Need help with [Paladin / Sorcerer] multiclass

[hwem]

Hi. I've been lurking this forums for the last few months and finally decided to join the community to get some help.
I'd like to make a highly optimized character in Paladin/Sorcerer multiclass and I'd love to hear your advices.
My questions are

1. What oath and origin are optimal for a paladin/sorcerer from a mechanical aspect?

2. What spread works best at higher levels? My campaign will be going to level 20 at a highly accelerated rate in which all the experiences are buffed and we are constantly in battle as our DM and party loves combat.

3. For great weapon builds with GWM, are GFB and BB really not that great for higher levels? I read that they were not from the Sorcadin guide on this forum.

Thank you everyone and hope you all have a safe and relaxing day.

[kenGarff]

I am not an expert but I asked similar questions not too long ago. And generally people told me pal6/sor14 is the best over 2/18 spread. I was also told 3/17 spread isn’t very optimal usually.

I’ve also seen devotion or crown/divine souls or shadow was best. And that divine souls and shadow are both mechanically better than draconic for sorcadin.

If I’m wrong, sorry!

[PeteNutButter]

Hi. I've been lurking this forums for the last few months and finally decided to join the community to get some help.
I'd like to make a highly optimized character in Paladin/Sorcerer multiclass and I'd love to hear your advices.
My questions are

1. What oath and origin are optimal for a paladin/sorcerer from a mechanical aspect?

2. What spread works best at higher levels? My campaign will be going to level 20 at a highly accelerated rate in which all the experiences are buffed and we are constantly in battle as our DM and party loves combat.

3. For great weapon builds with GWM, are GFB and BB really not that great for higher levels? I read that they were not from the Sorcadin guide on this forum.

Thank you everyone and hope you all have a safe and relaxing day.

1. It's mostly to taste. They all have their perks. You'd be better off figuring out what you want to play and then getting the mechanics of it worked out. Devotion gets a lot of praise for it's +cha to attack rolls but it takes an action to start up, meaning it's usually not worth it in fights that don't last 3 or less rounds.

2. Paladin 6/Sorcerer x is the most common. For certain oaths, like ancients, you'll want paladin 7 (or 8 for the ASI). Paladin 11 and Paladin 2 are also popular, but less so.

3. GFB/BB is as a bonus action whenever you didn't kill or crit something is still very useful. I would definitely take it if the option were there. It only gets better at higher level as you get more d8s. If you go draconic sorcerer you get your cha on that GFB damage.

[kenGarff]

I was told for a str build, draconic wasn’t as good as divine soul or shadow on the discord chat as well because the damage boost and Hp you get from it isn’t as good as the cleric spell options of divine soul or the things shadow sorcerer provides though. Though i think I really like devotion and divine soul for the role playing idea!

[hwem]

Thank you. I am planning to take sword and board as I like being tanky. For such build, which oath sorcerous origin combination would you guys recommend as mechanically best? I was looking over the options and personally I thought oath of crown with draconic seemed to be maybe the best.

[Metamorph]

This could be helpful:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?502673-Unlimited-Blade-Works-The-Guide-to-the-Ultimate-Paladin-Sorcerer-Multiclass

[hwem]

This could be helpful:

The Sorcadin guide

Thanks! Though, I did see this..quite thoroughly. However, I thought the guide seemed a little outdated. And I was hoping to get more opinions regarding the optimal sword-and-board oath/origin combinations from others as well. I do not mean any disrespect.


1. It's mostly to taste. They all have their perks. You'd be better off figuring out what you want to play and then getting the mechanics of it worked out. Devotion gets a lot of praise for it's +cha to attack rolls but it takes an action to start up, meaning it's usually not worth it in fights that don't last 3 or less rounds.

2. Paladin 6/Sorcerer x is the most common. For certain oaths, like ancients, you'll want paladin 7 (or 8 for the ASI). Paladin 11 and Paladin 2 are also popular, but less so.

