I don't remember ever owning a droid

[Vinyadan]

Was R2 ever stated to be Obi Wan's property? Not that it matters much, given his approach to factual accuracy, but it's something I have seen some discussion about.

[TheStargazer]

R2 was part of the Royal Security Force of Naboo initially, and was apparently donated to the Jedi as Anakin's assistant droid during the Clone Wars. Following that he (And C-3PO) were pushed into Bail Organa's service, and they were acting in that capacity when they landed on Tatooine in Episode IV. So as far as I can tell, R2 never 'belonged' to Obi-Wan in any practical sense, although R2 may have simply said that because it was an easier excuse than explaining the full situation.

[An Enemy Spy]

He was Anakin's droid. Though I'm pretty sure Obi Wan is just playing dumb because R2 obviously knows who he is.

[Dargaron]

Way back in the mists of time, when Attack of the Clones was recently released, I remember reading a Star Wars magazine that talked about the little red R4 unit in Obi-Wan's ship, and whether or not that meant Obi-Wan had been lying when he said he didn't remember owning a droid. The interviewee made the comment that technically, R4 belonged to the Jedi Temple, and Obi-Wan was simply borrowing it on a long-term basis.

Basically, the Jedi like their technicalities and/or semantic loopholes.

[warty goblin]

It's possible he also just, you know, forgot he 'owned' R4.

[Devonix]

Way back in the mists of time, when Attack of the Clones was recently released, I remember reading a Star Wars magazine that talked about the little red R4 unit in Obi-Wan's ship, and whether or not that meant Obi-Wan had been lying when he said he didn't remember owning a droid. The interviewee made the comment that technically, R4 belonged to the Jedi Temple, and Obi-Wan was simply borrowing it on a long-term basis.

Basically, the Jedi like their technicalities and/or semantic loopholes.

Better explanation. Lucas Forgot or didn't care.

[An Enemy Spy]

It's possible he also just, you know, forgot he 'owned' R4.

He didn't own R4 anymore than I own the truck I drive at work. R4 was provided for him to use along with the fighter by the Jedi Temple. And again, he was playing dumb to obscure his true identity. Can we please for once have a Star Wars thread that isn't just bashing on Lucas for "plot holes" that have easy and obvious answers? Obi Wan and the droids are all lying to Luke at the beginning. Obi Wan pretends he doesn't recognize the droids, R2 pretends to be malfunctioning and then tries to convince Luke to hand him over to Obi Wan by saying he's his property, and C-3PO pretends not to know who Princess Leia is despite having mentioned that she won't escape this time when the Empire catches the Tantive VI. They're all trying not to go give away that they're involved with the rebellion.

[Peelee]

And again, he was playing dumb to obscure his true identity.

The identity that he readily and openly revealed like two minutes later with no prompting at all?

C-3PO pretends not to know who Princess Leia is despite having mentioned that she won't escape this time when the Empire catches the Tantive VI. They're all trying not to go give away that they're involved with the rebellion.


C-3P0: With all we've been through, sometimes I'm amazed we're in as good condition as we are, what with the Rebellion and all.
Luke: You know of the Rebellion against the Empire?
C-3P0: That's how we came to be in your service, if you take my meaning, sir.
Luke: Have you been in many battles?
C-3P0: Several, I think.

He's a crafty one, alright.:smalltongue:

[An Enemy Spy]

Fine, whatever. I'm stupid and deserve to be roasted. Everyone make fun of me for being such a dumb worthless person who is never right about anything and has no valid opinions about anything. I don't even know why I involve myself in these conversations because I invariably end up looking bad. Just so tired of everything in geek culture being so relentlessly negative and critical all the time. It's exhausting and it makes me irritable which then turns into self-loathing.

[Darth Ultron]

I do think Obi-Wan ever owned a droid. R2-D2 was owned by the Naboo Royal Space Agency, and was latter assigned to Padmae, or she was given him/bought the driod. Later she let Anikin use him/gave him ownership? After the two are married, of course.

R4 was owned by the Jedi Temple.

