easily, without interupting anything.

On paper there seems to be a big issue with breaks. But people are not working 100% of the time. We take breaks frequently to pee, eat, smell flowers, scratch ourselves, and just generally wasting time.

[Unoriginal]

Ritual casting takes time, but doesn't cost the ressource you'd normally use.


Would you wait 10 minutes for a free meal rather than spend $20 for one you're given instantly? It depends of how much money and how much time you have.

Same with spell slots and time for ritual casting.


Heck, you might be *annoyed* you have to stop every so and so to get Detect Magic or Phantom Steed or whichever spell, but is it really worth spending those spell slots over such a minor issue?


So yes, I'd say it's more than believable, and a welcome restriction to how and when use ritual casting. Rituals without their restrictions would become ridiculous quick.

[ciarannihill]

I had always had the head-canon that Ritual casting was about gathering ambient magic in the air and such to cast spells in lieu of casting via one's own internal magic, so the 10 minutes was sort of spent meditating and gathering that ambient magic to use as a resource, then the actual casting time is as usual, that part doesn't change it's just the source of the magical energy used to power the spell is different and that connection has to be produced.

Like I said it's my head-canon for it, but I feel like it sort of works narratively.

[Willie the Duck]

This is especially true for things like phantom steed, unseen servant, and Tenser's floating disk, each of which you're going to probably need all day and want more or less without interruption. Stopping every 50 minutes to spend 10 minutes recasting it (or, worse, casting it constantly to keep the party on an ever-rotating pack of six phantom steeds) would be something that would seem likely only in serious duress, and a major irritant.

I think if the game tracked things like discomfort, annoyance, frustration, maybe even the errors incurred because of these factors; there would be some significant penalties to this (so, not a game with bounded accuracy, but more of an OSR-like 'track every encumbrance' model). I think, reasonably, characters if-they-were-actual-people who had to put up with an adventure of phantom steed-ing their way across a continent would find a way the next adventure to get actual mounts and the like (perhaps even if the net travel time was actually slower, perhaps because the animals had to graze or the like).

As a player, I think it depends on whether you do this for other things with your characters. After a month of adventuring and eating hard-tack rations or goodberries and sleeping on bedrolls, do you have them get back to town and splurge on a huge fresh cooked meal, a hot bath, and sleeping on a proper bed? If you do, than maybe also have your character consider a situation like this as last-resort-only.

On the other hand, not even medieval times but the age of sail (and later)--people got on boats as passangers and spent weeks or months crammed by the dozen into dark stearage holds with virtually nothing to do. People used locomotives and early automobiles with a 1/6th downtime for and didn't bat an eye. If you were a noble and hired your peasants to come help build a castle wall or something, the first guy to arrive to do so might have to wait (because communication and travel were slow and inefficient) days before there were enough people around to actually do much of the work. It's entirely possible that 'you get a horse that doesn't get tired, requires no oats, and you don't have to manage/worry about. However, every hour or so you have to get off and stand around waiting for 10 minute' would sound like a bargain and a half to someone in a mediev-o-magical setting.

[SLOTHRPG95]

You probably spend more then 10 minutes per hour on your cellphone. Without a cell you have time to cast a ritual, easily, without interupting anything.

On paper there seems to be a big issue with breaks. But people are not working 100% of the time. We take breaks frequently to pee, eat, smell flowers, scratch ourselves, and just generally wasting time.

I'm not sure it's that simple. Casting a ritual is not the same thing as taking a break. In fact, it is a form of work. Also, even assuming arguendo that the average individual spends 10 minutes an hour on their cell phone, that doesn't say anything about the distribution of those ten minutes. There's nothing saying it's ten contiguous minutes, which ritual casting requires.

[Segev]

I absolutely consider it a bargain to save a spell slot by spending 10 minutes. That's not really my question.

My question is, assuming you, in real life, had ritual access to these spells. Would you use them at every opportunity, stopping for 10 minutes to go through the ritual motions? Or would you more likely say, "Not right now. I don't really need to spend 10 minutes setting this up right now," and maybe not keep it going?

Would you actually use tenser's floating disk, or would you rarely do so because you either have more immediate means of carrying things, or don't want to have to wait ten more minutes to be ready to go, then stop every 45 or so minutes to recast it?


Now, admittedly, nothing in the rules prevents you from casting a ritual while walking. You can walk and even (weirdly enough) talk, as long as you don't cast any spells or do anything that counts as an action. (Not sure on bonus actions.)

[Eragon123]

I had always had the head-canon that Ritual casting was about gathering ambient magic in the air and such to cast spells in lieu of casting via one's own internal magic, so the 10 minutes was sort of spent meditating and gathering that ambient magic to use as a resource, then the actual casting time is as usual, that part doesn't change it's just the source of the magical energy used to power the spell is different and that connection has to be produced.

Like I said it's my head-canon for it, but I feel like it sort of works narratively.

I really like this explanation and will be using it myself in my campaigns.

[Mellack]

I absolutely consider it a bargain to save a spell slot by spending 10 minutes. That's not really my question.

My question is, assuming you, in real life, had ritual access to these spells. Would you use them at every opportunity, stopping for 10 minutes to go through the ritual motions? Or would you more likely say, "Not right now. I don't really need to spend 10 minutes setting this up right now," and maybe not keep it going?

Would you actually use tenser's floating disk, or would you rarely do so because you either have more immediate means of carrying things, or don't want to have to wait ten more minutes to be ready to go, then stop every 45 or so minutes to recast it?


Now, admittedly, nothing in the rules prevents you from casting a ritual while walking. You can walk and even (weirdly enough) talk, as long as you don't cast any spells or do anything that counts as an action. (Not sure on bonus actions.)

It would depend entirely on how much I was able to use the spell cast. I am not going to spend 10 minutes every hour for Tenser's Disk just in case I might need it. But if I am hauling around bags of concrete all day today, you bet your sweet tookas I will want that ritual going. If I have a horse available, I might not bother with a Phantom Steed, but if the other choice is walking, it is well worth it.

[Unoriginal]

I absolutely consider it a bargain to save a spell slot by spending 10 minutes. That's not really my question.

My question is, assuming you, in real life, had ritual access to these spells. Would you use them at every opportunity, stopping for 10 minutes to go through the ritual motions? Or would you more likely say, "Not right now. I don't really need to spend 10 minutes setting this up right now," and maybe not keep it going?

Would you actually use tenser's floating disk, or would you rarely do so because you either have more immediate means of carrying things, or don't want to have to wait ten more minutes to be ready to go, then stop every 45 or so minutes to recast it?