3. GFB/BB is as a bonus action whenever you didn't kill or crit something is still very useful. I would definitely take it if the option were there. It only gets better at higher level as you get more d8s. If you go draconic sorcerer you get your cha on that GFB damage.

But regarding the oath/origin for sword and board, which would you say is overall the most optimal? I am most likely going to with 6/14 with SCAG cantrips as well since I really like the aura of paladins. Thanks.

[Nidgit]

Thanks! Though, I did see this..quite thoroughly. However, I thought the guide seemed a little outdated. And I was hoping to get more opinions regarding the optimal sword-and-board oath/origin combinations from others as well. I do not mean any disrespect.

But regarding the oath/origin for sword and board, which would you say is overall the most optimal? I am most likely going to with 6/14 with SCAG cantrips as well since I really like the aura of paladins. Thanks.
Since you're only taking six levels in Paladin and there's heavy spell overlap (particularly if you go Divine Sorcerer), you're mainly just focused on the CDs.

Ancients would probably be my bottom choice here. The main reason to go Ancients is the Level 7 aura. Spells are ok but nothing special and the CDs are meh.

Conquest is only slightly better since its Level 7 aura is also a lynchpin of the subclass. One extra-accurate attack and some unique spells are nice though.

Devotion is here only for the +CHA to attack, which is made somewhat better by Quickening cantrips. You can always get some use out of this each day.

Crown has some fairly cool, tanky CDs but no new spells that make it decent for helping out others.

Redemption offers some nice spells to help you save on Sorcerer spells known, one ok social CD and one potentially fantastic CD as a reaction. There's actually a lot here to like, and a Divine Sorcerer/Redemption Paladin offers some good rp potential.

Vengeance is frontloaded to make you excellent at going full nova. Excellent unique spells that admittedly need concentration and potent CDs make you fantastic at murdering one big enemy per day.

It's hard to go wrong with Vengeance, but if you're looking to be more of a team player, Redemption and Crown both have some useful abilities.

[hwem]

Since you're only taking six levels in Paladin and there's heavy spell overlap (particularly if you go Divine Sorcerer), you're mainly just focused on the CDs.

Ancients would probably be my bottom choice here. The main reason to go Ancients is the Level 7 aura. Spells are ok but nothing special and the CDs are meh.

Conquest is only slightly better since its Level 7 aura is also a lynchpin of the subclass. One extra-accurate attack and some unique spells are nice though.

Devotion is here only for the +CHA to attack, which is made somewhat better by Quickening cantrips. You can always get some use out of this each day.

Crown has some fairly cool, tanky CDs but no new spells that make it decent for helping out others.

Redemption offers some nice spells to help you save on Sorcerer spells known, one ok social CD and one potentially fantastic CD as a reaction. There's actually a lot here to like, and a Divine Sorcerer/Redemption Paladin offers some good rp potential.

Vengeance is frontloaded to make you excellent at going full nova. Excellent unique spells that admittedly need concentration and potent CDs make you fantastic at murdering one big enemy per day.

It's hard to go wrong with Vengeance, but if you're looking to be more of a team player, Redemption and Crown both have some useful abilities.

Thanks. From the sorcadin guide, it seemed like the author and others in the replies didn't particularly like vengeance for 6/14 builds. Also which origin goes well for 6/14 in your opinion?

[Nidgit]

Thanks. From the sorcadin guide, it seemed like the author and others in the replies didn't particularly like vengeance for 6/14 builds. Also which origin goes well for 6/14 in your opinion?
Personally I think Vengeance is one of the best for 6/14 builds because it has one of the weaker Level 7 abilities. It's obviously geared towards offense which means it synergizes better with GWs but it's still more than serviceable for sword and boarders.

As for origins, Storm is the only one that's completely unhelpful. Wild Magic ranges from acceptable to fantastic depending on your DM. Draconic makes you a more effective frontliner, Divine Soul offers the best support for your party, and Shadow offers extremely potent versatility but burns through your sorcery points even faster. I'd probably rank them Wild [nice DM], Draconic, Shadow, Divine, Wild [stingy DM], Storm but it's really open to debate and depends on your playstyle.

