OOTS #1127 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Conte_Vincero]

New comic is up.

Bet the next comic starts with Higylda administering some serious punishment.

EDIT: OK, well I thought I was commenting on the previous comic... And I'm wrong anyway.

[dmc91356]

Gotta love a good flank steak pun.

[brian 333]

Now that's how you perform a sneak attack!

[hroþila]

I, uh, I had kinda forgotten about Haley.

Also, these past few strips have been some of the best Elan material.

[Peelee]

So aside from the Sneak Attack, what is going on with Haley there?

[dmc91356]

So aside from the Sneak Attack, what is going on with Haley there?

Boots of speed baby! (Note the green glow on the boots.)

[leon666]

Last joke took me a second to get..
Roy's looking awfully beat up right now :/

[rooster707]

So aside from the Sneak Attack, what is going on with Haley there?

Boots of Speed?

Edit: Ninja’d.

[HUMVEE Driver]

Get those Boots of Speed!

[Derian]

New comic is up.

ARRRGH! Durnit, Giant, why do you have to keep ratcheting up the tension with every update!?

I swear, I'm about to go CRAZY with all these cliffhangers!

But other than Roy going down for good, I don't think that there's any way it can possibly get worse... unless you go and kill Mr. Scruffy too.

[titi_2001]

Hollyy ****.

[Mikemical]

Hmmm, looks like my bet on insurance might be close.

Also, a fighter getting rekt by sneak attacks, reminds me of some of my own campaigns.

[DaggerPen]

Welp, looks like either Roy didn't know about Belkar's Protection from Evil clasp, or he didn't think he could readily turn it back on vs. just KO'ing Belkar. And I was just thinking about how Elan wasn't punning during this fight, too.

[Kish]

I, uh, I had kinda forgotten about Haley.
So had Roy.

[Thokk_Smash]

Man, after all this, the shoe that drops in the memory is gonna be incredible. Both because of the lead up, and 'cause it seems that distracting Greg/Lurkon is all that'll save the Order at this rate :smallbiggrin:

[Alish]

If Roy dies, the Order is completely toast, since the Cleric is blind and everyone else is either knocked out or dominated. If the Order is completely toast, Elan definitely wonkt have an ending that would qualify as “happy”.

So I think Roy will be fine (given the circumstances). Am I missing something?

[HMS Invincible]

What was Haley doing at the beginning of the fight?

[Kish]

If Roy dies, the Order is completely toast, since the Cleric is blind and everyone else is either knocked out or dominated. If the Order is completely toast, Elan definitely wonkt have an ending that would qualify as “happy”.

So I think Roy will be fine (given the circumstances). Am I missing something?
Given that you're making an argument, apparently from the standpoint that the opposite case has been made, that a fantasy series won't abruptly end in the sixth book of seven with that book's villain slaughtering the heroes, I think you're missing something, yes, but I can't say what.

[Thokk_Smash]

Also, I'm not sure if we should be impressed at the dwarf soldier that managed to drag a chest full of coins and gems out during a cave-in, or question his motives. Probably more the former, but still, seems very convenient.

[Angband]

I came here to find out what the backstory on the troll was, but nobody had posted the link to the relevant comic.

So I found it myself.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0991.html
(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0991.html)

[brian 333]

Welp, looks like either Roy didn't know about Belkar's Protection from Evil clasp, or he didn't think he could readily turn it back on vs. just KO'ing Belkar. And I was just thinking about how Elan wasn't punning during this fight, too.

How would it help Belkar to have Roy use a Protection item? Roy doesn't need PFE and amulets generally have a range of 'self.'

[Gluteus_Maximus]

So... does knocking out Belkar release him from the domination for now? Cause I can't see this ending any other way than Roy knocking out Elan and Haley then having Minrah heal V and then they dispel the anti-life shell, only to have Belkar wake up and he throws a stake through Greg's heart... through the baby.

[Mike Havran]

Belkar did go down like a sack of potatoes, unless it's some trick on his part. He should be too durable to be taken down by a couple of sword hits.

[AutomatedTeller]

From a meta point of view, obviously everything will be ok, for some definition of OK. But holy shamoley, the order looks toast here.

I think Haley just made multiple sneak attacks with an adamantine dagger?

I am not sure where Durkon is going with his memory, but I agree, it's going to be epic.

[DaggerPen]

I came here to find out what the backstory on the troll was, but nobody had posted the link to the relevant comic.

So I found it myself.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0991.html
(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0991.html)

Oh, wow, you can see the blonde bearded dwarf going for the treasure chest in that flashback, too. The Giant knows his details.

[Sylian]

Huh, I totally forgot Haley still had a melee weapon. I wonder why she didn't attack Roy until now, was she ordered not to or did she just decide to wait?

[Kish]

So... does knocking out Belkar release him from the domination for now? Cause I can't see this ending any other way than Roy knocking out Elan and Haley then having Minrah heal V and then they dispel the anti-life shell, only to have Belkar wake up and he throws a stake through Greg's heart... through the baby.
Are you a gambling butt? 500 gold says that won't happen.

[brian 333]

So... does knocking out Belkar release him from the domination for now? Cause I can't see this ending any other way than Roy knocking out Elan and Haley then having Minrah heal V and then they dispel the anti-life shell, only to have Belkar wake up and he throws a stake through Greg's heart... through the baby.

Being KO'd does not release the victim from Domination, nor does waking from being KO'd offer a new save. It does, however, prevent Belkar from acting for the duration.

[pacovf]

I have a feeling the money was used on a True Ressurrect on baby Durkon, not papa Thundershield. I am not sure how that would affect anything here though, so we will see if I am right.

[KorvinStarmast]

Belkar did go down like a sack of potatoes, unless it's some trick on his part. He should be too durable to be taken down by a couple of sword hits. Roy PWNED Belkar back in the gladiator pits (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0748.html). It is no surprise that he can knock him out again.

PS: enjoyed this strip, there's a lot going on and we got the Sunday Funnies extra length strip so that's nice.

Thank you, Giant.

(1) My previous question about "what is Ponchella casting" is now answered.
(2) I am not sure if Roy gets any healing from the whack on Ponchella; not seeing the added green and see his wound marks in red still going.
(3) Durkon: So you gave it all to the church? Mom: Sorta. Na really. Stretching out the memory some more ...
(4) Haley's Sneak attack/defending Elan makes perfect sense.
(5) Hmm, what's Mr Scruffy going to do with Belkar?
(6) Elan's silliness turns to punning attack ... nice set up!
(7) Did Roy drop the potion that he was going to pour down V's throat?

[Darth Tom]

So, um... exactly how far is Roy likely to be from being dead at this point? It looks like he's taking an insane amount of damage in this fight.

[Sylian]

Did Roy deal non-lethal damage to Belkar? Sure seems that way.

How did Haley attack multiple times in a single round while also moving? 5-foot step?

[hroþila]

So had Roy.
I count myself lucky to not have been stabbed repeatedly, then.

[DaggerPen]

I'm partial to the idea that she went to get a resurrection for Tenrin, but when the priests were like "Are ye sure? He died wit' honor. He's safe from Hel now. If'n ye bring him back, when ye lose him again, it may not be the case" she decided against it, because she'd rather guarantee he be happy forever (even at the risk that she may never see him again if she doesn't die with honor) than have him back only to risk his immortal destination. Then she either donated it to resurrect someone who didn't die with honor (this portion of the theory originally floated by Jasdoif) or she let them keep it so that she couldn't be tempted to use it.


Did Roy deal non-lethal damage to Belkar? Sure seems that way.

I'd imagine so - no x's in his eyes. Mr. Scruffy is just sad because his person got hurt and he couldn't help.


How did Haley attack multiple times in a single round while also moving? 5-foot step?

Boots of speed, probably.

[Rogar Demonblud]

What was Haley doing at the beginning of the fight?

Sniping with her bow, until Roy cut the bowstring. Then, apparently, she did the 'stand around and drool' thing that happens to Dominate victims when they don't have an executable order. Then she got a new order.

And I think the theory on the clasp was that Roy should activate it to cut Belkar loose from the Dominate, not use it himself. But if it works like any other use activated magic device, the wielder needs to be the one to activate it.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Did Roy deal non-lethal damage to Belkar? Sure seems that way.

How did Haley attack multiple times in a single round while also moving? 5-foot step?

Boots of Speed. Which probably means she got Dominated by HPoH, as no one else on Team Hel would know about them.

[Mr_Ratatosk]

For those of you that forgot about Haley's boots, you want to look at comic 979.

I thought posting the actual comic might be useful, but the forum says I'm not chatty enough to do that yet.

[KorvinStarmast]

For those of you that forgot about Haley's boots, you want to look at comic 979.

I thought posting the actual comic might be useful, but the forum says I'm not chatty enough to do that yet.
Haley's Boots, while running from Crystal, are depicted as glowing green here.
(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0979.html)

[Lordofhorses]

I think that Mr. Scruffy will paw at the clasp and that will activate it for Belkar.

[Sylian]

Boots of Speed.
Boots of speed, probably.If this were 3.0, I would accept that answer. In 3.5, Haste no longer grants an extra standard action, and it would thus not normally be possible to move and still full-attack, so I don't accept this answer. She could have some ability (like Pounce) that lets her charge and full-attack, but that seems highly unlikely. Currently, the most likely scenario seems to be 5-foot step.


I'd imagine so - no x's in his eyes.He also doesn't seem to have any wounds whatsoever.


For those of you that forgot about Haley's boots, you want to look at comic 979.I didn't forget about them, it's pretty clear that she's using them anyway, the problem with moving and full-attacking in the same round still remains though. 5-foot step seems like the current most likely explanation.

[warmachine]

Belkar's statement of "Protect V." is weird. Belkar has no problem letting his colleagues die but he's not going to think protecting V includes stopping healing spells. Indeed, letting V die is the opposite of protecting him. Of course, he's been dominated to prevent V being healed but why would the orders bother including stating the opposite of his orders?

It could be Belkar does believe he's protecting V from dangerous healing spells but that would require the vampire's domination to deviate from standard rules. Dominate controls someone's actions, not believing stupid ideas.

[TuringTest]

Is this two comic updates in a row? It looks like two comic updates in a row.

[2D8HP]

"spouting general marketing copy"!

:eek:

Truly on the side of Evil!

[Jubal_Barca]

Whilst I appreciate that we're basically ramping up to find out the plot twist from Durkon's memory, I partly feel really sad for Roy that his (actually pretty decent as far as I can tell) tactics for this fight seem to have been scuppered by a mass of really badly failed saves against domination. I mean, also because he's getting a lot muchly stabbed. Or possibly shanked, or shivved. Something along those lines. But I do like it when Roy being smart actually works out well. People who know D&D rules better - in the circumstances, are there any obvious tactical decisions that Roy or the Order generally really screwed up on here?

I think to affect anything the plot twist has to be something that will cause the Vampires to act differently - like, if there's the imminent threat of someone pulling off a big shiny spell which all that money pre-paid for and which would force Vampkon to run out of the room and go elsewhere to stop it? So I agree with guesses along that line at the moment...

[Kish]

Boots of speed, probably.

Boots of Speed. Which probably means she got Dominated by HPoH, as no one else on Team Hel would know about them.
"Attack Roy in your most effective way" would take care of that last part.

However, if she moved more than five feet in the round, it wouldn't matter. Haste lets her add another attack to her full attack action; it doesn't let her full attack on a round where she also took a move action.

(Breakdown for non-3.5-D&D players: In one round, you get: One free action, if applicable. One swift or immediate action, if applicable. Either one full-round action, or one standard action and one move action.

The most straightforward example of a swift action is a quickened spell. A single-classed fighter will rarely have swift or immediate actions. An immediate action is like a swift action except that you can take it when it's not your turn; you still only get one of either each round.

Physically attacking more than once in a round requires a full attack, which is a full-round action. Haste adds one attack to your full attack. It will not let you make more than one attack without using a full-round action.

Attacking once in a round is a standard action. Moving up to your standard speed (30 feet for Vaarsuvius, 20 feet for Durkon, unknowable for Roy without knowing for sure what kind of armor he's wearing and get the Class and Level Numbers Uber Alles thread out of my face) is a move action. You can use a standard action to take a second move action, in effect voluntarily downgrading that action because you really want to move twice and not attack.

If you do not otherwise move in the round, taking one five-foot step is a free action.)

[Resileaf]

The giant with two quick updates! Ramping up the tension and drama at a quick pace!
At this rate, I'm mostly certain that Roy will not win this fight. He'll be overwhelmed and will slump to his knees, forced to give up because he's nearing negative HP. The Order's victory will come from within with Durkon's memory for sure.

[Jay R]

If Roy dies, the Order is completely toast, since the Cleric is blind and everyone else is either knocked out or dominated. If the Order is completely toast, Elan definitely wonkt have an ending that would qualify as “happy”.

So I think Roy will be fine (given the circumstances). Am I missing something?

Well, he won't die (permanently, at least). But there's a wide, wide set of possibilities between permanently dead and fine.

[godsflunky]

We've seen how the team works without Roy around. Now, it seems, we're seeing how well Roy works without the team.


ETA:

Wait.

There's one last card Roy hasn't played yet, which definitely ties in with Durkon's Memory Theater: he hasn't yet told Durkon that the exile was lifted. I foresee Roy shouting this with his last breath.

[DaggerPen]

Belkar's statement of "Protect V." is weird. Belkar has no problem letting his colleagues die but he's not going to think protecting V includes stopping healing spells. Indeed, letting V die is the opposite of protecting him. Of course, he's been dominated to prevent V being healed but why would the orders bother including stating the opposite of his orders?

It could be Belkar does believe he's protecting V from dangerous healing spells but that would require the vampire's domination to deviate from standard rules. Dominate controls someone's actions, not believing stupid ideas.

