[3.5] Gestalt Kobold and I am lost for what to make of her

[lylsyly]

The kicker is I said "I want to play a Dragonborn Dragonwrought Kobold." and the DM much to my surprise said "Okay. d:

Gestalt rules. Core+UA/Completes/Racials/Environmentals allowed with other 3.5 sources (even DragMag) upon review. NO PATHFINDER.

The rest of the party will be the Standard 4 classes with me as the 5th PC.

Lo/Mid optimization.

Looking for a gestalt combo that is not MAD, has good class synergy, can fight and cast, but not really looking for a true gish, but one whom can fight when needs must (don't care Arc/Div) although probably neither one well, AND has out of Combat utility.

Can prestige on both sides BUT all prereqs must come from that side of the build (ALL prereqs, I asked about bab and saves and was told "If that side of the build qualifies so do you." Once a class skill always a class skill "But that side of the build needs to meet the prereqs." See where I am going with this ;D

Figured I would come to the encyclopedia and ask for ideas.

Thank you for your time and consideration Gentlebeings of the Playground!

[zlefin]

bard//marshall would work pretty well for that.

[Cosi]

You could do a body outside body build. body outside body is a 7th level Wu Jen spell that creates duplicates of you with lower health who can't cast any spells. Ordinarily, it's mediocre at best. But in Gestalt, you can get half a dozen clones who can throw out high level abilities from other classes.

Get body outside body + Persistent Spell on one side. Wu Jen is the only class to get body outside body natively and is a reasonable choice on its own, but Knowstones, RAW Extra Spell, Wyrm Wizard, Runestaves and probably some other tricks can get it for whatever class you want. Persistent Spell is generally grabbed via Incantatrix, but Binder into Anima Mage works better because it gets you some binding on your duplicates.

Get any option that isn't casting on the other side. Good ones include Warblade (quadruple white raven tactics packs a hell of a punch) and Wild Shape Ranger (since you can dual PrC, you can take Master of Many Forms). For a more utility focused build, you could go with Incarnate or Totemist.

Alternatively, you could do a Spellwarp Sniper build. It's a little less of a physical combatant than a body outside body Warblade, but it comes with a lot of utility. My suggestion would be something like Wizard 5/Incantatrix 3/Primal Scholar 5//Beguiler 5/Mindbender 1/Rainbow Servant 1/Unseen Seer 1/Spellwarp Sniper 1, with whatever you want to fill out the spare levels. There are three important tricks here. First, there's the standard Primal Scholar + Persistent unfettered heroism for unlimited 5th level or lower spells. Second, there's Spellwarp Sniper + sandblast (get it from a Knowstone, or the Apprentice feat), which gives you a no-save ranged touch stun (which you get at-will thanks to Primal Scholar). Third, there's Beguiler + Prestige Domain + substitute domain, which gets you the ability to swap to any domain your god (or gods if you worship a pantheon) and cast those spells whenever you want for unparalleled versatility (and you can do this whenever you want thanks again to Primal Scholar).

For a simple but functional build you could go with Cleric/Dweomerkeeper//Warblade. You get the standard Cleric buff routine, supplemented by Warblade maneuvers, and you can use Supernatural Spell + limited wish to emulate any spell of 6th level or lower at no XP cost (notably, permanency and awaken loops).

Similar to the previous, but as an arcanist you could do something like Beguiler 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5//Wizard 5/War Weaver 5/Incantatrix 10. An effective support character who can also wade into melee as needed at higher levels, while retaining a fairly high degree of versatility. You can also combine War Weaver with body outside body to provide your own bodies to buff, though that takes some work to make functional.

[Nifft]

Can you take any Flaws? Are you Venerable?


It's not exactly fighting & casting, but a fun build is:

Kobold Dragonfire Adept 20 // Sorcerer / PrCs -- You've got a breath weapon and you're a Dragon type and you cast like a Sorcerer, so obviously you're a True Dragon. Just a very small one.

Take the Wings dragonborn option since you've already got a bunch of breath weapons and all the benefits of the Dragon type.

In melee, use your breath weapon(s). That means you can focus on utility Sorcerer spells instead, stuff like alter self gives a Dragon some great movement options (shadow wyrmling is very fast).

How do skill prereqs work in terms of "one side" qualifying? A dip into Mindbender on the Sorcerer side would be great, but you get the social skills from the DFA side. You could have qualified using cross-class ranks on the Sorcerer side, but you don't pay cross-class because you're gestalt.


Low-op to me means stuff like: at level 6, you do the Rite of Greater Draconic Passage, which gives you +1 effective Sorcerer level. You use this to take Sand Shaper 1 (which costs 1 level of Sorcerer spellcasting). You cast like a level 7 Sorcerer at 7 HD -- instead of being ahead of the curve, you're right at the curve, but you have a lot of additional spells known thanks to Sand Shaper 1. You might even take more levels of Sand Shaper after the first.

[BowStreetRunner]

Looking for a gestalt combo that is not MAD, has good class synergy, can fight and cast, but not really looking for a true gish, but one whom can fight when needs must (don't care Arc/Div) although probably neither one well, AND has out of Combat utility.When I am playing the fifth wheel, one of the first things I turn to are magic item crafting builds. You can make all of the nice things the rest of the party needs and then you can do what you like in combat as long as you don't outshine anyone else in their main role.

Warlock gestalts pretty well with a lot of different things, since it's really not attribute dependent. At 12th level that imbue item ability is going to be huge.

Factotum/Chameleon makes a fantastic magic item crafter option, and gestalts well with any Intelligence based class such as Duskblade, Wizard, or Archivist.

Of course, Wizard is always a great option and could pick up versatility from Factotum or durability from Warblade.

I'm not an Artificer expert, but would imagine it's not very different from Wizard in this respect.

EDIT: forgot about the racial requirements on Factotum/Chameleon.

[PunBlake]

Since this is low to mid-op, consider spellthief 1 / hexblade 19 // rogue / <insert PrCs here>. You gain Evasion for all saves with Mettle, great skills, and the ability to be both party face and striker/debuffer. Using Master Spellthief, you can steal spells. The later DragonMags have a bunch of nice Hexblade's Curse feats if you want them, and its spell list is actually not bad. Use a weapon with a wand chamber / wand bracers and rogue's UMD to use whatever spell(s) you want from other lists.

[Nifft]

Factotum/Chameleon makes a fantastic magic item crafter option, and gestalts well with any Intelligence based class such as Duskblade, Wizard, or Archivist.

Chameleon is limited to Humans and part-Humans, not a Dragonwrought Dragonborn Double-Dragon Kobold -- and Factotum is awful as a prefix for Chameleon.


I'm not an Artificer expert, but would imagine it's not very different from Wizard in this respect.

Artificer plays very differently from a Wizard. It's only during downtime that they seem somewhat similar.


Since this is low to mid-op, consider spellthief 1 / hexblade 19 // rogue / <insert PrCs here>.

You probably want to not take Rouge 1 // Spellthief 1 or you'll lose a die of Sneak Attack, so some kind of level staggering might be useful.

I don't like Hexblade much but I do like Spellthief. Hmm.

How about...

