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TekHed
2018-07-17, 02:34 PM
So these days I mainly only play tabletop games as PbP on sites like the Playground or Mythweavers and a few others. I'm at a stage in my life where I'm busy, everyone else is too busy to make an in-person game happen, and frankly I enjoy the immersion and creative writing of the text format over the silly voices and inevitable junk food of the in-person experience.

I'm ALSO at a point in my gaming career (if one would call it such) that low-level, bog-standard games just aren't as appealing. Usually I'm inspired to play specific characters or builds that usually entail one or more of the following: higher than standard starting level, specific house rules such as point buy or Pathfinder feat progression, or in games like MnM starting out with more PP per PL, or using homebrew classes, races, etc. In some cases my concepts are best suited for solo play for one reason or another, and almost always my character inspirations are tied to a specific setting, or style of game.

I'm no DM/GM myself. I've tried my hand at it over the years and I'm just not good at it. I'm GREAT at world-building on a big scale, coming up with story concepts and game ideas, but I'm just missing something when it comes to the finer points of actually executing a plot within the worlds I dream up and the minutiae of creating and portraying NPCs and running well-balanced combat encounters. Moreover I just don't enjoy it. I'm much better when it comes to inhabiting the single point of view of a PC than trying to run the whole world, even when it's a world I've dreamed up.

Lately it has been proving to be MUCH harder than I remember to find a DM willing to take on such bespoke concepts, who will allow homebrew for example, and most of the games I see being advertised are too low in level, too high in level (level 30, level 100 etc.) or are otherwise unsuitable for the many inspired characters I have dreaming of life through play.

It's to the point where I am actually considering paying someone to DM, if such a thing could even be found. Some Googling shows that thee are a few out there, though usually they offer in person services. I did find one promising person on Roll20 who offers online and I PMed them but who knows how active they are or if they are still in business.

Anyway I thought it might warrant some discussion....

Since we are so used to paying for other entertainment, and since PbP DMs (and players) can often be flaky, why not hire a professional?

Would you consider paying? How much?

Off the top of my head, something like a subscription model would be better than an hourly model for PbP with a certain number of DM posts per week and a regular update schedule, so players know when to get their posts in by (and this structure might encourage more regular player interaction). I'm thinking a group of 5 players, each player pitches in $20/month, that's $100 per group per month. A DM running ten games could than be making $1,000/month or $12k a year just from enjoying a hobby.

Naturally there would need to be some terms put in place, and speaking personally I'd want to vet such a person by seeing samples of previous games. Not every DM or game is created equal of course, but I've experienced some FANTASTIC ones over the years. A lot of them burn out however, or start something and then bail when life changes and so I have a number of great characters whose stories will never be finished. Maybe making it a paid position would help both with attrition and burnout.

I know one argument I've heard against it is it should be fun and not a job, but again we pay for other kinds of entertainment, DMing is a very time intensive exercise, even in PbP because of the work required to plan and write everything, and also I believe there is room to make money doing something you love to do.

What do you all think? I'd love to have a discussion about it, and also if anyone knows any promising candidates, I have as mentioned several game ideas I really would like to find a DM for...

Beneath
2018-07-17, 04:59 PM
I've looked into the economics of this and I don't think there's a way to make it work out unless you make the numbers absurd. Like, the example you gave is someone running ten consistent play-by-post games simultaneously for 50 people in total, while maintaining a paying customer base for each (which is a substantial amount of self-marketing), and still needing another job to get above the poverty line.

Play-by-post has another problem where it runs at the speed of the slowest player; running a group like that (where everyone expects to be catered to individually as a customer and everyone has their own schedule) where the group might get held up waiting for someone who will be upset with you if you don't wait sounds like a no-win situation.

I considered, briefly, putting game seats as rewards for the patreon I'm working on launching, but there are a ton of reasons why that wouldn't have worked out for me and these are just some of them. Not that it's impossible, or that I wouldn't run games for patrons, but I couldn't find a way to make it workable as a standard reward. Fundamentally, the problem comes down to the fact that time investment vs # of customers is entirely skewed; few customers at high time investment per customer means prices have to be high, which means the possible customer base is tiny.

War_lord
2018-07-17, 05:07 PM
The minute someone is doing a task on commission, it stops being a hobby, and they stop being a gamer. It's a job and they're a service provider. Doing something for a fee is totally different to doing it for fun. Any artist or writer can tell you that. I think there's probably very few DMs out there who are both talented and dedicated enough to actually ask money for their services, and also willing to accept that as a service provider they're subject to the whims of the client/clients.

And yeah, there's also the question of how someone's going to make a living off that unless their living costs are exceptionally low.

TekHed
2018-07-17, 05:21 PM
I've looked into the economics of this and I don't think there's a way to make it work out unless you make the numbers absurd. Like, the example you gave is someone running ten consistent play-by-post games simultaneously for 50 people in total, while maintaining a paying customer base for each (which is a substantial amount of self-marketing), and still needing another job to get above the poverty line.


To be clear, I'm not suggesting it be considered as a replacement for a normal job (though Google did turn up some examples in New York and Canada that do DM full time), but rather as a way of being compensated for investing in the time and energy of something you enjoy doing anyway.

It doesn't have to be 10 games, that was just an example, but the time investment is arguably lower with PbP, since it's not a long 6 hour session the way some pro-Dms I've found do in real life, but more like 10-20 minutes of posting here and there. Also, if one were running modules, like the Red Hand of Doom, then much of the prep work is already done, and you aren't even coming up with scenarios for different groups.

Also I disagree fundamentally with this...


The minute someone is doing a task on commission, it stops being a hobby, and they stop being a gamer. It's a job and they're a service provider. Doing something for a fee is totally different to doing it for fun. Any artist or writer can tell you that.

That assumes that no one ever enjoys their work. By your logic every professional actor, writer, musician, artist, etc. has no fun getting paid to do what they do. I think it's the exact opposite of your conclusion...ask any artist or writer if given the fact that they enjoy creating anyway, would they rather be paid for their efforts, and just about all of them will say yes.

Bottom line. I am looking for DMs to run bespoke games, and have been having a harder time as of late. It used to be fairly quick and easy. I'm sure part of it has to do with the misguided exodus to 4e and 5 e from 3.5e.

I am prepared to offer compensation but if someone wants to run a game for free I'm not going to say no.

I think the biggest advantage of paying for it is a better chance of setting terms about what kind of game you want exactly. For as much homebrew gets posted on the Playground I don't find as many games that allow it, or games that start at reasonably high levels. Games either start too low or WAY too damn high (past 20) neither of which interest me really these days.

KillianHawkeye
2018-07-17, 06:08 PM
That assumes that no one ever enjoys their work. By your logic every professional actor, writer, musician, artist, etc. has no fun getting paid to do what they do. I think it's the exact opposite of your conclusion...ask any artist or writer if given the fact that they enjoy creating anyway, would they rather be paid for their efforts, and just about all of them will say yes.

Be that as it may, and it's true that I much prefer having a job that uses my art skills over one that's completely unrelated to my interests, there's still a big difference between using my artistic talents for work and using them on a personal art project. One is for work, the other is for fun.

As to the topic at hand, I don't think you're likely to find anyone who thinks they're good enough to charge people for DMing who isn't a total douche canoe.

Mr Beer
2018-07-17, 06:23 PM
I'd find it difficult to arbitrate against a player who was paying me a wage to DM for them. I currently obtain positional authority by running the game and also owning the property we play in.

That said, I'm sure you can find DMs willing to run games if you pay them. There are some problems with that I can see:

- Finding DMs who are good fit for you at a reasonable price, so for example I would have been a lot more tempted to DM for minimum wage as a full time job when I was aged 16 to 21.

- Finding other players who are willing to chip in. You will either be the only guy who is actually paying the DM or playing solo in some scenarios.

- Gamers are generally more comfortable with a quid pro quo than outright wages e.g. snacks, pizza, drinks, shared expenses (dues), shared or loaned game equipment etc.

TekHed
2018-07-17, 06:27 PM
Shared snacks don't work over PbP, even if I wasn't on a diet. :smallwink:

As I said I have found a few pro DMs in different cities but so far none for PbP. So it IS out there.

zlefin
2018-07-17, 06:28 PM
iirc there was someone on these forums awhile back who did some pro dm'ing and talked about it a bit. not sure though.

It's certainly potentially doable; but as with many artistic endeavors, the earnings are really slim and it's a lot of work. Hard to live off of.

Might be a bit more feasible as a side job thing much like some of this "gig economy" stuff.

mostly I think there's just not enough of a market for it. Not that many people willing to pay enough for it to be something you can live on. (plus of course enough non-paid play sources that the competition decreases what you could get).

TekHed
2018-07-17, 06:29 PM
I'm not suggesting it be someone's only income. Just a side gig.

If non-paid DMs were common enough at the level I want to play at I wouldn't even need to ask...

zlefin
2018-07-17, 06:39 PM
a side gig is still competing with other things people can do as a side gig, so it still requires a fair bit of money. and really, a side gig is still going to charge wages close to what a low end job would; it still has to be worth their time after all.

I'd say the main thing is to first find a group of players all willing to pay. The real trick would be that you say you're looking for some of the less common game types/settings; which means finding one of those is further limiting the number of people who might be willing to join in on a payment plan.

while various sunk cost fallacies and such will ensure somewhat less attrition than for a standard game, there could still be a lot of attrition.

there's also a question of which payment model to use;

Darth Ultron
2018-07-17, 07:54 PM
Since we are so used to paying for other entertainment, and since PbP DMs (and players) can often be flaky, why not hire a professional?

Would you consider paying? How much?

What do you all think? I'd love to have a discussion about it, and also if anyone knows any promising candidates, I have as mentioned several game ideas I really would like to find a DM for...

I real life, I have done this for Years. I guess that makes me a professional DM.

I charge per game...$100 to $500, plus each player pays a set amount into a supplies pool and a food pool(often something like $25 to start, then like $10 a game).

I run a very fast paced, very serious, very extreme ''Hard Fun'' type game with a ton of comedy and references to everything.

And, amazingly, someone who payed $100 to play in the game...shows up on time and is ready to play 100%...and then never, ever, ever, pull out their phone and say something stupid like ''lets watch some dumb YouTube videos for like three hours".

It makes a fine side job.

TekHed
2018-07-17, 08:00 PM
How would you translate that to PbP Darth Ultron?

Illven
2018-07-17, 08:07 PM
I real life, I have done this for Years. I guess that makes me a professional DM.

I charge per game...$100 to $500, plus each player pays a set amount into a supplies pool and a food pool(often something like $25 to start, then like $10 a game).

I run a very fast paced, very serious, very extreme ''Hard Fun'' type game with a ton of comedy and references to everything.

And, amazingly, someone who payed $100 to play in the game...shows up on time and is ready to play 100%...and then never, ever, ever, pull out their phone and say something stupid like ''lets watch some dumb YouTube videos for like three hours".

It makes a fine side job.

So each player in a slightly above standard party, may have to pay 135 for the first game, and 110 after? Or is this 500 for a full campaign set?

Telonius
2018-07-17, 10:24 PM
Every once in a while this topic comes up, and it's usually the same few points made on both sides. DMing is something that people tend to give away for free. It's hard to beat that price point, unless you're giving an experience that really is completely different (and that somebody else couldn't give without making a significant investment), or if you're in an area where not many people are gaming. Hard is not impossible; but it's a rare thing for it to work.

Darth Ultron
2018-07-17, 10:52 PM
So each player in a slightly above standard party, may have to pay 135 for the first game, and 110 after? Or is this 500 for a full campaign set?

Per game session. So $100 per player for me.
$25 supply pool first time, then $5 a game session.
$25 food pool, then $10 a game session. I pay this too.

For supply's and food you can substitute things for money.


How would you translate that to PbP Darth Ultron?

Well, once a mouth is way too long, but $100 a month with $25 a week sounds about right.

TekHed
2018-07-17, 11:39 PM
Wow, $500 per session. Or $400-$500 per player per month?

Props to you, but where do you live where the market will support that?

I was thinking I'd be personally down to pay $20/$25 a month for a committed, reliable, DM who really understands the system, to the point where home brew or custom tweaks doesn't phase them because they just tinker encounters to match, and solid storytelling chops. I'd want to set expectations up front of course. As was noted above a DM needs to feel like they have the authority to make rulings, but ideally such things don't need to come up in the first place because things like house rules and edge cases have been discussed up front. Style has to be agreed upon as well, not just writing style, which is of supreme importance in PbP, but also things like challenge, possible character death, etc. of which there can be a great many variables. As I mentioned in my first post it's not a lack of DMs online here on the playground, I'm usually not interested in the games presented. I tend to think in terms of character first game second, though it isn't always the case. Most of the games I'm in now are either games I requested and did find DMs for or games I saw advertised and thought, that would be perfect for x character in my roster.

