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View Full Version : Where is the deadly Kolbold page?



Carrion_Humanoid
2007-09-10, 06:37 PM
I know this may not belong here, but where is that web page with the story about the kolbolds of doom. someones Kolbolds? My friend is convinsed that kolbolds are utterly usless and I wanted to show him.

blackout
2007-09-10, 06:38 PM
Tucker's Kobolds.

Carrion_Humanoid
2007-09-10, 06:39 PM
Yes, Tuckers Kolbolds, where is this page that shows the Epic Retelling of his Kolbolds?

Solo
2007-09-10, 06:40 PM
Tell your friend to play against this guy:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=491801

Green Bean
2007-09-10, 06:40 PM
Here it is! (http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/) :smallbiggrin:

blackout
2007-09-10, 06:40 PM
Just google it, dude. :smalltongue:

Carrion_Humanoid
2007-09-10, 06:52 PM
Thank you!

Green Bean
2007-09-10, 06:54 PM
Thank you!

*bows*

Glad to be of service. :smallbiggrin:

ocato
2007-09-10, 07:02 PM
My DM tried his own version of Tucker's kobolds, but the fighter had a long spear and cleave :smallfrown: . They were shooting through the wall slits and he just pin-cushioned them through the slits. Then they threw heated oils down on us and Cleric with protection from elements sorta shrugged it off. Then he tried some other part with a tunnel full of spears and ropes where we had to chase them, but the ranger just shot the ever living snot out of them. It wasn't the best job of making a tucker's kobolds.

Drider
2007-09-10, 07:14 PM
My DM tried his own version of Tucker's kobolds, but the fighter had a long spear and cleave :smallfrown: . They were shooting through the wall slits and he just pin-cushioned them through the slits. Then they threw heated oils down on us and Cleric with protection from elements sorta shrugged it off. Then he tried some other part with a tunnel full of spears and ropes where we had to chase them, but the ranger just shot the ever living snot out of them. It wasn't the best job of making a tucker's kobolds.

making it so you have to chase them is'nt a good move, but i would'nt let someone with a spear medium(small is questionable)size or more put it in the wall slits either.

Jerthanis
2007-09-10, 07:27 PM
As humorous as the idea is to imagine, kobolds wipping up on level 10 PCs, there's literally no way any number of Kobolds can really challenge a group of adventurers who have access to resources and know what they're getting into. When that ceases to be the case, we're talking about DM fiat killing the players and not Kobolds, or anything, being played intelligently.

Forcing the players to consider non-standard practices like casting Reduce Person on everyone to be able to follow their attackers, or even causing them to drop a bunch of gold on Kobold Bane arrows is a good idea, saying "Haha, the 50 Kobolds shoot you with arrows, then step back behind cover, so you can't return fire" and springing unrealistically deadly traps every 5 feet is just annoying.

When players have no recourse but to sit there taking punishment, they won't have fun. If the players have to be creative to overcome their enemies, they will have fun. That goes the same for every encounter and enemy type, and not just Kobolds.

UglyPanda
2007-09-10, 07:30 PM
Tucker's Kobolds predate 3.0, everything was deadlier back then. Respect the kobolds.

Stabby
2007-09-10, 09:16 PM
Tell your friend to play against this guy:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=491801

Ah, good ole Pun Pun... a brilliant exercise in using mechanics to win at D&D.

Pun Pun should never show up. He is/was a mental exercise. He is beyond game unbalancing/breaking. But he is cool. No doubt.

Solo
2007-09-10, 10:18 PM
He hath disrespected the Kobold. NO MERCY TO THE HERETIC!

Chronos
2007-09-10, 10:23 PM
As humorous as the idea is to imagine, kobolds wipping up on level 10 PCs, there's literally no way any number of Kobolds can really challenge a group of adventurers who have access to resources and know what they're getting into. When that ceases to be the case, we're talking about DM fiat killing the players and not Kobolds, or anything, being played intelligently.What you say is true, if the players are playing intelligently. But what happened with Tucker's Kobolds is the players made one big mistake to get into a bad situation, and then they panicked and got themselves even further into the bad situation. You know that the dungeon is full of critters that like to strike from ambush, so you charge as far into their lair as you can, without even securing the way out? Well, then, you get locked in. That was the first mistake. That's the kind of thinking one expects from folks used to fighting big flamey demons, and the Tarrasque, and Grendel's mother, and it really should get the party into trouble.