Now, admittedly, nothing in the rules prevents you from casting a ritual while walking. You can walk and even (weirdly enough) talk, as long as you don't cast any spells or do anything that counts as an action. (Not sure on bonus actions.)

I would do it if I saw the benefits over a mundane solution. It'd be niche, maybe, but sometime useful.

Phantom Steed would certainly be worth it, for exemple. Tenser's Floating Disk might be useful once in a while.

I think that's pretty much the point of the feature.

[JeffreyGator]

Let's consider just a few of these versus the mundane alternatives.

Unseen servant - 10 minutes ritual versus 1 hour doing chores like cleaning my house. 10 < 6 every time.

Leomunds hut versus setting up a tent.

Druid UA Starter spell versus setting up camp.

Tenser's disk versus pushing a full wheelbarrow of stuff (including uphill!).

10 minute identify vs 1 hour short rest that only works to ID.

so the lazy wizard is casting rituals versus working all the time.

The super-lazy non-adventuring wizard is probably using slots some of the time instead.

[ciarannihill]

I really like this explanation and will be using it myself in my campaigns.

Thanks! I had put that together in part as a way to explain why Sorcerers and Warlocks don't get Ritual Casting by default -- Sorcerers use magic instinctively, so don't really have a concept of using external magic to use it and Warlocks get magic from their patron, meaning they have no way of drawing magic from other sources.

Meanwhile other classes have built their magic up over time through prayer, devotion, scholarship, etc. They understand it on a more tangible level in that way and can therefore use ambient magic to cast ritual spells.

Once again though, just my headcanon.



With regard to willingness to sit through ritual spells:
I feel like if I'm in a dungeon crawl with party members and one of them says "Hey guys, let's take a 10 minute breather so I can channel magic for this spell. I don't want to use up my magic when unneeded and we have a safe moment to do it." I get the feeling I'd be super okay with taking that breather. Maybe the rest of the party would be going over plans or reflecting on previous encounters, doing maintenance on gear, etc.

[Segev]

Hm, bringing in the notion of short rests, I could see a wizard or similar ritual caster asking for 70-minute breaks instead of 60-minute breaks, and he just takes the extra 10 minutes to cast an hour-duration ritual spell so it's on hand for at least the next hour of adventuring.

Probably just adds an extra 10 minutes to every room explored, in the case of detect magic.

[Lord Vukodlak]

I absolutely consider it a bargain to save a spell slot by spending 10 minutes. That's not really my question.

My question is, assuming you, in real life, had ritual access to these spells. Would you use them at every opportunity, stopping for 10 minutes to go through the ritual motions? Or would you more likely say, "Not right now. I don't really need to spend 10 minutes setting this up right now," and maybe not keep it going?

Would you actually use tenser's floating disk, or would you rarely do so because you either have more immediate means of carrying things, or don't want to have to wait ten more minutes to be ready to go, then stop every 45 or so minutes to recast it?

In RL I would not feel under constant pressure of attack and worry about spells resource management.
As a wizard to cast floating disk or unseen servant normally I have to have them prepared and use a spell slot. To cast as a ritual I need only time and the ritual need only be in my book.

[Theodoxus]

You probably spend more then 10 minutes per hour on your cellphone. Without a cell you have time to cast a ritual, easily, without interupting anything.

On paper there seems to be a big issue with breaks. But people are not working 100% of the time. We take breaks frequently to pee, eat, smell flowers, scratch ourselves, and just generally wasting time.


I'm not sure it's that simple. Casting a ritual is not the same thing as taking a break. In fact, it is a form of work. Also, even assuming arguendo that the average individual spends 10 minutes an hour on their cell phone, that doesn't say anything about the distribution of those ten minutes. There's nothing saying it's ten contiguous minutes, which ritual casting requires.

I know you were answering what sophontteks actually wrote - but I think it's a better answer to Segev's actual question, if instead of looking at it from the casters POV, but at the rest of the (bored) party's.

If I'm traveling somewhere, and someone needs a 10 min poop break (maybe alongside a 3 minute gas fill up break), I'm ok hanging out, browsing my phone or picking through knicknacks in the gas station... If that poop break also had the added benefit of detecting magic or identifying an item or setting up camp too? Bonus!

Now, when I first read through the magic system of 5th ed, back in 2014, Rituals seemed really cool. A newish mechanic that expanded casting options. Though my first takeaway was that there were a lot of spells that deserved (IMO) to be Ritual tagged, that weren't. Most were just too high level - since there's an artificial (again, IMO) cap of 6th level on them, so things like Teleport and derivitatives can't be Ritualized... But there's still quite a few spells that could be added to the Ritual portfolio (legitimately, (IMO) all spells could be. Nothing like ritual casting fireball to ambush the King's Men with the strong box!)

But more so, the concept of "free" spells, using Time instead of Slots advances an idea that I think has been in the wings of D&D since the advent of CRPGs (specifically persistent games, like EverQuest, WoW, etc): removal of most resource tracking mechanics.

If more emphasis were used in the ruleset to deal with hit point mitigation - if HP were the sole defining mechanic that affected performance, then things like spells and arrows and other "tracked" resources could be modified in such a way that it didn't really matter.

Sure, there's purists out there that love the minutia of tracked everything. But I don't think I've played (or honestly, run) a game where the DM gave a rats about how many arrows you have.

Heck, as a DM, I don't track any player resources. If a monk stunning strikes 3 things and flurries 3 times in a single combat, and is only 5th level? I'm not counting each ki point. If it's super obvious "wait, you've flurried 3 times, took Patient Defense twice and now you're stunning striking 3 times? You're 6th level dude, you don't have that many Ki... oh, and there was the combat a while back where you Step of the Wind twice to get to the top of a tower... and the party hasn't rested since..." yeah, I'll call that - but using a couple Ki here or there? That's on the player.

Same thing with spell slots. At 1st level, sure, I know when you've spent your two spells for the day. By 6th? I'm not tracking 10 spell slots for you. By 15th? Freely cast away (again, as long as it's not 5 3rd level fireballs or something equally obvious).

It'd be a fairly different animal (one could argue "no longer D&D") but I'd be happy with a resourceless game across the board. Fully healed after combat; can cast any spell any number of times (probably would restrict not being able to use the same spell in a number of rounds equal to it's level - so, Fireball could be cast every 4th round)...

Wow, this went way off topic... sorry...

[mgshamster]

Speaking as someone who's had to live through wait times like this in the field, for whatever reason - you quickly get used to it. Especially if it provides some sort of benefit. But even if it is just waiting, well, that's an extra ten minutes to sit and relax, or to look at your surroundings, or read a few more pages of a novel, or chit chat with the guy next to you, or something else.