I think it's more that The Giant tends to show Dominated people as having constructed some type of internal justification for their own actions, with the Domination being broken when they're ordered to do something against their nature, e.g. when they can't construct an internal justification for it. Thanh way back when attacked Haley because he was able to justify it as upholding the law by taking down a thief. Haley and Elan are able to justify it as protecting Durkon from Roy's betrayal. (Granted, Elan explicitly refers to being Dominated, but. It's Elan.)

What's interesting to me is that Belkar, who previously gleefully turned on his allies with nothing more than a Charm Person and instructions to kill them and keep their items for himself, is now justifying this to himself as protecting V from the 'enemy' forces, rather than just because he can.

[Dragonus45]

If this were 3.0, I would accept that answer. In 3.5, Haste no longer grants an extra standard action, and it would thus not normally be possible to move and still full-attack, so I don't accept this answer. She could have some ability (like Pounce) that lets her charge and full-attack, but that seems highly unlikely. Currently, the most likely scenario seems to be 5-foot step.

He also doesn't seem to have any wounds whatsoever.

I didn't forget about them, it's pretty clear that she's using them anyway, the problem with moving and full-attacking in the same round still remains though. 5-foot step seems like the current most likely explanation.

Or, its just a nifty visual way of representing the full attack bonus attack from haste.

[warmachine]

Durkon mother's story is unusual so far. Soldiers know they could be crippled and be unable to work. And her pension is clearly poor. I'd have expected her to keep most of the loot as an early retirement pension, knowing few would begrudge her it.


Also, a Cleric who hasn't prepared Remove Blindness/Deafness is an idiot.

[Coolio Wolfus]

Hmm...

After the troll...after yer Pa passed on.
After I got hurt...
Most interesting.

[fishhead202]

Really stretching out the reveal...... and I still have zero idea how any reveal will have any actual concequence.

Durkon: "Mom rezzed me instead of dad!"
Greg: "Cool, I'm gonna finish killing everyone now"

[Kish]

Also, a Cleric who hasn't prepared Remove Blindness/Deafness is an idiot.
Really? I think you're the only person I've ever met whose clerics always keep one of their level 3 spell slots dedicated to that spell.

(What my clerics would generally prepare in that slot instead--Magic Circle against Evil--is something I suspect Minrah wishes she had rather more.)

[DaOldeWolf]

Greg is so disgusting. Using the baby as a comunal shield. I cant wait for him to get his comeuppance. I hope Ponchula pays as well. :smallyuk:

At this point, Roy is fighting almost fighting the whole order by himself. Things are looking bad. :smallfrown:

[theAui]

If I may give a guess... Next in the dream Durkons mom goes to the priests but they tell her they cant raise her husband because the lock of hair she carries must have been attached to his body at the time of death. Instead, she asks them to cast a contingency true resurection for her son. If he is brought to a certain hall. Casting time is ten minutes, it took Durkon nine of them to wash dishes. The rest is some rules bending / rule of cool and Durkon gets revived anyways. Say goodbye to Greg every moment now.

[TuringTest]

I came here to find out what the backstory on the troll was, but nobody had posted the link to the relevant comic.

So I found it myself.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0991.html
(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0991.html)

Now that you've linked to it, I had never noticed before that dwarven surnames are matrilineal. Or is it that dwarven females take the surname of their husbands?

[fishhead202]

If I may give a guess... Next in the dream Durkons mom goes to the priests but they tell her they cant raise her husband because the lock of hair she carries must have been attached to his body at the time of death. Instead, she asks them to cast a contingency true resurection for her son. If he is brought to a certain hall. Casting time is ten minutes, it took Durkon nine of them to wash dishes. The rest is some rules bending / rule of cool and Durkon gets revived anyways. Say goodbye to Greg every moment now.

Now that would be interesting....... "Must be in church of Thor" or somesuch.

[Resileaf]

If I may give a guess... Next in the dream Durkons mom goes to the priests but they tell her they cant raise her husband because the lock of hair she carries must have been attached to his body at the time of death. Instead, she asks them to cast a contingency true resurection for her son. If he is brought to a certain hall. Casting time is ten minutes, it took Durkon nine of them to wash dishes. The rest is some rules bending / rule of cool and Durkon gets revived anyways. Say goodbye to Greg every moment now.

Greg was in the hall way longer than ten minutes before the battle started and contingency is an arcane spell that only sorcerers and wizards can cast.

[Giggling Ghast]

There's only one way I can see out of this: Durkon's final memory is so shocking that it disrupts Durkula's concentration.

I'm not 100 per cent on this, but I think once a vampire's domination is broken, he can't immediately use it again on the same subject. That would let Haley and Elan tend to Roy and Vaarsuvius. The baby shield makes things tricky, though.

[Elenna]

I, uh, I had kinda forgotten about Haley.

Also, these past few strips have been some of the best Elan material.

Yeah, uh, I kind of forgot about Haley too. Apparently Roy did too. Obviously a bad mistake. :smalleek:


Really stretching out the reveal...... and I still have zero idea how any reveal will have any actual concequence.

Durkon: "Mom rezzed me instead of dad!"
Greg: "Cool, I'm gonna finish killing everyone now"

Yeah, that's my biggest issue with the most prominent theories right now - I have no idea how a memory of someone, regardless of who, being resurrected will actually help them here.

[Leirus]

So for the non D&D savvy among us (me!). How far must be Roy from being KO'd (approximately)?
The only way out I see at this point is the memory about to be unleashed. I wonder what else could I be missing.

[Mike Havran]

Roy PWNED Belkar back in the gladiator pits (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0748.html). It is no surprise that he can knock him out again.
Yeah, that was even more ridiculous, but I supposed it was just for sake of commedy. I wonder now if Belkar has some weakness to Roy/greatswords specifically, since he gets one-shotted like that.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Depending on who much damage Roy did, there was probably a save for being Stunned. IMS, that's a WILL save, which we know Belkar is not good at.

[Kish]

So for the non D&D savvy among us (me!). How far must be Roy from being KO'd (approximately)?
Unknowable; too much is dependent on extremely variable dice rolls and information we don't have.

[Resileaf]

So for the non D&D savvy among us (me!). How far must be Roy from being KO'd (approximately)?
The only way out I see at this point is the memory about to be unleashed. I wonder what else could I be missing.
Considering the many wounds Roy has on his body and the couple of levels he got drained, he can't be very healthy anymore. He's got one or two rounds of HP in him at this rate.

Yeah, that was even more ridiculous, but I supposed it was just for sake of commedy. I wonder now if Belkar has some weakness to Roy/greatswords specifically, since he gets one-shotted like that.
Are there feats that can knock out someone for a short period of time? Or perhaps massive damage rules applying to non-lethal damage?

[Rogar Demonblud]

If I may give a guess... Next in the dream Durkon's mom goes to the priests but they tell her they cant raise her husband because the lock of hair she carries must have been attached to his body at the time of death. Instead, she asks them to cast a contingency true resurrection for her son. If he is brought to a certain hall. Casting time is ten minutes, it took Durkon nine of them to wash dishes. The rest is some rules bending / rule of cool and Durkon gets revived anyways. Say goodbye to Greg every moment now.

A few problems there. The amount of money mentioned is the cost for True Resurrection, which means no body parts are needed at all. There would be no reason to have the spell require him to be brought to some random feasting hall instead of the temple. Contingency is an arcane spell, so no clerics can cast it, and a contingent resurrection would be Epic level magic. And a vampire (any undead, actually) needs to be destroyed before you can start the resurrection process.

[Derian]

If Roy dies, the Order is completely toast, since the Cleric is blind and everyone else is either knocked out or dominated. If the Order is completely toast, Elan definitely wonkt have an ending that would qualify as “happy”.

So I think Roy will be fine (given the circumstances). Am I missing something?


Oh, we know it's gonna turn out as a happy ending.

...the question being how it's going to get there.

[Sylian]

If Roy dies, the Order is completely toast, since the Cleric is blind and everyone else is either knocked out or dominated. If the Order is completely toast, Elan definitely wonkt have an ending that would qualify as “happy”.

So I think Roy will be fine (given the circumstances). Am I missing something?He probably won't die at this point, though he could suffer some other loss, perhaps (losing an arm, an eye, or a magical item), so there's still some tension (we also don't know how they'll turn this around). Normally, losing a limb would not be that big of a deal, since Durkon can cast Regenerate, but Durkon is currently dead so it might take a while until he'll get his limb back.

Not that I think he's very likely to lose a limb, but it could happen.

[dps]

Being KO'd does not release the victim from Domination, nor does waking from being KO'd offer a new save. It does, however, prevent Belkar from acting for the duration.

OTOH, he doesn't have swirly eyes anymore, so maybe The Giant is house ruling it? Though I like the theory that Mr. Scruffy is going to activate Belkar's Protection from evil item better.

[TuringTest]

Man, after all this, the shoe that drops in the memory is gonna be incredible. Both because of the lead up, and 'cause it seems that distracting Greg/Lurkon is all that'll save the Order at this rate :smallbiggrin:



I am not sure where Durkon is going with his memory, but I agree, it's going to be epic.

Whilst I appreciate that we're basically ramping up to find out the plot twist from Durkon's memory...

I think to affect anything the plot twist has to be something that will cause the Vampires to act differently - like, if there's the imminent threat of someone pulling off a big shiny spell which all that money pre-paid for and which would force Vampkon to run out of the room and go elsewhere to stop it? So I agree with guesses along that line at the moment...


Actually... I'd bet on the memory being *subtle* (which may prove to be epic in its own way), i.e. not as much a big reveal on itself, but instead having a great effect in the battle by causing Greg to make a huge miscalculation, as Jubal_Barca said.

Remember that Durkon's move is based on discovering Greg's weak spot, of not being able to make obvious connections between two related memories. So, this memory will probably look underwhelming to Greg, who will be left wondering why Durkon brought it back as some sort of attack.

Therefore, Greg will ignore the memory as promised, together with any information in it, and will fail to protect himself against any apparent menace brought by the memory.

But then, he will BE bitten in the ass by something that appears in the memory, and which would have been obvious and easy to avoid to anyone making the connection between both memories. :smallamused:


And now I wonder... how far away from Ma Thundershield's home was that other town with a collapsed cave... Maybe this Temple is in that town, and they built the Banket hall of the temple right besides the cave... with a fire troll buried beneath it...? :smallbiggrin::smallwink:

[KorvinStarmast]

I only have the d20 SRD info for 3.5e. Can an animal companion trigger a magical item for its ranger?

[WolvesbaneIII]

as a meat guy, the flank steak pun got me good. I'm stil smiling about it, as I chortle.

[oonker]

I'll make the same comment I made in the #1126 topic:

"Great strip!. I thought I'd feel a little more relieved when 1126 came out, but BOY was I wrong."

Feel free to change the "1126" by "1127".

[brian 333]

I only have the d20 SRD info for 3.5e. Can an animal companion trigger a magical item for its ranger?

Nope. If Mr. Scruffy can activate an amulet, the spell would affect him rather than Belkar.

[greenfunkman]

Wowee great strip! Hold it together Roy, there's an angry momma cleric straining to break free - she'll never let Ponchella eat Kudzu!

[Mikemical]

If I may give a guess... Next in the dream Durkons mom goes to the priests but they tell her they cant raise her husband because the lock of hair she carries must have been attached to his body at the time of death. Instead, she asks them to cast a contingency true resurection for her son. If he is brought to a certain hall. Casting time is ten minutes, it took Durkon nine of them to wash dishes. The rest is some rules bending / rule of cool and Durkon gets revived anyways. Say goodbye to Greg every moment now.

I think the rules say a Vampire has to be dead to be resurrected. As in, he has to be well and truly dead, not undead.

[Baelzar]

Is the fourth "sklrt!" from Haley's fourth attack, or from Elan's attack? Because Haley shouldn't have a fourth attack.

Edit: She shouldn't even get 2 attacks moving that far, Boots of Speed or otherwise.

Edit 2: Roy should've gotten at least one AoO, unless she's Tumbling, in which case she can't attack.

[TheTinyMan]

I'm calling it now, the purpose of the flashback is to get the HPoH to mumble something so against someone's nature that they get additional saves against the Domination effect (with an additional circumstance bonus of "dramatic reveal!")

I'm guessing that it's going to be Hilgya. Who will finally pass her bonus save, after failing so many. Something along the lines of him mumbling out loud, "any parent who protects their child like this instead of just kills them is a fool." Then Hilgya breaks from the Dominate (thanks, dramatic reveal circumstance bonus!), then she casts an area-dispel, then maybe a Mass Cure Moderate Wounds or something, then suddenly the tactical situation is completely different.

Probably after Roy is downed.

[Snails]

Really? I think you're the only person I've ever met whose clerics always keep one of their level 3 spell slots dedicated to that spell.

(What my clerics would generally prepare in that slot instead--Magic Circle against Evil--is something I suspect Minrah wishes she had rather more.)

Agreed. There are certain spells that are astoundingly valuable when that rare emergency arises. So you get a scroll. But, yes, the last time I had a divine caster as a PC I spent the coin for a potion of cure blindness, on top of having the scroll for the generic spell. No, I would never prepare that spell.

IME, circa level 9, the party will encounter something nasty like Magic Jar or vampire or Dominate Person casting sorceror or a Charm spammer. Then the party figures out the hard way that a scroll of Magic Circle and a Wand of Prot. Evil is vastly cheaper than paying for a Raise Dead or two.

The Order really does not have these lessons figured out.

[Fyraltari]

I knew he was forgetting Haley!

