New Gestalt Game

[tstewt1921]

We are going to be starting a Game of Thrones style game in 3.5 soon, and all of our characters needed to be attached to the house in some way. The house is going to be a house that's closely connected with the church of Pelor. None of us will be the head of the house even though we can be family members should we choose. So the idea for my character is I'm going to be the Herald of the house. My goal is to know everyone within the house and the town we live in and the surrounding area, basically so when someone comes I know who they are, a bit about their family and things to that extent.

The build I'm thinking is simple, as we are only level 3 at the moment, will be Bard//Factotum.

I plan on prestiging out of Bard eventually but I'm curious if I should stick Factotum to 20 or is there a point when I should go out of it? That is the portion I need help on, and if you have any other suggestions for the concept please let me know.

[AnimeTheCat]

Out of curiosity, are you bound to the concept of Bard/Factotum? I ask primarily because it makes you slightly more MAD, simply needing Int and Cha to feed each of those classes. I'm not super up to speed on Factotum and how it functions, but IIRC it's all about applying your Int in various different ways to effect you, your party, and your surroudings right? Have you considered Bard/Marshal? It lacks the extra skills that Factotum would have granted you, but it also brings you to only needing a single ability score, Charisma, and augments your daily uses of Bardic music well by giving you differet 24/7 auras that you can project.

Because Bard already covers every knowledge skill as well as all of the necessary social skills, I feel like Factotum is just more of the same and the usefulness is reduced for that. Most of what you're wanting to do, that is know the local people and know other noble houses, can be accomplished with two skills; Knowledge (Local) and Knowledge (Local - whatever area you're in).

That's just my 2cp.

[tstewt1921]

Out of curiosity, are you bound to the concept of Bard/Factotum? I ask primarily because it makes you slightly more MAD, simply needing Int and Cha to feed each of those classes. I'm not super up to speed on Factotum and how it functions, but IIRC it's all about applying your Int in various different ways to effect you, your party, and your surroudings right? Have you considered Bard/Marshal? It lacks the extra skills that Factotum would have granted you, but it also brings you to only needing a single ability score, Charisma, and augments your daily uses of Bardic music well by giving you differet 24/7 auras that you can project.

Because Bard already covers every knowledge skill as well as all of the necessary social skills, I feel like Factotum is just more of the same and the usefulness is reduced for that. Most of what you're wanting to do, that is know the local people and know other noble houses, can be accomplished with two skills; Knowledge (Local) and Knowledge (Local - whatever area you're in).

That's just my 2cp.

I'm not bound to it, I just kind of thought it fit the jack of all trades type thing, but I could go Marshal for the extra auras, that could work. I haven't thought of Marshal at all.

[Hunter Noventa]

I'm not bound to it, I just kind of thought it fit the jack of all trades type thing, but I could go Marshal for the extra auras, that could work. I haven't thought of Marshal at all.

Bard and Factotum are both jack of All Trades classes on their own, they don't need to be combined like that. They both do best when wedded to another class that uses their main ability score. Bard//Marshal is a pretty good combo. I think Marhsal also has full BaB which Bard wants. If you'd rather hold onto Factotum, maybe Factotum//Warblade for the Int synergy, full BaB and martial maneuvers?

[tstewt1921]

Bard and Factotum are both jack of All Trades classes on their own, they don't need to be combined like that. They both do best when wedded to another class that uses their main ability score. Bard//Marshal is a pretty good combo. I think Marhsal also has full BaB which Bard wants. If you'd rather hold onto Factotum, maybe Factotum//Warblade for the Int synergy, full BaB and martial maneuvers?

I don't want to be so much attack oriented, I want to focus more on the buffing portion and not be up in the fight. So maybe a Cleric for more healing and buffing? I'm fine with having to classes that rely on different stats, we don't do a point buy we have set stats that we start with, 18,16,14,14,12,10. So it's not the biggest deal of worrying about 2 stats, at trying to have 3 stats up there it gets rough if we aren't going to be in a high magic game.

[Rebel7284]

I don't want to be so much attack oriented, I want to focus more on the buffing portion and not be up in the fight. So maybe a Cleric for more healing and buffing? I'm fine with having to classes that rely on different stats, we don't do a point buy we have set stats that we start with, 18,16,14,14,12,10. So it's not the biggest deal of worrying about 2 stats, at trying to have 3 stats up there it gets rough if we aren't going to be in a high magic game.

Maybe factotum/archivist? Int focus and Archivists are partially an int caster? Although if it's low magic, getting yourself extra off-list spells may be an issue. You can, of couse, do
Factotum 8/Chameleon 2 // Archivist 10 and use extra spell from Chameleon casting to get yourself all the spell. However, level 10 is very far off.

