Rules for making tech?

[weckar]

Is there any 1st party source that provides rules or guidelines for making non-magical tech and gadgets?
Refluffing, unless somehow RAW, is not an option.

[liquidformat]

the closest would be dmg giving gun stats, this is a high fantasy game after all...

[unseenmage]

Pathfinder has this in its nation of Numeria.

The Technology Guide tells us that making tech requires special feats (which dont count as item creation feats), special laboratories (which can only be found not built or bought), and that its priced just like magic items.

There are a very few Ethergaunt tech items statted out.

Faerun's nation of Lantan has tech rules somewhere. But IIRC they're sparse.

[Vizzerdrix]

Faerun's nation of Lantan has tech rules somewhere. But IIRC they're sparse.

Lantan artificer. Magic of faerun. I have yet seen it optomized though, and the weight of the items os very prohibitave.

[unseenmage]

Oh yeah! There's also Devices in Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood. Third party and you'd have to find a way to safely get the info about them out of the Demiplane of Dread. Oh, and they are also prohibitively heavy.

[noob]

In pathfinder there is also mi go tech.
You just need to become a mi go somehow.
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/plants/mi-go/

[The Viscount]

Lantan artificer. Magic of faerun. I have yet seen it optomized though, and the weight of the items os very prohibitave.

For clarification, in the book the class is listed as Gnome Artificer.

[noob]

Did someone ever try to make a mi go team and then spam all the feats to reduce item creation costs and spam items that are equivalents of ninth level spells while having a team of cr 6 adventurers?

[Vizzerdrix]

For clarification, in the book the class is listed as Gnome Artificer.

True, but every time I call it that, everyone thinks Im talking about the base class from Eberron and I grew tired of that long ago.

[Buufreak]

Equally third party, Puresteam and Westbound are books for pathfinder using the assumption that the earth map had magic and fantasy races, and has a heavy steampunk feel. Effectively, it's magic items with a T in superscript, but it's something.

[ShurikVch]

Since the 3rd-party stuff was mentioned - how about the tech from Warcraft the Role Playing Game?
It have Craft (technological device) skill, and bunch of feats which are helping with such crafting

[DrBloodbathMC]

I just went through this kinda in an e6 game. When I had an idea I wanted to design, my DM had me make several craft engineering checks depending on how complicated it was, then another check to actually put it together.

[Fizban]

The Gnome Artificer is pretty notable for essentially basing of the standard magic item formulas, just with a specific list of allowed "spells." Using the class sets a precedent that technology can produce comparable results to magic, at least in certain areas. Additionally, their devices have three advantages over wands, one minor and one major. The first is that their devices can include multiple effects immediately, rather than waiting for 12th level and imposing a 8th caster level minimum like staves (though scepters don't have this problem). The second, and much more important, is that Gnome Artificers can recharge (technically "rebuild") their devices at half cost. The third, is that they can reduce the cost of their devices by making them with fewer charges to begin with, as low as 5 charges.

This means that while traditional magic is stuck with wands at 15gp base modifier which require a spellcaster and a minimum of 50 charges, or scrolls with 1 charge but even more training and a 25gp base, or potions with a 50gp base and 3rd level cap, the Gnome Artificer makes devices with an effective per charge modifier of only 10gp, in exchange for some overhead- and the overhead from the initial building of the device can be reduced by making it smaller to begin with. A 1st level cl 1 device with 5 charges costs 100gp to make, and recharges for 50gp. The fact that they aren't magic seems pretty pitiful, until on considers the viewpoint of massed NPC city defense. While not all existential threats have spell resistance, some do, and if you're stockpiling "magic" for the city guard you want stuff you know is going to work.

(The cost to create may be a little fuzzy: the example seems to think "base price" refers to creation cost since it says of a 2nd level item "creating this device. . . 6,000gp," but the DMG uses market price and cost to create. The text before that says the time spent is equivalent to that of a magic item, 1 day per 1,000gp of the base price, which implies that base price should be read as market price, and thus the cost to create is half of the 1,000gp multiplier on the table, the same as creating a wand is half the 750gp modifier. The Salvage ability mixes use of base price and market price, which should be equivalent- and if they are this means Salvage actually lets you get the same amount of money back out of an item as you paid to craft it, letting you essentially reconfigure your stuff at no loss. If the DM chooses to follow the example [thus making these effectively 2,000gp multiplier charged items that are crafted in half the time], well it is entirely possible the intent was for these to be double the cost of use-activated charged, which would be 1,000*2. And that price is simply untenable, so we'd throw it out anyway.)

