Divine Soul Sorceror - too good or just right?

[Boci]

So if I understand things correctly, the following two statements are true:

1. The sorceror is the least power (and perhaps exciting, though that is less objectivly measurable) in the Player's Handbook now that the ranger got revised in Unearthed Arcane.

2. The Divine Soul is mechanically superior to other Sorceror Origins.

Now, firstly are those two assumptions true in your opinion? If so, at a table where the principle of balance is important, should other origins be improved to match Divine Soul?

Followup question: If you had a player who had chosen not to take Divine Soul as they felt it was too powerful, and now feels a little let down by their dragon sorceror, would you give them something to boost their character? I am already ignoring the eratta that scorching ray doesn't get cha to damage on all three rays, but that doesn't feel like too much.

[ImproperJustice]

I play a Dragon Sorceror currently and have zero problems with the enjoyment of my character.
Turns out dealing the highest “DPS per proc” has little to do with fun when playing :)

This thread feels very out of place and a little “Nameless Kingish” if other forumites get my drift.

[Unoriginal]

So if I understand things correctly, the following two statements are true:

1. The sorceror is the least power (and perhaps exciting, though that is less objectivly measurable) in the Player's Handbook now that the ranger got revised in Unearthed Arcane.

2. The Divine Soul is mechanically superior to other Sorceror Origins.

Now, firstly are those two assumptions true in your opinion? If so, at a table where the principle of balance is important, should other origins be improved to match Divine Soul?


The first assumption is untrue.

I've not calculated what the Divine Soul's features brought to the table in detail, but I don't see anything that make them "too powerful" or more powerful than the other options.



Followup question: If you had a player who had chosen not to take Divine Soul as they felt it was too powerful, and now feels a little let down by their dragon sorceror, would you give them something to boost their character?

Are you sure the issue is with the power level of the character?



I am already ignoring the eratta that scorching ray doesn't get cha to damage on all three rays, but that doesn't feel like too much.

Why? The Dragon Sorcerer is fine as it is, and the errata is part of that.

[Quoxis]

This thread feels very out of place and a little “Nameless Kingish” if other forumites get my drift.

No jpegs, acceptable english, spelling sorcerer wrong and claiming that all other classes are superior to the (non-divine) sorcerer? No way man, this is about the opposite of a nameless king post.

[Boci]

Are you sure the issue is with the power level of the character?

Its not neccissarily a power issue, but it is a mechanical issue. They seemed to like the backstory we worked out together to explain how they became a draconic sorceror and the other fluff aspects.


Why? The Dragon Sorcerer is fine as it is, and the errata is part of that.

It seemed unneccessary. I didn't read the eratta until after the first session, in which they had already used scorching ray and added char mod to all three rays and it didn't seem too powerful.

[Theodoxus]

From my experience, Divine Soul has more choices, but still stuck with the same limited spells known and action economy. You'd probably get more mileage out of adding a single level of Life Cleric (probably @ 2nd level, to keep the Con save proficiency) and going Shadow or Storm sorcerer (if you didn't want to double down on the AC boon or deal with the Wand of Wonder Mage problems).

Gaining 3 more cantrips (Guidance, Mending and Thaumaturgy, for nice utility that's not dependant on a high Wis) and 4 spells (with 13 Wis, Bless and Cure Wounds being free - and Bless also not caring about a high Wis score); heavy armor proficiency, and a boon on healing spells (to suppliment your low Wis), it's arguably better than going Divine Soul.

Basically, you're ending up either a heal bot, grabbing all the good healing spells and support like a Cleric anyway, or you're spreading yourself so thin that you become nigh useless, trying to be both DPR and Heals.

I'm not overly fond of sorcerer regardless of bloodline. I find it truly dull, and sorry, no, the metamagic doesn't "make it more versatile". You become a one trick pony as much as any EB boosting warlock. Granting cleric spells on top of sorc spells doesn't make it too good - it makes it schizophrenic.

No thanks!

[Boci]

I'm not overly fond of sorcerer regardless of bloodline. I find it truly dull, and sorry, no, the metamagic doesn't "make it more versatile". You become a one trick pony as much as any EB boosting warlock. Granting cleric spells on top of sorc spells doesn't make it too good - it makes it schizophrenic.

No thanks!

So, assuming a character is already established as a draconic sorceror, but is feeling a bit let down by the class similar to how you described, what do you think would be the best way to help them? More spells known? They're level 8 currently, so maybe three extra spells, at level 1, 2 and 3, with an extra 4th at level 9?

[Merudo]

2. The Divine Soul is mechanically superior to other Sorceror Origins.


Have you considered the Shadow Magic origin? It's quite powerful, and perhaps stronger than the Divine Soul.

It gets the Drow Darkvision + a Darkness/Devil's Sight combo + an improved Heightened metamagic at level 6.

[Specter]

None of the core assumptions are true. The second is especially not true because grabbing cleric spells doesn't solve Sorc's biggest problem: lack of spells known.

Every cleric spell you grab costs another arcane spell you need. Are you taking Bless or Mage Armor? Spirit Guardians or Haste? Greater Restoration or Animate Objects? With 15 spells known, there will always be holes in your spell selection, especially juggling it between two lists.

[Boci]

Have you considered the Shadow origin? It's quite powerful, and perhaps stronger than the Divine Soul.

I'm actually making a shadow sorceror for a game of my own, but for the one I started this thread for, I'm the DM. Shadow sorceror won't help here though, the player is a draconic sorceror, and if they were to remake it, they would likely choose another class all together.

[Merudo]

I'm actually making a shadow sorceror for a game of my own, but for the one I started this thread for, I'm the DM. Shadow sorceror won't help here though, the player is a draconic sorceror, and if they were to remake it, they would likely choose another class all together.

In my opinion, the Sorcerer is the hardest class to play well.

It's so easy to pick a "wrong" origin, "wrong" metamagics, or "wrong" spells, and be stuck with an ineffective character.