I'm sure it might be a challenge to find players to join me but given the fall off and attrition rate of DMs and players I feel like having some skin in the game would make everyone much more committed.

EccentricCircle
2018-07-18, 06:12 AM
I think one problem would be knowing when to charge and when not.

I am told that I'm a good GM, and try to make the games I run a quality "product". Thus, in principle, I wouldn't be opposed to the idea of doing it professionally. I can see the appeal of being hired by a group of players to run a game for them, and it would probably be fairly enjoyable even if it were work.

However I wouldn't want to do that instead of running the games I currently do. Therein lies a problem. I wouldn't want to suddenly start charging the people who have been coming back to my games for years. I wouldn't want to stop running games at my local gaming club, where charging an entry fee would be right out!

However, would it be fair to have effectively a double standard where some people are getting the service for free, while others are paying a fee? Maybe that's fine if its a group of long time friends getting special treatment, vs people I don't know paying for a service. However I can see it being awkward if the customers find out.

I don't know about you, but I don't think I could run a game for people for any length of time and not become friends with them. I run open games at my local club, often meeting people for the first time. However after a few games many of those people become good friends and start coming to my home games. So what happens when a paying customer "graduates" to being a close friend and wants to join the free group? Would they still continue in the paying group, or would I effectively lose a customer?

Plus I would have to prioritise my customers over the people I was gaming with casually. Would that mean that the people I didn't know or care about were getting the better experience, whereas the people who I wanted to game with were suffering as a result of my "career" choice?

I'm sure that these issues wouldn't be insurmountable, so long as everyone knows where they stand. However I don't know I would have the professional detachment to do it. I'd be interested to see what others think.

Epimethee
2018-07-18, 06:48 AM
I did just that for a few years, but in a specific frame as the game (in a fantasy setting) was linked to the work of a psychologist.

It was really interesting in many ways but the amount of work was huge, not only the game but also all the related formalities, and in the end I would have made more working in any fast food.

One of the problem is the right number of players: you need a critical amount of guys to give them a fair price and pay your expenses. We were often more than 12 around the table, based on the rentability of the event. As you play with more peoples, you have less time for each of them so you cannot go as deep as you or they wish.
It was fine for children, but really difficult to equilibrate for adults.

Another problem is the time. Even a one shot necessitate a few hours. And you wish to play a campaign, if only to keep the interest of the players. But it is hard to obtain a complete group of players willing to go all the way with you before the first session. And in a commercial setting you would have frequently someone who left the table or a new customer to drop in the middle of a running campaign. So you have to choose your stories carefully, to keep the regular players but not to exclude any new participant.

Ideally, you need the rarest customers, with time and money, and already educated to roleplaying game, so they agree to pay a right amount of money for a performance of a few hours in a small group. And those guys usually play already. It is really harder to draw and keep new players in such a setting. Too low a price mean either that you lose money, or that you play with too many peoples to really have the time necessary for a deep gaming experience but if the price is too high nobody would come.

So practically it is really hard to achieve in a true commercial sense.

Knaight
2018-07-18, 07:04 AM
Wow, $500 per session. Or $400-$500 per player per month?

Props to you, but where do you live where the market will support that?

I was thinking I'd be personally down to pay $20/$25 a month for a committed, reliable, DM who really understands the system, to the point where home brew or custom tweaks doesn't phase them because they just tinker encounters to match, and solid storytelling chops. I'd want to set expectations up front of course. As was noted above a DM needs to feel like they have the authority to make rulings, but ideally such things don't need to come up in the first place because things like house rules and edge cases have been discussed up front.

This post is a pretty good example of why it's unfeasible. $25 a month is equivalent to 2 hours of my time right now, as a student who has yet to finish their degree and is working a manual labor job, who is rounding that time up. Say that there's five players, and it's $125 a month, and you've got 10 hours a month. That's about 20 minutes a day, which is an unrealistic schedule for even PbP GMing, between writing time and prep time. Free is one thing, it's a hobby being treated as one. If money's getting brought in though, it needs to be more than that, and people generally aren't willing to pay it.

The time scale gets worse when you consider that the paid experience basically needs to be significantly better than the free experience, which means more prep and writing time.

Nifft
2018-07-18, 07:35 AM
There's one argument I've seen which might be applicable to DM-for-money situations:

If people pay for a thing, they seem to value it more, and thus may put a higher priority on showing up for the game.

So a price that feels expensive to the players has value to the DM (and to the group) in that players who show up regularly & on time are going to waste less of everyone else's time. The actual amount of money which reaches the DM is irrelevant -- so long as it feels sufficiently expensive to each player, there is a potential for positive value, simply by virtue of being an expensive event.

The fact of paying may even focus player attention on the game, sine it may "legitimize" the game -- and allow it to compete better for brain-share against email / fantasy football / whatever phone app.

Durzan
2018-07-18, 08:02 AM
Honestly, the best way to do it is to just shop around for a free GM on Roll20 or Fantasy Grounds, and then offer to tip them as a way to sweeten the deal and encourage them to continue to GM for you. So long as they keep hosting the game every (Insert regular time schedule here), and you and your buddies have fun, give them $5 or so. If you feel like they've done a real good job, give them an extra $5 to $10.

This covers the monthly cost of a pro subscription for Roll20 and encourages a GM to stick with it, without forcing you to shell out a lot of money, or make it seem as though your money is wasted.

Anonymouswizard
2018-07-18, 08:08 AM
Wow, it's this thread again.

Essentially, the problem with paid GMing is the time investment. Most GMs probably spend about an hour prepping for an hour running, I've run session on a lot less but they weren't as good.

So let's assume that I want to make money equivalent to half of what I earn as a kitchen assistant. Rounding to a rough number I get £1200 a month (varying based on actual hours worked). If I charge at minimum wage (£7.50/hour) per hour of game time, and a session lasts four hours on average I have to run about (1200/(7.50*4)=1200/30=300/10=)30 sessions in four weeks just to break even. That's more than one session a day.

So to get that to a reasonable number for a full time job while still giving me time off on a standard day I can do three things. 1) charge the entrance fee per player (which brings us down to 7.5 sessions in four weeks). 2) charge for prep time (probably getting us to 15 sessions in four weeks). 3) reuse the same material for multiple sessions. In practice you're probably doing all three.

Then you have material costs. About 90% of people willing to pay will expect professional quality maps and miniatures, probably tailored to the adventure. Maybe even 3D terrain. If you're doing it professionally you probably won't be hosting in your living room, so chances are you'll have to pay for space. Most of these are solved if playing on Roll20 or the like.


The end result is that professional GMs are people who are good enough to pull off entertaining stories, potentially have some sort of gimmick people like (such as being able to move between different rooms styled to look like different settings), and are very lucky. You might find some GMs that charge for services without it being their main job, but you'll find that most of the time it's done sporadically, in a 'I need to buy a new adventure, chip in guys' fashion.

Blu
2018-07-18, 08:26 AM
There's one argument I've seen which might be applicable to DM-for-money situations:

If people pay for a thing, they seem to value it more, and thus may put a higher priority on showing up for the game.

So a price that feels expensive to the players has value to the DM (and to the group) in that players who show up regularly & on time are going to waste less of everyone else's time. The actual amount of money which reaches the DM is irrelevant -- so long as it feels sufficiently expensive to each player, there is a potential for positive value, simply by virtue of being an expensive event.

The fact of paying may even focus player attention on the game, sine it may "legitimize" the game -- and allow it to compete better for brain-share against email / fantasy football / whatever phone app.

Another argument could be made that the players could also be more toxic towards the cooperative nature of the game. Since those players now are also customers, you also need to catter to their needs since you don't want to have unhappy customers.
And now that you are paying you would care way more seriously about your personal enjoyment and should conflict arise, you can't count on compromise from those players, so people wouldn't care too much for the group or the DM, the only thing that matters is making your money and time worth it. I honestly believe that if i was paying to play i would become toxic, i would demand the DM to entertain me and would complain when i didn't like one sudden turn on the plot.
The argument for the quality of the games also stands, now players would expect a lot more on the table, that is also because of the time consuming nature of d&d, if you sink 4~5 hours playing a game it might as well be worth it, if you add money to the equation the odds just stack against the DM.

I also think it can harm the DM's enjoyment of the game. Now he needs to catter to the needs and likings of his players, each one of them, to the exclusion of his owns. There are cases where the DM's might find players that like things similar to himself, but that would be rare.

As a sidenote, books are also expensive, so having to pay for them and also have to pay to play can kill the financial viability of the thing.

All in all, i don't believe turning d&d into a service works with the nature and proposal of the game.

2D8HP
2018-07-18, 09:37 AM
Wow, it's this thread again.....


It is, but from a different angle.

The previous threads that I've seen on this topic (though with the Forum being almost 15 years old (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?9014-Test) I'm sure there's many I haven't seen) have been from DM's seeing if there's a paying market for their services, this is the first I've seen from a wannabe customer.

Oh, one correction to part of the original post:

...I'm sure part of it has to do with the misguided exodus to 4e and 5e Wotc D&D from 3.5e TSR D&D.....


If your going to bemoan "misguided" edition changes, why start so late? :tongue:

Kardwill
2018-07-18, 10:06 AM
Lately it has been proving to be MUCH harder than I remember to find a DM willing to take on such bespoke concepts, who will allow homebrew for example, and most of the games I see being advertised are too low in level, too high in level (level 30, level 100 etc.) or are otherwise unsuitable for the many inspired characters I have dreaming of life through play.

That might be a point where finding a professional GM would be harder in your case than in most people's : If you're very specific in what you want to play, then to cater to your tastes, the GM would need to recruit a paying player pool with the same preferences. He'll need specific players, specific games and expansions, specific adventures... The more specific your gaming tastes, the more unlikely you'll find a service you'd be willing to pay for. It's a little like hiring a hiking tour guide, but asking for a trek that is not in his catalog : not impossible, but unlikely unless you're ready to pay an unreasonable sum.

I know only one professional GM that says he's been pretty successful at it, but the guy doesn't do custom stuff : He wrote (and sells) his own game, created and fine-tuned a few dozen adventures, and nowadays he offers to come as an animator to conventions, schools, seminars, even prisons. And a big part of his success comes from it : It's HIS game, and it ensured him a well earned fame, meaning he has no trouble finding players, but it also means he's won't take commands for other games, as he's not as confortable with them.

Anonymouswizard
2018-07-18, 10:27 AM
It is, but from a different angle.

The previous threads that I've seen on this topic (though with the Forum being almost 15 years old (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?9014-Test) I'm sure there's many I haven't seen) have been from DM's seeing if there's a paying market for their services, this is the first I've seen from a wannabe customer.

Well sure, although I think I've seen it from this angle once before (might have been a year or two ago).

The thing is, the problem is the same from either end. Most players aren't willing to pay the £30+ per session that likely would be required for somebody to do it as their job, and honestly unless you're in a big city with a large enough roleplaying scene you aren't likely to be getting enough customers to survive on that, driving the price up again.

Now I also remember from some previous threads that a couple of people have managed to get paid GM gigs, but IIRC most of those are of the 'one person in the group is significantly more wealthy than the others and is willing to pay' type. Few people get the Darth Ultron style of paying $100 per player per session, although now I know he's managed to pull that off his vocal support of his GMing style makes a lot more sense.

Jay R
2018-07-18, 11:22 AM
No interest. Even if you could make it work, you won't get the DMs whose games I want to play.

My last several really good DMs have been a tech writer, an independent contractor, a history teacher, and a naval officer (plus a statistical consultant, if you accept that I am competent). You simply couldn’t hire any of us for hobby-level money.

By contrast, the last two average-to-below-average DMs I’ve had are currently looking for jobs.

Really competent DMs can:

1. Plan projects
2. Write well
3. Solve problems
4. Improvise quickly
5. Keep a group of people invested, under control, and focused on a single goal
6. Communicate well, in both directions.

These people can usually make better money elsewhere than DMing is likely to pay.

Anonymouswizard
2018-07-18, 12:24 PM
A thought.

The only kind of professional GMing that might bring in enough money to be worthwhile is the entire 'stream an RPG session' thing, and there you'd essentially have to split everything between four or more people, so if you want to make enough money to survive on just it you would likely have to aggressively monetise and be more popular than Critical Role combined with Critical Role and Critical Role.

But if your entire group can perform for a camera, enjoys doing so, you have an interesting game, and you don't care about how much money is coming in then it might be an interesting thing to do. You'll never make that much money off of it, but using Patreon or something similar you could probably make it so that the group isn't losing money per episode.

Darth Ultron
2018-07-18, 02:11 PM
Wow, $500 per session. Or $400-$500 per player per month?