Cleric/Factotum works well and requires less spell research, so may be optimal for simplicity.

[Menzath]

I second bard//marshal, but if you do go the Int route a factotum//artificer could be a fun backline buffer, plus craft anything options.

[BowStreetRunner]

Maybe factotum/archivist? Int focus and Archivists are partially an int caster? Although if it's low magic, getting yourself extra off-list spells may be an issue. You can, of couse, do
Factotum 8/Chameleon 2 // Archivist 10 and use extra spell from Chameleon casting to get yourself all the spell. However, level 10 is very far off.

Cleric/Factotum works well and requires less spell research, so may be optimal for simplicity.I always liked the synergy of the factotum//archivist. As for the herald flavor, there was a character in the Merlin series on BBC that was always pulling out old musty tomes for Merlin, many of which involved heraldry. I could definitely see this working as something of a maester (from GoT) type herald chronicling all of the genealogies and histories of the house as well as running around on other various errands for the lord.

[tstewt1921]

I second bard//marshal, but if you do go the Int route a factotum//artificer could be a fun backline buffer, plus craft anything options.

A huge grin just came across my face when artifice was mentioned, how well does it go with Factotum or should I combine artificer with something else?

[tstewt1921]

I always liked the synergy of the factotum//archivist. As for the herald flavor, there was a character in the Merlin series on BBC that was always pulling out old musty tomes for Merlin, many of which involved heraldry. I could definitely see this working as something of a maester (from GoT) type herald chronicling all of the genealogies and histories of the house as well as running around on other various errands for the lord.

I'm not familiar with the archivist, I'll have to look at that, this does sound right in the roleplaying wheelhouse that I want.

[Cosi]

The thing about Gestalt, is that it's not really combining two characters. It's more like adding another class progression to your existing character. You don't get any feats, or wealth, or stats to boost your other side, which means that classes which don't require lots of resources are at a huge advantage. You should start by figuring out what character you want to play, then figure out a class that works with that. Good choices include Druid (full casting, only needs one feat), Artificer (comes with most of the feats it needs, allows you to stretch resources farther), and Rogue (most abilities apply passively, bonus feat allows you to take any feat without regard for prerequisites). Casters in general are also very good. Caster//Caster gestalts are probably the best, contrary to conventional wisdom about "active" and "passive" sides -- you can always sink more slots into some combination of buffs, minions, downtime spells, or celerity.

I don't think Bard is particularly good in Gestalt. Gestalt encourages combining two classes with strengths that complement the other's weaknesses. As a jack of all trades, the Bard doesn't have any glaring weaknesses that need to be covered, or any impressive strengths to offer.

Factotum, on the other hand, is a fairly strong choice for a gestalt (though not as good as many people believe). It allows you to take a large number of additional actions in combat, but offers very little to do with those actions. It's practically screaming to be combined with a Martial Initiator of some kind. Some people suggest Factotum//Caster gestalts, but in general I think those aren't as good as people hype them up to be. You have a fairly limited number of spells per day, and blowing more of them in one fight is unnecessary. Generally, those builds are inferior to slapping on a caster that gets celerity and using that (which has the added benefit of giving you a bunch of extra spells).


I plan on prestiging out of Bard eventually but I'm curious if I should stick Factotum to 20 or is there a point when I should go out of it? That is the portion I need help on, and if you have any other suggestions for the concept please let me know.

Under standard Gestalt rules, you will not be able to prestige Factotum and Gestalt simultaneously. If you are allowed to do that, Factotum 10/Chameleon 10 is a reasonable build (as others have noted). Chameleon's floating feat can be useful in a variety of situations. One potentially useful trick is to swap out different versions of Arcane Thesis to support a powerful metamagic blasting build without committing significant resources to a single trick.


Bard//Marshal is a pretty good combo. I think Marhsal also has full BaB which Bard wants.

Marshall has the same BAB as Bard, though not all Bard builds want full BAB (buffbots and casters, for example, don't really care). However, it doesn't strike me as a great choice. Marshall is just not that impressive of a class. The bonuses of major auras are substantially less than you'd get from some kind of casting buff build (like War Weaver), and you can get the only minor aura you really want (the bonus on DEX checks, which applies to initiative) with a one level dip.


If you'd rather hold onto Factotum, maybe Factotum//Warblade for the Int synergy, full BaB and martial maneuvers?

Factotum//Warblade would be my personal pick for best Factotum Gestalt. You get maneuvers to use your extra actions on, and unlike spells you aren't spending daily resources on your nuke, which means you can use it essentially every fight. If you're heart-set on Bard for whatever reason, you could even go Factotum//Bardblade (Bard 4/Warblade 16 with Song of the White Raven and Dragonfire Inspiration, generally).