IMO to be newbie friendly, the Sorcerer should get access to a handful more spells known, together with the option to swap metamagics at level up.

[Boci]

In my opinion, the Sorcerer is the hardest class to play well.

It's so easy to pick a "wrong" origin, "wrong" metamagics, or "wrong" spells, and be stuck with an ineffective character.

IMO to be newbie friendly, the Sorcerer should get access to a handful more spells known, together with the option to swap metamagics at level up.

They're level 8 currently, so maybe three extra spells, at level 1, 2 and 3, with an extra 4th at level 9?

[NecessaryWeevil]

I don't feel that the Divine Soul outshines the other origins. I chose one for my most recent character, but that was because I wanted to heal and support, and wanted a different way to do that than simly playing a cleric.

That said, given that you're the DM, the only really important question is, "will upgrading this player's character cause him to outshine, or appear to outshine, the other PCs?"

[Theodoxus]

They're level 8 currently, so maybe three extra spells, at level 1, 2 and 3, with an extra 4th at level 9?

That could work, though I think if you're willing to modify the class already, why not work with the core issue.

What was the reason the player chose the draconic origin? Are they playing up to the dragon side? Are they picking every elemental spell that deals that dragons type? Are you fluffing their other spells to enhance that aspect?

Without knowing the answers to those questions, I can only pose a blanket solution, but maybe it will help. Presuming they are playing up the dragon aspect, here's what I'd do:

Allow them to pick spells outside of their normal damage type, and permanently swap the damage type for those spells. So, if they're Black dragon, allow them to grab Fireball, but now it's Acidball, dealing the same amount of damage, still a dex save, still a 20' radius spread effect - just acid instead of fire damage. Same if they were a bronze dragon, just lightning instead. That's the easiest 'fix' that lets them get otherwise iconic spells they normally would avoid. "I'm a silver dragon, I'd never touch fireball!" Well, now you're throwing snowballs, congrats! - Now, definitely want this to be a permanent change, granting Elemental Substitution on a whim (even if it costs sorcery points) is beyond OP - now you're letting them find monster weaknesses and exploiting it...

[Merudo]

Allow them to pick spells outside of their normal damage type, and permanently swap the damage type for those spells. So, if they're Black dragon, allow them to grab Fireball, but now it's Acidball, dealing the same amount of damage, still a dex save, still a 20' radius spread effect - just acid instead of fire damage. Same if they were a bronze dragon, just lightning instead.

There is a slight power balance issue here, in that Fire tend to both have the most damaging spells and be the most resisted element.

That makes "Acidball" a much better spell than Fireball.

[Theodoxus]

Unless you're fighting slimes... or black dragons... or...

It's still an opportunity cost, because of limited spells known. It's not something I'd incorporate into the base rules - but a one-off, where a guy is feeling the limitations of the class and the DM is willing to help out, I see no problem with it.

[Boci]

That said, given that you're the DM, the only really important question is, "will upgrading this player's character cause him to outshine, or appear to outshine, the other PCs?"

That's a difficult question to answer, but I don't think so. Extra spells technically don't make the character any more powerful. Hmmm....a bit inorganic, but I might say the spells have to be standard action or longer, just so their actions per round isn't changing.


That could work, though I think if you're willing to modify the class already, why not work with the core issue.

What was the reason the player chose the draconic origin? Are they playing up to the dragon side? Are they picking every elemental spell that deals that dragons type? Are you fluffing their other spells to enhance that aspect?

Not really. They're taken a good number of fire spells (firebolt, bonefire, sorching ray,fireball) but also shield, haste, blink, and that, cold cantrip that also gives disadvantage on attack if you fail a constiution save.

[Aaron Underhand]

I suspect the problem is the plyer, not the class.

The solution might be to allow access to scrolls, to give more range to the character but allowing you to keep control of the total and the supply.

Or you could suggest to the player that he take Ritual casting (Wizard) for more utility

[Beechgnome]

One thing I have done for sorcerers is use a free feat at first level to take Magic Initiate and then take Sorcerer. So one extra 1st level spell that way.

Divine Soul gets an extra spell at first so does Shadow (at 3rd), so both those domains now have a little bit more versatility with spell choices.

Now you're at 6 instead of 4 spells at 3rd, 8 at 5th etc etc).

If you choose, you could give Draconic Dragon's breath at 3rd and give Wild Mages Chaos Bolt at 1st to balance those out. But I don't think you need to do much more than that.

If you wanted to bend the rules, you could let a character take magic initiate and another class and have it apply as a sorcerer spell or spells. Draconic (Black) sorcerers thematically work great with Druids so they could take the primal savagery (acid damage) cantrip and Entangle as their spell.

[sophontteks]

Sorcerers are massively underrated by the community at large because people struggle to optimize their limited spell list. But they work as intended. What spells they can cast are far stronger then those cast by other casters. I personally rate sorcerers very highly.

[MaxWilson]

So if I understand things correctly, the following two statements are true:

1. The sorceror is the least power (and perhaps exciting, though that is less objectivly measurable) in the Player's Handbook now that the ranger got revised in Unearthed Arcane.

2. The Divine Soul is mechanically superior to other Sorceror Origins.

Now, firstly are those two assumptions true in your opinion? If so, at a table where the principle of balance is important, should other origins be improved to match Divine Soul?

Followup question: If you had a player who had chosen not to take Divine Soul as they felt it was too powerful, and now feels a little let down by their dragon sorceror, would you give them something to boost their character? I am already ignoring the eratta that scorching ray doesn't get cha to damage on all three rays, but that doesn't feel like too much.

I somewhat agree with #2. The cleric spell list isn't all that great in the first place, but it does have some gems; going Divine Soul lets you pick the best of these (Bless, Death Ward, Revivify) while still getting metamagic and remaining Charisma-dependent (combines well with sorlock shenanigans while remaining SAD). If I'm looking at a complex multiclass (Shepherd Druid/Sorcerer/Warlock), it's probably more likely than not that Divine Soul is going to be my best option for the cleric component; and if I'm trying to fill a role in a party that requires full healing, Moon or Shepherd Druid, Bard, and Divine Soul are all top options for me. (That's partly because I hate clerics though.)