Welp, looks like either Roy didn't know about Belkar's Protection from Evil clasp, or he didn't think he could readily turn it back on vs. just KO'ing Belkar. And I was just thinking about how Elan wasn't punning during this fight, too.
He doesn't. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1104.html)

Also, I'm not sure if we should be impressed at the dwarf soldier that managed to drag a chest full of coins and gems out during a cave-in, or question his motives. Probably more the former, but still, seems very convenient.
I wonder whether there is a reason for that gold to have been there or if this is just another "monster=look" joke like Haley getting money from cleaning showers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1029.html).

Oh, wow, you can see the blonde bearded dwarf going for the treasure chest in that flashback, too. The Giant knows his details.
Oh, nice catch!

I count myself lucky to not have been stabbed repeatedly, then.
It's the little things in life...

Durkon mother's story is unusual so far. Soldiers know they could be crippled and be unable to work. And her pension is clearly poor. I'd have expected her to keep most of the loot as an early retirement pension, knowing few would begrudge her it.
Well she didn't really give it away apparently.

Also, a Cleric who hasn't prepared Remove Blindness/Deafness is an idiot.
Ah yes, in case the starlight blinded her, who doesn't prepare for that?

So for the non D&D savvy among us (me!). How far must be Roy from being KO'd (approximately)?
As an expert* I estimate him being exactly one plot away from unconsciousness.

The only way out I see at this point is the memory about to be unleashed. I wonder what else could I be missing.
Sounds likely.

Actually... I'd bet on the memory being *subtle* (which may prove to be epic in its own way), i.e. not as much a big reveal on itself, but instead having a great effect in the battle by causing Greg to make a huge miscalculation, as Jubal_Barca said.

Remember that Durkon's move is based on discovering Greg's weak spot, of not being able to make obvious connections between two related memories. So, this memory will probably look underwhelming to Greg, who will be left wondering why Durkon brought it back as some sort of attack.

Therefore, Greg will ignore the memory as promised, together with any information in it, and will fail to protect himself against any apparent menace brought by the memory.

But then, he will BE bitten in the ass by something that appears in the memory, and which would have been obvious and easy to avoid to anyone making the connection between both memories. :smallamused:
If Durkon wanted Durkon* not to act in any knowledge Durkon has, he would not be volunteering that knowledge to Durkon*. What's the point? He's not the kind of guy to take risk just so he could take a potshot at his ennemy later on. This has to be something that would make Durkon* do something.



Okay two things:
1) Sigdi's flashback is not in crayons. I guess that is supposed toindicate that this is 100% what happened but I can't stop myself from seeing that has proof that Sigdi has one level of Bard and casted Summon Plot Exposition (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0013.html).
2) I bet one Internet that Sigdi did not purchase a True Resurrection for anyone. Who's following?

*which I am not.

[Sylian]

Then the party figures out the hard way that a scroll of Magic Circle and a Wand of Prot. Evil is vastly cheaper than paying for a Raise Dead or two.

The Order really does not have these lessons figured out.Maybe Haley actually has a scroll of Magic Circle against Evil, but why use it when they're already protected by Protection from Law?

It's a bit strange Belkar didn't activate his ring before being dominated, but it's fairly plausible that he didn't think of it in time.

[Snails]

OTOH, he doesn't have swirly eyes anymore, so maybe The Giant is house ruling it? Though I like the theory that Mr. Scruffy is going to activate Belkar's Protection from evil item better.

It would be in keeping with The Giant's style to houserule that knocking someone unconscious knocks the influence of the spell out of them. It is an idea that makes perfect sense within a visual medium like an online comic.

It is only those of us who remember the text of Dominate Person who might consider objecting. No one else would think it odd at all.

We will find our answer when Belkar wakes up and his eyes swirl or do not swirl.

[Resileaf]

It would be in keeping with The Giant's style to houserule that knocking someone unconscious knocks the influence of the spell out of them. It is an idea that makes perfect sense within a visual medium like an online comic.

It is only those of us who remember the text of Dominate Person who might consider objecting. No one else would think it odd at all.

We will find our answer when Belkar wakes up and his eyes swirl or do not swirl.

Thahn remained dominated after being knocked out by Haley during the rebellion arc. She had to fool him into doing something against his nature to snap him out of it.

[LtPowers]

Maybe this Temple is in that town, and they built the Banket hall of the temple right besides the cave... with a fire troll buried beneath it...? :smallbiggrin::smallwink:

Good thinking, but this is the same town Durkon grew up in. That's why the clerics knew of Sigdi, and how the vampire was able to use Durkon's memories to find a suitable redoubt.


Powers &8^]

[Snails]

There are a thousand ways that a memory might influence Greg's future strategy. But what could possibly have a short term affect? It would almost have to be something Greg genuinely cares about -- information that matters to Greg for personal reasons more than it mattered to Durkon at the time. But what could that be? We do not exactly have a great scouting report on what matters to Greg more than being a tool of Hel.

The "easiest" way out of this is the memory is so shocking that it blasts away both Greg's concentration and Hilgya's domination. We can see at least the potential for having Hilgya within the antilife shell turning out to be a lethal tactical error.

Something completely cray-cray like "I had to resurrect both you and your twin sister" wouldn't work. Greg would be shocked but he would not particularly care.

[micerang]

Agreed. Tumbling is part of a move action, so Haley could still get one attack if she's tumbling, but she's clearly moving more than 5 feet to get to Roy, in addition to moving from behind him to in front of him. My question is, are the vampires ordering the dominated characters to engage in banter with the PCs?


Is the fourth "sklrt!" from Haley's fourth attack, or from Elan's attack? Because Haley shouldn't have a fourth attack.

Edit: She shouldn't even get 2 attacks moving that far, Boots of Speed or otherwise.

Edit 2: Roy should've gotten at least one AoO, unless she's Tumbling, in which case she can't attack.

[fishhead202]

The "easiest" way out of this is the memory is so shocking that it blasts away both Greg's concentration and Hilgya's domination. We can see at least the potential for having Hilgya within the antilife shell turning out to be a lethal tactical error.

This memory started before everything well to Hel though, right? That is, Durkon wouldn't have known about the domination when storytime began.

[Goblin_Priest]

Maybe Haley actually has a scroll of Magic Circle against Evil, but why use it when they're already protected by Protection from Law?

It's a bit strange Belkar didn't activate his ring before being dominated, but it's fairly plausible that he didn't think of it in time.

Nothing strange if he didn't get to act, in the initiative order, between the vampire that dismissed the protection from law and the vampire that used his domination gaze on him.

[Turin_19]

Nope. If Mr. Scruffy can activate an amulet, the spell would affect him rather than Belkar.

But it’s a clasp. I feel that Belkar activates it in his chest, but it’s something he’s wearing underneath his clothes.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I'm calling it now, the purpose of the flashback is to get the HPoH to mumble something so against someone's nature that they get additional saves against the Domination effect (with an additional circumstance bonus of "dramatic reveal!")

I'm guessing that it's going to be Hilgya. Who will finally pass her bonus save, after failing so many. Something along the lines of him mumbling out loud, "any parent who protects their child like this instead of just kills them is a fool." Then Hilgya breaks from the Dominate (thanks, dramatic reveal circumstance bonus!), then she casts an area-dispel, then maybe a Mass Cure Moderate Wounds or something, then suddenly the tactical situation is completely different.

Probably after Roy is downed.

Doesn't matter. Only orders matter. For the rest, Team Hel could dance around singing rude songs about Loki while pouring water on fires and Hilgya will just stand around drooling.

[theAui]

Agreed. There are certain spells that are astoundingly valuable when that rare emergency arises. So you get a scroll. But, yes, the last time I had a divine caster as a PC I spent the coin for a potion of cure blindness, on top of having the scroll for the generic spell. No, I would never prepare that spell.

IME, circa level 9, the party will encounter something nasty like Magic Jar or vampire or Dominate Person casting sorceror or a Charm spammer. Then the party figures out the hard way that a scroll of Magic Circle and a Wand of Prot. Evil is vastly cheaper than paying for a Raise Dead or two.

The Order really does not have these lessons figured out.

I cant SEE a problem with buying a scroll of cure blindness :D

[Evil_Lamp_6]

The thing that is bothering me the most about the True Rez being for Durkon is Panel 18. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0991.html)

[Rogar Demonblud]

As long as it's written in Braille and you took that as one of your bonus languages. Or would that fall under Decipher Script? It's not really a language, just a way of writing.

[Ironsmith]

So, interesting observation... Sigdi doesn't seem all that shocked at how much wealth was suddenly placed into her hands... er, hand. Is it possible she's faced a decision like this before?

Not that we'd ever get to see it. Too narratively messy for her to go on and on about things that far back. And it could just be that she's too busy trying to get over her husband's death to have much of a reaction to suddenly being wealthier than an adventurer twice her level.

[Sylian]

Nothing strange if he didn't get to act, in the initiative order, between the vampire that dismissed the protection from law and the vampire that used his domination gaze on him.Didn't all of the vampires cast (Greater) Dispel Magic before they started dominating? Though I suppose it's possible that Belkar did his round off-screen before his protection was dispelled.

[fibonacciseries]

If this were 3.0, I would accept that answer. In 3.5, Haste no longer grants an extra standard action, and it would thus not normally be possible to move and still full-attack, so I don't accept this answer. She could have some ability (like Pounce) that lets her charge and full-attack, but that seems highly unlikely. Currently, the most likely scenario seems to be 5-foot step.

He also doesn't seem to have any wounds whatsoever.

I didn't forget about them, it's pretty clear that she's using them anyway, the problem with moving and full-attacking in the same round still remains though. 5-foot step seems like the current most likely explanation.

Well, we know that she had the boots (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html) before the upgrade to 3.5, so it's possible that they're grandfathered in using 3.0 Haste.

[Sylian]

Well, we know that she [[http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html had the boots]] before the upgrade to 3.5, so it's possible that they're grandfathered in using 3.0 Haste.Could be, I suppose that's the currently most likely scenario.

[Resileaf]

Well, we know that she had the boots (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html) before the upgrade to 3.5, so it's possible that they're grandfathered in using 3.0 Haste.

:haley:"They were, like, lime green..."
Looks at the color of the aura on the boots of speed.
Mind=blown

[Evil_Lamp_6]

:haley:"They were, like, lime green..."
Looks at the color of the aura on the boots of speed.
Mind=blown
She did end up getting them dyed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html) at least.

[Kashem]

- Dwarf guy: DUDE, your party was getting slaughtered, and you decided you had time to GRAB THE LOOT!?

- Looking back at 991, it stretches belief that, upon seeing THAT monster, people would report a "Troll problem" rather than a "FRIGGIN' DRAGON TROLL PROBLEM".

- Haley probably shouldn't have been brought into the fight. The risk of even having her present was a bad risk to take in the beginning.

- Does anybody else have an issue with how long Roy is tanking all of this damage? He's been fighting alone for like 3-5 rounds now, and his priority has astoundingly remained "Heal V", as opposed to "Undominate Elan, Haley, Belkar" until this panel. Concussing Belkar into a coma is a good move, but why didn't he do that to Elan a long time ago if he has that kind of power? The little stabs Elan is landing are going to build up on him.

- Why in the WORLD would they blind Minrah? That just makes her immune to getting Dominated.

- There must be some additional part of the plan where V acts as a trump card, other than just dispel, or there would be no good reason for Roy to focus on V so hard as opposed to dealing with the larger problems.

[Evil_Lamp_6]

- Looking back at 991, it stretches belief that, upon seeing THAT monster, people would report a "Troll problem" rather than a "FRIGGIN' DRAGON TROLL PROBLEM".
I could understand a dwarven village commoner not knowing or caring about the difference between a normal troll and a half-dragon/troll thing.

[xacrom]

Am I totally off base here to think that Durkon is actually Tenrin? That'd be enough to shock me if I was Durkula.

[Evil_Lamp_6]

Am I totally off base here to think that Durkon is actually Tenrin? That'd be enough to shock me if I was Durkula.
Would that even be possible? If so, how?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Roy’s mounting frustration with Elan suddenly turning to shock with Haley’s reappearance makes this strip golden. Also, I’m dying with frustration here at the slow-rolling of the memory. :smalltongue: Finally, I’m surprised that Belkar being knocked out hasn’t led to more credulous “the prophecy is being fulfilled” comments on here. :smallbiggrin:

[xacrom]

Would that even be possible? If so, how?

*TIN HAT ON*

More of a gut feeling from rereading the flashback. I don't know what 3.5 sorta stuff could support it. But it's mostly 1) the lack of his body, 2) the insistence that Durkon not ask Sigdi about what happened to his "dad" despite the admittedly "normal" adventurer story (even as pointed out by young-Durkon) 3) the remarkable physical resemblance even in flashback and 4) the notion that Durkon might only put things together by looking back on a memory that didn't make sense before. In fact, perhaps he knows already that the original "explanation" by his mom made no sense, but now he expects it will in the same way his other memories only "made sense" now that he reflects.

So my guess is she says something that didn't make sense the first time, but will now. Again, total tinfoil hat theory with the intention of what would ACTUALLY be shocking enough to even an undead vampire of Hel.

[Fish]

- Why in the WORLD would they blind Minrah? That just makes her immune to getting Dominated.
It may have been the best spell that Ponchella had prepared prior to become vampirized. Do we know if any of the vampire clerics prepared spells after being vampirized?

[Lordofhorses]

But it’s a clasp. I feel that Belkar activates it in his chest, but it’s something he’s wearing underneath his clothes.

Plus in 3.5 animal companions have the share spell rule so as long as they are within 5 feet of each other they both benefit from the effects of the spell.

[ChamHasNoRoom]

Has it been pointed out that Durkon died specifically to prevent this exact scenario from happening?

[Evil_Lamp_6]

Again, total tinfoil hat theory with the intention of what would ACTUALLY be shocking enough to even an undead vampire of Hel.
I get why that would be shocking to Durkon, but why would it be shocking to the HPoH? Or why would he even really care? I just don't see how that could be something that has an affect on the immediate situation. I like the theory though. Any good 3.5 rules people out there to support it?