Having made that mistake, and having realized that they had made a mistake, though, the party proceeded to panic. The door's locked? OK, unlock it. Pick the lock, if there's a thief in the party. Cast a Knock spell. Break it down, if nothing else. Then leave, rest up, and come up with a plan to take out those kobolds properly.

Sure, having secret passages that only the kobolds can use, not the players, would be unfair of the DM. But we don't know that the players couldn't use them, because they never tried. Nor did they try to seal up the murder holes, nor to carve their own passages from the outside (Stone Shape, etc.), nor to find something with which they could effectively attack the kobolds. They panicked, and they paid for it, and have nobody to blame for it but themselves.

tainsouvra
2007-09-10, 10:52 PM
As humorous as the idea is to imagine, kobolds wipping up on level 10 PCs, there's literally no way any number of Kobolds can really challenge a group of adventurers who have access to resources and know what they're getting into. When that ceases to be the case, we're talking about DM fiat killing the players and not Kobolds, or anything, being played intelligently. That is untrue. The Kobolds aren't intended to be a realistic direct-combat challenge in the first place, and the DM in question kept to that spirit. A Kobold in combat would, as you mention, be hardly a speedbump...a Kobold who designs and triggers a CR-appropriate trap is another matter entirely, and has nothing whatsoever to do with DM fiat.

Kobolds should be a challenge any time they are faced, because they will use any and every underhanded tactic to present that challenge, if they are being played true to their design. DM skill is in devising traps and tactics that keep them CR-appropriate, which means the higher the party gets in level, the more vicious the little things get.
Forcing the players to consider non-standard practices like casting Reduce Person on everyone to be able to follow their attackers, or even causing them to drop a bunch of gold on Kobold Bane arrows is a good idea, saying "Haha, the 50 Kobolds shoot you with arrows, then step back behind cover, so you can't return fire" and springing unrealistically deadly traps every 5 feet is just annoying. You may have missed it, but the Kobold has two main purposes:
To be dangerous, by proxy, any time it can prepare--and avoid presenting the players a target at any time it is possible.
To be really freaking annoying. Seriously, even without the traps, they're intelligent scaled Chihuahua. How can you not hate them? The tactics used in the 2nd-Edition game mentioned in Tucker's Kobolds is actually the correct way to play a Kobold tribe in the third edition, per the description in the Monster Manual:
They spend most of their time fortifying the land around their lairs with traps and warning devices (such as spiked pits, tripwires attached to crossbows, and other mechanical contraptions).
[...]
Whenever they can, kobolds set up ambushes near trapped areas. They aim to drive enemies into the traps, where other kobolds wait to pour flaming oil over them, shoot them, or drop poisonous vermin onto them. Kobolds who aren't trying to trick and exploit the PC's aren't kobolds, they're just fodder.
When players have no recourse but to sit there taking punishment, they won't have fun. If the players have to be creative to overcome their enemies, they will have fun. That goes the same for every encounter and enemy type, and not just Kobolds. Please note that the players in Tucker's Kobolds made multiple and massive tactical errors, and those directly led to their catastrophic losses. The players weren't defeated by DM fiat, but they were handily routed by FUD. There are several good tactical options a level 10 party could have used, but none were used, and it cost them dearly.

Falrin
2007-09-10, 11:10 PM
Kobolds are not the danger, it's the situation.

Kobolds
+ Lots of traps
+ No escape route
= Bad news for the players.

Wearing them down is the key word.

Superior numbers, Hit-n-running ambushes, Small-sized tunnels and Irritating, mobility limiting traps are the basics. Fall in a pit trap and get hit by a crossbow.
Walk around the bend and get stabbed by a spear. Ready for the next attack and chase the sniper. Get hit by his waiting buddies. Go to sleep. Get attacked. Get faked. Get attacked. A few fakes with invisible rogues attacking. Wake up. Repeat.