A huge grin just came across my face when artifice was mentioned, how well does it go with Factotum or should I combine artificer with something else?

Artificer and Factotum both suffer immensely from low level weakness. If I were playing a gestalt Artificer, I would probably combine it with either Warblade or some caster. Otherwise you're going to find yourself struggling at low levels, even if you get to do ridiculous things like "triple Maximized Twinned Empowered Split Ray enervation" at high levels.

[DarkSoul]

Human Factotum 1 with Able Learner as a level 1 feat should be all you need for skill access. After that you're just looking for lots of skill points and class features so you're pretty free to do whatever you want.

[tstewt1921]

I don't think Bard is particularly good in Gestalt. Gestalt encourages combining two classes with strengths that complement the other's weaknesses. As a jack of all trades, the Bard doesn't have any glaring weaknesses that need to be covered, or any impressive strengths to offer.

Factotum, on the other hand, is a fairly strong choice for a gestalt (though not as good as many people believe). It allows you to take a large number of additional actions in combat, but offers very little to do with those actions. It's practically screaming to be combined with a Martial Initiator of some kind. Some people suggest Factotum//Caster gestalts, but in general I think those aren't as good as people hype them up to be. You have a fairly limited number of spells per day, and blowing more of them in one fight is unnecessary. Generally, those builds are inferior to slapping on a caster that gets celerity and using that (which has the added benefit of giving you a bunch of extra spells).

I'm not looking to break the gestalt character, I don't want to be martial in any way really. I'm fine with maybe caster, I'm focusing more on the story aspect of the character than the power.




Under standard Gestalt rules, you will not be able to prestige Factotum and Gestalt simultaneously. If you are allowed to do that, Factotum 10/Chameleon 10 is a reasonable build (as others have noted). Chameleon's floating feat can be useful in a variety of situations. One potentially useful trick is to swap out different versions of Arcane Thesis to support a powerful metamagic blasting build without committing significant resources to a single trick.

I do understand this, however our group allows you to be able to prestige at the same time, with Gestalt rules it's normally you can only prestige one at a time, but our group basically cares more about not breaking the game and lawn chairing the rest of the party.



Artificer and Factotum both suffer immensely from low level weakness. If I were playing a gestalt Artificer, I would probably combine it with either Warblade or some caster. Otherwise you're going to find yourself struggling at low levels, even if you get to do ridiculous things like "triple Maximized Twinned Empowered Split Ray enervation" at high levels.

Again same point as before, I'm not looking to break the character, and I don't want to be martial as the game is going to have 3-4 martial type characters already.

[AnimeTheCat]

Is there any reason not to play factotum/wizard then?

[Cosi]

Again same point as before, I'm not looking to break the character, and I don't want to be martial as the game is going to have 3-4 martial type characters already.

In that case I would generally recommend against playing an Artificer at all. They basically have two settings -- anemic Wizard and breaking the game. For a mid-OP build, you could do something like Factotum//Wizard/Mage of the Arcane Order as a maester. Very little martial ability, lots of utility options, and if you do opt to go all out, you'll generally only do so once a day until very high levels.

[Menzath]

In that case I would generally recommend against playing an Artificer at all. They basically have two settings -- anemic Wizard and breaking the game.

This is true.
Maybe in that case wizard would be better, or possibly psionic rouge or psion if powers are allowed.

[BowStreetRunner]

factotum//wizard and factotum//archivist aren't going to have a ton of difference in terms of power level if you're intentionally not trying to break the game. Both Wizard and Archivist are Intelligence based Tier 1 casters with lots of spells to use in a support role where the party already has all of the martial types it needs. I personally think the flavor of Archivist works better in this case, plus the Dark Knowledge mechanic fits nicely as well. However, while the vanilla Wizard doesn't have as much flavor specifically aimed at this sort of character, with the right prestige classes it certainly might have the better feel.

IMHO you really can't go wrong with a Factotum//Archivist or Factotum//Wizard based build here. Whether you prestige either side or just stick with the base class, I think you will be able to fit this into your campaign neatly. (Of course, if you do decide you want to optimize the heck out of the build, there would be a lot more to discuss about exactly what your optimization goals are. But unless you are going that direction I'm pretty sure anything along these lines will work fine.)

[Buddy76]

Factotum//Beguiler could also be good. You'd get the Int synergy and the Beguiler's list, while specialized, can be very good in political games.

Warlock with the right invocations could also be appropiate on either side. Beguiling Influence and Charm are great for social characters, and Walk Unseen, Fell Flight and Flee the Scene (among others) could help survivability during combat.

[tstewt1921]

How is an artificer broken, because you are limited by either the craft point system or the xp cost of stuff? What am I missing on that?

