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Pinjata
2018-07-14, 10:45 AM
Hey!

Yes, plains, not planes. Lots of flatland, some hills, some small forests, some boulders, rocks, lots of rain and sun, birds, bees and ... a summoning portal for lowest level demons from the Abyss. Dretch, Manes and Quasits, to be more precise.

With(unwanted, but hey, PCs will be PCs) help of my PCs, a small summoning portal has appeared south of Wood of Sharp Fangs in Faerun. Every day 1d3 demons of mentioned kind pop out. This portal IS in a small dungeon, but all entries are unblocked - so summoned baddies can roam out as they will.

My question is - what would summoned (not Gate-d) demons do in such an environment? They are chaos, so I was thinking some grass fires for starters. The'd probably be horrybly inept at catching animals, but they might scout out, to find something more interesting then grass to burn and squirrels to torture.

Can you give me any adittional advice on this?

thanks

Haldir
2018-07-14, 11:59 AM
Hey!

Yes, plains, not planes. Lots of flatland, some hills, some small forests, some boulders, rocks, lots of rain and sun, birds, bees and ... a summoning portal for lowest level demons from the Abyss. Dretch, Manes and Quasits, to be more precise.

With(unwanted, but hey, PCs will be PCs) help of my PCs, a small summoning portal has appeared south of Wood of Sharp Fangs in Faerun. Every day 1d3 demons of mentioned kind pop out. This portal IS in a small dungeon, but all entries are unblocked - so summoned baddies can roam out as they will.

My question is - what would summoned (not Gate-d) demons do in such an environment? They are chaos, so I was thinking some grass fires for starters. The'd probably be horrybly inept at catching animals, but they might scout out, to find something more interesting then grass to burn and squirrels to torture.

Can you give me any adittional advice on this?

thanks

A Quasit has approximately human mental stats, so anything really raucous is on the table.

War_lord
2018-07-14, 02:42 PM
You didn't specify edition. But to quote MToF:

"To bring about these changes, the invaders must remain in the same location for some time, usually an area no more than six miles on a side, to combine their influence. Fortunately for their would-be victims, the chaotic evil Nature of Demons means that they rarely organize in a way to cause such a disturbance. Demons that enter the world are bent on destruction, not concerned with greater matters, and inclined to go their separate ways unless a powerful leader can keep them under control long enough for the virus to take hold"

So, probably all wander off in separate directions killing everything in their path until someone figures out there's an open portal somewhere and closes it. It's not likely to turn into a greater crisis unless the demons have someone or something organizing them. If there is something organizing them to stay in one area, over time that area will become more and more corrupted by the Abyss, and that corruption will start to spread. Left unchecked a greater portal will open and you'd be facing a full on invasion. But all that requires a cult, greater demon, or some other entity capable of bullying the demons into staying in the same area.

Spore
2018-07-14, 07:32 PM
One word: Destroy.

Demons are the exemplars of malefic destruction, they would just destroy senselessly.

Nifft
2018-07-14, 07:59 PM
Know what grows great on the plains?

Children of the Corn.

"Psst, hey kid. The one true god has a mission for you. You need to kill all the grown-ups and start a new, better civilization. One based on sacrifice to my Abyssal mast-- er, I mean, one based on true virtue. Which sometimes means sacrifice. I'll fill you in on those details later."


One word: Destroy.

Demons are the exemplars of malefic destruction, they would just destroy senselessly.

To me that's kinda boring. I prefer demons who corrupt.

The succubus or incubus who creates new half-fiend life. The vrock whose spores are vile and tainted vines. That weird evil blimp thing that gives you free evil grafts.

This also helps explain why there are so many demons in the infinitude of the Abyss: they create. What they create is horrible and twisted and vile, but there's a lot of it specifically because they keep making more, instead of just destroying each other.

Pinjata
2018-07-15, 04:34 AM
Great input. I'd ask for some more advice on further development. Eventually, a few Shadow demons and a Succubi will be summoned.

Would these ramp up organization level? What would their goals be? I have hard time imagining anything very organized, but surely, there would be some impact.

Spore
2018-07-15, 05:00 AM
To me that's kinda boring. I prefer demons who corrupt.


The problem with demons is that their limitless number is their strength. A numeric game system has trouble displaying infinite hordes though so they break them down to finite numbers and power them up. Demons are meant to be cannon fodder on the low ranks.

I always liked the difference between demon and devil thus:
- Devil numbers are finite because they draw their power out of contracts, bound souls and divine servants (clerics etc.).
- Demon numbers are infinite because they have a direct tab the vices of mankind. This source cannot be sealed off so they theoretically have infinite numbers and power.