There are problems with the thing of course. The list of effects is short and missing several spells from its own book that seem like obvious inclusions, left out for no explained reason. Expanding the list while remaining faithful to the limitations is a bit tricky. The example of a bracer which produces Bull's Strength completely ignores the fact that there are no personal-only restrictions on the spell effects, so your "bracer" can give someone else Bull's Strength just fine- which means all the buffs need to be fluffed as alchemical injections, not exoskeletons. A device that's out of charges needs to be rebuild by another Gnome Artificer specifically, no fuel or ammo shipments that normals can use. And of course, it's a specific PrC you can't enter until 5th, making it much harder to justify widespread use than 1st-3rd level magic items, such as scrolls, potions, and even wondrous items. And as a 10 level PrC, if you do take it to the end and the game goes past 15th, your devices just stop what scaling they did have after finishing the PrC.

A bigger problem to most people will be the fact that the Eberron Artificer. . . well if we're being honest it's just OP. They get handed everything on a silver platter, and then everything else on a golden platter. For a DM that allows Eberron Artificers as nothing special, the Gnome Artificer is ridiculously underpowered by comparison. Eberron's guys get literally all the spells, a spell progression with unique and powerful effects, that can be converted into free metamagic and charges, and even more at-cost metamagic, and access to a bunch of wand feats and PrCs if they want to specialize, basically the only thing they don't get is free items themselves (which the Gnome Artificer actually does get). This can be fixed with a little homebrew tweaking just like the rest, but when people go asking for 1st party material they typically don't want to have any 'brew of any kind.

You might be thinking since I've gone over all of that, doesn't that mean I already did the work? I did, here's my expansion:


Gnomish Artificer (Magic of Faerun)

The Gnomish Artificer has a couple of distinct advantages that, while they may not outweigh the restrictions for some, are still advantages. The main problem is simply that there have since been abilities and classes printed which make people better at using wands which the Gnomish Artificer cannot duplicate, espeically not when it's already its own prestige class. Tweaking the class to add these abilities however, is quite simple. Expanding the device powers list is a little tricky -there are a few spells from MoF itself missing for no reason I can tell, but it's a very tightly themed list to work from.

Prerequisites: Increase Craft: Alchemy requirement to 8 ranks, in order to reflect the number of touch range buffs that the class does not mechanically limit to the user of the device, as well as an increase in cold and fire effects. Knowledge (Archictecture and Engineering) became a single skill which reduces the overall skill cost by 4, so the net cost is about the same.

Class Features

Gnome Artificer Device Powers: Access to new levels of device powers is the same as normal (at level*2-1), but add 5th level power availability at 9th and remove the previous powers known progression. The artificer instead starts with six 0th level and two 1st level device powers known of their choice, gaining two free device powers of a level they are able to use at each new artificer level. An artificer can obtain more device powers from the list by spending extra time and money to design them, which costs as much as a scroll of the equivalent spell level and takes as long as crafting a normal 50 charge version of the device would take. Alternatively they can learn device powers from other artificers, if they can be persuaded to give up their secrets.

Device Construction: Add "handheld" to the list of available item slots (basic devices still require two slots).

Device Mastery: While a Gnomish Artificer's devices will function for anyone, the artificer knows how to get the most out of them. Add +1 caster level and +1 DC to devices they activate for each odd level (max +5), starting at 1st.

Device Tuning: By adjusting flow rates, dosages, firing speeds, capacitor loads, and so on and so forth, an artificer can make a device more powerful at the cost of efficiency (in the form of charges). A device can be set to double its effect duration by increasing the cost to two charges, increase its variable effects by 50% for three charges, or maximize variables for four charges (only one option can be in effect at a time). Modifying a device in this way takes a full minute and can only be undone by another gnomish artificer re-tuning the device. If a tuned device doesn't have enough charges remaining to pay its cost, the activation fails and all remaining charges are wasted.