[Nifft]

How is an artificer broken, because you are limited by either the craft point system or the xp cost of stuff? What am I missing on that?

It's not more broken than a Wizard who focuses on crafting, but a Wizard who focuses on crafting can be plenty broken if you try.

If you're not trying to break the game, then Artificer is a fine class, and Infusions are surprisingly useful.


My advice regarding Factotum is go all-in to 20 on one side and budget a few feat slots on Font of Inspiration, or don't touch it. It's barely at par if you level it up, and it's worse than most T4+ classes if you only have a few levels of it.

Chameleon is better if you have stuff to build upon -- like a Favored Enemy (to leverage Ranger spells & floating bonus feat perks), or Rage (for Barbarian effects), or Turn Undead (uses are obvious when you have every Cleric spell). What the Factotum gives you in 5 levels is pathetic compared to what you can get from 5 other levels of ... most other classes, really.


Anyway, if you want to be a Factotum, then my advice is to buckle in for the long haul -- and make sure your other side gives you something to do, since Factotum provides buffs to actions and bonus actions, but not much value in terms of actually doing things with those actions.

Martial Initiator classes (Crusader, Warblade, Swordsage) are good. Casters can be good. Rogue or Warlock might be viable, though Rogue does the skills & combat stuff better than a Factotum anyway.


However, note that most casters have better ways to get bonus actions, and non-casters might benefit from durable enhancements more than the small perks that Inspiration offers. Like, a Tiger Claw Warblade might get a lot more benefit from the Sneak Attack of a Rogue on every hit than the occasional & weaker Sneak Attack of a Factotum -- and going Warblade 20 // Spellthief 1 / Wizard 4 / Unseen Seer 10 / ___ 5 is going to be a lot stronger in terms of sustained damage and utility options than what a Warblade 20 // Factotum 20 could do.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Consider using Incarnate for one side, it only really needs a decent Con score and it brings a lot to the table in the form of passive bonuses and buffs. Combine that with a high-skill high-utility class such as Bard, Beguiler, Cloistered Cleric, etc. and you've got what you're looking for.

[DMVerdandi]

We are going to be starting a Game of Thrones style game in 3.5 soon, and all of our characters needed to be attached to the house in some way. The house is going to be a house that's closely connected with the church of Pelor. None of us will be the head of the house even though we can be family members should we choose. So the idea for my character is I'm going to be the Herald of the house. My goal is to know everyone within the house and the town we live in and the surrounding area, basically so when someone comes I know who they are, a bit about their family and things to that extent.

The build I'm thinking is simple, as we are only level 3 at the moment, will be Bard//Factotum.

I plan on prestiging out of Bard eventually but I'm curious if I should stick Factotum to 20 or is there a point when I should go out of it? That is the portion I need help on, and if you have any other suggestions for the concept please let me know.

3.5? Based on everything that you have said, I would do:

Battle Dancer 1/Marshal 2/ Bard 18 // Sha'ir 10/War Weaver 5/Abjurant Champion 5.

You get full 9th level sorcerer/wizard casting, bard casting, music, a couple of marshal auras, and CHA to AC.
The build itself is almost completely charisma SAD. It's a little Gishy as well.

If anyone knows how you could get divine grace in that, it would also be dope.

[Azoth]

3.5? Based on everything that you have said, I would do:

Battle Dancer 1/Marshal 2/ Bard 18 // Sha'ir 10/War Weaver 5/Abjurant Champion 5.

You get full 9th level sorcerer/wizard casting, bard casting, music, a couple of marshal auras, and CHA to AC.
The build itself is almost completely charisma SAD. It's a little Gishy as well.

If anyone knows how you could get divine grace in that, it would also be dope.

Sub out two levels of Bard for Paladin of Freedom.

[DMVerdandi]

Sub out two levels of Bard for Paladin of Freedom.
Perfection.


As per your suggestion:
Battle dancer 1/Marshal 2/Paladin of freedom 2/Bard 16//Shair 10/War Weaver 5/Abjurant Champion 5

[Quertus]

Battle Dancer 1/Marshal 2/ Bard 18 // Sha'ir 10/War Weaver 5/Abjurant Champion 5.


Battle dancer 1/Marshal 2/Paladin of freedom 2/Bard 16//Shair 10/War Weaver 5/Abjurant Champion 5

Did you mean to have 21 levels on one side of gestalt each time?

[DMVerdandi]

Did you mean to have 21 levels on one side of gestalt each time?

Whoops. Subtract one level of bard.
Messed up the first time, and didn't catch the error.

Error aside, I think it's a pretty decent build. Definitely good for a herald. You get aura and songs, and can weave spells, and can fight pretty well.