[Jay R]

But, yes, the last time I had a divine caster as a PC I spent the coin for a potion of cure blindness, on top of having the scroll for the generic spell.
I cant SEE a problem with buying a scroll of cure blindness :D


As long as it's written in Braille and you took that as one of your bonus languages. Or would that fall under Decipher Script? It's not really a language, just a way of writing.

Obviously, the potion was to remove blindness for himself, and the scroll for the generic spell was to cure others, or to remove deafness. I thought it was a carefully thought-out pair of items.

[Rogar Demonblud]

It may have been the best spell that Ponchella had prepared prior to become vampirized. Do we know if any of the vampire clerics prepared spells after being vampirized?

They've had a couple of days to do so. Including a refresh apparently right after the fight outside the temple of Thor.


Has it been pointed out that Durkon died specifically to prevent this exact scenario from happening?

Surprisingly, no. No, it has not.

[brian 333]

As a native born Southerner, the idea of Deep Friend Mushrooms intrigues me.

Is this a reference to the very loveable Myconids?

(I don't know how many times I read that typo as Fried!)

[Evil_Lamp_6]

Just out of curiosity, what other 3.5ish spells have a material component of 25k GP? True Resurrection is the obvious one, but what about the more obscure options?

[Kish]

- Haley probably shouldn't have been brought into the fight. The risk of even having her present was a bad risk to take in the beginning.

- Does anybody else have an issue with how long Roy is tanking all of this damage? He's been fighting alone for like 3-5 rounds now, and his priority has astoundingly remained "Heal V", as opposed to "Undominate Elan, Haley, Belkar" until this panel. Concussing Belkar into a coma is a good move, but why didn't he do that to Elan a long time ago if he has that kind of power? The little stabs Elan is landing are going to build up on him.
[...]
- There must be some additional part of the plan where V acts as a trump card, other than just dispel, or there would be no good reason for Roy to focus on V so hard as opposed to dealing with the larger problems.
By "undominate" you mean "knock unconscious"?

You seem to be arguing that Roy alone should be able to deal with Greg and three other vampires after knocking out all his own allies. So my question for you is: How? Suppose you had exactly the situation you're arguing Roy should have been pushing for. Elan, Haley, Belkar, and Vaarsuvius are unconscious; if something somehow revived Elan, Haley, and/or Belkar they would still be dominated. There are two more vampires than are still around in 1127 as it stands, because Roy didn't use his actions attacking them. Greg is in an anti-life shell with a dwarf baby shield which Roy is unwilling to kill.

How does Roy win from there?

[Calmen1]

Belkar's statement of "Protect V." is weird. Belkar has no problem letting his colleagues die but he's not going to think protecting V includes stopping healing spells. Indeed, letting V die is the opposite of protecting him.

Not quite. Belkar just made a deep statement about some deep guilt he feels about Durkon death, some sort of survivor guilt. Also: he does like V, even kissed him/her once.

[Calmen1]

- Does anybody else have an issue with how long Roy is tanking all of this damage? He's been fighting alone for like 3-5 rounds now, and his priority has astoundingly remained "Heal V", as opposed to "Undominate Elan, Haley, Belkar" until this panel. Concussing Belkar into a coma is a good move, but why didn't he do that to Elan a long time ago if he has that kind of power? The little stabs Elan is landing are going to build up on him.

Roy has some sort of regeneration/cure effect from his sword. It can even recover drained lvls.

[Calmen1]

I think V is out for good or even if he/she gets up, she won´t be the decisive figure of this battle. Roy may drink that potion, try to knock out another PC and so on. But it seems really clear that the solution will be Hylgia snapping out of the domination, probably with a connection with the memories.

But, as I said in the previous thread: the whole point of the Tenrir-Sigdi-Durkon story is that it is a very well crafted narrative mirror of the Durkon-Hylgia-Kudzu situation. Tenrir wasn´t ressurected because he died with honor. So did Durkon, who even was HAPPY about being killed by Malack. Both where unware they had a child. Tenrir chose to stay in Valhala. Durkon won´t. That´s the whole point of this arc... and it is an amazing storytelling. I mean F*CKING AMAZING STORYTELLING.

[ThePhantasm]

I think V is out for good or even if he/she gets up, she won´t be the decisive figure of this battle. Roy may drink that potion, try to knock out another PC and so on. But it seems really clear that the solution will be Hylgia snapping out of the domination, probably with a connection with the memories.

But, as I said in the previous thread: the whole point of the Tenrir-Sigdi-Durkon story is that it is a very well crafted narrative mirror of the Durkon-Hylgia-Kudzu situation. Tenrir wasn´t ressurected because he died with honor. So did Durkon, who even was HAPPY about being killed by Malack. Both where unware they had a child. Tenrir chose to stay in Valhala. Durkon won´t. That´s the whole point of this arc... and it is an amazing storytelling. I mean ****ING AMAZING STORYTELLING.

This is brilliant and I think you are right. Durkon will chose being with his family over "Dwarven duty" and "dying with honor."

The money WAS for resurrecting Tenrir, its just he decided not to come back.

[xacrom]

Independent on the ultimate outcome, if the reality is substantially different than the "crayon retelling" it'd at least confirm 100% that the myth of the Snarl is off-base. I'm also curious to see how much this will impact the feasibility of just a complete 180 possibility on the tears.

[Evil_Lamp_6]

The money WAS for resurrecting Tenrir, its just he decided not to come back.
But then why be so secretive about it? That is something that Durkon would totally have understood. I still feel like we're missing something here.

[xacrom]

This is brilliant and I think you are right. Durkon will chose being with his family over "Dwarven duty" and "dying with honor."

The money WAS for resurrecting Tenrir, its just he decided not to come back.

Based on earlier comments about resurrection in this strips, I think that he refused to come back will be a decently big issue. I am on board with this being a high possibility that she got the spell but it didn't work... but how might it affect the current events?

It won't shock Durkula and add to concentration. Is the idea that Durkula will say something out loud that will snap Hylgia? If so, what would it be? Why would Hylgia care? I guess in the end the cleanest idea would be that Durkon somehow gets some "inner strength" rage sorta deal to break the vampire's hold just long enough? But wouldn't Durkon already know this memory? Is the memory PLUS Roy's telling him he could come back enough??

[Rogar Demonblud]

The vampire has to give Hilgya an order that conflicts with her nature. Saying something random will not trigger a new save. And given what we've worked out about her build, the +2 on a new save still leaves her with about a 20% chance of failing the save.

[Fyraltari]

It may have been the best spell that Ponchella had prepared prior to become vampirized. Do we know if any of the vampire clerics prepared spells after being vampirized?
The Creed was vamped because they were out of spells remember? Besides there has been at least one dusk between the godsmoot and the Order's arrival after midnight (when they vamped the second horde).

But, as I said in the previous thread: the whole point of the Tenrir-Sigdi-Durkon story is that it is a very well crafted narrative mirror of the Durkon-Hylgia-Kudzu situation. Tenrir wasn´t ressurected because he died with honor. So did Durkon, who even was HAPPY about being killed by Malack. Both where unware they had a child. Tenrir chose to stay in Valhala. Durkon won´t. That´s the whole point of this arc... and it is an amazing storytelling. I mean F*CKING AMAZING STORYTELLING.

Not until that's what happens in-comic it isn't. That's a good theory you have there but don't start skinning bears before you kill them.

[ThePhantasm]

But then why be so secretive about it? That is something that Durkon would totally have understood. I still feel like we're missing something here.

It has something to do with how Durkon's memories connect together (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0963.html) in a way he never realized. I don't really know yet to be honest. I don't have all the details.

But somehow Durkon will use the memory (or memories) to trick Durkula into doing something disadvantageous to the vampire.

[Quinton250]

I haven't posted in nearly five years and haven't been reading the forums much either as of late but this latest batch of strips and the impending reveal of Durkon's plan has me on the edge of my seat. I want to share some of my theories, my apologies if some of this has already been posted or discussed before.

Part of the mystery of Durkon's next move is not simply what the plan is but how this plan will possibly work. Durkon's only means to affect the situation is to give information to Durkula. If his plan involves Durkula's inability to take certain types of context from stories, how can he affect the outcome by having Durkula miss out on a portion of the information he is given? It would be different if someone else was able to view these memories and gather information that would go over Durkula's head but that's not the case here so it very much limits Durkon's options. Especially since Durkula is so paranoid about being fooled, he will think twice before he acts on something based on information he gathers from the stories.

I feel like there are also a number of plot threads and themes that will almost certainly be tied into this resolution but I can't think of something that ties them all together, just a handful of theories that would satisfy most of them. These would be the most likely to be addressed, in my opinion:


The plan has to involve Durkon's observation from #963 about Durkula not seeing how the two stories were linked. I doubt this means Durkula can't make comparisons, it's likely that he sees the practical parts of the memory (who, what where, when) and not the motivations (why) for the actions people take and how past situations affect future decisions. Durkon's thoughts upon realizing this, plus his declaration that "it's definitely time for the big fight scene" seem to imply he has taken time to devise this plan and knows it is about to be put in place.


The plan looks to be tied to the conclusion of Durkon's current memory about his mother's money and will likely cast light on a number of previous memories and mentions of Durkon's past, specifically regarding his father's death.


I feel like the parallels between Durkon's memory about his mother and the death of his father line up too perfectly with his finding out he is a father posthumously to not be very important. However if he chose this memory based on finding out he has a son, it goes against the perception that Durkon had this all planned out.


It will probably involve Durkon finding out about his banishment from Dwarven lands. I'm not sure how this will assist the plan, since it seems Durkon already has his plan decided, but the fact that Roy already attempted to share this means it will probably be relevant.



Theory #1 - The common theme Durkula will miss is parenthood

Durkon's memory about the actions his mother took after the death of her husband are meant to draw parallel to Hilgya's current predicament. What if we find out that Durkon's mother attempted to raise his father and the father opted to stay dead (and thus, the "donation" of the diamonds for the spell actually defaulted to a true donation to the church) because the father preferred to stay in his desired afterlife and wasn't willing to risk not returning to it the next time he died just to be with his wife and raise his son. Perhaps upon finding this out, Durkula taunts Durkon that "your father didn't want you, didn't want to raise you, didn't want anything to do with you" and when Hilgya hears these words coming out of the actual father of her own child while he holds him, she is able to snap out of the domination. (Note: Darn, it looks like part of this idea was posted by someone else while I typed this)

Theory #2 - The common theme Durkula will miss is distraction

Durkula has made it very clear that he is paranoid about Durkon's memories and being manipulated or fooled because of them. He hasn't done a very good job in hiding that he is interested in some of the memories but doesn't want Durkon to think he cares. He asked for the story about Durkon's father, then said it didn't matter to him but he wanted to know the information so he wouldn't get distracted if it came up at a critical point in the future. Durkon has made the connection and is telling a story that will likely lead to a reveal about his father and so far it seems to have worked to distract Durkula. Durkula is too proud to admit Durkon has had any influence (despite it affecting his communication with his team and his concentration on the battle) and makes sure to point out that the sword throwing is the only thing distracting him. Roy also states "but if I can shake his concentration, maybe" before getting attacked by Elan, it would make sense that Durkon affects the battle here by doing exactly what Roy was going to attempt. While simply distracting Durkula further doesn't have the dramatic twist that the tension and build up seem to be implying, a combination of the dramatic reveal about Durkon's father and Durkon gloating to Durkula that he has sprung a trap on him might be enough to create a level of paranoia that distracts Durkula.

Theory #3 - The common theme Durkula will miss is trickery

Hilgya has some perceptions of Durkon that don't mesh with reality (unscrupulous, depravity, tossing women aside, etc.) but they do mesh perfectly with the terrible things she said about her husband (who was shown to be a loving partner). However, every mission Hilgya has ever embarked on in this story has involved trickery. She joined Nale to steal the amulet for Loki. She used disguises and dreams to rob her own family of all of their money so she could push her husband's family into accepting a divorce. What are the chances she is here for the reasons exactly as stated? If she has gone on a mission to find Durkon after being granted a divorce, when it was clear he left her because she was still married, isn't it more likely that she intended to win him back? Isn't it more likely she brought the baby to appeal to Durkon's sense of honor and increase her chances to be with him? It certainly makes more sense than bringing the baby along to watch her murder his father.

So what if the baby is a ruse? What if it's an illusion or a shapeshifted third party? The baby does fit the color scheme of Sabine in disguise, who may be working on behalf of the IFCC while helping her former teammate fool Durkon. It would make sense that the IFCC would be aware of Hel's plan and look to influence the situation. Durkon might have selected to share the memory of not using protection with Hilgya and left out additional information that shows he knew it would be impossible. Durkon, remembering that he gave Durkula information on the location of the temple in order to potentially save lives that may have been lost while Durkula found it on his own, might have made a similar deal to "save his family" and once again made a concession that could possibly help Durkula with his plan and end up having those lives lost anyway. This plan seems wouldn't set off any alarm bells to Durkula and in fact, ended up putting both Sabine and Hilgya in close range to Durkula.

[Evil_Lamp_6]

It has something to do with how Durkon's memories connect together (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0963.html) in a way he never realized. I don't really know yet to be honest. I don't have all the details.

But somehow Durkon will use the memory (or memories) to trick Durkula into doing something disadvantageous to the vampire.

I meant Durkon's Ma being so secretive with Durkon about the whole past stuff, not Durkon presently being secretive with the memories and HPoH.

Edit: I am bad at spelling.

[KorvinStarmast]

Not quite. Belkar just made a deep statement about some deep guilt he feels about Durkon death, some sort of survivor guilt. Also: he does like V, even kissed him/her once. In Azure City; drunk at the time. :belkar:

[ThePhantasm]

I meant Durkon's Ma being so secretive with Durkon about the whole past stuff, not Durkon presently being secretive with the memories and HPoH.