Though EVEN if Obi-Wan DID own a droid at some point, like in one of those silly 'pew pew' cartoons, as Ben Kenobi he would still say ''I have never owned a droid'' as that is what ''Ben the Hermit'' would say. Ben would likey say all sorts of things like ''I have never been in one of them fancy spaceships'' and other such things.

[Peelee]

Fine, whatever. I'm stupid and deserve to be roasted. Everyone make fun of me for being such a dumb worthless person who is never right about anything and has no valid opinions about anything. I don't even know why I involve myself in these conversations because I invariably end up looking bad. Just so tired of everything in geek culture being so relentlessly negative and critical all the time. It's exhausting and it makes me irritable which then turns into self-loathing.

Whoah, hold up. Nobody makes perfect points all the time. And nobody's making fun of you. I totally get where your coming from, and I agree with your overall point. I just wanted to poke at a couple points and try to add a little levity in there. I'm sorry if I hit a few buttons there. Hope there rest of your night/weekend gets better!

[Clertar]

Ben would likey say all sorts of things like ''I have never been in one of them fancy spaceships'' and other such things.

That's so like Ben. How is that guy, anyway?

[Kyberwulf]

"Whoah, hold up. Nobody makes perfect points all the time. And nobody's making fun of you. I totally get where your coming from, and I agree with your overall point. I just wanted to poke at a couple points and try to add a little levity in there. I'm sorry if I hit a few buttons there. Hope there rest of your night/weekend gets better!"

I don't know, this seems like textbook gaslighting to me. *add a little blue smile face to make it look like I am joking.*

[Peelee]

"Whoah, hold up. Nobody makes perfect points all the time. And nobody's making fun of you. I totally get where your coming from, and I agree with your overall point. I just wanted to poke at a couple points and try to add a little levity in there. I'm sorry if I hit a few buttons there. Hope there rest of your night/weekend gets better!"

I don't know, this seems like textbook gaslighting to me. *add a little blue smile face to make it look like I am joking.*

Ok, feel free to take anything I said there and demonstrate how I'm gaslighting. If I was making fun of them, I'm pretty sure that's an infraction, so feel free to tag it and see if the mods agree. If anyone has only ever made flawless arguments, I'd love to hear about that person, they'd be crazy interesting. If you think I'm not sorry about provoking that strong a reaction, well, that's your own thing.

Don't just accuse me of gaslighting. Put your money where your mouth is.

[Vinyadan]

This is frankly not how I was expecting this thread to go.

[druid91]

I mean. Obiwan in the prequels seemed pretty Luddite. Or did we forget 'Flying is For Droids'?

It's not hard to imagine he just forgot or didn't care that at one point he had a droid to fly him around as part of his life with the Jedi. It had been nearly twenty something years after all.

[Vinyadan]

Jedis cutting soldier droids to pieces because they are afraid that they will steal their jobs is probably the funniest Star Wars thing I've read this year :biggrin:

[Sapphire Guard]

R2 is lying. He's saying 'I belong to Obi Wan' because he's hoping that will get him closer to him, and 'I have a message for him from the rebel alliance' runs the risk of being turned over to the empire.

Obi Wan says he never owned a droid because he didn't, R4 was a droid he used during the Clone Wars that was blown up, so he knows R4's not back from the dead to deliver a message.

He's just saying 'I didn't ever own any droids, it's odd that this one says he belongs to me'.

He's just saying the most relevant part, like 'Yoda taught me' instead of 'Yoda taught me, then Qui Gonn, and Shaak Ti subbed in for a few weeks when he was injured, and then Ki Adi Mundi taught me that one etiquette class.'

[Traab]

"So what I told you was true, from a certain point of view" Obi-wan was great with the word games. He never directly owned a droid, that doesnt mean he had no idea who these two were. He knew exactly who they were. At least that was more honest than his "vader killed your father" line. Now THAT was some serious flat out lying no matter how he tried to justify it.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

"So what I told you was true, from a certain point of view" Obi-wan was great with the word games. He never directly owned a droid, that doesnt mean he had no idea who these two were. He knew exactly who they were. At least that was more honest than his "vader killed your father" line. Now THAT was some serious flat out lying no matter how he tried to justify it.
If we assume him to be speaking literally, which reasonable people would assume, then yeah, it's an outright lie.