[hwem]

Personally I think Vengeance is one of the best for 6/14 builds because it has one of the weaker Level 7 abilities. It's obviously geared towards offense which means it synergizes better with GWs but it's still more than serviceable for sword and boarders.

As for origins, Storm is the only one that's completely unhelpful. Wild Magic ranges from acceptable to fantastic depending on your DM. Draconic makes you a more effective frontliner, Divine Soul offers the best support for your party, and Shadow offers extremely potent versatility but burns through your sorcery points even faster. I'd probably rank them Wild [nice DM], Draconic, Shadow, Divine, Wild [stingy DM], Storm but it's really open to debate and depends on your playstyle.

Thanks so much. I guess Vengeance 6/Draconic 14 with a greatsword or longsword and board will be one of the best sorcadin combinations then!

[kenGarff]

Since you're only taking six levels in Paladin and there's heavy spell overlap (particularly if you go Divine Sorcerer), you're mainly just focused on the CDs.

Ancients would probably be my bottom choice here. The main reason to go Ancients is the Level 7 aura. Spells are ok but nothing special and the CDs are meh.

Conquest is only slightly better since its Level 7 aura is also a lynchpin of the subclass. One extra-accurate attack and some unique spells are nice though.

Devotion is here only for the +CHA to attack, which is made somewhat better by Quickening cantrips. You can always get some use out of this each day.

Crown has some fairly cool, tanky CDs but no new spells that make it decent for helping out others.

Redemption offers some nice spells to help you save on Sorcerer spells known, one ok social CD and one potentially fantastic CD as a reaction. There's actually a lot here to like, and a Divine Sorcerer/Redemption Paladin offers some good rp potential.

Vengeance is frontloaded to make you excellent at going full nova. Excellent unique spells that admittedly need concentration and potent CDs make you fantastic at murdering one big enemy per day.

It's hard to go wrong with Vengeance, but if you're looking to be more of a team player, Redemption and Crown both have some useful abilities.

For great weapon and S&B, which subclasses would you choose if you had to for optimal cases for overall?
Sorry hwem for stealing your topic.

[hwem]

@kengarf: No need to apologize. Your questions are what confuses me as well. I was also told Vengeance/Divine Soul combination is better than Vengeance/Draconic by a friend especially if I use a great weapon since I will eventually not need to use the cantrip too much for damage so the fire damage boost isn't as good as the cleric spell options provided by the Divine Soul origin.

[Arcangel4774]

For great weapon i like shadow as its death safeguard ability and darkness shenanigans complement the gwf playstyle.

I find s&b to be more defensively oriented and i like the buffs and control offered by cleric spells from divine soul.

Im a fan of conquest and ancients for s&b oaths, but both truly shine when going atleast 7 in paladin.

As for great weapon i like devotion and venegence. Both can fit in that 6/14 spread which most prefer.

As an aside one level of hexblade does wonders for a conquest sword and board, allowing you to focus on charisma and the fear affect.

[PeteNutButter]

For great weapon i like shadow as its death safeguard ability and darkness shenanigans complement the gwf playstyle.

I find s&b to be more defensively oriented and i like the buffs and control offered by cleric spells from divine soul.

Im a fan of conquest and ancients for s&b oaths, but both truly shine when going atleast 7 in paladin.

As for great weapon i like devotion and venegence. Both can fit in that 6/14 spread which most prefer.

As an aside one level of hexblade does wonders for a conquest sword and board, allowing you to focus on charisma and the fear affect.

This is a pretty good assessment, but I would also add Redemption paladin on the S&B side 6/14. That reaction at level 3 is potent as hell against hard hitting enemies. It hits as hard as they do. Using it on a crit is just nasty, and a great offensive boost for a defensive character. It's also a minor bonus to save a sorcerer spell known, getting hold person from your paladin side.

