Replace module's red dragon

[Mike Miller]

I am running the Shackled City and I want to replace Hookface with a different kind of dragon. What are some suggestions for good dragon threats? Hookface's role in the module, for those who don't know, is basically to terrorize the city in one encounter, kill a PC, steal loot, and fly away. I was thinking brainstealer dragon, but it seems too powerful? I want a CR around 18-20, but capability to achieve the above goals is more important than the CR. I don't mind having the dragon be outside of its normal plane of existence, but I don't want an undead dragon. Thanks for any suggestions!

[BowStreetRunner]

An old Deep Dragon (DotU) would be CR 19 and should be able to accomplish your goals.

[Mike Miller]

Deep dragon seems like a good choice. Does anyone have experience using non-core dragons? I'm interested in hearing how parties handled dragons they weren't familiar with. There is a pyroclastic dragon later in the AP, so that option is out. I want a good surprise instead of the standard red dragon. I haven't used any non core dragon as of yet though.

[Fizban]

Going further than the Deep Dragon, an ancient Styx Dragon for CR 19 is something most people probably never see. Instead of flying barrage of natural weapons, swimming/burrowing constricting serpent style. They have some DR/good so plain magic weapons aren't a complete bypass, and a fort breath weapon that deals int damage which ought to scare the pants off a spellcaster. Or a Rust Dragon: same DR trick but better 'cause who brings a chaos weapon?, and completely screws people who attack with metal weapons, or basically anyone who uses any metal in anything. Of course there's the question of why a planar dragon is hanging around in the first place, but I'm sure you can find some excuse.

I haven't seen anyone's reaction to unfamiliar dragons- personally I'd recognize most of them anyway. Usually seems to be split weather the players actually know the dragon types, or do know but refuse to use the metagame knowledge without an in-character knowledge roll. I feel that any player savvy enough to respond to dragons they know is probably savvy enough to respond well to dragons they don't know.

[Mike Miller]

Going further than the Deep Dragon, an ancient Styx Dragon for CR 19 is something most people probably never see. Instead of flying barrage of natural weapons, swimming/burrowing constricting serpent style. They have some DR/good so plain magic weapons aren't a complete bypass, and a fort breath weapon that deals int damage which ought to scare the pants off a spellcaster. Or a Rust Dragon: same DR trick but better 'cause who brings a chaos weapon?, and completely screws people who attack with metal weapons, or basically anyone who uses any metal in anything. Of course there's the question of why a planar dragon is hanging around in the first place, but I'm sure you can find some excuse.

I haven't seen anyone's reaction to unfamiliar dragons- personally I'd recognize most of them anyway. Usually seems to be split weather the players actually know the dragon types, or do know but refuse to use the metagame knowledge without an in-character knowledge roll. I feel that any player savvy enough to respond to dragons they know is probably savvy enough to respond well to dragons they don't know.

I do like the Rust dragon idea. I understand what you're saying, but my players are mostly "inexperienced" with 3.5, so I can still surprise them with things. I think a rusting dragon would be rather unexpected.

[Segev]

I would like to start by asking why Hookface is unsatisfying. Knowing that will help determine what kind of thing you need to replace him with.

[Mike Miller]

I would like to start by asking why Hookface is unsatisfying. Knowing that will help determine what kind of thing you need to replace him with.

Red dragons are too expected. When you hear old, evil dragon, you think red. I just want something less common, but still quite dangerous.

[BowStreetRunner]

Red dragons are too expected. When you hear old, evil dragon, you think red. I just want something less common, but still quite dangerous.Sounds like you're trying to overcome the meta-gaming issue. So when the party immediately assumes it's a fire breathing dragon and prepare defenses against fire, for instance, they'll be caught off-guard.

[Segev]

Red dragons are too expected. When you hear old, evil dragon, you think red. I just want something less common, but still quite dangerous.

Is the surprise really necessary? Have your players faced old, evil, red dragons before enough that it's ho-hum? Don't underestimate the satisfaction of facing something iconic, if it hasn't been done by your players before.

That said, if all you're after is novelty, just change the dragon's color. Up its age category if needs be to match CR. A white dragon with an added ability to create ice slicks that function as grease spells for everybody without Icewalking (while letting him cling to sides of buildings and such using that ability) could be interesting.

