Storm Kings Thunder Question *SPOILERS*

[Foxydono]

This post contains *SPOILERS* from the SKT campaign. If you do not want to know spoilers, please stop reading.

Long story short: after they leave the Eye of the All-Father, they run into dragon cultists from Klauth. He is one of the most ancients dragons alive. The cultists say that Klauth will reward them with treasure when they deal with the giant lords. Knowing my players, they will do exactly that. What should I do when they finish the campaign around 11th level and ask the cultists to bring them to their lair? The first question to answer is whether the cultists even know where is lair is. If I were Klauth I wouldn't tell them, but maybe he did.

Scenario 1: The cultists bring the party to Klauth his lair. They ask for a reward and Klauth laughs and tells them he might let them live if they hand over all their gear and money. A fight breaks out and they die or narrowly escape depending on how the fight goes.

Scenario 2: The cultist bring the party to Klauth his lair. Here he does the same as with scenario 1, only with back-up so he doesn't have to fight alone. This will mist certainly kill the party as they only have a small chance of winning if they fight only him, let alone with back-up.

Scenario 3: The cultists bring the party to a place with a trap set up by Klauth (probably nowhere near his lair), giving them a decent chance to survive, but it will be a deadly fight.

Scenario 4: I'm DMíng the most ancient of dragons, hes not stupid. He sets up a trap as with scenario 3 and if they survive he swoops in and kills them if they are low on resources.

Scenario 5: The cultist leave or have no actual idea how to come to Klauth. This will make the party a bit sad as I kill their possible reward.

Scenario 6: A fight breaks out in either scenario 1-4, but he doesn't kill the party, but knocks them out and takes them prisoner leaving them a chance to escape.

If I were an evil ancient red dragon, I'd probably choose option 4 as it is almost certain death for the characters and you don't give price were your lair is. You even have the option not to swoop in if you deem it too dangerous. So, how should I handle this? Give the party a good chance or punish them for being foolish enough to go to the lair of the most ancient red dragon?

[ProsecutorGodot]

The solution to the scenario is actually written pretty explicitly.

The cultists know the way to Klauthen Vale, but they won’t lead the characters there willingly until after King Hekaton is set free. Although the cultists don’t know it, Klauth’s promise of a reward is disingenuous. If the characters accept his offer and visit him at the appointed time, he attacks them as they enter Klauthen Vale, seeing no further use for them. Old Snarl has no intention of giving the them even one coin from his vast hoard.

Scenario 7: He destroys the airship with them and the cultists on it, killing everyone.

[username1]

I would have the red dragon try and manipulate the players. If not all the giant chiefs are killed he tells them to do so before they gain their reward. When all the giants are dead he gives them each a "very powerful magic item". However the item is severally cursed making the characters very useless. He comes in for the kill.

[Foxydono]

The solution to the scenario is actually written pretty explicitly.

The cultists know the way to Klauthen Vale, but they won’t lead the characters there willingly until after King Hekaton is set free. Although the cultists don’t know it, Klauth’s promise of a reward is disingenuous. If the characters accept his offer and visit him at the appointed time, he attacks them as they enter Klauthen Vale, seeing no further use for them. Old Snarl has no intention of giving the them even one coin from his vast hoard.

Scenario 7: He destroys the airship with them and the cultists on it, killing everyone.

Ow, that is pretty harsh :D I should read the scenario better next time. I guess I will follow the script in this case. One more question though. Lets say Klauth flies towards them when they enter Klauthen Vale. They might think its because they will get a reward. However, when I say roll initiative, they will know that it is going to be a fight and react appropriately. For example by casting dimension door and getting of the airship on time. But this will depend on far away Klauth is. At what distance is it appropriate from them to know that it going to be a fight?

[ProsecutorGodot]

Ow, that is pretty harsh :D I should read the scenario better next time. I guess I will follow the script in this case. One more question though. Lets say Klauth flies towards them when they enter Klauthen Vale. They might think its because they will get a reward. However, when I say roll initiative, they will know that it is going to be a fight and react appropriately. For example by casting dimension door and getting of the airship on time. But this will depend on far away Klauth is. At what distance is it appropriate from them to know that it going to be a fight?