Edit: I am bad at spelling.

Well, a father caring more about his own afterlife than he does about his son might itself be upsetting enough to keep secret.

[Rogar Demonblud]

How would he know he has a son? Someone summoning a planetar to carry a letter?

[Thurulian]

Holding a baby hostage thats just a "Durk" move .... no?... sorry ill just leave

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Holding a baby hostage thats just a "Durk" move .... no?... sorry ill just leave

... I giggled.

[ThePhantasm]

How would he know he has a son? Someone summoning a planetar to carry a letter?

No idea. Obviously there's details to the story we don't have yet. I'm just spitballing.

[KorvinStarmast]

I just read Belkar's lines in strip 880 again (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0880.html), and a bit of foreshadowing struck me. (Panel 18 in particular)

Roy: Why would he have fought a vampire cleric alone, hun? Why didn't he come get us?

Belkar: To protect you, moron! To keep the vampire from dominating you into killing each other.

Which plan is roughly what Durkula is putting into action now ...

[ThePhantasm]

I just read Belkar's lines in strip 880 again (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0880.html), and a bit of foreshadowing struck me. (Panel 18 in particular)

Roy: Why would he have fought a vampire cleric alone, hun? Why didn't he come get us?

Belkar: To protect you, moron! To keep the vampire from dominating you into killing each other.

Which plan is roughly what Durkula is putting into action now ...

Yeah that's a good catch. Unfortunately attacking Durkula alone isn't (wasn't) really feasible with all those spawn around.

[Tarthalion]

So what if the baby is a ruse?

An interesting theory. Hilgya had never actually said that the baby is Durkon's... we (the readers), the other members of the Stick, Durkula and possibly Durkon have all just presumed it.

But whatever Durkon's plan is, it's got nothing to do with Hilgya, baby or prophesies, as he started his plan before knowing about them.

I also believe that there HAS to be some significance to being in the banquet hall, rather than elsewhere.

[Spanish_Paladin]

Damn!!, that looks bad for Roy :(

[JumboWheat01]

I hope Roy's been doing good on those HP Gains for all his fighter levels, cause he's really taking a pounding.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Would Holy Water hurt baby Kudzu?

If Roy has any handy, I'm pretty sure that would go through the anti-life shield.

[Andrew Markham]

I really hope there's a turnaround soon...I don't think I can take much more of this. Man, how does Roy always get stuck in these situations?

[Leirus]

Unknowable; too much is dependent on extremely variable dice rolls and information we don't have.

Thanks. With my zero knowledge I always assume others would know this just by looking.

[Shatteredtower]

Wow. Just how many frying pans do you keep under that fire of yours, Giant? Thank you for the quick update, and I acknowledge deserving the serving of, "Be careful what you wish for," you included on the side.

[Gnoman]

Independent on the ultimate outcome, if the reality is substantially different than the "crayon retelling" it'd at least confirm 100% that the myth of the Snarl is off-base.

That's nonsense. It would prove that the second-hand accounts represented as crayon drawings can be inaccurate, but would not prove that such accounts must be.

[TheBertful]

So, first time ever posting/replying, but one possibility that has occurred to me is that Durkula is holding Kudzu. Hilgya wants Durkon murdered for what he did, could Durkula holding Kudzu trigger an "against principles" to break her Domination/Gaze/thingy?

Or is that too "simple" for this comic? :smallconfused:

[SilverCacaobean]

I think V is out for good or even if he/she gets up, she won´t be the decisive figure of this battle. Roy may drink that potion, try to knock out another PC and so on. But it seems really clear that the solution will be Hylgia snapping out of the domination, probably with a connection with the memories.

But, as I said in the previous thread: the whole point of the Tenrir-Sigdi-Durkon story is that it is a very well crafted narrative mirror of the Durkon-Hylgia-Kudzu situation. Tenrir wasn´t ressurected because he died with honor. So did Durkon, who even was HAPPY about being killed by Malack. Both where unware they had a child. Tenrir chose to stay in Valhala. Durkon won´t. That´s the whole point of this arc... and it is an amazing storytelling. I mean F*CKING AMAZING STORYTELLING.

Cool theory. Sounds plausible. My guess is Durkon will ask her why his dad refused to come back, or why she chose not to use the money to resurrect him and then she'll tell him this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0084.html). How could that help on this fight? No idea, which probably means it'll be more than that. I was wrong again about this being the strip where we'd see the full memory. Damn it I can't wait to see the memory, I'm on the edge of my seat and I'm sure it'll be worth it.

[Leirus]

Now I am wondering. Thirden told young Durkon that he, the others and Sidgi did not became friends until "right before you (Durkon) were born." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0991.html)
I wonder how big this reveal will be and if Thirden, Hoskin & company were involved in whatever happened.

[deuterio12]

Finally Haley decides to rejoin the fight.

And I guess she's making up for all those lost combat rounds with some crazy tumbling multi-attack hasted pounce.

She must've rolled pretty poorly on all those extra d6 if Roy is still standing though.

[Rogar Demonblud]

So, first time ever posting/replying, but one possibility that has occurred to me is that Durkula is holding Kudzu. Hilgya wants Durkon murdered for what he did, could Durkula holding Kudzu trigger an "against principles" to break her Domination/Gaze/thingy?

Or is that too "simple" for this comic? :smallconfused:

It's not an order, so it doesn't matter. You need to be ordered to do something against your nature to trigger a new save.

[Coolio Wolfus]

Guessing: Durkon is a half troll.

[Bluepaw]

Mr Scruffy... :smallfrown::smallfrown::smallfrown:

Critical hit to the ol' heartstrings.

[Fish]

I've thought for a while that what Durkula is missing is sunlight.

Durkon as much as led Durkula to this location. Tenrin liked to look up at "Thor's stars." Sigdi donated to the temple.

Is there ... a skylight in this room?

[Jasdoif]

Well, we know that she had the boots (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html) before the upgrade to 3.5, so it's possible that they're grandfathered in using 3.0 Haste.Could be, I suppose that's the currently most likely scenario.It doesn't account for why she's able to attack four times, though.

Lacking a better or more amusing idea, I'm going to pretend Dashing Swordsman has an ability to grant an ally a move action; and we're seeing a haste-boosted move action and haste-boosted full attack in one panel.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

I've thought for a while that what Durkula is missing is sunlight.

Durkon as much as led Durkula to this location. Tenrin liked to look up at "Thor's stars." Sigdi donated to the temple.

Is there ... a skylight in this room?

Hey, your guess is good as mine, but I think Durkula's gotten an all right look at the ceiling, so he would know to move out of the way when the sunrise goes through the skylight, if it exists.

All right theory of what the memory means, though.

[Keltest]

It doesn't account for why she's able to attack four times, though.

Lacking a better or more amusing idea, I'm going to pretend Dashing Swordsman has an ability to grant an ally a move action; and we're seeing a haste-boosted move action and haste-boosted full attack in one panel.

Or it could just be two rounds of attack. She moves in and gets off one sneak attack, then gets initiative for the next round and goes full attack for the remaining. She went last because she readied or delayed her action for Elan to provide the flank.

[Jasdoif]

Or it could just be two rounds of attack. She moves in and gets off one sneak attack, then gets initiative for the next round and goes full attack for the remaining. She went last because she readied or delayed her action for Elan to provide the flank.Taking a readied or delayed action changes your initiative count to when you took that action; Roy would have a turn before Haley's next turn came up.

[Snails]

I've thought for a while that what Durkula is missing is sunlight.

Durkon as much as led Durkula to this location. Tenrin liked to look up at "Thor's stars." Sigdi donated to the temple.

Is there ... a skylight in this room?

Clever thought, but...

Some of those vampires crawling on the ceiling might have noticed unusual ceiling features.

How does telling Greg he is in danger, help make the danger come into fruition? Either, Myron tells Roy to yank on that lever over there or he doesn't.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Or it could just be two rounds of attack. She moves in and gets off one sneak attack, then gets initiative for the next round and goes full attack for the remaining. She went last because she readied or delayed her action for Elan to provide the flank.

Makes sense that Durkon or whoever dominated Haley is having her use an alright readied action, or else some Kobolds would be dying of laughter.

Not to mention that they got a lesson from Belkar to attack at the end of the initiative order...

[Fyraltari]

I've thought for a while that what Durkula is missing is sunlight.

Durkon as much as led Durkula to this location. Tenrin liked to look up at "Thor's stars." Sigdi donated to the temple.

Is there ... a skylight in this room?

The Order arrived in Firmament around midnight. Sunlight wouldn't be a problem to the vampires for several hours. Also they'd have noticed holes in the ceiling when they were on it.

[TheBertful]

It's not an order, so it doesn't matter. You need to be ordered to do something against your nature to trigger a new save.

The order does not need to come from the person/thing that dominated you? I looked up, and Haley was the person who 'ordered' Thanh to attack 'Shojo' back in strip #524.

[SilverCacaobean]

It doesn't account for why she's able to attack four times, though.

Lacking a better or more amusing idea, I'm going to pretend Dashing Swordsman has an ability to grant an ally a move action; and we're seeing a haste-boosted move action and haste-boosted full attack in one panel.

Or she simply snuck up as close as a five foot step behind him and full attacked next round. Rich has consistently not depicted the battles round per round perfectly rather choosing to make more dramatic portrayals.

Edit: Maybe she didn't even sneak, maybe she was just running towards him and Roy failed his spot check.


The order does not need to come from the person/thing that dominated you? I looked up, and Haley was the person who 'ordered' Thanh to attack 'Shojo' back in strip #524.

Not really, she just showed him "Shojo". He presumably had orders to attack Tsukiko's enemies from before.

[Mandor]

Yea, that's REALLY not looking good for our heroes. V is down. Belkar is down. Elan and Haley are still dominated. Roy is hurt bad. Durkon is still imprisoned in Greg. Hilyga Dominated. Minrah unlikely to suddenly turn into Supergirl.

Short of a major miracle here, they could lose, and losing here would mean TPK.
I.... kinda doubt Roy will just be able to Shazam his way past this with Green Fire again though. He's done that once, and you don't want to overdue that kind of power and have Deus Ex.

Curious to see how they make it past this one. Or, if they die, how it somehow ends up not being the end of it all.

Nice to see the Lime Green Boots of Speed again, though.:smallsmile:

[Mandor]

If Roy dies, the Order is completely toast, since the Cleric is blind and everyone else is either knocked out or dominated. If the Order is completely toast, Elan definitely wonkt have an ending that would qualify as “happy”.

So I think Roy will be fine (given the circumstances). Am I missing something?

One could argue Elan already had his happy ending in Girard's illusions. I don't think you can take it for granted that it's still coming.

[Ghosty]

The Order arrived in Firmament around midnight. Sunlight wouldn't be a problem to the vampires for several hours. Also they'd have noticed holes in the ceiling when they were on it.

Aren't they in Odin's temple/hall, and isn't the observatory in Thor's? Otherwise, nice idea.

I've given up trying to predict where this'll go, other than it'll be something that Durkon shows Greg, that stops him from TPK'ing the Order.

I like what one person upthread or a thread ago posted, re: where's our lovable Epic halfling rogue and is she possible present somewhere in a disguised form.

I'd expect something from Kraagor to be relevant or mentioned in Firmament---how many Epic Dwarven barbarians were there running around in Stickworld? (At least he can't be Durkon's dad, right?)---but that hasn't happened yet either. Strange that Haley and Elan weren't fighting more effectively until now, but the Dominate effect has unlimited range and takes a move action to change commands to the subject, so there's been enough time to get them to fight a bit more effectively. Do we think Sigdi shows up at some point? She's still around, right?

You'd think that inviting inside your sanctum a high level cleric, with a panoply of touch healing attacks that are lethal to undead, would be a bad idea for Greg, but I'm not seeing yet how Hilgya will break the compulsion.

Loving the updates, and I'm very eager to see how Durkon's plan against Greg turns out.

[Ghosty]

...I.... kinda doubt Roy will just be able to Shazam his way past this with Green Fire again though. He's done that once, and you don't want to overdue that kind of power and have Deus Ex...

How would it be a 'Deus Ex' if he did? He's a very high level fighter, with giant-level strength, and a super-greatsword purpose built for killing undead (and it returns when he throws it!), plus he's under an 8th-level mind-protection spell. All of that's been shown in earlier strips. He should be stacking and dusting vampires as fast as he can reach them. About the only thing he should be sweating are negative levels, and the sword protects against those too!

If anything, it's a bit inexplicable that these vamps have been giving the Order this much trouble.

[Goblin_Priest]

The glasses, I presume, not only hide the swirly eyes, but will also hide their absence. I bet once he breaks out of the domination, he'll pretend he's still under the influence, to then sneak a decisive blow on the vampires.

[Tom Lehmann]

The thing that is bothering me the most about the True Rez being for Durkon is Panel 18. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0991.html)
Why? One Priest is extremely surprised that the baby survived; while the other praises Thor. That sure sounds like an unexpected high-level clerical spell was used to accomplish the deed, undoing the effects of the miscarriage from the damage taken.

[rferries]

Yeah, that's my biggest issue with the most prominent theories right now - I have no idea how a memory of someone, regardless of who, being resurrected will actually help them here.

I don't think it'll be satisfying if Greg is distracted at a critical moment - I think it's more likely that Durkon will persuade him to forsake Hel somehow. There was the earlier clue about Greg absorbing some of Durkon's accent - I don't think Greg will turn good but he might decide to oppose Hel out of enlightened self-interest (or maybe even spite)... perhaps it'll be revealed that if Hel remakes the world the vampires' spirits will be destroyed, unlike mortal souls?