Crusader 20 // Spellthief 1 / Sorcerer 4 / Unseen Seer 10 / Arcane Trickster 5 -- use the Dragonscale Husk option in Dragon Magic (p.12) to replace the Crusader's heavy armor with an extra-thick set of dragon scales that don't hinder spellcasting. You cast with Cha, you add your Cha to saves vs. spells, and you get Sneak Attack + really good team-boosting Maneuvers. At ECL 5, you've got level 2 spells and level 3 maneuvers (hello White Raven Tactics).

[lylsyly]

Some good ideas all.

Yes I am taking Venerable, because why not ;D
Wings aspect definitely.

1 trait and 2 flaws (my bad, should of added that)

I haven't played a DFA in awhile so one side is taken care of (who prestiges out of DFA?).

Spellthief 1/Sorcerer ??/Mindbender 1/Sand Shaper 1 (or more)/??? of other Sorcerer PRCs (may as well tack on as many class features as I can without losing a level of casting ;D).

Or a crusader/cleric/RKV build. I'll have to ask the group if they would prefer another arcane or another divine caster (and then try to convince them that Kobolds are born sorcerers). Another thought I am having is a fochulan lyrist build.

And it just dawned on me that either way I go is going to be kinda feat starved due to taking metabreath feats (at least a couple).

And yeah, the skills and points have to be possible on that side of the build (yeah, I am scratching my head too).

I guess everyone in the group but me is in a gestalt mood, can't remember ever having more than 1 gestalt game going at the same time.

[Goaty14]

Yes I am taking Venerable, because why not ;D

Wouldn't Dragonborn disqualify you for Dragonwrought, since you lose "being a kobold" when renewed as a dragonborn?

[Nifft]

The rest of the party will be the Standard 4 classes with me as the 5th PC. What does "standard 4 classes" mean in the context of Gestalt?

Forgot to ask that before.

Also, what level are you starting, and how far do you expect to advance?


Yes I am taking Venerable, because why not ;D
Wings aspect definitely.

1 trait and 2 flaws (my bad, should of added that)

I haven't played a DFA in awhile so one side is taken care of (who prestiges out of DFA?). Cool, good stuff. I'm assuming you want most of this stuff, too: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a

It's not like claw/claw/bite are life-changing, but it's nice to have more options, and the benefits of being Tiny are potentially useful too.


Spellthief 1/Sorcerer ??/Mindbender 1/Sand Shaper 1 (or more)/??? of other Sorcerer PRCs (may as well tack on as many class features as I can without losing a level of casting ;D). Spellthief is great if you can build around it, but the DFA takes you in a different direction. You can't sneak attack with your breath weapon, after all. So I'd advise not spending any levels on Spellthief.


And yeah, the skills and points have to be possible on that side of the build (yeah, I am scratching my head too).

Mindbender only requires 4 ranks in 4 skills, so you can hit that cross-class at ECL 5 with 14 Int (which is easy as a Venerable Dragonwrought).

So at ECL 6 your build might look like...

Dragonfire Adept 6 // Sorcerer 5 / Mindbender 1 - Dragonblood Sorcerer ACF at level 1, not at level 4

Feats:
L1 feat - Dragonwrought
ACF feat - Draconic Heritage -- though really this isn't as good as usual since you're a Dragon type already, maybe trade your Familiar for something else?
Flaw (___) feat - Entangling Exhalation
Flaw (___) feat - maybe a Bloodline feat?
L3 Feat - Draconic Reservoir (from the web article linked above; necessary for Rite of Greater Draconic Passage at level 6)
L6 Feat - Mindsight

Rites:
- L1 - Rite of Draconic Passage (RotDr; -1 HP, gain level 1 spell as SLA, take identify to remove the 100 gp material component)
- L6 - Rite of Greater Draconic Passage (RotDr WE linked above; -3 HP, gain +1 level of Sorcerer casting)

DFA Damage reduction 2/magic

DFA Breath Effects (damage 3d6):
- L1 - Fire
- L2 - Cold
- L5 - Slow

DFA Invocations:
- L1 - Endure Exposure
- L3 - Beguiling Influence
- L6 - Voracious Dispelling

Spells Known (as level 7 Sorcerer):
L0 (7) - Detect Magic, Read Magic, Prestidigitation, whatever
L1 (5) - Benign Transposition (SpC), Charm Person (for Mindbender), Friendly Face (RoD), Power Word: Pain (RotDr), Stone Fist (SpC)
L2 (3) - Alter self, Glitterdust, Wings of Cover (RotDr)
L3 (2) - Great Thunderclap (SpC), Suggestion


The trouble is: where do you go from there? You're able to hit Mindbender right on time, but you don't have the feat slots or skill point slack for most other PrCs.

Maybe drop Mindbender and go into Sand Shaper at ECL 6? You can bypass the skill rank requirement for the Touchstone feat if you have a physical link to the Touchstone site, which costs money but that's what WBL is for.

[BowStreetRunner]

Wouldn't Dragonborn disqualify you for Dragonwrought, since you lose "being a kobold" when renewed as a dragonborn?
You keep your Type and subtype, but not your race. So you become Humanoid (Reptilian, Dragonblood). Some of the races luck out - such as an elf becomes Humanoid (Elf, Dragonblood) and a human becomes Humanoid (Human, Dragonblood) - and can still qualify as their original race by virtue of their subtype. But in this case I don't believe you still count as a Kobold if you go through the transformation to Dragonborn.

However, it is a bit inconsistent and unfair. There really is no reason an elf should have the elf subtype (and not mammalian) and a kobold should have the reptilian subtype (and not kobold). So if I were the DM I would probably hand-wave it through anyway.

[Calthropstu]

In this case, I might recommend warlock/spellthief. Sneak attack + blast power + steal spell = some pretty potent combo effects. It's not MAD, and you can borrow spells from allies in a pinch.In fact, it's a great back up if the healer ever goes down.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Ranger//Cleric (emphasising the Cleric side) might do nicely. Fits all your boxes, pretty good chassis generally, nice and SAD. And there's a lot you can do with Cleric Prestige Classes and ACFs for both.

[lylsyly]

And yeah, the skills and points have to be possible on that side of the build (yeah, I am scratching my head too).

Talked her out of this. Makes things much easier, esp. since we play once a class skill always a class skill


Wouldn't Dragonborn disqualify you for Dragonwrought, since you lose "being a kobold" when renewed as a dragonborn?


The kicker is I said "I want to play a Dragonborn Dragonwrought Kobold." and the DM much to my surprise said "Okay. d:

RAW, yes. But see above. Not even going to lose a feat. Not everyone plays RAW. I know we certainly don't. ;)

Spellthief was to take Master Spellthief but I am going to play without armor so that level is removed. Between Mage Armor and the Scales + from DFA I should be somewhat okay until I get stuff with WBL and better spells.

The rest of the group is (mostly we get to L20):
Barbarian//Fighter (will build a charger)
Cleric//Mystic Ranger (will stick with this throughout)
Wizard//Feat Rogue (will PRC both sides)
Rogue//Warlock (definitely will take assassin prc but I don't know what else)

And then there is me with my DFA 20//some kinda spontaneous arcane caster. I am considering a a sorcerer based build, a bard-sublime chord build, and a fochulan lyrist or arcane heirophant type build (there are some really good spells on the druid list). If I do go with the latter two I will be using the Totem Druid from Drag mag 335 (I know it will be approved).

