Party Composition Optimization

[MidgetMarine]

Hey GiTP, I wanted to talk about Party Optimization in terms of a party as a single cohesive unit for the three pillars of Social - Exploration - Combat
We have a level 1 party being crafted now in preparation for a Waterdeep: Dragon Heist campaign leading into Dungeon of the Mad Mage. Most of it's relatively set, but in putting the comp before the hivemind, we hope to see some new thoughts and maybe even synergies we hadn't thought of. Warning, a few of these are pretty highly optimized but it's a group of very experienced players.

Party:

Deep Gnome Abjurer
Background: Cloistered Scholar
Role: Control Magic + Research
Breakdown:
Deep Gnome Abjurer Wizard taking Svirfneblin Magic at level 4 to complete synergy, then continue to being designated counterspeller and dispeller.
In downtime, used as the loremaster and researcher.

Variant Human Spell Sniper Warlock/Sorcerer
(Pact of the Chain Raven Queen, Shadow Magic)
Role: Damage + Social
Eldritch Blast Spam build with social skills and scouting capability once Pact of the Chain and Sentinel Raven kick in.
Background: Criminal
In downtime, will be used to keep an ear on underground rumors and maybe help launder money.

Variant Human Warcaster Order Cleric/Paladin 2
Role:Healer + Support Caster
Breakdown:
Serves as the party's midline leader. Control spells refresh smite slots and spells become attacks from the other frontliners. Classic midline priest.
Background: Waterdhavian Noble
Used for access to noble families and high end goods.

Githzerai Inquisitive Rogue
Role: Social + Exploration
Background: Urchin
Breakdown: Serves as the party's social skill monkey, focused on rumors, intrigue, etc. Backline utility DPS. Urchin combines with Ranger's Natural Explorer excellently for double urban movement in chases and such.

Protector Aasimar Twilight Druid/Evoker Wizard/Grave Cleric
Role: DPS
Background: Haunted One
Breakdown: A version of the build known as the 'Nuclear Druid', this is meant for raw damage with some utility provided with Evoker and ungodly late game damage with Grave Cleric.

Hill Dwarf Monster Slayer Ranger/Life Cleric
Role: Frontliner + Healer
Background: Urban Bounty Hunter
Abusing Goodberry for sustain and starting Life Cleric for Heavy Armor, this and the Rogue make a potent urban exploration team, and Hill Dwarf + High Con means the Goodberry sustain is especially useful on him.

[Laserlight]

I suspect you are overthinking this, partly because some of it relies on player aptitude and interest. In my group, for example, no matter what the character sheet says, Alice and Beth are not going to do research or keep track of details, and Chad doesn't understand good tactics or keep track of his abilities.

[MidgetMarine]

I suspect you are overthinking this, partly because some of it relies on player aptitude and interest. In my group, for example, no matter what the character sheet says, Alice and Beth are not going to do research or keep track of details, and Chad doesn't understand good tactics or keep track of his abilities.

You're underestimating just how many veterans are in this game. Most of the party has made it through multiple editions, so we're brewing this campaign's party as a unit. Most of them have played the breadth of roles by now

[Galactkaktus]

I whould probably make the sorcerer the designated counterspeller since subtle spell makes their counterspells counterspell proof. Then i would switch the wizard to diviner in order to easier get important control spells through.

[GreyBlack]

.... Soooooo, maybe I'm biased, but a githyanki as a social skill monkey? In most adventure situations, I kinda feel like that would be like playing a Yuan-Ti as a social skill monkey. From a pure mechanics perspective, I guess, but it breaks down the second you get into the world and think about how monster races might be treated.

[bid]

You have some pretty MAD Wis/Int and Wis/Cha characters. And you ain't gaining much from it.

It's ok for high-powered rolled stats, but I'm not sure it's worth it.

[MidgetMarine]

You have some pretty MAD Wis/Int and Wis/Cha characters. And you ain't gaining much from it.

It's ok for high-powered rolled stats, but I'm not sure it's worth it.

Druid is Wis/Int because he needs access to Magic Missile and the Evocation ability scales with spell level, not wizard level. It's required for the Nuclear Druid to be able to output its ridiculous numbers.

