Paladin of Freedom in Golarion

[Palanan]

Does Pathfinder have anything like the paladin of freedom from the 3.5 Unearthed Arcana? Is there an archetype or other alternative that would fit the bill?

I’m aware there’s a third-party version on the PFSRD, but I’m looking for official Paizo material only.

[Eldonauran]

Something like that, but from a slightly different chassis. Champion of the Faith archetype for the Warpriest would fit that role, and many other Paladin-esque niches that do not have to be Lawful Good.

For the most part (ie, as far as I know) Pathfinder has stuck pretty close to the "Paladins must be Lawful Good" concept.

[Kurald Galain]

Does Pathfinder have anything like the paladin of freedom from the 3.5 Unearthed Arcana?

Yes, the Inquisitor class.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Eldonauran
For the most part (ie, as far as I know) Pathfinder has stuck pretty close to the "Paladins must be Lawful Good" concept.

Okay, thanks, this is very helpful.

[Lotheb]

The Gray Paladin archetype has a looser code of conduct and can be lawful neutral or neutral good in addition to LG. Doesnt get all the way to CG like a paladin of freedom, and several of their abilities are a straight downgrade to a standard paladin. The only worthwhile ability they get is being able to smite non-evil targets by spending two uses of smite evil

[Florian]

Does Pathfinder have anything like the paladin of freedom from the 3.5 Unearthed Arcana? Is there an archetype or other alternative that would fit the bill?

I’m aware there’s a third-party version on the PFSRD, but I’m looking for official Paizo material only.

Nope. In the current cosmology, that wouldn't make sense, same as with the C Monk.

On the other hand, all class archetypes that are committed to freedom are not really compatible with the L-based classes. Should tell you something.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Florian
Nope. In the current cosmology, that wouldn't make sense, same as with the C Monk.

I’m not up on the current cosmology. Why wouldn’t this make sense?


Originally Posted by Florian
On the other hand, all class archetypes that are committed to freedom are not really compatible with the L-based classes. Should tell you something.

I can’t really follow this, so not sure what it’s supposed to be telling me.

[Florian]

I’m not up on the current cosmology. Why wouldn’t this make sense?

Golarion makes heavy use of being able to tap into external power sources for abilities (and being granted access to said power sources). The Paladin class is the direct result of being able to tap into the power of LG, while Hellknights receive lesser powers by being able to tap into the over L spectrum, having the ability to Smite, but lacking Lay on Hands or Mercies. Monks work similarly.

The UA concept, that a Paladin "of" works based on dedication therefore doesn't make sense in this cosmology.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Florian
The UA concept, that a Paladin "of" works based on dedication therefore doesn't make sense in this cosmology.

I’m afraid that I’m just too unfamiliar with Pathfinder cosmology to understand what this means.

[Geddy2112]

There is the Chevalier (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/c-d/chevalier/) prestige class, which gives you some paladin features on a NG or CG character, and generally fits the theme of Paladin of Freedom.

[Kurald Galain]

I’m afraid that I’m just too unfamiliar with Pathfinder cosmology to understand what this means.

Paizo's paladin is the same as the classic literary paladin: he draws strength from having a code of honor, the classic concept of Right Makes Might.

Drawing strength without the code of honor, or drawing strength from a code that lets you do whatever you want (which is basically the same thing) goes against this concept.

However, if your concept is "holy warrior" or "champion of a cause" or whatnot, there are multiple different classes that can handle that. This concept is just not what the word "paladin" traditionally means, even if a number of modern games use the word "paladin" in that more generic sense.

[Florian]

I’m afraid that I’m just too unfamiliar with Pathfinder cosmology to understand what this means.

That one is actually easy. The "mundane" world is actually pretty limited and you need to tap into outside power sources to surpass the normal and regular limits.

The Paladin is the direct result of someone tapping into the power of LG and staying aligned to it. Kurald calls that "Right Makes Might" and is pretty correct on this matter.
Thing is, the power of the Paladin is a pretty direct matter of aligning with Heaven/LG, not a thing about the act of aligning itself.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Kurald Galain
Paizo's paladin is the same as the classic literary paladin: he draws strength from having a code of honor, the classic concept of Right Makes Might.

Drawing strength without the code of honor, or drawing strength from a code that lets you do whatever you want (which is basically the same thing) goes against this concept.

Hmm. Looking at the text for the paladin, it seems that righteous conduct qualifies the paladin as worthy of receiving divine gifts, which are duly employed in the fight against evil.

It doesn’t seem that much of a stretch to imagine that a different set of parameters for “righteous conduct,” in this case fighting against restrictions and repression, could qualify a paladin of freedom for gifts from a different divine source, one that values freedom over law. Offhand it certainly seems plausible.


Originally Posted by Florian
Thing is, the power of the Paladin is a pretty direct matter of aligning with Heaven/LG, not a thing about the act of aligning itself.

I know you have in-depth knowledge of the game and its underlying concepts, but sometimes your syntax can be really confusing. I am just not sure what you mean here, although I’m sure it would be very pertinent and helpful.

:smallsmile:

[Florian]

I know you have in-depth knowledge of the game and its underlying concepts, but sometimes your syntax can be really confusing. I am just not sure what you mean here, although I’m sure it would be very pertinent and helpful.

:smallsmile:

My native language is a bit more complex and I hate getting verbose to bring the differences across, when I feel that isn't needed.

But ok, let me try:

The main difference between the concept of "Paladin" and "Paladin of" is between internal and external "Power" source. The main question is, is it the conviction that powers the abilities or is it the alignment to the source?