Massive Cave-ins, dead-end flooding, suffocating smoke, obscuring mist, poisonous gas, fast spreading fire are easy 1/4 CR kobold tools to challenge a higher LvL Party. Just keep in mind that you have lots of them and a few 'higher' LvL casters back them up with invisibility, fog cloud, silence, web or grease.

AslanCross
2007-09-11, 01:08 AM
What about kobold cavalry with levels in Scout riding Dire Weasels, skirmishing for a bit, then retreating like heck back into a cave where the PCs get pinned by a huge trap of fiery spears? Then while PCs are pinned by the trap, kobold crossbow infantry and sorcerers blast them into a quivering mass. Also, they should always be around a dragon. They're kin, after all.

(Races of the Dragon really made me respect kobolds a lot more.)

mostlyharmful
2007-09-11, 04:56 AM
most of these also apply to dwarves, gnomes and generally any tunnel using race that has time to prepare. You're wandering into their homes intent on killing them all and looting their corpses, why the heck would they not pull out all the stops and be as unco-operative as possible. A Party of level 10s might think it unsporting for them to not line up and charge that doesn't mean its a DM fiat or cheating or anything else not to have tem be as vicious as rapid scaley trapmonkies:smallbiggrin:

Solo
2007-09-11, 02:17 PM
Just curious, but I heard a rumor that Pun Pun can now be reached at level one.

I googled it, but did not find any evidence to suggest that it is true.

Can anyone confirm/disprove this rumor?

Sebastian
2007-09-11, 02:30 PM
Tucker's Kobolds predate 3.0, everything was deadlier back then. Respect the kobolds.

Yep, Tucker's kobolds don't works to weel iin 3.x edition, unless you use levelled kobolds that is kinda against the point IMHO.

Zim
2007-09-11, 02:44 PM
I'm gonna run a version of TK's in an upcoming module of Age of Worms. I'll be replacing almost the entire ecology of the dungeon in A Gathering of Winds with a kobold colony. What fun! :biggrin:

AKA_Bait
2007-09-11, 03:07 PM
Yep, Tucker's kobolds don't works to weel iin 3.x edition, unless you use levelled kobolds that is kinda against the point IMHO.

Oh I must very much disagree. As mentioned above, the kobolds aren't the main enemy, the environment and the traps they set up are. As such Tuckers Kobolds are very useful for knocking the group down a peg or two. Sometimes that needs to happen. I've played in games where the PC's get to level 10 -13 and decide that they are invincible and will never run from, or think too hard about, anything. Having the entire floor drop out below them in a room and kobolds start pouring boiling oil from the ceiling is a VERY good way to remind them that mentality is not a good idea.

Are the PC's if they think smart and use their resources well going to get iced by the kobolds? Nah. But the point isn't to kill them, just to be a challenge, like every other monster. If the PC's are foolish... yeah, they will die.

Green Bean
2007-09-11, 03:11 PM
Just curious, but I heard a rumor that Pun Pun can now be reached at level one.

I googled it, but did not find any evidence to suggest that it is true.

Can anyone confirm/disprove this rumor?

It's true, but it can only be pulled off in certain settings. I think it has something to do with a devil called a Pazuzu that will grant you wishes in exchange for alignment shifts, but I'm not too clear beyond that.

Arbitrarity
2007-09-11, 03:17 PM
Do a DC 25 knowledge check to know about demon Pazuzu (FC2), which you then summong by speaking his name three times. He has wish 1/day as an Sp ability, and will grant a wish (willingly and most of the time, according to description.) in exchange for shifting alignment 1 step towards CE (chaotic first, then evil). Note, if you are already CE, he punishes you in some manner.