The Cleric is just enough charisma to get the smite feature from Paladin and then back into Cleric.

[MidgetMarine]

.... Soooooo, maybe I'm biased, but a githyanki as a social skill monkey? In most adventure situations, I kinda feel like that would be like playing a Yuan-Ti as a social skill monkey. From a pure mechanics perspective, I guess, but it breaks down the second you get into the world and think about how monster races might be treated.

The player wanted both relevant mental stats for the Inquisitive, Int Wis and the extra cantrips help his utility. It was that or Yuan Ti, but with the Sorcerer covering some social ground, the rogue is looking to go more Int/Wis focused than Cha.

Edit: Meant Githzerai

[leogobsin]

.... Soooooo, maybe I'm biased, but a githyanki as a social skill monkey? In most adventure situations, I kinda feel like that would be like playing a Yuan-Ti as a social skill monkey. From a pure mechanics perspective, I guess, but it breaks down the second you get into the world and think about how monster races might be treated.

Well this kinda supposes that any random person even so much as knows what a Gith is, let alone is able to tell a Githzerai from a Githyanki by sight.

[Silkensword]

wouldnt archfey be a better social patron? :3

[leogobsin]

wouldnt archfey be a better social patron? :3

Ehh, not really. It might thematically be a better fit, but there's no real mechanical advantage. Fey Presence only lasts six seconds, so it's gonna be difficult to get any real use out of it in a social situation.

[MidgetMarine]

wouldnt archfey be a better social patron? :3

As mentioned, its about the same statistically, but the Warlock's Sentinel Raven & Raven form give more scouting capabilities than the Fey Presence gives social, so we stuck with a blaster-socials-scout

[bid]

Druid is Wis/Int because he needs access to Magic Missile and the Evocation ability scales with spell level, not wizard level. It's required for the Nuclear Druid to be able to output its ridiculous numbers.
I had to look that up.

You sculpt out the party from your huge AoE, and you add a few d10 to every missile. Magic missile single damage roll makes it a killer.

[PhoenixPhyre]

One warning: it's very easy to over optimize for module play. They're not designed for high op play at all.

They're designed to be doable by a basic rules party: champion fighter, life cleric, thief rogue, and evocation wizard, no feats. So a highly optimized party will either find them boring or require heavy DM work to modify to fit.

[mormon_soldier]

I think I'd be worried about only having your cleric/paladin and a ranger as your only martials. It looks like the party can dish out a lot of damage, but that's a lot of glass.

[MidgetMarine]

I had to look that up.

You sculpt out the party from your huge AoE, and you add a few d10 to every missile. Magic missile single damage roll makes it a killer.

Exactly, we figured that Twilight Druid's AoE capabilities were so good when combined with Evoker that it was worth the extra 1 level so that he can carve out space in Druid's large AoEs for allies, and also up the damage via Twilight Druid without having to worry about damaging allies more, perhaps even healing them.
Grave Cleric is just to allow us to isolate a single target later on in the game by having the Druid hold his action to Channel Divinity right before his next turn, when he unleashes a massive Magic Missile strike.

[MidgetMarine]

I think I'd be worried about only having your cleric/paladin and a ranger as your only martials. It looks like the party can dish out a lot of damage, but that's a lot of glass.

Ranger is wearing Heavy Armor and a Shield with the Defense Fighting Style, the Cleric/Paladin is the same, with the Ranger getting absurdly tanky later on.
1/3 primary 'martials' seems a fair balance to me

[MidgetMarine]

One warning: it's very easy to over optimize for module play. They're not designed for high op play at all.

They're designed to be doable by a basic rules party: champion fighter, life cleric, thief rogue, and evocation wizard, no feats. So a highly optimized party will either find them boring or require heavy DM work to modify to fit.

Oh we're well aware.
The good news is the Waterdeep modules seem very open to DM tweaking if need be.
Not to mention we play most of our modules in this group with every enemy having Max Hit Dice HP

[mormon_soldier]

1/3 primary 'martials' seems a fair balance to me

I don't think I'd noticed the ranger had heavy armor. Yeah, that's fair enough. You're probably as good as your going to get.