EDIT: Almost forgot - She opened up Warlock Invocations for me. YAY!!

[Ramza00]

There are so many builds you can do with this, so let me just give you not a whole entire build but some rough ideas for this character idea is not to be hyper-specialized but instead a jack of all trades that can do some thing really well and some things well enough.

On one side of your build should be Sorcerer / Fullcasting PRCs.

The other side of your build is giving you more options.


Spellthief Part

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20051122a


Spellthief 1 allows you to to steal spells via trading 1d6 of sneak attack. Sneak Attacks can be made with melee weapons, natural weapons, and ranged weapons within 30 feet.
The more attacks you can make the more spells you can steal at once for each attack can steal a spell.
Spellthief 2 allows you to steal spell effect (aka buffs) from your enemies. That said a 2 level dip into Spellthief limits the buffs you can steal based off caster level with the highest buffs you can steal are Charisma Modifier+2.
Master Spellthief feat allows you to steal higher level spells not just 0 or 1st level spells with a 1 or 2 level dip into Spellthief.
Remember Spells stolen can fuel a great Gish Feat Arcane Strike, effectively power attack for Gishes that stack with Power Attack.
Sniper Shot (Spell Compedium 1st level is the most recent version) makes your sneak attacks have unlimited ranged for 1 round, and it is a swift action personal buff to cast.


Getting Natural Attacks


This variant Kobold has natural weapons of 2 claws and 1 bite. The Damage is weak but it is extra attacks we can combine with steal spells via Spellthief http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a
There is a totemist soulmeld called Chaos Roc Span that gives you two wing buffet attacks without even doing a chakra bind. It is located in Dragon 350. Reflavor this as your dragon wing attacks.
There are many other totemist chakras binds you can do to get more natural weapons. See here http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?127463-3-X-Extra-attacks-natural-attacks-AoO Some of these stack with the Kobold 2 Claws and 1 Bite and some do not.
You do not have to but most likely you are going to do a 2 level dip into totemist that gives you 3 soulmelds, 2 essentia, and 1 chakra bind including the ability to do a chakra bind on your totem chakra.
Ask your DM if you can use the Dragon Tail Soulmeld located here as a secondary natural weapon. http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=4 By RAW it is not a natural weapon for it does not say it is a natural weapon like most soulmelds but this may be an oversight. Then again some soulmelds are not natural weapons for example Manticore Belt gives you a ranged attack that is not a natural weapon that gets "extra attacks" equal to the amount of essenta in it.
Dragon Tail feat from Races of the Dragon will give you a tail attack if your DM will not allow the soulmeld to work as a secondary natural attack.
The Improved Unarmed Strike Feat, which Monk 1 gives for Free will allow you to make unarmed strikes as your primary natural weapon but with iterative and then you can use all your other natural weapons as secondary natural weapon at -5, or you can take multiattack to lower the penalty to -2, and improved multiattack to make the secondaries have a -0 / no penalty. You can also twf (gloves of the balanced hand from MIC gives you TWF for 8,000 GP) your unarmed strike, and take rapidstrike and improved rapid strike. What I am saying is you got options.
There are all kind of buff spells and feats that can increase the damage of your unarmed strikes such as greater mighty wallop increasing size categories, improved natural attack / fanged ring your unarmed strikes, beast strikes feat from dragon magic+ eldritch claws (if you want one side to have lots of warlock), or beast strike+psionics and claws of the beast and so on.
Regardless the goal is to get natural weapons+unarmed strikes to get lots of attacks, each of these trigger a steal spell effect, which you can in then turn channel into arcane strike or just cast the spell you stolen
The 1st level Spell Blood Wind makes all your unarmed strikes and natural weapons into ranged weapons for 1 round instead of mere melee weapons. It is a swift action to cast and it requires you to use a full round attack action to use these ranged weapons. This spell can be extended to give you a 2 round version with a single swift action. Furthermore the spell is close ranged so you can cast it on yourself or your allies can cast it onto you, or even a familiar with a magic wand who sits on your shoulder can cast it onto you.


So what I just listed Totemist 2/ Master Spellthief 2/X 16

Gives you

2 Claw+1 Bite via Kobold
2 Chaos Roc Wing Buffet Attacks (reflavor as dragon)
Other natural weapons, lets assume Girallion Arms which gives you 2 extra claw attacks (for a total of 4 claw attacks)
That is 7 natural weapons, and if your DM allows Dragon Tail as a Tail Natural Attack that is 8 Natural Weapons. If your DM will not allow Dragon Tail Soulmeld the Dragon Tail Feat gives it to you.

That is 8 sneak attacks within 30 foot range all stealing spells with Blood Wind+Master Spellthief. Plus your normal weapon damage with a weapon in melee range, or if you take IUS, Monk 1, or Fanged Ring you get iterative. Arcane Strike will make these natural weapons actually do real damage which is fueled effectively for free by stealing spells.


Plus you are a Full Sorcerer Arcane Spellcaster


Allowing all the normal arcane goodness but also all the unique dragon spells like wings of cover (OMG so good for both you and your allies), wings of flurry, and so on.

And the build I listed above allows you 16 levels of something else, and it can take very little feat investment or lots of feat investment depending on how much you want to improve your natural weapons. Hell you could go Bard 16+Dragonfire Inspiration+Chaos Music (regain those 4 lost bard levels with bardic music) or you can do something completely else, the whole point of the build I did above is that it is a loose template you can incorporate in many other builds while at the same time giving you the flavor of a miniature kobold who is emulating the soul of a much larger dragon and thus has a much larger dragon natural weapon attack routine.

-----

Now there is nothing wrong with Dragonfire Adepts. Buth the build I listed above can lay down just as much damage as a Dragonfire Adept (for you are using Arcane Strike to buff your natural weapons) at something like 7 to 10 different enemies, or all at the same enemy (stacking a lot of damage.)

Flavor is forever mutable, for example you can pretend you are a dragon but you have an astral "big dragon" overlay on top of your smaller kobold self like "armor."

Or perhaps you can make a body motion when you use blood wind, with a claw, a wing, and so on and you then channel that energy into a miniature breath attack which you then breathe out of your mouth and attack in a very small burst that hits a single creature like you are toothless from How To Train Your Dragon where you do "rapid fire night fury" breath attacks.

And if you want area of effect breath weapons attacks that is what spells are for. Frost Breath (small amount of damage but also includes a daze as a 2nd level slot), Fireball / Scintillating Sphere / Ice Blast, etc. You can also take the feat "Sculpt Spell" to allow you multiple shapes of breath weapon and so on. And due to the MIC item Bracers of Entangling the Blast for 2,000 GP you get a 3 a day Entangling Blast feat that works on your spells instead of your breath weapon.

[Calthropstu]

There are so many builds you can do with this, so let me just give you not a whole entire build but some rough ideas for this character idea is not to be hyper-specialized but instead a jack of all trades that can do some thing really well and some things well enough.

On one side of your build should be Sorcerer / Fullcasting PRCs.

The other side of your build is giving you more options.