Per session. Though admittedly this is for very hard core gamers that want to spend a whole day gaming, 6am to 12am, with a morning and afternoon break. A more typical like six hour game is only like $150. Depending on how 'good' a game people want....people will pay for a good game.



Props to you, but where do you live where the market will support that?

America. It's not ''that much" money compared to doing other things. You go see a band, play, or sports event...you are likely to spend $100, maybe just for tickets...plus parking and other things.



I was thinking I'd be personally down to pay $20/$25 a month

It sounds a bit low...you want the DM to do everything perfect for a whole month...and then you will judge if you want to pay?



As was noted above a DM needs to feel like they have the authority to make rulings, but ideally such things don't need to come up in the first place because things like house rules and edge cases have been discussed up front. Style has to be agreed upon as well, not just writing style, which is of supreme importance in PbP, but also things like challenge, possible character death, etc. of which there can be a great many variables.

There are lots of variables to talk about ahead of time. For a good game, you really need everyone on the same page. In real life I do day long session zeros.

Though as DM I make rulings in the game, and the players have no say...and must accept that to play.



I'm sure it might be a challenge to find players to join me but given the fall off and attrition rate of DMs and players I feel like having some skin in the game would make everyone much more committed.

I've never tried it online. But even for a quick game like ''the players want to kill a dragon'', I'd charge $100 ($25 a player). I have found that player that pay, will play the game. They won't sit around on their phone or wander off.



I don't know about you, but I don't think I could run a game for people for any length of time and not become friends with them. I run open games at my local club, often meeting people for the first time. However after a few games many of those people become good friends and start coming to my home games. So what happens when a paying customer "graduates" to being a close friend and wants to join the free group? Would they still continue in the paying group, or would I effectively lose a customer?


I never saw this as a problem. People hire friends all the time. You don't (or should not) expect a friend to do things for free or even at a discount, if it is something worth the time to do.

Think of car repairs. Does your best friend mechanic do your car repairs for free? Maybe..but likely not, but they will still charge less then a store. But you would not expect a friend to do $500 of work on your car for free, right? How about being a DJ, or making a cake or any other such activity that takes lots of time and effort?

Satinavian
2018-07-18, 02:20 PM
I'm ALSO at a point in my gaming career (if one would call it such) that low-level, bog-standard games just aren't as appealing. Usually I'm inspired to play specific characters or builds that usually entail one or more of the following: higher than standard starting level, specific house rules such as point buy or Pathfinder feat progression, or in games like MnM starting out with more PP per PL, or using homebrew classes, races, etc. In some cases my concepts are best suited for solo play for one reason or another, and almost always my character inspirations are tied to a specific setting, or style of game.

I'm no DM/GM myself. I've tried my hand at it over the years and I'm just not good at it. I'm GREAT at world-building on a big scale, coming up with story concepts and game ideas, but I'm just missing something when it comes to the finer points of actually executing a plot within the worlds I dream up and the minutiae of creating and portraying NPCs and running well-balanced combat encounters. Moreover I just don't enjoy it. I'm much better when it comes to inhabiting the single point of view of a PC than trying to run the whole world, even when it's a world I've dreamed up.

Honestly, if i had no interest to run for your taste for free, i would not run it for (small) money either. I only DM stuff i enjoy enough to DM.

Also, world-building on a big scale is not something a lot of GMs think to lack. Either they really enjoy it and want to use their own worlds or they use a setting they like and are really familiar with. It is slightly better with story concepts as a GM needs more stories than Worlds and many occassionally need an inspiration.

If you can't really fascinate me with your setting, i won't use it.

TekHed
2018-07-18, 04:14 PM
Wow lots of replies...

A blanket response to something I keep seeing stated, I wasn't suggesting the idea as a full-time gig, but more of a "make some money on the side from something you'd do anyway."

Lots of good arguments on either side though.


This post is a pretty good example of why it's unfeasible. $25 a month is equivalent to 2 hours of my time right now, as a student who has yet to finish their degree and is working a manual labor job, who is rounding that time up. Say that there's five players, and it's $125 a month, and you've got 10 hours a month. That's about 20 minutes a day, which is an unrealistic schedule for even PbP GMing, between writing time and prep time. Free is one thing, it's a hobby being treated as one. If money's getting brought in though, it needs to be more than that, and people generally aren't willing to pay it.

If you were going to run a game for five players anyway would you rather make no dollars for the time or $125 for the time? Keep in mind as a DM in PbP you may only need to write big DM posts say twice a week with sporadic little short replies as needed that only take a few minutes. If you're a good/prolific writer it's not that hard; the biggest time sink is in the prep for combat, designing and updating/uploading maps etc.


Honestly, the best way to do it is to just shop around for a free GM on Roll20 or Fantasy Grounds, and then offer to tip them as a way to sweeten the deal and encourage them to continue to GM for you. So long as they keep hosting the game every (Insert regular time schedule here), and you and your buddies have fun, give them $5 or so. If you feel like they've done a real good job, give them an extra $5 to $10.

I just created an account on Roll20 as I found a pro DM them and PMed them, but they haven't been active for a couple years. I also posted an ad in looking for games, but no bites just yet.


If your going to bemoan "misguided" edition changes, why start so late?


While I started with AD&D2e I feel like 3.5 is the most refined and broadly supported edition.


It sounds a bit low...you want the DM to do everything perfect for a whole month...and then you will judge if you want to pay?


Four or five players that's $100-$125 per month for a PbP game. I'd assume payment up front.


I never saw this as a problem. People hire friends all the time. You don't (or should not) expect a friend to do things for free or even at a discount, if it is something worth the time to do.


Indeed I have friends who have become clients and clients who have become friends. It's a good life I'd say!


Honestly, if i had no interest to run for your taste for free, i would not run it for (small) money either. I only DM stuff i enjoy enough to DM.

Also, world-building on a big scale is not something a lot of GMs think to lack. Either they really enjoy it and want to use their own worlds or they use a setting they like and are really familiar with. It is slightly better with story concepts as a GM needs more stories than Worlds and many occassionally need an inspiration.

If you can't really fascinate me with your setting, i won't use it.

I have a two or three settings I've made, and one that a GM is actually running a game in!

Mainly what I meant by setting is specific DnD settings or scenarios...

For example, some of my game ideas:

- Level 15 Eberron game, Homebrew class, pathfinder feats, skill merges and some other tweaks.
- Level 20 Tristalt Solo Spelljammer game
- Level 20 Gestalt Plansecape Solo game with some modified homebrew Tome classes.
- Level 13 Eberron Gestalt game
- Mutants and Masterminds 3e, MCU inspired villain game PL 12 240 PP
- Mutants and Masterminds 3e, PL 10, 200 Points using the Aberrant Setting, specifically an Elites or Aberrant faction game
- Mutants and Masterminds PL 12 Solo game, normal PP but in a cyberpunk style setting

etc. etc.

...as you can see all rather specific requests that most of the games advertised on the site aren't really suited for adaptation to.

Anonymouswizard
2018-07-18, 05:05 PM
Honestly? I'd rather have the no money and no feeling responsibility due to selling a service.

That it's a 'side gig' rather than a main job kind of doesn't matter, the question is still 'is the money worth my time as a service'. Assuming in person, four hours of game+four hours of prep I'd be looking at an absolute minimum of £60 a game, but that's just a starting point. If I was in a position where I had a better job that would easily increase to £100+ a game (game time, prep time, likely travel, room hire, food, miniatures, maps, and other potential equipment), but at a certain point you might be getting me to order pizza as well as providing snacks.

Online it gets even muddier. For a Roll20 game if I was charging it would probably come out to basic game and prep rate plus Pro subscription, plus a token 'using my internet' charge.

For PbP? Maybe 1p a word :smalltongue: in all seriousness probably more than £25 a month, sure to the awkwardness of the format, can't really give an exact figure.

To run a specific game requested by a player would be an additional charge for annoyance and restrictions, plus the cost of any books or other materials that are required but that I don't own.

High level 3.P Eberron is the sort of thing that I'd just refuse. Vikings using Savage Worlds is something you could probably get for no actual charge.

All of this is hypothetical of course, I'm not interested in running for money, because then the stress increases several times and it's just not fun anymore. I don't know about the other GMs here, but I run games to have fun, and if it's not fun then I'd rather not fun it. Giving up £200 a session is more than worth the reduced stress.

Nifft
2018-07-18, 05:18 PM
Honestly? I'd rather have the no money and no feeling responsibility due to selling a service.

Maybe you're not selling a service. Maybe you're pooling resources in order to communally support everyone's game.

You might charge $100 a person (per night / month / season / XP milestone), but you use that money to support the game -- possibly including game-oriented improvements to the venue, if the game happens at your home. Install a wide-screen monitor in a table; do gaming maps on that screen. Install a projector for maps or online visuals. Either would be a thing you own, but they also enjoy, and everyone can help pay for it together. Maybe you also pay for a babysitter so your kids don't interrupt the game, improving the experience for all the players. Maybe you commission custom maps or artwork -- art of the characters doing plot-relevant things, with plot-relevant details that only you (the DM) know will be important later, or even art of villains & locations. Some campaign mapping software isn't free. Etc.


I would never try to DM for profit -- the sort of payscale that seems possible just wouldn't be enough -- but there might be some value in pooling resources, even if it's not going to cover the cost of my time. That's okay, since I'm doing this stuff for fun. None the less, costs for things other than my time could be shared.

Also, pooling resources for mutual benefit seems like a less confrontation-provoking perspective than "charging for a service".

Anonymouswizard
2018-07-18, 05:25 PM
Ah, but in my mind pooling resources would be more like 'guys I've got an idea, can everybody spare £200 so I can install a flat screen gaming table' (this will never happen if I continue to live in London). Maybe asking for some money every week if there was a service I had to get every week would make sense, but there isn't (partially due to me being in my twenties and not gaming with people with children). Then there's throwing into the takeout pot, which when I've done it has always just been a case of 'put the money in when you order, bit only if you get something'.

Very different to charging £100 per session.

Darth Ultron
2018-07-18, 06:18 PM
Maybe you're not selling a service. Maybe you're pooling resources in order to communally support everyone's game.


I do both. Pay for myself and pay for the game supplies and food.

Mr Beer
2018-07-18, 06:33 PM
I know only one professional GM that says he's been pretty successful at it, but the guy doesn't do custom stuff : He wrote (and sells) his own game, created and fine-tuned a few dozen adventures, and nowadays he offers to come as an animator to conventions, schools, seminars, even prisons. And a big part of his success comes from it : It's HIS game, and it ensured him a well earned fame, meaning he has no trouble finding players, but it also means he's won't take commands for other games, as he's not as confortable with them.

I was going to try and articulate the issue I personally see with being a pro DM and this example illustrates it perfectly. Essentially the only way to make your prep-time cost effective and also not incredibly draining is to be able to re-cycle your work, like a professional teacher does. So you have to find some way to be able to rotate groups.

Of course if you have the spare time and it's like your main hobby, a Darth Ultron-type set up sounds like a sweet gig. Not for me, but I can see the appeal.

Knaight
2018-07-18, 07:08 PM
A blanket response to something I keep seeing stated, I wasn't suggesting the idea as a full-time gig, but more of a "make some money on the side from something you'd do anyway."
...
If you were going to run a game for five players anyway would you rather make no dollars for the time or $125 for the time? Keep in mind as a DM in PbP you may only need to write big DM posts say twice a week with sporadic little short replies as needed that only take a few minutes. If you're a good/prolific writer it's not that hard; the biggest time sink is in the prep for combat, designing and updating/uploading maps etc.

First things first - your core concept here involves paying someone to run something specific, because they otherwise wouldn't. So I'm getting paid $125 instead of $0 to go from running something I want to run that's getting treated as a hobby by all involved, to running something I don't want to run with the added stress of it getting treated as a job. I already have a job, it pays significantly better (and again, not hugely well), and I like it a great deal more than doing combat prep, designing and updating/uploading maps, and a great deal of the time sinks swept into that "etc."

Is $125 a month enough for me to transfer a hobby I enjoy to a job I don't like? No. I'd rather just drop the hobby entirely and pick up more hours.

TekHed
2018-07-18, 11:25 PM
High level 3.P Eberron is the sort of thing that I'd just refuse.

Out of curiosity, is it the high level that is the issue, the Eberron setting in general, or is there something specific about high level AND Eberron together that makes it unappealing? Would you run a low level Eberron? A high level Forgotten Realms? Why that combo?