[hwem]

So from what I've read through your advices...
Thanks by the way.

S&B:
- Conquest, Redemption, Ancients are the best oaths but with 7 levels (6 for Redemption)
- Divine Soul is the best origin
- Use SCAG cantrips

Great weapon:
- Vengeance and Devotion are the best oaths
- Shadow is the best origin over draconic
- SCAG cantrips aren't necessary

[PeteNutButter]

So from what I've read through your advices...
Thanks by the way.

S&B:
- Conquest, Redemption, Ancients are the best oaths but with 7 levels
- Divine Soul is the best origin
- Use SCAG cantrips

Great weapon:
- Vengeance and Devotion are the best oaths
- Shadow is the best origin over draconic
- SCAG cantrips aren't necessary

*SCAG cantrips should be used with both if available for quickened bonus action attacks. Redemption paladins don't need their level 7 ability.

[hwem]

Ah, I see. Thanks!

Also, I was told by a coworker who is much more knowledgeable than I am with D&D that he really likes devotion or vengeance 6 / divine soul 14 with great weapon with or without the scag cantrips due to the versatility of the combination. I am not too sure about that one since it seems like it tries to give utility and damage in divine soul and vengeance, respectively...but I don't see too much synergy as I do with something like vengeance / shadow. I can very well be completely wrong however.

Additionally, it looked like the Sorcadin guide really liked S&B build with Crown / Draconic over all else. Is that a little outdated as of now as the best combination?

*This is all thanks to my lack of ability to mechanically play well. I have already died few times in my current campaign where I will start with a new character of level 15. Others, including my friends in both party members and DM, have told me to focus more on the combat a little more as I tend to stray off from it and not even look too much into the actual mechanical properties of combat spells too well. Sorry for my ignorance everyone.

[PeteNutButter]

Ah, I see. Thanks!

Also, I was told by a coworker who is much more knowledgeable than I am with D&D that he really likes devotion or vengeance 6 / divine soul 14 with great weapon with or without the scag cantrips due to the versatility of the combination. I am not too sure about that one since it seems like it tries to give utility and damage in divine soul and vengeance, respectively...but I don't see too much synergy as I do with something like vengeance / shadow. I can very well be completely wrong however.

Additionally, it looked like the Sorcadin guide really liked S&B build with Crown / Draconic over all else. Is that a little outdated as of now as the best combination?

*This is all thanks to my lack of ability to mechanically play well. I have already died few times in my current campaign where I will start with a new character of level 15. Others, including my friends in both party members and DM, have told me to focus more on the combat a little more as I tend to stray off from it and not even look too much into the actual mechanical properties of combat spells too well. Sorry for my ignorance everyone.

It really is to taste. Different players will feel differently based on their experience and opinions. There will be plenty of disagreements among the "experts."

Paladin/Sorcerer is already probably the strongest multiclass in the game. The only way to make it stronger would be to dip a single level in hexblade for ultimate SAD cheese. What level is this character starting at?

[Metamorph]

Then let me also thow a question in this thread:

Why no love for Pala 4/Sorc 16. I know that you will miss the 17th level metamagic from the Sorcerer, but you will have 5 feats or ASI.

The downside I would see with this is that you would not have an extra attack nor the capstone but more ASI and still still 16 sorcery points.

Am I seeing this wrong? It should still be potent this way I guess.

[hwem]

It really is to taste. Different players will feel differently based on their experience and opinions. There will be plenty of disagreements among the "experts."

Paladin/Sorcerer is already probably the strongest multiclass in the game. The only way to make it stronger would be to dip a single level in hexblade for ultimate SAD cheese. What level is this character starting at?

Ah I see. I am starting as a level 15 which is the level at which my last character died. I died way too many times in this campaign lol.

[PeteNutButter]

Then let me also thow a question in this thread:

Why no love for Pala 4/Sorc 16. I know that you will miss the 17th level metamagic from the Sorcerer, but you will have 5 feats or ASI.