Wish + Candle of invocation = Efreeti. 3 wishes is enough.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-09-11, 03:47 PM
Yeah, but Pazuzu's kinda annoying, and he's currently hiding out possessing the body of a stereotyped Jewish fry-cook, so he may have to take the bus to get there and it could take a while.

kemmotar
2007-09-11, 10:14 PM
yes but the problem is what the mechanics will be for the attacking kobolds? I mean imagine 50 kobolds shooting their crossbows simultaneously...more like a reflex save than an AC matter...Also with low level kobold meleers are you just gonna roll and roll for an endless amount of kobolds till you roll nat 20?sure the traps might convince the PCs to do what the DM intended them to...but the barbarian might just charge the wall breaking into the tunnel and slaughtering the kobolds while the invisible rogue goes around murdering the rest of them...the invisible sorcerer stands at the edge of a small tunnel and fries 50 kobolds with a lightning bolt...

Maybe you can catch the party in your traps but half of them wouldnt care...maybe the arcane casters but then again...they dont need to move do they?I dont know what mechanics tucker used for his kobolds but i doubt that you can adapt it to 3.5e...unless you give the attackers a +4 flanking for every pair of kobolds standing around the defender(this 8 kobolds, +4x4=+16 to AR...)you might hit something with something less than a natural 20...

About enemy kobold sorcerers...The PCs would probably have base saves higher than the sorcerer's spell DC so that would just look like cleave fodder...

In short a party of non-panicking PCs would make short work of such a colony...especially above 10th level...much less 20 as it was suggested...maybe arming the whole colony with a crossbow and rolling indefinitely until you get natural 20-20-20 will work though :smalltongue:

tainsouvra
2007-09-11, 10:35 PM
sure the traps might convince the PCs to do what the DM intended them to...but the barbarian might just charge the wall breaking into the tunnel and slaughtering the kobolds while the invisible rogue goes around murdering the rest of them...the invisible sorcerer stands at the edge of a small tunnel and fries 50 kobolds with a lightning bolt... If the kobolds didn't build traps for that contingency, they weren't Tucker's Kobolds, in fact it's questionable they were even being played as the Monster Manual instructs.
I dont know what mechanics tucker used for his kobolds but i doubt that you can adapt it to 3.5e. It's not about mechanics, it's about tactics. The ideal of the trapmaster transcends the gaming system being used, and that is what the kobold is supposed to be all about.
About enemy kobold sorcerers...The PCs would probably have base saves higher than the sorcerer's spell DC so that would just look like cleave fodder... Only if the DM has no idea what CR means :smalltongue:
In short a party of non-panicking PCs would make short work of such a colony...especially above 10th level...much less 20 as it was suggested...maybe arming the whole colony with a crossbow and rolling indefinitely until you get natural 20-20-20 will work though :smalltongue: That is true if, and only if, the DM is not playing the kobolds per their description. If they don't flee the moment the odds seem against them, they're not kobolds, they're fodder. If they don't use every underhanded trick the DM can come up with and stay within the proper CR, they're not kobolds, they're fodder.

Fodder is easy to kill. Kobolds are all about using dirty tricks and exploiting adventurers' behavior. If it's not cowardly, underhanded, and annoying as heck, it's not a kobold doing it.

kemmotar
2007-09-12, 04:29 AM
So simply put Tucker's Kobolds were not lower CR...in fact it was an insane amount of CR appropriate kobolds using guerilla tactics:smallbiggrin:

What i meant about mechanics is what are you gonna do about the kobold attacks? Sure you can roll for 30 bolts, 10 arrows, 5 spears, 10 thrown axes etc etc etc...but that will take far too long...

The point though with the traps will be that sure the kobolds made them to guide the pcs into the next trap...but i doubt that would stop the rogue or monk from goin through the trap completely uninjured and procceed to murder a hall full of kobolds...some will run away others will fall...but PCs have the tendency to not do what the DM wants them to...sometimes not out of creativity...just out of spite!!I know I do it sometimes:smalltongue:

Merlin the Tuna
2007-09-12, 04:46 AM
If the kobolds didn't build traps for that contingency, they weren't Tucker's Kobolds, in fact it's questionable they were even being played as the Monster Manual instructs.Even from the monster side of things, kobolds aren't going to cut it in 3.X. Their mental scores are Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8, so while willing to fight dirty, their advantage is terrain familiarity more than brilliance. Combine this with the fact that their Craft: Trapmaking modifier is a stunning +2 and Craft: Trapmaking DCs start at 20, typically taking many, many weeks to complete anyway... Even if you assume a hefty chunk of aid-anothers, you pretty much need a "hero" kobold with a bunch of class levels and trap-centric abilities to make any traps of note in any reasonable amount of time.

