A thought-- spell-less Warlock?

[Grod_The_Giant]

What if we took away all of the Warlock's casting but cantrips, but in return gave them as many Invocations Known as they normally get spells known? How would the resulting class look and play?

(Possible refinements: Eldritch Blast granted for free at 1st level, an Invocation granting Hex 1-2 per Short Rest)

[Nifft]

You'd need a lot of new Invocations.

You'd need to re-write a few existing Invocations.

You'd basically be writing half a class -- but it could be great.

[Unoriginal]

So a class with nothing but spells at will and other ongoing powers?

[Grod_The_Giant]

So a class with nothing but spells at will and other ongoing powers?
And a few 1/day things, but yeah, essentially-- more like the original 3.5 Warlock. Could make for a nice beginner-friendly magic type. Not to mention that there are a lot of invocations that are really cool, but too niche to ever see play normally.

[diabloblanco18]

I'm working on one of these (along with several other spell-less variants of existing classes). Despite never having played a warlock in 3.5 or even more than a handful of sessions using that edition, I'm trying to make my spell-less warlock more like the 3.5 warlock, with lots of at-will abilities. The warlock currently has a handful of those—stuff like Eldritch Sight and Misty Visions which allow you to cast certain low-impact spells without using slots or material components—but I think it could use a lot more. For example:


Glamour of the Seelie Courts
Prerequisite: 5th level

You can cast charm person at will, without expending a spell slot. When you use this invocation, the effects of any previous use end immediately. You must finish a long rest before you can use this invocation on the same creature again.

At 9th, 13th, and 17th level, the level of the spell increases by one.

I guess it's not really a spell-less warlock, though. More like a spell slot-less one.

[krugaan]

And a few 1/day things, but yeah, essentially-- more like the original 3.5 Warlock. Could make for a nice beginner-friendly magic type. Not to mention that there are a lot of invocations that are really cool, but too niche to ever see play normally.

I like the idea, but ... hmmmm.

I was going to say it sort of crystallizes why many don't think warlock is worthwhile to take past level 2, but hey, if that's true... why not?

In return for losing all spellcasting, you'd have to offer not only more invocations, but something unique to keep warlocks from becoming like a "magical rogue".

[Grod_The_Giant]

In return for losing all spellcasting, you'd have to offer not only more invocations, but something unique to keep warlocks from becoming like a "magical rogue".
I mean, they're already basically a magic archer. Agonizing Blast and a Fighter shooting a longbow is pretty identical (Sharpshooter aside). If you consider all the existing invocations like Repelling Blast that add riders, you're basically a Battle Master Fighter. Invocations don't really NEED to offer much new offensive power, because you've already got plenty to keep up.

[MrStabby]

I agree you would need a lot more invocations.

Firstly the choice isn't great as it is. Secondly a decent fraction of the ones that there are at the moment let you cast spells using you spell slots (or smite things with them).

Thirdly there is a yawning power gap - what invocation do you take that is as good as foresight?

Fourthly it squeezes warlocks into playing ever more similar to each other. No spells to distinguish them, not even patron choices. Meaningful differentiation may need to be added. If I want to mix it up in combat I can take spells like armour of Agathys to survive - taking these away really narrows down playstyles.

Fifthly you may need to add lost utility - a pact of the chain familliar is cool in part because it can deliver spells. No spells means trouble here. Or look at something like the fiend pact - recovery of temp HP is dependant on killing things - replacing a mechanism for doing this with out of combat utility weakens the feature. Dark ones own luck is less good without counterspell and so on.

I think that going though this you would need to make so many exceptions for different spells - essentially turning a lot of crucial spells into invocations - that you would be simpler just having spells.

[krugaan]

I mean, they're already basically a magic archer. Agonizing Blast and a Fighter shooting a longbow is pretty identical (Sharpshooter aside). If you consider all the existing invocations like Repelling Blast that add riders, you're basically a Battle Master Fighter. Invocations don't really NEED to offer much new offensive power, because you've already got plenty to keep up.

I was mentally comparing what a ranged fighter and warlock get and found the fighter was depressingly short on stuff. The only major thing which battlemaster brings to the table is sharpshooter and archery fighting style (which, to be fair, is not nothing), while warlock gets spells and all the other out of combat invocations. And action surge, I guess.