[tyckspoon]

How would it be a 'Deus Ex' if he did? He's a very high level fighter, with giant-level strength, and a super-greatsword purpose built for killing undead (and it returns when he throws it!), plus he's under an 8th-level mind-protection spell. All of that's been shown in earlier strips. He should be stacking and dusting vampires as fast as he can reach them. About the only thing he should be sweating are negative levels, and the sword protects against those too!


The sword doesn't protect against negative levels. It may restore them in its healing surge effect. But assuming the effect that restored him in the Godsmoot fight was meant to be Heal, that's actually like the one thing Heal specifically doesn't fix (it's possible it's just 'you are restored to full condition' and not meant to evoke a specific in-game effect, but we don't really have a way to confirm one way or the other on that.)

I'll note that Roy was actually dusting spawn and possibly a few full (but likely low-level) Vampires about as quickly as he could take actions; the problem was he had to do it at range, and throwing and recalling the sword appears to be a full-round action. If they'd tried to swarm him in melee, you would have seen probably three to five of them getting dusted at a go from multiple attacks and Cleave. Since they didn't, he has to do it in a severely inefficient fashion.

[Shoelessgdowar]

And Durkula forfeits. The agreement was Durkula lets Kudzu live at least until Hel destroys the world, Dwarfling Shield is clearly jeopardizing Kudzu's health, so it is not letting him live (being alive is not living, having an enjoyable existence is, the moment Kudzu cried, Durkula fotfeited). Since Durkula has violated the mental/spiritual/psychic contract, he forfeits all rights to actions and thoughts, he must cease all actions that would jeopardize Kudzu's well-being, including aiding Hel, and must actively endeavor to make Kudzu's life as long, happy, and fulfilling as Dwarvenly possible (this is why you NEVER violate Mental/Spiritual/Psychic Contracts, because you can never fully know what is in the subconscious and unconscious fine thoughtprint).

[Askthepizzaguy]

Something about Tenrin's off-panel death has me churning up ideas.

I haven't thought this through or looked for clues and did super sleuthing like many folks here, and I don't see how it can relate to Durkon's plans. But, this is where the pieces are fitting together in my mind as I am trying to understand where we are going with this.

I am spoiling on the long shot chance any of this is correct.

1. Tenrin's body was never found.

2. He was trapped deep in stone with a troll that regenerates and doesn't die from simple injuries, or even the weapons that Tenrin had on him. Tenrin could not slay the troll with the weapons he had on him, period.

3. It does not appear any attempts at True resurrection brought Tenrin back. Maybe, not even ever attempted.

4. I disagree with the idea the resurrection was used on Durkon the unborn child. I think the comic shows Fetus Durkon survived the cave-in.

5. True resurrection would not bring back a person who is alive, anyway.

6. Tenrin would therefore be trapped inside rock with a dangerous dragon-troll that constantly regenerates, as trolls do, but is trapped inside rock. Possibly providing Tenrin with a source of food, like the Hydra that was shown earlier in the comic which was still alive but regenerated. It provides a constant source of food, and it would have been a typical Giant foreshadowing technique to show us that something like this was possible in a gag comic from a long time ago.

7. Water can seep in through broken rocks, enough to keep Tenrin alive, along with his constant source of food.

8. Tenrin does not simply try to tunnel out, because if he does, he provides a way for the dragon-troll to also escape and terrorize the Dwarven village. Out of a sense of duty and protecting his family, he instead camps next to the dragon-troll for decades. He also cannot commit suicide, because then he cannot die with honor.

9. Vaarsuvius slays the dragon-troll inadvertently with the FAMILICIDE epic spell, not that long ago in-comic time. This provides Tenrin with the opportunity to finally escape, after all these years, since the troll is finally dead.

10. Present day, Tenrin could be about to appear, because he is now free. It was Tuesday, now, after midnight, it is Odin's day, Wednesday. He might show up in this particular hall, because he might need to find people to help him find his wife, and the rest of the place is deserted. And he figures since it is Odin's day, they are sure to end up assembling in this particular hall dedicated to the worship of Odin on his holiest day. (Do I have the days right?)

....

That's the idea, such as it is.

However, I still think it might be more likely that Hilgya or Belkar are the ones more narratively equipped to turn the tide of battle. Possibly with a little help from our newest cleric added to the team, and Scruffy.

11. All I think Tenrin appearing would do would be to break Durkula's concentration, because he is Durkon on his worst day. His father suddenly appearing, alive, would surprise even Durkula himself and make him blow a concentration check.

12. Durkula's concentration is blown, and suddenly, Hilgya and Belkar are free.

13. Hilgya gets re-dominated because she is the most obvious imminent threat, but she manages to dispel the anti life shell and damage the other vampires heavily, Durkula included.

14. Then, Belkar alone is awake, not damaged, and not dominated. He activates his Protection From Mind Whammy Or Whatever clasp, and he cannot become re-dominated. Then he kicks the ass of his favored enemy, the undead man who stole Durkon away from us and tormented him just by existing, but also by his actions. Belkar stakes Durkula, redeeming himself and saving the entire order of the stick.

15. Now Durkon can finally be resurrected, and he is.

Problems:

It just isn't something Durkon can have planned, or known about in advance. So I think there's a different motive behind this backstory exposition. But getting Durkula into this particular hall was deliberate, and it has to do with it being Wednesday.

It's nice, but I don't think it completely fits. I am missing something even if any of this is right.
If you think this theory has any merit or not, please spoiler it if/when you discuss.

I have made several bad guesses so far. So I don't know how much I believe this.

I also like the Sabine idea someone had. Issue with that is she (Hilgya) was shown as pregnant in her exposition, and I believe it is real because of the family theme Giant has going on. She could be lying and deceiving, which she is almost compelled to do as her character. But something about it feels off.

I think it can happen, I just don't think it is exactly the solution. But hey, I wouldn't be surprised if none of us know nor can guess exactly what is about to happen. And if someone does, it won't be me, not with my track record.

[Knaight]

I've thought for a while that what Durkula is missing is sunlight.

Durkon as much as led Durkula to this location. Tenrin liked to look up at "Thor's stars." Sigdi donated to the temple.

Is there ... a skylight in this room?

I'm not in any way convinced by this hypothesis, but it does have a few things going for it beyond this - starting with how Roy explicitly has Knowledge: Architecture ranks, and Durkon knows that. That said, it doesn't seem to fit in well with the memories we've seen or the whole concept of connections between memories - though there's still one memory to finish.

[Psyren]

I doubt Familicide has any relation to Sigdi's troll. It was immune to fire in the story, and black dragons are immune to acid.


Belkar did go down like a sack of potatoes, unless it's some trick on his part. He should be too durable to be taken down by a couple of sword hits.

THUNK and WHAP looks like a couple of power attacks in quick succession to me. Roy also seems to me the type to grab Subduing Strike as one of his bonus feats since he likes knocking fools out nonlethally so much.

[eilandesq]

I'm not in any way convinced by this hypothesis, but it does have a few things going for it beyond this - starting with how Roy explicitly has Knowledge: Architecture ranks, and Durkon knows that. That said, it doesn't seem to fit in well with the memories we've seen or the whole concept of connections between memories - though there's still one memory to finish.

So maybe Roy spots a lever that seems to have no obvious purpose, then notices a crack in the center of the roof?

[eilandesq]

I doubt Familicide has any relation to Sigdi's troll. It was immune to fire in the story, and black dragons are immune to acid.



THUNK and WHAP looks like a couple of power attacks in quick succession to me. Roy also seems to me the type to grab Subduing Strike as one of his bonus feats since he likes knocking fools out nonlethally so much.

Let's hope so, because Elan or Haley need to go down for the count next, or Roy's dead. Two or three more Sneak attacks would be it for Roy, I think.

[gerryq]

Belkar did go down like a sack of potatoes, unless it's some trick on his part. He should be too durable to be taken down by a couple of sword hits.

His eyes aren't XX. They are closed. And Mr. Scruffy came back to him.

I think Belkar is coming out of it.

[WindStruck]

Get your adamantine steak knives! Only fifty easy payments of 60 gp. They never grow dull! No matter how tough your leader's armor is!

[Mandor]

And Durkula forfeits. The agreement was Durkula lets Kudzu live at least until Hel destroys the world, Dwarfling Shield is clearly jeopardizing Kudzu's health, so it is not letting him live (being alive is not living, having an enjoyable existence is, the moment Kudzu cried, Durkula fotfeited). Since Durkula has violated the mental/spiritual/psychic contract, he forfeits all rights to actions and thoughts, he must cease all actions that would jeopardize Kudzu's well-being, including aiding Hel, and must actively endeavor to make Kudzu's life as long, happy, and fulfilling as Dwarvenly possible (this is why you NEVER violate Mental/Spiritual/Psychic Contracts, because you can never fully know what is in the subconscious and unconscious fine thoughtprint).

May you never find yourself trying to make (and win) an argument like that in an actual court of law against a competent lawyer.

Lawful Evil doesnt' give two rips about how YOU interpret their promise. In fact, they will cackle with delight if you interpret them wrong. But they will not be bound by any more than precisely what they said, and even then good luck trying to get them to abandon THEIR position.
Besides, even if Greg did forfeit? Okay... then Durkon .... just doesnt' have to be quiet? Can keep offering more dstractions beyond the current memory?

[Peelee]

May you never find yourself trying to make (and win) an argument like that in an actual court of law against a competent lawyer.

Eh, it's about part for the course as far as their arguments tend to go.

[Jay R]

And Durkula forfeits. The agreement was Durkula lets Kudzu live at least until Hel destroys the world, ...

Don't be silly. If that is true, then he does not forfeit while Kudzu lives.

[Kish]

Some people on this forum show a bizarre fondness for asserting "This means Hel loses!" whenever...well, anything happens.

[Calmen1]

But then why be so secretive about it? That is something that Durkon would totally have understood. I still feel like we're missing something here.

So, your question is "why would someone keep the fact that a father chose to abandon his child a secret?"? Because that is the question, right? If Tenrir chose to stay in Valhala it meant that he abandoned Durkon. Pretty difficult to tell this to a kid.

[Keltest]

So, your question is "why would someone keep the fact that a father chose to abandon his child a secret?"? Because that is the question, right? If Tenrir chose to stay in Valhala it meant that he abandoned Durkon. Pretty difficult to tell this to a kid.

Tenrin died before Durkon was born. Its up in the air whether or not he even knew Durkon had been conceived at the time.

[CJG]

Hmm. The way Sigdi describes the treasure makes me think that there is something special about the gemstones. Anything they are good for?

[Peelee]

Hmm. The way Sigdi describes the treasure makes me think that there is something special about the gemstones. Anything they are good for?

They can be exchanged for goods and services, for one. More goods and/or services than a similar sized piece of gold.

[The MunchKING]

Being KO'd does not release the victim from Domination, nor does waking from being KO'd offer a new save. It does, however, prevent Belkar from acting for the duration.

As seen when they knocked out Thanh (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0521.html) and then when he woke up he was still Dominated (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0524.html).

[Grey Watcher]

That is bad. If the Class & Level Geekery thread is right, Haley has 8d6 sneak attack damage on each hit. :smalleek:

[Jay R]

I suspect that the secret itself will not distract the Vampire formerly known as Durkon. It will reveal something about the room, or the rune, that will defeat him – possibly when it's revealed.

So what will it be - a skylight that floods the room with sunshine? The fact that the priests of Thor come to pray at a specific time? Some special property about the runes, and specifically about Sigdi's rune?

I have no idea. The two things I'm sure of, from repeated observations, are that:

1. When Rich's surprise result occurs, I will be surprised, even when I have some idea about it, and
2. It will be more impressive than anything we came up with in the forum.

Have fun inventing guesses. But then sit back and enjoy the ride. Rich is driving.

[Calmen1]

So what if the baby is a ruse?

I really think that the only person Hylgia is lying to is herself. She SAID she would kill Durkon but she still has feeling for him. She brings Kudzu around because she is a strong woman who doesn´t trust anyone and because she loves Kudzu. She loves her child.

[The MunchKING]

I wonder whether there is a reason for that gold to have been there or if this is just another "monster=look" joke like Haley getting money from cleaning showers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1029.html).

He was a half-dragon. They tend to be hoarders, even in the best of people.


I've thought for a while that what Durkula is missing is sunlight.

Durkon as much as led Durkula to this location. Tenrin liked to look up at "Thor's stars." Sigdi donated to the temple.

Is there ... a skylight in this room?

That's a really annoying Vampire trope, when they're fighting Vampires at midnight or whatever and then all the sudden BOOM it's dawn just so they can get the daylight weakness in.


And Durkula forfeits. The agreement was Durkula lets Kudzu live at least until Hel destroys the world, Dwarfling Shield is clearly jeopardizing Kudzu's health, so it is not letting him live (being alive is not living, having an enjoyable existence is, the moment Kudzu cried, Durkula fotfeited). Since Durkula has violated the mental/spiritual/psychic contract, he forfeits all rights to actions and thoughts, he must cease all actions that would jeopardize Kudzu's well-being, including aiding Hel, and must actively endeavor to make Kudzu's life as long, happy, and fulfilling as Dwarvenly possible (this is why you NEVER violate Mental/Spiritual/Psychic Contracts, because you can never fully know what is in the subconscious and unconscious fine thoughtprint).

Yeah, let's see you enforce that one, buddy.


Would Holy Water hurt baby Kudzu?

If Roy has any handy, I'm pretty sure that would go through the anti-life shield.

Shouldn't. Unless Kudzu is secretly an evil Outsider.

What if Kudzu ISN'T Durkon's Baby, but LOKI'S!!

Possibly with him tricking her into thinking it's Durkon's because Chaotic God of Lies and all that.

