PDA

View Full Version : Beginner's advice on classes



Kurald Galain
2007-09-10, 06:01 PM
I would like to put together some simple advice on class choice for beginners. The idea is to give each class a few ratings so that new players can pick a class based on that, and not get the wrong idea. I'm sure this has been done several times before, so it should be fairly straightforward, but I'd like some feedback anyway.

I'm assuming low level = 1 through 6, moderate level = 7 through 12, high level = 13 through 20. The categories I thought of are combat (a measure of attacking or otherwise disabling enemies), toughness (a measure of survivability and resistance to enemy attacks), social (a measure of social skills or abilities) and misc (a measure of basically anything else that has some practical value in-game, like divinations and skills). Perhaps this needs a fifth category.

So we'd get something like this:
Fighter:
Combat: good at low levels, fair at moderate levels, poor at high levels
Toughness: good at low levels, fair at moderate/high levels
Social: poor
Misc: poor

Wizard:
Combat: good
Toughness: poor at low levels, fair at moderate/high levels
Social: fair
Misc: excellent

Rogue:
Combat: good
Toughness: fair
Social: fair
Misc: good

Bard:
Combat: fair, poor at high levels
Toughness: fair
Social: good
Misc: good

Monk:
Combat: fair, poor at high levels
Toughness: good
Social: poor
Misc: poor

Cleric:
Combat: fair, good at high levels
Toughness: good
Social: poor
Misc: good

Et cetera. Do you think this would be helpful to players? Am I missing something important?

TSGames
2007-09-10, 06:10 PM
I think I would put cleric at "fair" social skills. The cleric is fairly able to boost its social skills, and is likely to have a not bad CHA due to turning. Also, I would put the monk down for "good" at misc. because all that it really does well is misc. things.

I like the list. It's tricky to do because you need to assume that players are not using the most horribly broken builds, and that they are not using the most underpowered builds, so finding a middle ground that is acceptable to everyone will be impossible. I recommend to any new players reading this that they should play whatever style of character they can have fun with and worry about power later.

Spiryt
2007-09-10, 06:11 PM
Well, that's not bad, but there will be much controversies...

Even for beginners (and beginers are different, when I was starting in 3.5 I was trying to multiclass right away :smallwink: ) much depends on build. Fighter will have good toughness, but not against will things (usually), so it's little imprecise. Maybe slighty more detailed will be better.

Anyway, keep them coming.


P.S. Precise what grades are. Are there : poor, fair, good and excelent, or something more?

Solo
2007-09-10, 06:17 PM
I think I would put cleric at "fair" social skills. The cleric is fairly able to boost its social skills, and is likely to have a not bad CHA due to turning. Also, I would put the monk down for "good" at misc. because all that it really does well is misc. things.



Don't forget, Clerics have a GOD backing them up. In settings where the cleric's church is powerful, that can mean a lot.

Dausuul
2007-09-10, 06:19 PM
The idea is good, but I think it would be better to give a short description rather than a one-word rating. I'd also add a "Mechanics" category, for how easy the class is to handle mechanically; and change "Misc" to "Utility," which seems like a more accurate description.

So, for example:

FIGHTER
Combat: At low levels, fighters are sturdy combatants who can inflict heavy damage on foes. Later on, they become less and less effective, mostly because they lack the mobility to keep up with high-level monsters and spellcasters.
Toughness: Fighters can stand up to a good deal of physical punishment. Their heavy armor makes them relatively tough to hit, and they have hit points in plenty. Their main defensive weakness is their low Will save; fighters are easy targets for mind-control spells and the like.
Social: Fighters have a hard time contributing in a social situation. They have very few skill points, no reason to invest in Charisma, and no social skills are class skills for them (except Intimidate).
Utility: A fighter has little to offer outside of combat. Because of their lack of skills and magical powers, their utility abilities are mostly limited to kicking down doors and absorbing damage from traps the rogue fails to disarm.
Mechanics: Fighter mechanics are possibly the easiest in the game. They have only a few simple tricks (the primary one being "run up and whack it in the head"), and the mechanics for those tricks are quite easy to learn.

Spiryt
2007-09-10, 06:19 PM
Don't forget, Clerics have a GOD backing them up. In settings where the cleric's church is powerful, that can mean a lot.

But if they'r cleric of some weird and unpopular god, they don't mean much. Too much depends on fluff/game not from actual class design.

Solo
2007-09-10, 06:21 PM
Even so, it wouldn't be a good idea to offend the servant of a being more powerful than can possibly be imagined....

TSGames
2007-09-10, 06:23 PM
The idea is good, but I think it would be better to give a short description rather than a one-word rating. I'd also add a "Mechanics" category, for how easy the class is to handle mechanically; and change "Misc" to "Utility," which seems like a more accurate description.

Perhaps this should compliment it. It seemed to me, that the OP was attempting to create an easy to use quick glance rating system similar to a table. Perhaps the more in-depth descriptions you provided would make an excellent supplement?

DraPrime
2007-09-10, 06:24 PM
What about druids, paladins and sorcerers?

Dausuul
2007-09-10, 06:26 PM
Perhaps this should compliment it. It seemed to me, that the OP was attempting to create an easy to use quick glance rating system similar to a table. Perhaps the more in-depth descriptions you provided would make an excellent supplement?

But this was also supposed to be for beginners; and I think simple one-word descriptions can be misleading. For instance, one might see that a wizard is rated as "Good" in combat, and assume that means direct damage, when in fact direct damage is generally the weakest of the wizard's attack modes.

At the very least, there should be a key to indicate what each category means.

Spiryt
2007-09-10, 06:29 PM
Even so, it wouldn't be a good idea to offend the servant of a being more powerful than can possibly be imagined....

Well, it's also not a good idea to offend Frienzied Berserker . He doesn't have god on his side, but can power attack you for + 421 to dam. And cleric can be quiet, reserved guy, not able to intimidate anybody even as servant of some grat Bozo.

It's all possible desigh of character, not their actual mechanical strenght/weakness.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-10, 06:32 PM
Am I missing something important?

Yes, an accurate analysis and useful advice to new players.

All this is is categorizing things that have a *great* degree of customizability into fairly arbitrary labels for how "good" they are at rather undefined categories. Doesn't seem the least bit useful for helping newbies get a strong grasp of the game concepts. Saying things like "Clerics: Social: Poor" is pretty stupid when clerics have spells to give them great social powers, as well as Diplomacy as a class skill. Same goes for Wizard toughness. I know that when I play games with experienced players, Wizards can be a lot tougher to crack than many things you listed as having good toughness. Same goes for much of the rest of the stuff you've put down. And it all really varies by build.

At best, it's misleading to new players. :smallfrown:

Dr. Weasel
2007-09-11, 12:43 AM
Yes, an accurate analysis and useful advice to new players.
A bit harsh perhaps?


Saying things like "Clerics: Social: Poor" is pretty stupid when clerics have spells to give them great social powers, as well as Diplomacy as a class skill. Same goes for Wizard toughness.
This is definitely a valid point. Perhaps it is possible to label the monk and Barbarian accurately because they usually only have one style of build (usually being the key word), but the others, spellcasters especially have massive versatility. Just choosing between ranged and melee fighting drastically alters the classes abilities; having skillpoints to rearrange does just as much.


At best, it's misleading to new players.
Again, this is quite harsh. The problem with your guide is that it doesn't explain. Just writing down basic class descriptions that you'd normally give a new player and only pointing out the incredibly weak ones' power rankings (so a newbie doesn't find themselves trapped as a soulknife or samuri) would probably be more productive.