But his statement does work on a metaphorical level. The persona that is Darth Vader killed the good man Anakin, replacing him, at least in Obi-Wan's mind. (From this, we can conclude that he had given up on Anakin ever being redeemed. To him, Vader had become the permanent identity.)

[Traab]

If we assume him to be speaking literally, which reasonable people would assume, then yeah, it's an outright lie.

But his statement does work on a metaphorical level. The persona that is Darth Vader killed the good man Anakin, replacing him, at least in Obi-Wan's mind. (From this, we can conclude that he had given up on Anakin ever being redeemed. To him, Vader had become the permanent identity.)

You could just as easily say that anakin murdered himself, allowing vader to take over. Neither is true, the reality is that anakin fell to the dark side and was given the title of vader. Its still anakin skywalker, his body (whats left of it) still lives, as does his mind and soul. There is misleading, "I dont remember ever owning a droid" and then there is flat out lying. "Naw man really, this dude called vader came and and went PEW PEW PEW! Straight up GANKED your daddy yo!"

[Keltest]

Ive always understood his "from a certain point of view" line to be "yes, I deliberately deceived you, but you shouldn't let this information alter your opinion of Vader." Vader was still a bad guy who Obi-wan considered to have fully embraced evil. He wasn't a Jedi Knight anymore and should be treated as an enemy.

[Yora]

I think it would all have been so much better if Obi-Wan had just admited clearly that he lied to help Luke instead of saying "So what I told you was true". He denies that he lied when it's clear that he lied. Had he admited that he lied with good intentions, I don't think anyone would have been bothered by it.

[Peelee]

I think it would all have been so much better if Obi-Wan had just admited clearly that he lied to help Luke instead of saying "So what I told you was true". He denies that he lied when it's clear that he lied. Had he admited that he lied with good intentions, I don't think anyone would have been bothered by it.

I think not telling an orphaned teenager that his dad is Space Hitler is pretty clearly lying with good intentions. I'm fully with Keltest here.

[Traab]

I think it would all have been so much better if Obi-Wan had just admited clearly that he lied to help Luke instead of saying "So what I told you was true". He denies that he lied when it's clear that he lied. Had he admited that he lied with good intentions, I don't think anyone would have been bothered by it.

Yeah, even trying the, "I didnt want to have to tell you your father is a horrible mass child murdering monster." As a way to explain why. After all, luke needed training, he wouldnt have gone anywhere with ben had he gone, "Oh yeah, your dad? Dudes a genocidal lunatic in service to an even worse monster. In fact, according to the force, he is torturing a young woman right now who he doesnt realize is also his kid. I want to teach you how to kill your dad. So, ready to head out?"

[Vinyadan]

There's a line in ep1

OBI-WAN: It is not disrespect, Master, it is the truth.

QUI-GON: From your point of view....

And there Ben learnt something, but he may have learnt it wrong.

[Fyraltari]

Keltest is right. That doesn't mean Ben wasn't lying though, since he knew very well what Luke understood. It's just that to him the difference between that and the reality of the fact was on a Need To Know basis and Luke did not Need To Know (and indeed that Luke Needed Not To Know), it was true from a certain point of view, and that point of view was good enough for Obi-Wan's purposes.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by An Enemy Spy
Can we please for once have a Star Wars thread that isn't just bashing on Lucas for "plot holes" that have easy and obvious answers?

Yes to this.

It seems like every single Star Wars thread devolves into relentless negativity about the stories in general, and rather unhinged hatred of Lucas in particular. It’s one reason why I’ve largely stopped participating in these threads, because I’m tired of being openly attacked for actually liking aspects of the Star Wars universe, or worse yet enjoying certain recent movies.

There really is a toxic climate about Star Wars that's developed, and it’s unpleasant enough that more and more I just avoid the entire Media section of the Playground. I’ve always loved discussing Star Wars for the pure enjoyment of it, but that’s not possible here anymore.

[Peelee]

Yes to this.

It seems like every single Star Wars thread devolves into relentless negativity about the stories in general, and rather unhinged hatred of Lucas in particular. It’s one reason why I’ve largely stopped participating in these threads, because I’m tired of being openly attacked for actually liking aspects of the Star Wars universe, or worse yet enjoying certain recent movies.