Spellthief Part

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20051122a


Spellthief 1 allows you to to steal spells via trading 1d6 of sneak attack. Sneak Attacks can be made with melee weapons, natural weapons, and ranged weapons within 30 feet.
The more attacks you can make the more spells you can steal at once for each attack can steal a spell.
Spellthief 2 allows you to steal spell effect (aka buffs) from your enemies. That said a 2 level dip into Spellthief limits the buffs you can steal based off caster level with the highest buffs you can steal are Charisma Modifier+2.
Master Spellthief feat allows you to steal higher level spells not just 0 or 1st level spells with a 1 or 2 level dip into Spellthief.
Remember Spells stolen can fuel a great Gish Feat Arcane Strike, effectively power attack for Gishes that stack with Power Attack.
Sniper Shot (Spell Compedium 1st level is the most recent version) makes your sneak attacks have unlimited ranged for 1 round, and it is a swift action personal buff to cast.


Getting Natural Attacks


This variant Kobold has natural weapons of 2 claws and 1 bite. The Damage is weak but it is extra attacks we can combine with steal spells via Spellthief http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a
There is a totemist soulmeld called Chaos Roc Span that gives you two wing buffet attacks without even doing a chakra bind. It is located in Dragon 350. Reflavor this as your dragon wing attacks.
There are many other totemist chakras binds you can do to get more natural weapons. See here http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?127463-3-X-Extra-attacks-natural-attacks-AoO Some of these stack with the Kobold 2 Claws and 1 Bite and some do not.
You do not have to but most likely you are going to do a 2 level dip into totemist that gives you 3 soulmelds, 2 essentia, and 1 chakra bind including the ability to do a chakra bind on your totem chakra.
Ask your DM if you can use the Dragon Tail Soulmeld located here as a secondary natural weapon. http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=4 By RAW it is not a natural weapon for it does not say it is a natural weapon like most soulmelds but this may be an oversight. Then again some soulmelds are not natural weapons for example Manticore Belt gives you a ranged attack that is not a natural weapon that gets "extra attacks" equal to the amount of essenta in it.
Dragon Tail feat from Races of the Dragon will give you a tail attack if your DM will not allow the soulmeld to work as a secondary natural attack.
The Improved Unarmed Strike Feat, which Monk 1 gives for Free will allow you to make unarmed strikes as your primary natural weapon but with iterative and then you can use all your other natural weapons as secondary natural weapon at -5, or you can take multiattack to lower the penalty to -2, and improved multiattack to make the secondaries have a -0 / no penalty. You can also twf (gloves of the balanced hand from MIC gives you TWF for 8,000 GP) your unarmed strike, and take rapidstrike and improved rapid strike. What I am saying is you got options.
There are all kind of buff spells and feats that can increase the damage of your unarmed strikes such as greater mighty wallop increasing size categories, improved natural attack / fanged ring your unarmed strikes, beast strikes feat from dragon magic+ eldritch claws (if you want one side to have lots of warlock), or beast strike+psionics and claws of the beast and so on.
Regardless the goal is to get natural weapons+unarmed strikes to get lots of attacks, each of these trigger a steal spell effect, which you can in then turn channel into arcane strike or just cast the spell you stolen
The 1st level Spell Blood Wind makes all your unarmed strikes and natural weapons into ranged weapons for 1 round instead of mere melee weapons. It is a swift action to cast and it requires you to use a full round attack action to use these ranged weapons. This spell can be extended to give you a 2 round version with a single swift action. Furthermore the spell is close ranged so you can cast it on yourself or your allies can cast it onto you, or even a familiar with a magic wand who sits on your shoulder can cast it onto you.


So what I just listed Totemist 2/ Master Spellthief 2/X 16

Gives you

2 Claw+1 Bite via Kobold
2 Chaos Roc Wing Buffet Attacks (reflavor as dragon)
Other natural weapons, lets assume Girallion Arms which gives you 2 extra claw attacks (for a total of 4 claw attacks)
That is 7 natural weapons, and if your DM allows Dragon Tail as a Tail Natural Attack that is 8 Natural Weapons. If your DM will not allow Dragon Tail Soulmeld the Dragon Tail Feat gives it to you.

That is 8 sneak attacks within 30 foot range all stealing spells with Blood Wind+Master Spellthief. Plus your normal weapon damage with a weapon in melee range, or if you take IUS, Monk 1, or Fanged Ring you get iterative. Arcane Strike will make these natural weapons actually do real damage which is fueled effectively for free by stealing spells.


Plus you are a Full Sorcerer Arcane Spellcaster


Allowing all the normal arcane goodness but also all the unique dragon spells like wings of cover (OMG so good for both you and your allies), wings of flurry, and so on.

And the build I listed above allows you 16 levels of something else, and it can take very little feat investment or lots of feat investment depending on how much you want to improve your natural weapons. Hell you could go Bard 16+Dragonfire Inspiration+Chaos Music (regain those 4 lost bard levels with bardic music) or you can do something completely else, the whole point of the build I did above is that it is a loose template you can incorporate in many other builds while at the same time giving you the flavor of a miniature kobold who is emulating the soul of a much larger dragon and thus has a much larger dragon natural weapon attack routine.

-----

Now there is nothing wrong with Dragonfire Adepts. Buth the build I listed above can lay down just as much damage as a Dragonfire Adept (for you are using Arcane Strike to buff your natural weapons) at something like 7 to 10 different enemies, or all at the same enemy (stacking a lot of damage.)

Flavor is forever mutable, for example you can pretend you are a dragon but you have an astral "big dragon" overlay on top of your smaller kobold self like "armor."

Or perhaps you can make a body motion when you use blood wind, with a claw, a wing, and so on and you then channel that energy into a miniature breath attack which you then breathe out of your mouth and attack in a very small burst that hits a single creature like you are toothless from How To Train Your Dragon where you do "rapid fire night fury" breath attacks.

And if you want area of effect breath weapons attacks that is what spells are for. Frost Breath (small amount of damage but also includes a daze as a 2nd level slot), Fireball / Scintillating Sphere / Ice Blast, etc. You can also take the feat "Sculpt Spell" to allow you multiple shapes of breath weapon and so on. And due to the MIC item Bracers of Entangling the Blast for 2,000 GP you get a 3 a day Entangling Blast feat that works on your spells instead of your breath weapon.

Yeah, spellthief is a pretty good gestalt. Pairs ok with spellcasters but I feel it's a bit of a waste... Because paired with a full caster, any round you're sneak attacking is a round you're not casting a spell... Which will usually be a better option.

That's why I like the idea of pairing it with warlock. You can sneak attack with the warlock blasts and, in some cases, even steal from multiple people with eldritch chain.


Alternatively, another good pairing with it is a melee brute. A barbarian with a spell storing item and gestalted with a spell thief can really wreck a person's day.

Alternatively, a ranger could pump the field with arrows and steal spell after spell.

[Ramza00]

Yeah, spellthief is a pretty good gestalt. Pairs ok with spellcasters but I feel it's a bit of a waste... Because paired with a full caster, any round you're sneak attacking is a round you're not casting a spell... Which will usually be a better option.