If they've gotten that far into SKT, start dropping not so subtle hints (they should drop naturally if they reach the climax of SKT anyway, but players tend to ignore them in the face of treasure) that Chromatic Dragons are not to be trusted, especially ancient ones.

In my opinion, if they think this is a genuine offer after the events of the campaign play out, they've more or less signed the death warrant. It's fairly common knowledge that Chromatic Dragons are bad news, and even more common knowledge that the thought of a Chromatic Dragon willingly giving something away is laughable.

Don't worry too much about it, unless they still plan to collect on the offer once they've fulfilled their end of the bargain. I would worry at that point.

[Foxydono]

If they've gotten that far into SKT, start dropping not so subtle hints (they should drop naturally if they reach the climax of SKT anyway, but players tend to ignore them in the face of treasure) that Chromatic Dragons are not to be trusted, especially ancient ones.

In my opinion, if they think this is a genuine offer after the events of the campaign play out, they've more or less signed the death warrant. It's fairly common knowledge that Chromatic Dragons are bad news, and even more common knowledge that the thought of a Chromatic Dragon willingly giving something away is laughable.

Don't worry too much about it, unless they still plan to collect on the offer once they've fulfilled their end of the bargain. I would worry at that point.
Haha, well I'm DM'ing two STK groups. One is with some new and some old players. They know for certain Red dragons are bad news and I have a feeling they will be a bit smarter. The other group is mostly new players and they still think white and blue dragons are pretty good. Maybe because they freed the two white dragons from the Frost giants. The blue dragon they only met once briefly and I tried my best to make him ignore them mostly and be rude. I do believe they think red and black are bad, but they seemed very excited about getting the reward when I told them. They just got the conch and are ready to teleport, so they have a bit to go before they clear the campaign, but I'm fearing the worse :p

[Biggstick]

Ow, that is pretty harsh :D I should read the scenario better next time. I guess I will follow the script in this case. One more question though. Lets say Klauth flies towards them when they enter Klauthen Vale. They might think its because they will get a reward. However, when I say roll initiative, they will know that it is going to be a fight and react appropriately. For example by casting dimension door and getting of the airship on time. But this will depend on far away Klauth is. At what distance is it appropriate from them to know that it going to be a fight?

You should have Players roll Initiative in situations that aren't necessarily supposed to be dealt with by combat means. Build them up so that they know that just because they're rolling Initiative, it doesn't mean they have to resolve the encounter with combative means.

But if that's how things go in your campaign, don't ever say the words, "Roll Initiative," upon seeing the Dragon. Describe the distance from which the party sees the creature flying at them.

DM: "As you enter the Vale, you feel a change of the winds. Looking to the north, you see a shape appearing from behind a mountaintop. It begins rapidly approaching the air ship."
Player: "Can we identify what it is DM?"
DM: "Make a Perception check. The shape is now within 750 feet of the air ship."
Player: "15, what do I see?"
DM: "The shape approaching appears massive, is a dark red, has wings, and you've caught a whiff of brimstone. The shape is now within 500' of the air ship."
Player: Deliberations between one another that last more then 30 seconds.
DM: "The shape is within 150 feet of the air ship. In front of you is very clearly a massive Red Dragon that is clearly slowing down as it flies closer to your ship. Roll Initiative."

It's important that you control the pace of how the Players react to what you're describing to them. Don't give them a ton of time to react. Be reasonable, but if they dilly-dally in the slightest, talk about how much closer the Dragon is to the ship. That final description is important before you tell them to roll Initiative. Use your narrative talent as a DM to make it appear that the Dragon is approaching for a conversation instead of the Fire Breath those high level adventurers deserve. ;)

[Envyus]

You should have Players roll Initiative in situations that aren't necessarily supposed to be dealt with by combat means. Build them up so that they know that just because they're rolling Initiative, it doesn't mean they have to resolve the encounter with combative means.

But if that's how things go in your campaign, don't ever say the words, "Roll Initiative," upon seeing the Dragon. Describe the distance from which the party sees the creature flying at them.