[Nidgit]

I'd also be concerned about your frontliners holding back enough for everyone else. Why not convert your Inquisitive into a skirmisher? He can already get nearly at-will Sneak Attacks through Insightful Fighting so he doesn't need to be Hiding every turn. Multiclassing Battlemaster or some variety of Monk up his combat versatility and make him capable of pinch-hitting on the front lines when necessary.

[MidgetMarine]

I'd also be concerned about your frontliners holding back enough for everyone else. Why not convert your Inquisitive into a skirmisher? He can already get nearly at-will Sneak Attacks through Insightful Fighting so he doesn't need to be Hiding every turn. Multiclassing Battlemaster or some variety of Monk up his combat versatility and make him capable of pinch-hitting on the front lines when necessary.

That's an interesting point.
The dips that immediately stick out to me are:
Fighter
Cleric, though I'm not immediately sure which Domain would have the best dip potential
Ranger
Wizard (Maybe War Magic or Illusionist?)

[Nidgit]

That's an interesting point.
The dips that immediately stick out to me are:
Fighter
Cleric, though I'm not immediately sure which Domain would have the best dip potential
Ranger
Wizard (Maybe War Magic or Illusionist?)
Fighter is a natural choice, of course, with everything but Cavalier having synergy in one way or another.
Cleric is fine but you've already got three of those and I don't think any Domains really stand out. Knowledge or Arcana could boost the skill monkey role.
Ranger definitely has potential, especially for a Gloomstalker. Lots of good options.
Wizard seems like an odd choice. No option besides Bladesinger is really suited to handling melee, so this feels more like doubling down on your strengths.

I really would encourage you to look at Monk. Shadow Monk in particular would make a phenomenal scout and make for some awesome 'watching from the shadows' play. Drunken Master and Open Hand are both very strong options too.

As a side note, why Githyanki? From an optimization standpoint, that +2 to STR really isn't doing anything. If the main purpose for taking the class is the medium Armor and extra proficiencies, Variant Human could accomplish the same thing with a more useful point spread. If Gith is the main draw, Githzerai gain a more useful ability boost and some equally useful spells, as well as an AC boost to match the medium armor AC.

[MidgetMarine]

As a side note, why Githyanki? From an optimization standpoint, that +2 to STR really isn't doing anything. If the main purpose for taking the class is the medium Armor and extra proficiencies, Variant Human could accomplish the same thing with a more useful point spread. If Gith is the main draw, Githzerai gain a more useful ability boost and some equally useful spells, as well as an AC boost to match the medium armor AC.

I Definitenly meant Githzerai.
I've been playing for years and still make that mistake.
Fixed.
Yeah it's a Githzerai rogue

[GreyBlack]

The player wanted both relevant mental stats for the Inquisitive, Int Wis and the extra cantrips help his utility. It was that or Yuan Ti, but with the Sorcerer covering some social ground, the rogue is looking to go more Int/Wis focused than Cha.

Edit: Meant Githzerai


Well this kinda supposes that any random person even so much as knows what a Gith is, let alone is able to tell a Githzerai from a Githyanki by sight.

I mean, I get it that, mechanically, it works pretty well, but, because of how "other" the Gith are, I would suspect that they'd be at a disadvantage when dealing with people.

It's kinda my problem with running an Orc barbarian into a town. "Orcs? You mean those guys who literally invaded our town last week and stole our children and crops? Oh, he says he's a good guy? Well, come on in!"

[MidgetMarine]

I mean, I get it that, mechanically, it works pretty well, but, because of how "other" the Gith are, I would suspect that they'd be at a disadvantage when dealing with people.

It's kinda my problem with running an Orc barbarian into a town. "Orcs? You mean those guys who literally invaded our town last week and stole our children and crops? Oh, he says he's a good guy? Well, come on in!"

I think it's closer to a normal dwarf vs a Dueregar than an Orc.
If you know what a Githyanki is, you're probably at least peripherally aware of the Githzerai and their differentiation.
Not to mention I think Waterdeep will be a more welcoming environment for Githzerai than most places given the diversity and magical history of the city.

[GreyBlack]

I think it's closer to a normal dwarf vs a Dueregar than an Orc.
If you know what a Githyanki is, you're probably at least peripherally aware of the Githzerai and their differentiation.
Not to mention I think Waterdeep will be a more welcoming environment for Githzerai than most places given the diversity and magical history of the city.