"Bards are a support class whose primary role is to provide party buffs. They have the second best skill list and the second most skill ranks in core. They gain a limited spell list focused on trickery and minor ability boosts though they have nowhere near the spellcasting capabilities of Wizards or Sorcerers" will probably be more productive for a player than vague rankings

Kurald Galain
2007-09-11, 05:50 AM
Okay, how about this:

Barbarian:
Strong points: good melee combatant, decent skills, good survivability
Weak points: not very customizable, mostly ineffectual outside combat

Bard
Strong points: excels at social situations, versatile, good at assisting other party members
Weak points: better at supporting others more than at doing things on his own; poor combatant, inferior spellcasting

Cleric
Strong points: excellent spellcaster and healer, good combatant especially at higher levels
Weak points: no real weaknesses, but relatively hard to learn for beginners

Druid
Strong points: excellent spellcaster, summoner, and combatant
Weak points: no real weaknesses, but relatively hard to learn for beginners

Fighter
Strong points: decent melee or ranged combatant, good survivability, easy to learn for beginners
Weak points: ineffectual outside combat; outside low levels, outdone in combat by most other classes

Monk
Strong points: good survivability
Weak points: generally ineffective both inside and outside combat; considered by many to be an inferior class; not very customizable

Ranger
Strong points: good melee or ranged combatant, decent stealth and versatility
Weak points: relatively ineffective in social situations

Rogue
Strong points: good melee combatant, highly versatile at non-combat situations, good stealth and social skills; highly customizable
Weak points: relatively vulnerable; weak when alone, and when fighting undead

Paladin
Strong points: good melee combatant, good survivability
Weak points: must adhere to code of honor; relatively difficult to learn for beginning players; not very customizable

Sorcerer
Strong points: excellent powerful and versatile spellcaster, capable of dealing with any situation inside and outside combat; highly customizable
Weak points: vulnerable, especially at lower levels; relatively hard to learn for beginners

Wizard
As sorcerer, only moreso: both more versatile and harder to learn.

banjo1985
2007-09-11, 05:56 AM
I think that's a better way to do it, but that it needs some more detail added as time goes on. Maybe a choice of appropriate 1st Lvl Feats for each class would be good to include, as well as some skills that they should look at picking up?

I don't see the point others are making about it all depending on customization. This is supposed to be for beginners, right? So they will most probably start out wanting to know what each class is made to do, rather than what they can be steered towards, that would probabaly come later.

Dausuul
2007-09-11, 07:56 AM
I really don't think you can boil it down to such short lists and still convey useful information. For one thing, you apply "relatively difficult to learn for beginners" to both paladin and cleric. But paladins are a lot easier to learn than any sort of full caster IMO, especially clerics with their Vancian casting and huge array of spells known. Rogues and barbarians are both "good melee combatants" by this guide, but barbarians far outperform rogues at raw damage-dealing, even with sneak attack taken into account. And the "good survivability" of a fighter makes no mention of the fighter's glaring defensive weakness--the Will save.

A guide has to explain clearly (if concisely) the reason for each of these traits, and perhaps give a few pointers on effective builds. I understand that you want this to be a short "quick-start" guide, but if you really want this to be something that can guide newbies to picking the class that's right for them, it has to give them a clear picture of what each class does and how it works.

daggaz
2007-09-11, 08:12 AM
I had a solid melee cleric who only had a six in charisma (he was a dwarf), but due to the fact that he had worked his way up on his battle prowess and high intelligence (14) into a ranking position as captain of the guards and the leader of the king's secret police, he had maxed out diplomacy and was beyond a doubt the best party face. The rogue was nowhere close.

Kurald Galain
2007-09-11, 08:47 AM
Hm, it strikes me that I can't be the first person to attempt such. I've been trying to find a FAQ at the wizards forum, but apparently there isn't one... does anyone know if such a FAQ exists? Or perhaps I should direct people to one of those "what character class are you" internet tests?

AKA_Bait
2007-09-11, 09:51 AM
Something missed here that I think is important to any beginners guide is a typical learning curve to be effective. Assuming a brand new player, there is a LOT to learn and some classes require a lot more than others.

My thoughts:

Fighter:
Learning Curve: Flat.
Basic combat followed by more complicated but less used rules like Bull Rush and Trip. A beginner can play one effectivley at low levels with minimal reading.

Wizard:
Learning Curve: Steep.
Wizards must prepare spells ahead of time and will have access to many spells. Some adjustment time as limited spells known to prepare and aquired over time. Familar to manage.

Rogue:
Learning Curve: Slight incline.
Sneak attack and some skill rules (search, disable device) must be learned at the outset. Otherwise not much past fighters.

Bard:
Learning Curve: Slight incline.
A handful of spells and bardic music abilities that are learned as levels progress.

Monk:
Learning Curve: Mostly Flat
Other than basic combat only a few abilities to learn that are learned as levels progress.

Cleric:
Learning Curve: Steep
Must prepare spells and has access to every cleric spell of a level they can cast as soon as they can cast it. Turn/Rebuke rules and spontaneous casting rules make this even more difficult.

Druid:
Learning Curve: Steep
Same broad spell access as a cleric. Broad range of monsters to learn for potential wildshape and summoning options. Animal companion to manage in combat.

Sorcerer:
Learning Curve: Semi-steep
Limited spells known per level without requirement to prepare ahead of time. Familiar to manage.

Barbarian:
Learning Curve: Mostly Flat.
Same as fighter except more complicated mathematical adjustments for rage to learn.

Chronos
2007-09-11, 09:58 AM
Barbarian:
Strong points: good melee combatant, decent skills, good survivability
Weak points: not very customizable, mostly ineffectual outside combatThe lack of customizability is also one of the barbarian's major advantages. Remember, this is geared towards beginners. A beginner playing a fighter might choose a set of feats which look good at first glance, but which don't actually work very well, and thereby weaken his character considerably. With a barbarian, though, there aren't really that many opportunities to make mistakes.

Also, the fluff for a barbarian tends to help guide people to better choices. In general, any sort of warrior class will do best in combat with a two-handed weapon and Power Attack, a combination which seems much more obvious for a barbarian than for a fighter. A shield or two-weapon fighting is likely to look more appealing for a fighter.

cheesecake
2007-09-11, 10:25 AM
Any class's social ability is only as good as the person playing.

Starbuck_II
2007-09-11, 10:31 AM
The idea is good, but I think it would be better to give a short description rather than a one-word rating. I'd also add a "Mechanics" category, for how easy the class is to handle mechanically; and change "Misc" to "Utility," which seems like a more accurate description.

So, for example:

FIGHTER
Combat: At low levels, fighters are sturdy combatants who can inflict heavy damage on foes. Later on, they become less and less effective, mostly because they lack the mobility to keep up with high-level monsters and spellcasters.
Toughness: Fighters can stand up to a good deal of physical punishment. Their heavy armor makes them relatively tough to hit, and they have hit points in plenty. Their main defensive weakness is their low Will save; fighters are easy targets for mind-control spells and the like.
Social: Fighters have a hard time contributing in a social situation. They have very few skill points, no reason to invest in Charisma, and no social skills are class skills for them (except Intimidate).
Utility: A fighter has little to offer outside of combat. Because of their lack of skills and magical powers, their utility abilities are mostly limited to kicking down doors and absorbing damage from traps the rogue fails to disarm.

I agree.


Mechanics: Fighter mechanics are possibly the easiest in the game. They have only a few simple tricks (the primary one being "run up and whack it in the head"), and the mechanics for those tricks are quite easy to learn.

Disagree.
They are the hardest. You have to choose feats carefully for them because that is all you get. You only have your feats to fall back on.

Compare to the other classes.

Cleric: can fall back o' healing if choose bad spells/feats
Barbarian: Fall back on rage if choose bad feats
Druid: You can eat people lol
Etc.

Dausuul
2007-09-11, 10:32 AM
Any class's social ability is only as good as the person playing.

That depends on how much weight the DM puts on the results of social skill checks. In my experience, DMs typically require the player to come up with some reasonable-sounding argument or ploy, then call for a Bluff or Diplomacy check to see if it actually works.

In that environment, playing a bard won't make you better at social stuff if you the player can't come up with plausible lies and convincing arguments, but playing a fighter with a Charisma 6 will prevent you from being good at social stuff even if you the player could talk penguins into buying refrigerators.


Disagree.
They are the hardest. You have to choose feats carefully for them because that is all you get. You only have your feats to fall back on.

Compare to the other classes.

Cleric: can fall back o' healing if choose bad spells/feats
Barbarian: Fall back on rage if choose bad feats
Druid: You can eat people lol
Etc.

Hmm, good point. Perhaps the guide should distinguish between "easy to build a character" and "easy to play the character." Something like this:

Mechanics: Designing an effective fighter can be a difficult task. Your class abilities depend heavily on your feat choices, and poor feat choice can result in a very weak combatant. Since combat is pretty much all fighters do, you want to be as good at it as possible. On the other hand, once the character is built, a fighter is usually quite simple to play.