For Golarion, the answer is pretty clear: Unswerving commitment to Heaven will result in Paladin power. Grey Paladins or Hellknights also recipe power, but not en paar with what Heaven/LG provides.

That should answer your question.

[Kurald Galain]

It doesn’t seem that much of a stretch to imagine that a different set of parameters for “righteous conduct,” in this case fighting against restrictions and repression,
Ah, but can you name a popular fictional character that does that? Not a character that has powers and chooses to fight repression, but a character that draws power from fighting repression?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Florian
Grey Paladins or Hellknights also recipe power, but not en paar with what Heaven/LG provides.

So where, exactly, does a Gray Paladin obtain his power? The text seems to suggest it’s a deity, since the Gray Paladin is required to follow a deity with certain alignment restrictions, plus upholding the tenets of the chosen faith.

Given this, it seems more than plausible that other flavors of paladin could operate according to different codes, drawing power from divine sources of a different alignment.


Originally Posted by Florian
Grey Paladins or Hellknights also recipe power, but not en paar with what Heaven/LG provides.

This should be “receive power” and “on par.” I’m guessing autocorrect is the culprit here. :smallsmile:



Originally Posted by Kurald Galain
Ah, but can you name a popular fictional character that does that? Not a character that has powers and chooses to fight repression, but a character that draws power from fighting repression?

Not sure why a game concept needs to be limited to popular fictional characters.


Originally Posted by Geddy2112
There is the Chevalier prestige class, which gives you some paladin features on a NG or CG character, and generally fits the theme of Paladin of Freedom.

I meant to thank you earlier for this link, I appreciate the suggestion.

.

[Kurald Galain]

Not sure why a game concept needs to be limited to popular fictional characters.
It's not. But classes and archetypes are usually built on popular fictional characters or concepts, because it turns out that if they're not, almost nobody wants to play them.

So yes, almost all RPGs have more support for playing a common fictional concept, than for arbitrarily combining powers A, C, and Q with motivation X. And this is why Paizo's Paladin is based on the archetypical literary paladin, and not on arbitrarily sticking some damaging and healing powers on a swordsman.

[Psyren]

I personally have no problems with Paladins of Freedom being in Golarion. I also think Antipaladins (god I hate that name though) only being CE is questionable too. I think Paladins of the other two corner alignments would be a great addition to the game, and would fit into the cosmology/pantheon just fine. I could easily see Cayden Cailean with a Paladin order, and hell, Asmodeus already has one, albeit they can't actually call themselves Paladins.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Kurald Galain
But classes and archetypes are usually built on popular fictional characters or concepts, because it turns out that if they're not, almost nobody wants to play them.

Whether or not a concept is popular among players has no bearing on whether it’s consistent with game-world cosmology, which is how I'm approaching this.


Originally Posted by Psyren
I also think Antipaladins (god I hate that name though) only being CE is questionable too. I think Paladins of the other two corner alignments would be a great addition to the game, and would fit into the cosmology/pantheon just fine.

An antipaladin who’s LE makes perfect sense to me, and seems likely to be a much more dangerous opponent.


Originally Posted by Psyren
I could easily see Cayden Cailean with a Paladin order….

From what I know of Cayden Cailean, he seems ready-made for a paladin of freedom. I don’t know the details of his doctrine, but I have the impression that “randomly doing good without being a stick-in-the-mud” would fit him just fine.

[Kurald Galain]

Lol, it took you all of three posts to go from "fight for freedom!!" to "yeah, just do whatever as long as it's sort of good-ish, mmm'kay". That was basically my point :smallbiggrin:

Btw Cayden is mostly known for being a partying pleasure-seeker, hitting on several goddesses, and becoming a god in a drunken bender that he doesn't remember.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Kurald Galain
Lol, it took you all of three posts to go from "fight for freedom!!" to "yeah, just do whatever as long as it's sort of good-ish, mmm'kay". That was basically my point….

I’m trying to understand the assumptions of the cosmology and their potential bearing on game mechanics. If you’re lolling and making fun of that, you’re not helping.

[Psyren]

Lol, it took you all of three posts to go from "fight for freedom!!" to "yeah, just do whatever as long as it's sort of good-ish, mmm'kay". That was basically my point :smallbiggrin:

Btw Cayden is mostly known for being a partying pleasure-seeker, hitting on several goddesses, and becoming a god in a drunken bender that he doesn't remember.

He's known for a good time sure, but he's not a pure hedonist. He enjoys companionship, camaraderie, and enthusiastic consent.

Moreover, he's not all about partying - he violently opposes slavery and his church sponsors the biggest group of freedom fighters in Golarion. That's exactly where I'd expect PoFs to be operating. He also happens to be the God of Bravery, which is another area I'd expect to find paladins, for obvious reasons.

[Florian]

I’m trying to understand the assumptions of the cosmology and their potential bearing on game mechanics. If you’re lolling and making fun of that, you’re not helping.

He actually is.

There's a stance that it is the commitment that powers a Paladin, then there's the stance that committing to the code or one of the regular deities are the actual source of power. Big difference.

As it stands, the RAW stance is that it is the alignment that actually provides the power.

[digiman619]

Well, Spheres of Might has a defensive class called the sentinel and it's Paragon archetype archetypes is very paladin-y and can be used by any non TN alignment. On tablet, so do links, but looking for "spheres of power wiki" will get you there.

[Psyren]

He actually is.

There's a stance that it is the commitment that powers a Paladin, then there's the stance that committing to the code or one of the regular deities are the actual source of power. Big difference.

As it stands, the RAW stance is that it is the alignment that actually provides the power.

And that's fine, but it raises the question - why are LG and CE the only alignments that can power paladins? It seems to point to the "LG = best good" and "CE = worst evil" nonsense that 4e tried and failed to get us to swallow. All the good alignments should be equally good, and all the evil ones should be equally evil.

And while you don't need a deity to be a paladin, I don't think you can divorce the concepts entirely either. On Golarion, paladins tend to be part of paladin orders, each of which is sworn to a deity. It's not required, but it applies to the majority of them.

[Eldonauran]

And that's fine, but it raises the question - why are LG and CE the only alignments that can power paladins? It seems to point to the "LG = best good" and "CE = worst evil" nonsense that 4e tried and failed to get us to swallow. All the good alignments should be equally good, and all the evil ones should be equally evil.I believe it has something to do with order/chaos being opposites and good/evil being opposites. As the universe tends towards uniformity from its chaotic beginnings, and life tends towards benevolence and coexistence from its immoral and selfish beginnings (arguably evil), the universe could simply be rewarding those that embody the ideals it is heading towards, sort of a peak of existence.

But, thats just my rambling and brainstorming.

[Florian]

And that's fine, but it raises the question

No, it doesn't. It means that classes that use an external power source are defined by that power source. That's why the "fall from grace" when they shift alignment.

[Psyren]

I believe it has something to do with order/chaos being opposites and good/evil being opposites. As the universe tends towards uniformity from its chaotic beginnings, and life tends towards benevolence and coexistence from its immoral and selfish beginnings (arguably evil), the universe could simply be rewarding those that embody the ideals it is heading towards, sort of a peak of existence.

But, thats just my rambling and brainstorming.

CG and LE are just as opposite as LG and CE though.


No, it doesn't. It means that classes that use an external power source are defined by that power source. That's why the "fall from grace" when they shift alignment.

But why is "LG" that kind of power source while "CG" isn't? It's not adequately explained other than being a sacred cow.

[Florian]

But why is "LG" that kind of power source while "CG" isn't? It's not adequately explained other than being a sacred cow.

It´s more a legacy problem starting with 3E class design and choices. The Paladin stands out because it is a very specific class, while most of the others are overly generic, with some of them being entirely too near each other to variant being classes on their own.

Personally, I´d just remove a lot of classes and go the VMC route to add various power sources.

[Kurald Galain]

And that's fine, but it raises the question - why are LG and CE the only alignments that can power paladins?
The CE antipaladin is merely a copy/paste job of the regular paladin with all the relevant words inverted. It is not a literary archetype, nor a common type of villain, nor a popular class in PF; so it's really not relevant to this discussion.

More to the point,

But why is "LG" that kind of power source while "CG" isn't? It's not adequately explained other than being a sacred cow.
Because CG characters do not generally have a consistent Code that they could draw strength from. Chaotic characters tend to gravitate towards "act however I feel like" (as long as it's not too evil). A "code" that lets you act however you please is not a code. And as the result, there aren't any popular fictional characters that draw power from fighting repression (as opposed to a character that has powers and chooses to fight repression). This is not about sacred cows, but about what makes a consistent narrative. This is why Right Makes Might is a trope, and Acting However I Feel Like Makes Me Stronger is not.

This is why Sir Galahad gets divine powers and Robin Hood does not.

[digiman619]

The CE antipaladin is merely a copy/paste job of the regular paladin with all the relevant words inverted. It is not a literary archetype, nor a common type of villain, nor a popular class in PF; so it's really not relevant to this discussion.

More to the point,

Because CG characters do not generally have a consistent Code that they could draw strength from. Chaotic characters tend to gravitate towards "act however I feel like" (as long as it's not too evil). A "code" that lets you act however you please is not a code. And as the result, there aren't any popular fictional characters that draw power from fighting repression (as opposed to a character that has powers and chooses to fight repression). This is not about sacred cows, but about what makes a consistent narrative. This is why Right Makes Might is a trope, and Acting However I Feel Like Makes Me Stronger is not.

This is why Sir Galahad gets divine powers and Robin Hood does not.

No, the CG trope that says there should be CG paladins is Screw the Rules, I'm Doing What's Right (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScrewTheRulesImDoingWhatsRight). The principle that doing the right thing is always the right idea. Not just when it's convenient, and not just when there's not a pressing reason not to.

[Vertharrad]

No, the CG trope that says there should be CG paladins is Screw the Rules, I'm Doing What's Right (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScrewTheRulesImDoingWhatsRight). The principle that doing the right thing is always the right idea. Not just when it's convenient, and not just when there's not a pressing reason not to.

Usually because Screw the Rules, I'm Doing What's Right becomes...Screw this job we're all gonna die I'm going over there where I know I'm gonna be useful. There isn't any tension to do the right thing and you mentally clock out of the job because you know...no pesky code to keep you there so why bother? On top of even LG's can become freedom fighter's for the reason that it's the right thing to do and their code will keep them there to see it through. No there shouldn't be CG paladins. You have plenty of alternatives to pick from - warpriests, inquisitors, PoW, SoM, and plenty of archetypes to shake a fist at, use them.

[Florian]

No, the CG trope that says there should be CG paladins is Screw the Rules, I'm Doing What's Right (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScrewTheRulesImDoingWhatsRight). The principle that doing the right thing is always the right idea. Not just when it's convenient, and not just when there's not a pressing reason not to.

That's exactly why it ain´t a power source. Doing it right thing is something that all three G alignments share and screw the rules is part and parcel of playing a paladin in a tricky situation and still stick to the code instead of blindly following the rules, for ex., why Paladin don't fall when they fight against Cheliax or help the Bellflower Network freeing slaves.

Edit: Heeres an example for an archetype that is powered by GB by emulation what different CG outsiders can do: https://www.aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Swashbuckler%20Aza tariel

[Kurald Galain]

No, the CG trope that says there should be CG paladins is Screw the Rules, I'm Doing What's Right (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScrewTheRulesImDoingWhatsRight). The principle that doing the right thing is always the right idea. Not just when it's convenient, and not just when there's not a pressing reason not to.

While that is certainly a valid philosophy, it is not one that grants you supernatural powers in fiction. In other words, it's CG (or NG, for that matter) but it's not a paladin.

[Sayt]

Pathfinder does have the Rose Warden (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/n-r/rose-warden/), which is a a character which gains mystical power from an opposition to repression and oppression.

It's not Knight-like, because the trappings of a knight (Full plate and a horse, and upkeep thereof) historically required a substantial income that usually came from landed nobility, which in feudal system hits some problems with opposition to oppression.

I thought making the "Paladin of Freedom" rogue based was quite a good idea, honestly.

[Eldonauran]

CG and LE are just as opposite as LG and CE though.That (being opposites) was not my point nor the focus of what I posted. Bit of selective reading there.

[Florian]

That (being opposites) was not my point nor the focus of what I posted. Bit of selective reading there.

Ah, not really. Psyren points out something that 4E did, turning the equal "grid" into a "line" with the polar opposites of LG/CE being the "goodest" and "baddest" alignment. Your argument, that there's more or less a "paragon alignment" that will develop those abilities and grant them, fits eerily close here.

[Peat]

The CE antipaladin is merely a copy/paste job of the regular paladin with all the relevant words inverted. It is not a literary archetype, nor a common type of villain, nor a popular class in PF; so it's really not relevant to this discussion.

But if Paizo happily puts in uncommon fantasy features such as the antipaladin, why not put in other uncommon fantasy features based on similar lines?

I'd also argue that, barring works influenced by D&D, the knight drawing power from his heart felt devotion to honour isn't actually all that common either.

[Florian]

But if Paizo happily puts in uncommon fantasy features such as the antipaladin, why not put in other uncommon fantasy features based on similar lines?

I'd also argue that, barring works influenced by D&D, the knight drawing power from his heart felt devotion to honour isn't actually all that common either.

That knight is actually the Cavalier and their code.

Ad for the Anti-Paladin, guesses are up, but I think they wanted to showcase how an complete alternate class would look like.

[Kurald Galain]

I'd also argue that, barring works influenced by D&D, the knight drawing power from his heart felt devotion to honour isn't actually all that common either.

Try Arthurian legends :smallbiggrin:

Those have been extremely influential. A good modern variant is the Stormlight Archive by Brandon Sanderson, or any of the Valdemar books by Mercedes Lackey, or the Ultima or Quest for Glory video game series. Or, surprisingly enough, various World of Darkness systems.


Pathfinder does have the Rose Warden (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/n-r/rose-warden/)
That's a good freedom fighter, but note that the power of the Rose Waren explicitly comes from worshipping the goddess Milani (http://archivesofnethys.com/PrestigeClassesDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Rose%20Warden ), not from dedication to an ideal. So it's basically a cleric.

[Florian]

And with Milani, the actual joke it that the goddess... wait for it..... is a permanent citizen of the LN city of Axis.

Surprisingly, yes, Ultima is actually quite good.

[Eldonauran]

Ah, not really. Psyren points out something that 4E did, turning the equal "grid" into a "line" with the polar opposites of LG/CE being the "goodest" and "baddest" alignment. Your argument, that there's more or less a "paragon alignment" that will develop those abilities and grant them, fits eerily close here.To borrow your phrase "Ah, not really." My musings (not argument) was that the universe itself has a tendency towards a certain direction and that (perhaps) aligning towards that certain direction, was what granted the Paladin their power. That was the entire purpose of my post, not that one alignment was greater than the other.

[Florian]

To borrow your phrase "Ah, not really." My musings (not argument) was that the universe itself has a tendency towards a certain direction and that (perhaps) aligning towards that certain direction, was what granted the Paladin their power. That was the entire purpose of my post, not that one alignment was greater than the other.

Your answer is still a little bit ambiguous. How we talk about that in detail will largely depend on how close we keep to the official Great Beyond (This is actually something that Psyren fails at)

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Sayt
Pathfinder does have the Rose Warden, which is a a character which gains mystical power from an opposition to repression and oppression.

This is excellent, thanks. Really helpful for my purposes.


Originally Posted by Eldonauran
I believe it has something to do with order/chaos being opposites and good/evil being opposites. As the universe tends towards uniformity from its chaotic beginnings, and life tends towards benevolence and coexistence from its immoral and selfish beginnings (arguably evil), the universe could simply be rewarding those that embody the ideals it is heading towards, sort of a peak of existence.

I meant to respond to this earlier, because there’s some interesting thoughts here.

The part about tending towards uniformity from chaos…is interesting, and debatable, since I can think of examples in which the universe is actually tending towards more complexity instead of uniformity. (For instance, the synthesis of elements heavier than iron in supernovas, which over billions of years tends to lead to greater enrichment of heavier elements throughout the galaxy.)

As for life starting out as “immoral and selfish,” and tending towards “benevolence and coexistence,” I would have to disagree on both counts. Ecosystems have become more complex over geological time, but grazing, predation and other forms of energy transfer have remained constants throughout, and I don’t see either as evil or immoral.

Intelligent life, on the other hand…there is certainly some hope that cooperation and coexistence can become more prevalent between individuals and societies, so I’d say that lines up more closely with the general trend you were describing.

In fact, that would make for an interesting pair of societies or cabals, one dedicated to reducing chaos through uniformity, the other to promoting peace and coexistence. Would they cooperate, would they clash? That could be fun to play with.




Originally Posted by Florian
This is actually something that Psyren fails at

This is completely uncalled for.

[Florian]

This is completely uncalled for.

Depends.

The whole Great Beyond model actually takes some time to get into and a bit more time to understand why the planes are not equal, as was the case with the Great Wheel. Psyren is quite knowledgeable about PF, so he should actually know the backgrounds were talking about.

Edit: Let me put it this way: For someone who should know the setting the questions asked and the criticism is wrong because we're talking about the Great Beyond, not about the Great Wheel.

For the Golarion model, the nine alignments are not spread evenly and you don't have clear pairing of opposition. LG - CE, CG - LE are actually not a thing.

[Peat]

Try Arthurian legends :smallbiggrin:

Those have been extremely influential. A good modern variant is the Stormlight Archive by Brandon Sanderson, or any of the Valdemar books by Mercedes Lackey, or the Ultima or Quest for Glory video game series. Or, surprisingly enough, various World of Darkness systems.


That's a good freedom fighter, but note that the power of the Rose Waren explicitly comes from worshipping the goddess Milani (http://archivesofnethys.com/PrestigeClassesDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Rose%20Warden ), not from dedication to an ideal. So it's basically a cleric.

What Arthurian legends features a knight whose power lies explicitly in their devotion to good and honour, and wanes when they perform dishonourable deeds? And how many feature them healing people? Because I can't think of many of either. Ditto the Charlemagne stories.

And the vast majority of powers in the Valdemar books are personal ones. It's only really the bonds with Companions that aren't. So, not granted by devotion etc.etc. And very few Heralds are Healers.

Can't answer to the other ones but I'm going to guess that while they're in the rough ball park, there's definite big differences between them and a D&D Paladin.

[Eldonauran]

The part about tending towards uniformity from chaos…is interesting, and debatable, since I can think of examples in which the universe is actually tending towards more complexity instead of uniformity. (For instance, the synthesis of elements heavier than iron in supernovas, which over billions of years tends to lead to greater enrichment of heavier elements throughout the galaxy.) Yes, there are examples of parts of the universe tending towards increasing complexity, but they are isolated areas that form a sort of closed system. There are many theories about how our universe will end, one of which being the great rip. When all matter becomes equally spaced out, and uniform (orderly), and then the forces further separate the particles to their subatomic pieces. Everything becomes uniform. This was what I was (attempting) to get at.

Now, the Pathfinder universe might function differently at those levels, but we do know from the Great Beyond that energy is flowing from places of high density to the lower. From the positive energy plane into the material plane through the very heart of the stars, and eventually makes its way to the Negative Energy plane through various other means. The ENTIRE system is designed in an orderly fashion, even how the realms of chaos turn energy into matter (even if that actual process seems unpredictable to us).


As for life starting out as “immoral and selfish,” and tending towards “benevolence and coexistence,” I would have to disagree on both counts. Ecosystems have become more complex over geological time, but grazing, predation and other forms of energy transfer have remained constants throughout, and I don’t see either as evil or immoral.

Intelligent life, on the other hand…there is certainly some hope that cooperation and coexistence can become more prevalent between individuals and societies, so I’d say that lines up more closely with the general trend you were describing. I happen to agree with you on this level, but I tend to separate from you on the basis of directing my definitions towards the Pathfinder universe, rather than the real life one. We know much, much more about the Pathfinder universe because it was created and designed by people. So much of real life assumptions (even well reasoned ones with evidence to help back up that reasoning) is unverifiable. Anyway, I'm getting sidetracked.

I don't consider unintelligent life to fit the musings I made earlier simply because morality is a concept of intelligent, sentient life. Animals do not have an alignment. They are amoral (which is a better term that I should have used previously). From amoral creatures, morality ensued.


For the Golarion model, the nine alignments are not spread evenly and you don't have clear pairing of opposition. LG - CE, CG - LE are actually not a thing. Florian has the right of this. There is no axis or great wheel in the Pathfinder great beyond. The Abyss is by far the largest and most dominating plane of existence that is constantly being held back by a number of other things, and through it, leads to places even beyond the realms of comprehension where even more horrid things lurk. The Abyss surrounds EVERYTHING, even the Astral plane. It is the borders of the Great Beyond, though just the surface of the bubble in the grand scheme of things.

[Psyren]

Your answer is still a little bit ambiguous. How we talk about that in detail will largely depend on how close we keep to the official Great Beyond (This is actually something that Psyren fails at)

I would have thought it was obvious that I wasn't talking about "official Great Beyond" given that I'm advocating for paladins of all 4 corners rather than the two that exist :smallconfused: In short, I'm discussing "what should be", rather than "what is." (Furthermore, I wouldn't hitch your wagon too closely to "official Great Beyond" as a standard given that they've already explicitly said (http://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo5lkrq?Paladin-Class-Preview) they're looking at "corner alignment paladins" as a possible design direction for P2.)

Hell, 5e divorced their paladins from alignment completely, and the sky didn't fall as far as I can tell. I don't think Paizo should go that route necessarily, but it's a good datapoint that you can slaughter that sacred cow and still sell books.


It´s more a legacy problem starting with 3E class design and choices.

My point exactly, and see above.


The CE antipaladin is merely a copy/paste job of the regular paladin with all the relevant words inverted. It is not a literary archetype, nor a common type of villain, nor a popular class in PF; so it's really not relevant to this discussion.

I'd say any lack of popularity it has (if you could even prove that) would likely have more to do with the fact that evil-only classes would be more avoided in general, than that a CE paladin variant (which existed in 3.5) with appropriate abilities, even inverted ones, would be undesirable specifically.



Florian has the right of this. There is no axis or great wheel in the Pathfinder great beyond. The Abyss is by far the largest and most dominating plane of existence that is constantly being held back by a number of other things, and through it, leads to places even beyond the realms of comprehension where even more horrid things lurk. The Abyss surrounds EVERYTHING, even the Astral plane. It is the borders of the Great Beyond, though just the surface of the bubble in the grand scheme of things.

That explains why CE might be a good "source" for paladins, but not why LG would also. Nowhere in PA or ISWG is Heaven described as being somehow more (good, powerful, etc) than Nirvana or Elysium. In fact, if you go by population, Nirvana actually has the most angels.

[Florian]

@Psyren:

I see it as a legacy problem because it harkens back to a time when they didn't do "modular" classes beyond the cleric with their whopping choice of two domains to represent their faith. The follow-up problem to that is building complete new classes to fill a void that's not really there.

I find two thing in the logic that were talking about very flawed. The first one is that the "edge" planes, so the ones without a N-component to their alignment to be any more special than the "middle" planes.
The other thing is the "of freedom" or "of tyranny" thing, because that narrows down both, the planes and the "Paladin" to be only concerned about one particular thing. The association of C with "freedom" is already a pretty weak one, as the whole G-spectrum is already broadly opposed to slavery and such.

Personally, I´d go the route of creating a basic "Exemplar" class, which has to pick one alignment and the corresponding major outsider race that stands for each alignment plane and gain a set of powers that correspond to that race, not some abstract concept that we try to associate with an alignment, ie. Archons for LG, Agathions for NG, Azatas for CG, Devils for LE and so on.

[Psyren]

I'm totally fine with a class called "Exemplar" and then making the LG Exemplar say something like "commonly called a paladin."

But I'm betting that ship has sailed. P2 already has a class called "Paladin", thus so will Golarion2/GB2. And whatever comes out of the playtest (which will only have LG ones, at least to start with) is almost certainly going to be tied to alignment, much more so than the 5e version ended up being.

Given that Paizo wants theirs to be alignment-focused, I think 4 paladins is splitting the difference nicely between P1's one and 5e's nine.

The trouble with allowing Neutral-component paladins is figuring out when they fall. When does a NG paladin tell enough lies (for the greater good, surely!) to become CG, or kowtow to authority enough to become LG? That is going to vary so much by table that the forum, table, and PFS arguments will be legendary, and the entire class might end up banned as a result.

[Eldonauran]

That explains why CE might be a good "source" for paladins, but not why LG would also. Nowhere in PA or ISWG is Heaven described as being somehow more (good, powerful, etc) than Nirvana or Elysium. In fact, if you go by population, Nirvana actually has the most angels.
Not really...? Just because the Abyss stretches around the whole planar cosmos does not mean that it is a greater source of power, merely that it serves as a boundary, with the heart of the 'bubble' being the Positive Energy and Negative Energy planes.

As for Heaven, you'll need to dive into the Great Beyond book to get more information about it. It might not mean much to you (I have no idea) but an almost infinite mountain of order and good rising out of the sea of chaos (the Maelstrom) with a "simple" garden at its summit where every petitioner that enters will emerge as an Archon ... That tells me that some unknown and perhaps unknowable power resides within, shaping pure chaos into something diametrically opposed to itself. I'd like to think that it is this 'power' (or being) that is the ultimate source of the Paladin's power but no where is that actually spelled out anywhere.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Eldonauran
As for Heaven, you'll need to dive into the Great Beyond book to get more information about it.

Actually, my one remaining question is where all the great-beyondey stuff is spelled out. Is it all in the Pathfinder Chronicles Great Beyond (https://www.amazon.com/Pathfinder-Chronicles-Great-Beyond-Multiverse/dp/160125167X/) paperback, or is it scattered through other sources? And is Planar Adventures now the new reference?

It seems strange, actually, to bring out a hardcover sourcebook on the structure of the planes just before switching over to a new edition, which may well have a completely new approach to the whole shebang.

[Eldonauran]

Actually, my one remaining question is where all the great-beyondey stuff is spelled out. Is it all in the Pathfinder Chronicles Great Beyond (https://www.amazon.com/Pathfinder-Chronicles-Great-Beyond-Multiverse/dp/160125167X/) paperback, or is it scattered through other sources? And is Planar Adventures now the new reference?

It seems strange, actually, to bring out a hardcover sourcebook on the structure of the planes just before switching over to a new edition, which may well have a completely new approach to the whole shebang.Hmm, I'm not so sure about the Planar Adventures. I haven't bought a copy of it just yet, so I am not sure how much further it expands on the different planes. I do own the Great Beyond and use it extensively for my own custom tweaking of the planar locations. I might just pick it up today and give it a read....

As for the release before pathfinder 2.0, I can't say. I switched to pathfinder because of the 4th edition change in D&D, so depending on how similar the mechanics are, I might not bother with PF2. 4e was not to my liking even after several plays, and even 5e doesn't interest me much, aside from how they handled multiclassed spellcasters.

[Psyren]

Not really...? Just because the Abyss stretches around the whole planar cosmos does not mean that it is a greater source of power, merely that it serves as a boundary, with the heart of the 'bubble' being the Positive Energy and Negative Energy planes.

As for Heaven, you'll need to dive into the Great Beyond book to get more information about it. It might not mean much to you (I have no idea) but an almost infinite mountain of order and good rising out of the sea of chaos (the Maelstrom) with a "simple" garden at its summit where every petitioner that enters will emerge as an Archon ... That tells me that some unknown and perhaps unknowable power resides within, shaping pure chaos into something diametrically opposed to itself. I'd like to think that it is this 'power' (or being) that is the ultimate source of the Paladin's power but no where is that actually spelled out anywhere.

For the record, since you and Florian have made a couple of not-so-subtle insinuations otherwise now, I possess both Great Beyond and Planar Adventures, as well as ISG/ISWG etc. And also for the record, Great Beyond is actually not a Pathfinder (the system) supplement. It details Golarion as it existed during its 3.5 incarnation, what I would call version zero, and several details of the setting were changed when PF was actually released (such as psionics being removed from Vudra since PF doesn't officially have it.) A more relevant change for this discussion is that Heaven went from being mildly Good and mildly Lawful (Great Beyond pg. 4) to Strong Good and Strong Law (Planar Adventures pg. 154.) Great Beyond was published in June 2009, and the first printing of the Pathfinder CRB debuted 2 months later. In short, Great Beyond is no longer an authoritative source for anything in Pathfinder, so you should probably stop referencing it or directing anyone to read it.

But even if we were to still treat Great Beyond as canon, it's irrelevant to this discussion because neither it nor Planar Adventures portrays Heaven as being superior to the other upper planes in any respect like you and Florian seem to want to believe. In fact, I think instead that you're working backwards from the current status quo to try and justify the sacred cow's existence, rather than critically examining whether or not it is still needed.

It seems far more likely to me that they kept Paladins LG-only primarily to maximize backwards-compatibility for what was (at the time) the genuinely risky prospect of continuing 3.5 without the D&D brand name. The fact that they are now questioning this paradigm for P2 leads me to believe they're putting a bit more thought into the design now than you and Florian are. And I say, good for them.

[Florian]

@Psyren:
We're not talking about the book "Great Beyond", but about the cosmology model that's also called "Great Beyond".

@Eldonauran:
Planar Adventures is a pretty well done update to the old Great Beyond, going into more detail how deities and the river of soul works and also including some of the thing that were strongly hinted at in Occult Mysteries and Occult Adventures. Personally, I deem it one of the best of the hardcover book line and a fitting finish to P1.

[Psyren]

@Psyren:
We're not talking about the book "Great Beyond", but about the cosmology model that's also called "Great Beyond".



As for Heaven, you'll need to dive into the Great Beyond book

That part of my post was specifically responding to Eldonauran. My more general point about being too narrowly focused on/attached to current Paladins is what was aimed at both of you.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Florian
We're not talking about the book "Great Beyond", but about the cosmology model that's also called "Great Beyond".

My question still stands. What is the primary written source material you’re referencing for this “cosmology model” called the Great Beyond?

If it’s not in the book called “Great Beyond,” then where is it?

[Psyren]

@ Palanan: Planar Adventures is the primary cosmology book now. It doesn't have much on paladins that can't be found elsewhere. There isn't anything official to support what you want; as far as this edition goes, Paladins (and their counterparts) are LG and CE only.

[Palanan]

Okay, thanks. Florian seemed to be referencing material that was found somewhere after "Great Beyond" but before Planar Adventures. As you pointed out, "Great Beyond" is effectively 3.5, so I'm wondering where Florian is getting his pre-Planar Adventures cosmology.

Or, maybe a better way to phrase it is, which sources in Pathfinder deal with planes and worlds beyond the material? There's a fair amount in Occult Adventures, and a little more in Horror Adventures, but I'm not sure what other PF books might cover other aspects in more detail.

[Florian]

The Great Beyond is nothing else than the classic Great Wheel that has been used in D&D for ages.
Paizo had to do the revamp because they lost access to all the copyrighted material (Ex: Baator, Baatezu, Tanar´Ri, Rilmani and names like Mechanus, so on). It doesn't matter that the first version was published for 3.5E, it had to be published before the actual PF core books so that the "generic" gods and plains could make any sense.

[Psyren]

I think that's the point - before Planar Adventures, there wasn't one PF source that had this stuff compiled, it was spread across a variety of spots. Inner Sea Gods, Inner Sea World Guide, Chronicles of the Righteous, Book of the Damned, Planes of Power...

Planar Adventures is basically PF's "Manual of the Planes" providing the consolidated and deeper viewpoint on everything that came before.

(Above responding to Palanan)

[Morty]

Try as I might, I can't think of anything that could go wrong if you took the vanilla Pathfinder paladin, wrote down Chaotic Good on their sheet and played them with less emphasis on justice and honor and more about freedom and liberty to pursue one's passions, opposing those who would stifle and oppress people. Being good is a far more important part of the class than being lawful.

Which means that, yeah, playing an evil paladin or even a neutral one would be far trickier. The first step would be to come up with a coherent idea of a philosophy or oath one might serve that would be evil, rather than just running around killing people for the dark gods. But even then paladin abilities are focused on healing, supporting and defending.

[Eldonauran]

@ Palanan: Planar Adventures is the primary cosmology book now. It doesn't have much on paladins that can't be found elsewhere. There isn't anything official to support what you want; as far as this edition goes, Paladins (and their counterparts) are LG and CE only.First, I want to apologize for any insinuations I might have made. I was unaware that you possessed the Great Beyond book. Since you have clarified that point, it isn't an issue anymore.

Secondly, I still treat the Great Beyond as a source book for information on the Pathfinder cosmology. It really doesn't matter to me if they printed the material at the beginning or updated it now. I have (since my last post) purchased the Planar Handbook and been reading into it (and will treat it as a primary source, but I am not going to ignore the Great Beyond or stop referencing it). Not much has changed between the two, as far as I can see. Though the two books seem to focus a bit more on different things, they do not seem to be in conflict with each other on anything I've seen so far (minor updates to planar features, and the like, notwithstanding)

Though, I am quite surprised with the Planar Adventures book. The inclusion of how the souls are created, pass through the Great Beyond, and recycle is remarkably similar to how I chose to showcase in my games.

[Psyren]

No worries Eld - but if you're using info in an outdated (nearly decade-old at this point) book to justify why a certain plane should be more highly regarded for function X (empowering Paladins in this case) than another plane, I'm going to point out what I see as the flaws in that justification. In broad strokes the planes didn't change much, i.e. Archons live in Heaven, Demons in the Abyss, souls go to the Boneyard atop the Spire etc.) but to me at least, the fine details matter. Because I don't see why Heaven would be any better at that particular function than Elysium or Nirvana beyond "because we say so."


Try as I might, I can't think of anything that could go wrong if you took the vanilla Pathfinder paladin, wrote down Chaotic Good on their sheet and played them with less emphasis on justice and honor and more about freedom and liberty to pursue one's passions, opposing those who would stifle and oppress people. Being good is a far more important part of the class than being lawful.

Which means that, yeah, playing an evil paladin or even a neutral one would be far trickier. The first step would be to come up with a coherent idea of a philosophy or oath one might serve that would be evil, rather than just running around killing people for the dark gods. But even then paladin abilities are focused on healing, supporting and defending.

You'd have to tweak the code a bit I imagine - CG paladins would have few qualms about lying for instance, even under oath, especially if doing so protects innocents - but beyond that I completely agree, it shouldn't be this much of a headache to play one.

[Eldonauran]

No worries Eld - but if you're using info in an outdated (nearly decade-old at this point) book to justify why a certain plane should be more highly regarded for function X (empowering Paladins in this case) than another plane, I'm going to point out what I see as the flaws in that justification. In broad strokes the planes didn't change much, i.e. Archons live in Heaven, Demons in the Abyss, souls go to the Boneyard atop the Spire etc.) but to me at least, the fine details matter. Because I don't see why Heaven would be any better at that particular function than Elysium or Nirvana beyond "because we say so."That is interesting, because to me, it is the fine details that actually point me towards my earlier musing of why Heaven might be the source of the Paladin's power. But, I can see how either argument turns into a circular one.

The one overriding reason that I think Heaven is the source of the Paladin's power, leaving aside all other issues of 'because they said so' or 'there should be other paladins of other alignments', is that Paladins are a force of justice. Not just good. Not just blind obedience to the law. They embody every aspect of what Heaven operates with and stands for. While the other Good planes harbor aspects of the Paladin code, none are a perfect reflection of what that code entails. But, it is fine if you disagree with me. I am just attempting to explain my thought process, not trying to convince you or anyone else.

[Psyren]

I have no problem with a class that exemplifies Heaven's ideals. I'm just pointing out that Elysium has ideals too.

Anyway, I think we've both answered the OP's original question and beaten this topic to the Boneyard and back.

[Morty]

You'd have to tweak the code a bit I imagine - CG paladins would have few qualms about lying for instance, even under oath, especially if doing so protects innocents - but beyond that I completely agree, it shouldn't be this much of a headache to play one.

Simplest way to do it would be probably to replace it with something against coercion and intimidation. But that's a bit tricky since intimidating an evildoer into not doing evil isn't exactly oppression.

(I figure this is actually helpful to the OP so I threw that in.)

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
Inner Sea Gods, Inner Sea World Guide, Chronicles of the Righteous, Book of the Damned, Planes of Power...

This is a helpful shortlist of books to consult, thanks.


Originally Posted by Psyren
Anyway, I think we've both answered the OP's original question and beaten this topic to the Boneyard and back.

Correct on both counts. :smallsmile:

[Sayt]

That's a good freedom fighter, but note that the power of the Rose Waren explicitly comes from worshipping the goddess Milani (http://archivesofnethys.com/PrestigeClassesDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Rose%20Warden ), not from dedication to an ideal. So it's basically a cleric.

I mean, it's a holy warrior dedicated to fighting oppression and injustice, it may not be a CG Paladin to a tee, but it gives a large part of the fantasy behind a CG Paladin.

Also, as a Goddess, Milani represents an ideal, that of resistance to unjust rule and repressive regimes. Is a Paladin of Iomedae less a paladin because they serve Iomedae, instead of an Ideal repreresented by Iomedae?

[torrasque666]

I mean, it's a holy warrior dedicated to fighting oppression and injustice, it may not be a CG Paladin to a tee, but it gives a large part of the fantasy behind a CG Paladin.

Also, as a Goddess, Milani represents an ideal, that of resistance to unjust rule and repressive regimes. Is a Paladin of Iomedae less a paladin because they serve Iomedae, instead of an Ideal repreresented by Iomedae?
A Paladin of Iomedae might worship and serve Iomedae, but Iomedae is not the source of their power, unlike a Rose Warden.

[Psyren]

A Paladin of Iomedae might worship and serve Iomedae, but Iomedae is not the source of their power, unlike a Rose Warden.

Yes and no. In Golarion, Iomedan paladins (like all the other deific paladin orders) have tenets they follow in addition to the standard code of conduct. Joining that god's paladin order means you have to abide by that god's code or fall; these can be found in Inner Sea Gods. Hers includes never refusing a challenge from an equal, being willing to lay down your life for your comrades if it means they can survive, and never surrendering unless doing so would spare others (not yourself) pain.