So there certainly are niches where Divine Soul is the best kind of sorcerer. Do those dominate other niches? I'm not so sure about that. But I do think Divine Soul is the one sorcerer subclass whose high-level spell list I am completely happy with. I could play a Warlock 2/Divine Soul 18 with absolutely zero regrets about being a sorcerer. I don't think that's true of any other sorcerer subclass, and that says something.

[ImproperJustice]

Sorcerers are massively underrated by the community at large because people struggle to optimize their limited spell list. But they work as intended. What spells they can cast are far stronger then those cast by other casters. I personally rate sorcerers very highly.

This!
Having run one recently, in a group of other full casters.
No one questions their ability when you start Twin Spelling, or using subtle spell to cast from an underwater grapple, or turning a 21pt fireball into a 38pt fireball thanks to empower spell.

It can be hard to wrap your head around but there is an advantage to “on demand” slot restoration if your GM is hardcore about rest restrictions.

Sorceror works great as is, it’s just misunderstood

[Beechgnome]

Sorcerers are massively underrated by the community at large because people struggle to optimize their limited spell list. But they work as intended. What spells they can cast are far stronger then those cast by other casters. I personally rate sorcerers very highly.

I agree, but having played a few, I used to always wish they had just one or two extra spells known. playing human Divine Soul/Shadow with magic initiate help immensely.

[MeeposFire]

Its not neccissarily a power issue, but it is a mechanical issue. They seemed to like the backstory we worked out together to explain how they became a draconic sorceror and the other fluff aspects.



It seemed unneccessary. I didn't read the eratta until after the first session, in which they had already used scorching ray and added char mod to all three rays and it didn't seem too powerful.

Well to be fair to that errata the written rule on the original sorc was not the same as agonizing blast yet at the time it was common for many of us to assume that all of the damage boosts to spells applied in the same way even though they all did not have the rules description. In fact before before that errata came out I remember specifically in a thread here mentioning that the written rule of the original 5e PHB could be read as being only once per spell period but I also said at the time that I did not know whether that was intended to be read so strictly (as it turns out yes you were) or if the more common view that despite different descriptions they all were meant to say essentially the same thing (which would allow the cha bonus to all hits with scorching ray which later was seen not to be the case). The errata was then more of a way to make it less ambiguous. Evokers have a similar issue where tehir feature is also worded differently than draconic sorc and agonizing blast and it works slightly differently than those as well as a result.

As for the sorc itself I find it to be overall very solid but it is easy to screw up relative to most other classes (in fact it might be the only class that you may end up being not as fun as it could be even if you follow the basic build advice in the PHB).

I do have one thing I do add to my sorcs but it is more for fun than power. I create a special list of thematic bonus spells that each bloodline gets for free. This allows for every sorc to have a fun thematic list and then they can use their precious spells known to pick up spells outside their theme to customize their fun. Currently sorc may have to choose to fit their theme and pick effective spells outside of it and my rule works around that problem to an extent.

Your palyer's dragon sorc would automatically get a number of fire spells due to theme and then they could use their 15 spells known to pick some effective and fun spells outside that and that puts their spells known closer to what a bard gets (with less breadth). It is also a good way to add a few spells that fit the theme but are not on the sorc list if it is needed.

[Cybren]

In my opinion, the Sorcerer is the hardest class to play well.

It's so easy to pick a "wrong" origin, "wrong" metamagics, or "wrong" spells, and be stuck with an ineffective character.

IMO to be newbie friendly, the Sorcerer should get access to a handful more spells known, together with the option to swap metamagics at level up.

I think knowstones or a similar magic item would be a better way to make the sorcerer more "new player friendly"- it doesn't actually change the balance of the class, creates a fun item for sorcerers to use much in the same way as the bard instruments or holy avengers for paladins.

One thing I have done for sorcerers is use a free feat at first level to take Magic Initiate and then take Sorcerer. So one extra 1st level spell that way.


Sub-class and -race choice can solve some of those problems too. Dragon sorcerers do sort of get always on Mage Armor, and several sub-races get spells that have enough utility even at 1/day that they function as nearly bonus spells known.

[Dr. Cliché]

In my opinion, the Sorcerer is the hardest class to play well.

It's so easy to pick a "wrong" origin, "wrong" metamagics, or "wrong" spells, and be stuck with an ineffective character.

IMO to be newbie friendly, the Sorcerer should get access to a handful more spells known, together with the option to swap metamagics at level up.

I absolutely agree.

Having played a sorcerer, I felt I was forever being forced to choose between flavourful options and good options, due to the absolutely pathetic number of spells known. I have not had this issue with any other casting class - and that includes the half-casters like Arcane Tricksters.

I can honestly say that I have no intention of ever playing a sorcerer again with the current rules.

[TheUser]

If you choose, you could give Draconic Dragon's breath at 3rd and give Wild Mages Chaos Bolt at 1st to balance those out. But I don't think you need to do much more than that.


Draconic Sorcerers already get Mage Armor and Fly for free passively at levels 1 and 14 respectively.
No need to give them free spells (free mage armor is amazing!)

[Beechgnome]

Draconic Sorcerers already get Mage Armor and Fly for free passively at levels 1 and 14 respectively.
No need to give them free spells (free mage armor is amazing!)

I get that the AC boost is great, but you are talking about one of their Baked-in 1st level abilities, like all sorcerers get. Divine Souls fly too at 14th.

This isn't really about power: it's about playability, or fun. It's about not being forced to choose the same short list of optimal spells so you can take a little chance and experiment with a spell you don't normally take.