But yes, demonic corruption is a nice theme, though I don't like the heavy-handed "blighted area" feel. Demons would spread out, whisper impossible sins into mortals' ears, make them gradually fall for their weaknesses. Of flesh, of mind, of wealth and wrath. They would drive the wild life insane. Deer would stab each other to death instead of testing their strength. Boars would destroy trees rather than just their bark. Wolves would transform into dire wolves. Plants would transform into plant monsters, strangling hapless travellers. Rabbits would multiply and overrun the area (except they wouldn't find any food and have to become more fierce to survive.

What I mean with blighted area is dead burned ground, dead trees and imps jumping about the woods and plains.


Great input. I'd ask for some more advice on further development. Eventually, a few Shadow demons and a Succubi will be summoned.


These are very focussed on humanoids. Shadow demons go after the humans with the highest charisma scores (no, really, they do want the hot ones), as would the Succubus. Though as the shadow demons are satisfied with ANY guy with high charisma, the Succubus wants an influencer.

Nifft
2018-07-15, 05:34 AM
Great input. I'd ask for some more advice on further development. Eventually, a few Shadow demons and a Succubi will be summoned.

Would these ramp up organization level? What would their goals be? I have hard time imagining anything very organized, but surely, there would be some impact.

Well, one thing is that Summoned creatures are not around for very long, and I don't think they can carry much loot back with them.

So they might try to obtain favors, and teach people how to summon them in more durable ways -- so they'd be free to act as they pleased, and carry loot back home, of course.

You might see a Glabrezu granting a wish, for example -- but the condition is that someone must win a bloody arena tournament where all fights were to the death. That's a bunch of evil, plus a way to use power that could corrupt the mortal, plus a show of individual strength -- all things that a demon might like.

Succubi might try to get pregnant, or just snack on mortal souls (via energy drain).

Incubi might try to leave behind a few pregnant mortals, or just snack-drain.

A Quasit might try to find someone who needs a new Familiar and substitute itself -- and a Quasit isn't above creating that opportunity by murdering a Familiar (and framing someone else for the "accident").


According to some 3.5e lore, when some demons got stuck on the Prime, they tinkered around and invented these lovely beasts:


http://i50.tinypic.com/2yk11c9.jpg


So, maybe they're making more strange aberrant monsters in their spare time.

Pinjata
2018-07-15, 07:26 AM
One update: they ARE summoned, but duration of summon is INFINITE. So they stay on Material plane untill they are killed and returned to Abyss.

kraitmarais
2018-07-15, 01:25 PM
They'd try to find food, water, and shelter.

Once that was secure, they may set about various other activities, depending on the type of demon in question.

Nifft
2018-07-15, 01:58 PM
They'd try to find food, water, and shelter.

Why?

You know these things are Outsiders (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#outsiderType), right?

JoeJ
2018-07-15, 03:07 PM
Why?

You know these things are Outsiders (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#outsiderType), right?

How would we know that? The OP didn't specify which game this is. "Outsider" is only a category in 3.x.

Nifft
2018-07-15, 03:28 PM
How would we know that? The OP didn't specify which game this is. "Outsider" is only a category in 3.x.

By context, since there aren't an unlimited number of games where this distinction makes sense:


summoned (not Gate-d) demons

That's from the OP, which everyone ought to have read.

-- -- --


One update: they ARE summoned, but duration of summon is INFINITE. So they stay on Material plane untill they are killed and returned to Abyss.

I'd imagine some of these demons would suss out the nature of their transport and suicide-by-violence specifically in order to go home, since they have something important to do back in the Abyss.

Others would have had nothing special going on back home, and would be delighted to have a fresh place to play. They would conceal themselves and might try for longer-term benefits. Or they might just stir up trouble -- the ones with nothing going on back home might be relatively uncreative dullards, after all.

kraitmarais
2018-07-15, 03:45 PM
Why?

You know these things are Outsiders (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#outsiderType), right?

In 5e most demons require these things (not all, e.g. shadow demon). But yeah maybe OP is in a different edition.


By context, since there aren't an unlimited number of games where this distinction makes sense:



That's from the OP, which everyone ought to have read.


Oh summoned vs gated matters in this way for 5e demons? I may be forgetting a rule.

JoeJ
2018-07-15, 04:26 PM
By context, since there aren't an unlimited number of games where this distinction makes sense:

That doesn't narrow it down nearly as much as you think it does.



Oh summoned vs gated matters in this way for 5e demons? I may be forgetting a rule.

As of XGtE, summoning, rather than gating, demons is a thing. As it also was in AD&D. I don't remember whether or not there was such a distinction in BECMI, and I don't know enough about 4e to comment. Depending on which magic system is in use, it could matter in GURPS as well. In M&M it would be the difference between the dimension travel power and the summon power. Those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

Even assuming that the reference to Faerun means the OP is using some form of D&D for the rules, that doesn't mean it has to be 3.x.