There really is a toxic climate about Star Wars that's developed, and it’s unpleasant enough that more and more I just avoid the entire Media section of the Playground. I’ve always loved discussing Star Wars for the pure enjoyment of it, but that’s not possible here anymore.

Again, I'm all for shedding the Star Wars bashing bandwagon, and there are absolutely things that just annoy the hell out of me (like the "stormtroopers can't hit anything" argument, for instance). That said, being able to enjoy something and being able to recognize flaws in said thing are not mutually exclusive, and there's always going to be a newer generation of fans who have yet to realize that there are inconsistencies like Obi-Wan's Harry Potter apprentice with a super important prophecy that likely applies to him was running around with a droid that they relied on like all the time and can recognize instantly even though there should be millions more like him, yet somehow fail to recognize him later on in the desert. Yes, it's absolutely a tired old argument for those who have been nerding out over Star Wars for decades, but there are also differences between saying "hay this seems pretty odd" and bullying an actress so badly on the internet that she wipes all her social media accounts.

Hell, I remember back when the prequels were coming out, and people stated they did not like them and they weren't up to the quality of the OT. I remember a very loud and notable counter to this was to wave such opinions off, saying that only nostalgia was why they thought the prequels weren't as good. Such people weren't interested in hearing people's opinions on problems they had with the movies, they were just trying to insulate themselves into an echo chamber where Star Wars could do no wrong.

I'm kind of seeing the same thing currently, although the waters are far murkier; there are people who have legitimate, non-******* complaints about the new movies coming out, and a very loud majority of the responses - at least in major media, and a fair bit of social media, though that bit is very subjective - are only addressing the ******* complaints, like "oh boo hoo there are fewer white people in my movies this is turning into a race war," and ignoring actual issues that others are trying to talk about.

I can also totally understand if you'd rather not want to rehash the same old things all the time as well; after all, just because there's always a newer generation that is realizing some of the disconnects doesn't mean that we still haven't been over them a million times, and it absolutely gets tiring after a while. But lumping "any talk about things in Star Wars that seem odd or problematic" with "man some people are just terrible and they've gotten really loud and the internet isn't helping man this is a dumpster fire" doesn't help.

[Lord Joeltion]

Keltest is right. That doesn't mean Ben wasn't lying though, since he knew very well what Luke understood. It's just that to him the difference between that and the reality of the fact was on a Need To Know basis and Luke did not Need To Know (and indeed that Luke Needed Not To Know), it was true from a certain point of view, and that point of view was good enough for Obi-Wan's purposes.

If Ben Kenobi could actually be called a liar it's because he didn't disclose the full truth, not because he was misleading a young impressionable farmer with ambivalent statements. He actually lied by omission because he was full aware of the "true" story, but his first statement isn't as inaccurate as it seems at first sight, because for all intents and purposes the persona known as Anakin Skywalker was dead.

Anakin didn't just switched sides during his downfall. He destroyed the Jedi and its Legacy, a legacy he had been working alongside for more than a decade. He disfigured and crippled himself beyond recognition; killed his wife and committed the equivalent of destroying a noble house (technically, since the kids were finally saved). It's more likely than not that the public and even most of the people who kept some sort of power after the rise of the Empire believed the galactic hero known as General Skywalker had perished alongside his comrades; while the Emperor recruited this mysterious Vader guy out of the blue shortly thereafter. Anakin didn't just "killed himself" in the metaphorical sense, but also on every other sense except the biological one. Anakin Skywalker, the hero, is the diametric opposite of Darth Vader, the dictator; that wasn't just Obi-Wan self-deluding himself to justify having to destroy an old brother-in-arms. Old Ben was embellishing the truth, sure; but it wasn't as far from it as to call it a white lie, IMHO. At least I wouldn't call it manipulative or deceptive for not revealing the whole story right there when he had just met the kid. He was probably looking for a more proper time to do it, but Vader got there first (since Luke wasn't supposed to face him at the time in any case).

[Fyraltari]

First a lie by omission is still a lie.
Second Vader is anakin, he still considers Obi-Wan his former master, Padmée his wife and Luke & Leia his children. He has changed as much as one can but he is still the same person.