Mind you, it was just a suggestion. Like I said, I tend to use magic initiate to nudge that extra spell and I like Tieflings too for their racial spells, though those are strictly once a day. (Mammon Tiefling's Arcane lock plus distant spell is a personal favorite.) But I don't see one extra spell known as a game-breaker for any of the Sorcerous origins.

[ImproperJustice]

I absolutely agree.

Having played a sorcerer, I felt I was forever being forced to choose between flavourful options and good options, due to the absolutely pathetic number of spells known. I have not had this issue with any other casting class - and that includes the half-casters like Arcane Tricksters.

I can honestly say that I have no intention of ever playing a sorcerer again with the current rules.

I tend to almost always go with flavorful and fun options, and generally find enjoyment in using those spells to win the day instead of whatever other people think are best.

My current Sorceror is built around using “four elements” and it has been a blast.

One of the dangers of following a guide I feel is that sometimes it feels like you are playing someone else’s character.

[Dr. Cliché]

I tend to almost always go with flavorful and fun options, and generally find enjoyment in using those spells to win the day instead of whatever other people think are best.

I tried this and ended up with a load of useless crap that never did anything.

[LudicSavant]

So if I understand things correctly, the following two statements are true:

1. The sorceror is the least power (and perhaps exciting, though that is less objectivly measurable) in the Player's Handbook now that the ranger got revised in Unearthed Arcane.

2. The Divine Soul is mechanically superior to other Sorceror Origins.

Now, firstly are those two assumptions true in your opinion? If so, at a table where the principle of balance is important, should other origins be improved to match Divine Soul?

Followup question: If you had a player who had chosen not to take Divine Soul as they felt it was too powerful, and now feels a little let down by their dragon sorceror, would you give them something to boost their character? I am already ignoring the eratta that scorching ray doesn't get cha to damage on all three rays, but that doesn't feel like too much.

I don't agree with assumption 1. I think the PHB Sorcerer is a possible candidate for the least powerful single class full spellcaster, but the least powerful full spellcaster is not the least powerful character... at least if they're not built poorly (which is a lot easier to do than one might think from WotC's advertising of how "simple" the Sorcerer is supposed to be. Sorcerers are amongst the easiest characters to catastrophically mess up your build and gameplay with. If the intention was for them to be newbie-friendly, I think WotC very much failed that design goal).

That said, you're not going to break anything by buffing them a little bit, as long as you're not exceeding the power level of things like Abjurers, Arcana Clerics, Lore Bards, and Shepard Druids.

[RSP]

I think DS getting the Cleric list is a significant advantage, as is the free Spell Known and the SR +2d4. Empowered Healing is a free Metamagic, though not a great one. However, the Cleric list is the gift that keeps on giving, particularly with the non-Concentration spells like Sanctuary, Aid and Spiritual Weapon.

Twin Sanctuary, when times right, can save 2 characters from taking hits for a turn, which is not insignificant for a 1st level spell. Aid is always fantastic. SW is a great BA use that scales well.

Not to mention Empowered Healing on Prayer of Healing to ensure keeping the group’s HPs up.

DS is essentially the combo “Red Mage” and is among the most versatile of characters due to the combined spell lists. Granted, they’re still limited by spells known, but they still get a fantastic boost in where to pick them from. They aren’t needed if you have a Cleric and Wizard in the group, but if not, they’re pretty fantastic.

Caveat: I dont have experience with other Sorcs so don’t want to rate them, but just pointing out the DS access to spells is a significant boon that seems to be more potent than other options.

[sophontteks]

If you want spell diversity, you pick wizard.
If you want mastery over a few spells, you pick sorcerer.

There are spells in the game that are diverse on their own. Spells that transform into a force of their own in the hands of a sorcerer.
I strongly believe that any sorcerer that doesn't pick subtle spell is missing out on what actually makes a sorcerer good, because when you can cast these creative spells without leaving a trace of evidence that a spell was cast, the possibilities are endless.
Spells like: Illusions, phantasmal force, and suggestion turn into swiss army chainsaws in the hands of a sorcerer with subtle spell.

All a sorcerer needs is a couple damage spells (which they can manipulate with their other metamagic), a couple survival spells, and 1-2 of the above spells to own encounters. The creativity isn't in the number of spells, like a wizard, but in how you use the spells you got. And man, when you can cast without anyone knowing, the possibilities are endless.

Sorcerers require experienced players. Its easy to mess them up. Most players make bad metamagic picks and poor spell choices, but sorcerer is probably the strongest single caster in the game in the right hands.

[[email protected]]

I don't agree with assumption 1. I think the PHB Sorcerer is a possible candidate for the least powerful single class full spellcaster, but the least powerful full spellcaster is not the least powerful character... at least if they're not built poorly (which is a lot easier to do than one might think from WotC's advertising of how "simple" the Sorcerer is supposed to be. Sorcerers are amongst the easiest characters to catastrophically mess up your build and gameplay with. If the intention was for them to be newbie-friendly, I think WotC very much failed that design goal).

That said, you're not going to break anything by buffing them a little bit, as long as you're not exceeding the power level of things like Abjurers, Arcana Clerics, Lore Bards, and Shepard Druids.
The Level 20 Divine Soul Sorcerer is Itself a Coffeelock. Large amount of Spell Slots and Sorcery Points.

Without Coffeelocking. It's the Best Necromancer, The Best Simulacrum, The best Summoner e the best blaster of the game, The best Social character of the game.
Divine Soul and his Simulacrum can control 480 or more Skeleton without use any spell slot, While a Wizard using all spell slots avaible only control 126.
2 Planar Ally and Twin Planar Binding allow him to bind 2 powerful creatures for 1 year and a day.
Subtle Metamagic allows him to cast spell without be noticed and avoid grapple/restraitment/counterspell/silence. Controling/debuffing things without be detected. Enemies Abound, Mass Suggestion, Geas and other are Gold to social.
Twin concentration spell is gold.
Distant Metamagic + Wish:Duplicating Animal Shapes allow him to create a army of giant eagles. 8x more creature than normal.
Quicken spell allow him to be a caster and a melee at same time.