AKA_Bait
2007-09-11, 10:38 AM
That depends on how much weight the DM puts on the results of social skill checks. In my experience, DMs typically require the player to come up with some reasonable-sounding argument or ploy, then call for a Bluff or Diplomacy check to see if it actually works.

In that environment, playing a bard won't make you better at social stuff if you the player can't come up with plausible lies and convincing arguments, but playing a fighter with a Charisma 6 will prevent you from being good at social stuff even if you the player could talk penguins into buying refrigerators.

I think this is half true. Even if the plausable stuff is not something the player can come up with a high enough bluff check can overcome a silly excuse. On the other hand, the most plausable lie in the world probably won't work from "Grog the charismaless fighter"

JackMage666
2007-09-11, 10:42 AM
Also, another common labelled "Magic" would be useful, as I wouldn't exactly call a Wizard Good at Combat. They get good Magic, yeah, but rushing in to kill things with a Sword, no. Combat seems like, y'know, physically fighting, not using spells.

goat
2007-09-11, 10:44 AM
That depends on how much weight the DM puts on the results of social skill checks. In my experience, DMs typically require the player to come up with some reasonable-sounding argument or ploy, then call for a Bluff or Diplomacy check to see if it actually works.

In that environment, playing a bard won't make you better at social stuff if you the player can't come up with plausible lies and convincing arguments, but playing a fighter with a Charisma 6 will prevent you from being good at social stuff even if you the player could talk penguins into buying refrigerators.

This is a problem with roleplay requirements on diplomacy and bluff rolls, and similarly with puzzles "inside" the game that are solved by the players outside it. A player who can't come up with a viable excuse off the cuff or plan a decent argument is unable to run a charismatic character; a player who's bad at puzzles is unable to run an intelligent one.

While you're playing the character, sometimes you're faced with a situation where you can't come up with anything, and you just want to throw down the dice and shout "Bluff +16!" and let your character do what they do, the same way you would to have them climb a wall or forge a longsword.

AKA_Bait
2007-09-11, 11:01 AM
This is a problem with roleplay requirements on diplomacy and bluff rolls, and similarly with puzzles "inside" the game that are solved by the players outside it. A player who can't come up with a viable excuse off the cuff or plan a decent argument is unable to run a charismatic character; a player who's bad at puzzles is unable to run an intelligent one.

While you're playing the character, sometimes you're faced with a situation where you can't come up with anything, and you just want to throw down the dice and shout "Bluff +16!" and let your character do what they do, the same way you would to have them climb a wall or forge a longsword.

And you can do that, at least in my view. Same is true of problem solving for smart characters. Just roll and intelegence check and the DM can determine if it was high enough for your character to have pulled it off or alternativley give them a big honking clue.

Dausuul
2007-09-11, 11:09 AM
Also, another common labelled "Magic" would be useful, as I wouldn't exactly call a Wizard Good at Combat. They get good Magic, yeah, but rushing in to kill things with a Sword, no. Combat seems like, y'know, physically fighting, not using spells.

I disagree. Perhaps "Combat" should be renamed "Offense" (and "Toughness" correspondingly changed to "Defense"), but "Magic" should not be its own category.

Aside from "Mechanics," the purpose of these categories is to evaluate what tasks a class is good at, with the description indicating how the class is good at them. "Offense" is the task of neutralizing your enemies in battle. "Defense" is the task of not getting neutralized yourself. "Social" is the task of interacting with non-hostile NPCs (or at least NPCs who aren't actively trying to kill you at this moment). "Utility" is a catch-all category for tasks that don't fall into any of the others. But what task does "Magic" represent?

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-11, 11:12 AM
A bit harsh perhaps?

I don't think so. I find both of those elements to be missing. It presents D&D as if the class system is very limited, makes it seem like PrCs don't exist, and doesn't actually really do anything to teach players the benefits and drawbacks of classes, nor how to build or use characters of any class effectively.

It just gives fairly arbitrary labels.

For example, take the bard. A quote from the CharOp boards is "The old fashioned notion that the bard is underpowered has long since fallen out of style here." Indeed, on a recent polling for top 10 most powerful classes *in D&D*, the Bard was often in the 5th or 6th slot after things like the Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Artificer, and that one Spell Erudite...

Bard:
Combat: fair, poor at high levels
Toughness: fair
Social: good
Misc: good

This doesn't tell me that Bards can use Glibness to have every word they speak be believed. It doesn't tell me that I raise up my Diplomacy modifiers faster than any other core class. It doesn't tell me about the great potential of +8 Inspire Courage at level 8 or Fascinate/Suggestion. It doesn't tell me about the utility of UMD (or Magic Savant or anything). And it certainly doesn't tell you that you can make a bard build that does 600 damage with TWF, adds +12d6 energy damage to all his allies' attacks as a swift action that lasts the whole combat, has 9th level maneuvers, and still UMDs and uses wands and scrolls from the bard list without any need for UMD (that would probably make me think "combat: awesome"). It doesn't tell me about the Sublime Chord or the War Weaver or the Lyric Thaumaturge or the feat you care about to make a Bard/Paladin. It doesn't tell me what benefits I'm going to get with multiclassing. In fact, it gives the impression that I can't get seperate builds, but that regardless of what I do it'll be those same parameters.

The only thing this tells me is that the OP thinks Bards aren't very tough, aren't very strong, but are good in social situations and good at some obscure thing called "misc." I have no idea why from reading it. But I might just think "Oh, well I shouldn't use a bard if I don't want to be good in combat" which would make the information actively harmful (you totally can make a combat bard, who sings even as he rips your face off.)

BCOVertigo
2007-09-11, 11:16 AM
I'd also like to add that with supplements such as Complete Warrior, the Fighter's tactics can become much more complex. Last night for example the Fighter was using Shock Trooper: Heedless Charge in conjunction with Combat Brute: Momentum Swing and was being aided by a use of White Raven Tactics.(I promised my DM it won't be abused so leave me alone:smalltongue:)

While the Fighter's learning curve may not be as steep as a class who has to memorize their entire spell list, you still need to understand your tricks and they aren't nearly as easy as a barbarian if you concoct more elaborate strategies.

Dausuul
2007-09-11, 11:39 AM
And it certainly doesn't tell you that you can make a bard build that does 600 damage with TWF, adds +12d6 energy damage to all his allies' attacks as a swift action that lasts the whole combat, has 9th level maneuvers, and still UMDs and uses wands and scrolls from the bard list without any need for UMD (that would probably make me think "combat: awesome"). It doesn't tell me about the Sublime Chord or the War Weaver or the Lyric Thaumaturge or the feat you care about to make a Bard/Paladin. It doesn't tell me what benefits I'm going to get with multiclassing. In fact, it gives the impression that I can't get seperate builds, but that regardless of what I do it'll be those same parameters.

While I agree on many points, do note that this is a guide for newbies, not a guide to character optimization. I don't know what the combat build is that you're referring to, but I'm guessing it involves multiple splatbooks, a whole pile of esoteric feats and PrCs, 20 levels, and a double helping of cheese, and almost certainly has at least one element that will be vetoed by most DMs.

Newbies don't usually have the knowledge or the optimization skills to make something like that, and they also don't want to blindly follow a build somebody else made up. Part of the fun of D&D is designing your own character. So I'd say the guide should be about relatively non-optimized bards, maybe with general tips on how to get the best use out of the class, but without going too much into specific builds and without drawing on a lot of sourcebooks that the newbie may not have access to.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-11, 11:45 AM
While I agree on many points, do note that this is a guide for newbies, not a guide to character optimization. I don't know what the combat build is that you're referring to, but I'm guessing it involves multiple splatbooks, a whole pile of esoteric feats and PrCs, 20 levels, and a double helping of cheese, and almost certainly has at least one element that will be vetoed by most DMs. No PrCs, actually. It's just a Bard 4/Warblade 16 or Bard 4/Crusader 16 with the standard Inspire Courage bit, plus Dragonfire Inspiration (Dragon Magic), and Song of the White Raven (the ToB / Bard multiclass feat). And the TWF line of feats.


Newbies don't usually have the knowledge or the optimization skills to make something like that Shouldn't a guide give knowledge one didn't have before?


and they also don't want to blindly follow a build somebody else made up. That was part of my objection to THIS guide. It restricts you to those fairly arbitrary labels.