[Bohandas]

R2 was part of the Royal Security Force of Naboo initially, and was apparently donated to the Jedi as Anakin's assistant droid during the Clone Wars. Following that he (And C-3PO) were pushed into Bail Organa's service, and they were acting in that capacity when they landed on Tatooine in Episode IV. So as far as I can tell, R2 never 'belonged' to Obi-Wan in any practical sense, although R2 may have simply said that because it was an easier excuse than explaining the full situation.

I got the impression that R2 never even actually technically said that outright; that that was just Luke's interpretation of his behavior

[Aeson]

I got the impression that R2 never even actually technically said that outright; that that was just Luke's interpretation of his behavior
During the scene where R2-D2 shows Luke a fragment of Leia's message to Obi-Wan Kenobi, C-3PO translates a response from R2-D2 as "he says that he is the property of an Obi-Wan Kenobi..." Unless C-3PO mistranslated R2-D2's response or was lying about its content, R2-D2 did claim to belong to Obi-Wan Kenobi.

[Friv]

I'm kind of seeing the same thing currently, although the waters are far murkier; there are people who have legitimate, non-******* complaints about the new movies coming out, and a very loud majority of the responses - at least in major media, and a fair bit of social media, though that bit is very subjective - are only addressing the ******* complaints, like "oh boo hoo there are fewer white people in my movies this is turning into a race war," and ignoring actual issues that others are trying to talk about.

I can also totally understand if you'd rather not want to rehash the same old things all the time as well; after all, just because there's always a newer generation that is realizing some of the disconnects doesn't mean that we still haven't been over them a million times, and it absolutely gets tiring after a while. But lumping "any talk about things in Star Wars that seem odd or problematic" with "man some people are just terrible and they've gotten really loud and the internet isn't helping man this is a dumpster fire" doesn't help.

Here's the thing.

Star Wars fandom has always included a very loud, sizeable minority who were willing to draw knives over relatively minor differences in canon. People whose opinions might not be wrong, but whose reactions and attitudes about those opinions were extremely nasty. The fandom as a whole has generally wavered between just ignoring them and hoping they'll go away, engaging with them as though their attitudes aren't poisonous, and watching them with horrified fascination, which encourages them.

These are the people who would roundly mock anyone who liked Ewoks, and who proudly stated that in their Star Wars the Ewoks were all murdered, because Star Wars doesn't have a place for cuddly little sell-out teddy bears. They were the people who started mutual flamewars about Jedi vs. Mandalorians in which they called their opponents Nazis for liking one more than the other. They were the people who said that the prequels weren't just bad, they were a direct attack on their childhoods, and Star Wars was dead. They declared Star Wars dead when the Yuuzong Vong stories happened.

They declare Star Wars dead a lot.

This time around, they got more traction, because when Disney scrapped the EU they got real loud, and they had the Internet to signal boost. And when Force Awakens came out, it rode on a tide of general public excitement that muted the anger, but I remember a lot of people saying a lot of nasty things about it.

But then Last Jedi came out, and it didn't have the "first new one in ages" protection, so the swamp hit it dead-on. And yeah, some people didn't like it for other reasons. That wasn't the problem. The ways that people reacted were the problem.

And then a lot of people waded out to defend Star Wars, like they always do, because we are very bad at admitting when people in our tribe are being bad. They latch onto the most dubious attacks against complainers, rather than looking at the swamp that is Star Wars fandom and always has been. People are constructing their identities around their idea of Star Wars, and treating someone making a movie they didn't like as if it were a terrorist attack on their ideology and beliefs, and if someone points that out, they get attacked for hating "all Star Wars fans" instead for rightly calling out terrible behaviour.

[Bohandas]

I think not telling an orphaned teenager that his dad is Space Hitler is pretty clearly lying with good intentions. I'm fully with Keltest here.

You mean Space Heinrich Himmler. The Emperor is Space Hitler.

[Peelee]

You mean Space Heinrich Himmler. The Emperor is Space Hitler.

Eh, true enough, but when you're in the Megahitlers on the Evil scale, po-tay-to po-tah-to.:smallwink: