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[AnimeTheCat]

Ok, so I read more in this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?563757-New-to-PF-3-5-vet) thread and on the prd site and I think it's time for me to start formulating my first pathfinder character. There are 5 other players, I'll talk about their prospective character choices below.

A) ranged inquisitor (veteran PF player)
B) melee magus, primarily damage (veteran PF player)
C) sorcerer focusing on evocation and necromancy (veteran PF player)
D) something heavy armor/front line, swinging in the cleric/paladin/fighter direction (new to TTRPGs)
E) dex-based "charlatan" fighter type, so leaning bard direction, possibly sounds like a dandy archetype ranger or skald. (Limited 3.P experience, mostly 5e)

The campaign is taking place in Cheliax (I think that's how its spelled) and we, the party, will be an newly graduated group of cadets assigned to a 6 month tour on a Chelish airship as something of an "away team". Apparently Cheliax is evil, so the party will range on the evil side, however neutral is fine.

All that being said, it doesn't seem like this group composition needs any more in the way of melee combatants, unless they bring additional diversity to the table, such as buffing the party or debuffing the enemy. Something I considered was a Cavallier or Samurai built to demoralize, maybe order of the whip as well? I would enjoy a LE character i think. What are some other non-magical options that can bring additional use and party adaptability to the front lines?

What kinds of Gish type classes are more designed for buffing and debuffing rather than damage output? I would rather stay away from pure spellcasters that are a gish only when buffed and are competent even when not buffed. I would also prefer not to play a cleric or other divine class.

After a character building session I'm going to be playing the role of divine spellcaster and will be the one primarily responsible for emergency healing/stabilizing in combat and post combat healing wand use.

We are level 6, and I would like to play a packmaster druid. Aside from having the odd restoration prepared, in a wand, or in a potion, what do I need to know to heal with a druid? The party will be combining their wealth to get at least a wand of cure moderate and what I guess is the equivalent to lesser vigor. For my first animal, I'm looking at a dire rat with the precocious archetype and I'm planning on playing either a human or a halfling with either the eye for talent or caretaker alternate racial traits. With both of those taken in to account, my dire rat should have an int of 7 at effective druid level 4 so I should be able to give it relatively complex commands and expect decent results. My other animals I'm looking at are a Baboon and a Giant Bat, with the plan of having the baboon get a high enough intelligence to know how to throw grenades from the bat's back. If I go halfling, I'll forego the baboon and just ride the bat myself.

Questions for this idea, is the healing feasible? Seems like it, but maybe I'm missing something. Does the +2 to animal companion ability score of your choosing apply to just one animal companion, or any that you acquire? The wording leads me to believe it should, but I could be wrong. Are there any good archetypes for the giant bat or baboon? What feats would be worth looking in to for a highly intelligent dire rat? I'm sure I'll have more questions later, but this is it for now.

[Long_shanks]

How about Unchained rogue? You can actually debuff really well with them (through their class features, Intimidate, feats and race choice... have a handbook (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GG-j2Uu9bT3rGEMtS5tx8Fu_7i8heNyKxZDPBFwjN9E/mobilebasic)! Look for the Ifrit build, though that might be a tad too much ;)). Plus, you can be the skillmonkey of the group, which seems to be lacking a bit so far.

[AnimeTheCat]

How about Unchained rogue? You can actually debuff really well with them (through their class features, Intimidate, feats and race choice... have a handbook (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GG-j2Uu9bT3rGEMtS5tx8Fu_7i8heNyKxZDPBFwjN9E/mobilebasic)! Look for the Ifrit build, though that might be a tad too much ;)). Plus, you can be the skillmonkey of the group, which seems to be lacking a bit so far.

The guy playing the inquisitor said he was going to be more skill focused, do inquisitors not cover that? Also, if there an inquisitor and a bard, wouldn't they be able to cover the majority of skills pretty handily? The 3 veteran players are pretty much decided. The other 2 are not as much, but have a general idea set.

[Long_shanks]

The guy playing the inquisitor said he was going to be more skill focused, do inquisitors not cover that? Also, if there an inquisitor and a bard, wouldn't they be able to cover the majority of skills pretty handily? The 3 veteran players are pretty much decided. The other 2 are not as much, but have a general idea set.

I missed the bard in the list of players. However, there is still no one to readily cover the scouting role and the usual roguey stuff. Plus, with 6 characters, there is bound to have some overlap, especially on skills; it's not the end of the world.
I suggested URogue because 1- There is no rogue in the group, 2- URogue is actually pretty good and fun to play (you are dex SAD right of the bat, well at level 3... and there are debuffing options, like debilitating strike, hardwired straight in the class), 3- the debuffing, sneak attacking is pretty to play evil as hell and will fit right in the Cheliaxian empire ;)

[AnimeTheCat]

I missed the bard in the list of players. However, there is still no one to readily cover the scouting role and the usual roguey stuff. Plus, with 6 characters, there is bound to have some overlap, especially on skills; it's not the end of the world.
I suggested URogue because 1- There is no rogue in the group, 2- URogue is actually pretty good and fun to play (you are dex SAD right of the bat, well at level 3... and there are debuffing options, like debilitating strike, hardwired straight in the class), 3- the debuffing, sneak attacking is pretty to play evil as hell and will fit right in the Cheliaxian empire ;)

Hmm... I suppose I could play a rogue. They're not my favorite, but I guess I could play it like an Eye from Handmaids Tale. Ultimately, I think I will end up playing LE as it speaks to me most in RP. "Compliance will be rewarded" and all. Out of curiosity, how is the hunter hybrid class? Is there any non-magical animal handling class or archetype? Animals are diverse and versatile, and something like a beastmaster could be fun.

[Arkain]

Technically speaking it sounds like you may not have all that much divine spellcasting. Hunter would cover that partially, but if you're not big on pet themed character, that's probably not for you, though I can't say much on that subject matter, haven't ever played or seen a hunter in action. If you want an animal based character without magic you could go for cavalier, though, as they do get animal companions and teamwork as well. There's also an archetype that allows for companions that aren't horses. If you want a divine gish that isn't a cleric or inquisitor, warpriest might be worth a look.
Staying in the realm of somewhat magical classes and skills, there's also the alchemist and investigator. Both share the alchemy aspect, with the investigator being much more focused on skills, to the point that it's probably the best skill monkey in the game (I think the only non-class skills, for example, are fly and swim?) so you can go literally anywhere with that, including archetypes that go into various directions. What investigator doesn't and to my knowledge can't get would be the bombs (or sneak attack, if you go vivisectionist), i.e. alchemists can be a bit more focused on AoE stuff (not necessarily damage, mind you) and mutagen beyond the basic buff version. You do get plenty of others goodies though, like inspiration and a pseudo sneak attack. Only problem might be if you start below say level 3, as the first levels are probably going to be somewhat awful.
If you want the rogue part and be more martially inclined without going full ranger, slayer may be worth your time. Slightly inferior in the skills and sneak attack department, but gets, for example, ranger goodies, which can be quite nice. That said, unchained rogue is fine, if you like your plain rogues.

[Andor13]

If you are a fan of the Tome of Battle from 3.5 and your GM allows 3rd party stuff then the Martial Initiator system was ported over to PF by Dreamscarred press. It's generally well regarded from what I can tell. You can find it on the SRD here. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/)

Of particular note, the Harbinger is a mobile skirmisher type who in an effective debuffer, the Warlord is similar to the 3.5 Warblade and can provide useful party buffs.

To add some extra evil, there is a 'supernatural evil (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/black-seraph-maneuvers)' themed martial tradition you can learn, which specializes in intimidation and has some useful ranged maneuvers. You can access to it by joining the Black Thorn knights (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/martial-traditions/black-thorn-knights/) who have great flavor and work well for Cheliax.

If you want to stick with Paizo stuff, you might take a look at the Slayer, (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/slayer/) which is designed as a Ranger/Rogue hybrid. My wife is playing one right know and just butchers things in melee.

[AnimeTheCat]

I'm enjoying the concept of a hunter, I just hope the DM isnt crazy about enforcing alignment requirements. I like the idea of being a scout that uses animals to get things accomplished, and having what equates to a beastmaster on the airship could prove valuable.

What feats or features exist for expanding what creatures I can effect with wild empathy? Better yet, is there a hunter handbook I can cruise through? I haven't searched yet, so I may find it on my own shortly.

[Geddy2112]

If you are looking to boost your wild empathy, the vermin heart (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/vermin-heart/) feat is exactly that. You can wild empathy vermin and treat vermin as animals for the purpose of spells that affect animals.

For hunter, one of the most powerful builds is riding on the back of a pouncing big cat, using a lance and ubercharging much like a caviler with a deathly powerful mount. If you want a more scout build, you can have a bird companion; a large bird that you could ride(or medium if you are a small creature) would be stronger for your campaign as you are going to be in an airship. Even a small bird like a falcon would be very good for scouting, combined with the improved empathetic link you get to UAV within a mile(and see further than that, just have to keep a mile between you and your companion).

The teamwork feats generally benefit your class best if you are fighting alongside your animal, so if you want to do ranged or have your animal companion not fighting side by side consider an archetype that replaces teamwork feats and hunter tactics.

To bypass the alignment requirement and get rid of teamwork feats(for domain powers and a boost to your companion) I highly suggest the divine hunter archetype.

[Arkain]

I'm enjoying the concept of a hunter, I just hope the DM isnt crazy about enforcing alignment requirements. I like the idea of being a scout that uses animals to get things accomplished, and having what equates to a beastmaster on the airship could prove valuable.

What feats or features exist for expanding what creatures I can effect with wild empathy? Better yet, is there a hunter handbook I can cruise through? I haven't searched yet, so I may find it on my own shortly.

There's a bunch of handbooks for basically everything. (http://zenithgames.blogspot.com/2012/11/the-comprehensive-pathfinder-guides.html)

You might want to look into the packmaster archetype, which allows you to divide your druid levels for animal companions up amongst several companions. Boon Companion should allow you to regain those (you could even take it several times if you want), so you could sacrifice a couple levels for say a bird and/or something like a wolf and then use the rest for your tiger or whatever else you want as a primary companion.

[AnimeTheCat]

If you are looking to boost your wild empathy, the vermin heart (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/vermin-heart/) feat is exactly that. You can wild empathy vermin and treat vermin as animals for the purpose of spells that affect animals.

For hunter, one of the most powerful builds is riding on the back of a pouncing big cat, using a lance and ubercharging much like a caviler with a deathly powerful mount. If you want a more scout build, you can have a bird companion; a large bird that you could ride(or medium if you are a small creature) would be stronger for your campaign as you are going to be in an airship. Even a small bird like a falcon would be very good for scouting, combined with the improved empathetic link you get to UAV within a mile(and see further than that, just have to keep a mile between you and your companion).

The teamwork feats generally benefit your class best if you are fighting alongside your animal, so if you want to do ranged or have your animal companion not fighting side by side consider an archetype that replaces teamwork feats and hunter tactics.

To bypass the alignment requirement and get rid of teamwork feats(for domain powers and a boost to your companion) I highly suggest the divine hunter archetype.

What about for dragons or abberrations and such? I know in 3.5 (I Races of the Dragon I think) there's the Drangonwrangler (or something) feat that lets you use Handle Animal on Dragons. Is there anything like that in Pathfinder? Expanding the list of eligible targets for my abilities will help to better close any gaps in party composition.

I'm not looking in particular for raw power of my own, it looks like there's already a blaster sorcerer, a front line magus, and two front line fighter/paladin/cleric types. It seems like scouting (as someone mentioned above) is what we're lacking most. I'll know more Saturday after session 0.


There's a bunch of handbooks for basically everything. (http://zenithgames.blogspot.com/2012/11/the-comprehensive-pathfinder-guides.html)

You might want to look into the packmaster archetype, which allows you to divide your druid levels for animal companions up amongst several companions. Boon Companion should allow you to regain those (you could even take it several times if you want), so you could sacrifice a couple levels for say a bird and/or something like a wolf and then use the rest for your tiger or whatever else you want as a primary companion.

Packmaster looks fantastic! I was worried about what kind of animal companion I was going to pick, but that makes it better. I would definitely want to keep my teamwork feats with that. Aren't there teamwork feats that let you and the teammate take the best of your rolls for skill checks like stealth and such? Have an abnormally sneaky stegasaurus or something cool like that.

On another note, are there any templates like the 3.5 warbeast one that can be applied to animals with the Handle Animal skill? I know that it's common practice to apply those to animals if you're an animal wrangler in 3.5, but do they exist in PF?

[Andor13]

Packmaster looks fantastic! I was worried about what kind of animal companion I was going to pick, but that makes it better. I would definitely want to keep my teamwork feats with that. Aren't there teamwork feats that let you and the teammate take the best of your rolls for skill checks like stealth and such? Have an abnormally sneaky stegasaurus or something cool like that.

All the teamwork feats. (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/teamwork-feats)

Looks like Stealth Synergy is what you want. (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/stealth-synergy-teamwork/)

[Geddy2112]

What about for dragons or abberrations and such? I know in 3.5 (I Races of the Dragon I think) there's the Drangonwrangler (or something) feat that lets you use Handle Animal on Dragons. Is there anything like that in Pathfinder? Expanding the list of eligible targets for my abilities will help to better close any gaps in party composition.

There is greater wild empathy (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/greater-wild-empathy/), but it has serious limitations as they have to have intelligence 2 or less. There are ways to wild empathy other creatures, but those are mostly druid archetypes and other class features, not feats.



Looks like Stealth Synergy is what you want. (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/stealth-synergy-teamwork/)
2nd stealth synergy, with packmaster this feat becomes outright bonkers. I also like tribe mentality for a teamwork feat, it helps sure up the weak will saves of hunter and their animals.

If you want to go sneaky, being small is probably still your best bet. +4 to stealth and being able to ride medium companions give you a ton of options. You can even ride small companions with the undersize mount (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/undersized-mount-combat/) feat.

[AnimeTheCat]

All the teamwork feats. (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/teamwork-feats)

Looks like Stealth Synergy is what you want. (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/stealth-synergy-teamwork/)

yeah, stealth synergy was the one I briefly saw. Does it work how I think it works? Where if you're within range you all roll and take the highest roll?

Ok, so my current plan is to make a Packmaster Hunter that focuses on stealth and scouting skills and uses animals that he/she has trained alongside his/her animal companions to do battle. What kind of spells work best to support a scout/support (secondary) spellcaster? I know Entangle is usually the Bog Standard for BFC from druids, but I also know that i get both the Druid spell list and the Ranger spell list.

I know in 3.5 there are some gems on the ranger spell list that belong with level 4+ characters. does the same hold true in PF or is it largely more of the same from druid? Like, in 3.5 the spell Hunter's Mercy is fantastic thanks to the x3 multiplier on bows. Are there other similarly worthwhile spells on the Ranger list in Pathfinder? This is primarily just a preliminary question as I'll be looking into the spells myself as well. But if there are any stand-outs, attention would be appreciated.

As for Animal Companions (Plural because reasons). Halflings have an alternate racial trait that allows them to grant their animal companion +2 in any ability score in return for no bonuses to some skills and no bonuses to their saves. I was thinking about starting the game with an AC with 4 Int. My thoughts were to have a smallish animal companion, something like a mouse or other unsuspecting animal, that I can apply the precocious archetype to and have be rather intelligent. They would be my primary AC and the one that if I need eyes somewhere I can use and they will be intelligent enough to discern viable evidence or other such tasks that any normal animal would not be able to. Would this be viable, in the general populace's opinion? Secondly, I would like to get a Giant Bat for flight and blindsense. The last one would be something for protection, like a striker type (big cat, dinosaur, etc). What other animals would serve well? A grappler (Ape? Bear? Snake?)? We're starting at level 3, so I can have up to 3 ACs (at varying levels if I take the Boon Comapnion feat). And then whatever other animals I've used Wild Empathy on and trained.

As an additional question, is there a feat, archetype, or trait or something that would allow me to speed up the action it takes to direct a non-animal compaion with Handle Animal?

[Arkain]

yeah, stealth synergy was the one I briefly saw. Does it work how I think it works? Where if you're within range you all roll and take the highest roll?

Ok, so my current plan is to make a Packmaster Hunter that focuses on stealth and scouting skills and uses animals that he/she has trained alongside his/her animal companions to do battle. What kind of spells work best to support a scout/support (secondary) spellcaster? I know Entangle is usually the Bog Standard for BFC from druids, but I also know that i get both the Druid spell list and the Ranger spell list.

I know in 3.5 there are some gems on the ranger spell list that belong with level 4+ characters. does the same hold true in PF or is it largely more of the same from druid? Like, in 3.5 the spell Hunter's Mercy is fantastic thanks to the x3 multiplier on bows. Are there other similarly worthwhile spells on the Ranger list in Pathfinder? This is primarily just a preliminary question as I'll be looking into the spells myself as well. But if there are any stand-outs, attention would be appreciated.

As for Animal Companions (Plural because reasons). Halflings have an alternate racial trait that allows them to grant their animal companion +2 in any ability score in return for no bonuses to some skills and no bonuses to their saves. I was thinking about starting the game with an AC with 4 Int. My thoughts were to have a smallish animal companion, something like a mouse or other unsuspecting animal, that I can apply the precocious archetype to and have be rather intelligent. They would be my primary AC and the one that if I need eyes somewhere I can use and they will be intelligent enough to discern viable evidence or other such tasks that any normal animal would not be able to. Would this be viable, in the general populace's opinion? Secondly, I would like to get a Giant Bat for flight and blindsense. The last one would be something for protection, like a striker type (big cat, dinosaur, etc). What other animals would serve well? A grappler (Ape? Bear? Snake?)? We're starting at level 3, so I can have up to 3 ACs (at varying levels if I take the Boon Comapnion feat). And then whatever other animals I've used Wild Empathy on and trained.

As an additional question, is there a feat, archetype, or trait or something that would allow me to speed up the action it takes to direct a non-animal compaion with Handle Animal?

My understanding is that everyone who can use it rolls and you take the highest roll. In the sense of the die result. If you've got a 3, 15, 12, 9 and 11 rolled, everyone may take the 15 as the rolled result, then "add all [...] modifiers to Stealth", i.e. their own skill's value. So if everybody except one participant are running around in heavy armor without points in stealth, they'll be far worse than the one who's actually good at sneaking, possibly ruining the attempt.

It's really banal and not related to exclusively ranger spells, but what I immediately thought of were Strong Jaw, Reduce Animal and Animal Growth. If you have animals of various sizes for various roles, those might become tremendously interesting (Animal Growth rather late, admittedly), even more so if you take the feat mentioned earlier in the thread that allows you to ride a mount that isn't larger than you, even more so if you add some Reduce Person for yourself and are already small to begin with. Invasion of the tiniest horde?
In terms of not overlacking spells, there's stuff like Gravity Bow, Lead Blades and Bow Spirit, that a druid doesn't get that are fairly straight forward combat stuff. But also spells like Named Bullet, Bloody Arrows and Know the Enemy that may be interesting and are otherwise most likely available to inquisitors. Also, Burst of Speed if you need to quickly need to reposition yourself. Chameleon Stride to add some more stealth to the mix. You'll lose out a bit in terms of spells that focus on favored enemies, though.

Fast Empathy (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/fast-empathy/) speeds up your wild empathy considerably, which may be what you're looking for in terms of manipulating animals.

[Florian]

@Anime:

Can you ask your fellow players what exact archetypes they have chosen? Those can radically alter how a class functions, so that would be good to know.

Looking at the A to E list so far, I´d actually advice you to not go for one of the "pet classes", meaning Hunter. So far, 4 out of 5 characters are weapon based, 3 of them potentially with a melee focus. I suspect that the Sorcerer will also aim towards some minionmancy.
Means the battlefield is pretty much crowded and the hunter companion sucks compared to a focused melee class and is downright useless when a regular shocking grasp Magus is along.

Also understand that we talk about something very different from 3.5E, when we talk about "Gish" in PF. That's not "16 BAB, 9th level spells", were talking about the ability to cast and fight at the same time. So while the basic Sorcadin build still exists, it doesn't matter compared to a Magus or Warpriest.

So, again, looking at you roster, I notice a certain lack of classic BFC. Since you don't want to play a full caster, I´d actually advice you towards one of the "mad bomber" Alchemist builds.

[AnimeTheCat]

So I don't know what Archetypes everyone else has chosen, but I do know the inquisitor has the social skills pretty well handled. We're level 6 and those skills are all +10 or higher (diplomacy being the lowest at +10, Intimidate and Sense Motive being the highest at +16).

My thoughts on the Packmaster were to use the load of animal companions I can get my hands on for utilitarian purposes such as getting free blindsense, flight, etc. Less for combat. Possibly one pet for use in combat, something along the lines of an ape or other animal that can move and lock down a specific area or opponent. I do see the issue with being a "Minionmancer" in this party so I would make moves specifically not to slow down combat (rolling ahead, limiting the number of combat creatures I have, etc) and have different animals for specific purposes. I'm not entirely tied down to the Packmaster Hunter idea either, so I'm still an open book.

Dependent upon the last two members, my concepts that I'm working with now are the Packmaster Hunter (versatility through animal companions and teamwork feats), Necromancy themed Cleric (probably the lowest on my priority list, since Undead minionmancy is worse than animal minionmancy, in 3.5 at least...), and Assassination focused Unchained Rogue (not sure on archetype, but focusing on the Int skills as opposed to the Cha skills). I was thinking Bard early on, but that would be a lot of charisma in the group and there are other things that need targeting such as disable device and divine magic. I suppose a Bard could do well for buffing as well as disable device... so put some kind of Bard on that list, but I prefer to be a Perform (Oratory) Bard rather than some weird dancing bard or something... It's just personal taste. I would even be ok with some kind of Perform (Sing) or other instrument like Perform (Strings). Anything but dancing.

What suggestions does everyone have to work with beyond those four (Hunter, Cleric, U Rogue, Bard) class choices? I can fit my personal flavor and character background regardless of class, so this is purely a synergistic mechanical decision.

[CharonsHelper]

If #5 doesn't decide to go bard, it would be a great addition to the group since most of the party makes attack rolls. As an FYI - bards are one thing that Pathfinder really upgraded relative to 3.5's version. You can go several different directions, but melee buffing bards are actually my favourite.

If #5 goes bard, I'd go with a monk. Monks LOVE having a bard in the group because their buffing lets their 'flurry of misses' become brutal, and with that mix you wouldn't have anyone who is very tanky. And as a heads up - Pathfinder monks are WAY better than their 3.5 counterparts. Not the core one - but going either Unchained Monk or a mix of archetypes is very solid (always qinggong and generally 1-2 other archetypes). But probably go Unchained since it's simpler to build and is solid from level 1. However, Drunken Masters (can drink booze for more Ki) can feel almost like a gish once they get Scorching Ray at 5ish.

Actually - if you want to get tricky, a Qinggong/Sensei/Drunken Master monk can fill a similar role to the bard in a party if #5 doesn't go bard. They get Inspire Courage, and eventually they can buff everyone and at level 10 give everyone True Strike every turn. But while very effective - it's an odd sort of build.

You could also go with a Bloodrager. They are basically a slightly weaker barbarian who also gets some arcane casting (at the rate that ranger/paladin get divine) and a sorcerer bloodline - and can cast when raging.

[Florian]

@Anime:

Ok, I begin to see where we're getting "lost in translation" when it comes to the exact detailed differences between the editions.

Unlike 3.5E, PF follows the "template route" when it comes to companions and minions. Meaning that most of the time, your class provides the basic framework and the "animal" (or whatever) is just a template you apply to said framework. For example, there's a marked difference between the critter "Grizzly Bear" and the animal companion "Grizzly Bear", as the later is a template you use on the generic class feature "Animal Companion".

Like everything related to shapeshifting and "change"-type spells, that's a thing that has fundamentally changed. Instead of gaining the physical stats of the critter "Grizzly", the companion and shapeshifter will get a static +2 to STR and CON and that's it.

Your assassin idea can actually be done using the Slayer class instead of U-Rogue. The class features are INT-based and it´s very easy to build a dedicated debuff-machine. Thing is, like with anything based on Ranger, it would help to know terrain and standard enemies.

[AnimeTheCat]

I made some edits to the OP after a character building session. I have a plan, but I need some help. Edits below:

After a character building session I'm going to be playing the role of divine spellcaster and will be the one primarily responsible for emergency healing/stabilizing in combat and post combat healing wand use.

We are level 6, and I would like to play a packmaster druid. Aside from having the odd restoration prepared, in a wand, or in a potion, what do I need to know to heal with a druid? The party will be combining their wealth to get at least a wand of cure moderate and what I guess is the equivalent to lesser vigor. For my first animal, I'm looking at a dire rat with the precocious archetype and I'm planning on playing either a human or a halfling with either the eye for talent or caretaker alternate racial traits. With both of those taken in to account, my dire rat should have an int of 7 at effective druid level 4 so I should be able to give it relatively complex commands and expect decent results. My other animals I'm looking at are a Baboon and a Giant Bat, with the plan of having the baboon get a high enough intelligence to know how to throw grenades from the bat's back. If I go halfling, I'll forego the baboon and just ride the bat myself.

Questions for this idea, is the healing feasible? Seems like it, but maybe I'm missing something. Does the +2 to animal companion ability score of your choosing apply to just one animal companion, or any that you acquire? The wording leads me to believe it should, but I could be wrong. Are there any good archetypes for the giant bat or baboon? What feats would be worth looking in to for a highly intelligent dire rat? I'm sure I'll have more questions later, but this is it for now.

[CharonsHelper]

I need to know to heal with a druid?

Have wands of Cure Light Wounds. That's it.

CLW wands are the most cost efficient, and healing in combat is nearly always a bad decision in Pathfinder as you'd be better off killing stuff rather than lessening damage. (Outside of very specialized Life Oracle builds and the Oradin.)

I'm a bit iffy on Packmaster (I believe that the druid version is Pack Lord. You already have a pretty big group, and pets inherently are going to take more time to run. I'd just be afraid of slowing down the game-play.

And frankly - as cool as the vibe is - Pack Lord is pretty sub-par as you basically have several pretty bad pets rather than one good one who will hit things and won't keel over from the first hit in combat.

[AnimeTheCat]

Have wands of Cure Light Wounds. That's it.

CLW wands are the most cost efficient, and healing in combat is nearly always a bad decision in Pathfinder as you'd be better off killing stuff rather than lessening damage. (Outside of very specialized Life Oracle builds and the Oradin.)

I'm a bit iffy on Packmaster (I believe that the druid version is Pack Lord. You already have a pretty big group, and pets inherently are going to take more time to run. I'd just be afraid of slowing down the game-play.

And frankly - as cool as the vibe is - Pack Lord is pretty sub-par as you basically have several pretty bad pets rather than one good one who will hit things and won't keel over from the first hit in combat.

I know about CLW wands, I was asking more if there was something more I should plan for. I also know minimizing damage done to the party via debuffs and killing the enemy first is more effective, i also know that a well timed healing spell can be the difference between life and death of a party member. Its situational.

The thing about the animals is that I'm not using them as combat creatures who will all be charging headlong into battle. Of the options I have chosen, none of them are primary damage dealers. The dire rat is designed to be my scout, tracker, and overall "skillmonkey" and bring a skillset to the party that is lacking, namely tracking and stealthy retrieval. The giant bat is designed to be both a sensor (40 ft blindsense) to augment my dire rat and baboon's scent abilities and serve as transportation of I go with a halfling. Although, I already mentioned that if I pick halfling, I'll be just taking the rat and bat. My contributions to combat will be spells and alchemical creations rather than damage (from myself or my animals). Since my animals are serving utilitarian functions, the pain of having split levels is alleviated greatly as I'm not counting so heavily on power and ability score increases. Since rats in particular are commonplace, the dire rat should be relatively safe even if it is detected, doubly so if I cast reduce animal on it to make it tiny. Now, if there are more useful animals to have around for non-combat roles, I'm happy to hear those too. The goal and point is to use animal companions differently than just meatshields or damage dealers in combat.

[Arkain]

Consider Signature Skill (Heal), as it would significantly bolster your mundane healing options, including healing ability damage.

In terms of spells, maybe have buffs like Barkskin and Resist Energy handy, to prevent damage before it happens. In terms of pure healing you'll be behind a cleric (due to lack of channel energy and delayed access to healing spells) and probably even a paladin, but there's other things you can do, so wands should be all good. The main problem is that you'll have to prepare Cure X Wounds or whatever else you want to cast at your real caster level or don't have in item form, as you can't spontaneously cast them. I'd recommend maybe also trying to keep a spell or two beyond CLW memorized just in case, as the wand will probably not be too helpful if somebody goes down in combat, unless you roll particularly well.

In terms of animals, I'd prefer a bird over a bat, but that might be a matter of taste. As a druid you'll be able to do the bird part yourself at any rate.

[AnimeTheCat]

Consider Signature Skill (Heal), as it would significantly bolster your mundane healing options, including healing ability damage.

In terms of spells, maybe have buffs like Barkskin and Resist Energy handy, to prevent damage before it happens. In terms of pure healing you'll be behind a cleric (due to lack of channel energy and delayed access to healing spells) and probably even a paladin, but there's other things you can do, so wands should be all good. The main problem is that you'll have to prepare Cure X Wounds or whatever else you want to cast at your real caster level or don't have in item form, as you can't spontaneously cast them. I'd recommend maybe also trying to keep a spell or two beyond CLW memorized just in case, as the wand will probably not be too helpful if somebody goes down in combat, unless you roll particularly well.