Soldiers have to do this all the time - sitting around waiting for an officer or an NCO to make a call, or just waiting for someone to finish something up, or just waiting for formation to start, or waiting for something to happen.... Very common.

When you're out in the field, ten minutes is nothing.

And even more especially so for a culture that doesn't track time as much as we do in our modern society. When clocks don't exist in the average person's life, ten minute waits really become nothing.

[sophontteks]

I'm not sure it's that simple. Casting a ritual is not the same thing as taking a break. In fact, it is a form of work. Also, even assuming arguendo that the average individual spends 10 minutes an hour on their cell phone, that doesn't say anything about the distribution of those ten minutes. There's nothing saying it's ten contiguous minutes, which ritual casting requires.

It was a simplification. Its not a perfect example at all. Your probably right that its not even a good example.:smallbiggrin:
But the OP was concerned that the players would need to stop and tap their toes every hour waiting, when in all likelyhood there are a million less useful reasons for the party to be stopping at least 10 minutes every hour, unless they are specifically under duress.

The caster doesn't need to spend that time resting, and in all likely hood he has more then 10 minutes time per hour with a large group. I'd also argue that rituals can't be very strenuous given that they have no drain on resources.

[OvisCaedo]

I feel like the threshhold for minor annoyances must be set pretty high for a group of people in constant life or death situations or adventures of significant importance. No, I don't CARE if that room might have a deadly magical trap that will kill me, I don't want to wait ten minutes!

...Probably a short career. Of course, checking EVERYTHING constantly would probably end up causing its own practical problems.

[JoeJ]

I'd also argue that rituals can't be very strenuous given that they have no drain on resources.

Lifting heavy weights doesn't cause any drain on resources either.

[JeenLeen]

I feel like the threshhold for minor annoyances must be set pretty high for a group of people in constant life or death situations or adventures of significant importance. No, I don't CARE if that room might have a deadly magical trap that will kill me, I don't want to wait ten minutes!

...Probably a short career. Of course, checking EVERYTHING constantly would probably end up causing its own practical problems.

This is my opinion as well. And also my opinion on casting cantrips like Guidance before doing something.

if it were day-to-day activity like hanging out, it'd be annoying. If it were traveling for hours, maybe annoying for stuff like Detect Magic, but I can see it if there's a need (need Phantom Steed for speed or just to rest feet, need Tenser's Disc to carry stuff or because it's easier than us carrying it). If I'm in a potential life-or-death situation, I want that mage checking for traps just as much as I want our trap specialist taking his time searching for traps.

Heck, being an adventurer, I'd probably refuse to eat or drink anything not checked with Detect Poison or Purify Food & Drink. Too many stories of folk getting poisoned by something wrong in the food.

This is excepting the instance when we are in urgent life-or-death situations, where those 10 minutes might matter. But, in general, yeah, take the time. Be responsible and check.

[Unoriginal]

That being said, staying 10 mins in an active dungeon's room can cause troubles if there is patrols. You can only kill so many before they raise the alarm on principle.

[Tanarii]

Wandering monster checks are your friend. For just about all problems with time management, and many related to believability, from resource management & resting, to if the characters are willing to spend a long time doing something like searching a room or casting a ritual or taking ten times as long to get an automatic success.

About the only thing it won't help with making more believable is if you're making very frequent and high probability wandmon checks in a supposed deserted area. :smallamused:

Edit: also ritual casting still only requires whatever V, S and m components the spell normal requires. Heck, you can even walk around while doing it!

[mephnick]

Wandering monster checks are your friend.

But encounters that aren't intimately crafted story set pieces aren't any fun! What kind of ****ty DM actually uses random encounters?!

[BreaktheStatue]

Speaking as someone who's had to live through wait times like this in the field, for whatever reason - you quickly get used to it. Especially if it provides some sort of benefit. But even if it is just waiting, well, that's an extra ten minutes to sit and relax, or to look at your surroundings, or read a few more pages of a novel, or chit chat with the guy next to you, or something else.

Soldiers have to do this all the time - sitting around waiting for an officer or an NCO to make a call, or just waiting for someone to finish something up, or just waiting for formation to start, or waiting for something to happen.... Very common.

When you're out in the field, ten minutes is nothing.

And even more especially so for a culture that doesn't track time as much as we do in our modern society. When clocks don't exist in the average person's life, ten minute waits really become nothing.

Second this. I did 15-hour patrols through Baghdad - probably the closest I'll ever get to anything like an "adventuring day" - and probably 1/3 of that, at least, was spent waiting for stuff. A big part of that waiting is due to a necessary overabundance of caution; we almost always chose the risk averse choice, because even though it was boring and time-consuming, it was better than potentially getting killed. Wait for EOD, wait for intel, wait for air support, wait for route clearance, etc. There's a reason so many soldiers smoke; it's just as much out of boredom as it is stress.

If you have a relatively cost-free way to instantly duplicate the effect of the ritual, sure, I'd use it, but 10 minutes is not that long.

[Bahamut7]

I think I get the subtle point here of that does it make sense for every ritual spell to take the same amount of time? If I am using a ritual to cast Alarm over one window, should it really take 10 minutes? Or how about Locate object? Should Locate object vary depending on the distance of the object?

The thing is, a lot of 5e is just 4e reworded and all the rituals in 4e took 10 minutes to perform. I played an Artificer in 4e and had access to Ritual Casting and felt that at times 10 minutes seemed a bit much for some of the spells.

I think honestly, the designers went with 10 minutes for an already tested standard. IF you are like me and feel some spells should take less or more time to be a ritual, than I would discuss with the DM to make it more fluid and/or realistic.

[MaxWilson]

I don't mean, "Can you believe it would really take 10 extra minutes?"

I mean, for the various ritual spells that we tend to assume we'd cast whenever we want in-game, if we weren't playing a game but actually had to sit through the 10 minutes of our party member chanting and gesticulating and laying out ritual ingredients, would we really be that patient? Would we, as casters ourselves, really be willing to drop everything and spend 10 minutes casting a spell for 1 minute of magic detection, before we have to stop and cast it again?

I mean, when the other players and DM are willing to or even assuming that I just have the spell and can wait 10 min., I will, but I keep feeling a little munchkinly, and asking myself, "If I were really my character, and not sitting beyond the fourth wall with the ability to fast forward through those ten minutes, would I really be so willing to cast these spells?"