I think Eberron is the game I most want to add to my current games. I love the setting so much and have had a lot of fun in the past. Currently I'm playing in Ravenloft, Dark Sun, Planescape and a semi-homebrew setting based on the lore and info from the Book of Nine Swords. Eberron is just the kind of high-adventure/pulp/noir/magipunk flavor I'm missing. :)


First things first - your core concept here involves paying someone to run something specific, because they otherwise wouldn't. So I'm getting paid $125 instead of $0 to go from running something I want to run that's getting treated as a hobby by all involved, to running something I don't want to run with the added stress of it getting treated as a job. I already have a job, it pays significantly better (and again, not hugely well), and I like it a great deal more than doing combat prep, designing and updating/uploading maps, and a great deal of the time sinks swept into that "etc."

Is $125 a month enough for me to transfer a hobby I enjoy to a job I don't like? No. I'd rather just drop the hobby entirely and pick up more hours.

(Emphasis mine) If that's your interpretation then you definitely have the wrong idea. It would be futile to have a DM run something they hate; I'd never want that. I'd only be interested in hiring someone enthusiastic about the job, just like any profession; you want to work with someone who is not only good at what they do but LOVES doing it.

I think it's not about hiring someone to do something they wouldn't do otherwise, I think I'm just frustrated because I have some specific ideas that I'd love to play through, none of the recent offerings will fit the characters I'm passionate about playing, and really...

It just seems odd that in order to get a game going you have to find a forum like this that has a huge enough population, hang out an ad, and hope and pray that maybe the right person will see it. I've used the DM registry to mixed results over the years, but it just seems odd for me that in this day and age, there isn't some vast database of DMs one can connect with online for the running of games.

The money doesn't even need to enter into it, and the main reason I mentioned that as one idea for discussion is because even when I HAVE found willing and able DMs, they can sometimes be flaky, even ghosting without notice, and it seems like a professional service would raise the bar for all involved and just maybe we'd get more out of it.

I realize that the main critics in this post are more of the tabletop, have fun with your friends type of folks, and that's fine but one of the reasons I favor PbP is the level of immersion one gets from the unadulterated story without the sweaty cheetos and random out of character Monty Python quotes taking me out of the story.

Knaight
2018-07-18, 11:39 PM
The money doesn't even need to enter into it, and the main reason I mentioned that as one idea for discussion is because even when I HAVE found willing and able DMs, they can sometimes be flaky, even ghosting without notice, and it seems like a professional service would raise the bar for all involved and just maybe we'd get more out of it.

Bolding mine.

This is roughly the issue here - raising that bar involves some serious DM side time investment, and as it's paid that extra time investment beyond what they do anyways is a job. A low paying job that probably isn't that fun, as if they had time for this and haven't been doing it anyways it suggests that it just isn't that fun. If they don't have time for this the extra $125 a month probably isn't going to be enough of an incentive for them to make that time - though these being internet games and not local might actually make a difference here, in that you might be able to outsource your DMing to somewhere in the developing world where that $125 goes a lot further and could at least partially replace more conventional jobs. This does assume that you're good with the ethics there.

TekHed
2018-07-18, 11:55 PM
You seem to have a very negative mindset about DMing...not sure where that is coming from.

By raising the bar I'm talking about things like...not just starting a game and then flaking out or even ghosting with no word. The most egregious version of that is a GM who came in to rescue a game I was in whose GM bailed on us midway through. He was gung ho and boasted about having X number of chapters all outlined and within the first page of posting he stopped replying to us. He still posted around the forums as was visible in his profile but he totally ignored any ooc posts and even PMs asking for a status update...he didn't even have the courtesy to come in and tell us he was quitting.

THAT is the bar I want to raise.

It seems like you think gaming is somehow work and not fun. Meanwhile I have a couple DMs who rarely even play because they just enjoy being on the other side of the screen and mostly just run games.

Paid or not, there seems to be something missing in the matchmaking available on the internet...

Knaight
2018-07-19, 12:03 AM
You seem to have a very negative mindset about DMing...not sure where that is coming from.
I don't have a negative mindset about DMing. I have a negative mindset about doing paid DMing for cheap, and I think I've explained where that comes from.


It seems like you think gaming is somehow work and not fun. Meanwhile I have a couple DMs who rarely even play because they just enjoy being on the other side of the screen and mostly just run games.
I'm one of those people - I have a lot of fun GMing, I basically never play RPGs as a player and am totally fine with that (I could see liking to bump the GM-player ratio a little, by which I mean going from 99-1 to 95-5 or something). That said, it's the sort of fun that has creative work embedded in it, which isn't a problem when it's my creative work that I personally care about. Paying players with their inevitable demands? The tedium of cranking up production quality on digital props? That part is just work.

I'm working on the assumption that the GMs GMing for free, in their free time, are already doing all the prep work and similar that they want to do in that free time. If we wanted to do more, we'd, you know, do that. That part that people are choosing not to do, specifically? That part is work.

TekHed
2018-07-19, 12:09 AM
Would you have objections to DMing a game for a player like myself with specific requests around setting, general character goals, and character creation rules?

ChamHasNoRoom
2018-07-19, 12:16 AM
I do this (https://chamomilehasa.blog/gmservices/). I can confirm that even at the current discount, $25/month is not something I would even consider for running custom content that will require time to prepare. Current rates would be $20/week and you can expect them to rise in the near future, because my time slots are getting bought out in a hurry at that rate.

Knaight
2018-07-19, 12:20 AM
Would you have objections to DMing a game for a player like myself with specific requests around setting, general character goals, and character creation rules?

If these requests came with the added gravity of money? Absolutely. Otherwise it depends on the requests. Requests on a setting that come down to "use an existing commercial setting" are going to get a hard no, character goals and creation rules are far more flexible. The specific ones in your particular case are also a dealbreaker, though that's mostly because I'm pretty unwilling to run any edition of D&D, and certainly don't want to run Pathfinder in particular.

TekHed
2018-07-19, 12:24 AM
I'm interested in 3.5 not Pathfinder though with some tweaks that Pathfinder uses. It's still DnD though.

What's your beef with published settings?

TekHed
2018-07-19, 12:50 AM
I do this (https://chamomilehasa.blog/gmservices/). I can confirm that even at the current discount, $25/month is not something I would even consider for running custom content that will require time to prepare. Current rates would be $20/week and you can expect them to rise in the near future, because my time slots are getting bought out in a hurry at that rate.

I was thinking like $20-25 per person per month, so total of $80-$125 depending on number of players.

I PMed you, your service sounds awesome. :)

Anonymouswizard
2018-07-19, 01:12 AM
I'm interested in 3.5 not Pathfinder though with some tweaks that Pathfinder uses. It's still DnD though.

Pathfinder is 3.5, if you play any games other than D&D you'll realise that this is true.

It's not a 3.75, it's 3.5 but with a bunch of houseruled.

If somebody who runs other systems almost exclusively, whether that's FUDGE, GURPS, Savage Worlds, Unknown Armies, Traveller, Rogue Trader, or any of the large number of systems out there, then they might not want to run D&D.

If you ask me the mistake was moving back to D&D after a period where other games were on top.


What's your beef with published settings?

Knaight likes to run the settings he builds. He doesn't like to run published settings.

Is there something wrong with t? Sorry answer is no, even if you were paying him.

ChamHasNoRoom
2018-07-19, 01:22 AM
I was thinking like $20-25 per person per month, so total of $80-$125 depending on number of players.

I PMed you, your service sounds awesome. :)

That's contingent on other people actually wanting to pay money to play your concept campaign, which is unlikely to happen, and would also represent less than half of what I'd usually get paid for a group of that size. PbP is only slightly less time intensive than live play, particularly when players are paying for the game and thus motivated to actually check the thread and respond daily (or more). I'm not offering a 50% discount on it on top of the 33% I already offer right now.

TekHed
2018-07-19, 01:22 AM
I didn't say it was wrong. I was just curious why. :smallsmile:

It is funny that people seem to be getting emotional about even the question. Or maybe tone just doesn't translate well over text, but the negativity feels strong at times. :smallconfused:

TekHed
2018-07-19, 01:24 AM
That's contingent on other people actually wanting to pay money to play your concept campaign, which is unlikely to happen, and would also represent less than half of what I'd usually get paid for a group of that size. PbP is only slightly less time intensive than live play, particularly when players are paying for the game and thus motivated to actually check the thread and respond daily (or more). I'm not offering a 50% discount on it on top of the 33% I already offer right now.

You quoted $20/week before which is $80 per month or did you mean $20 per person per week?

ChamHasNoRoom
2018-07-19, 01:37 AM
The rates are per player, yes.

Satinavian
2018-07-19, 02:49 AM
- Level 15 Eberron game, Homebrew class, pathfinder feats, skill merges and some other tweaks.
- Level 20 Tristalt Solo Spelljammer game
- Level 20 Gestalt Plansecape Solo game with some modified homebrew Tome classes.
- Level 13 Eberron Gestalt game
- Mutants and Masterminds 3e, MCU inspired villain game PL 12 240 PP
- Mutants and Masterminds 3e, PL 10, 200 Points using the Aberrant Setting, specifically an Elites or Aberrant faction game
- Mutants and Masterminds PL 12 Solo game, normal PP but in a cyberpunk style setting
I would theoretically GM both Eberron games. As for the Homebrew it would still depend on the kind of homebrew. If i thing it is a ba fit and damaging the game, i would not allow it.

I would not GM Spelljammer because i really dislike it. I would not GM Planescape because i am too unfamiliar with it. I would rather not GM Solo games. I would not like to GM games starting at Lv 20, where the rules really break down and my enthusiam is even lower regarding combining LV 20 with Gestalt or Tristalt rules, I don't think i could handle the myriads of ability combinations possible. I also would not GM Mutants and Masterminds. I don't Superheroes. I don't know the system. And i wouldn't really use any D20 Variant for cyberpunk.


So yes, i would only DM two of those. But i would do them for free because i think it could be fun for me too. I wouldn't do the others even for money (unless it gets in the area of job-level money, which is more than unrealistic.)


Of course that is all very theoretical as i also vastly prefer in-person play and all my Gaming is done in my native language which is not English.


Would you have objections to DMing a game for a player like myself with specific requests around setting, general character goals, and character creation rules?Yes.

Players can request settings. But only when the GM (and enough other players) find the setting interesting, a game happens. Players can choose character goals. But only if those goals don't interfere with the intended focus of the game. If the goals require the focus of the game to be set anew, that would be only allowed, if GM and other players want to play the kind of game that would lead to.
Character creation rules ? Everyone can suggest but again, until the player convinces the whole group that this would be fun, it won't be happening.

TekHed
2018-07-19, 03:06 AM
Weeeelll...

If you're willing to run a game for free I won't say no!

I've had a lot of players express interest in my game ideas, just for lack of DM. You can check out my pitch here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?562559-3-5-Looking-for-DM-for-high-level-Eberron-adventure!).

Anonymouswizard
2018-07-19, 03:25 AM
We've finally reached the point ask if these threads end up reaching.

Although here we have the additional problem of no amount of money will make somebody run something they don't want to. Give me £1000 a session and I still wouldn't run D&D (AD&D and BD&D being a slightly different matter).

Kardwill
2018-07-19, 03:25 AM
Would you have objections to DMing a game for a player like myself with specific requests around setting, general character goals, and character creation rules?

Usually, that's what session zero is for in normal games, but I guess it's also the case with online : Everyone, including the GM, comes to the "table" and states what they will do, won't do, want to do, for rules, setting, stories, characters, and the game is built on everyone's input. But you'll have to compromise to get everyone happy, so very specific demands are harder.

"I want to run a detective story. Investigation in the 70', "murder of the week" style, using the COPS rules.
- Why the 70', and not the default 2025 setting?
- I don't want to deal with crimescene technology, databases... I prefer to keep it oldschool. Like, you need a file about an old crime, you go downstairs to check it in the archives, or you speak with the guy in charge at the time. Feels more "close and personal", more legwork than labwork, y'know?
- Not all investigation, though? Pure investigation can be reaaaally slow paced. I'd like a good chunk of action, to liven stuff up. "Starsky and Hutch" rather than "Derrick", you know?
- Oooh, and car chases? Can I play an old rally pilot? Can we use the chase rules from the "Highroad rage" supplement?
- Can we play in Boston? Always thought this city would be a cool setting for investigative, maybe paranormal stuff
- Woah, paranormal? That's quite different to what I had in mind. I can include a little mystery, but let's keep it more grounded and mundane? But sure, Boston sounds cool..."

The goal is that everyone will find the campaign "cool", even if it's not their dreamgame. Works pretty well when you have a dedicated group and a flexible GM :)

Kardwill
2018-07-19, 03:37 AM
Give me £1000 a session and I still wouldn't run D&D (AD&D and BD&D being a slightly different matter).

Well, for 1000£, and if it was 1 session only, I miiiiiight bite the bullet and dive back into that ungodly mess that is D&D3 DMing. ^^

But yeah, getting paid to play a game or a campaign I don't like doesn't sound attractive. In fact, it sounds even less attractive than doing it free "for fun". Just like doing a geology survey for work or doing a geology camp for fun are really not the same, even if the actual work can be harder for the camp.