Naturally, this likely wasn't the case in 2E -- though I expect the ability scores were somewhat similar, rules for trapmaking were likely about as complicated as "They're just there." (Complete wild guess, but it's about par for the course for 2E.) And yes, there were definitely problems on the party's end, as well. It's interesting to note how the metagame would change by shifting the group to 3E, though. I imagine there would be fewer blasty spells in the mage's repertoire simply because of the power shift, making him a bit more conducive to cramped quarters. And that spells don't have quite as many bizarre qualifiers likely would help, too -- though the article specifically mentions being too cramped for Fireball, I wouldn't doubt that Lightning Bolt was at hand as well and wasn't a good option because of the ricochet rules.

dr.cello
2007-09-12, 05:41 AM
While the generic kobold warrior's certainly don't make for an expert at trapmaking, do keep in mind: they're an entire species of trapbuilders. Their +2 bonus is a racial bonus--so any old kobold can help out even a level one expert (who has a +6 in craft: trapmaking). If you allow two of them to help, that kobold can just take ten on most traps (spiked pits, crossbows with tripwires, and so on).

Most groups of kobolds will feature a decent number of higher level characters, as well, for the really tricky traps, but a trap with a +14 base attack bonus doesn't even add to the CR. It could do (I think) 21 points of average damage and still be only a CR 3, and as such only require a DC 20 check to make. So, with only two generic warriors and a single expert, you can make a pretty nasty trap in a week without any help.

It might be relatively easy to detect, but if I'm a party of kobolds, I'll probably be harassing the PCs. So they have the choice--either take a lot of time, search for all of my traps, and get themselves pelted with little javelins and crossbow bolts in the meanwhile, or they can hurry after me and risk whatever traps I might have set up.

And for the kobold on the go, there's the combat trapsmith prestige class--it's the sort of class I can easily imagine a kobold leader to have.

I do agree that the RAW make trapfinding (and most crafting, really) a little bit slow, but that's something I would probably houserule to a bit shorter of a time. Especially if I'm just designing traps as a DM, not dealing with PCs making traps. If it makes the game more fun, interesting, challenging, etc., it's better than a rule which makes the game ridiculous, silly, excessively easy, boring, etc.

lord_khaine
2007-09-12, 05:57 AM
well the problems then mainly start when the pc gets smart enough to just shoot any fleing kobold in the back, instead of trying to chase it down.

really if the party just act a bit smart and move forward slowly while looking for traps, and respond to ranget attacks with better ranget attacks then kobolds wont be a bit threat.

dr.cello
2007-09-12, 07:09 AM
Plenty of ways to force the PCs to follow. Give the kobolds cover or concealment (shot on the run comes to mind), or, in other words, make them use the terrain to their advantage. If the PCs don't have darkvision and it's either a cave, or night-time, there's another one.

Kobolds like trickery and overwhelming odds. If you're DMing properly, it shouldn't be a simple matter of 'shoot them back,' because the kobolds will try to avoid situations where they might lose.

mostlyharmful
2007-09-12, 07:19 AM
Also bear in mind the relative rates of fire of a party of four PCs and an entire TRIBE of kobolds, lets say a fairly small one of two hundred, with only 120 being able to use slings and crossbows. Even if they have to roll a natural 20 to hit they're still pelting your group with enough ranged attacks that you can't just ignore it and keep whittling down their numbers. If you stay mobile they can't get all their combatents into position, if you stay still you may as well paint big bullseyes on each others faces

Merlin the Tuna
2007-09-12, 08:30 AM
Most groups of kobolds will feature a decent number of higher level characters, as well, for the really tricky traps, but a trap with a +14 base attack bonus doesn't even add to the CR. It could do (I think) 21 points of average damage and still be only a CR 3, and as such only require a DC 20 check to make. So, with only two generic warriors and a single expert, you can make a pretty nasty trap in a week without any help.We'll use CR 3 as the benchmark. Going with straight out-of-the-box traps, that gives us the Hail of Needles, Attack +20, Damage 2d4 (avg 5), Craft DC 20, price 5400 gp.