This is especially true for things like phantom steed, unseen servant, and Tenser's floating disk, each of which you're going to probably need all day and want more or less without interruption. Stopping every 50 minutes to spend 10 minutes recasting it (or, worse, casting it constantly to keep the party on an ever-rotating pack of six phantom steeds) would be something that would seem likely only in serious duress, and a major irritant.

What are others' experiences with rituals? How do you use them or see them used? Does it seem like realistic behavior to you?

IME this exactly why rituals tend not to get used a lot.

[Tetrasodium]

you don't need to make everyone wait to cast a ritual spell. Lets say you as a party just killed a bunch of goblins. Well someone wants to search the bodies & everyone wants to clean off the blood, ritually casting detect magic or something might be doable during a good portion of that searching & such.

[Anonymouswizard]

I think I get the subtle point here of that does it make sense for every ritual spell to take the same amount of time? If I am using a ritual to cast Alarm over one window, should it really take 10 minutes? Or how about Locate object? Should Locate object vary depending on the distance of the object?

The thing is, a lot of 5e is just 4e reworded and all the rituals in 4e took 10 minutes to perform. I played an Artificer in 4e and had access to Ritual Casting and felt that at times 10 minutes seemed a bit much for some of the spells.

I think honestly, the designers went with 10 minutes for an already tested standard. IF you are like me and feel some spells should take less or more time to be a ritual, than I would discuss with the DM to make it more fluid and/or realistic.

I honestly think that 4e had it better. In 4e rituals were a different kind of magic, everybody drew from the same list no matter what source they got it from and it works the same for everybody, who still has their normal magic. I actually have an idea for a 4e setting where ritual magic is the only 'learned' magic, no Wizard class, if you have fast access magic it's either something you get from somebody else (Divine powers, Primal powers, Warlocks), or something you were born with (Sorcerers). Unsure where psionics or Bards come into that (Artificers can fit in slightly more easily), I no longer have my 4e books and am unlikely to be able to get them back (most likely chucked, although one of my siblings might have been able to save them). So yeah, that'll never happen.

But in 5e ritual magic is just a small selection of magic that can also be cast 'normally'. This is something I really don't like, as it suddenly makes it feel like rituals are an afterthought.

I like ritual based characters. I've played one in another system, I had a list of about eight very specific affects which took a varying amount of time and very different actions and about half of them came up over the course of the game (although I didn't always manage to use them, because it took a while to see that minor rituals could be cast for free). That game also sent us up against quite a few nasty mages who could just make up spells within their theme (we'd had been able to use this, but I went for rituals and our other mage made devices), my ritualist skill doubled up as a way to identify magical effects (at the cost of my character having no real knowledge of stage magic, actually turned out to be much more important than my actual rituals). But yeah, rituals in that took a skill check and however long it took to perform their ritual actions (anything from a few seconds to days, one specifically requires you to starve yourself for seventy two hours unless you're a minor). The rituals are a very flavourful part of the world, far more than the 'standard utility magic' D&D uses.

The problem with D&D rituals is that they are something that you can just cast over and over and will want to. Ritual magic should be something that lets you do one specific thing (curse a red haired person who lives within two miles of where you're standing) under specific circumstances (in the middle of the forest on the second Tuesday after a full moon while both the sun and moon are in the sky) when you perform specific actions (burying a silver locket containing the hair of the person you wish to curse and part of an acorn). Some rituals might be more or less specific (especially the specific circumstances, some rituals should be a case of 'anytime except...' instead of 'only when...'), but they should be the kind of thing you don't just bust out every day. Those things take effort.

Because for many rituals ten minutes really isn't that big a deal. Especially the ones with hour long effects, but there's also the ones that last for a minute or less but can save you hours of time (I'm looking at you Detect Magic and Identify!) Most of the time there should be something the other characters can do for ten minutes, although casting on the hour every hour will get old fast (Alarm while setting up camp? I'll take care of my gear. But stop making us pause every hour so you don't have to carry your pack), with a handful of exceptions (if it means getting more loot back to the beasts of burden most parties can probably stomach stopping for a floating disc).

[Tanarii]

Because for many rituals ten minutes really isn't that big a deal. Depends on if/how your DM makes time matter.

Ten minutes to cast a ritual can be quite a big deal if there's a wandering monster or other "bad things happen" check periodically. When time matters, time management is a meaningful decision. Things like ritual casting, or moving at 1/10 speed to automatically detect threats vs moving at full speed and depending on passive perception. Ditto for searching a room, or a door or chest for traps. Do I do it quickly using passive perception/investigation, or take ten times as long to to automatically succeed?

Of course, if the DM doesn't make time matter, then ten minutes doesn't matter at all. But that has quite a lot of implications for the system.

[Elissa]

I usually do my ritual casting while the other party members are doing something else, like talking to an NPC or searching a room.

[Drascin]

There is also the fact to consider that it kind of looks silly in-universe. Imagine someone doing travel by phantom steed. Every forty five to fifty minutes he has to stop, unload the ghost horse that will vanish soon, set up the candles and stuff for the ritual, go through the entire ritual again, load the new horse, and set off again. It's actually faster than a normal horse even with this, but I can fully understand why characters would rather go "you know what, let's just buy Wizard Steve a horse". I know that in the Wizard's shoes I'd end up feeling real silly while the rest of my party waited on me seven times a day!

[Mellack]

There is also the fact to consider that it kind of looks silly in-universe. Imagine someone doing travel by phantom steed. Every forty five to fifty minutes he has to stop, unload the ghost horse that will vanish soon, set up the candles and stuff for the ritual, go through the entire ritual again, load the new horse, and set off again. It's actually faster than a normal horse even with this, but I can fully understand why characters would rather go "you know what, let's just buy Wizard Steve a horse". I know that in the Wizard's shoes I'd end up feeling real silly while the rest of my party waited on me seven times a day!

I personally don't see how that looks silly. I do not think it is silly when someone has to pull over every hour or so to get gas, go to the restroom, stretch their legs. I don't find it silly when someone has to stop every 15 minutes to refill the printer paper because it is empty. I don't find it silly when someone has to stop to rest every 20 minutes during a run or tennis game. These are just things we take as normal because they are expected when doing that action. The same for casting.

[KorvinStarmast]

Re: On Ritual Spell Casting Times - mechanically well-balanced, but...believable? yes, believable. I find it odd that you accept the existence of magic, but somehow have trouble with how to implement a ritual spell, versus something else, as "believable" or not.

Required reading: Conan stories by R.E. Howard, particularly the ones with Toth the wizard in it. Ritual spells have a long and storied history in D&D and the fiction that inspired it. Embrace them.