Knaight
2018-07-19, 03:44 AM
We've finally reached the point ask if these threads end up reaching.

Although here we have the additional problem of no amount of money will make somebody run something they don't want to. Give me £1000 a session and I still wouldn't run D&D (AD&D and BD&D being a slightly different matter).

Speak for yourself - I will absolutely run something I don't like for enough money. Give me a million and I'll run a session of FATAL. A thousand for D&D? Done. I'll even pretend to have fun in the process.

Anonymouswizard
2018-07-19, 04:07 AM
Speak for yourself - I will absolutely run something I don't like for enough money. Give me a million and I'll run a session of FATAL. A thousand for D&D? Done. I'll even pretend to have fun in the process.

Honestly I might be tempted if it was a thousand plus required books, but I don't have enough free time at the moment to spend time doing something I'd dislike. If my living arrangements were more unstable than of probably do it.


But for most games I take payment in drinks. My minimum rate is one cup of tea an hour, but doing I outside somebody's home raises that to a pint.

Florian
2018-07-19, 04:35 AM
Would you have objections to DMing a game for a player like myself with specific requests around setting, general character goals, and character creation rules?

Yes, I would have. I'm a working adult and I really love to gm, but I've got to carefully husband my time and resources, which means that I only gm stuff that I know are inside my comfort zone. That means that I only gm stuff that I'm already comfortable with and know I can handle without a fuzz, including being able to just wing it at times because I know the ins and outs of the rules and settings I use.

Pleh
2018-07-19, 04:55 AM
I've always liked to imagine using an organic business model: things are worth whatever people are willing to pay, so what you need to do is find or generate demand for your product.

You fill up as much time as you can spare running games (for free, because that's the going rate). If you do well, you inspire interest for people to bid for your next game. When you lose the opportunity to serve everyone that wants to employ you, that's when you make offers to prioritize player groups that pay. If no one wants to pay, it remains first come, first serve. Everyone understands you can't be too flexible working for free, so you name a price from the getgo for what you need to be able to take time away from other things to run their game.

But you wanna keep running games as hobby in the meantime, because that's a big part of your marketing to generate interest in your product.

TekHed
2018-07-19, 04:59 AM
Yes, I would have. I'm a working adult and I really love to gm, but I've got to carefully husband my time and resources, which means that I only gm stuff that I know are inside my comfort zone. That means that I only gm stuff that I'm already comfortable with and know I can handle without a fuzz, including being able to just wing it at times because I know the ins and outs of the rules and settings I use.

The best GMs I've found understand the system so well that homebrew and tinkering are no big deal.

Incorrect
2018-07-19, 05:08 AM
I just wanna chime in as a person that would not necessarily turn down a paid gm. The customers are out there.
Of cause the right price for the right service. I dont play online, for example.

Florian
2018-07-19, 06:07 AM
The best GMs I've found understand the system so well that homebrew and tinkering are no big deal.

Can be done, but there's more or less no gain here, especially in very broad and complex systems like D&D or Pathfinder.

TekHed
2018-07-19, 06:30 AM
I heartily disagree. A lot of awesome homebrew out there.

Nifft
2018-07-19, 07:06 AM
Can be done, but there's more or less no gain here, especially in very broad and complex systems like D&D or Pathfinder.

Given how much published content is just plain terrible, what you're saying is pretty bad advice.

A good DM needs enough system mastery to exclude or fix the ocean of bad published content in both of those systems, and once a DM has that skill then it's quite easy to audit or create balanced homebrew.

Creating good homebrew is generally easier than fixing bad published content, since you don't need to cover all general cases.

TekHed
2018-07-19, 07:27 AM
Given how much published content is just plain terrible, what you're saying is pretty bad advice.

A good DM needs enough system mastery to exclude or fix the ocean of bad published content in both of those systems, and once a DM has that skill then it's quite easy to audit or create balanced homebrew.

Creating good homebrew is generally easier than fixing bad published content, since you don't need to cover all general cases.

This^

:)

Florian
2018-07-19, 07:28 AM
Given how much published content is just plain terrible, what you're saying is pretty bad advice.

A good DM needs enough system mastery to exclude or fix the ocean of bad published content in both of those systems, and once a DM has that skill then it's quite easy to audit or create balanced homebrew.

Creating good homebrew is generally easier than fixing bad published content, since you don't need to cover all general cases.

That is a pretty common stance you mainly see with the mainstream, especially D&D and PF community, that published material is something that is automatically on the able because it is first party content.

Nifft
2018-07-19, 07:36 AM
That is a pretty common stance you mainly see with the mainstream, especially D&D and PF community, that published material is something that is automatically on the able because it is first party content.

I only see your stance repeated on internet forums.

I've never seen a real-life game where the DM said that all 1st party content automatically gets a pass.

Mainstream in theory-threads =/= mainstream at real tables.

mgshamster
2018-07-19, 07:49 AM
No interest. Even if you could make it work, you won't get the DMs whose games I want to play.

My last several really good DMs have been a tech writer, an independent contractor, a history teacher, and a naval officer (plus a statistical consultant, if you accept that I am competent). You simply couldn’t hire any of us for hobby-level money.

By contrast, the last two average-to-below-average DMs I’ve had are currently looking for jobs.

Really competent DMs can:

1. Plan projects
2. Write well
3. Solve problems
4. Improvise quickly
5. Keep a group of people invested, under control, and focused on a single goal
6. Communicate well, in both directions.

These people can usually make better money elsewhere than DMing is likely to pay.

One of the best DMs I had was a house wife. She lived off her husband's job, took care of the kids and the house, and planed adventures for D&D.

Not everyone who has the skills wants to be in the workforce.

Heck, it might even be an option for someone who's retired.

Florian
2018-07-19, 07:51 AM
I only see your stance repeated on internet forums.

I've never seen a real-life game where the DM said that all 1st party content automatically gets a pass.

Mainstream in theory-threads =/= mainstream at real tables.

No, forums like this are not exemplary for how the actual mainstream plays, general optimization level (or rather: lack thereof), system knowledge and interest/investment in the actual lore of the game or setting.

That said, it still does happen that you will confronted with a player that is way above average, when it comes to this and the interesting part is how haggling over what goes and what not will turn out.

Another thing that was very common and luckily has ceased with the age of people I play with, is the fixation and reproduction of things that are from entirely different media, like proposing a "custom class" for you most beloved anime/WoW/MOBA character. That turned out bad in most ways.

TekHed
2018-07-19, 02:45 PM
Hey now, the game I'm trying to get off the ground right now started with me creating a custom class homage to a favorite comic book character! And I'm not young either... :smallconfused:

Haldir
2018-07-19, 03:32 PM
I normally don't mention this because forum rules prohibit advertising for-profit, but I have definitely done some paid GM'ing.

I offer varying levels of interactive services- I bring in a large projector and screen, and I've even toyed with using a flatscreen television for a game board. I use different props depending on the situations I'm setting up, and I draw all my own maps in SketchUp and have even built simple 3D object puzzles that the players can manipulate in the drawspace.

The real problem is finding clients. I usually charge 20-30 a head for one session, and I usually leave something set up so the game can continue. However, find the people who are interested in something like this get their D&D fix and then don't care to continue regularly. I also live in the Dallas-Fort Worth metro, so finding games to sit in for free isn't that hard.

In most cases I do all the rolling for the game, unless a client specifically wants to do their own, simply because I can do the math much faster. I am a very firm believer in having all the rolls open.

It's been a positive experience so far, though finding dedicated clients has tempered my expectations a bit.


Edit> 20 dollars per person per month is not nearly enough to justify the time and effort, especially if you're demanding lots of custom work. You're talking pennies per hour of work at that rate, and I'd rather just play the games I want to play. 20 per person per session is the equivalent of maybe 2 movie tickets. A movie ticket is about 2 hours of entertainment, and my sessions generally last 4-5 hours, so the price is equivalent to other entertainment.

ChamHasNoRoom
2018-07-19, 04:38 PM
The math works out pretty similarly for video games in terms of dollars per hour of entertainment. Plus, there's the market reality that people are in fact paying me $20-$30 per session right now. It'd be super weird for them to keep doing that if they didn't think my service was worth it.

Haldir
2018-07-19, 06:57 PM
Those numbers are just prep time for sessions, not even including time you need to learn whatever silly system the client wants to use, which is honestly just as time consuming, if not more. I dunno Chams exact experiences, but I have too much starfinder knowledge that I'll likely never use again.

TekHed
2018-07-19, 07:31 PM
D&D of various editions is always likely to be broadly applicable. :)

ChamHasNoRoom
2018-07-20, 01:59 AM
I charge extra for systems I don't already know. So far, not a single group has been willing to pay for it, which is fair, but I'm still not budging my prices. Partly because I'm getting plenty of customers with the systems I know, and partly because doubling the work while keeping rates the same would put me well under minimum wage.

TekHed
2018-07-20, 02:15 AM
Is this your only source of income Cham?

ChamHasNoRoom
2018-07-20, 10:20 AM
No, and my estimates are that even with discounts fully peeled back and an absurd density of large groups using custom content, I'm unlikely to make more than $2,000/month, which is about $500/month shy of what I'd consider minimum income to consider quitting my day job. I mainly use it to buy art assets for other creative projects, with the goal of keeping my creative work profit-neutral overall while I build up a backlog.

JeenLeen
2018-07-20, 12:10 PM
I would be willing to pay for a DM, if it were someone I trusted (either from knowing or word of mouth) to be a good DM whose style would mesh with mine. I'm currently in a PbP game I'm loving thoroughly, and would be willing to pay a small amount to continue in it. I also have a live group (though we've in hiatus for about a year), and I'd be willing to pay some amount to make it worth the DM's time to run the game.
The amount I'd be willing to pay is probably below the amount someone would be willing to do it for, but if I had more disposable income or less kids requiring both time and money, the amount would be higher.

I was going to type some stuff about expectations being an issue -- me, as a customer, feeling like I'm owed something extra for my money, or the DM's integrity being potentially compromised -- but I'm not really feeling the writing spirit. And I think others have touched upon it.

There are some other good posts on the topic in the forums, which I know one person linked to at least one. I like this topic.

Haldir
2018-07-20, 07:11 PM
I charge extra for systems I don't already know. So far, not a single group has been willing to pay for it, which is fair, but I'm still not budging my prices. Partly because I'm getting plenty of customers with the systems I know, and partly because doubling the work while keeping rates the same would put me well under minimum wage.

I find this interesting because most of my potential clients are looking at paid GM'ing only because they can't find someone to run whatever specific system they want for free.

ChamHasNoRoom
2018-07-21, 04:19 PM
So are mine. I know a lot of non-D&D systems and I'm often looking into learning new ones, because there is indeed a big market for people who can't find a GM for something obscure. Thing is, learning a new system takes time, and I'm not going to do it unless that extra time is paid for.

TekHed
2018-07-21, 05:06 PM
One could argue in that case that learning new systems is on the DM, just like any other trade school or education for a profession.

Jay R
2018-07-21, 07:08 PM
One of the best DMs I had was a house wife. She lived off her husband's job, took care of the kids and the house, and planed adventures for D&D.

Not everyone who has the skills wants to be in the workforce.

Heck, it might even be an option for someone who's retired.

I suggested that really good DMs don't need to be a DM for money. Your two counter-examples (housewife, retired person) are people who are choosing not to try to make money.

That ... doesn't really disprove my point.

Yes, of course, they could suddenly choose to make money, and they could suddenly choose to use this method. But as a general rule, my point still stands.


No, and my estimates are that even with discounts fully peeled back and an absurd density of large groups using custom content, I'm unlikely to make more than $2,000/month, which is about $500/month shy of what I'd consider minimum income to consider quitting my day job.

This is what I expect to be the general rule. I accept that there will be exceptions.

ChamHasNoRoom
2018-07-21, 08:38 PM
One could argue in that case that learning new systems is on the DM, just like any other trade school or education for a profession.

One can argue whatever one wants, the market already pays me to run D&D and if one wants me to learn a new system, one needs to pay me more for the extra trouble.

mgshamster
2018-07-21, 10:01 PM
I suggested that really good DMs don't need to be a DM for money. Your two counter-examples (housewife, retired person) are people who are choosing not to try to make money.

That ... doesn't really disprove my point.

Yes, of course, they could suddenly choose to make money, and they could suddenly choose to use this method. But as a general rule, my point still stands.

It was more to discuss how people with those skills won't necessarily be looking for jobs or be caring about money enough to make it a primary resource. They can, however, do it as a secondary resource.

I know plenty of retired folks who have taken up a part time job for a bit of supplemental income.