Defensively, fighters will have more hp and armor, but warlocks will have crowd control, counterspell, misty step, etc, none of which battlemaster have in any form.

So really, a spell-less warlock seems almost reasonable when compared to a battlemaster archer. Maybe retain pact slots which can only be used for hex and armor of agathys (or whatever), maybe make book of rituals baseline?

[MrStabby]

I was mentally comparing what a ranged fighter and warlock get and found the fighter was depressingly short on stuff. The only major thing which battlemaster brings to the table is sharpshooter and archery fighting style (which, to be fair, is not nothing), while warlock gets spells and all the other out of combat invocations. And action surge, I guess.

Defensively, fighters will have more hp and armor, but warlocks will have crowd control, counterspell, misty step, etc, none of which battlemaster have in any form.

So really, a spell-less warlock seems almost reasonable when compared to a battlemaster archer. Maybe retain pact slots which can only be used for hex and armor of agathys (or whatever), maybe make book of rituals baseline?

Don't forget a bundle of ASIs and an attack action it is easy to add a lot of benefits to. I will agree fighter looks a little less attractive if you are going without feats.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I was mentally comparing what a ranged fighter and warlock get and found the fighter was depressingly short on stuff. The only major thing which battlemaster brings to the table is sharpshooter and archery fighting style (which, to be fair, is not nothing), while warlock gets spells and all the other out of combat invocations. And action surge, I guess.
Something something linear warriors/quadratic wizards.


I agree you would need a lot more invocations.

Firstly the choice isn't great as it is. Secondly a decent fraction of the ones that there are at the moment let you cast spells using you spell slots (or smite things with them).
You would probably need to come up with an elegant way of dealing with the ones that involve spell slots, but a lot more invocations? If you count UA options, there are over sixty (including a number of pact- and patron-specific ones); that's more than enough to create very distinct Warlocks.

[krugaan]

Don't forget a bundle of ASIs and an attack action it is easy to add a lot of benefits to. I will agree fighter looks a little less attractive if you are going without feats.

Hmmm, fighters get, what ... 6 extra ASI/feats over the course of their lifetime?

Lets assume they get about four additional feats (medium armor, heavy armor, weapon master, tough) on top of that.

10 ASIs for spellcasting, that does seem fairish, I suppose?

edit: I'll do a more thorough breakdown later, I'm AFB

[diabloblanco18]

Maybe retain pact slots which can only be used for hex and armor of agathys (or whatever), maybe make book of rituals baseline?

Most warlocks are going to want hex, so make it into a class feature. Stuff like armor of agathys that depends on playstyle is better off as an invocation that you don't have to choose if you don't want it.

[krugaan]

Most warlocks are going to want hex, so make it into a class feature. Stuff like armor of agathys that depends on playstyle is better off as an invocation that you don't have to choose if you don't want it.

If I really think about it, battlemaster maneuver are basically junk warlock pact spells, lol.

edit: refresh on short rest, variable effects, limited number of them...

[MrStabby]

Something something linear warriors/quadratic wizards.


You would probably need to come up with an elegant way of dealing with the ones that involve spell slots, but a lot more invocations? If you count UA options, there are over sixty (including a number of pact- and patron-specific ones); that's more than enough to create very distinct Warlocks.

Ah right... if you count UA. I don't really know UA as I don't know anyone who uses it.

Does it enable tough stick in the front-lines tanky warlocks like AoA does? Are there invocations for that? Is there a good mobility based invocation to cover the gap of spells like misty step? Are there invocations to defend against magic and be a substitute for counterspell? Are there invocations that let a warlock have powerful control abilities to replace banishment? It's not the number itself that worries me but the range and what they let the warlock do.

[BreaktheStatue]

Would getting rid of all casting just affect the Pact Magic slots, or also Mystic Arcanum? The latter already seem like a pseudo-invocation, in that they don't burn slots and they're 1/LR.

[Nifft]

You would probably need to come up with an elegant way of dealing with the ones that involve spell slots, but a lot more invocations? If you count UA options, there are over sixty (including a number of pact- and patron-specific ones); that's more than enough to create very distinct Warlocks.

Yeah I too don't know anyone who allows everything from UA.

The Invocations in the core book include garbage like Thief if Five Fates ("cast Bane 1/day, this uses up a spell slot").