If we assume that they're nailing that 20 on their craft checks every week, that's 20*20=400 sp per week, or 40 gp per week. It will take them 135 weeks to finish making the trap, or about 2.75 years. For a CR 3 trap. If you've got a super expert or a lot of help and can hit a 30 consistently, you can voluntarily raise the DC to 30, giving you 30*30=900 sp = 90 gp of progress per week, in which case you'll finish in a mere 60 weeks, or about 14 months. Even if we kick it up to 40 by 40 with the skill check (which would be bordering on epic if it were a single person responsible), it still takes about 25 days to knock the thing out, assuming 8 hours of work per day.

Yeah, crafting rules are a bit wonky.

Duke of URL
2007-09-12, 09:06 AM
Seriously, though, a well-prepared party and a level set of heads should be able to take on this type of challenge.

A 10th level mage has access to spells like Protection From Arrows and Stoneskin (DR 10 pretty much kills any damage from crossbows), Hypnotism/Hypnotic Pattern/Sleep/Deep Slumber (coup d'grace), Magic Missile (designate 5 targets at a time, no chance of miss or save), Black Tentacles, various divination spells to locate traps/doors, Knock to unlock them, Web (mix with fire -- broiled kobold!), Confusion (get them to attack each other), Summon Swarm (summon them onto the "murder hole" side of the ambush), Slow (can't effectively run away), Dimension Door (you and three buddies cut them off at the pass), Arcane Eye/Prying Eyes (scouting), Stone to Mud/Mud to Stone/Stone Shape (block "murder holes", seal tunnels), Passwall (bypass obstacles), Cloudkill ('nuff said), Animate Dead (kobolds.. meet zombie kobolds).

I don't even want to bother with the same exercise for a Cleric.

A 10th-level Warlock would be able to drop three at a time, all day long, with Eldritch Chain, animate their corpses without components, and turn their own numbers against them. Or several of the other mage tricks above.

Fighter-types -- your job is to protect the casters and clean up the mess. Scouts... scout.

AKA_Bait
2007-09-12, 09:27 AM
Seriously, though, a well-prepared party and a level set of heads should be able to take on this type of challenge.

A 10th level mage has access to spells like Protection From Arrows and Stoneskin (DR 10 pretty much kills any damage from crossbows), Hypnotism/Hypnotic Pattern/Sleep/Deep Slumber (coup d'grace), Magic Missile (designate 5 targets at a time, no chance of miss or save), Black Tentacles, various divination spells to locate traps/doors, Knock to unlock them, Web (mix with fire -- broiled kobold!), Confusion (get them to attack each other), Summon Swarm (summon them onto the "murder hole" side of the ambush), Slow (can't effectively run away), Dimension Door (you and three buddies cut them off at the pass), Arcane Eye/Prying Eyes (scouting), Stone to Mud/Mud to Stone/Stone Shape (block "murder holes", seal tunnels), Passwall (bypass obstacles), Cloudkill ('nuff said), Animate Dead (kobolds.. meet zombie kobolds).

I don't even want to bother with the same exercise for a Cleric.

A 10th-level Warlock would be able to drop three at a time, all day long, with Eldritch Chain, animate their corpses without components, and turn their own numbers against them. Or several of the other mage tricks above.

Fighter-types -- your job is to protect the casters and clean up the mess. Scouts... scout.

Obviously, a well prepared party that works as a team and uses their resources to the fullest ought to overcome a Tuckers Kobolds situation, just like the ought to overcome any other CR appropriate challenge. That the party can win doesn't mean the Kobolds aren't a threat.

Also, the wizard and the cleric getting to cast all those spells assumes they know they are walking into a kobold nest to begin with. If they are trying to cast them on the fly, they had better have darn good concentration checks to overcome getting pelted with the hail of arrows every round.