Wish, Planar Ally+Planar Binding, ANIMATE DEAD Booming Blade, Haste, Holy Weapon, Calm Emotions, Sanctuary, Freedom of Movement, Death Ward is enough to be more versatile than any other.

The Divine Soul Sorcerer alone defeats Abjurers, Arcana Clerics, Lore Bards, and Shepard Druids TOGETHER. If It uses Coffeelock, It would be a Massacre

[[email protected]]

If you want spell diversity, you pick wizard.
If you want mastery over a few spells, you pick sorcerer

The Divine Soul's Wish, Planar Ally + Twin Planar Binding, Animated Dead (Divine Soul Necromancy >> Necromancer) is alone more versatile and powerful than a Wizard entire list.

[LudicSavant]

The guy above ([email protected]) is the Sorcerer King guy who has been banned from this forum repeatedly (he already posted a new Sorcerer King thread, looking at his post history). Just ignore him. :roach:

[[email protected]]

The guy above is the Sorcerer King guy who has been banned from this forum repeatedly (he already posted a new Sorcerer King thread, looking at his post history). Just ignore him. :roach:

I said nothing but the truth

[sophontteks]

I said nothing but the truth
You are actively trying to win the disrespect of everyone here. He's just acknowledging your actions. You could just stop doing what you are doing.:smallconfused:

[MrStabby]

The sorcerer is one of the most powerful classes in the game, just full of traps. It doesn't help that it is kind of sold as a blaster which leads people to create low power sorcerers.

Divine soul is nice, but I don't think it is overpowered. Access to healing broadens what it can do and just an extra spell known is really useful. The downside is that a lot of spells that are good for a cleric are really bad on a sorcerer.

Spiritual guardians is powerful on a cleric that can wade in to combat in full plate mail. Less good on an unarmoured d6 hit die sorcerer - you don't want to get that close.

Water walking is fantastic on the cleric list - you can swap it in for aquatic adventures where it is really powerful. As a semi-permanent pick i t is going to sit idle for a lot of the time.

Sorcerer is powerful, divine soul is maybe a little more powerful than draconic but is severely held back by weak defences. A draconic sorcerer gets extra HP and doesn't need to invest a spell known for mage armour. A divine soul is likely to need to curtail there effectiveness in other areas in order to not fall down to the first fireball of stray arrows that hit the party.

The thing about the draconic sorcerer is that it can be quite effective without using up spell slots. Firebolt and cha to damage means you can keep spells for when you really need them. Judgement and discipline are important. A divine soul is likely to fall behind a little in this front so their spell slots will be spread a little more thinly.

[GorogIrongut]

Spiritual guardians is powerful on a cleric that can wade in to combat in full plate mail. Less good on an unarmoured d6 hit die sorcerer - you don't want to get that close.

I've got to be honest... and say that my level 2 Celestial Warlock dip made a Divine Soul Sorceror disgusting.

Distant Spell Metamagic doubled the range of Spiritual Guardians to a 30' radius. And then I just used eldritch blast with all of it's push/pulling and movement reducing abilities. It turned Spiritual Guardians into a vicious fly trap that was terribly difficult to escape. Worse it made it difficult for people to get close enough to damage me. I'd sit in the middle of combat throwing blasts around and then use my movement to place my opponents at their most disadvantaged position.

Combine that with the fact that I had ridiculous healing abilities from those two subclasses and I never felt even slightly in danger.

[MrStabby]

I've got to be honest... and say that my level 2 Celestial Warlock dip made a Divine Soul Sorceror disgusting.

Distant Spell Metamagic doubled the range of Spiritual Guardians to a 30' radius. And then I just used eldritch blast with all of it's push/pulling and movement reducing abilities. It turned Spiritual Guardians into a vicious fly trap that was terribly difficult to escape. Worse it made it difficult for people to get close enough to damage me. I'd sit in the middle of combat throwing blasts around and then use my movement to place my opponents at their most disadvantaged position.

Combine that with the fact that I had ridiculous healing abilities from those two subclasses and I never felt even slightly in danger.

I am not sure doubling the range of "self" was intended to have this effect. If you DM allows that then good for you, but I would not be surprised if other tables interpreted that differently. Still, not too bad as you are giving up other features for it.

[Boci]

Interest split of opinions. To simplify them, I think everyone on this thread falls into one of the following:

1. The sorceror class is fine, above average even

2. The sorceror is fine, but newbies will need help to avoid traps from picking the wrong origin/metamagics/spells

3. Even for expirienced players, the small spells known is a serious limitation that prevents creativity beyond a few good spells

The take on Divine Soul seems likewise split, though perhaps less so. In keeping with the two little spells idea, is does seem to give a new chance for new players to make the wrong choice, though others feel that it is certainly above average. No one feels its problomatically OP though, so I appear to be mistaken on that. Shadow is considered the best origin, if you have to choose one then?

As for what to do, I may just do nothing. I don't think the players issues with the class are a deal breaker for the game, however the knowstone loot drop is a good compromise, especially since the current settings allows for a fair bit of loot, as the players explore a castle, the owner of which has had a long time to gather treasures.

[LudicSavant]

Interest split of opinions. To simplify them, I think everyone on this thread falls into one of the following:

1. The sorceror class is fine, above average even

2. The sorceror is fine, but newbies will need help to avoid traps from picking the wrong origin/metamagics/spells

3. Even for expirienced players, the small spells known is a serious limitation that prevents creativity beyond a few good spells

The take on Divine Soul seems likewise split, though perhaps less so. In keeping with the two little spells idea, is does seem to give a new chance for new players to make the wrong choice, though others feel that it is certainly above average. No one feels its problomatically OP though, so I appear to be mistaken on that. Shadow is considered the best origin, if you have to choose one then?

As for what to do, I may just do nothing. I don't think the players issues with the class are a deal breaker for the game, however the knowstone loot drop is a good compromise, especially since the current settings allows for a fair bit of loot, as the players explore a castle, the owner of which has had a long time to gather treasures.