Shadow Power (Su): Before learning to create devices that can fully produce quasi-magical effects, the Gnomish Artificer first learns how to bolster their devices with shadowstuff in general. This ability can be used in one of two ways: it can generate 5 temporary charges worth of ammunition which last for up to 1 hour per artificer level, or cause every activation of the device for the next minute to to be doubled by adding a shadow copy of the effect. Shadow Power can be triggered instantly while activating a device, and being supernatural it does not function in areas of antimagic. This ability can be used 1/day at 1st level, with additional uses at 4th, 7th, and 10th.

Eternal Artifice: A gnomish artificer of 10th level has mastered their craft. From now on they can create devies with effective caster levels up to their hit dice or character level rather than their class level, though they must still pay all normal costs to do so.
Device Power List, (updated) PHB+ (updated) MoF
0th
Acid Splash
Detect Poison
Electric Jolt
Launch Bolt
Launch Item
Light
Ray of Frost
Sonic Snap

1st
Burning Hands
Detect Secret Doors*
Detect Undead
Corrosive Grasp
Endure Elements
Expeditious Retreat
Grease
Ice Dagger*
Low-Light Vision
Nerveskitter
Obscuring Mist
Sonic Blast
Shocking Grasp

2nd
Acid Arrow
Battering Ram
Bull's Strength
Cat's Grace
Combust*
Darkvision
Flame Dagger
Fog Cloud
Glitterdust
Gust of Wind
Malevolent Miasma*
Scorch*
Scorching Ray*
See Invisibility
Shatter
Spider Climb
Snowball Swarm*
Wings of the Sea

3rd
Acid Breath*
Fly^
Haste^
Lightning Bolt
Shatterfloor
Sleet Storm^
Stinking Cloud
Water Breathing

4th
Blight*
Ice Storm^
Quench
Rusting Grasp
Shout
Solid Fog
Wall of Fire^
Wall of Ice^

5th
Cloudkill*
Firebrand*
Overland Flight*^
Sonic Rumble*
Wall of Force*^

*additional spell
^requires Shadow Effect class feature
Cut from the list: Mage Hand- unless this is star trek, that's magical dude.

Device Power List (additional SpC)
0th
Stick

1st
Blades of Fire
Deep Breath
Lesser Orb of Energy
Ray of Flame
Swift Expeditious Retreat

2nd
Cloud of Bewilderment
Burning Sword
Inky Cloud
Ray of Ice
Splinterbolt
Swift Flight^

3rd
Air Breathing
Bands of Steel
Deeper Darkvision
Great Thunderclap
Hailstones
Nauseating Breath
Resonating Bolt
Sound Lance
Tremorsense
Wall of Light^

4th
Arc of Lightning^
Blistering Radiance^
Explosive Cascade^
Flight of the Dragon
Orb of Energy

5th
Cacophonic Burst
Cyclonic Blast
Earth Reaver^
Lucent Lance
Moonbow
Ray of Light
Shroud of Flame^
Viscid Glob


Device Power List (other)
0th

1st
Glaze Lock (Frost)
Kelgore's Firebolt (PHB2)
Jet of Steam (CM)
Resinous Tar (CM)

2nd
Electric Vengeance (PHB2)
Ice Darts (Frost)
Incendiary Slime (CM)
Seeking Ray (PHB2)
Sun Bolt (Shining South)

3rd
Caustic Smoke (CM)

4th
Lightning Fog^ (Shining South)
Slumber Arrows (CM)

5th
Acid Rain^ (Heroes of Battle)
Boreal Wind (Frost)
Greater Electric Vengeance (PHB2)


Aside from that, there's also the vehicles in Arms and Equipment Guide to consider. While the ornithopter, zeppelin, and dirigible make mention of "magically animated" components, they don't actually use magic item creation rules or require magic to craft. Meanwhile the gnome submersible is apparently just a completely mundane gnome powered submarine. Basically they say fit to write whatever they wanted without tech rules to limit them, which is generally the better option.


And I suppose if we want to talk 3rd parties: from what I've heard the Ravenloft one was basically just pick a spell and poof it's tech now.