[Tanarii]

Imagine someone doing travel by phantom steed. Every forty five to fifty minutes he has to stop, unload the ghost horse that will vanish soon, set up the candles and stuff for the ritual, go through the entire ritual again, load the new horse, and set off again.
Rituals don't require anything other than the normal components. You can use a focus as usual to replace non-consumable / costly M components.

Phantom Steed specifically is V/S only.

[DanyBallon]

Bored character can be fun some times. In a game, the characters were in a large room with strange lights and a sarcophagus sitting in the center. The wizard suggested to cast Detect Magic as a ritual, and everyone agreed. But one (impulsive) character got bored and decided to poke at the sarcophagus. He manage to open the lid, only for a magical fire trap to explode as he opened the lid. Luckily for him, he manage to make his dex saving throw. Not so lucky, the wizard sitting close to the sarcophagus in while casting his ritual. :smallbiggrin:

This led to many laugh and a big warning to the bored character player, to never do something stupid like this ever again :smalltongue:

[mormon_soldier]

I actually have an idea for a 4e setting where ritual magic is the only 'learned' magic, no Wizard class, if you have fast access magic it's either something you get from somebody else (Divine powers, Primal powers, Warlocks), or something you were born with (Sorcerers). Unsure where psionics or Bards come into that (Artificers can fit in slightly more easily).

For bards, the flavor of their magic being part or a result of a song lends itself well to that idea. They just have to play a whole song before they complete the ritual. I like it.

[Dr. Cliché]

I think my characters will generally use rituals for one of two reasons:

1) They've got nothing better to do.

2) They're low on spell slots and/or need to conserve them.


In terms of 1, my characters aren't going to be using rituals during a fight or in a chase or such. However, if they've got some time to kill, they might prefer using a ritual spell as it will not only save them a spell slot but will also give them something to do with their time. I've also had a druid get annoyed with the actions of the party and go off on her own. One of the things she did was perform a couple of ritual spells - partially to take her mind off recent events.

As for 2, this could apply to low-level casters (if you've got a single Lv2 spell slot that needs to last the entire day, a 10 minute ritual might seem more appealing), Warlocks, higher-level casters who've used most of their spells etc.. Or if you've got a lot of spell slots but are expecting a very hard battle ahead and think you might need every one of them.

Of course, the latter assumes that the character is at least reasonably pragmatic. A more impulsive character might just shrug and cast the spell normally. To Hell with the consequences. :smallwink:

Honestly, though, most of my characters use rituals pretty infrequently - if at all.

[SLOTHRPG95]

I think my characters will generally use rituals for one of two reasons:

2) They're low on spell slots and/or need to conserve them.

As for 2, this could apply to low-level casters (if you've got a single Lv2 spell slot that needs to last the entire day, a 10 minute ritual might seem more appealing), Warlocks, higher-level casters who've used most of their spells etc.. Or if you've got a lot of spell slots but are expecting a very hard battle ahead and think you might need every one of them.

Of course, the latter assumes that the character is at least reasonably pragmatic. A more impulsive character might just shrug and cast the spell normally. To Hell with the consequences. :smallwink:

Honestly, though, most of my characters use rituals pretty infrequently - if at all.

Most of my players cut their teeth on 3rd edition, or even (for one of them) AD&D 2nd edition, and then jumped straight from 3rd to 5th. So they view Rituals as a miraculous blessing, remembering all too well the days when running out of spell slots meant you were totally useless as a Wizard/Mage.

[Segev]

It occurs to me that, if you have rituals that you need to cast more quickly on a regular basis, having the ability to cast the spell as a ritual still means you can cast the spell. So, in theory, you could make magic items. A wand or staff or Figurine of Wondrous Power that uses phantom steed, or a pair of glasses that cast detect magic at will, or a wand of Tenser's floating disk...

[KorvinStarmast]

It occurs to me that, if you have rituals that you need to cast more quickly on a regular basis, having the ability to cast the spell as a ritual still means you can cast the spell. So, in theory, you could make magic items. A wand or staff or Figurine of Wondrous Power that uses phantom steed, or a pair of glasses that cast detect magic at will, or a wand of Tenser's floating disk...

This leads to perhaps a different form of spell preparation: having to cast a ritual version of a spell to recharge a wand or staff. (Had a 1e DM set it up like that, but that's not in 5e rules, since staves and wands recharge in a sort of "daily powers" model that looks a bit like 4e).

[Dr. Cliché]

Most of my players cut their teeth on 3rd edition, or even (for one of them) AD&D 2nd edition, and then jumped straight from 3rd to 5th. So they view Rituals as a miraculous blessing, remembering all too well the days when running out of spell slots meant you were totally useless as a Wizard/Mage.

I also started in 2nd edition and know exactly what you mean.

However, I think the biggest breakthrough in terms of running out of spells has been Cantrips.

What's more, whilst I agree as a player that rituals can be useful, many of my characters don't take such a pragmatic view. :smalltongue:

[Tanarii]

1) They've got nothing better to do.

2) They're low on spell slots and/or need to conserve them.This seems like a weird check list to me. I almost never see a ritual caster that CAN cast a spell as a ritual use a slot do it. My players will always take the extra time to avoid spending a slot, even with the increased risk due to wandering monster checks.

Their checklist for spells that can be cast as a spell ritual seems to be approximately:
1) Do I need the spell in a tearing hurry to stay alive right tf now?
If yes, slot.
If no, goto 2.
2) Is what I'm getting out of a ritual worth the increased risk of encounters?
If yes, ritual.
If not, do not cast.

(Expanded to 2 decision points. :smallamused: )

[Dr. Cliché]

This seems like a weird check list to me.

Minor point but they were actually alternatives - not a checklist.


I almost never see a ritual caster that CAN cast a spell as a ritual use a slot do it. My players will always take the extra time to avoid spending a slot, even with the increased risk due to wandering monster checks.

But isn't this the whole point of the thread?

If you're not short of time then, sure, rituals are always better.

However, it seems strange to assume that casters will always be as pragmatic as players, and so will always be content to complete a 10-minute ritual, rather than burning a spell slot.

As I said, I've played more than one caster who simply wouldn't have the patience to cast their spells as a rituals. :smalltongue:

[MilkmanDanimal]

Casting a ritual essentially means the party gets a 10 minute break; if I'm a fighter in heavy armor, being able to relax for a bit and take the load off would be welcome. In my experience, players aren't casting rituals all that often, really; if you kill a bunch of goblins, people probably aren't inspired to cast Detect Magic, but the big necromancer at the end? Sure.