There's some proportion of the Invocation list which is good stuff, and the remainder is either unexciting or outright garbage. This isn't game-wrecking because you get so few Invocations that you can mostly just ignore the dregs and build around the good stuff. But if you give so many Invocations that everybody needs to dig into the midden heap, that's going to be a bad thing.

[diabloblanco18]

Yeah I too don't know anyone who allows everything from UA.

The Invocations in the core book include garbage like Thief if Five Fates ("cast Bane 1/day, this uses up a spell slot").

There's some proportion of the Invocation list which is good stuff, and the remainder is either unexciting or outright garbage. This isn't game-wrecking because you get so few Invocations that you can mostly just ignore the dregs and build around the good stuff. But if you give so many Invocations that everybody needs to dig into the midden heap, that's going to be a bad thing.

On the other hand, if you're redesigning the class to not have spell slots, you also have to go through the invocations and redesign stuff like Thief of Five Fates. If you're being lazy, you could just change it to give the listed spell 1/day, but hopefully you'd instead take the time to make it a strong and/or flavorful choice.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Ah right... if you count UA. I don't really know UA as I don't know anyone who uses it.

Does it enable tough stick in the front-lines tanky warlocks like AoA does? Are there invocations for that? Is there a good mobility based invocation to cover the gap of spells like misty step? Are there invocations to defend against magic and be a substitute for counterspell? Are there invocations that let a warlock have powerful control abilities to replace banishment? It's not the number itself that worries me but the range and what they let the warlock do.
I mean, I bet more people allow UA material than allow total homebrew variants <shrug>

The second part digs into the crux of the matter, I think: replacing casting with invocations turns the Warlock into, essentially, a martial character. One with a whole bunch of magic tricks, but still, at its core, someone who makes attack rolls every round. I'm not sure we should be comparing them to RAW Warlocks so much as, oh, Rangers and Eldritch Knights-- other classes who augment a basic martial chassis with a lesser amount of magic.



There's some proportion of the Invocation list which is good stuff, and the remainder is either unexciting or outright garbage. This isn't game-wrecking because you get so few Invocations that you can mostly just ignore the dregs and build around the good stuff. But if you give so many Invocations that everybody needs to dig into the midden heap, that's going to be a bad thing.
Good point about the inconsistency. The viability would depend, to a large extent, on the depth and power of the list.

As a quick thought experiment... even before pacts and patrons, a 5th level Warlock could have, oh...

Agonizing Blast
Repelling Blast
Grasp of Hadar
Mask of Many Faces
One With Shadows
Misty Visions

Along with (free) Eldritch Blast, Friends, Prestidigitation, and Minor Illusion.

That gives you a pair of d10+4 attacks with not-insignificant amounts of battlefield control, excellent illusions, and the ability to blend invisibly into the shadows. Compare that to an Arcane Trickster. (Though you're not wrong; avoiding UA material does leave the list of good options kinda short)


Would getting rid of all casting just affect the Pact Magic slots, or also Mystic Arcanum? The latter already seem like a pseudo-invocation, in that they don't burn slots and they're 1/LR.
They'd be gone-- I'm pretty sure they're only different because high-level spells were written with the expectation that you'd only be able to cast them ~1/day.

[Nifft]

that's more than enough to create very distinct Warlocks.


Good point about the inconsistency. The viability would depend, to a large extent, on the depth and power of the list.

As a quick thought experiment... even before pacts and patrons, a 5th level Warlock could have, oh...

Agonizing Blast
Repelling Blast
Grasp of Hadar
Mask of Many Faces
One With Shadows
Misty Visions

Along with (free) Eldritch Blast, Friends, Prestidigitation, and Minor Illusion.

That gives you a pair of d10+4 attacks with not-insignificant amounts of battlefield control, excellent illusions, and the ability to blend invisibly into the shadows. Compare that to an Arcane Trickster. (Though you're not wrong; avoiding UA material does leave the list of good options kinda short)

Yep, that's a solid build.

It's mechanically and thematically distinct from an Arcane Trickster, but they'd be very happy in the same party, doing the same types of missions.

But now you're done. There aren't enough good Invocations to build a second "very distinct" Warlock which doesn't overlap this one.

So yeah, lots of work would need to be done. And it should be done, because Warlocks deserve a great list of invocations.