Finally, if the kobolds see their traps aren't working they will do one of two things: run like crazy setting off as many behind them as they get the heck out of dodge or surrender to the PC's, who are clearly more powerful than they are, and ask for their protection from the big bad green dragon (or whatever) that they previously worked for. They would then lead the PC's into more traps, or work with them, depending on which seems to work best for the tribe at the time. Self preservation is big in the Kobold ethos.



We'll use CR 3 as the benchmark. Going with straight out-of-the-box traps, that gives us the Hail of Needles, Attack +20, Damage 2d4 (avg 5), Craft DC 20, price 5400 gp.

If we assume that they're nailing that 20 on their craft checks every week, that's 20*20=400 sp per week, or 40 gp per week. It will take them 135 weeks to finish making the trap, or about 2.75 years. For a CR 3 trap. If you've got a super expert or a lot of help and can hit a 30 consistently, you can voluntarily raise the DC to 30, giving you 30*30=900 sp = 90 gp of progress per week, in which case you'll finish in a mere 60 weeks, or about 14 months. Even if we kick it up to 40 by 40 with the skill check (which would be bordering on epic if it were a single person responsible), it still takes about 25 days to knock the thing out, assuming 8 hours of work per day.

Yeah, crafting rules are a bit wonky.

The crafting rules are a bit wonky, but regarding the set up of a Tuckers Kobolds kind of place pretty much irrelevant. The kobolds have been there skulking around for a long time, years, before the PC's ever arrived most likely.

Duke of URL
2007-09-12, 09:35 AM
Also, the wizard and the cleric getting to cast all those spells assumes they know they are walking into a kobold nest to begin with. If they are trying to cast them on the fly, they had better have darn good concentration checks to overcome getting pelted with the hail of arrows every round.

The article on the kobolds specifically mentions the party leader had experienced them before, so yes, I would assume they would have the ability to prepare. Otherwise, get the h*** out of dodge and prepare for another visit.

Concentration checks don't get triggered if there's no damage taken (see Stoneskin and/or Protection From Arrows).

warty goblin
2007-09-12, 01:48 PM
The article on the kobolds specifically mentions the party leader had experienced them before, so yes, I would assume they would have the ability to prepare. Otherwise, get the h*** out of dodge and prepare for another visit.

Concentration checks don't get triggered if there's no damage taken (see Stoneskin and/or Protection From Arrows).

But remember that in the context of Tucker's Kobolds, the PCs weren't just going to go fight the kobolds, they actually were trying to simply get through the kobolds and fight the monsters below them. In this case, having the casters prepare only anti-kobold spells would be fairly nonsensical, because then they'd get hammered by the big flaming demons underneath the kobolds.

Yes, they could make a project of clearing the kobolds out of the caves, but if getting through them is a nightmare, imagine trying to actually fight them out of their bolt holes and fortified positions- it would pretty clearly take a while. A while not spent fighting the big flaming demons.

Duke of URL
2007-09-12, 02:09 PM
But remember that in the context of Tucker's Kobolds, the PCs weren't just going to go fight the kobolds, they actually were trying to simply get through the kobolds and fight the monsters below them. In this case, having the casters prepare only anti-kobold spells would be fairly nonsensical, because then they'd get hammered by the big flaming demons underneath the kobolds.

Yes, they could make a project of clearing the kobolds out of the caves, but if getting through them is a nightmare, imagine trying to actually fight them out of their bolt holes and fortified positions- it would pretty clearly take a while. A while not spent fighting the big flaming demons.

And it worked out real well for them, didn't it? :smallcool:

The kobolds were an immediate threat and should have been dealt with first -- an intelligent enemy would eventually surrender rather than be slaughtered against overwhelming opposition. After that, rest/regroup, and prepare for the other challenges.

The challenge posed by the DM was to find some way of dealing with the kobolds -- the party clearly chose poorly by underestimating the challenge.

AKA_Bait
2007-09-12, 02:15 PM
The challenge posed by the DM was to find some way of dealing with the kobolds -- the party clearly chose poorly by underestimating the challenge.

And that is why Tuckers Kobolds are awesome and can work in a 3e context. A level appropriate encounter very well ought to go:

Fantastic decisions: no sweat.
Ok decisions: a little rough.
Poor decisions: People die.

