What's the value of a hit die?

[PhoenixPhyre]

Note: for the purposes of this post you can assume a properly-enforced adventuring day with 2 short rests and multiple fights (4-5 hard or 6-7 medium).

Imagine you were given the following option:

You can expend one hit die as a bonus action on your turn. When you do so, instead of regaining hit points you _______________.

What would make it worth it?
* Restoring a spell slot (up to 6th level as normal)?
* Restoring a LR resource?
* Getting the "rolled a 20" effect on a death save (either for yourself or someone else)?

Alternate:
What if, in addition to spending a hit die, you were unable to regain any hit die on the next long rest after using the ability? Too much penalty?

[Theodoxus]

Here's all my rules regarding Hit Dice:

Rest and RecoveryBreather: A Breather is a period of brief respite between encounters. So long as the character is not in imminent danger they can spend one Hit Dice. A character cannot benefit from another Breather until they've finished a Short or Long Rest.
Restoring spent resources with a Breather Hit Die for Primary Classes:
Barbarian - Can restore one expended use of Rage.
Bard - Can restore two expended uses of inspiration.
Cleric - Can restore one expended use of Channel Divinity.
Druid - Can restore one expended use of Wild Shape.
Fighter - Can restore one expended use of Action Surge.
Monk - Can restore two expended Ki points.
Paladin - Can restore their Lay on Hands pool up to the amount rolled on the Hit Die.
Ranger - Can restore one expended level 1 spell slot.
Rogue - Can use 2 Hit Dice to heal instead of just one.
Sorcerer - Can restore two expended Sorcery Points.
Warlock - Can restore one expended spell slot.
Wizard - Can ritually cast a 1st level spell with the Ritual Tag as an action.

Feats:Breathe DeepWhen spending a Hit Die to recover spent resources, you may opt to restore a single use of any class ability that normally recharges on a short rest.
Breathe DeeperPrerequisite: Breathe Deep
You can opt to spend two Hit Dice during a Breather or Short Rest to restore a single use of any class ability that normally recharges on a long rest. Once you do, you can't use this ability again until you've taken a long rest.

[diabloblanco18]

Any of those three options would be worth it to me. They would be increasingly worth it as my hypothetical character gained levels, because after 1st level, a hit die only represents a fraction of my total hit points. You might consider changing your benefits so that they also decrease in value as you level, like getting to regain a spell slot of the lowest level available to you.

I don't think those options are worth half my hit dice, though, which is roughly what I'm losing if I can't regain any on the following long rest. Maybe if I was already full up on hit dice didn't expect to need any of them for healing that adventuring day. Then I might decide to spend one.

[Theodoxus]

I don't think any of my players have actually used the mechanic, and none have taken the feats (though to be honest, I have over 150 feats to choose from - even with a feat everyone odd level, that's a lot of choices).

Then again, my players don't typically spend HD on healing either - so you'd think they'd use them one way or another... Maybe I should promote the idea more.

[GlenSmash!]

Here's all my rules regarding Hit Dice:

Rest and RecoveryBreather: A Breather is a period of brief respite between encounters. So long as the character is not in imminent danger they can spend one Hit Dice. A character cannot benefit from another Breather until they've finished a Short or Long Rest.
Restoring spent resources with a Breather Hit Die for Primary Classes:
Barbarian - Can restore one expended use of Rage.
Bard - Can restore two expended uses of inspiration.
Cleric - Can restore one expended use of Channel Divinity.
Druid - Can restore one expended use of Wild Shape.
Fighter - Can restore one expended use of Action Surge.
Monk - Can restore two expended Ki points.
Paladin - Can restore their Lay on Hands pool up to the amount rolled on the Hit Die.
Ranger - Can restore one expended level 1 spell slot.
Rogue - Can use 2 Hit Dice to heal instead of just one.
Sorcerer - Can restore two expended Sorcery Points.
Warlock - Can restore one expended spell slot.
Wizard - Can ritually cast a 1st level spell with the Ritual Tag as an action.

Feats:Breathe DeepWhen spending a Hit Die to recover spent resources, you may opt to restore a single use of any class ability that normally recharges on a short rest.
Breathe DeeperPrerequisite: Breathe Deep
You can opt to spend two Hit Dice during a Breather or Short Rest to restore a single use of any class ability that normally recharges on a long rest. Once you do, you can't use this ability again until you've taken a long rest.

I like it. Simple, useful, and by no means overpowered.

[Pex]

Alternate:
What if, in addition to spending a hit die, you were unable to regain any hit die on the next long rest after using the ability? Too much penalty?

Yes, too much. I appreciate the idea, have it be a meaningful choice between self-healing and ________ . However, by punishing the use of _______ why bother offering it? The cost actually becomes two HD - the HD you spend and the HD you don't get back the next long rest. There's further punishing when you realize you only get back half your HD spent on a long rest, so now it's half HD spent - HD spent on _________ that you get back.