[Mortis_Elrod]

I'd probably like it more than i do if it were more like the 3.5 warlock. (but i still love 5e warlock. fave class still)

I think you could turn alot of spells into invocations pretty easily. Take all the exclusive and iconic spells and make those invocations. Then make invocations to modify EB more. Alot of the fun was how modular the main attack was. 5e has some added affects true, but more can certainly be done. The best one i've seen was Kiss of Mephistopheles which sadly didn't make the cut but I'm sure it would be hard to make invocations for the shape and energy of EB.

also increase the invocation cap and rate of learning. I'm thinking 15 invocations. and maybe keep the Mystic Incarnums, those are like Greater and Dark invocations.

edit: Some of the spell slot using invocations and 1/LR invocations might need to be changed. Maybe something like uses based on Cha mod or warlock level(or half) or proff bonus.

[rbstr]

It would be pretty severely weak particularly at higher levels. Invocations, whatever set, don't let you do the power of ~12 5th level spells a day. You'd ahve to change them very substantially.

[Tanarii]

I think that going though this you would need to make so many exceptions for different spells - essentially turning a lot of crucial spells into invocations - that you would be simpler just having spells.This is what it boils down to for me. Why make a bunch of invocations to do magic things when you can just do what the debs did and tap into the spells system, letting the Warlock use spell slots to cast spells? The short rest refresh mechanic gives them an interesting twist, striking a balance between at-will and very limited daily resources.

[Cybren]

This is what it boils down to for me. Why make a bunch of invocations to do magic things when you can just do what the debs did and tap into the spells system, letting the Warlock use spell slots to cast spells? The short rest refresh mechanic gives them an interesting twist, striking a balance between at-will and very limited daily resources.
Also, pact magic and mystic arcanum are cool features that make warlocks probably the best option for caster/caster gestalts, for the .05% of players that have ever played that variant rule. (this doesn't actually matter, obviously)

[Afrodactyl]

I could see it happening if a few things happened:

1. Expand the cantrips that Warlocks have access to and give them a higher number of cantrips known.
2. Make all of the warlock-exclusive spells automatically known by all warlocks as a 1/day cast. Make some of them a 1/long rest or short rest like hex and AoA to keep the warlock feel about.
3. More pact specific spells, as a 1/day thing (so fiend gets a 1/day fireball, scorching ray etc)
4. More invocations offering more niche spells as either at-will spells or 1/day


So giving warlocks a bucketload of options, but they're either powerful and 1/day, or situational and at-will

[Dr. Cliché]

What if we also expanded the Pacts?

For example, perhaps a Chain Warlock should get a progressively more powerful familiar (a bit like an Arcane version of the revised Beast Master). The Blade Warlock could gradually gain access to stronger weapons, perhaps gaining the ability to infuse different abilities into his weapons, which can be switched on a short/long rest.

That sort of thing.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Less extreme thought: what about allowing Warlocks to pick a new Invocation instead of a spell known?

[MrStabby]

Now that's more interesting.

I could get behind that.

[Rebonack]

It looks like someone beat me to it, but if the Warlocks boons also became full class features that progressively grew in power with level I think that would provide plenty of material to work from.

A few Warlock only spells would probably need to be converted into Invocations for this concept to get off the ground, but I think it could work pretty well.

When I get some more time I'll toss together a mockup.

[MrStabby]

Less extreme thought: what about allowing Warlocks to pick a new Invocation instead of a spell known?

I was wondering what the impact would be of restricting the number of spells known by warlocks but broadening the pool of warlock spells. Say start off with two spells known at first level then raise the number by one every two levels. More limited casting but in exchange you get to develop a more focused theme for your caster: the build a bear of patrons. I find that as you only have one level of spell slot warlocks maybe don't need quite as many spells known as they do.

[Dr. Cliché]

One minor thing I'd suggest (and this also applies to the normal Warlock) - I'd have them start with Eldritch Blast automatically.

It's a somewhat minor point, but it seems weird to have a class designed around an optional ability. :smalltongue:


It looks like someone beat me to it, but if the Warlocks boons also became full class features that progressively grew in power with level I think that would provide plenty of material to work from.

A few Warlock only spells would probably need to be converted into Invocations for this concept to get off the ground, but I think it could work pretty well.

When I get some more time I'll toss together a mockup.

If you find the time I'd really like to see that. :smallsmile:

[Nifft]

One minor thing I'd suggest (and this also applies to the normal Warlock) - I'd have them start with Eldritch Blast automatically.