So I'd say the guide should be about relatively non-optimized bards, with general tips on how to get the best use out of the class, but without going too much into specific builds and without drawing on a lot of sourcebooks that the newbie may not have access to.

The existing guide... doesn't do that, though. It just gives labels.

In all honesty, if I was going to make a guide to classes for "newbies", I would do one of two things:

1) If it was going to be a mechanical guide about power levels and stuff (like this one), I would give an *analysis* of all the classes (about how their actual abilities contribute to functions, and a couple common, easy builds, including straightclass. Not a "good" label on a category like "misc" which will tell me a sum total of nothing), and link to handbooks and useful resources. I find the notion that a newbie will be "too stupid to understand" seems rather offensive. I learned D&D in a day, and I started "optimizing" when I started playing. I'm sure other people can too.

2) I would probably actually go ahead and rant on about what a class actually is. That is to say, I would explain that a class is a purely metagame concept and collection of mechanical abilities that are entirely seperated from flavor, and that you shouldn't constrict yourself to arbitrary stereotypes, and give some examples (such as from the stupid old "dipping and multiclassing makes you a bad roleplayer" arguments where people disproved them by presenting any flavor concept, and putting in a bunch of abilities from thoroughly multiclassed characters, renaming the abilities, describing what they do and what they look like (not changing mechanics at all), and people couldn't figure out what classes they were.)

Dausuul
2007-09-11, 11:51 AM
No PrCs, actually. It's just a Bard 4/Warblade 16 or Bard 4/Crusader 16 with the standard Inspire Courage bit, plus Dragonfire Inspiration (Dragon Magic), and Song of the White Raven (the ToB / Bard multiclass feat). And the TWF line of feats.

Um... that's not really a "bard build," that's a warblade or crusader build with a bit of bard thrown in.


Shouldn't a guide give knowledge one didn't have before?

Sure, but it should be knowledge that's relevant to the topic of the guide and on a level appropriate to the intended user. A guide for people learning to drive should not include the technical specs of a jet engine.


That was part of my objection to THIS guide. It restricts you to those fairly arbitrary labels.

The existing guide... doesn't do that, though. It just gives labels.

Those were the other points of yours that I was agreeing with. :smallsmile:

IMO, the purpose of a newbie guide should be to help newbies decide where they want to go, and give them some pointers to help them get there. In this case, a brief overview of the possibilities of the class that a newbie can reasonably expect to achieve, suggestions on how to achieve them, and warnings about the most common newbie mistakes (e.g., neglecting your archery skills when playing a melee fighter).

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-11, 12:00 PM
Um... that's not really a "bard build," that's a warblade or crusader build with a bit of bard thrown in. Howso? It sings (REALLY well). It uses bard spells. It gets full bard singing progression with Song of the White Raven. It gets the bard's skills from Able Learner. And it starts with bard. Bard features heavily into what the build's capabilities and tactics are.

What makes something a "bard build"? Is it the number of bard levels? If it's a Bard 4 / (insert 4 PrCs here) people generally call it a bard build. OR they might call it a War Weaver or Sublime Chord or Lyric Thaumaturge build.

Same goes for the Bardadin. It's got a lot of paladin levels, because the Bard pretty much gets all their melee-relevant abilities already or gets them to *scale* with the multiclass feat. People still usually call it a bard build in my experience.

Ditto
2007-09-11, 12:25 PM
The beginningest players don't deal with prestige classes. And the Bard4/X16 is a X build, no matter how much synergy there is. A beginners guide should give you an idea of what it's like to play the straight class, and their relative merits in low, medium, and high level play. There's nothing wrong with multiclassing or PrCs, but if I say "Tell me about bards", then I don't want to hear about Lyric Thaumaturges. Just start with bards.

Dausuul's rubrik is an excellent way to present this guide. Reading three paragraphs each for 10 classes is a great way to give newbies enough direction to pick a path with a reasonable idea of what to expect ahead of them.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-11, 12:46 PM
Just start with bards.

In that case, you would say "Bards get most of their most attractive abilities in the first few levels, most notably Inspire Courage and Fascinate/Suggestion. They also have a number of useful multiclass feats. As a result of these two factors, they multiclass and quite PrC well, and X, Y, and Z classes are good things to multiclass with them because of X, Y, and Z bard feats."

It just changes the wording, not so much the message. That description is utterly focused on the bard.

Not mentioning it would be as incomplete as not mentioning the Fighter's propensity for being a two-feat dip class. It's one of the defining traits of the class itself. To ignore it seems narrow-minded to me.

Kurald Galain
2007-09-11, 12:48 PM
While I agree on many points, do note that this is a guide for newbies, not a guide to character optimization.

Precisely. The point is to make it easier for novice players to pick a class they will probably like for the first few levels while they learn the ropes, without overwhelming them with dozens of options or hundreds of permutations. The point is not to repeat the perennial debate of which classes have what potential if min-maxed properly by an experienced player who spends hours making the optimum build for his idea.

AKA_Bait
2007-09-11, 12:50 PM
In that case, you would say "Bards get most of their most attractive abilities in the first few levels, most notably Inspire Courage and Fascinate/Suggestion. They also have a number of useful multiclass feats. As a result of these two factors, they multiclass and quite PrC well, and X, Y, and Z classes are good things to multiclass with them because of X, Y, and Z bard feats."

It just changes the wording, not so much the message. That description is utterly focused on the bard.

Not mentioning it would be as incomplete as not mentioning the Fighter's propensity for being a two-feat dip class. It's one of the defining traits of the class itself. To ignore it seems narrow-minded to me.

And yet.... if when I started playing 3.x I read that first paragraph the fastest conclusion I would reach would be 'woah, too complicated to play a bard'. This is despite the fact that bards really are not all that complicated to play and have fun with. Remember, a beginning player is still getting the hang of what classes and feats are in the first place. Basically, you don't hand a copy of Special Relativity to someone just beginning to deal with Newton. If you do, they will just be confused and turned off.

K.I.S.S. is the watchphrase of making a beginners guide. Have no doubt that your players will figure this stuff out when they get more playing time under their belts, you don't need to give it to t

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-11, 01:42 PM
Remember, a beginning player is still getting the hang of what classes and feats are in the first place.


See, that's never really made much sense to me, because I learned D&D in a day (actually, a funny story goes with that) and didn't have any trouble with that. I came to my first session knowing exactly what I was doing, because in all honesty I found the game to be pretty simple and easy to understand. I know a lot of people have this problem, though, so that's exactly why my earlier suggestion was a guide about just what a class is.

Also, if you just say "This class: Good" and "This class: Bad" like what the OP posted then people are just going to play the "good" class (and have no idea why, and not do anything better for it.)

Kajorma
2007-09-11, 01:51 PM
I think any guide should start with a description of party roles. Sure, not all parties fill all roles (my current one has no arcane caster), but its important to understand.
The player isn't just building a single character, they are building part of a team. The way I see it there are 4 roles that are typically needed in a party:

1) Tank - The first into combat and the last out. This role is for the very tough adventurers that aren't afraid to get a little battered and bruised.

2) Healer - The healer keeps the party going. While they are not normally the toughest combatants or the hardest hitters, their services are invaluable to the team.

3) Cannon - It is said that the best defense is a good offense. Usually a cannon is not suited for a toe to toe fight, but can provide a lot of damage to the teams enemies if they are well supported.

4) Sneak - The sneak's role is not particularly focused in combat. The sneak serves as the party's scout, and can help the team to overcome more subtle obsicles, such as traps or gathering information.

I'd start with that framework, and then describe how each class can fit each role (well/fair/poorly/not at all)
For instance, Fighters and Barbarians are always good tanks, but as Cannons, they start off strong and taper out.
Rogues are the best Sneaks in the game, and can act as a fair Cannon as well.
Bards don't generally excell at any role, but they have the ability to do all of them.
Etc.

AKA_Bait
2007-09-11, 02:00 PM
See, that's never really made much sense to me, because I learned D&D in a game and didn't have any trouble with that. I came to my first session knowing exactly what I was doing, because in all honesty I found the game to be pretty simple and easy to understand.

Congratulations. I'm pretty sure that you are the exception rather than the rule. I came in knowing mostly what I was doing but still had to learn much of the mechanics of my character rogue/sorcerer as I went along. I did pick what I was playing based upon the learning curve I posted above though. Preparing spells and having hundreds to choose from was a bit much for me to start.