So while you're correct that most people with those skills won't be looking to be a professional DM, it doesn't necessarily include all people with those skills.

Haldir
2018-07-21, 10:25 PM
One could argue in that case that learning new systems is on the DM, just like any other trade school or education for a profession.

In my experience, the extra time learning the systems has not paid off at all. The Trade School analogy is not a very good one because so many systems are just full of garbage that doesn't equate to anything meaningful. I mean, FULL of useless garbage. Most systems aren't designed very well at all. At least a trade will have some sort of application somewhere, or one would assume.

This suggestion is somewhat akin to the largest issue I have found dealing with clients- they try to lowball you, suggesting that prices are too high for something that is traditionally done for free, or that because I enjoy playing I should be willing to settle for prices that are, quite frankly, insulting when compared to the amount of time required.

While I understand that, somewhat, I offer a very high-end entertainment experience, complete with A/V effects and quality maps made by a trained draftsman. I work super hard to make sure all of my games are engaging, unique, and visually appealing.

It also doesn't help that potential customers and gamers in general can be, lets say, socially challenged? Awkward maybe.

Luckmann
2018-07-23, 10:38 AM
Would you consider paying? How much?

Never in a milloon years and nothing. I consider this trend highly cancerous, and if anything, a sign of the end times of the hobby's core.

TekHed
2018-07-23, 03:21 PM
I think the core is doing just fine. I'm just more of a "special needs" player who often wants games different than what is on offer and it can be hard sometimes to find DMs willing and inspired to accommodate.

Koo Rehtorb
2018-07-23, 03:36 PM
You can't pay someone to be inspired.

Kardwill
2018-07-23, 04:04 PM
You can't pay someone to be inspired.

Plenty of professional artists would disagree with this one, I think.

ChamHasNoRoom
2018-07-23, 04:18 PM
You can't simultaneously claim to value something while be unwilling to pay a single cent to support it. There's no stronger way to express a lack of belief in the value of GMing than refusing to pay for it not because of the current state of your finances or schedule, but as a principle. If you think something is priceless, then you should be willing to pay literally all of your spare funds for it. If you aren't willing to pay any amount for any reason, then you think GMing (and the time of your GM) is worthless. No amount of words will change the hard fact that what you are actually doing is refusing to compensate someone for their time and abilities, which is just about the clearest possible indication that you don't care about either.

Darth Ultron
2018-07-23, 05:17 PM
Never in a milloon years and nothing. I consider this trend highly cancerous, and if anything, a sign of the end times of the hobby's core.

I would note that Pay D&D goes all the way back to 0E. So it's not like it's a new thing.

Really, if your a member of most any 'club' you will pay some type money for it. And this is even more true of things were one person does 99% of the work, and everyone else just shows up.

Knaight
2018-07-23, 05:59 PM
You can't simultaneously claim to value something while be unwilling to pay a single cent to support it. There's no stronger way to express a lack of belief in the value of GMing than refusing to pay for it not because of the current state of your finances or schedule, but as a principle. If you think something is priceless, then you should be willing to pay literally all of your spare funds for it. If you aren't willing to pay any amount for any reason, then you think GMing (and the time of your GM) is worthless. No amount of words will change the hard fact that what you are actually doing is refusing to compensate someone for their time and abilities, which is just about the clearest possible indication that you don't care about either.

Some things lose value when you're paying people for them, and that starts with basically any reciprocal social interaction. Directly paying your friends for friendship cheapens that friendship. Paying friends to participate in a shared activity cheapens that shared activity. In the context of a friend relationship paying a GM is roughly comparable to paying your friend to watch a movie with you - and I don't mean something like also buying their ticket. It devalues the whole point.

Koo Rehtorb
2018-07-23, 06:47 PM
You can't simultaneously claim to value something while be unwilling to pay a single cent to support it. There's no stronger way to express a lack of belief in the value of GMing than refusing to pay for it not because of the current state of your finances or schedule, but as a principle. If you think something is priceless, then you should be willing to pay literally all of your spare funds for it. If you aren't willing to pay any amount for any reason, then you think GMing (and the time of your GM) is worthless. No amount of words will change the hard fact that what you are actually doing is refusing to compensate someone for their time and abilities, which is just about the clearest possible indication that you don't care about either.

So...... the GM should also be paying the players or the GM thinks players are worthless?

2D8HP
2018-07-23, 07:05 PM
Never in a milloon years and nothing. I consider this trend highly cancerous, and if anything, a sign of the end times of the hobby's core.


I suggested in the

Is there a DM shortage? What can or should be done? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?500951-Is-there-a-DM-shortage-What-can-or-should-be-done)

thread, but if there's so few willing DM's per players that people find it such a chore to DM that they have to be paid to be willing to do it then somethings wrong with the game.

Personally I find WD&D fun to play, but far too complex to DM, unlike say the 1977 bluebook Basic rules.

Pick a different game, something that's also fun for the referee.

Nifft
2018-07-23, 08:18 PM
You can't simultaneously claim to value something while be unwilling to pay a single cent to support it. There's no stronger way to express a lack of belief in the value of GMing than refusing to pay for it not because of the current state of your finances or schedule, but as a principle. I'd suggest that adding a financial transaction does not always increase the perceived value of a human social interaction.

Citation:

https://preview.ibb.co/ftbqto/1506345369_20170925.png (https://ibb.co/npGqto)

Source: https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/transaction

ChamHasNoRoom
2018-07-23, 08:20 PM
Some things lose value when you're paying people for them, and that starts with basically any reciprocal social interaction. Directly paying your friends for friendship cheapens that friendship. Paying friends to participate in a shared activity cheapens that shared activity. In the context of a friend relationship paying a GM is roughly comparable to paying your friend to watch a movie with you - and I don't mean something like also buying their ticket. It devalues the whole point.

Then you will be delighted to know that very few professional GMs run paid games for their friends. Indeed, one of the biggest markets for a professional GM is groups of friends, none of whom want to be the GM. Paying a stranger to do the job is clearly better than forcing someone into a role they don't want. People who express concern about professional GMing are not expressing concern about their friends suddenly demanding payment. They are expressing concern that they will no longer be able to find a stranger to GM for them for free.


So...... the GM should also be paying the players or the GM thinks players are worthless?

Second one. Players show up to be entertained. With rare exceptions, they provide no value to the GM.

TekHed
2018-07-23, 08:32 PM
Wow I have to really disagree with you on that last one Cham...

Based upon my gaming experience over the years and even currently, every DM I've ever played a long running game with expressed a lot of entertainment and satisfaction from their players, and all the unpredictable ideas and opportunities they brought to the game. It really is/should be a collaborative experience for all. If you aren't enjoying running the game and getting enjoyment and entertainment from your players you're either doing something wrong or have ****ty players.

Case in point, I found someone to DM the Eberron game I've been asking about for free, and he is totally inspired and excited to do so.

Koo Rehtorb
2018-07-23, 09:09 PM
Second one. Players show up to be entertained. With rare exceptions, they provide no value to the GM.

I would immediately ditch these theoretical worthless players and find better ones. I'm not a circus performer.

Knaight
2018-07-23, 10:47 PM
Then you will be delighted to know that very few professional GMs run paid games for their friends. Indeed, one of the biggest markets for a professional GM is groups of friends, none of whom want to be the GM. Paying a stranger to do the job is clearly better than forcing someone into a role they don't want. People who express concern about professional GMing are not expressing concern about their friends suddenly demanding payment. They are expressing concern that they will no longer be able to find a stranger to GM for them for free.

Your comment didn't specify professional GMs - and the vast majority of GMs are running games for friends. That's the default dynamic, and so I return to my point - some social interactions are more valuable precisely because they don't involve money.

Moreover while I used friendship as an example it's hardly the only one. Group meetups for games (boardgames, RPGs, some videogames, whatever) that are open to strangers are a thing, there's an analogous role to the GM in the non-RPG cases where someone who already knows the game, owns the game, and generally explains the rules takes on a disproportionately large share of the work, and yet still has fun themselves. Money going to a public venue is common here, money going to the person in that role less so - that doesn't mean it isn't valued.

What it does probably mean is that people who enjoy their hobbies in an explicit role as time off where they get to have fun don't want to turn that into work time where they're working. I say this as someone who is a near-permanent GM, and who has taught more than a few boardgames to strangers. The introduction of payment to my explicitly time-off hobby time changes the dynamic, and not for the better. The same thing applies to players and boardgame learners, and the idea that they don't value GMs/boardgame teachers because they don't like the change in dynamic introduced by commercializing a shared hobby is ludicrous.

TekHed
2018-07-24, 12:04 AM
If I've gathered anything from this fascinating array of differing perspectives it's that most people don't like it but it is apparently there as an option for those that do...

ChamHasNoRoom
2018-07-24, 12:24 AM
Your comment didn't specify professional GMs

Did you forget what thread you're in?


Money going to a public venue is common here, money going to the person in that role less so - that doesn't mean it isn't valued.

Yes, it does. It means that the value you have literally placed upon the service is $0. If you are willing to pay for the venue but not for the time of the person offering the service, then you apparently have the bizarre belief that an empty room to hold a game in is more important than the person running it.


What it does probably mean is that people who enjoy their hobbies in an explicit role as time off where they get to have fun don't want to turn that into work time where they're working.

No one is questioning why the GM might not want to accept money. That much is obvious. Accepting money means accepting responsibility to give someone a game worth that money. The conversation has entirely been about what value the players place on the GM, and if they are unwilling to pay for GMing services as a matter of principle, the answer is "no value at all."

Florian
2018-07-24, 01:14 AM
Second one. Players show up to be entertained. With rare exceptions, they provide no value to the GM.

There's something fundamentally wrong with that statement.

Everyone coming to the table is a player and should aim to provide fun to the other participants. It´s more or less just a minor detail that one of the players wears a different hat than the others, but has the equal right to be provided with fun and entertainment. When in the role of gm, player who try to treat me as a mere extension of the rules system, a service provider or who try to elevate their fun above mine can grab their stuff and go home.

Mr Beer
2018-07-24, 01:21 AM
Second one. Players show up to be entertained. With rare exceptions, they provide no value to the GM.

I like to imagine that spending time with my friends provides me with something of value, however hopelessly naïve that makes me.

Haldir
2018-07-24, 02:47 AM
I like to imagine that spending time with my friends provides me with something of value, however hopelessly naïve that makes me.

The point being made is that GMing for friends has inherent value, but when no friends want to GM, a stranger will not get the same value from entertaining you, therefore compensation is required.

I wholeheartedly concur that running games for strangers is more of a hassle than a joy.

Kardwill
2018-07-24, 02:53 AM
Some things lose value when you're paying people for them, and that starts with basically any reciprocal social interaction. Directly paying your friends for friendship cheapens that friendship. Paying friends to participate in a shared activity cheapens that shared activity.

But in the case of a pro GM, he's not your friend but a service provider, even if that relationship can evolve later.

For example, I love hiking. I'm handy with a map, I can plan a tour, and I know pretty well the trails around my home. So I sometimes take my friends to a serious day of walking (say 15-28km), and during this day I'm the guide. I plan the tour, I look for information, I decide the time and place of rendez-vous, I guide the group, I comment what we're seing, I tell my friends what they need to bring and what they need to do, I check the weather, sometimes I buy stuff like a map or a book, and I walk and chat with them... That's something I love doing, and I wouldn't even dream of getting paid for it. Walking with friends is a nice social activity, and in my experience even walking with strangers often leads to friendship.

And sometimes, I go for a week of hiking in the mountains, with an organized group and a professional guide. That guide does everything I did during my own hikes (planning, logistics, guiding, animation, taking care of small accidents...), but at a pro level, with better gear, and for a group of strangers. And he/she walks and chats like any of us. And the guide gets paid for it. That's a professional activity for him/her, and pros get paid, even when they have fun and end up becoming friends.

And I don't think that devalues the hikes I do with friends, nor does it devalues the experiences and interactions I had during those paid hikes.

So no, I wouldn't pay or get paid for playing with my usual group of friends. But that's not really what we're taking about here. We're talking about hiring a stranger (or a passing acquaintance) to provide a paid service. You and me may not be interested in this service, but I don't really get the "opposition on principles" that this suggestion often gets (this conversation is actually pretty civil. I've often seen people brutally ridiculed on other forums for suggesting such a thing)

EDIT : Oops, didn't see that question had been brought up and you didn't talk about pros. Sorry.

TekHed
2018-07-24, 02:57 AM
The point being made is that GMing for friends has inherent value, but when no friends want to GM, a stranger will not get the same value from entertaining you, therefore compensation is required.

I wholeheartedly concur that running games for strangers is more of a hassle than a joy.