Nifft
2018-07-15, 04:42 PM
As of XGtE, summoning, rather than gating, demons is a thing.

I don't have that book -- what's the difference?

JoeJ
2018-07-15, 10:35 PM
I don't have that book -- what's the difference?

The biggest difference is that gate opens, well, a gate, that can be used in either direction by anything as long as it remains open. You can use it to draw a named creature through, but the spell doesn't give you any control over it.

Summoning, using either summon greater demon or summon lesser demon brings just the demons, without opening a gate that anything else can use. Summon greater demon allows you to comand the demon until it succeeds on a saving throw. Both spells let you also create a circle you can stand in to be protected from the demon's attacks.

If it was a magical effect that happens without a specific caster, a summoning would always bring one or more demons that wouldn't be able to return to the Abyss until the spell ends or they are reduced to 0 hp. A gate would be a portal that anything could go through in either direction for as long as it remains open, but nothing would necessarily come through.

meschlum
2018-07-15, 11:56 PM
Manes are essentially mindless aggression, so they'd wander about more or less at random, clawing and biting at whatever they run into.

Dretch are somewhat more clever, enough to have goals and preferences - still with a massive predisposition for violence, cruelty, and whatever they can get away with. They're still very lacking in long term planning, so the sort of things they'll be up to will be random property damage (including arson), heading out to look for more interesting victims (they realize that ambushes are useful) and, more dangerously, forming gangs. The first somewhat tougher one to stay around and bully others into following it (or herb a few manes about) might be able to set up a pack of about a dozen or so, intent on wreaking havoc. They'll fight and backstab each other so no really large group is possible, bu they're still capable of becoming more of a threat - especially if they run into other, weaker critters they can boss around. A pack of kobolds or goblins, perhaps.

Quasits are trouble. They realize that their best bet for continued existence and gaining power is to corrupt mortals, and they're as clever as humans on average - which is much more than you'd want them to be. After scouting about the plains for a bit, they'll probably scatter, and start causing all kinds of mischief. setting themselves up as minor godlings for local humanoid tribes (directing them to raid and bring back prisoners for torture and loot), allying themselves with ambitious mages or other magic users (an invisible 'friend' that can steal your rival's spellbook, plant evidence, and actually kill people you hate is great to have on your side...), of just outright sabotage. If they stay near the plains, they are capable of sufficient subtlety and planning to want to prepare a demonic horde, setting up one of the dretch as the 'visible' boss and ensuring larger numbers work together. With access to guidance from their masters, they might even work together - in time, you can probably expect a horde of a few hundred dretch and half a dozen quasit (plus as many manes as they can poke in a given direction). The gate being slow may be more of an obstacle here - quasits (and dretch) will grow impatient and wander off rather than wait for more numbers (especially when each of them believes it should be the boss). So in effect, you'd get gangs of thirty or so dretch with a few quasit scouts and advisors and all the manes they can grab.


Succubi prefer to let others do the mayhem, so they'd leave the plains fairly quickly - there's nothing there that interests them (unless an ambitious quasit has managed to raise a horde, in which case the succubus would move in and take over as the power behind the throne. Possibly even letting the quasit live). They're out to find civilization and devour it - either going to the heart where there are lots of targets to corrupt and ways to wreck things, or the edges where every family you wreck ruins a generation or two. A regular flow of succubi would encourage them to scatter and become ambitious as there would be lots of competition. Expect betrayals among them, though careful not to suggest that succubi are about - these demons are smart.

I'm not too sure about shadow demons. Probably scatter as well in order to spy on everything, find leaders who need a good intelligence network, and turn those into rather bloody affairs. Mix in murder and intrigue, and it should work. Again, they want to get to civilization where spying on people is important - or join an invading horde in order to maximize mayhem.

Eldan
2018-07-16, 02:52 AM
I agree that the Quasit are the biggest problem. Now, I don't remember their exact stat block in 5E (away from books), but in most editions, they are as smart as humans and can turn into animals. That means even if their gang of Dretches and Manes is scattered, they could just hide and bide their time. The nearby area may well be infected for decades. Some would perhaps seek out budding spellcasters to become their familiars. Others would attach themselves to gang leaders or some such. Given that they are very far down the totem pole back home, I'd imagine they have great experience in playing toady.

Dretches, though... Dretches are petty bullies. That's all the fluff ever really says about them. They are the lowest of the low in the Abyss, excepting Manes, and everyone kicks them around. The books are very clear that as soon as they are out from under the next bigger demon's heel, they turn to either cruelty or sloth. Some would probably just sit around, enjoying their freedom, maybe idly torturing some small animals or somesuch. Others would set out with the target to find someone to torture. In any case, you wouldnt' expect them to work together, as they absolutely hate being given any kind of order. They'd probably just all set out alone.