Balance around not minding ________ for a spent HD, whatever ______ is, not the audacity of doing what you're graciously permitting. I accept there would exist _______ where spending a HD is too good so shouldn't be allowed.

[Jama7301]

All these ideas for alternate hit die usage are making me wish I remembered them as a usable resource sooner, when I was working on something. Feels like a good way to support the "Cast from Hit Points" trope without causing immediate risk to the user. Trade future uncertainty for a current benefit.

[MrStabby]

Somewhere in the history of the forums I had a similar topic (cant remember any keywords to narrow down a search).

I think the most useful/well received one was "power through" - as a reaction when you make a save expend a HD and add the result to your roll.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Any of those three options would be worth it to me. They would be increasingly worth it as my hypothetical character gained levels, because after 1st level, a hit die only represents a fraction of my total hit points. You might consider changing your benefits so that they also decrease in value as you level, like getting to regain a spell slot of the lowest level available to you.

I don't think those options are worth half my hit dice, though, which is roughly what I'm losing if I can't regain any on the following long rest. Maybe if I was already full up on hit dice didn't expect to need any of them for healing that adventuring day. Then I might decide to spend one.


Yes, too much. I appreciate the idea, have it be a meaningful choice between self-healing and ________ . However, by punishing the use of _______ why bother offering it? The cost actually becomes two HD - the HD you spend and the HD you don't get back the next long rest. There's further punishing when you realize you only get back half your HD spent on a long rest, so now it's half HD spent - HD spent on _________ that you get back.

Balance around not minding ________ for a spent HD, whatever ______ is, not the audacity of doing what you're graciously permitting. I accept there would exist _______ where spending a HD is too good so shouldn't be allowed.

Yeah, I figured the "can't regain HD" was too much.

Maybe letting them regain a spell slot as if they used Arcane Recovery, although Warlocks...


I don't think any of my players have actually used the mechanic, and none have taken the feats (though to be honest, I have over 150 feats to choose from - even with a feat everyone odd level, that's a lot of choices).

Then again, my players don't typically spend HD on healing either - so you'd think they'd use them one way or another... Maybe I should promote the idea more.

One issue with giving more options through houserules is that, unlike the base rules they're not always in front of them. Heck, I've forgotten some of my "new option" house-rules.


All these ideas for alternate hit die usage are making me wish I remembered them as a usable resource sooner, when I was working on something. Feels like a good way to support the "Cast from Hit Points" trope without causing immediate risk to the user. Trade future uncertainty for a current benefit.

I was thinking of ways to incorporate the HD mechanic more deeply into the game--as is they're a bit disconnected.


Somewhere in the history of the forums I had a similar topic (cant remember any keywords to narrow down a search).

I think the most useful/well received one was "power through" - as a reaction when you make a save expend a HD and add the result to your roll.

I like this. I had thought of "can succeed on a saving throw to end an existing effect on yourself"; yours is the proactive version of that.

[ad_hoc]

A hit die is worth 1/2 a level 1 spell slot at most.

[Isaire]

A hit die is worth 1/2 a level 1 spell slot at most.

Certainly no more than a level 1 spell slot. What motivation does a caster have to use hit die normally if they can just use it to cast more spells? Hell, how does that fit in with cleric healing spells? Wouldn't they get more healing through a spell slot than through a hit die, and it can be used on other people?

More problematic if you can restore extra 2nd level or higher spell slots I think, as group healing spells can be regained and are strictly a better use of the hit die.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Certainly no more than a level 1 spell slot. What motivation does a caster have to use hit die normally if they can just use it to cast more spells? Hell, how does that fit in with cleric healing spells? Wouldn't they get more healing through a spell slot than through a hit die, and it can be used on other people?

More problematic if you can restore extra 2nd level or higher spell slots I think, as group healing spells can be regained and are strictly a better use of the hit die.


A hit die is worth 1/2 a level 1 spell slot at most.

Yeah, I can see that. Either restrict it to 1st level slots or say 1 HD/slot level. That'd be a different value proposition entirely.

[Pex]

A first level slot is fine. It's a good deal for the player and I don't think a DM would regret it. First level spells are nice, but it's not going to hurt for a spellcaster to have a few more. It's probably best to restrict this to full casters. Warlock spellcasting is wonky, and for a paladin it becomes a smite. One might be ok with a smite, but a paladin player would likely save it for facing undead or fiends. One HD for +3d8 damage is pushing it. Let the paladin get back his Channel Energy.

An option you might want to consider is continuous -1 HD for another attunement slot. If a player needs/wants to do this for a fourth attunement slot the campaign is already rich in magic items. It's accepted by everyone that's the type of campaign you're playing, so while the idea sounds powerful in my opinion it fits the inherent power level of the game it would be used. Maybe this is worth 2 HD or vary HD depending on the rarity of the magic item.