The downside I would see with this is that you would not have an extra attack nor the capstone but more ASI and still still 16 sorcery points.

Am I seeing this wrong? It should still be potent this way I guess.

Doubling your offensive output through extra attack is well worth the levels, not least because aura of protection is one of the strongest features in the game at paladin 6, hiding behind extra attack.

Most people don't care much for level 20 builds when optimizing. It's about tier 2 or tier 3 because that's where most games end. So it's not what you miss out on for your 20th level, it's what you get in the next level or two that determines the build. You could call it marginal level optimization.

IMO paladin 3 is pretty weak if you don't plan on going all the way to paladin 6. The ASI at four doesn't justify paladin 3 unless you keep going. That's why people sometimes stop at Paladin 2/sorcerer x.


Ah I see. I am starting as a level 15 which is the level at which my last character died. I died way too many times in this campaign lol.

This is a rather complex gish character, starting it at level 15. If you aren't mechancially inclined with 5e, let me help you out:

Play the Redemption 6/Draconic Sorcerer 9. I recommend the Redemption so you avoid paladin 7 and start with 5th level spells. Draconic Sorcerer is simpler as it has built in damage on GFB/Fireball and just more hp. With that level spread you have both hold person and hold monster. Those are your go-to spells. The paladin sorcerer is very NOVA based. You'll want to spend most fights conserving your spell slots. Whenever the big fight happens, quicken one of those hold spells on the baddest foe out there. If they fail their save, slap them with two smites that are automatic criticals (assuming you hit with advantage). On subsequent rounds you can use your bonus action to quicken GFB or BB.

Other spells that you want to have are Shield (which you should spam, and almost never get hit), Absorb Elements (Tank breath weapons), Fireball (best AoE for your buck, really good with draconic), Haste (Best buff spell out there, but is concentration.), Counterspell (Stop big bad casters). If you go divine soul sorcerer, I'd get Healing Word to pick up downed teammates as a bonus action.

Stats can be 16, 10, 14, 8, 8, 16 for a variant human, or maybe 16, 10, 16, 8, 8, 16 as half elf. For your ASIs I'd boost cha to 20 and take warcaster. Later you can boost strength. (If you were playing this character level 1-15 I'd probably have suggested to have an 18 in both, but with level 5 sorcerer spells already a 20 cha is boss.)

This is all a simplified recommendation, and I encourage you to customize to your liking.

[kenGarff]

For S&B builds, wouldn't divine soul be typically better over draconic due to the sheer versatility it provide over GFB damage boost and some HP draconic provides? It also looked like Devotion or Crown would go really well with Divine Soul also.

[hwem]

For S&B builds, wouldn't divine soul be typically better over draconic due to the sheer versatility it provide over GFB damage boost and some HP draconic provides? It also looked like Devotion or Crown would go really well with Divine Soul also.

At this point, I think they really all work just as well as every other combinations as Sorcadin seems to be really good as a whole lol. Anyways, thanks guys for the help so far.

[Galactkaktus]

Divine soul seems to be a favorite. Exactly what makes it so attractive? Which cleric spells do you want that makes it the best origin for sorcadins?

[kenGarff]

I was thinking about shadow origin for a sorcadin and I wasn't sure if it's really as ridiculously good as the sorcadin guide says it is. Wouldn't the fact that it chews through sorcery point be rather detrimental to sorcadin?


Divine soul seems to be a favorite. Exactly what makes it so attractive? Which cleric spells do you want that makes it the best origin for sorcadins?

It seems like Divine Soul is mainly good for the sword and board builds, and not so much for GW builds mainly for the utility. As for the spells, I don't know either sorry!

[hwem]

I am deciding between the following combination for my sorcadin:

S&B:
1. Devotion / Divine Soul
2. Crown / Divine Soul
3. Crown / Draconic

GW:
1. Vengeance / Draconic
2. Vengeance / Shadow