And yet with rare exception, that is what most of PbP is. Though I have made at least one friend online that transferred into RL, and some RL friends who have occasionally played with me online. We all seem to love it though, even though we are technically strangers. PbP is a niche but seems to be pretty robust.

Kardwill
2018-07-24, 03:15 AM
Second one. Players show up to be entertained. With rare exceptions, they provide no value to the GM.

Like most people here, I heartily disagree with that. A passive or selfish player is both dull AND more work for the GM. And since I'm a lazy GM with a preference for shared narration, I prefer if my players make some effort to keep the game rolling and everyone entertained. So I try to train my players to take things in their own hands. Less work for me that way on the long term ^^

Having a "feed me" player at your table is a chore, just like having a whiner or a loner in the group is a chore during a hike. I try to avoid either of them. But I'm GMing and hiking for free. I guess I wouldn't have much of a choice if I was paid for it. Part of the reason I don't want to become a pro in either activities : I don't want crappy strangers to spoil my Fun time.

Pelle
2018-07-24, 04:32 AM
Like most people here, I heartily disagree with that.



A passive or selfish player is both dull AND more work for the GM. And since I'm a lazy GM with a preference for shared narration, I prefer if my players make some effort to keep the game rolling and everyone entertained. So I try to train my players to take things in their own hands. Less work for me that way on the long term ^^

Having a "feed me" player at your table is a chore, just like having a whiner or a loner in the group is a chore during a hike. I try to avoid either of them. But I'm GMing and hiking for free. I guess I wouldn't have much of a choice if I was paid for it. Part of the reason I don't want to become a pro in either activities : I don't want crappy strangers to spoil my Fun time.

It don't seem like you disagree after all. The difference is only that Cham is willing to run for those crappy strangers provided he is compensated appropriately.



What it does probably mean is that people who enjoy their hobbies in an explicit role as time off where they get to have fun don't want to turn that into work time where they're working. I say this as someone who is a near-permanent GM, and who has taught more than a few boardgames to strangers. The introduction of payment to my explicitly time-off hobby time changes the dynamic, and not for the better.

I have plenty of friends who have turned their hobbies into work, be it dancing, beer brewing or photography. Yes of course it changes the dynamic and makes it less fun, but some people like to have a job which is something they like doing. If their customers try to short-change them and not wanting to pay market price because this is supposedly something my friends like doing, then yes they are not valuing the service. This is exploitive behaviour, no less. If you value someones' service, make sure you make it sustainable for them.

Kardwill
2018-07-24, 04:39 AM
It don't seem like you disagree after all. The difference is only that Cham is willing to run for those crappy strangers provided he is compensated appropriately.

Oops, missed the fact that Cham is a pro. Makes sense his players are the passive kind, if they're the kind of groups that have trouble finding a GM among their own ranks (either because they are unexperienced, because they are unassertive, or because they think all the work should be on the GM's side).

Kinda reinforces my decision not to GM for money, really ^^

Knaight
2018-07-24, 07:07 AM
I have plenty of friends who have turned their hobbies into work, be it dancing, beer brewing or photography. Yes of course it changes the dynamic and makes it less fun, but some people like to have a job which is something they like doing. If their customers try to short-change them and not wanting to pay market price because this is supposedly something my friends like doing, then yes they are not valuing the service. This is exploitive behaviour, no less. If you value someones' service, make sure you make it sustainable for them.

I assume you also have plenty of friends who haven't.

I'm not saying that doing this is wrong, or that trying to short change them is anything other than nonsense. What I'm saying is that the originally presented absolutist statement "if you won't pay money for it you don't actually value it" is riddled with exceptions. I was providing a single counter example, and speaking only for myself (though I know I have huge heaps of backup here).

Maybe I'm just jumping at a pet peeve a bit early, but the entire attitude that anything that can't be easily given a transactional monetized value is worthless is just generally wrong, and most often used either as a justification for destroying valuable things where a monetary value hasn't been established (e.g. huge amounts of pollution done with this as the justification before metrics were developed for how the sickness it caused in people did have a monetary value) or as a way to claim that what people are doing has no value because they're not making money from it (the active hostility among large portions of the population towards spending time learning anything that doesn't make you money, which is particularly loud in formal academic contexts but can easily crop up when just reading a book). It doesn't become right when the context is strangers gathering to share a mutually enjoyed experience, such as an RPG.

That said, I don't have an issue with paid GMs in general. I just wouldn't GM for money unless it was a great deal of money, and wouldn't pay for GMing personally.

Pelle
2018-07-24, 07:52 AM
I assume you also have plenty of friends who haven't.

Sure, so what?



I'm not saying that doing this is wrong, or that trying to short change them is anything other than nonsense. What I'm saying is that the originally presented absolutist statement "if you won't pay money for it you don't actually value it" is riddled with exceptions. I was providing a single counter example, and speaking only for myself (though I know I have huge heaps of backup here).


I just think you took his statement out of context. As I read it, it was about valuing a particular service offered. When hiring my favourite local band to play in my wedding, actually paying them a decent salary doesn't cheapen the experience. I am happy to pay to support their work, and we have a great (client-server) relation. I could underpay some amateurs to play instead, but that would be a sign of not actually caring about the music. And yes, that the family choir wanted to contribute for free with a performance out of their friendship only, in no way invalidates this. They did not offer a service.



That said, I don't have an issue with paid GMs in general. I just wouldn't GM for money unless it was a great deal of money, and wouldn't pay for GMing personally.

Same here. Paid GMing is really uncontroversial. Either you want to pay someone else for GMing if no one else does it for free, or you don't. Either you are willing to GM when someone offers to pay you, or not. It's a value neutral observation, and it's up to the indvidual to make a decision for themselves, not something someone else can say they should.

Haldir
2018-07-24, 11:10 AM
And yet with rare exception, that is what most of PbP is. Though I have made at least one friend online that transferred into RL, and some RL friends who have occasionally played with me online. We all seem to love it though, even though we are technically strangers. PbP is a niche but seems to be pretty robust.

PBP is an entirely different animal. The work can be spread out over easier to manage periods of time. I would NEVER be able to put together an experience worth money in a PBP, unless it were one of my published adventures. Even then, I would charge for the adventure itself, not the GM'ing. Hailing back to my "playtime equivalent to a movie experience" rationale, there' sjust not enough "entertainment value" in a PBP to honor that.

Even so, there is a concerted effort, like special recruitment threads, to find GM's for games in PBP, which is indicative of our scarcity and therefore value in the market.

In the same vein, this is why I don't offer online paid GM'ing, because I can't use my props/costumes/tech setup to enhance the experience, so I never considered that it was worth the effort. But if Cham is as successful as they claims to be, I may need to look into Discord/Roll20 clients.

Koo Rehtorb
2018-07-24, 11:43 AM
You know, it suddenly occurs to me that paying for GMing shares a lot of similarities with paying for sex.

ChamHasNoRoom
2018-07-24, 01:59 PM
Everyone coming to the table is a player and should aim to provide fun to the other participants.

Ideally, sure. Fact is, most of them don't. Few players are actively malicious and calling them "bad players" seems like going too far, implies they actually make the experience worse, but most of them are basically experience-neutral. They show up, they play their character how they want, and the game would ultimately not be any better or worse if they hadn't shown up for it.


Maybe I'm just jumping at a pet peeve a bit early, but the entire attitude that anything that can't be easily given a transnational monetized value is worthless is just generally wrong,

There's two reasons something can have no monetary value. The first is that it is so important that literally any amount of money would be a bargain on it. The life of a child to most parents, for example. There isn't any amount of zeroes you can put on the check that'll make the average parent say "okay, sure, go ahead and kill the rugrat." And parents will generally pay whatever ransom they're able to get a child back, unless they're confident (perhaps erroneously) that they can retrieve their child without paying. While I'm flattered at the implication, I assure you that my GM services are not this kind of priceless treasure (if they were, people would consider themselves lucky to play at my table no matter how much I charged, and I can't even imagine what a game that awesome would look like).

The other reason something can have no monetary value is because a single penny is not enough to justify paying for them (or maybe a single dime or international equivalent, if we want to admit that pennies have become completely worthless). Well over a dozen people at this point seem to agree that my GM services are, in fact, worth $10/week (in some cases more), so I'm confident in saying that isn't true either, and that people asserting that it is are probably just afraid that sooner or later they're either going to have to actually contribute to the experience or else pony up.

Koo Rehtorb
2018-07-24, 02:05 PM
{scrubbed}

Jay R
2018-07-24, 02:15 PM
You can't simultaneously claim to value something while be unwilling to pay a single cent to support it.

Don't be silly. Of course I can.

I value the sunrise, but have never been willing to pay money for it. I have, however, hiked many miles up a mountain to watch it.

I value intimate relations, but have never been willing to pay money for it. I do, however, try to provide an equal measure of pleasure for my partner.

I value friendship, but have never been willing to pay money for it. I have, however, offered my friends the same loyalty, respect, and support that they give to me.

I value compliments and praise, but have never been willing to pay money to be praised. I have, however, thanked people when they praised me, and tried to praise others.

I value awards and trophies I have won, but I have no interest in going down to the awards shop and buying one. I have, however, worked and trained to do the activities well that I compete in (including a 1976 D&D tourney).

I value fencing, but have never been willing to pay money for somebody to fence with me. I have, however, put on fencing events for others.

And, yes, I value a good DM, but have never been willing to pay money for it. I have, however, taken my turn DMing the games.

The idea that money is the only way to show that I value something is simply false.

Knaight
2018-07-24, 02:43 PM
You know, it suddenly occurs to me that paying for GMing shares a lot of similarities with paying for sex.

Not least of which is that there's a lot of people unwilling to pay, but who still value the experience.

Jay R
2018-07-24, 02:50 PM
Back off a little, guys. I don't have to disapprove of a person just because he's doing something I don't want to do.

I have no problem with somebody who wants to pay a DM, or with somebody who wants to run games for pay. That seems like a reasonable, honest, fair transaction.

But these two quotes express pretty well why I have no interest, in either direction.


... but most of them [players]are basically experience-neutral. They show up, they play their character how they want, and the game would ultimately not be any better or worse if they hadn't shown up for it.

Players show up to be entertained. With rare exceptions, they provide no value to the GM.

I don't want to play with players like that, or to run a game for players like that. I like my friends, and their presence makes the time brighter – whether we are playing D&D or not.

And they all show up to both be entertained and to entertain, in a co-operative venture.

I can certainly see why the players you describe would need to pay for a DM. But I'd much rather have a DM who is a friend, and who is genuinely enjoying running the game for us, as much as I enjoy running a game when I'm the DM.

Good luck with your business. I hope it works well for you. And I will continue to run games for others, and have them run games for me – both for free.

Haldir
2018-07-24, 02:55 PM
{scrubbed}

Careful, I've seen warnings slapped on people for things like "self-centered" and "silly."

And nobody is asking you to pay for GM'ing, nor making a character critique based on the fact that you'd only play with people giving you their time for free. People who seek paid GM'ing are doing so for reasons of value and scarcity. Perhaps you feel entitled to free GM'ing because you've had access to it, but that is not the case for everyone. SOme people value their time and effort and provide a service equivalent to that value. Mocking them for that sort of rings as "afraid that you won't find strangers willing to work for free" that was mentioned earlier in the thread.

And I think that's the key difference. If you're railing against the very idea that paid GM'ing can be a thing, you're not considering that GM'ing is work. Yes, it's "play" in the sense that we are running a game, but responsibility and measurable, guaranteed entertainment value requires effort. Apparently you do not value that effort very highly, but that doesn't allow you to openly mock the people that do.

Koo Rehtorb
2018-07-24, 03:08 PM
{scrubbed}

2D8HP
2018-07-24, 03:18 PM
I forget if I read this or saw it in a video (because of a link that someone on this Forum posted I've discovered that there's a lot of D&D content on YouTube), but a phrase that stuck with me is "The Best people to play D&D with are those who you want to spend time with if you weren't playing D&D", and "The worst are people who you wouldn't want to be with if you weren't playing D&D".

willoftheway
2018-07-24, 06:02 PM
{scrubbed}

I don't really see this as fair. He is speaking specifically from a paid gming stand point, in a thread about paid gming. I'd imagine in a situation like that, where the people at the table aren't friends invested in each other's experience by virtue of being friends, players are likely to bring as he says a value neutral situation to the table.

He is not as far as I can tell attributing this to the standard setup of friends gathered for the occasion.

Koo Rehtorb
2018-07-24, 06:30 PM
I'd imagine in a situation like that, where the people at the table aren't friends invested in each other's experience by virtue of being friends, players are likely to bring as he says a value neutral situation to the table.

He is not as far as I can tell attributing this to the standard setup of friends gathered for the occasion.

If you aren't invested in the experience of the other players at the table then you're a bad player, regardless of if you're already friends with them or not.