I guess? Problem, for me, is that the gith are literally from another plane of existence; they're kind of an analogue for literal extraterrestrial creatures. That's gonna kinda unnerve most ordinary folk, to my mind.

But this is all just my opinion; in my personal campaign setting, almost all of the races have died off and are extremely rare. Like, "All elves have class levels and there is no such thing as an Elven commoner" level of rarity. Other people can run it as that like.

[MidgetMarine]

Yeah we’d be worried about that if it weren’t a module specifically set in the Forgotten Realms, and specifically in Waterdeep, basically the single biggest urban hub. I think we’ll manage to skate by, and who knows, maybe the alien nature of the Gith can work in his favour.

[Darkbru]

You mention Grave Cleric for "ungodly damage" at late levels...is this because of the channel divinity they get? I was thinking about going straight grave cleric in a home game I'm joining, but everything I read about that subclass says it's painfully sub-optimal.

[MidgetMarine]

You mention Grave Cleric for "ungodly damage" at late levels...is this because of the channel divinity they get? I was thinking about going straight grave cleric in a home game I'm joining, but everything I read about that subclass says it's painfully sub-optimal.

It's not Grave Cleric, it's Grave Cleric in combination with Twilight Druid and Magic Missile.
It's a bit of an exploity build but here's the rundown I wrote for the guy who asked me to build it.
"Here’s the theory behind your build.
Harvest Scythe, your second Twilight Druid Ability level ability, is worded in a specific way:

“When you roll damage for a spell, you can increase that damage by spending dice from the pool. You can spend a number of d10 equal to half your druid level or less.”

So you can add damage dice to the damage of a spell when you roll damage for that spell.
So, if you can have a spell dealing multiple instances of damage from the same roll, you get more damage dice than you spent from your pool.

For example, if I cast a spell that deals 1d6 fire damage to everybody in a 10ft radius, and there are two people in that radius, if I spend 1d10 to boost the damage, I get more damage than I sacrificed since that 1d10 extra damage is hitting two people. So if we can find spells that use a single instance of damage for multiple iterations, we can multiply the value.

Where it gets ridiculous is when you have a spell that deals multiple instances of the same damage roll to a single creature in a single turn. Enter the Level 1 wizard spell Magic Missile:
“You create three magic darts. Each dart hits a visible creature of your choice. A dart deals 1d4+1 force damage to its target. The darts all strike simultaneously and you can direct them to hit one creature or several. “

At Higher Levels: The spell creates an additional dart for each level above 1st”
Please note that it automatically hits.
Normally this wouldn’t be a great synergy, except that Magic Missile is an interesting exception to most multiple damage instance spells in that you don’t roll a different dice for each missile.
You roll a single 1d4 once and then all the missiles deal the same damage.
This means when you spend Harvest Scythe damage on Magic Missile, each d10 gets added to the damage of every missile, meaning that you gain at least 3d10 net damage. The higher level spell you use to cast Magic Missile, the more darts and the more instances of that extra damage. So in addition to your usual Druid Area spells, you have the ability to dump Harvest Scythe dice into a barrage of arcane energy (Probably the classic wailing souls of the dead for you) that can’t miss (with a few exceptions).

In order to get this in the way that gives you the most bang for your buck, you’re going to take 2 levels of Evoker Wizard to allow you to avoid allies with your big area of effect spells and gets you both your animal companion and Magic Missile.
In order to make this as ridiculous as possible, we’ll dip Grave Cleric for their Channel Divinity that makes the next attack to hit a cursed creature deal double damage at level 2. This also gives you some super cool abilities for healing and helping the party and Grave Cleric is super fitting for your vibe.
Twilight Druid 16/Evoker Wizard 2/Grave Cleric 2 is a strong synergistic build that allows you access to some of the most powerful spells in the game (You won’t get 9th levels but it’s still quite good)

A 9th level casting of Magic Missile on a cursed target deals 2d4+16d10+2 per missile, with 11 missiles in total, with lower level Magic Missiles and non-cursed Twilight Magic Missile doing more reasonable, if nonetheless large, amounts of relatively unavoidable damage vs a party that has 2 powerful counterspellers, especially at later levels.