That is the joy but also the simultaneous pain of being a fifth wheel and playing a gish. Spells set up win in encounters by changing the dynamics of the battlefield (the treantmonk god philosophy) increasing the amount of actions your party takes while decreasing the amount of actions your enemies can take, and once this scenario is created you can then "let loose" and play "clean-up" via actually killing the enemies once you set up the advantageous dynamics.

That is why I called this build a "jack of all trades" build, I thought I did not have to say master of none due to idioms :smallsmile:.

But seriously Arcane Strike+Spell Thief+Lots of Natural Weapons+Blood Wind pairs up so well with Gestalt even if you do not do "full spellcaster" and instead do something like Mystic Ranger, Bard, etc to qualify for the 3rd level spells.


Arcane Strike is a free action power attack like effect.
Spell Thief is a free action spell steal and thus you can even use the stolen spells to power the next attack you do in a full attack action.
Natural Weapons are easy to get if you allow totemist, enough feats, and so on. Natural Weapons do not take away from your main attacks via IUS or via weapons they are just free things you get for -5 (or -2 or -1 with Multiattck / Improved Multiattck, but who cares about penalties when you got Arcane Strike.)
Blood Wind takes a swift action which you can cast yourself, or it can be your wizards / clerics swift actions let alone someone like a familiar which has limited ways to contribute to the battle but making a character a ranged death machine and all is possible after a single buff. And since it is a 1st level spell buying (not crafting a wand) is only 750 gp or 15 gp per charge aka pocket change. Oh you can also extended it for only a 2nd level spell slot (or extend meta-magic feat) or just research a 2nd level version.



That's why I like the idea of pairing it with warlock. You can sneak attack with the warlock blasts and, in some cases, even steal from multiple people with eldritch chain.

So lets do some quick offhand math. A Spellthief+Warlock

Eldritch Chain at various levels
Level 1. Two Targets, one must be within 60 feet the other within 30 of first (30 to 90). 1d6. This 1d6 damage can only apply once.
Level 5. Three Targets, one must be within 60 feet the other within 30 of first, repeat x1 (0 to 120 feet) 3d6 damage
Level 10. Four Targets, one must be within 60 feet the other within 30 of first, repeat x2 (-30 to 150 feet) 5d6 damage
Level 15. Five Targets, one must be within 60 feet the other within 30 of first, repeat x3 (-60 to 180 feet) 7d6 damage
Level 20. Six Targets, one must be within 60 feet the other within 30 of first, repeat x4 (-90 to 210 feet) 9d6 damage

Only targets within 30 feet of you get sneak attack damage and thus steal spell effect

A Spellthief+Totemist 2+Blood Wind
Giarllion Arms+Chaos Roc Wings give you 6 natural weapons regardless of race. Thus Six Targets. Attack first with your Chaos Roc Wings to use your nonlethal damage as a sneak attack and then grab a stolen spell to fuel arcane strike
Arcane Strike is available quite easy with ECL 6 in Gestalt. Your BAB is at least +4 in Gestalt via Totemist 2 and Spell Thief 2 and can be as high as +6. Steal a 3rd level spell plus a 1st level spell, or steal 4 1st level spells or a different combination and now Arcane Strike will give you +4d4 damage to every natural attack you have, plus +1 to +3 to your Attack Bonus. 4d4 is 4 to 16 average 10 vs 3d6 is 3 to 18 average 10.5. As soon as you gain another BAB it is 5d4, then 6d4, and so on and do not be suprised you are doing 10 to 18d4 which is more damage than 9d6. Effectively Arcane Strike does the same thing as the Warlock Eldritch Blast but it does it better.

But with a small investment (aka more than Girallon Arms+Chaos Roc Wings like a Kobold race) and you will be doing 7 or 8 natural weapons not 6 and you will also have IUS giving you iterative and thus 10+ weapons that get that 4d4 but eventually 10 to 18d4 Arcane Strike Damage.

Blood Wind makes the default range increment feet so you can attack multiple targets up to 100 feet away, but Far Shot via taking the feat or Horizon Googles (8,000 GP) or Helm of the Hunter part of the Array of the Manticore set (9,000 GP) makes you be able to target people up to 200 feet away. Remember though you can target the same target multiple times with blood wind but you can't do this with Eldritch Chain, and furthermore you can attack one target 200 feet away in front of you, 200 feet to your left, and 200 feet to your right which you can't do with Eldritch Chain they must be much closer together, and you do not get the 200 feet range until level 21 and prior to that lets say level 10 the Blood Wind combo out-distances you in almost all situations.


Alternatively, another good pairing with it is a melee brute. A barbarian with a spell storing item and gestalted with a spell thief can really wreck a person's day.

Alternatively, a ranger could pump the field with arrows and steal spell after spell.

A barbarian+spell thief is stronger than a barbarian by itself but eventually a barbarian has no problems killing a single target, adding spell thief does not really do much more over barbarian.

The nice thing about the build I listed above is that it can take down multiple monsters in 1 full round action (it is damage plus range), it is effectively a shadow pouncer type thing with its ranged weapons at a lower ECL. Now things that stop throw / ranged weapons like wind wall will ruin your day but you can still fallback to spells.

Ranger + Spellthief is a good build, especially mystic ranger and it is making different priorities going for less total damage per round, but can do more of that damage at a greater range. I would love feedback from the OP Lylsyly but if you go Ranger + Spellthief I would think the character is similar to another party member who is Mystic Ranger+Cleric but also some of the other party members.


The rest of the group is (mostly we get to L20):
Barbarian//Fighter (will build a charger)
Cleric//Mystic Ranger (will stick with this throughout)
Wizard//Feat Rogue (will PRC both sides)
Rogue//Warlock (definitely will take assassin prc but I don't know what else)

I am biased against the build I made (for I made it after all) but one nice thing about doing Sorcerer on the other side and spending some levels but not all your levels on Totemist+Spell Thief is you can do the damage much like the Barbarian / Fighter Charger and the Rogue / Warlock sneak attacker but you can also be a person who lays down spells for the first few rounds of combat like the Cleric / Mystic Ranger and Wizard / Feat Rogue and then swap out to help "clean up" on Aisle 4 once the ideal battle conditions are set.

[Nifft]

Talked her out of this. Makes things much easier, esp. since we play once a class skill always a class skill Okay cool. That means Mindbender is practically free, and you can qualify for stuff immediately after that.


The rest of the group is (mostly we get to L20):
Barbarian//Fighter (will build a charger)
Cleric//Mystic Ranger (will stick with this throughout)
Wizard//Feat Rogue (will PRC both sides)
Rogue//Warlock (definitely will take assassin prc but I don't know what else)

And then there is me with my DFA 20//some kinda spontaneous arcane caster. I am considering a a sorcerer based build, a bard-sublime chord build, and a fochulan lyrist or arcane heirophant type build (there are some really good spells on the druid list). If I do go with the latter two I will be using the Totem Druid from Drag mag 335 (I know it will be approved).

EDIT: Almost forgot - She opened up Warlock Invocations for me. YAY!!

Ooo nice. Warlock Invocations include stuff like Flee the Scene which is probably better than anything else you could pick at level 6... though the Cityscape invocation Devil's Whispers is also great.


So, as a DFA // Sorc, with that skill fix above, you can do stuff like...