Randalor
2007-09-12, 02:32 PM
Is it wrong that I want to worship Tucker's Kobolds now? Seriously, thoses guys seem nasty and evil, moreso than the... well... giant evil flaming demons that are evil incarnate.

AKA_Bait
2007-09-12, 02:35 PM
Is it wrong that I want to worship Tucker's Kobolds now? Seriously, thoses guys seem nasty and evil, moreso than the... well... giant evil flaming demons that are evil incarnate.

Nope. There's an altar round back. Feel free to roast a pack animal to their glory.

tainsouvra
2007-09-12, 04:16 PM
The challenge posed by the DM was to find some way of dealing with the kobolds -- the party clearly chose poorly by underestimating the challenge. Exactly. Fighting kobolds, regardless of the party's level, is a challenge that needs to be tackled appropriately. If it's not a challenge, the DM isn't using kobolds as intended, because they're supposed to be devious little bastards. If the DM is using kobolds as intended, but the party thinks "it's just a bunch of kobolds", someone's gonna get taught a valuable lesson in underhanded tactics. :smallbiggrin:

---


Even from the monster side of things, kobolds aren't going to cut it in 3.X. Their mental scores are Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8, so while willing to fight dirty, their advantage is terrain familiarity more than brilliance. I believe you're misunderstanding what those scores mean. Those are racial averages--an an average intelligence of 10 means they have the same general range of intellect as the human race. The typical kobold is no smarter--and no dumber--than your typical human. Their most intelligent, likewise, are no smarter--and no dumber--than the most intelligent humans alive. Given the structure of their society, it is completely reasonable to expect ridiculously well-planned traps.
Combine this with the fact that their Craft: Trapmaking modifier is a stunning +2 and Craft: Trapmaking DCs start at 20, typically taking many, many weeks to complete anyway... Even if you assume a hefty chunk of aid-anothers, you pretty much need a "hero" kobold with a bunch of class levels and trap-centric abilities to make any traps of note in any reasonable amount of time. You are forgetting two major details. Accomplished trapmakers are celebrities in kobold society. A "hero" kobold with a bunch of related class levels and trap-centric abilities is eminently appropriate, in fact it would be a major suspension of disbelief to have any sizable tribe that didn't have one. Making traps is one of the biggest occupations and hobbies in kobold society. The fact that a trap would take weeks to make is meaningless, as the tribe will readily spend years perfecting their traps, perhaps decades if they get the chance. Kobolds often dedicate their entire lives to coming up with the most devious traps possible, kobolds who become expert trapmakers are revered in their society, and cooperating to make traps is a staple of their social interaction.

Imagine if the entire population of your hometown cooperatively spent all of its free time building traps of increasing lethality, and if every kid dreamed of growing up to be a master trapsmith. Imagine the horrors they could come up with, given years, decades, or even lifetimes of concentrated effort. That is what walking into a kobold tribe's tunnels is supposed to be.

GoC
2007-09-24, 03:22 PM
Protection from arrows and energy+neat little spell in Spell Compedium that searches everything in 30 ft=immunity to kobolds:smallbiggrin:

XiaoTie
2007-09-25, 12:15 PM
I used to like kobolds mostly because of Deekin from NWN. But now a whoooooole 'nother level of liking kobolds unfolds before me.

*walks to the altar and roasts a pack animal to their glory*

Chaos Bringer
2007-09-25, 12:41 PM
Whereas i agree completely that a well organized, level headed group could probably have handled TK's with out too much trouble, it seemed to me that the whole tactic was to keep them off balance and scare the piss out of them so bad that they fouled up in every way possible. You gotta play Indiana Jones in these Kobold Temples of DOOM!! Not the stupid blond chick that follows him around. Personally, im DMing a campaign here soon, and in a quest description i'm going to send the PCs after Kobolds that "Have been left alone for a very long time, so watch out for traps". Its going to be a lot like TK's and pure awesome. My players are pretty smart, but arrows and spears flying all over the place, along with tripping traps every 10 feet should really mess em up.