DM: "As you enter the Vale, you feel a change of the winds. Looking to the north, you see a shape appearing from behind a mountaintop. It begins rapidly approaching the air ship."
Player: "Can we identify what it is DM?"
DM: "Make a Perception check. The shape is now within 750 feet of the air ship."
Player: "15, what do I see?"
DM: "The shape approaching appears massive, is a dark red, has wings, and you've caught a whiff of brimstone. The shape is now within 500' of the air ship."
Player: Deliberations between one another that last more then 30 seconds.
DM: "The shape is within 150 feet of the air ship. In front of you is very clearly a massive Red Dragon that is clearly slowing down as it flies closer to your ship. Roll Initiative."

It's important that you control the pace of how the Players react to what you're describing to them. Don't give them a ton of time to react. Be reasonable, but if they dilly-dally in the slightest, talk about how much closer the Dragon is to the ship. That final description is important before you tell them to roll Initiative. Use your narrative talent as a DM to make it appear that the Dragon is approaching for a conversation instead of the Fire Breath those high level adventurers deserve. ;)

Unless they decide to attack I would let the Dragon get a surprise attack on them. As they are going to the Vale to meet the Dragon.

[Biggstick]

Unless they decide to attack I would let the Dragon get a surprise attack on them. As they are going to the Vale to meet the Dragon.

I used to be of a similar mindset, but if the party sees the Dragon approaching, they wouldn't have the surprised condition once Initiative is rolled. Per RAW, a surprise round in 5E shouldn't happen outside of Initiative, but actually within the first round of combat. Since the Players in question can see the Dragon, I don't understand how Players would be denied the opportunity to act within the first round of combat, as they wouldn't have the "surprised" condition.

But that's more dependent on how close you stick to the rules regarding combat initiative. If you allow Players to get such surprise rounds as well, I don't see a problem with allowing bad guys such a surprise round.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I used to be of a similar mindset, but if the party sees the Dragon approaching, they wouldn't have the surprised condition once Initiative is rolled. Per RAW, a surprise round in 5E shouldn't happen outside of Initiative, but actually within the first round of combat. Since the Players in question can see the Dragon, I don't understand how Players would be denied the opportunity to act within the first round of combat, as they wouldn't have the "surprised" condition.

But that's more dependent on how close you stick to the rules regarding combat initiative. If you allow Players to get such surprise rounds as well, I don't see a problem with allowing bad guys such a surprise round.

The only hope they'd have, as far as I can tell, is to use the magical plot mcguffin*
Conch of Teleportation
to escape the airship after Klauth approaches. With him being as fast as he is and having access to such a large breath attack, it's the only feasible way they would be able to escape once they've committed to making the trip to Klauthen Vale.

I hope that the players realize by the time they get this deep into the campaign that Klauth isn't a trustworthy sort because it's an absolute death sentence to a 9-10th level party. The only surefire way to be safe is to not make the trip.

[Unoriginal]

Ow, that is pretty harsh :D I should read the scenario better next time. I guess I will follow the script in this case. One more question though. Lets say Klauth flies towards them when they enter Klauthen Vale. They might think its because they will get a reward. However, when I say roll initiative, they will know that it is going to be a fight and react appropriately. For example by casting dimension door and getting of the airship on time. But this will depend on far away Klauth is. At what distance is it appropriate from them to know that it going to be a fight?

If they're getting attacked without knowing it (and the dragon won't give them the time to know) they get the surprised condition for the first turn, regardless of initiative.

[Biggstick]

If they're getting attacked without knowing it (and the dragon won't give them the time to know) they get the surprised condition for the first turn, regardless of initiative.

This only works if the dragon is able to get in range to attack them before they notice him. Though it's possible for a DM to set it up that the Dragon is able to attack from behind cloud cover (explaining why the party couldn't see him), that seems a bit malicious on the side of the DM.

If the party can see the Dragon approaching, they aren't surprised by the Dragon.

This is one of the reasons I'm a fan of simply having Players roll Initiative, even if the encounter is one in which they don't make a single attack roll. It teaches them that not every time Initiative is rolled to deal with the situation in a combative way. This training is important, especially if you're using Surprise as intended.