[bid]

A 9th level casting of Magic Missile on a cursed target deals 2d4+16d10+2 per missile, with 11 missiles in total, with lower level Magic Missiles and non-cursed Twilight Magic Missile doing more reasonable, if nonetheless large, amounts of relatively unavoidable damage vs a party that has 2 powerful counterspellers, especially at later levels.
8d10 because you can't spend more than half at a time, but it means you can go at it again.:smallbiggrin:

[MidgetMarine]

8d10 because you can't spend more than half at a time, but it means you can go at it again.:smallbiggrin:

No, 16d10 because the creature is vulnerable to to the attack.
Same reason why the missiles are dealing 2d4 +2 because that's essentially the calculation for doubling the damage.

[EdenIndustries]

8d10 because you can't spend more than half at a time, but it means you can go at it again.:smallbiggrin:

I think (not entirely sure) that the 16d10 comes from the Grave Cleric's doubling of the damage.

Edit: Shadowmonk'd...

[Biggstick]

And the "Nuclear Druid" exploitation is one of the exact reasons I don't allow UA at my table. Even if I were to allow UA, I wouldn't allow multiclassing of it.

On to the actual question though. I'm in agreement with others that using a Gith as your social skill monkey probably isn't the best idea if you're playing with a DM that makes racial choice important. Even if they don't know what you are, (and even in Waterdeep), you're likely to have a harder time getting that initial positive social interaction you're looking for. I'd change it to an Elf of some sort for Longbow proficiency, as that plus the Inquisitive's ability to generate Sneak Attack Advantage makes for some solid back-line striking power.

Why would you slow down Cleric progression for Paladin levels? For the ability to Divine Smite? Why not just go straight up Paladin or Cleric here? This multiclass doesn't really pair well. You'd be better off combining Cleric with Fighter or Paladin with a Charisma-based caster (Bardic Inspiration would be solid). IMO, just go with a straight up Cleric here, as your party will appreciate having a legitimate Cleric with full progression to fall back on. If you really want damage on the Cleric, go with a domain that adds damage to weapon strikes and grab GFB or BB. My recommendation would be Nature or Forge, as both are extremely tanky supports.

So the Ranger/Cleric combination is another one I'm concerned with. While I understand Goodberry/Life Cleric cheese, that's out of combat healing as you can only eat 1 berry per Action. That isn't going to help you stay healthy in combat, and you won't be able to stand up long to any serious enemy. Your saving throws will be either STR/DEX or WIS/CHA, which are normally solid sets of saving throws. If you're on the front line though, you'll need Constitution saving throws as well.

Good tank requirements:
Saving Throws: With the build as suggested, you'll only have 1/3 of the major saving throws. It'd be ideal to start with Cleric, as Absorb Elements will cover your failed Dexterity saving throws.
HP: The Ranger hit die plus Disciple of Life (Healing Word + Goodberry) means you actually have decent ways to help with your HP.
AC: 21 AC and Shield of Faith gives you a solid AC. It costs spell slots, but it's doable.
Damage Mitigation: Nothing for Bludgeoning, Piercing, or Slashing, but you do have mitigation for elemental damage types. This only comes from Absorb Elements, which requires a free hand and brings me to my next point.

The character will theoretically be SnB, but they won't have a free hand to perform the somatic components of Absorb Elements. How are you going to deal with this situation? Warcaster? This character already needs to spend a feat on Resilient Constitution at the least.

Another point I'd bring up which is one talked about after all the above things mentioned, this character doesn't have a way to really grab the attention of the bad guys. A Paladin has Divine Smite, a Barbarian has Reckless Attack, this character has...what? There isn't anything really encouraging the bad guys to attack this character.

My recommendation would be to mix Barbarian and Gloom Stalker Ranger. Three levels of Bear Barbarian, seven levels of Gloom Stalker, and you have a damage dealing tank with off healing capability, damage mitigation versus everything but psychic damage, and a free "taunt" with Reckless Attack. When you're not using Rages, you have spell slots to fall back on. Totem Barbarian and Ranger both blend together thematically pretty well, which is just the cherry on top for me.
The Abjuration Wizard and Sorlock will work quite well together. I'd agree with what another post said and have the Sorcerer pick up Counterspell/Subtle spell for the power that brings to the table.