It's a somewhat minor point, but it seems weird to have a class designed around an optional ability. :smalltongue:

Eldritch Blast as a class feature removes a bunch of dipping abuse, too. It's a solid improvement from both a convenience and a balance perspective.

[krugaan]

Eldritch Blast as a class feature removes a bunch of dipping abuse, too. It's a solid improvement from both a convenience and a balance perspective.

Wait, how's that stop dipping?

[ATHATH]

You could try bringing back the sorting of invocations into different grades (Least, Lesser, Greater, and Dark) that are "unlocked" at different levels from 3.5e. It might be easier to balance than having every ability in the class be available at level 1, and it might make a good "substitute" for Mystic Arcanum. Plus, it'll probably line up well with the tiers of play that 5e's balance is built around.

[Nifft]

Wait, how's that stop dipping?

Who said anything would "stop dipping"?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Wait, how's that stop dipping?
I imagine it would be "get a second beam at WARLOCK level 5, 11, and 17," rather than character level.


You could try bringing back the sorting of invocations into different grades (Least, Lesser, Greater, and Dark) that are "unlocked" at different levels from 3.5e. It might be easier to balance than having every ability in the class be available at level 1, and it might make a good "substitute" for Mystic Arcanum. Plus, it'll probably line up well with the tiers of play that 5e's balance is built around.
There are already plenty of level-gated invocations, so that shouldn't be an issue.

[bid]

I imagine it would be "get a second beam at WARLOCK level 5, 11, and 17," rather than character level.
That should be part of agonizing blast, without the 4 * +5, eldritch blast is just another cantrip.

[krugaan]

That should be part of agonizing blast, without the 4 * +5, eldritch blast is just another cantrip.

This, pretty much. If anything, you could add extra invocations to add utility to EB (although I admit there are a ton already).

We already have extra damage, range, slow, push, pull... Did 4e already do shapes? Never played that edition.

Or even have something like smite be applicable to blast?

[Vogie]

I could see it.

They've actually released almost this precise idea... A metric ton of invocations, with at will, encounter, and daily powers. They just made it a bit too complicated and most people don't play it. It's called the Mystic.

You could, by the same token, using the Mystic Discipline skeleton as a collection of invocations would work with the warlock mechanical skeleton, even down to the "use spell slot" invocations (designed to introduce non-warlock spells that scale with level, such as Thief of Five Fates giving a scaling Bane... not that anyone would want that, as far as I can tell), but replacing it with a point system.

One of the reasons the Mystic's Psi Points got so unwieldy (going from 4 to... 71??) is because it was a LR based class. You replace that with a significantly smaller number of points due to the Warlock being a short-rest class, not unlike the Monk's Ki Points system.

[Rebonack]

If you find the time I'd really like to see that. :smallsmile:

Ask and you shall receive.

Basic level outline would probably go something like-

1: Eldritch Patron, Eldritch Boon
2: Hex 1d6, Eldritch Invocations
3: Boon Feature
4: Ability Score Increase
5: Boon Feature, Hex 2d6
6: Patron Feature
7: Hex Feature
8: Ability Score Increase
9: Hex Feature
10: Patron Feature
11: Boon Feature, Hex 3d6
12: Ability Score Increase
13: Hex Feature
14: Patron Feature
15: Hex Feature
16: Ability Score Increase
17: Boon Feature, Hex 4d6
18: Hex Feature
19: Ability Score Increase
20: Patron Feature

So I figure Patron choice nets you two cantrips specific to that Patron, Eldritch Blast, and one cantrip of your choice from the Warlock list. Hex would be simplified a bit, triggers once per round when you damage something and inflicts the indicated amount of damage. That makes its damage a bit more reliable and allows it to be used with a wider selection of class features without any loss of effectiveness. The Hex Features would be a nice list of additional nasty effects to pick from (contagious hexes, area of effect hexes, hexes that trigger off allied damage, more painful hexes, hexes that gimp attack rolls or saves, ect). I'm pretty sure you would be able to get away with exactly the same number of Invocations granted at the same levels given that the Warlock is getting a heap of other features.

This is pretty bare bones, but it feels like a pretty solid starting point. With things like Hex and Boons getting their invocations rolled into major class features, that would save plenty of room for adding new Invocations that that mimic key Warlock spells. To keep the Patron spell lists relevant, I think a few Patron-only Invocations would be worth tossing together, too.