The Warcraft RPG is basically a set of abusable guidelines that their own tech items don't follow, with the 2nd ed WoW RPG having more detail in the guidelines. . . that still don't seem to be followed, at least not when I attempted to reverse engineer a couple items (with the 2nd ed items getting even wackier of course). The 2nd ed also seemed to have realized that the existing magic item systems where both simple and exponentially expensive for a reason, and started throwing a bunch of other tech systems into the mix- which were either crap or massively abusable depending on the particular device. Their steam armor was pretty solid though, shame it's all warcraft metals so it's hard to backport. The books are real expensive to pick up for just a couple usable bits.

Dragonmech is basically all about the mechs, with a crudely simple but open ended tech system that exists to justify them. . . without the mechs actually using their mechanics at all. I heard there were a bunch of updates in the second book and more errata/rulings on their forums, but it's still a system that ties the amount of active tech to the number and levels of people in the tech class. I did like how bold they were in the tech system though: it had the kind of "this thing just increases the die size of whatever you attach it to" and "this increases the speed of whatever you attach it to" or "this just automates the thing" that really embodies the "tech+fantasy=better" feeling that seems to be the driving force behind things most of the time. Not a hint of realism because that's not what you're there for, just find the cheesiest combination of parts and items you can exactly as intended- the problem was not enough text or things to attach them to.

Sorcery and Steam has my favorite low-tech firearms rules hands-down out of any book: literally everything else (DMG, Warcraft, Pathfinder Iron Kingdoms, all of them) is garbage. Their cannons on the other hand are a little strong, but it's also really, really hard trying to figure out exactly how cannons should work (I've done quite some hours of net research on it by now), and to be fair, since they're using civil war era guns they ought to have civil war era cannons. There's also vehicles and steam armor, but no rules for other stuff, just a few ostensibly steam powered oddities.

[mabriss lethe]

You can kludge together something passable out of the mechanical trap rules in the dmg. There's a nice grey area in the CR calculation table labelled "alchemical device" and it modifies the CR by the level of spell mimicked. It's a useful way to make a tech based toy and figure out pricing for it.

[Fizban]

Speaking of traps, before I went off on Gnome Artificer I was going to mention: booby traps in DMG 2, and the Trapsmith and Combat Trapsmith in Dungeonscape and Complete Scoundrel are some "tech" precedents as well.

[Firest Kathon]

Pathfinder has this in its nation of Numeria.

The Technology Guide tells us that making tech requires special feats (which dont count as item creation feats), special laboratories (which can only be found not built or bought), and that its priced just like magic items.

The rules for Pathfinder technology are available on the D20 PF SRD Page (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/technological-equipment/). It should port quite well over to 3.5.

[Calthropstu]

Obviously if you want to make a flying machine, you need to use knowledge(planes).

[Malphegor]

One of the web archives for 3.5 has a construct you can make with Craft Construct- an Autoscribe!

It's a magical writing desk that will spew out scrolls so long as you feed it paper and ink. A... printer.

I keep wanting to use it in something, but apart from having a wizard college having issues with the autoscribe jamming ("why is it only working if we use jam instead of ink? And whose idea was it to try?") and jokey printer stuff (did you know that blood is technically cheaper than printer toner in our world? So take 1d8 damage, friend, so I can print out my assignment) I dunno what.

In theory a player could have one of these badboys setup in the back of their carriage (we play fancy, and spare no expense on our ride) mass producing scrolls of some reliable damaging spell so the wizard can get working on 'Real' magic, like the combo of Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Grease, Glitterdust, and Crystaline Memories. (So you're basically helpless, your weapons are gone, you're blind, and also I have your recent memories and you are potentially close to braindeath)

[Hua]

As a DM, I am very careful to limit tech.
It is generally unbalancing.
In addition, many items are easily done with basic spells, but quite simply were never thought of without current context.
For example: Having seen a flashlight, you can make an argument that a hooded lamp can give the idea. Then make a continual light/flame on a small item at the end of a lever inside a tube. you slide it forward or back for broader or narrower beam. Pretty simple.
Also nothing that would likely be thought of until you already have the concept of a flashlight. It is called reverse engineering. Without the idea, you would not figure out the idea/method.
As the example above, mass producing something was never heard of or thought of in the level of tech for dnd. Knowing about it you can work backwards but the PCs in the world would not know of it to work backwards.

In general this should be very restricted.

[Telonius]

Return to the Temple of the Frog (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20070223a) has some sci-fi weaponry in it.