Other then remarks made though, it looks like a very well thought out party. You'll probably have quite a bit of success in the new campaign!

[MidgetMarine]

The one point in the favour of Gith is that they won't be responsible for the direct social encounters, we were hoping to leverage quick-talking and bluffing onto the Sorlock and leave the investigation, deduction and Wis/Int Social rolls which helps shore up my (The Abjurer's) heavy focus on research skills and for the eventual need for a Perception/Investigation capable skill monkey once we hit Dungeon of the Mad Mage. Load Deception Persuasion on the Sorlock and allow Rogue to pick up primary stats in its two class-focused skills and some utility spells for free. I don't think racial choice will be too huge of a modifier, but agree there's other powerful choices on the table.

Paladin dip on Order Cleric is very specifically to abuse the Order Cleric's ability to refresh a lower level spell slot on Enchantment spells, on its own this is obviously a power battlefield control mechanism, but two levels of paladin early give him the ability not only walk around comfortably with high AC, good weapon and armor proficiency and the eventual ability at level 8 to not only refresh control spell after control spell, but opt between control spells and low level bonus action 'Smite' Spells and Divine Smites that come back upon your next enchantment spell

Per Ranger: We're looking at taking Resilient Con at a later level, but this build was the one where I think we had to compromise more than the others.
We decided it was pretty vital to have a Ranger, especially a Revised Ranger since Natural Explorer works in cities, and beyond the Life Cleric Drip, felt it was pretty important to get ASIs quickly to upgrade the abilities.
In terms of what aggro mechanism this has, early on it's definitely lacking but as it levels, the Monster Slayer features make it severely annoying to deal with for plenty of enemies, at which point the defensive focus of the build allows more staying power to keep getting the key interrupts off.

Per Abjurer + Sorlock, there's a small chance Abj dips 3 levels of Storm Sorcerer for Subtle Spell and Heightened Spell and the 10ft hover at will, but I'll likely just take 20 wizard levels.

[KorvinStarmast]

I am going to challenge your assumptions:

You have a six person party. You will accrue a power surge at Charlevel 5 if you don't MC any of the characters.
With six, you have all roles covered, with some to spare.
If you are going to optimize, I suggest that you do it with six single classed characters. your spell casters will be accessing 3rd, 4th, and 5th level spells sooner in your adventuring career.

The whole point of this team is synergy, so I'll suggest that you take six single classed characters and build the team such that inter character synergy is what you optimize. Your PC's getting their class features at the earliest level should aid and abet that.

By multiclassing, you are to a certain extent sub-optimizing by delaying class feature/spell level activation.

EDIT:
Oh, wait, I just read some of the back and forth a bit more carefully.
MC and UA together for an exploit.
NVM
Our wizard played a loremaster from levels 9-12. Then he decided he wanted to play something else. DM let him start at 11 with a Paladin.

[MidgetMarine]

EDIT:
Oh, wait, I just read some of the back and forth a bit more carefully.
MC and UA together for an exploit.
NVM
Our wizard played a loremaster from levels 9-12. Then he decided he wanted to play something else. DM let him start at 11 with a Paladin.

Yeah we've tried to take as few levels as possible to acommodate the syngergies we're trying to build around, but 1-20 may certainly be the case with the Rogue and Wizard

[bid]

No, 16d10 because the creature is vulnerable to to the attack.
Same reason why the missiles are dealing 2d4 +2 because that's essentially the calculation for doubling the damage.
Erm, 8d10 doubled. Because vulnerability doesn't change the number of dice rolled.

But I see where you were going, it does the equivalent of 2d4 + 16d10 + 2.

[MidgetMarine]

Yeah, the idea is that we'll use the Sorlock and the Abjurer to slip the massive damage numbers past Shields and Counterspells

[MidgetMarine]

New considerations are less levels of Warlock on the Sorlock, thinking 3 now. so Lock 3/Sorc 17.
Trying to think what synergies there are for the Inquisitive Rogue, though straight Rogue offers quick access to important features.

Ranger is about locked in now, as is Cleric though we're considering taking Paladin for up to 7 levels for the right subclass.