What are the balance problems with Mythic?

[Frosty]

Can I get a list of the most broken things about mythic? I am not looking to change huge swathes of it, but I am willing to look for ways to easily nerf or ban the biggest problems. I know about Mythic Power Attack and Foebiter already. Foebiter will probably be banned. Wild Arcana will be a Standard Action and not a swift action. Guardian path is pretty bad, but I'm not sure how I can easily fix it.

[CockroachTeaParty]

The first question you should ask yourself is: why?

Why are you using the mythic rules? If you're using them to just go LOUDER with more over-the-top wackiness, you might not need to change anything at all. Just sit back, enjoy the steamroller, and let the party's hubris sabotage themselves.

Now, if you're interested in something more 'balanced' and 'fair,' or you're looking to provide the mythic PCs with more of a challenge, that's... a harder thing to do. Not impossible. But again, not necessarily an issue that needs to be fixed with mechanical tinkering.

One great thing to put pressure on a mythic party is a hard time crunch. A mythic party can get back to full resources with an hour's rest and 1 mythic power (once they reach tier 3). If you make a crisis that demands swift and decisive action to resolve, like less than 24 hours, a mythic party will be put to the test.

Even if they can curb-stomp any given combat, resource management becomes key. The more you can make the PCs paranoidly hoard their mythic power, the harder each combat or encounter becomes for them. And if they are tapped by the time the Big Bad or whatever shows up, they're in for a real fight.



In general, NEVER sick a single big bad monster against a mythic party. It will be turned to molten glass in a round. A mythic fight worth a damn absolutely requires a target-rich environment. This forces them to use up more resources, burns buff durations, and... makes most combats long and complicated to run, unfortunately.

Depending on how high up the tiers you go, eventually non-mythic things become an utter joke. This is just a reality you have to accept. A level 17+ non-mythic full caster can throw down with a mythic party... briefly. Maybe. Everyone else is mulch. With this in mind, EVERYTHING BEING MYTHIC can start to stretch verisimilitude, but then again a high-tier mythic party should be dealing with reality-ending threats, so meh.



In my experience running a mythic game, the easiest abuse with the rules as-written is sky-rocketing initiative. It's super easy to get absurd initiative modifiers, up into the 20's or 30's. Mythic Improved Initiative (I think) gives you the option of spending 1 MP to just take 20 on an initiative check. Basically, a mythic party will go first 90% of the time with minimal effort, and once this starts to happen, most foes will get smoked before round 2. If there's one thing to approach with caution, it's examining the initiative boosters. If you'd like for all your monsters and NPCs to have a turn, either build them with the same initiative boosting options, ban things like Mythic Improved Initiative, or... I dunno, half the bonuses? Derp?

Why are you concerned about the Guardian? They're like the worst one. They require the enemy to attack them to use their stuff, and that's not going to happen if the initiative arms-race takes off. Even then, they're main schtick is 'not dying,' when they should be focusing on 'killing,' which the Champion does much better.

[Kurald Galain]

Some of the more powerful tricks include Haste, Flesh to Stone, Borrowed Time; Mirror Dodge ; items with Everlasting + Flexible Bond, or Undetectable; and Arcane Surge is flat-out ridiculous.

Surprisingly, most mythic feats are pretty lacklustre (except the ones that give you more path abilities), as are almost all mythic items (except the customizable legendary item), and mythic-only spells (as opposed to regular spells with a mythic-boosted option). Also, champion path is just not very good compared to the others.

[Florian]

Ok, first, you've got to ask yourself (and be honest here), why you actually want to use the Mythic rules. Second, you've got to be critical with your own play style (again, be honest here) and see if it matches with the Mythic rules.

Imho, there're three main problems with the mythic rules:

1) They support only one very specific play style, which is based on the core principles of the dungeon crawl, combat as sports and so on.

2) They are overly focussed on the hardcover rule books, up to Advanced Race Guide. A lot of newer material overshadow Mythic abilities in their own way and don't mesh very well. Using Mythic will mean that you have to cut down the list of options to the level that is actually supported.

3) If you already have a balance problem between mundanes and casters or if the tiers do actually show up and matter at your table, then Mythic will further widen the gap. If you do not have those problems, then Mythic will actually close the gap.

To add to what Kurald wrote: Mythic feats and spells are geared towards very conservative builds. As a player, you will have to cross-reference your intended build with the Mythic options available and more or less "build twice", because your base build will advance by XP, as usual, the mythic build will advance by quests and deeds, which is not plan-able.