[Tanarii]

But isn't this the whole point of the thread?

If you're not short of time then, sure, rituals are always better.You seemed to be suggesting that unless you were short on slots, using it as a slot is always better.

Whereas what I've experienced, at least from my players, is that unless it's life or death, a possible ritual spell will never be cast using a slot. They either cast as a ritual (willing to risk wm) or do without (unwilling to risk wm).

[Dr. Cliché]

You seemed to be suggesting that unless you were short on slots, using it as a slot is always better.

No, I was saying that those are the circumstances under which my characters usually cast spells as rituals.

Sorry for the confusion.



Whereas what I've experienced, at least from my players, is that unless it's life or death, a possible ritual spell will never be cast using a slot. They either cast as a ritual (willing to risk wm) or do without (unwilling to risk wm).

Just to be clear, from a meta perspective, I think rituals are absolutely better. If you have the time, then they're basically free, which is never a bad thing.

What I was trying to get across was that my characters are often impatient/impulsive, and so use ritual casting far more infrequently than a more pragmatic character might.

[kamap]

Depending on the DM the phantom steed spell could be cast while riding and just let the new steed replace the old one.
You don't need to be stationary to cast a a spell.
If you have prestidigitation, cast it and change somethings color then count to 60 or so, cast the ritual and get moving then when prestidigitation runs out the color reverts, you recast prestidigitation count to 50, cast the ritual and so forth.
No stopping involved.

Same with other rituals and I would happily spend 10 minutes casting something each hour to get a free steed, floating disk that can carry stuff or any of the other benefits.

[Estrillian]

I think I get the subtle point here of that does it make sense for every ritual spell to take the same amount of time? If I am using a ritual to cast Alarm over one window, should it really take 10 minutes? Or how about Locate object? Should Locate object vary depending on the distance of the object?

I agree with this. I've given players in my current campaign a number of Rituals that take far longer than 10 minutes, just to better reflect their power level. e.g. a Ritual that let five casters combine spell slots to give one caster a higher slot (to resurrect the party's only actual healer) took 8 hours, and had to end at dawn (it also consumed 15 spell levels, used all the material components of the raise dead, and did 20 damage to everyone involved ... and didn't work, but that's another story).

Similarly I've given a player a spell that will transport goods to someone else's Teleportation Circle at a lower level than Teleport, but it's a multi-hour ritual again.

And I could easily see making Detect Magic, specifically, faster. 1 minute would be fine.

[Anonymouswizard]

if you kill a bunch of goblins, people probably aren't inspired to cast Detect Magic, but the big necromancer at the end? Sure.

In practice most groups will stick all the loot in a bag and use Detect Magic on everything at the end of the day or adventure, potentially in town where the wizard can do this while everybody else prepares to go to the market and sell the stuff that doesn't point, or at least whole the cleric is doing their evening prayers and the Fighter is maintaining their equipment.

That's if the GM doesn't allow an Arcana check to see if something's magical, I've played under several that do.

[Tanarii]

In practice most groups will stick all the loot in a bagEach Tier 2 Hoard can 200 lbs no including art objects, and you're finding more than one of them per adventuring day. That's about 7 "bags" (sacks). A strong Barbarian can usually haul it, but it's gonna take solid shoulder yoke. :smallwink:


and use Detect Magic on everything at the end of the day or adventure,No red-blooded adventurer is not going to be thinking about the magical lootz at the end of the day. :smallamused:

Of course, by default RAW it isn't a find magical lootz spell at all, and doing what you've described means not getting to use the magic item during an adventure. Per DMG p136, merely handling a magic item lets you know it's magical ("something is extraordinary about it").

Detect Magic is designed to help during adventurers with magic in the environment, not just figure out what is magical lootz.

[Unoriginal]

It occurs to me that, if you have rituals that you need to cast more quickly on a regular basis, having the ability to cast the spell as a ritual still means you can cast the spell. So, in theory, you could make magic items. A wand or staff or Figurine of Wondrous Power that uses phantom steed, or a pair of glasses that cast detect magic at will, or a wand of Tenser's floating disk...

What are you talking about? How does "I can cast the spell as a ritual" translates to "I have several magic item formulas"?

You don't even need to cast spells to craft magic items.

[Segev]

What are you talking about? How does "I can cast the spell as a ritual" translates to "I have several magic item formulas"?

You don't even need to cast spells to craft magic items.

You don't? I thought you needed to have the spell to create it. I didn't think you automatically had the formulas, no, but I did think having the spell was required. That's...interesting.

[PhoenixPhyre]

You don't? I thought you needed to have the spell to create it. I didn't think you automatically had the formulas, no, but I did think having the spell was required. That's...interesting.

The only exception (to my knowledge) is spell scrolls.

[Segev]

The only exception (to my knowledge) is spell scrolls.

That's still potentially useful, then. I'll have to look into scrolls again to see what it takes to use them. Can ritual casters use them?

[PhoenixPhyre]

That's still potentially useful, then. I'll have to look into scrolls again to see what it takes to use them. Can ritual casters use them?

I'm AFB, but I believe it's worded "has the spell on their list." So ritual casters can't, unless the scroll-spell is already on whatever other list they may possess.

[Unoriginal]

You don't? I thought you needed to have the spell to create it. I didn't think you automatically had the formulas, no, but I did think having the spell was required. That's...interesting.

The Xanathar's method allow anyone with the formula to do it.

Which mean the Dwarven Blacksmiths can actually forge weapons, armors and other items of wonder without begging a wizard to help.

[Segev]

I'm AFB, but I believe it's worded "has the spell on their list." So ritual casters can't, unless the scroll-spell is already on whatever other list they may possess.

So really only an exploit for Tomelocks, since it would let them scribe scrolls of ritual Warlock spells without having to spend a Warlock spell known on actually knowing it.

[rbstr]

I personally don't see how that looks silly. I do not think it is silly when someone has to pull over every hour or so to get gas, go to the restroom, stretch their legs. I don't find it silly when someone has to stop every 15 minutes to refill the printer paper because it is empty. I don't find it silly when someone has to stop to rest every 20 minutes during a run or tennis game. These are just things we take as normal because they are expected when doing that action. The same for casting.

Yeah, it's super weird that taking breaks from strenuous activity or to do something with more caution breaks people's verisimilitude. Even in stressful situations people are going to try and take a quick breather when able. In the case of ritual spells...of freaking course you're gonna save the spell slot if you can. That slot might be life-or-death.
Maybe if you're in a safe library and just casting comprehend languages you don't bother taking the time since you're safe...but you would sure as hell ritual cast phantom steed traveling through a dangerous forest, rather than burn slots.