- Dracolexi 10, gives special powers from Draconic words, reduces the level of Power Word spells (so you can cast Power Word: Pain as a level 0 cantrip, for example). You need Perform ranks so you probably want Draconic Heritage (Battle dragon) from RotDr. Every time you lower the level of a Power Word spell, you get a bonus spell known. You also get some bonus [Language-Dependent] spells from the Sorcerer list -- a total of 6 extra spells known, and 4 spells lowered in level. You can learn a word that gives free temporary HP, with the limit of one use per target per day. That's fantastic if you've got a summoner friend or necromancer friend.

- Taking the Perform skill further, you could spend some feats to get Heartfire Fanner 5 (from Dragon Magazine), and that's actually pretty good for your party since you've got no Bard. Because the damage type associated with Battle dragons is Sonic, your Dragonfire Inspiration would be remarkably effective. Unfortunate that you can't get Dracolexi 10 / Hearfire Fanner 5 / Mindbender 1 without early entry shenanigans.

- Sand Shaper 9 gets you 43 new spells, some of which are actually worth having (but most of which are not). You also get to shape sand into gear or creatures that serve you, which can be useful. Costs a caster level, which you get back because you're a Kobold.

- Dragon Mystic (from Dragon Magazine) is a full-casting 5 level Sorcerer-dragon class which gives you perks based on your age category and your breath weapon type. Since you're Dragonwrought and a DFA, you probably qualify. The most interesting feature is that you add half your age category to the save DCs of Enchantment spells and energy spells that match your breath weapon. That's a +6 bonus in your case, with another +1 from the bonus to Charisma.

[lylsyly]

"I would love feedback from the OP Lylsyly"

Neither of you are wrong and you both have some good ideas but ...

1. I Like DFA, and with warlock invocations open to me it only gets better (plus I already know how to squeeze every last drop out of it). DFA also ensures that the two important saves are covered.

2. With Endure Exposure on the Charger and Sneak Attacker and the Entangling Exhalation feat I can do a fair job of BFC, add Sorcerer either straight up or combined with Druid casting say via Arcane Heirophant I can really do BFC. I know that BFC is a thankless job but someone has to do it ;)

Barb/Fighter has DPR and Meat Shield when needed sewn up.
The Wiz/Feat Rogue has the Face/primary arcane caster fulfilled.
Cleric/Mystic Ranger for an Archer/Caster/Healbot/Extra Melee
Rogue/Warlock for Sneak Attack and the trap stuff

Leaves BFC to me and fill in otherwise has needed. I considered probably every good basic gestalt combo. Once Nifft said DFA I was Sold since I adore the class anyway. Now I just have to make up my mind on the other side. Could run Sorcerer/Mindbender/Sandshaper blah blah yada yada. Could go for more of a gish on the Sorc side. Could do the Bard/Chord/Abj Champ, The Fochulan Lyrist or Arcane Hierophant, haven't made up my mind.

[Ramza00]

Any chance your DM will allow the multi-headed template on one side of your gestalt?

[Nifft]

"I would love feedback from the OP Lylsyly"

Neither of you are wrong and you both have some good ideas but ...

1. I Like DFA, and with warlock invocations open to me it only gets better (plus I already know how to squeeze every last drop out of it). DFA also ensures that the two important saves are covered.

2. With Endure Exposure on the Charger and Sneak Attacker and the Entangling Exhalation feat I can do a fair job of BFC, add Sorcerer either straight up or combined with Druid casting say via Arcane Heirophant I can really do BFC. I know that BFC is a thankless job but someone has to do it ;)

Barb/Fighter has DPR and Meat Shield when needed sewn up.
The Wiz/Feat Rogue has the Face/primary arcane caster fulfilled.
Cleric/Mystic Ranger for an Archer/Caster/Healbot/Extra Melee
Rogue/Warlock for Sneak Attack and the trap stuff

Leaves BFC to me and fill in otherwise has needed. I considered probably every good basic gestalt combo. Once Nifft said DFA I was Sold since I adore the class anyway. Now I just have to make up my mind on the other side. Could run Sorcerer/Mindbender/Sandshaper blah blah yada yada. Could go for more of a gish on the Sorc side. Could do the Bard/Chord/Abj Champ, The Fochulan Lyrist or Arcane Hierophant, haven't made up my mind.

Totem Druid seems a lot more tempting for humanoids who lack wings. You're already a Dragon, so why reduce yourself into the form of a bear or a bird or whatever?

The WIZARD is going to be the face? Hmm. You can get Beguiling Influence (+6 untyped), the Friendly Face spell (+5 circumstance), and the Mask of the Ideal spell (+4 competence) for +15 on top of your Charisma bonus and your skill ranks -- using only 1st & 2nd level spells. Once you get level 4 spells, you can pick up Voice of the Dragon for another +10 (enhancement) for +25 +Cha +ranks. Those three spells are all 10 min/level so you can get through a lot of social encounters with them running.

The Wizard could use those 3 spells too, but you have the advantage of the +6 Invocation, and presumably having a much higher Charisma bonus.


If you're going for BFC, then perhaps Sand Shaper is not a good fit.

Dracolexi gets you good single-target spells (Power Word and suggestion and so forth), but those are not BFC.

Escalation Mage (Faiths of Eberron) might be a good fit. You get free Metamagic effects which don't increase casting time, including Quicken which is normally difficult for a Sorcerer.

Earth Dreamer is good for visibility and mobility, covering terrain types where wings don't thrive (i.e. solid rock).

The best option might be Shadowcraft Mage, if your DM allows your non-gnome PC to get in.

[lylsyly]

Okay cool. That means Mindbender is practically free, and you can qualify for stuff immediately after that.



Ooo nice. Warlock Invocations include stuff like Flee the Scene which is probably better than anything else you could pick at level 6... though the Cityscape invocation Devil's Whispers is also great.


So, as a DFA // Sorc, with that skill fix above, you can do stuff like...

- Dracolexi 10, gives special powers from Draconic words, reduces the level of Power Word spells (so you can cast Power Word: Pain as a level 0 cantrip, for example). You need Perform ranks so you probably want Draconic Heritage (Battle dragon) from RotDr. Every time you lower the level of a Power Word spell, you get a bonus spell known. You also get some bonus [Language-Dependent] spells from the Sorcerer list -- a total of 6 extra spells known, and 4 spells lowered in level. You can learn a word that gives free temporary HP, with the limit of one use per target per day. That's fantastic if you've got a summoner friend or necromancer friend.

- Taking the Perform skill further, you could spend some feats to get Heartfire Fanner 5 (from Dragon Magazine), and that's actually pretty good for your party since you've got no Bard. Because the damage type associated with Battle dragons is Sonic, your Dragonfire Inspiration would be remarkably effective. Unfortunate that you can't get Dracolexi 10 / Hearfire Fanner 5 / Mindbender 1 without early entry shenanigans.

- Sand Shaper 9 gets you 43 new spells, some of which are actually worth having (but most of which are not). You also get to shape sand into gear or creatures that serve you, which can be useful. Costs a caster level, which you get back because you're a Kobold.

- Dragon Mystic (from Dragon Magazine) is a full-casting 5 level Sorcerer-dragon class which gives you perks based on your age category and your breath weapon type. Since you're Dragonwrought and a DFA, you probably qualify. The most interesting feature is that you add half your age category to the save DCs of Enchantment spells and energy spells that match your breath weapon. That's a +6 bonus in your case, with another +1 from the bonus to Charisma.