I think a lot of people have said that the Sorcerer isn't the weakest class (per your Assumption 1), but that's not really the same thing as saying that it's fine.

[MrStabby]

I think a lot of people have said that the Sorcerer isn't the weakest class (per your Assumption 1), but that's not really the same thing as saying that it's fine.

True. Certainly a number of comments that it is particularly powerful as well.

Personally I don't feel it needs toning down, but if it had to change...

[Beechgnome]

I am not sure doubling the range of "self" was intended to have this effect. If you DM allows that then good for you, but I would not be surprised if other tables interpreted that differently. Still, not too bad as you are giving up other features for it.

Yeah, range of self spells don't double with distant. There is a very small list of spells where the range acts as the radius of the spell for the purposes of distant (Word of radiance for divine Souls, sword burst, earth tremor and seeming... that's about it). Everything else is just range of self with an area of effect radius divorced from its range.

[MeeposFire]

I think a lot of people have said that the Sorcerer isn't the weakest class (per your Assumption 1), but that's not really the same thing as saying that it's fine.

Honestly the sorcerer is fine but that does not mean that you cannot make changes to it to make it better fit what you want in your game. The sorc is strong enough already but you can make various changes to it and it will not make it too powerful. For instance giving every sorc a few thematic bonus spells makes them stronger to an extent but does not make them too strong for the game or really change how they fit in the game balance.

[Ogre Mage]

Sorcerers can be frustrating to play, particularly at low levels. I find once you get into Tier 2 and have enough sorcery points, their strengths start to become more apparent.

IMO, the Divine Soul is one of the better sorcerer subclasses, but there are several other solid choices as well (draconic, shadow). The wild magic and storm sorcerers are inferior.

I do NOT think the Divine Soul looms over the other sorcerer subclasses in the way the hexblade does over the other warlock subclasses. So I would not consider it to be "too good."

The interaction of metamagic and cleric spells opens up the divine soul in interesting ways. Paladin or Life Cleric 1 are strong multiclass options from both a mechanical and roleplaying perspective. I am playing a Divine Soul X/Life Cleric 1 and I can speak to its effectiveness.

[sophontteks]

I think a lot of people have said that the Sorcerer isn't the weakest class (per your Assumption 1), but that's not really the same thing as saying that it's fine.
I said its the strongest caster.
Its probably a minority opinion. Most classes are very hard to screw up in 5e, but its really easy to screw up a sorcerer. Makes sense that most people would assume the class is bad.
But I'll stand by that its the strongest caster on subtle spell alone.

OK, I will add. They have the worst archtype options. And that is a shame. Very limited choices compared to other classes.

[MrStabby]

I said its the strongest caster.
Its probably a minority opinion. Most classes are very hard to screw up in 5e, but its really easy to screw up a sorcerer. Makes sense that most people would assume the class is bad.
But I'll stand by that its the strongest caster on subtle spell alone.

OK, I will add. They have the worst archtype options. And that is a shame. Very limited choices compared to other classes.

I would say wizard is strongest and sorcerer comes a close second. Some of it is campaign specific though. A wizard's ability to have a vast library of spells and switch between them each day is great if you are playing the kind of campaign where you can prepare. Wizard ritual casting alone is pretty awesome.

[MaxWilson]

I said its the strongest caster.
Its probably a minority opinion. Most classes are very hard to screw up in 5e, but its really easy to screw up a sorcerer. Makes sense that most people would assume the class is bad.
But I'll stand by that its the strongest caster on subtle spell alone.

OK, I will add. They have the worst archtype options. And that is a shame. Very limited choices compared to other classes.

More importantly, they have a crummy spell list. Divine Soul helps a lot there.

If sorcs had the wizard spell list they would be about as good as wizards despite their paucity of spells known.

[MrStabby]

More importantly, they have a crummy spell list. Divine Soul helps a lot there.

If sorcs had the wizard spell list they would be about as good as wizards despite their paucity of spells known.

Sorcerer with wizard list would be a bit over the top. Access to wall of force alone is great without even thinking of metamagic interaction.

[Waazraath]

I'm not overly fond of sorcerer regardless of bloodline. I find it truly dull, and sorry, no, the metamagic doesn't "make it more versatile". You become a one trick pony as much as any EB boosting warlock. Granting cleric spells on top of sorc spells doesn't make it too good - it makes it schizophrenic.

No thanks!

Huh? A few defensive spells, 1 or 2 blasting spells, some battle field controll... and you're all set. With only a few levels, you should have more then enough interesting options. And that's disregarding cantrips and metamagic. Yes, other classes know more spells. But 'one trick pony" is simply inaccurate. But it's inaccurate for an EB focus warlock as well, so I guess the argument is at least consistent.


More importantly, they have a crummy spell list. Divine Soul helps a lot there.

If sorcs had the wizard spell list they would be about as good as wizards despite their paucity of spells known.

Huh (pt 2)? They already have far more great spells on their spell list then they have 'spells known'.



The most obvious combo I see with Cleric spells and metamagic is extend. Extend an maximum upcast Aid and a Death Ward on all party members before bedtime, and go adventuring early in the morning, buffed with all spells and spell points rechared. Withany coffeelock nonsense that prolly no DM ever will allow. Only works though if you know you will be entering the Ruins of Doom next morning, and move at your own pace.

Nice? Yes. OP? Nope.

Sorcerer is fine, imo, as well as the Divine Soul subclass.

[sophontteks]

More importantly, they have a crummy spell list. Divine Soul helps a lot there.

If sorcs had the wizard spell list they would be about as good as wizards despite their paucity of spells known.
They have an amazing spell list. What are you talking about?