[Jerrykhor]

Is it believable that the heroes can fight until at death's door, get healed for 1hp and get up fighting without any negative effects? And after 8 hours of sleep, is fully healed again? No, its not.

But I sure as hell would do that in real life if i could.

[Segev]

Is it believable that the heroes can fight until at death's door, get healed for 1hp and get up fighting without any negative effects? And after 8 hours of sleep, is fully healed again? No, its not.

But I sure as hell would do that in real life if i could.

That's kind-of the reverse of what I was getting at, though. It's also "unbelievable" that you could cause objects to float along behind you on an invisible disk after spending 10 minutes waving your arms and chanting. The question is, if you could, would you? How often? Would you prefer to have a cart or wagon and some hired hands to pull it, so it's always available without the 10 minute wait and the need to re-do it every 45 minutes?

[Mellack]

That's kind-of the reverse of what I was getting at, though. It's also "unbelievable" that you could cause objects to float along behind you on an invisible disk after spending 10 minutes waving your arms and chanting. The question is, if you could, would you? How often? Would you prefer to have a cart or wagon and some hired hands to pull it, so it's always available without the 10 minute wait and the need to re-do it every 45 minutes?

One of the issues is that the wagon and hired hands are not available to your adventurer many times. A wagon doesn't fit in a dungeon. Those hired hands die easily in the hostile environments that adventurers work in. So it is often a choice of carrying that stuff and being encumbered or casting the spell. Under those choices, it makes sense to cast the ritual.

[Tanarii]

One of the issues is that the wagon and hired hands are not available to your adventurer many times. A wagon doesn't fit in a dungeon. Those hired hands die easily in the hostile environments that adventurers work in. So it is often a choice of carrying that stuff and being encumbered or casting the spell. Under those choices, it makes sense to cast the ritual.
Totally agree. The wagon or porters, and guards all stay in base camp while you explore the ancient ruins. T. Floating Disk is for getting stuff back to he base camp. Not hauling it for days through the jungle while pygmies goblins slowly snipe off your men, eventually causing their moral to ...

Suddenly I've got a big hankering to accept one of those groups pestering me to run ToA for them. :smallamused:

[Willie the Duck]

One of the issues is that the wagon and hired hands are not available to your adventurer many times. A wagon doesn't fit in a dungeon. Those hired hands die easily in the hostile environments that adventurers work in. So it is often a choice of carrying that stuff and being encumbered or casting the spell. Under those choices, it makes sense to cast the ritual.

I have read the OP premise as -- would you (if you were an actual individual, living this life, where discomfort and annoyance are real things), when you have the choice (so yes, always have the ritual as backup), choose to take the option where 10 minutes of every hour you are re-reitualling your spells up, rather than make purchases, hire porters, or make plans such that you don't need to do this 1:6 downtime?

[Segev]

I have read the OP premise as -- would you (if you were an actual individual, living this life, where discomfort and annoyance are real things), when you have the choice (so yes, always have the ritual as backup), choose to take the option where 10 minutes of every hour you are re-reitualling your spells up, rather than make purchases, hire porters, or make plans such that you don't need to do this 1:6 downtime?

This is a good rephrasing of my opening post, yes.

[mgshamster]

I have read the OP premise as -- would you (if you were an actual individual, living this life, where discomfort and annoyance are real things), when you have the choice (so yes, always have the ritual as backup), choose to take the option where 10 minutes of every hour you are re-reitualling your spells up, rather than make purchases, hire porters, or make plans such that you don't need to do this 1:6 downtime?

We face similar questions in real life all the time. Would you clean your house up yourself, or pay a house cleaner $60 per week to come in for four hours to do it for you? Would you pace your own driveway, or pay someone to come in to do it for you? Would you build your own deck, or pay someone to do it? Would you pay for Bus/Uber/Taxi, or buy your own car?

In all of these situations, the answer comes down to affordability and time.

Can you afford a car or do you need to take the bus despite the extra time. Even if you could afford a car, is it worth it (maybe for someone in NY City, it isn't worth having a car). Do you have the time to deep clean your own house every week, or does the full time job + kids + night school + kids soccer practice all get in the way? Can you even afford it?

Even as an adventure, can you afford a team of horses? Even if you could, do you have the opportunity to purchase them? Might be worth having to stop every hour to get some more. It all just depends.

[Willie the Duck]

Even as an adventure, can you afford a team of horses? Even if you could, do you have the opportunity to purchase them? Might be worth having to stop every hour to get some more. It all just depends.

So, again this being my interpretation of the question the OP wanted us to be discussing, at what threshold does the wizard still casting Phantom Steed instead of buying horses become unbelievable? When, when the player-controlling-the-character keeps using the Phantom Steed option (because their character's annoyance doesn't really hurt them, and hey they are saving a few gp), even though horses would be cheap/convenient, does the rest of the players say under their breaths "there's no way that his character would be doing that?"

[Armored Walrus]

There is also the fact to consider that it kind of looks silly in-universe. Imagine someone doing travel by phantom steed. Every forty five to fifty minutes he has to stop, unload the ghost horse that will vanish soon, set up the candles and stuff for the ritual, go through the entire ritual again, load the new horse, and set off again. It's actually faster than a normal horse even with this, but I can fully understand why characters would rather go "you know what, let's just buy Wizard Steve a horse". I know that in the Wizard's shoes I'd end up feeling real silly while the rest of my party waited on me seven times a day!

Having ridden cross-country on a motorcycle with a 2.5 gallon tank, stopping every hour for ten minutes to refresh your mount isn't at all weird. Who wants to spend eight straight hours in the saddle anyway? Besides, while you're waiting for Wizard Steve, the party members with real horses are letting their horses graze, giving them a drink, brushing them, picking up their feet and inspecting their hooves/removing rocks. Horses aren't cars. They don't just walk forward at a steady pace for eight hours straight without pause or deviation.

This specific example I have no trouble believing at all.

On topic, an example of a mechanical behavior that became unbelievable for me in a game I run was when the party was following an enchanted boardwalk through a swamp. Staying on the boardwalk kept the monsters in the swamp at bay, but it was known to be trapped here and there with magical traps. My party wanted to ritually cast Detect Magic every ten minutes, walk for ten minutes, stop and cast it again for ten minutes, walk for ten minutes, etc. For days.