[Mike Miller]

Sounds like you're trying to overcome the meta-gaming issue. So when the party immediately assumes it's a fire breathing dragon and prepare defenses against fire, for instance, they'll be caught off-guard.

Actually, there was a CR 23 red dragon in my last campaign. I don't want a repeat dragon. They will hear tales of Hookface before fighting him, so his abilities won't be a complete surprise. However, I want to use a less common enemy because we have most of the 3.5 library between everyone yet don't use it all.

[Mike Miller]

Is the surprise really necessary? Have your players faced old, evil, red dragons before enough that it's ho-hum? Don't underestimate the satisfaction of facing something iconic, if it hasn't been done by your players before.

That said, if all you're after is novelty, just change the dragon's color. Up its age category if needs be to match CR. A white dragon with an added ability to create ice slicks that function as grease spells for everybody without Icewalking (while letting him cling to sides of buildings and such using that ability) could be interesting.

Yes they have done red dragons and there is a pyroclastic dragon in the campaign elsewhere. I like white dragons, but I really want something outside of the monster manual.

[Fizban]

Hmmm. I suppose I've technically "faced" most of the chromatics via running RHoD, and I did have thoughts for a re-write of one of the better areas to use a white instead, so I suppose I can't say that I got bored of them without seeing them used. Still, I look at all those cool planar dragons and want something more. . . interesting. Of course to really take the formula out of the dragon you have to just flat take the formula out of the dragon, either write up certain stablocks as standard for monster dragons and/or have them exist pretty much entirely as unique creatures (impervious to knowledge checks).

Anyway, for the rust, based on the picture you could have some NPCs arguing over how "red" the dragon was- or based on the text you could have them wondering about how one of the supposedly good metallic dragons has gone bad. Do need to be careful how much gear you actually destroy, especially since you're playing a pre-made adventure.

[Mike Miller]

Anyway, for the rust, based on the picture you could have some NPCs arguing over how "red" the dragon was- or based on the text you could have them wondering about how one of the supposedly good metallic dragons has gone bad. Do need to be careful how much gear you actually destroy, especially since you're playing a pre-made adventure.

I do like the idea of describing it as a metallic dragon, except evil. That is a good twist. "What could have happened to good old Hookface to make him this way?" Hehe (evil smile)

[Segev]

Yes they have done red dragons and there is a pyroclastic dragon in the campaign elsewhere. I like white dragons, but I really want something outside of the monster manual.

There is a character in a web serial (Worm) called "Hookwolf." The actual nuts and bolts of his power are largely irrelevant, just how he...appears.

He is a mass of shifting, twining, whirling razor-sharp metal hooks of all sorts. He usually forms himself into a giant wolf-shape, but in theory is more an amorphous blob. Think the T-1000 liquid metal Terminator, but made of millions of small hooks linked together and able to move about under the will of the singular creature it represents.

Or, as one fanfic described a character with the same power, a "razor-shoggoth."

Take a Phasm (yes, it's in the MM), and then up-scale it to Gargantuan or Colossal, and replace its Slam with something much more damaging and that does Slashing damage. Then let it assume forms as per the Phasm's shapechange, but cause it to always look like its made of razor-sharp hooks snarled together.



There's also the Kraken. Make it able to conjure clouds and give it a cloud-swim ability, and you can have it fly overhead and seek to flood the streets.



Or you could take inspiration from the design of Evangelion's angels. Sahaquiel (https://youtu.be/Ii7_rbiTuKE?t=149) is pretty frightening and awe-inspiring, as is Ramiel (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=US5yoHbv-6Q).

[Mike Miller]

There's also the Kraken. Make it able to conjure clouds and give it a cloud-swim ability, and you can have it fly overhead and seek to flood the streets.

That is thouroughly amusing and I will add that to my list of contenders.

[zlefin]

how about one of the epic dragons? (force and prismatic, though I guess they're young rather than old) statblock says they're only usually neutral, so an evil one would be fine.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonEpic.htm

[DwarvenWarCorgi]

Purple Dragon out of Dragon Compendium matches most of your criteria.

[Mike Miller]

Good call. I think I have narrowed it down to purple or rust dragon. Both sound good