Also, if you just say "This class: Good" and "This class: Bad" like what the OP posted then people are just going to play the "good" class (and have no idea why, and not do anything better for it.)

I sort of agree with you there except that I don't think that the OP said 'this class good, this class bad' really, just outlined at what powerlevels some classes are more effective in what ways than others (I don't necc agree with it all either). I do think a general description of the important mechanics and general use of a class (see blaster sorcerer rather than batman sorcerer) goes along with it.

I don't think just because a guilde says that one class is more powerful at higher levels than another class that players will only play those classes. I came into D&D knowing full well that a multiclass sorc/rogue (this is before Beguilers and Warlocks were around) was not going to be the most powerful thing in the group but was willing to sacrifice power for simplicty of mechanics as I was learning. I think lots of new players do this, especially if their DM has the good sense to point out that some classes are simpler to manage than others.

@Kajorma

You forgot: Face

Dausuul
2007-09-11, 02:07 PM
I think any guide should start with a description of party roles. Sure, not all parties fill all roles (my current one has no arcane caster), but its important to understand.
The player isn't just building a single character, they are building part of a team. The way I see it there are 4 roles that are typically needed in a party:

I don't think the four-role model is necessarily very well suited to 3E parties, though. A party can function quite well with one or more roles left unfilled. The one thing most people find troublesome is doing without a healer, and OneWinged4ngel has convincingly demonstrated in another thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55951) that even healers can be dispensed with as long as you have a UMD rogue, a bard, a paladin, or a ranger in the group (in other words, anyone who can use a wand of cure light wounds).

I'd prefer to stick with the categories the OP laid out (renamed): Offense, Defense, Social, and Utility. Those do a better job of describing a character's capabilities. Laying out a set of "roles" implies that every character needs to fill exactly one role, and that's not the case at all.

Now that I think about it, though, "Healing" might deserve its own category. You do need somebody who can use that wand, after all.

Just put in a note to the effect that it's important to make sure your party has all four five categories adequately covered. You don't need a tank character, but you do need some form of Defense; you don't need a healer character, but you do need some way to keep your people Healed; you don't need a sneak character, but you do need a way to handle Social and Utility tasks; and you don't need a cannon character, but you do need a sufficiency of Offense.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-11, 03:01 PM
Congratulations. I'm pretty sure that you are the exception rather than the rule. Well, yeah, I mentioned that I was aware of that (immediately after the part you quoted, in fact) ^^;;

Dausuul
2007-09-11, 10:56 PM
Okay, here's my (first-draft, and undoubtedly much in need of revision) crack at a Newbie Guide to Classes. I know some of the descriptions are copy-and-pasted between classes, but really--how many ways are there to say "Two-handed weapons are the most effective choice for melee warriors?"

Tear it apart, folks...

NEWBIE’S GUIDE TO THE CORE CLASSES

The following guide lays out the eleven D&D core classes for the novice player, describing their strengths, weaknesses, and how they work in play. For purposes of this guide, I've limited myself to the three Core books—the Player's Handbook, the Dungeon Master's Guide, and the Monster Manual.

Note: This guide is devoted purely to the mechanical aspects of the core classes. It is not meant to be a guide to good roleplaying, only to designing an effective “build” and to using the class’s mechanical abilities in-game. Good roleplaying is a whole other kettle of fish, which may be addressed in a separate guide.

Each class is described in terms of five categories: Offense, Defense, Social, Healing, and Utility. These represent the different types of task that a character may be called upon to perform. Offense is used to harm or destroy enemies in combat. Defense is used to protect your party from those same enemies. Social is used to get NPCs to help you or go along with you outside of combat. Healing is used to patch up the player characters after a fight. Utility is a catch-all category for tasks that don’t fall into any of the other four; stealth, scouting, transportation, trap-finding, and so on.

When you’re planning out your character, it’s a good idea to discuss your ideas with other members of the gaming group. Make sure that between your characters, you have all five of the above areas covered in some fashion. If you don’t, you are likely to run into trouble now and then when you find yourself in a situation that calls for skill in the neglected area.

In addition to the five categories, the guide also notes how complex a class’s mechanics are, and offers some tips on making an “effective” character of that class. You don’t have to follow these tips by any means, but they may prove helpful if you’re worried about your character’s ability to keep up with the rest of the party.

BARBARIAN
Offense: Barbarians are the kings of melee damage, especially when raging. At low levels, this makes them very strong on offense. It gets less useful at higher levels where many opponents can fly. The barbarian’s fast movement is extremely helpful in combat and should not be underestimated.
Defense: Barbarians can soak prodigious amounts of damage. They are easier to hit than other front-liners, however, due to their lighter armor and rage penalties. When fighting in a tunnel or a building, they can serve as blockers for the weaker party members, but they are more effective on offense. Like most melee warriors, barbarians have weak Will saves and can easily be targeted by mind-control spells, though their rage gives them a slight edge on resisting such things.
Social: Barbarians don’t have much to contribute in social situations. Their only social class skill is Intimidate, and they gain no synergy from investing in Charisma.
Healing: Barbarians have virtually no healing ability.
Utility: Barbarians have little to offer in this area. They get Survival and Listen as class skills, and have more skill points than most classes. This makes them useful in wilderness situations, and Listen gives them a chance to detect an ambush before it happens. That’s about it.
Mechanics: It can take a little while to learn the ropes of barbarian rage, with so many of your stats bouncing up and down whenever you use it. However, that’s the main challenge of playing a barbarian. In most respects, the class is simple to learn and play.

Barbarian Tips: Strength and Constitution are the barbarian’s main attributes. Dexterity is helpful, but only up to a point, since your armor will put limits on how much of your Dexterity bonus you can apply to your AC.

Two-handed weapons such as greatswords are usually the best choice for a barbarian. Weapon-and-shield can be effective at low levels, but at higher levels a one-handed weapon simply can’t keep up with monster hit points. Two-weapon fighting requires a heavy investment in feats and Dexterity just to keep up with the other styles and is widely considered inferior.

Power Attack is essential to most barbarian melee builds. This works well with two-handed weapons, since every point of attack bonus you spend on Power Attack gives you two points of damage.

Don’t neglect your ranged attacks! While they may not be as effective as melee, you’ll need a good bow when facing flying enemies. Composite longbows are the barbarian’s ranged weapon of choice.

Barbarian rage is a potent weapon, but needs to be conserved; remember that you only get a few uses per day, so don’t waste them. Also keep in mind the danger of having your rage wear off before the fight is over.

BARD
Offense: Bards are weak where actually dealing damage is concerned. They can fight if they have to, but their damage output will never compare to that of a powerhouse like the fighter or barbarian. On the other hand, bardic music can provide a strong boost to the rest of the party’s attacks, and bards have many spells that can be used to confuse enemies and make them vulnerable.
Defense: Bards are not sturdy combatants and are well-advised to stay out of the front lines when possible. Their main defensive contribution lies in their ability to cripple, confuse, and weaken foes. At this, they excel.
Social: Bards are the masters of social interaction. With plenty of skill points, full access to all social skills, and a high Charisma, bards can handle virtually any social challenge. Moreover, where mundane talents fail, you have a solid array of charm and mind-influencing magic to help you get your way.
Healing: Bards get access to healing spells, but they are usually better off doing other things with their magic. A wand of cure light wounds will allow a bard to function quite well as the party healer, though other methods will be needed for unusual afflictions like poison and disease.
Utility: Bards have a good array of utility skills, especially Hide, Move Silently, Spot, and Listen. They lack a rogue’s facility with traps and locks, and can’t invest too heavily in utility skills without giving up some of their social prowess. However, what they lack in skills, they can make up for in spells.
Mechanics: Bards are spellcasters, which means that creating a bard takes substantially longer than creating a non-caster character. However, any given bard has a relatively small array of spells known, which means you will quickly become familiar with all of your spells and how they work. Bardic music can be a bit of a nuisance for novices to keep track of, but all in all, bards are among the easiest casters to learn.

Bard Tips: Charisma is a bard’s stock in trade; virtually all of your abilities are based on it, so you should raise it as high as possible. Beyond that, you have considerable flexibility in how you assign your ability scores. Popular choices are Intelligence, for the extra skill points, and Dexterity, for its defensive value, improved ranged attacks, and benefits to stealth skills.