[Armored Walrus]

So, again this being my interpretation of the question the OP wanted us to be discussing, at what threshold does the wizard still casting Phantom Steed instead of buying horses become unbelievable? When, when the player-controlling-the-character keeps using the Phantom Steed option (because their character's annoyance doesn't really hurt them, and hey they are saving a few gp), even though horses would be cheap/convenient, does the rest of the players say under their breaths "there's no way that his character would be doing that?"

The other thing people are overlooking with the Phantom Steed example in particular is that the Steed is faster than a normal horse. You can cover eighty miles a day on one, or seventy if you subtract the ritual time. Versus only twenty four otherwise.

Back to my motorcycle example - if I could trade a required ten minutes of downtime (downtime I'd be using to gas up, wipe the road grit out of my face, and rehydrate anyway) in exchange for access to a special lane on the freeway with a speed limit that's more than double the normal speed limit, all things being equal (ie. that my bike is capable of moving that fast, that I can do so just as safely as at normal speed, etc.) I don't know why I wouldn't do it. I think you're way overestimating the average person's up-time if you think 1/6 downtime is unusual.

[Knaight]

I have read the OP premise as -- would you (if you were an actual individual, living this life, where discomfort and annoyance are real things), when you have the choice (so yes, always have the ritual as backup), choose to take the option where 10 minutes of every hour you are re-reitualling your spells up, rather than make purchases, hire porters, or make plans such that you don't need to do this 1:6 downtime?

This feeds into my position as well - the inconvenience of these rituals tends to be drastically less than the inconvenience of other options. Tenser's floating disk means you aren't carrying weight for hours on end, and it means you don't need to deal with the huge hassle that is being responsible for larger groups of people. Hiring those porters means you get to deal with the added logistics, with personnel issues, with expenses, etc. If you go with a cart or wagon you also get downtime, this time involving the feeding and care of an animal, plus vehicle maintenance (which is also probably best handled with a ritual if that's at all available).

As for believability, I could see doing this, personally. While I don't suck at waiting nearly as much as a lot of people today in developed countries (not having a smart phone helps) I'd assume adventurers would generally be significantly better at it.

[Ganders]

The question makes sense for clerics and druids and sorcerers that can only do rituals for spells they have prepared. So it's *only* about spending 10 minutes to save a spell slot.

But for wizards and warlocks, rituals are mostly for spells that you DON'T have prepared. Prepared spells pretty much have to be devoted to combat spells, or you'll end up dead. So rituals are for all the less important things you might want to do outside of combat.

[Bahamut7]

The question makes sense for clerics and druids and sorcerers that can only do rituals for spells they have prepared. So it's *only* about spending 10 minutes to save a spell slot.

But for wizards and warlocks, rituals are mostly for spells that you DON'T have prepared. Prepared spells pretty much have to be devoted to combat spells, or you'll end up dead. So rituals are for all the less important things you might want to do outside of combat.

Well it makes sense for all spellcasting I believe. The question comes down to, whether you are choosing to perform a ritual to save a spell slot or it's the only way for you to do that spell, should all rituals take 10 minutes to perform?

As previously stated, some rituals make no sense to take more than a minute or two while others SHOULD take longer than 10 minutes. Scrying or some other divination spell should take a little bit as it can be a big boon.

Considering 10 rounds of combat is equivalent to about 1 minute casting a spell without a ritual should use more mana than performing a ritual (as you are bypassing some of the shortcuts). But not in combat, whats wrong with Detect Magic or Identity taking 1 minute as oppose to 10?

On the flip side, if I making a Hero's Feast, 10 minutes is more than reasonable. I would even go for a revival taking an hour or more that includes prepping and hallowing the ground.

[Tanarii]

Considering 10 rounds of combat is equivalent to about 1 minute casting a spell without a ritual should use more mana than performing a ritual (as you are bypassing some of the shortcuts). But not in combat, whats wrong with Detect Magic or Identity taking 1 minute as oppose to 10?
My guess? Ten minutes is likely the amount of time because it:
- makes spending a slot on Detect Magic or Identify (for example) to save time vs ritual casting it an actually meaningful decision, provided it's a "time matters" campaign
- gives a single rule that makes it impossible to cast in combat

Also maybe because it is:
- traditionally how long it takes to search a 10x10 ft space thoroughly. Which in 5e would translate into automatic success at perception and investigation checks for secret doors, traps, and hidden lootz.
- traditionally how often wandering monster checks in a hostile dungeon

[Bahamut7]

My guess? Ten minutes is likely the amount of time because it:
- makes spending a slot on Detect Magic or Identify (for example) to save time vs ritual casting it an actually meaningful decision, provided it's a "time matters" campaign
- gives a single rule that makes it impossible to cast in combat

Also maybe because it is:
- traditionally how long it takes to search a 10x10 ft space thoroughly. Which in 5e would translate into automatic success at perception and investigation checks for secret doors, traps, and hidden lootz.
- traditionally how often wandering monster checks in a hostile dungeon

Yea. I was using those spells as an example, but the point still remains. Does it make sense from an in-universe or character perspective, for ALL rituals take the same amount to complete? I feel if anyone, DM or player, does not think that all rituals should take the same amount of time, then talk with the DM/players to agree on something that works for you.

[leogobsin]

Yea. I was using those spells as an example, but the point still remains. Does it make sense from an in-universe or character perspective, for ALL rituals take the same amount to complete? I feel if anyone, DM or player, does not think that all rituals should take the same amount of time, then talk with the DM/players to agree on something that works for you.

I mean it basically 'makes sense' as much as any other rule about how spellcasting functions makes sense: it's all made up with no real-world equivalent so there's really no argument that can be made about how much it makes sense other than "the rules say that's how it works and the rules are the only authority we have".

[BoxANT]

10 minutes of standing around while a wizard casts a spell?

For a current year human? Their cell phone / social media ADHD induced attention span would quickly get bored.
Hell, I've met people who can't sit through a old black and white movie (too slow) or read a book.

For a person living in a medieval village/town? Hell, it would take someone ten minutes just to go outside and walk to an outhouse and back.
No microwaves, no internet, no cars, etc.. Days just moved at a slower pace.

In game? Unless time is of the essence, I've never found it too burdensome to say "my dude takes 10 minutes and casts detect magic."
The other PCs either start exploring a little bit, or wait it out (or cast their own rituals!).

[kamap]

You could still keep on walking while you cast your ritual, nowhere is it stated that you need to be sationary to cast spells or rituals. I might be mistaken but I doubt it.
So you could be transporting goods with tensers floating disc, have some kind of timer set (duration of spell (- 10 minutes + casting time)) and start casting tensers floating disc again then when your done casting the new disc appears at the spot of the old disc and you just keep on moving.
No waiting required, no downtime, no hassle.