I would say wizard is strongest and sorcerer comes a close second. Some of it is campaign specific though. A wizard's ability to have a vast library of spells and switch between them each day is great if you are playing the kind of campaign where you can prepare. Wizard ritual casting alone is pretty awesome.
The great thing about 5e is the class balance. I have my own ratings for the casters, and honestly the wizard, to me, is the worst caster, but this is due to my own playstyle. In truth they are all too close to call.
Its just so impressive how well-balanced the classes are.

Wizards have one big problem for me. They are int-based, and int. Well. Int sucks. Bards, sorcerers, and warlocks can multiclass to mix and match their strengths seemlessly, and cha is just a great attribute to have overall.

[Boci]

One thing my player noted is that after burning hands, chromatic orb and magic missile at level one, sorching ray at level 2 and fireball at level 3, there weren't any good damaging spells at level 4 for a sorceror, and 4th slot fireball was just an extra 1d6 damage, which didn't really match the increase in monster HP.

[Daghoulish]

One thing my player noted is that after burning hands, chromatic orb and magic missile at level one, sorching ray at level 2 and fireball at level 3, there weren't any good damaging spells at level 4 for a sorceror, and 4th slot fireball was just an extra 1d6 damage, which didn't really match the increase in monster HP.

Are you just using the PHB? Otherwise sorcerers get Vitriolic Sphere which does 10d4 acid damage and 5d4 acid damage at the end of its next turn. You also have Storm sphere which on a bonus action you can do 4d6 lightning damage and at the start of any enemies turn within the sphere does 2d6 bludgeoning damage on a strength save. Sorcerer's even get Sickening Radiance which does 4d10 radiant damage and one level of exhaustion. Those seem like decent 4th level damage spells to me.

[Beechgnome]

Are you just using the PHB? Otherwise sorcerers get Vitriolic Sphere which does 10d4 acid damage and 5d4 acid damage at the end of its next turn. You also have Storm sphere which on a bonus action you can do 4d6 lightning damage and at the start of any enemies turn within the sphere does 2d6 bludgeoning damage on a strength save. Sorcerer's even get Sickening Radiance which does 4d10 radiant damage and one level of exhaustion. Those seem like decent 4th level damage spells to me.

Also for 3rd level spells Erupting earth scales better than fireball (d12s) and creates difficult terrain. Tidal wave also does damage with a knockdown and as of Xanathar's is a sorcerer spell.

Also Wall of Fire is a good damaging and a good control spell at 4th level. Dropping a wall on your opponents for 5d8 dam on a failed save AND splitting your opponents in two is worth more than one blast spell.

[MrStabby]

The great thing about 5e is the class balance. I have my own ratings for the casters, and honestly the wizard, to me, is the worst caster, but this is due to my own playstyle. In truth they are all too close to call.
Its just so impressive how well-balanced the classes are.

Wizards have one big problem for me. They are int-based, and int. Well. Int sucks. Bards, sorcerers, and warlocks can multiclass to mix and match their strengths seemlessly, and cha is just a great attribute to have overall.

Hmm. I suspect this may be very DM dependant. In the games I DM the knowledge skills are king. I use a lot of homebrew monsters and NPCs and int is a real path to knowledge there. I also tend to balance my saves in my game so the party will tend to face equal numbers of each save so int isn't a dump stat.

Arcana, nature or religion are important in understanding what spells are being cast against you. They are needed for disarming glyphs and wards.

On the other hand I am pretty tight on what you can hope to achieve with the social skills. Failed intimidation is likely to start fights, failed deception will end friendships and earn you a reputation, and it is pretty damn hard to persuade someone to act against their best interests. Hell, if you wanted to persuade someone by citing/quoting vast quantities of evidence or proofs then i would allow a persuasion (int) roll.

Creatures ambushing from behind illusions may need a stealth roll opposed by a perception (int) check... not saying my DM style is right, but I think a lot of this is campaign specific.

[sophontteks]

Hmm. I suspect this may be very DM dependant. In the games I DM the knowledge skills are king. I use a lot of homebrew monsters and NPCs and int is a real path to knowledge there. I also tend to balance my saves in my game so the party will tend to face equal numbers of each save so int isn't a dump stat.

Arcana, nature or religion are important in understanding what spells are being cast against you. They are needed for disarming glyphs and wards.

On the other hand I am pretty tight on what you can hope to achieve with the social skills. Failed intimidation is likely to start fights, failed deception will end friendships and earn you a reputation, and it is pretty damn hard to persuade someone to act against their best interests. Hell, if you wanted to persuade someone by citing/quoting vast quantities of evidence or proofs then i would allow a persuasion (int) roll.

Creatures ambushing from behind illusions may need a stealth roll opposed by a perception (int) check... not saying my DM style is right, but I think a lot of this is campaign specific.
Sounds like you haven't met a social god yet.
A glamour bard with 3 levels of sorcerer for subtle spell using suggestion and phantasmal force in conjunction with persuasion rolls and their keystone glamour bard mega charm would rewrite everything you know about social encounters.

[Boci]

So if you were going to have a knowstone as a lootdrop for an 8th level sorceror, which spell would be a good one for it to contain?

[Longcat]

The Divine Soul Sorcerer outshines these origins:

-Wild Magic if the DM is really stingy with rolls on the table.
-Any Dragon origin that is not fire based.

It's in line with Draconic(Fire), Shadow and Storm.

[Merudo]

I also tend to balance my saves in my game so the party will tend to face equal numbers of each save so int isn't a dump stat.


I really dislike this approach as it makes Wizards even stronger than they are normally.

[Asmotherion]

My default is Dragonic Hexblade and overall feel at the "powerful side". And no, coffeelocking is not permited at our table.

Monoclass non Divine Souls will have trouble Optimising to the same level as a Wizard for example, but it is entirelly possible through the right spell choices to have an amazing Sorcerer, especially with the new spell selections from Xanathar's, as long as the Pace of the Adventure helps you with it.

Sorcerer, more than any other caster, is all about what spells you select. Do the right choices, and you have a death machine, reguardless of Archetype. Go wrong, and you get a paper cutter.