I haven't looked at Dracolexi in a long time. Know off the top of your head what issue Dragon Mystic is in? My copy of the index is about 250 miles away right now and I am running off of my phone.

[Nifft]

I haven't looked at Dracolexi in a long time. Know off the top of your head what issue Dragon Mystic is in? My copy of the index is about 250 miles away right now and I am running off of my phone.

According to my search engine (http://realmshelps.net/charbuild/classes/prestige/Dragon_Mystic), it's Dragon #296.

You qualify when you can cast 3rd level spells, which is right after Sorc 5 / Mindbender 1 (assuming you go that route).

[liquidformat]

I throw my hat in for one of the following on the other side of the build:
bard4/paladin2/Dread witch5
bard4/battle dancer1/Dread witch5
bard4/paladin2/battle dancer1/Dread witch5

Adding cha to saves and/or ac is a great idea and stacking fear can be very nice for bfc. You can also take Frightful Presence + awaken Frightful presence to have a 45' radius fear aura with DC 10 + 1/2HD+Cha mod+2 to enhance that shtick. Snow flake wardance or dragonfire snpiration are also nice to have on the bard side, and be sure to grab melodic casting to further focus your skills.

[lylsyly]

Any chance your DM will allow the multi-headed template on one side of your gestalt?

Yes, but I would have to buy the CR + off as if it were LA, not too onerous the way we do LA buyoff but still ...

[lylsyly]

According to my search engine (http://realmshelps.net/charbuild/classes/prestige/Dragon_Mystic), it's Dragon #296.

You qualify when you can cast 3rd level spells, which is right after Sorc 5 / Mindbender 1 (assuming you go that route).

Draconic Heritage: Battle Dragon is in. I even get to have the 3 extra spells known without taking that feat.

Dracolexi and Dragon Mystic are definitely in. Which means I am going the Sorcerer route.

Been talking to the gang on speakerphone. DM says he'll let me take 3.0 version of Energy Substitution and let it apply to spells and my breath weapons (he usually isn't this loose, and I do mean loose, he's even not going to take my Venerable stat bonuses away from me when I do Dragonborn, guess he playing it loose because it's gestalt), YAY!!! (I am waiting for the shoe to drop, what he as been allowing the other players is inline with what he has been allowing me. Probably gonna bust our chops in game but it's all good).

Being able to use Sonic changes my mind about the BFC too. Ima gonna play blaster (something I usually don't do so it's good to stretch my wings a bit).

Gonna take me a bit of LA too, everyone else his (Barb//Fghtr going with Half Ogre, Wiz//F. Rog going with Chaos Dwarf (???), rog//lock playing Draconic Teifling (I like this one), and the Clc//M Rang is going with a killoren woodling.

I can do up LA+3 without it being too bad. Possibilities include one of the Half Elementals, Radiant Creature, maybe even spell warped. I am leaning towards Radiant Creature though Seems like more bang for my buck as it were.

Sorry, Multiheaded ain't gonna fly.

[Nifft]

Tag on a spell like Blinding Breath (level 3) or Dispelling Breath (level 4) and you're debuffing while you blast.

In terms of a template, hmm. You don't want to change your type -- you're already a Dragon after all, and that's the best type.

Radiant Creature gives you fast healing 2, but you could get the same thing from Shadow Creature (plus invisibility outside of direct sunlight).

The various Arch-Dragon templates (Dr.#321) give telepathy 100 ft., saving you a level of Mindbender, but they seem to be LA +4.

Woodling (MM3) gives a ton of plant immunities, but doesn't turn you into a plant, which is nice. It's LA +3 exactly.

Fire-Souled (Dr.#314) gives +4 Cha, two really good immunities (Stun & Daze), free Leadership, plus other perks like a morale bonus to nearby allies because you're just so inspiring. It's only LA +1. Being immune to Daze is really nice since spells like Celerity exist, also Born of the Three Thunders usually imposes Daze but you can just ignore that.


Heh, you could be a Fire-Souled Shadow-Creature and be like the anti-balrog, since you bring joy & morale bonuses & thunder while you burn unseen in the darkness.

[lylsyly]

Reasons to take Radiant Creature (I thought about Fire-souled and Saint but I aint Wis based

Becomes an Outsider (native, augmented Dragon)
Alignment is one step closer to Chaotic, So Chaotic good instead of Neutral Good
–8 penalty on Hide checks Who cares
+4 bonus on Spot checks Who cares


Fast Healing 2 (as long as there is light) Helps but not great


Dex +4 Ima squishy need the boost to AC
Cha +6 Ima Sorcerer, LOL


Creatures within 30’ that look at the Radiant creature are Dazzled for 1d6 rounds (WillNeg, DC is Charisma-based). Meh, doesn't even say it can be turned off like half nymph


Immune to becoming Blind, Dazed, Dazzled, & Stunned.


HD Damage Reduction
up to 11 5 / magic
12+ 10 / magic I'll take it, I am squishy better than fast healing 2 IMHO


HD Ability
1-2 Color Spray, 3/day
3-4 Blur, 3/day
5-6 Mirror Image
7-8 Searing Light
9-10 Freedom of Movement 11-12 Rainbow Pattern13-14 Prismatic Spray15-16 Repulsion17-18 Scintillating Pattern
19+Prismatic Sphere Every little bit helps

Besides, I think it fits the battle dragon thing.

Did the die rolls, not great since we use 2d4+10 but 12,13,13,14,14,18.

So I am looking at Sorc 5/Dracolexi 10/Dragon Mystic 5EDIT: make that Sorc 6/Dragon Mystic 5/Dracolexi 9. I want the CHA bonuses and Metamagic thingy early rather than later.

[Nifft]

Reasons to take Radiant Creature (I thought about Fire-souled and Saint but I aint Wis based

Becomes an Outsider (native, augmented Dragon) B-but you were a Dragon, isn't that better?


Dex +4 Ima squishy need the boost to AC
Cha +6 Ima Sorcerer, LOL

Immune to becoming Blind, Dazed, Dazzled, & Stunned. Okay, yeah, this is good stuff. Being immune to Dazing and Stun are totally worth being unable to hide, and the +4 Dex / +6 Cha is a bit better than the +4 Cha you'd get from Fire-Souled.

Blinding Breath is now even more appropriate.


So I am looking at Sorc 5/Dracolexi 10/Dragon Mystic 5 Nice, but... can you even be a Dragon Mystic, since you're now an Outsider instead of a Dragon?

I guess if your DM approves then it doesn't matter about technicalities. :)

[lylsyly]

"I guess if your DM approves then it doesn't matter about technicalities. :)"

Yep. When I pointed out the Augmented XXX he said "I guess you are still a Dragon, LOL". As I said above, DM is being REAL permissive this time around. I edited the above, going for Dragon Mystic first so I can get the CHA bumps and the metamagic so Sorc 6/Dragon mystic 5/ Dracolexi 9 and I am done with the classes, may change a level or two IF i can get an extra standard action out of it.