Choose your skills and spells with care; these will define what your character can do, and you only get a limited amount of them. Try to avoid overlap. If you’ve raised your social skills to the maximum, do you really need to know the charm person spell too?

Perform is effectively required for a bard. Raise this skill as high as you can, every level.

Remember that bard song continues its effects for 5 rounds after you stop singing, so you can sing for one round at the start of combat, then switch to other activities. A small selection of combat-oriented spells is valuable here; a well-placed glitterdust can turn a tough encounter into a cakewalk. However, don’t burn through all your spells in one fight. Sing for one round, cast a spell or two in order to give your side a decisive edge, then switch to sword or bow for the rest of the combat.


CLERIC
Offense: Clerics are second-string warriors under normal circumstances, but given a few rounds they can turn themselves into engines of melee death. They have a variety of spells to boost their own combat prowess and (to a lesser extent) that of their allies. Because of this, clerics are at their strongest when they have time to prepare for a fight. A well-equipped and spell-boosted cleric can actually outperform a fighter or barbarian in melee. Later on, clerics also get a handful of devastating attack spells. Finally, clerics are well-equipped to deal with undead, which often pose a tough challenge for other classes. Mobility is a cleric’s biggest weakness on offense, since most of their attack spells and weapons are short-range.
Defense: Clerics are masters of defensive magic. With time to prepare, a cleric can provide the entire party with all manner of protection, especially against supernatural attacks. They are also sturdy enough, and tough enough to hit, that they can stand in front and block enemies from reaching weaker party members, though this tactic is most effective in confined spaces and works less well out in the open.
Social: Clerics are solid if not spectacular in the social domain. They get Diplomacy as a class skill and gain some synergy from having a high Charisma, so they can do an adequate job as the party “face.” Still, a cleric is not the equal of a social rogue or a bard in this arena.
Healing: Healing is the cleric’s traditional role, and they are by far the best healers among the core classes. They can use wands of cure light wounds, and they have spells to cure virtually any affliction PCs are subject to, up to and including death.
Utility: Clerics do not shine quite as much in this area as they do in the others, but they do have a decent array of utility spells, especially at higher levels. They are especially good at overcoming terrain obstacles. Your chosen domains play an important part here.
Mechanics: Clerics are among the most complicated of the classes to play, and it can take a while to get the hang of all their abilities. Spell preparation is something of a headache at first, exacerbated by the fact that you have the entire spell list to choose from, and the Turn Undead mechanics bear no resemblance to anything else in the game. On the other hand, designing a cleric character is pretty easy, since you have relatively few choices to make and none of them is vital to your ability to do what you do.

Cleric Tips: Wisdom is by far the most important ability score for a cleric. After Wisdom, most clerics invest moderately in Strength and Constitution so they can stand up well in melee, and Charisma to help them against undead.

Many D&D players think of clerics as healers first and foremost. In truth, there are often much better things for you to be doing in combat. Each round you spend healing is a round you don’t spend destroying the enemy. Do it if it will keep a party member from going down for the count, but otherwise you should concentrate on boosting your party’s offensive power and attacking foes. If you buy a wand of cure light wounds, you can use that to heal your friends after combat without expending your own spell slots.

Your domain selection is not critical to your performance, and you can safely choose your domains for character flavor rather than optimization. That said, you can also use your domain choices to flesh out your character in whatever area you want to improve. Generally, if you want to use a domain in combat, look at its granted powers (Destruction and Luck are good choices); if you want a domain for utility, look at its domain spells (Travel and Trickery are popular).

DRUID
Offense: Druids are quite powerful on offense. At low levels, you will rely mainly on your animal companion. Once you gain access to Wild Shape at 5th level, you can become a dangerous warrior yourself. If you need more muscle, you can summon creatures to fight on your behalf. Finally, druids have a substantial number of offensive spells, if not as many or as potent as the wizard’s. This gives you a great deal of versatility in how you engage a foe.
Defense: A druid’s best defensive abilities revolve around controlling the terrain. With spells like entangle, stone shape, and spike growth, you can make it very difficult for the enemy to reach you and your allies. Your animal companion and summons can help by blocking off attack routes and grappling foes. Druids are less good at blocking flying enemies.
Social: Social skills are not a druid’s area of expertise. They have Diplomacy as a class skill, and enough skill points that they can afford to invest in it. On the other hand, they gain no synergy from improving Charisma. As a result, while a druid can speak for the party in a pinch, other classes are better suited to the job.
Healing: While your healing magic is not as strong as a cleric’s, you do have it, and you can serve quite well as a healer. You can use wands and scrolls with healing spells, and you have access to most of the spells to remove special afflictions. Your one failing as a healer is your inability to use the restoration and raise dead spells, but you can hire a cleric to cast those on the rare occasions that they are needed.
Utility: Druids have a fair number of utility spells and skills. They are at their strongest in a wilderness setting, but can do tolerably well in a city or a dungeon as well. Their high Wisdom, combined with Spot and Listen as class skills, makes them very good at spotting dangers and opportunities.
Mechanics: Druids are the most complicated of all the core classes to play. Not only do you have an extensive spell list to master, you also need to become familiar with all the various animals you can summon, have as your companion, and turn into. Add to that the minor-but-useful special abilities like Woodland Stride, and you have a class that can be very daunting to novice players. Creating a druid is not nearly as difficult as playing one, however.

Druid Tips: Wisdom is your key ability score, since you rely on it for all of your spellcasting. If you plan to engage in melee, Constitution is also valuable. Other ability scores are pretty much optional after you hit 5th level; when you Wild Shape, you assume the physical statistics of whatever you turned into, so your own Strength and Dexterity cease to matter.

The Natural Spell feat is immensely popular among druids, because it lets you keep casting spells without turning back into human form. This means you can stay in Wild Shape pretty much all day long if you want.

If you intend to be the party healer, you may want to invest in a wand of cure light wounds. That will let you provide out-of-combat healing without having to expend spell slots. Note, however, that you will have to turn back into a person to use the wand…

FIGHTER
Offense: In a toe-to-toe slugging match, fighters can dish out a lot of damage. This is most effective at low levels. At higher levels, the fighter’s lack of mobility makes it hard for him to engage the enemy hand-to-hand, particularly given the increasing number of flying opponents. Fighters who don’t neglect their ranged attacks can inflict decent damage that way, but melee remains the fighter’s specialty.
Defense: Fighters can take a lot of damage and are hard to hit, allowing them to stand up well in melee combat. When fighting in a confined space, this allows them to block or "tank" for other members of the party, standing in between them and the enemy. This ability is less useful in an open area, particularly against agile foes, which can simply dodge past the fighter. Where personal defense is concerned, a fighter’s main weakness is his Will save; mind-control spells and the like can easily take a fighter out of the action.
Social: Fighters don’t have much to contribute in social situations. Their only social class skill is Intimidate, and they gain no synergy from investing in Charisma.
Healing: Fighters have virtually no healing ability.
Utility: A fighter has little to offer outside of combat. Because of their lack of skills and magical powers, their utility abilities are mostly limited to kicking down doors and absorbing damage from traps the rogue fails to disarm.
Mechanics: Designing an effective fighter can be a difficult task. Your class abilities depend heavily on your feat choices, and poor feat choice can result in a very weak combatant. Since combat is pretty much all fighters do, you want to be as good at it as possible. On the other hand, once the character is built, a fighter is usually quite simple to play.

Fighter Tips: Fighters rely very heavily on Strength, and to a lesser extent Constitution. Dexterity is seldom useful beyond 12 or 13, since you will likely be wearing full plate armor.

Two-handed weapons such as greatswords are usually the best choice for a fighter. Weapon-and-shield can be effective at low levels, but at higher levels a one-handed weapon simply can’t keep up with monster hit points. Two-weapon fighting requires a heavy investment in feats and Dexterity just to keep up with the other styles and is widely considered inferior.

Power Attack is essential to most fighter melee builds. This works well with two-handed weapons, since every point of attack bonus you spend on Power Attack gives you two points of damage.

Don’t neglect your ranged attacks! While they may not be as effective as melee, you’ll need a good bow when facing flying enemies. Composite longbows are the fighter’s ranged weapon of choice.