War_lord
2018-07-16, 07:57 AM
The key thing to remember with lower Demons is that they will not organize unless bullied into it. Even then any sort of organization will be rife with dysfunctional backstabbing as every demon will kill off any other demon who is even perceived to be of higher status then them. I do agree that a Quasit is the most dangerous of the options provided. It can (in 5e) use its invisibility action to stay hidden indefinitely thus getting around its physically fragility. A Quasit's usual MO is to find an ambitious spellcaster to serve, and then goad them towards chaotic evil. So I would expect it to find a spellcaster powerful enough to bully all the other demons and then just whisper into their ear dreams of conquest.

Nifft
2018-07-16, 08:08 AM
The key thing to remember with lower Demons is that they will not organize unless bullied into it.

You're overlooking the case where they bully each other into an organization.

War_lord
2018-07-16, 08:13 AM
You're overlooking the case where they bully each other into an organization.

No single Dretch, Manes or Quasit, is going to be able to pull that off through might, and thee Quasit is thee only one capable of having a sneaker plan.

Eldan
2018-07-16, 08:33 AM
Yeah, if one of a group of Dretches tried putting itself above the others, I'd expect that the rest would tear them to shreds.

Nifft
2018-07-16, 08:53 AM
Yeah, if one of a group of Dretches tried putting itself above the others, I'd expect that the rest would tear them to shreds.

Dretches would bully goblins / kobolds / etc.

They'd organize at whatever level they could reasonably dominate.

War_lord
2018-07-16, 08:58 AM
Dretches would bully goblins / kobolds / etc.

They'd organize at whatever level they could reasonably dominate.

One Dretch is not going to be able to bully a tribe of Goblins. It's slow (20ft), it can't communicate with them, it's not resistant to normal weapons, it has a low damage output, it has no ranged attack and it's much much dumber. Dretches are pretty wimpy unless in a horde, and a horde requires some level of control.

Eldan
2018-07-16, 09:09 AM
Yeah, it's probably more likely that it would end up chained up as a watch dog by the goblins.

Nifft
2018-07-16, 09:15 AM
One Dretch is not going to be able to bully a tribe of Goblins. It's slow (20ft), it can't communicate with them, it's not resistant to normal weapons, it has a low damage output, it has no ranged attack and it's much much dumber. Who said it would try to bully a whole tribe?

And just to pull the goalposts out of your hand so you stop trying to move them: the Quasit probably could bully a tribe of goblins, perhaps by targeting the leadership directly, and probably with the help of the Dretch (who has been bullied into cooperation by the Quasit).

That's how they'd organize: as petty warlords. (Ironic that I have to spell that out, given your user name.)



Yeah, it's probably more likely that it would end up chained up as a watch dog by the goblins. It might end up that way. Dretches are pretty pathetic by demon standards.

But I suspect it would end up that way because it tried to bully a goblin or two, and failed.

War_lord
2018-07-16, 09:37 AM
Who said it would try to bully a whole tribe?

And just to pull the goalposts out of your hand so you stop trying to move them: the Quasit probably could bully a tribe of goblins, perhaps by targeting the leadership directly, and probably with the help of the Dretch (who has been bullied into cooperation by the Quasit).

Even if the "tribe" is one Goblin Boss and 6 Goblins, one Dretch and one Quasit is hardly an intimidating foe for such a band. The Dretch is rock stupid and not even a combat threat. And even the Quasit is dramatically dumber then the goblins it's trying to intimidate. Even if it just lands on the Boss's shoulder invisibly and threatens to kill them if they don't follow orders, the Boss is just going to look for ways to fool the Quasit, which will not be hard given it's dumb as a Gnoll.

Less of the sass thanks, don't pull that tone when you clearly can't be bothered even looking up a stat block.

Pinjata
2018-07-16, 12:50 PM
OP here. It's 5e.

Quasits ARE pretty dumb in 5e (INT 7 (-2) WIS 10 (+0)), while Manes and Dretch are even worse.

I think we can conclude, there would be very little cooperation. I like the idea of them hanging around, doing nothing. Or wandering off.

I'm pretty sure Quasits are unable to intimidate anything.

It's interesting Shadow demons and Succubi would roam around, looking for people to corrupt.

Do you guys think it is a good plot for a Succubi to stay around and keep "portal" working "for the lulz"? Just to release as many little pests in Faerun as possible and then leave?

Eldan
2018-07-16, 02:06 PM
Huh. Interesting departure from 3.5, then, where a Quasit had Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 10, so better than human stats.