[The DeathKnight]

Went back to look, and in the comic strip 'The Sargent and the Sapper' you see that blond dwarf running past that chest. Well played Giant, well played indeed.

[zimmerwald1915]

That is bad. If the Class & Level Geekery thread is right, Haley has 8d6 sneak attack damage on each hit. :smalleek:
Meh. Roy's still standing, and can use his sword to heal himself significantly at least once per day. He hasn't so healed himself yet. He'll be fine.

Frankly, this new tack of Roy's, knocking out his dominated teammates, is a good thing. Clear out the chaff from the scene, so it can focus on the people who actually matter: Durkon, his vampire, and Roy.

[BriarHobbit]

Wow, the Thief is back in the game and just did a ton of damage. I did not expect Belkar to go down quite so quickly, but I have no problem with the notion of time being compressed in the interest of story telling.

This is just getting harder and harder for the good guys. Very nice.

[Mandor]

I really don't think Sigdi had anyone ressurrected, nor any kind of conditional whammy that will now zap Greg.
As others have said, you need to first destroy a vampire before you can raise the original spirit. Greg isn't destroyed yet.

I doubt Tenrin was raised, because he died 100% totally safe from Hel, in full honor. I would bet a lot that dwarven culture insists that you let the honored dead stay dead. Remember their entire culture is built around a sense of honor specifically to thwart Hel. I'd bet she gave away the gold so that she could not be tempted by that. And/or, some survivor's guilt. Not wanting to allow herself to live in opulance when she might feel that she failed Tenrin on some level.

However. Given that High Priest of Odin has been known to meddle at least once, giving the prophecy that got Durkon exiled, I could believe that perhaps, a High Priest of Odin meddled before that, and told Sigdi .... something.... that made her think the Church of Thor would need the funds for some pivotal moment. I love the idea of some kind of Skylight, because I'd see it as an homage / reference to the Starfire Wheel in Babylon 5. But I don't think enough time has passed to have the sun standing high overhead yet. So I doubt it will be a skylight.

[Rrmcklin]

Some people on this forum show a bizarre fondness for asserting "This means Hel loses!" whenever...well, anything happens.

It might be in line with the rather strange way some people talk like the Order could actually lose here, and thus are trying to find a way that says they want... besides the obvious reasons that if they lose, then the world is destroyed and that's the end of the story, which is obviously not going to happen.

[deuterio12]

Wow, the Thief is back in the game and just did a ton of damage. I did not expect Belkar to go down quite so quickly, but I have no problem with the notion of time being compressed in the interest of story telling.


Roy had already shown he can swiftly clean the floor with Belkar when the fighter gets serious back when they were made into gladiators.

[Crusher]

It might be in line with the rather strange way some people talk like the Order could actually lose here, and thus are trying to find a way that says they want... besides the obvious reasons that if they lose, then the world is destroyed and that's the end of the story, which is obviously not going to happen.

Heroes are getting into a pretty rough spot now. I don't really expect the world to lose, but things are getting dicey.

[Rogar Demonblud]

So what will it be - a skylight that floods the room with sunshine?

Would be nice, if it wasn't the middle of the night.


The fact that the priests of Thor come to pray at a specific time?

Being Good aligned clerics, that would be dawn. See above. Also, that would happen at the temple, not a privately owned feasting hall.

[factotum]

Being Good aligned clerics, that would be dawn. See above. Also, that would happen at the temple, not a privately owned feasting hall.

When is it established this is a "privately owned" feasting hall? It might be the place where all the clerics of Thor come to have breakfast, for all we know. Seems unlikely Durkula would have picked it if that were the case, admittedly...

[Jasdoif]

When is it established this is a "privately owned" feasting hall? It might be the place where all the clerics of Thor come to have breakfast, for all we know. Seems unlikely Durkula would have picked it if that were the case, admittedly...The owners of the hall are Odin worshippers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1089.html), is all I got.

[Rrmcklin]

Heroes are getting into a pretty rough spot now. I don't really expect the world to lose, but things are getting dicey.

How they'll win is an interesting question. Will they win isn't, because there's no actual chance they'll lose, because it would break the story if they did. And some people are posing discussion in the latter form instead of the former.

I understand getting immersed in what's going on, but there's a limit.

[redrake]

Maybe it's time for Tarquin to come and save the day.

[Lombard]

Life of an innocent person(s) vs. the whole world blowing up. Enigme classique!

[Psychronia]

So this is just a small technical detail, but is it a flashback within a flashback when Durkon is showing a memory of his mother going through a flashback?

...Also, did Durkon see her flashback because the 4th wall can suck it, or is he pulling up a memory of a scene he imagined as a child?

[Supermagle]

... the memories that Durkon* cannot see the combined relevance of are these:
* "tea time": http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0810.html
* "An' ye know how tha five o' us all feel aboot ye payin' us back anythin'" and "Tha owners o' the hall're Odin-worshippers, so thar always closed on Tuesday": http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1089.html

Wild guess: Sigdi donated to the Temple of Thor to raise those five dwarves from Hel (instead of Tenrin), and they are now her friends who owe everything to her, and they borrow the hall for every Tuesday where the owners are not using it anyway. Expect a bunch of dedicated dwarves to enter at any moment - dwarves with extra incitament to fight to the death in honorable combat.

"I still can't help but notice that you volunteered a suitable location for our evil plans without even being asked".

[LuPuWei]

And suddenly we're staring down the barrel at TPK...

[Wysper]

Considering the many wounds Roy has on his body and the couple of levels he got drained, he can't be very healthy anymore. He's got one or two rounds of HP in him at this rate.

Are there feats that can knock out someone for a short period of time? Or perhaps massive damage rules applying to non-lethal damage?

This is what I was thinking.

[Emperor Time]

Wow, I forgot that Haley is that tough, even if she doesn't have a bow to work with.

[Beelzebubba]

And suddenly we're staring down the barrel at TPK...

I remember feeling this way the entire Tarquin desert fight.

[SaintRidley]

... the memories that Durkon* cannot see the combined relevance of are these:
* "tea time": http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0810.html
* "An' ye know how tha five o' us all feel aboot ye payin' us back anythin'" and "Tha owners o' the hall're Odin-worshippers, so thar always closed on Tuesday": http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1089.html

Wild guess: Sigdi donated to the Temple of Thor to raise those five dwarves from Hel (instead of Tenrin), and they are now her friends who owe everything to her, and they borrow the hall for every Tuesday where the owners are not using it anyway. Expect a bunch of dedicated dwarves to enter at any moment - dwarves with extra incitament to fight to the death in honorable combat.

"I still can't help but notice that you volunteered a suitable location for our evil plans without even being asked".

Now that right there is an actual, interesting idea for how this memory could be useful. I applaud you.

[locksmith of lo]

i probably should have replied yesterday, early in the thread... but here it goes. durkon's memory probably has to do with his "pa" not being his true father. his mother had a one night stand with someone, probably the guy who kept proposing later after the incident. durkon's "pa" did the right and honorable thing by marrying her and doing the covering act of lots of noisy sex, to give her a cover story to hide the shame of the illegitimate child. but the "pa" got killed early and honorably, though she still had her cover story for durkon. i do not know what might have happened to durkon's real father, but worst case scenario is that he died in an other than honorable way and is with hel at this time. the reveal would be that not only is durkon an illegitimate child, as well as the father of an illegitimate child, his biological father is with hel, the irony of it all would be too funny for the vampire that it would break his concentration and create a distraction for a round or two. on top of that big reveal, i bet there will be a vital bit of important information that will pass without notice until too late.

that is my two cents and i think this is my first post after lurking for some many years. :smallbiggrin:

[Kardwill]

How they'll win is an interesting question. Will they win isn't, because there's no actual chance they'll lose, because it would break the story if they did.

When victory is mandatory (which is the case in most "save the world" stuff), the real tension of the scene is usually "What price will they pay for their victory?" , rather than "how will they win?"
There could be some pretty ugly "victories" for that scene, so yeah, there is tension aplenty, even if "Hel won" is out of the picture. :)

[Anarion]

Darn, the Order has gotten far too effective while having low will saves. Haleys haste sneak attacks are really cool though.

[warmachine]

And suddenly we're staring down the barrel at TPK...
I agree. A vital aspect of D&D combat, especially at high level, is the action economy. A single, powerful person can't act fast enough to handle many, mediocre opponents. Against multiple, powerful enemies with minions, you need all your side performing their best. Losing some action spenders of your side? Bad news. They're your best spellcasters? You need their game changer actions right now. The rest of what were your best action spenders are disrupting what few actions your side can spend? You're completely screwed.

[Sylian]

It doesn't account for why she's able to attack four times, though.

Lacking a better or more amusing idea, I'm going to pretend Dashing Swordsman has an ability to grant an ally a move action; and we're seeing a haste-boosted move action and haste-boosted full attack in one panel.I was under the impression that 3E Haste gave a Standard action, which could be used to move and then she could use her full-attack to attack. However, it turns out my knowledge of 3E was lacking, and that 3E Haste actually gave a Partial action, which cannot be used to move. Thus, 3E Haste still wouldn't work.

I think, at this point in time, the most likely explanation is a houserule of some sort (possibly like the ability you suggested from Dashing Swordsman). Maybe she has some magic item that lets her move a bit as a Swift action?

[SilverCacaobean]

<snip>

I hope there's a toilet down there, otherwise Tenrin drowned in his own piss and **** a long time ago... :smalltongue:


How they'll win is an interesting question. Will they win isn't, because there's no actual chance they'll lose, because it would break the story if they did. And some people are posing discussion in the latter form instead of the former.

I understand getting immersed in what's going on, but there's a limit.

I bet at least one person said exactly that back at the battle of Azure city.


[..]* "An' ye know how tha five o' us all feel aboot ye payin' us back anythin'" [..] Wild guess: Sigdi donated to the Temple of Thor to raise those five dwarves from Hel (instead of Tenrin), and they are now her friends who owe everything to her, [...]

I'm not sure about the rest of what you said, but this looks right. I checked and raise dead costs 5,000 gp (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raiseDead.htm) of diamonds. 5,000 x 5 = 25,000. I think it's very possible she raised them to help them escape Hel.

[oonker]

I bet at least one person said exactly that back at the battle of Azure city.

It was I. Probably not the only one, but I definetely spent some time preaching that:

- Roy won't lose to Xykon, come on! He's the protagonist, and he's having a VERY climactic battle on top of a zombie dragon against his arch-enemy!
- Ok, he lost... but he won't fall to his death!
- Ok, he died... but his team will recover his body, Durkon will raise him and tomorrow they'll search Xykon's phylactery and kill him. I mention Phylactery because of course Xykon will lose to the armada of paladins in the throne room.
- Ok, the paladins lost, but NO WAY will the ghost martyrs lose.
- OK, the ghost martyrs kind of lost (as in Xykon and Redcloak are alive), but at least Haley and Belkar are grabbing Roy's corpse and the next book will be centered on reclaiming Azure City.
-They're not rejoined at the end of the book? That's it for me!

Even stopped reading for a while. Came back when V was leaving the boat.

[ti'esar]

... the memories that Durkon* cannot see the combined relevance of are these:
* "tea time": http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0810.html
* "An' ye know how tha five o' us all feel aboot ye payin' us back anythin'" and "Tha owners o' the hall're Odin-worshippers, so thar always closed on Tuesday": http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1089.html

Wild guess: Sigdi donated to the Temple of Thor to raise those five dwarves from Hel (instead of Tenrin), and they are now her friends who owe everything to her, and they borrow the hall for every Tuesday where the owners are not using it anyway. Expect a bunch of dedicated dwarves to enter at any moment - dwarves with extra incitament to fight to the death in honorable combat.

"I still can't help but notice that you volunteered a suitable location for our evil plans without even being asked".

Interesting thought, but Durkon seems to think that the very act of showing the memory will harm the vampire's plans - if it's just leading up to the fact that his family will be coming in to join the battle, at best that just seems like it would provoke an "oh crap".

[b_jonas]

He was a half-dragon. They tend to be hoarders, even in the best of people. No they don't.

I've read the D&D 3.5 description of the Half-Dragon template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htm) to make a certain joke about the MitD, and it says nothing about hoarding. In contrast, the description of True Dragons spends an entire paragraph on the hoarding behavior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm), plus a line in the statblock of each variety to indicate that this mechanically means that dragons come with triple treasure. In addition, the two other Half-Dragons we've met in the strip, Girard and Enor, don't seem to be hoarders either. A half-dragon would come with just the usual amount of treasure for its base creature type, which will be the standard amount of treasure for a Troll (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/troll.htm). I don't quite understand the rules, but I think a Half-Dragon Troll would count as challenge rating 7, and should normally have much less than 25000 GP worth of treasure.

[Kardwill]

I bet at least one person said exactly that back at the battle of Azure city.


Well, let's be honest destroying the character's homebase and destroying the entire gameworld is quite different. That's why I prefer to use local stakes ("save the village") rather than global ones ("save the world") : My players know I won't kill the entire game, but raze the village, kill their frieds, enslave the PCs and take their stuff? Been there, done that.

So "Hel will win", which means "end of the world that would end the story, stop the character development and render the whole Xykon mess totally irrelevant" seems quite unlikely. Maaaaybe there is a way to salvage the story from there, but I fail to imagine a convincing one.

That said, even if "Hel wins" is out, the order losing this fight (but surviving -or resucitating- to fight another day) could be still possible. Seems unlikely (it would mean that the characters' salvation and Hel's defeat would come from an external source, which is usually unsatisfying), but I guess it could happen.

[NontheistCleric]

Not sure if anyone else has noticed this, and I have no desire to search through 8 pages of thread to find out, but in panel 19 the motion lines make it seem as though Elan's sword has just passed straight through Roy's arm rather than slicing it clean off as it actually should have if it moved like that.