MONK
Offense: Monks have difficulty with offense. Flurry of Blows lets them make a lot of attacks, but their odds of hitting are relatively low, they have to take a full attack in order to use the ability, and they are limited to unarmed attacks and a handful of mediocre weapons. While the base damage on a monk’s unarmed strike looks impressive, it quickly pales next to the bonuses other melee warriors can pile onto their attacks. Stunning Fist is a monk’s best offensive talent, but it requires a normal attack roll and allows a saving throw, which limits its usefulness.
Defense: With their good saving throws, high speed, self-healing, and special abilities, monks have very solid personal defense. Unfortunately, they lack a way to extend that defense to the rest of the group. As “tanks,” they are inferior to fighters and paladins due to lack of armor and poor hit points, and they have very few other ways to stop enemies from attacking.
Social: Sense Motive is a class skill for monks, and their high Wisdom makes them excellent at it. They also get Diplomacy. However, Charisma is usually the last thing a monk wants to invest in, which makes them tolerable “faces” at best, and most monks have other priorities for their skill ranks.
Healing: From level 7 onward, monks can heal themselves to a very limited extent, but lack any ability to heal others.
Utility: Monks have some utility abilities, mostly in the form of stealth skills and swift movement. They are quite good at Spot and Listen thanks to their high Wisdom scores. However, they are lacking in most other utility areas.
Mechanics: The monk is a little more difficult to learn than other melee classes, but not tremendously so, and building the character is fairly straightforward.

Monk Tips: Monks need a wide spread of good ability scores. Wisdom, Dexterity, Constitution, and Strength are all important to the monk.

Stunning Fist is generally superior to Improved Grapple. While the latter can be useful in some cases, many of the monsters you encounter will be too big and strong for grappling.

If you pick Stunning Fist for your first-level bonus feat, it’s a good idea to concentrate on making the save DC as high as possible. Raise your Wisdom as much as you can, and consider the Ability Focus feat (which is found on page 303 of the Monster Manual). You may also want to take Weapon Finesse; this will reduce your dependence on Strength and allow you to concentrate on raising your Dexterity.

If you pick Improved Grapple for your first-level bonus feat, Strength will be your most important ability score. Boost it as high as you can in order to improve your unarmed damage and your grapple checks.

Making a monk effective is something of a challenge. While monks are reasonably good at surviving, they have comparatively little to offer the rest of the party.

PALADIN
Offense: Paladins can be solid fighters in normal melee. However, they are far more devastating when mounted. Their special mounts are tough enough to stand up to the rigors of mid-level combat, and a charging smite attack with a lance can inflict terrific damage. As with all melee-specialized classes, paladins lose effectiveness when they have to fight at range. However, a flying mount can take care of much of this problem.
Defense: Paladins can take a lot of damage and are hard to hit, allowing them to stand up well in melee combat. They can use this to block enemies when fighting in a confined space. They have better saving throws than other combat classes due to their Divine Grace ability, but otherwise their defensive abilities are on par with the fighter.
Social: Paladins can be quite good in social situations. They get both Diplomacy and Sense Motive as class skills, and they usually have above-average Charisma. The code of conduct forbids them from lying, but this can cut both ways, since people know paladins are trustworthy. Their one real drawback is their lack of skill points, which makes many paladins reluctant to invest too heavily in social skills.
Healing: Paladins have a minor innate healing ability. Their main value as healers, however, lies in their ability to use wands and scrolls of healing spells. Since they have most of the healing and affliction-removing spells available on their spell lists, they can use scrolls of those spells, including restoration. A paladin can thus be a solid healer.
Utility: Paladins have essentially no utility abilities, with the possible exception of their mounts.
Mechanics: Paladin mechanics are only a little more complicated than fighter mechanics, and paladins are generally easy to build. The one stumbling block is the paladin mount, since mounted combat can take a little getting used to. However, they are overall a fairly straightforward class.

Paladin Tips: Like any melee warrior, a paladin needs a decent Strength and Constitution. They also use Charisma for most of their special abilities, and Wisdom for spellcasting.

If you expect to be doing a lot of rooting around in underground cave complexes, consider playing a Small race such as a halfling or a gnome. While they don’t fit the classic “knight in shining armor” image, it’s much easier to get a riding dog into a dungeon than a heavy warhorse.

Paladins do very well with the Mounted Combat line of feats, especially Ride-By Attack and Spirited Charge. If you have room to charge past an enemy, wheel, and charge back, you can inflict double damage with every attack, or triple with a lance!

When you’re about to get your paladin mount, ask your DM about the special mount options on page 204 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide. It’s usually worth waiting till 6th or 7th level to get a better mount. Hippogriffs, dire bats, and pegasi are all good choices and will allow you to go head-to-head with airborne foes.

The most effective weapons for a paladin are lances and two-handed weapons. Lances inflict double damage on a mounted charge, or triple if you have the Spirited Charge feat, which can result in eye-popping damage totals when combined with Smite Evil. Two-handed weapons are good for the same reasons they benefit any melee fighter—improved damage output and synergy with Power Attack. Note also that Power Attack damage is doubled by Spirited Charge.

As with any melee fighter, it’s a good idea to carry a bow in case you have to fight an enemy you can’t reach. However, a flying mount will help tremendously with this.

IMPORTANT FOR ALL PALADINS! Before the game starts, talk to the DM about the paladin’s Code of Conduct and make sure you agree on how it will be interpreted. The paladin code has been a source of confusion, misunderstanding, and woe since the dawn of D&D. You don’t want to have all your class abilities wiped out because you thought something was acceptable that the DM didn’t like. Ask for specific examples of things that would cause you to lose your paladin status, so you know what to avoid. Some DMs view the paladin code as an opportunity to “gotcha” the paladin, in which case you’re better off playing another class.

RANGER
Offense: Ranger offense depends heavily on their choice of fighting style. Two-weapon rangers have a tough time on offense, since they need a full attack to get the benefits of their style, in addition to all the usual limitations on melee warriors. However, archer rangers can be incredibly lethal foes. Either way, most rangers have trouble against monsters with damage reduction, which are common at high levels. Your choice of favored enemy is also a major factor in your offense.
Defense: Rangers have generally inferior defense, both personally and on a party level. They have fewer hit points than the other warrior classes and wear lighter armor, and they suffer the same weakness in Will saves. Rangers tend to work better as skirmishers than front-line combatants. They do get some useful defensive spells, but their spells per day and maximum spell level are too limited for this to be a major factor.
Social: Rangers have almost nothing to contribute in social situations. None of the social skills are class skills for them, not even Intimidate, and they gain no synergy from investing in Charisma.
Healing: Rangers don’t have much in the way of healing abilities, but they can use a wand of cure light wounds, which is the single most important talent for a healer. They also get Heal as a class skill, and actually have enough skill points to develop it. A ranger can function as the party healer, but you will need to pay a cleric to deal with the more severe and unusual afflictions.
Utility: Rangers are good at stealth and detection skills. They are also expert trackers, which can sometimes come in handy in wilderness settings. Finally, their animal companions can often make good scouts and spies. However, this is about the limit of their utility abilities.
Mechanics: Ranger mechanics are slightly more difficult than fighter or barbarian, but not dramatically so. Designing a ranger is mostly straightforward, but you will want to think carefully when choosing your favored enemies and deciding on your fighting style.

Ranger Tips: Rangers rely much more on Dexterity than other warrior types, since they are limited to light armor. Archer rangers also need Dexterity to hit. Strength remains valuable for the damage bonus, and Constitution can help compensate for the ranger’s lower hit points. Wisdom allows the ranger to cast spells but is not very useful otherwise.

Archer rangers are far more effective than two-weapon rangers. You should use Rapid Shot almost all the time if playing an archer. Don’t forget to use a composite bow so you can add your Strength bonus to damage.

Your choice of favored enemy is not a decision to be made lightly. The most important thing is to pick something you expect to fight often, but also keep in mind that the favored enemy bonus can be very useful to overcome damage reduction, which will otherwise be a problem.

For your first-level favored enemy, Humanoid (Goblinoid), Humanoid (Orc), and Undead are all good picks. Later on, Outsider (Evil) is generally an excellent choice. Not only are evil outsiders very common foes at high levels, but they also have damage reduction which can be hard to negate.