Need to concentrate on the feats and squeezing in what I want to do. Fortunately I really only need one for the DFA side (Entangling Exhalation) although I will peruse the other breath feats. Draconic Heritage: Battle Dragon is a must, Energy Substitution is a must have so given my two flaws starting feats are taken care of. Have to take either Eschew or Still spell at 3 or 6 (although I may take improved flight at 6). I am going to look at bloodline feats too, maybe drop Energy Substitution back to level 3. After that is all about improving damage from my spells so ...

After I applied all the racial, age and template mods I will have CHA 30 at lvl 20 and thats before items. Shame to let the CHA go to waste by not playing face but he never does it and wants to stretch his wings so ...

Next time we start a game I am going to stretch my wings by playing some kind of fear build. I was thinking it this time until the DM said I could have ALL my energy type damage be Sonic, it's just too good to pass up. Gotta love a permissive DM even if they usually aren't.

[Nifft]

I edited the above, going for Dragon Mystic first so I can get the CHA bumps and the metamagic so Sorc 6/Dragon mystic 5/ Dracolexi 9 and I am done with the classes, may change a level or two IF i can get an extra standard action out of it.

I think you could do Sorcerer 1-5 / Dracolexi 1 / (Greater Rite of Draconic Passage -> level 6 casting at 6 HD) / Dragon Mystic 1-5 / Dracolexi 2-10

... and end up Sorc 5 / Dragon Mystic 5 / Dracolexi 10 (which is better because you get a 4th Draconic Word instead of Sorc 6 which gives you nothing).

In terms of extra actions, you can use Celerity without paying the usual daze penalty. That's nasty.



With Cha 30 and maybe some spells, you could help in social situations with Aid Another to give the face guy a +2 bonus... and you might be able to subtly help the player to RP being a face, at the same time.


Hmm, now that you're an Outsider, you can alter self into Outsider forms... it looks like the Wyrmlings are faster, but there are some decent Outsiders too.


Moving on, feats...

For a Sonic build, just gotta reiterate the Born of the Three Thunders feat, especially since you're immune to the usual downside (get dazed).

Clap of Thunder is a reasonable [Reserve] feat, if you want a melee attack, but your breath weapon works fine at melee range so you don't really need any melee attacks. In fact you probably don't need any [Reserve] feats.

Flyby Attack allows you to take a standard action in the middle of a move, so it's great for a spellcaster or (Su) breath user. Pick it up some time after your Dragonborn wings give you real flight. It's not technically an extra action, but being able to move-cast-move is effectively an extra Move action.

[lylsyly]

I think you could do Sorcerer 1-5 / Dracolexi 1 / (Greater Rite of Draconic Passage -> level 6 casting at 6 HD) / Dragon Mystic 1-5 / Dracolexi 2-10

I plan on it, just shortcutted the post



In terms of extra actions, you can use Celerity without paying the usual daze penalty. That's nasty.

good point


With Cha 30 and maybe some spells, you could help in social situations with Aid Another to give the face guy a +2 bonus... and you might be able to subtly help the player to RP being a face, at the same time.

I already had this discussion with him. He has never played a face, i usually fulfill that role has I usually play bard types.



Hmm, now that you're an Outsider, you can alter self into Outsider forms... it looks like the Wyrmlings are faster, but there are some decent Outsiders too.

Don't forget, I am also an Augmented Dragon ;D, I wonder if he understands what letting me keep both types means, rofl.



Moving on, feats...

For a Sonic build, just gotta reiterate the Born of the Three Thunders feat, especially since you're immune to the usual downside (get dazed).

Clap of Thunder is a reasonable [Reserve] feat, if you want a melee attack, but your breath weapon works fine at melee range so you don't really need any melee attacks. In fact you probably don't need any [Reserve] feats.

Flyby Attack allows you to take a standard action in the middle of a move, so it's great for a spellcaster or (Su) breath user. Pick it up some time after your Dragonborn wings give you real flight. It's not technically an extra action, but being able to move-cast-move is effectively an extra Move action.

Born of three thunders is a yes, I just love stunning ;)
Flyby Attack would be nice if I can squeeze it in.

Which begs the question of if Great Flyby Attack would work with my breath weapon, IIRC it only works with melee attacks.

Entangling Exhalation, Draconic Heritage, and Energy Substitution at lvl 1, Bo3Thunders at 3, I have to take either Eschew or Still at 6, Flyby 9, 12, 15, 18 probably metamagic since to use the DraMystic capstone I actually have to know the feats.

[Nifft]

Entangling Exhalation, Draconic Heritage, and Energy Substitution at lvl 1, Bo3Thunders at 3, I have to take either Eschew or Still at 6, Flyby 9, 12, 15, 18 probably metamagic since to use the DraMystic capstone I actually have to know the feats.

As a Dragonblood, you should take the Dragonblood Sorcerer ACF at level 1 so you get Draconic Heritage for free... well, instead of a Familiar, but that's basically free.

Also you need the Draconic Reservoir feat at level 3 or 6 to qualify for the Rite of Greater Draconic Passage.

So your feats might look like:

(L1) Entangling Exhalation
(flaw) Energy Substitution: Sonic [Metamagic]
(flaw) Eschew Material
(Sorc ACF) Draconic Heritage: Battle Dragon
(free from DFA) Dragontouched
(free from DM) Dragonwrought

(L3) Draconic Reservoir

(L6) Born of the Three Thunders [Metamagic] <-- use this with the Dragon Mystic capstone

(L9) Energy Admixture: Sonic [Metamagic] <-- also use this with the Dragon Mystic capstone

(L12) Flyby Attack

(L15) ___

(L18) ___

[lylsyly]

From Dragon #296, page 43. "Metamagic Breath Weapon (Su): The dragon mystic can apply to his breath weapon the effect of one of the following metamagic feats that he knows: Empower Spell, Enlarge Spell, Maximize Spell, or Quicken Spell"

I really want Quicken so I can help my action economy.

"Add the normal spell level adjustment to the 1d4 roll to determine when the dragon can breathe again. For example, a dragon mystic who enlarges his breath weapon would roll 1d4 to determine when he could breathe again, but would roll 1d4+4 to determine when he could breathe again if he had quickened his breath weapon. The dragon mystic can't apply the effects of a metamagic feat that he doesn't know. The dragon mystic may use this ability a number of times per day equal to his Charisma modifier or his age category (whichever is higher) If the dragon mystic has more than one breath weapon, the limit applies to total breaths (not separately to each breath weapon). If the dragon mystic has no breath weapon, this ability has no effect."

Can't use it with spells that way. Can't use it with the DFA breath weapon either, at least by the time I get it the Dragonborn Breath Weapon will be of long enough range to be of use. I could Actually drop that level all together without it hurting the build any.

[Nifft]

Oh, right, you can't use BotTT nor Admixture with the breath weapon. Unfortunate.

Welp, push Admixture to higher levels and take Quicken at level 9, which is 1 or 2 levels before you get the metamagic BW effect. Or take Quicken at level 12, right after you get the effect.

[lylsyly]

Yeah, It's all good.

I did not intend to get this deep into it. I may have to work a bit not to overshadow everyone else. We really don't optimize much, I do more than anyone and I don't do much. Might be different if I could remember s**t.

I appreciate your help Nifft. I think this dish is cooked.