Of course, it is a Chaos Sabre, so maybe it has some chaotic magic in it that means occasionally it just passes harmlessly through enemies.

[arimareiji]

My crackpot theory:

Through some perverse loophole, Hel got Tenrin's spirit. (It weirds me out how characters keep referring to Tenrin as 'presumably' in Valhalla, versus definitely.)
Edit: This is why the resurrection Durkon's mom paid for didn't work.
Durkon has figured it out from some weird detail I missed.
Cue reverse "Luke, I am your father" leading to Tenrin chucking Hel down a ventilation shaft.

[hroþila]

Not sure if anyone else has noticed this, and I have no desire to search through 8 pages of thread to find out, but in panel 19 the motion lines make it seem as though Elan's sword has just passed straight through Roy's arm rather than slicing it clean off as it actually should have if it moved like that.

Of course, it is a Chaos Sabre, so maybe it has some chaotic magic in it that means occasionally it just passes harmlessly through enemies.
I imagine it's just an exaggerated motion line to suggest some sort of draw cut from under Roy's arm to the hip.

[NontheistCleric]

I imagine it's just an exaggerated motion line to suggest some sort of draw cut from under Roy's arm to the hip.

If thats the case, then it's horrendously exaggerated, because the motion line begins from way above Roy's shoulder.

[hroþila]

If thats the case, then it's horrendously exaggerated, because the motion line begins from way above Roy's shoulder.
Well, yes, but I still find it a bit more likely than "sabre phases through body parts randomly".

[Adeptus]

This looks unwinnable. Roy's put in a great effort, but it's not going to be enough. Frankly it's amazing he's still standing.

Durkon's gambit is the only thing they have left. Has anybody figured it out? It has to be about him noticing that the vampire self didn't understand the connection between the earlier two memories.

[Keltest]

If thats the case, then it's horrendously exaggerated, because the motion line begins from way above Roy's shoulder.

On that note, Elan also parries Roy's greatsword with his saber (itself rather unlikely, but its D&D) pulls back for a thrust, and then shanks Roy, without getting smacked in the face with the greatsword he was previously blocking.

What are you doing Roy? Are you just politely letting Elan stab you in the most flamboyant manner possible?

[Resileaf]

On that note, Elan also parries Roy's greatsword with his saber (itself rather unlikely, but its D&D) pulls back for a thrust, and then shanks Roy, without getting smacked in the face with the greatsword he was previously blocking.

What are you doing Roy? Are you just politely letting Elan stab you in the most flamboyant manner possible?

Actually, it's not Elan that parries Roy's attack, it's Roy who blocks Elan's second attack before being hit by the third attack when Elan finally uses his puns to give himself a bonus to attack (it looks like Elan has three attacks per round).

[Sloanzilla]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1086.html

Who is the old guy in the front row? Durkon's grandpa?

[fishhead202]

Has anybody figured it out?

Nope!

I was on the track that the room was important, since Durkon lead them there. Someone else mentioned skylight, and that's what I was thinking, but I'm backing off that theory because whatever happens is going to be tied to this long memory chain we're seeing, and that's obviously Dad-centric, not about a room.

I liked the theory that the Odin worshippers would show up, but if that's the catch, we don't need this memory at all.

It has to be something that is based in the memory, but will have real-world effects, and there simply hasn't been anything in the comic that has done this yet. Not like this.

I can't think of anything that either:
a. wouldn't happen without the memory (like a skylight opening or people showing up), or
b. isn't something that Greg would just shrug at and continue the fight (like, "Dad's alive!" Greg: "Cool, don't care, look Roy's dead")

[warmachine]

Roy's battle plan is screwed. With no high level spellcasters, his target exploiting cover, and two high level PCs blocking and stabbing him, Roy has no good moves. His only hope is Mirrah thinks Belkar is busy, stumbles into V and heals him/her. V back in the game can turn the tide. Trouble is, Roy telling Mirrah to find V will attract enemy attention back to her.

[TheStranger]

... the memories that Durkon* cannot see the combined relevance of are these:
* "tea time": http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0810.html
* "An' ye know how tha five o' us all feel aboot ye payin' us back anythin'" and "Tha owners o' the hall're Odin-worshippers, so thar always closed on Tuesday": http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1089.html

Wild guess: Sigdi donated to the Temple of Thor to raise those five dwarves from Hel (instead of Tenrin), and they are now her friends who owe everything to her, and they borrow the hall for every Tuesday where the owners are not using it anyway. Expect a bunch of dedicated dwarves to enter at any moment - dwarves with extra incitament to fight to the death in honorable combat.

"I still can't help but notice that you volunteered a suitable location for our evil plans without even being asked".

Heh. I posted the same theory in the "25,000 GP" thread.

[brian 333]

Heh. I posted the same theory in the "25,000 GP" thread.

I too have been awaiting the arrival of The Dwarf Patrol, but others have made the deus ex claim. While I would love to see Roy snatch victory from the jaws of defeat unaided, it would make an excelldnt splash page to see the dwarves charge in locked and loaded, Sigdi in the lead with a Sunstone in her hand.

[fishhead202]

Heh. I posted the same theory in the "25,000 GP" thread.

I'll be a little disappointed if this memory is just a "gotcha!", and not the actual cause of whatever is going to happen. Tactically, it would make more sense to NOT show a memory of a trap about to be sprung, and just let said trap do its thing.

[TheStranger]

I too have been awaiting the arrival of The Dwarf Patrol, but others have made the deus ex claim. While I would love to see Roy snatch victory from the jaws of defeat unaided, it would make an excelldnt splash page to see the dwarves charge in locked and loaded, Sigdi in the lead with a Sunstone in her hand.

That it would, and at this point I think it's foreshadowed well enough that it doesn't have any deus ex to it. I think Durkon finishes his memory with Sigdi explaining what she did with the gold, then we go to the splash page. It's certainly telegraphed better than Julio Scoundrel showing up to fight Tarquin.

[Rrmcklin]

Well, let's be honest destroying the character's homebase and destroying the entire gameworld is quite different. That's why I prefer to use local stakes ("save the village") rather than global ones ("save the world") : My players know I won't kill the entire game, but raze the village, kill their frieds, enslave the PCs and take their stuff? Been there, done that.

So "Hel will win", which means "end of the world that would end the story, stop the character development and render the whole Xykon mess totally irrelevant" seems quite unlikely. Maaaaybe there is a way to salvage the story from there, but I fail to imagine a convincing one.

That said, even if "Hel wins" is out, the order losing this fight (but surviving -or resucitating- to fight another day) could be still possible. Seems unlikely (it would mean that the characters' salvation and Hel's defeat would come from an external source, which is usually unsatisfying), but I guess it could happen.

My point exactly, thank you. I'll admit, if I had been reading this during the siege of Azure City, I probably would have sided more with them somehow driving Xykon and his forces away, and probably wouldn't have predicted the great split that happened. But even then, all of that is very different from what naturally results from Hel winning. Sometimes stories can take turns almost nobody expects, and kudos for the ones that can do it well, but some situations just don't lend themselves to that, and this is one of those.

[The MunchKING]

No they don't.

I was just making the same joke about dragons hording gold and then passing that trait down to their kids that Haley made here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0131.html). It wasn't intended to be RAW analysis.

[Hans of Frysia]

... the memories that Durkon* cannot see the combined relevance of are these:
* "tea time": http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0810.html
* "An' ye know how tha five o' us all feel aboot ye payin' us back anythin'" and "Tha owners o' the hall're Odin-worshippers, so thar always closed on Tuesday": http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1089.html

Wild guess: Sigdi donated to the Temple of Thor to raise those five dwarves from Hel (instead of Tenrin), and they are now her friends who owe everything to her, and they borrow the hall for every Tuesday where the owners are not using it anyway. Expect a bunch of dedicated dwarves to enter at any moment - dwarves with extra incitament to fight to the death in honorable combat.

"I still can't help but notice that you volunteered a suitable location for our evil plans without even being asked".

That'd be neat, except that (IIRC) the 25,000 gp worth of diamonds would be consumed when the spells are cast, meaning the money would not count as having been donated (Sigdi simply paid for services received).

In the case of Tenrin, I'm not sure what would happen to the diamonds if the spell is cast, but the recipient refuses to come back. Comic 410 (where they're trying to Resurrect Lord Shojo; sorry, I can't link comics in posts) is rather inconclusive on the matter. Can any of the D&D rule buffs provide a more concrete answer on that?

Finally I would also like to note that, when Roy meets his grandfather in the afterlife, his grandfather only knows about Roy's existence because Roy's mom told him about it, as Roy was born after his grandfather died. This would suggest that Tenrin had no real way of knowing about Durkon, making the "Tenrin abandoned his child, selfishly choosing the afterlife" angle less likely in my opinion.

[Xianthe]

In the case of Tenrin, I'm not sure what would happen to the diamonds if the spell is cast, but the recipient refuses to come back. Comic 410 (where they're trying to Resurrect Lord Shojo; sorry, I can't link comics in posts) is rather inconclusive on the matter. Can any of the D&D rule buffs provide a more concrete answer on that?.

Comic 845 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0845.html) seems to imply that the material component is still used up if the target refuses to be brought back to life ("I've enuff diamond dust for one more Resurrection").

Otherwise the Order could have kept recasting until one of Girard's family members actually agreed to come back.

[factotum]

That'd be neat, except that (IIRC) the 25,000 gp worth of diamonds would be consumed when the spells are cast, meaning the money would not count as having been donated (Sigdi simply paid for services received).

In a strip (I forget which one) Sigdi says the reason she's not had her arm regenerated is because they can't afford the donation to the temple which would be required for a cleric to cast it on her--that suggests that costs for spells are still considered donations.

[Hans of Frysia]

Comic 845 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0845.html) seems to imply that the material component is still used up if the target refuses to be brought back to life ("I've enuff diamond dust for one more Resurrection").

Otherwise the Order could have kept recasting until one of Girard's family members actually agreed to come back.

Nice catch!


In a strip (I forget which one) Sigdi says the reason she's not had her arm regenerated is because they can't afford the donation to the temple which would be required for a cleric to cast it on her--that suggests that costs for spells are still considered donations.

As far as I can tell, Regenerate doesn't require any spell components, unlike the Resurrection spells. However, I will concede that the chest might have held enough gems to include the required amount of diamonds PLUS another 25,000 worth to donate (although since it'd also be 25,000 gp worth of diamonds, that'd be a big coincidence).

[Rogar Demonblud]

I'm thinking if Minrah gets to V, it'll be because Mr Scruffy guides her. The Scruffster is one of the smarter characters in the Order.

[Ironsmith]

Finally I would also like to note that, when Roy meets his grandfather in the afterlife, his grandfather only knows about Roy's existence because Roy's mom told him about it, as Roy was born after his grandfather died. This would suggest that Tenrin had no real way of knowing about Durkon, making the "Tenrin abandoned his child, selfishly choosing the afterlife" angle less likely in my opinion.

As an add-on to this; when Roy was in the afterlife, he had the benefit of a wizard that knew how to scry on the mortal realm to learn how things were going. Tenrin... not so much.

[gatemansgc]

I came here to find out what the backstory on the troll was, but nobody had posted the link to the relevant comic.

So I found it myself.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0991.html
(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0991.html)

and there's the chest right there, and that dwarf is running towards it!

[arimareiji]

Oh, wow, you can see the blonde bearded dwarf going for the treasure chest in that flashback, too. The Giant knows his details.

Thank you for pointing this out. (^_^)

I love the fact it's also a subtle explanation for why he was feeling so charitable. No doubt much of it was sympathy, but there has to be some guilt there as well. It's doubtful he could have prevented the tragedy that happened to her and Tenrin, but he's apparently running for it IN THE MIDDLE OF THE FIGHT.

That has to eat on your soul if you're good-aligned, and it's likely why he fibbed by saying he grabbed it on the way out.

[AutomatedTeller]

My working assumption on the memory is that it will cause Durkula to think something bad for him is about to happen, and he prepares for that, while something different that is bad for him happens that he is either not prepared for or is in a worse shape for because of what he prepared for.

That might be him thinking a set of high level dwarves are about to come in and he gives Roy some time to recover and get V back, probably break the domination on Hilgya, who is, after all, in the shell already.

I can't really think of anything else.

[Aeson]

I don't think that that panel in 991 shows the blond dwarf running to get the treasure chest; I think it shows the blond dwarf running out from in front of the dragon-troll hybrid to avoid being roasted by its fire breath or otherwise killed. The chest also being vaguely near the area which he's running into just means that when Tenrin causes a cave-in he has an opportunity to grab the chest and run without significantly endangering himself.

[ThePhantasm]

he's apparently running for it IN THE MIDDLE OF THE FIGHT.

I think this is just an instance of a condensation of time into one flashback panel.

[Tesla_pasta]

I don't know if anyone has posited this theory before, but I think that the reveal is not going to break *Durkon's concentration or anything, but rather is gonna make him rethink his larger strategic goals in such a way that Hel's forces need to immediately retreat, sparing the order out of necessity. Some old rule relating to the laws of the Dwarven council vote or maybe even the Godsmoot itself that is related to Durkon's exile or perhaps the temple. He saved this reveal in case the Order was able to win the fight, since theres no reason to give Hel's forces any useful info, but with the Order losing Durkon is choosing to reveal it as a last ditch attempt to save them.

[IntelectPaladin]

Durkon's mother would've used this influx of wealth to attempt to revive Tenrin.
And he didn't come back, for reasons unclear as of yet.

is this Giant trying to introduce us to the idea of Durkon doing the same?

I can't take this tension, this stress, and as I've typed a good while ago, I can't see a happy ending here.
A victory that hurts far more than a loss would, perhaps.
If anyone could please prove me wrong in this,
in that there is actually hope after all, it wouldn't go unappreciated.