ROGUE
Offense: Rogue offense can be quite powerful, but is also situational. Their main attack form is the sneak attack. A sneak attacking rogue can do damage comparable to a fighter or barbarian, but only if they’re in a position to get the sneak attack bonus, which can take some arranging. To get the bonus, most rogues rely on having another combatant (usually a front-liner such as a fighter or paladin) flank the target. At higher levels, spells such as improved invisibility can free a rogue from this limitation.
Defense: Rogue defense is very poor. They seldom wear much armor and have low hit points, and they are also vulnerable to mind-control effects. The one thing they are good at is dodging area attacks such as blasting spells and dragonfire.
Social: Rogues who choose to specialize in it can be excellent at social interaction. They have plenty of skill points, and have access to all social skills. “Face” rogues are second only to bards where social encounters are concerned.
Healing: Rogues have no healing abilities of their own, but they can learn the Use Magic Device skill, which lets them use wands and scrolls with healing spells. A rogue can serve as a healer in a pinch, though other classes are better at it.
Utility: Utility is a rogue’s main talent. They have just about every skill imaginable, and they can handle traps better than any other class. Most rogues are very good at stealth and alertness. A rogue with a well-chosen skill array can handle most of a party’s utility needs.
Mechanics: The most difficult part of rogue mechanics is sneak attack. Once you master that, the rest is simple. Creating a rogue can take a while; since your skills are a very important part of your abilities, you need to pick them with some care.

Rogue Tips: Dexterity is paramount for most rogues, who use it for stealth skills, defense, and attack. If you want to be good at social skills, Charisma is also a good investment, and Intelligence will help you make the most of your extensive skill list.

Sneak attack is much more effective in melee than with a ranged weapon, since you can’t flank with a bow. Unlike most melee warriors, rogues can do very well with two-weapon fighting, since the sneak attack bonus applies to every hit, and they usually have a high enough Dexterity to qualify for the feat.

Because most of your damage is coming from the sneak attack bonus, your choice of weapon is not that important, and you do not need much Strength. Weapon Finesse is almost a required feat for melee rogues.

Even though rogues have the most skill points of any class, you’ll be amazed at how fast you run out when you start picking skills. Talk to the DM and the other players and try to get a feel for what sort of tasks you’ll be called on to perform. A rogue’s role depends very heavily on the campaign, and it’s no fun to be stuck with a lot of ranks in Disable Device if you never encounter a single trap.

SORCEROR
Offense: Sorcerors have very potent offensive capabilities. As arcane casters, they specialize in spells that make their enemies miserable, mind-controlled, or dead. To a lesser extent, they can boost their allies’ abilities as well. They lack a wizard’s versatility, but they compensate by being able to cast the same spell over and over again until the enemy dissolves into a puddle of goo.
Defense: At low levels, sorceror defense is extremely weak. Their low hit points, lack of armor, and high offensive capability combine to make them juicy targets for intelligent foes. Later on, sorcerors can use battlefield control spells such as wall of force, abjuration magic, and illusions such as improved invisibility and mirror image to keep enemies at bay. They remain easy to crush if the enemy catches them, but catching them becomes damnably difficult.
Social: Sorcerors get access to the Bluff skill, and their Charisma is extremely high. Combined with charm spells and the like, this makes them very effective in situations where they need to bamboozle some hapless NPC. They are less skilled at diplomacy and negotiation, however.
Healing: Sorcerors have virtually no healing ability.
Utility: Sorcerors are very good at utility tasks, but not as good as wizards; their selection of spells known is too small to really cover this territory. A utility sorceror is likely to rely heavily on scrolls and wands.
Mechanics: Of the four “full casters” (cleric, druid, sorceror, and wizard), the sorceror is the easiest to master. You don’t have to worry about picking your spells every morning, nor do you have to keep track of which spells you have prepared. However, sorcerors also have the most potential for mistakes during character design. Clerics and druids get access to the whole spell list gratis, and wizards can rectify a mistake in spell selection by spending a little gold, but a sorceror’s spell choices are more or less permanent. If you choose useless spells, you’ll end up with a useless sorceror.

Sorceror Tips: Charisma is the be-all and end-all for sorcerors. It drives all of your abilities, so you should raise it as high as you can. After Charisma, Dexterity and Constitution are your most important attributes—Dexterity to improve your abysmal armor class and help with spells that call for an attack roll, and Constitution to raise your equally abysmal hit points and Fortitude saves.

When choosing spells, focus on spells you expect to use often. Spells like knock and magic aura can be very handy in the right situation, but you won’t use them often enough to justify including them in your spells known. Get them on scrolls instead.

Try to avoid overlap in your spells. You want to cover as much territory as possible. If you already know fireball, it makes no sense to get lightning bolt as well. Pick up haste or suggestion instead.

While inexperienced players often gravitate toward the “blasting” spells (magic missile, fireball, and the like), these are in fact some of the least effective weapons at a sorceror’s disposal. Spells that cripple your enemies, empower your allies, and control the battlefield are usually far more effective. Look for spells that can effectively take an enemy (or several enemies!) out of the fight on a failed save, such as glitterdust and charm monster.

WIZARDS
Offense: Wizards have very potent offensive capabilities. As arcane casters, they specialize in spells that make their enemies miserable, mind-controlled, or dead. To a lesser extent, they can boost their allies’ abilities as well. With careful preparation, a wizard can deliver a knockout punch to almost any foe.
Defense: At low levels, wizard defense is quite weak. Their low hit points, lack of armor, and high offensive capability combine to make them juicy targets for intelligent foes. Later on, they can use battlefield control spells such as wall of force, abjuration magic, and illusions such as improved invisibility and mirror image to keep enemies at bay. High-level wizards surround themselves in layers of arcane defenses that are all but impossible to penetrate.
Social: Wizards are not very good at social interaction. The best they can do is use charm and suggestion spells, which can be very effective in the right situation but often have nasty repercussions afterwards.
Healing: Wizards have virtually no healing ability.
Utility: Wizards are the supreme masters of utility. They have a spell for every conceivable situation, and with a day to rest and prepare, they can have it ready. If that’s not enough, they get Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat, which lets them arm themselves with a heap of scrolls in case they need a particular spell right away and don’t have time to rest. Not even a rogue can keep up with a wizard in this sphere.
Mechanics: Wizards require considerable bookkeeping. While they don’t have the complex special abilities of clerics and druids, they rely much more heavily on their spells, which means you have to consider your daily spell selection with care. This can get to be a nuisance for the rest of the party. Designing a wizard is not too hard, though you will want to think carefully about what spells to put in your spellbook.

Wizard Tips: Intelligence is absolutely vital to any wizard, and you should raise it as high as possible. After that, Dexterity and Constitution are your most important attributes—Dexterity to improve your abysmal armor class and help with spells that call for an attack roll, and Constitution to raise your equally abysmal hit points and Fortitude saves.

Your first choices for spells in your spellbook should be ones that are useful in a variety of situations. Once you have those covered, you can start moving on to the more esoteric spells. As a wizard, your power grows with every spell in your spellbook, so be on the watch for any opportunity to scribe a new spell. Whenever you find an arcane scroll, check to see if it’s a spell you know already, and whenever you defeat an enemy wizard, do everything in your power to locate her spellbook.

While inexperienced players often gravitate toward the “blasting” spells (magic missile, fireball, and the like), these are in fact some of the least effective weapons at a wizard’s disposal. Spells that cripple your enemies, empower your allies, and control the battlefield are usually far more effective. Look for spells that can effectively take an enemy (or several enemies!) out of the fight on a failed save, such as glitterdust and charm monster.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-09-12, 12:38 AM
What you have is nice but for a beginner's guide I'd suggest keeping it as simple as possible because there are so many rules to learn and become familiar with starting off.

I'd put a little more emphasis on the low level Fighter and Sorcerer core classes since they are probably the two easiest classes to learn the game with and entail the least record keeping and game decision making.

I'd recommend including the Battle Sorcerer variant and a couple of good general core feats for low levels like Improved Initiative, Power Attack and Cleave.

Suggested armor and weapons would be nice.

Kurald Galain
2007-09-12, 04:18 AM
I think this is an excellent piece of work. I'll be printing this and showing it to novice players, it'd be a great help.



What you have is nice but for a beginner's guide I'd suggest keeping it as simple as possible ... I'd recommend including the Battle Sorcerer variant
Precisely to keep it simple, I'd say it doesn't need information on variant classes, racial substitution levels, and so forth.