In terms of animals, I'd prefer a bird over a bat, but that might be a matter of taste. As a druid you'll be able to do the bird part yourself at any rate.

Didn't think about heal. In 3.5 its next to useless in most cases.

The sole reason I choose giant bat over giant bird is for blindsense. It's too useful as an always on special ability.

[Arkain]

Yeah, I figured as much. In my mind, bats are, well, blind beyond their echolocation's blindsense's reach, but I guess that technically that isn't the case in PF. Can't see anything indicating that in the statblock anyway.

[AnimeTheCat]

So, I think something that might help the party out would be a source of magic item creation. One way I was thinking about doing that was with a cleric that boosts Linguistics to the ends of the earth. Concept being to take the feat that lets you use linguistics in place of Use Magic Device (esoteric linguist I think) to cover the non-cleric spells that I would need to make magic items, then take the rest as Magic Item Creation Feats. With a source of magic item creation, and the party supplying the gold, I think that would be pretty useful. Could go with Tengu for the +4 bonus to the skill and 2 languages per point too and wrap that up in the Orator feat and play as a diplomat.

I could get behind crow man diplomat of Cheliax. Would need to be Neutral on the Good-Evil axis to channel positive energy and spontaneously cure, but DM said that's all good.

What other options exist for using the Linguistics skill? any other feats expand it's usefulness?

[Palanan]

Are you going with Packmaster hunter, or Pack Lord druid? Or is your DM allowing you to apply Packmaster to the druid?

As for races, don’t forget the halfling’s bonus to Stealth and AC, which will be handy if you’d rather avoid unwanted attention in melee.

[AnimeTheCat]

Are you going with Packmaster hunter, or Pack Lord druid? Or is your DM allowing you to apply Packmaster to the druid?

As for races, don’t forget the halfling’s bonus to Stealth and AC, which will be handy if you’d rather avoid unwanted attention in melee.

Packmaster hunter, pack lord druid. Not applying packmaster to druid.

[ezekielraiden]

So, I think something that might help the party out would be a source of magic item creation. One way I was thinking about doing that was with a cleric that boosts Linguistics to the ends of the earth. Concept being to take the feat that lets you use linguistics in place of Use Magic Device (esoteric linguist I think) to cover the non-cleric spells that I would need to make magic items, then take the rest as Magic Item Creation Feats. With a source of magic item creation, and the party supplying the gold, I think that would be pretty useful. Could go with Tengu for the +4 bonus to the skill and 2 languages per point too and wrap that up in the Orator feat and play as a diplomat.

Esoteric Linguistics only lets you use UMD for scrolls, unfortunately, not for all purposes. (It doesn't even let you use UMD for dodging the ability score requirements of a scroll-cast spell!) That said, there is a trait that lets you use UMD with Intelligence, "Pragmatic Activator," which might be useful. I do like the idea of a diplomat/crafter though, that's an unusual combination warranting a cool story--and since a diplomat wants good Cha, if you have the Int to make good use of Linguistics, you might as well pick up points in UMD as well.


What other options exist for using the Linguistics skill? any other feats expand it's usefulness?

Well, there's Amateur Investigator (gain a pool of inspiration points equal to your Int modifier) and Xenoglossy (DC 25 Linguistics check to 'speak' with someone whom you share no languages with). There's also the cracked gold nodule ioun stone, which gives a +1 competence bonus. Also, if you do a lot of summoning/planar binding, it's useful because not all of the things you can summon will speak Common or other typical languages, so specializing in summon-related stuff can be good (though you want to play them smart and snappy, to avoid slowing the game down).

Beyond that, I don't know a lot of ways to game the Linguistics skill.

[Florian]

@Anime:

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/magicItems/magicItemCreation.html

Please check how item crafting has changed in-between editions. In PF, a spell craft check is mandatory and you can voluntarily raise the DC for each prerequisite of an item that you can´t provide.
(Excpetions: Scrolls, Spell Trigger, Spell Activation items)

The regular approach to Clerics with healing abilities is going with medium-high CHA, Combat Reflexes and the full set of Summoning-focused powers. This will net you a decent UMD score, the right summoning spells are always better at healing than the cure spells line and you can get towards a whole lot of SLAs this way, which also count towards prerequisites when crafting.