AMFV
2018-07-24, 06:58 PM
For people suggesting things like 25 dollars a month. That is like a really low rate for that job and the amount of prepwork involved. Say it takes you one hour of prep for a four hour session, you run one a week for five players. If they are all paying you 25 a month, that comes out to 125 a month, which means that in the average 20 hours you're working you're making one dollar an hour. That's not really worth the level of work that's required to make a good D&D game.

I've considered playing in paid games on Roll20, but they've all had either egregious restrictions right off the bat or have been riddled with spelling and grammar errors. And if I'm paying for a product I can't accept that, whereas if it's free I don't really mind so much.

Jay R
2018-07-24, 09:00 PM
I stand by it. Being a paid GM doesn't make you a douche, being a douche makes you a douche. And I am making a supposition that wanting to be paid for GMing is something that douches are more likely to be drawn towards. What actively makes him a douche in this instance is claiming that players are worthless and that they add nothing to the experience. That is highly offensive, beyond just being wrong.

And whoever called it cancerous to the hobby was right on the money. It's toxic from both sides of the player/GM gap. It tells GMs that they can (and should) have full creative control over the game because the worthless players can't contribute anything to it anyway. And it tells players that they should expect to show up and be entertained by the GM and contribute nothing.

No matter what you believe, using language like this makes his position stronger and yours weaker. You cannot convince people with ad hominem attacks. Many of us recognize that as a logical fallacy, and all of us recognize it as rude.

Your explanation and ideas have been totally overwhelmed and made meaningless, because all any of us will see is the insults. Throughout this thread, I have had no sympathy for his position, except when reading your posts. Frankly, your personal insults are the biggest thing supporting him.

If you would like to make his position look incorrect, you'll do better using logic and analysis without any distracting words like "d**che" and "cancerous" and "toxic". I urge you to treat him like somebody who is incorrect, not somebody who is horrible, and you'll be far more convincing.

And for the record, an extremely rare phenomenon like professional DMs will never have a major effect on the hobby, for good or ill. Claiming that it will merely makes it clear that you aren't thinking clearly.

Koo Rehtorb
2018-07-24, 09:10 PM
And for the record, an extremely rare phenomenon like professional DMs will never have a major effect on the hobby, for good or ill. Claiming that it will merely makes it clear that you aren't thinking clearly.

I never claimed that it did have a major effect on the hobby. I claimed it was a cancerous practice, which it is. Gosh. Perhaps it is you who is not thinking clearly, sirrah.

Haldir
2018-07-24, 09:30 PM
I never claimed that it did have a major effect on the hobby. I claimed it was a cancerous practice, which it is. Gosh. Perhaps it is you who is not thinking clearly, sirrah.

Even if you weren't flaming, your reasoning for it being cancerous is all out of whack. You claim it makes GM's write off the opinions of their players, when it is exactly the opposite. When I am being paid to perform I am holding myself to a higher standard, because there is a fiduciary duty to honor the arrangement. You claim it makes players expect to contribute nothing, when in fact it makes the players more engaged so they can get their monies worth out of the experience.

You're just grasping because you have an expectation/entitlement for free labor, because most people who GM do so because they badly want to play. If you can't imagine a scenario where someone has more liquid funds than time/ability to run a game, whatever, but don't use terrible reasoning and insults to justify your position.

Jay R
2018-07-24, 09:45 PM
I never claimed that it did have a major effect on the hobby. I claimed it was a cancerous practice, which it is. Gosh. Perhaps it is you who is not thinking clearly, sirrah.

What a clever way to finesse around my suggestion that you stop insulting someone.

For the record, I believe that cancer does have a major effect, and that calling something "cancerous" suggests a major effect.

Each person reading this thread will decide for himself or herself whether that represents me not thinking clearly. I hope that you are as comfortable with that as I am.

Koo Rehtorb
2018-07-24, 09:54 PM
You're just grasping because you have an expectation/entitlement for free labor, because most people who GM do so because they badly want to play. If you can't imagine a scenario where someone has more liquid funds than time/ability to run a game, whatever, but don't use terrible reasoning and insults to justify your position.

This is the fundamental problem that is making me object so strenuously. This idea that a GM is providing you with a "service". He's not. The GM is playing a game, you are also playing a game. The GM is not a more important/worthier piece of this game than anyone else, and I object to it for the same reason I object to prostitution. It's something that's supposed to be mutually enjoyed between equals, and money taints the entire process irreversibly. I'm certainly not saying that anyone shouldn't be allowed to buy/sell GMing/sex. Just that, in my opinion, it completely ruins both of them in a highly offensive manner.

And, as a side note, I also object to this notion that most GMs are only GMs because no one else will do it and they're nobly suffering, like Jesus, so others can have the good time that they can't. It's a pervasive notion, and it contributes to this whole GM-as-Atlas myth that makes people think GMing is hard and discourages new people from trying it.

Darth Ultron
2018-07-24, 10:04 PM
This is the fundamental problem that is making me object so strenuously. This idea that a GM is providing you with a "service". He's not. The GM is playing a game, you are also playing a game. The GM is not a more important/worthier piece of this game than anyone else, and I object to it for the same reason I object to prostitution. It's something that's supposed to be mutually enjoyed between equals, and money taints the entire process irreversibly. I'm certainly not saying that anyone shouldn't be allowed to buy/sell GMing/sex. Just that, in my opinion, it completely ruins both of them in a highly offensive manner.


This simply is not true. Any classic DM, that runs RPGs in the classic way, takes a huge amount of time, effort and work.

Now yes, there are the DMs that just ''improvise'' stuff on the fly and run a game that way. It's a fine, valid, casual way to play RPGs.

Anything that is not a casual game though, takes time, effort and work.

Just compare what a DM and Player do in any non casual game:

Player makes a character...and, well that is it. So, maybe, a whole hour of work and effort.

The DM makes everything...the setting, campaign, adventures, characters, monsters...literately everything. Even for a simple game, it's a lot of work.

Haldir
2018-07-25, 01:01 AM
This is the fundamental problem that is making me object so strenuously. This idea that a GM is providing you with a "service". He's not. The GM is playing a game, you are also playing a game. The GM is not a more important/worthier piece of this game than anyone else, and I object to it for the same reason I object to prostitution. It's something that's supposed to be mutually enjoyed between equals, and money taints the entire process irreversibly. I'm certainly not saying that anyone shouldn't be allowed to buy/sell GMing/sex. Just that, in my opinion, it completely ruins both of them in a highly offensive manner.

And, as a side note, I also object to this notion that most GMs are only GMs because no one else will do it and they're nobly suffering, like Jesus, so others can have the good time that they can't. It's a pervasive notion, and it contributes to this whole GM-as-Atlas myth that makes people think GMing is hard and discourages new people from trying it.

Yeah. You're equating the amount of effort a GM puts in with the amount of effort a player puts in. Have you ever GM'd? There is clearly a difference between the two in scale of work and time spent. Maybe you're speaking from a position of ignorance? As in, having less experience with the subject at hand.

We have clearly expressed how paid Gm'ing can be a service and the ways in which we can elevate the entertainment and accept responsibility for the greater expectations.

Koo Rehtorb
2018-07-25, 01:13 AM
Yeah. You're equating the amount of effort a GM puts in with the amount of effort a player puts in. Have you ever GM'd? There is clearly a difference between the two in effort and time spent. Maybe you're speaking from a position of ignorance. As in, having less experience with the subject at hand.

Yes. Constantly. For over ten years. Far more often than I play. Because I want to, not because no one else will.

(Some forms of) GMing does take more time from the GM than the players. This does not make it a job, or give the GM some sort of superiority over the other players. If you do not enjoy prepping then you should not GM, or you should GM in a way which does not require prep. People do not owe you anything due to you choosing to spend time prepping sessions. If it's not fun for you then don't do it.

Edit for additional clarity - I do not want a GM that views GMing as a chore. That is not a fun person to play with. I want a GM who is enthusiastic about what they're doing, because they enjoy doing it.

ChamHasNoRoom
2018-07-25, 01:36 AM
Don't be silly. Of course I can.

So if you had to pay a dollar or else never see a sunrise again, you'd refuse? If someone kidnapped one of your intimate partners and held them ransom for a dollar, you'd refuse? If you were given the choice between never having any friends ever again or paying an evil genie a single dollar, you'd refuse? These aren't things you wouldn't pay money for. These are things that you don't have to pay money for. Hooray and all, it'd be messed up if someone found a way to charge for a sunrise or an evil genie held the very concept of friendship ransom, but the idea that you would rather lose access to these things forever than pay a dollar for them is ludicrous. What you're really saying is that you think people would think less of you if you had to pay for them, when most people can get them for free.

Kardwill
2018-07-25, 02:24 AM
Player makes a character...and, well that is it. So, maybe, a whole hour of work and effort.


Disagree. Outside of prepwork (which is mostly GM work, sure), once the game has started, the player has a responsibility in the way the game turns out. He has to be engaged in the story and make sure the other players are engaged too, entertain the GM and the other players, come up with interesting things his character will do at the table so that the game is engaging for all. In many games and at many gametables (and in most forum play I know of), he even creates bits of narration or generates bits of the setting.

Sure, as the GM, I'm the animator, so my responsibility in the way the game turns out is heavier, but it doesn't mean the other players are just there to "consume" my work. I expect them to work their ass off so that the game will be a success, too. A good game is a dirstributed work.

Sure, the "feed me" player who only cares for his character while the Allmighty GM is responsible for everything else may be the way many games are played out there. Hell, I played and GM'd this way for 25 years. But nowaday, I really, really dislike it. I find it lazy as a player, too constricting and unenjoyable as a GM.
Hell, some of my players at my "Dresden" campaign do more prepwork and research than I do ^^.

Oh, and as a "low prepwork" GM (I do some prep, sure, but I prefer to avoid heavy prep that will constrain my reactions to the actions and ideas during game. What happens at the table is what is important, not the story and world I built in my head), I maaay take issue in your "casual" comment :smallbiggrin:

Pelle
2018-07-25, 04:06 AM
This is the fundamental problem that is making me object so strenuously. This idea that a GM is providing you with a "service". He's not.

When no one in a group wants to GM, and they approach a stranger to come GM for them, and asking him to prioritize the time that he needs to get an income (he uses his free time to game with his own friends instead), then the GM is providing a service.

When I am GMing when playing with my group of friends, I am not providing a service, we're just having fun together, sharing a good experience.

The former situation is being discussed in this thread.



Edit for additional clarity - I do not want a GM that views GMing as a chore. That is not a fun person to play with. I want a GM who is enthusiastic about what they're doing, because they enjoy doing it.

You don't need to see GMing as a chore, yet recognize that you need to get paid to do it to justify spending the time on it. Otherwise you would have to spend the time working. I have paid hiking guides when going climbing who love their job. That they were enthusiastic was not an exuse for not paying them, they wouldn't do it for free. And that doesn't preclude me/them from going hiking with my/their friends for free either. Same for GMing.

Pleh
2018-07-25, 05:26 AM
You can't pay someone to be inspired.

There are tons of professional artists, but not because they're paid to be inspired. They get paid commission to afford the time it takes to set aside other life concerns and throw themselves into a creative task.


I'd suggest that adding a financial transaction does not always increase the perceived value of a human social interaction.

I would argue that the problem in the webcomic is the idea that the man is leaving afterward. A $40 wedding anniversary present actually isn't all that strange or bad at all. It's more the idea that somehow it excuses him from further participation in the relationship.

It's the problem not in the giving of money, but the substitution of money for relationship. He probably owes closer to whatever amount he's insured on his life insurance policy, which is more meant to reflect the financial hardship of suddenly losing a spouse.


You know, it suddenly occurs to me that paying for GMing shares a lot of similarities with paying for sex.

Not totally wrong, but certainly a rather distasteful metaphor that demonstrates your bias.

This is why I prefer the Chef metaphor for DMing. Even with my closest D&D friends, I don't want to consider my games with them to be practically sexual in nature. You're just trying to emotionally manipulate people into sharing your disgust for the concept. A bit like rubbing filth on it.

Rather, picture paid DMing as working as a Chef. It can never replace the experience of being invited to a friend's house to share a meal and bond relationally with each other in a private room, but it also doesn't need to do that. You go to a restaurant for a couple reasons.

Maybe your plans fell through and you need a quick one shot to get you through this meal.
Maybe you've just got cash to spare and want to try something new.
Maybe this chef has a fantastic reputation and/or their menu looks enticing.
Or maybe your group just doesn't have anyone who can cook well enough to be worth eating together otherwise.

Could be a ton of other reasons.

Forum Staff
2018-07-25, 09:32 AM
Locking this thread due to the number of personal attacks and insults being thrown around. Infractions will be handed out.