[HolyDraconus]

Yea. No. Sorcerers are weak. Even though all casters in this edition has been weakened, it's still below druid and cleric, who themselves are below the bard. And since U.A. was mentioned, the origin that gave power to the sorc was gutted on its second iteration so badly that they literally had to change its name to say it wasn't a recreation of a previous class: favored soul. The first time thru near encapsulated the older edition class but it highlighted just how weak the sorcerer was.

But alas, sorcs will just have to continue being multi class tools for paladins and warlocks. Which the latter, come to think of it, had gotten a subclass with features they said was too much for the sorcerer. Hmm.

[Citan]

So if I understand things correctly, the following two statements are true:

1. The sorceror is the least power (and perhaps exciting, though that is less objectivly measurable) in the Player's Handbook now that the ranger got revised in Unearthed Arcane.

2. The Divine Soul is mechanically superior to other Sorceror Origins.

Now, firstly are those two assumptions true in your opinion? If so, at a table where the principle of balance is important, should other origins be improved to match Divine Soul?

Followup question: If you had a player who had chosen not to take Divine Soul as they felt it was too powerful, and now feels a little let down by their dragon sorceror, would you give them something to boost their character? I am already ignoring the eratta that scorching ray doesn't get cha to damage on all three rays, but that doesn't feel like too much.
Both assumptions are fairly wrong. I do agree with you on bypassing the Draconic nerf though, it was really a stupid ruling on their part.

I'm actually making a shadow sorceror for a game of my own, but for the one I started this thread for, I'm the DM. Shadow sorceror won't help here though, the player is a draconic sorceror, and if they were to remake it, they would likely choose another class all together.
So it's a problem with player feeling awkward with his character then.
It may boil down to 2-3 things usually, but overall...

In my opinion, the Sorcerer is the hardest class to play well.

It's so easy to pick a "wrong" origin, "wrong" metamagics, or "wrong" spells, and be stuck with an ineffective character.

IMO to be newbie friendly, the Sorcerer should get access to a handful more spells known, together with the option to swap metamagics at level up.
This sumps it up basically.
Sorcerer is very powerful but requires a fairly good knowledge on how to build characters, either "solo" or "party" ones. Otherwise, you may feel useless because of bad luck (you picked only offensive spells and rolls go against you), lassitude of using the same spells (because you picked only offensive ones, no creative ones) or being redundant (because you tried to pick the same role as another caster, but without the metamagics+spells combination that make you as good as him/her but in a different way).

If you want to give a nice boost without exaggerating, giving 1 more spell known "every two levels" (with retroactive effect) is usually working.
If your player is a newbie (no pejorative thought) and other players are fine with it (you're the DM anyways, but some players may act childish enough to confuse "flexibility for newcomers" and "favoritism")... Choose the combination ("inside" each point, and what points you want to act upon).
a) Spell known:
- Give him immediately 6 more spell known (immediate, not too powerful).
- One more spell known per level up to level 11 (more powerful, but in the long run).
b) Spell learnin:
- Ability to swap two spells when leveling up (easy).
- Ability to swap one known spell for another of the same school and same level or lower once per week/day (depending on how far you want to go).
c) Metamagics:
- Ability to swap Metamagics once per day/week.
- One more metamagic learnt at level 7 and 13.
- Immediately one more metamagic known.
d) Sorcery points
- Restore sorcery points up to CHA mod once per long rest (easy, power in check).
- Restore sorcery points up to half proficiency every short rest (possibly more powerful if party manages short rest well, otherwise possibly less).
- Restore sorcery points up to proficiency every short rest (quickly more powerful than the two other options).

(Personally I'd go simply with "6 more spell known" and "1 more metamagic": easy enough, no power creep management).
(And I'd houserule Draconic bonus damage as applying every instance: making spells like Flaming Sphere, Create Bonfire or Elemental Bane more interesting to use).

Also, the most important: advise your player not to overspecialize!
Some people believe that, because they ultimately get a +CHA mod to damage, should learn only damage spells. Nothing would be more wrong!
Help him explore in different ways and keep a balance between...
- Always useful spells for him (Shield, Absorb Elements, Misty Step)
- Always useful spells for party (Enhance Ability, Invisibility, Fly, Polymorph).
- AOE (Careful/Empowered) or single (Heigthened) control/damage spells (Hypnotic Pattern, Slow, Fireball, Fear, etc).
- Some utility spells for being more active outside combat (Comprehend Languages, Disguise Self).
- ONE single-target damage spell that matches his Draconic.

[Millface]

As far as Divine Soul goes... yeah... it's the best by FAR. Opening up the sorcerer's spell pool is a real game changer. Cleric has a ton of goodies to build either a fantastic support character or a different twist on a damage dealer. Metamagic becomes far more valuable when you gain access to spells outside of the normal sorcerer list. Quickening support spells so that you can support while still doing damage is huge. Twinning cure wounds is huge. A sorcerer gaining access to spells like spiritual weapon and spirit guardians is also amazing.

The Divine Soul still benefits so much from a 2 level dip in Warlock or Paladin though that it's almost stupid not to take it. A Hexblade/Divine Soul puts out the second most healing in the game behind life cleric while simultaneously being able to pump out Eldritch Blasts until the sorcery points run out. Alternatively, they can take sorcerer damage to an entirely new level with access to spirit guardians to pair with Hexblade's Curse and metamagic. 3d8 passive AoE damage per round that also procs the proficiency damage on Curse paired with Eldritch Blast + Scorching Ray puts out some absolutely crazy nova.

Is it an issue that sorcerers basically need to multiclass? Kinda, yeah. But what can you do about it? Buffing the sorcerer doesn't take away the synergy of the multiclass or the benefit to a sorcerer's toolkit given to the class by those dips, it would just break them. You'd almost have to rework the entire game.

The last question... can you really call a class that has 15+ levels in a handful of the best builds in 5e underpowered? Maybe poorly designed because each class should be able to stand on it's own about as well as it does with a multiclass, but not underpowered.