Some classes and builds are at a disadvantage when it comes to Mythic. Multi-role or Gish-type classes like Inquisitor, Magus or Warpriest will need Dual Path or drop in their efficiency and classes like Paladin or Ranger have their limited spellcasting even more marginalized.

Edit: Some things to look out for:

- For some classes, the ability to increase an Attribute is more powerful than anything that the Paths can provide.
- Bloodline/Domain Immunity is extremely powerful and very open to interpretation. What does it man to be immune to Greater Dispel Magic or Time Stop? We don't know....

[legomaster00156]

To add to what Kurald wrote: Mythic feats and spells are geared towards very conservative builds. As a player, you will have to cross-reference your intended build with the Mythic options available and more or less "build twice", because your base build will advance by XP, as usual, the mythic build will advance by quests and deeds, which is not plan-able.
Actually, it is to a degree plannable, because you at least know when you won't be going up in tier. Your tier can never exceed your level divided by 2.

[Frosty]

1) Immune to Time Stop? umm...you can't ever cast it? Or you get to ride along in other peoples' Time stop?
2) I'm worried about Guardians being too WEAK, not too strong. Mythic is rocket tag times a million. Buffing defenses is always good.
3) I am looking for more balanced and fair, both with respect PCs outshining other PCs, and to making the combats not instant curb-stomps.

[Powerdork]

Actually, it is to a degree plannable, because you at least know when you won't be going up in tier. Your tier can never exceed your level divided by 2.

Whoa, whoa, hold up. I thought tier was based solely on mythic trials? Or at least, nothing I'm seeing in Chapter 1 of Mythic Adventures mentions a limit to tiers beyond that.

[ngilop]

From my readings of mythic and tales I have heard about others mythic play experiences the balance issues in mythic are basically 'whats wrong in core but tuned to 11'

So, in short; mundane do not get anything good and casters start off with crazy broken abilities at the bat.

In terms of what other have said about balancing encounter is true. don't try to put 1 vs the 5 or so characters. Mythic characters are supposed to be destined for greatness and are expected to steamroll over most (read: non-mythic) encounters.

[Rynjin]

The problem with Mythic lies in that many/most abilities are just MOAR NUMBERS or fiat insta-win buttons. Mythic Vital Strike, Mythic Holy Word (at L20, T10, Mythic Holy Word instantly kills anything below 26 HD within 40 ft. of you; even if they pass the save vs death they're paralyzed for a round), etc.

The best fix to Mythic IMO is cut out all the more numbers abilities and the tier upgrades themselves except for access to Mythic Feats and Path Abilities. This gives everybody (especially martial classes) more utility with things like Seven League Leap or enables otherwise difficult builds like Grapplers via Uncanny Grapple and Aerial Assault or thrown weapon users via a combination of range increasing abilities without opening it up to problems like my Tetori being able to throw down 24d8+700 damage in a single strike.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Actually, it is to a degree plannable, because you at least know when you won't be going up in tier. Your tier can never exceed your level divided by 2.

Pretty sure that's only a guideline. You could feasibly be Tier 10 and level 9 or something, if you underwent enough mythic trials. Since 'mythic trials' are just GM fiat, it's up to the GM in the end.

There's a Mythic rank 10 dretch in Wrath of the Righteous, for instance. I don't think it even has double-digit HD, but it just has rank 10 because of PLOT.

[Quertus]

1) They support only one very specific play style, which is based on the core principles of the dungeon crawl, combat as sports and so on.

2) They are overly focussed on the hardcover rule books, up to Advanced Race Guide. A lot of newer material overshadow Mythic abilities in their own way and don't mesh very well. Using Mythic will mean that you have to cut down the list of options to the level that is actually supported.

3) If you already have a balance problem between mundanes and casters or if the tiers do actually show up and matter at your table, then Mythic will further widen the gap. If you do not have those problems, then Mythic will actually close the gap.

So, I don't know path finder, let alone mythic. Given that, can you explain,

1) how mythic only supports Combat as Sport, not Combat as War,

2) why Mythic will exacerbate existing large martial / caster disparity issues, but shore up small ones, and

3) what it would do to "reverse caster / martial disparity"; ie , if the martial was totally overshadowing the caster.

Inquiring minds want to know.

[Florian]

So, I don't know path finder, let alone mythic. Given that, can you explain,

1) how mythic only supports Combat as Sport, not Combat as War,

2) why Mythic will exacerbate existing large martial / caster disparity issues, but shore up small ones, and

3) what it would do to "reverse caster / martial disparity"; ie , if the martial was totally overshadowing the caster.

Inquiring minds want to know.

Basically, the Mythic rules turn Pathfinder, which is already pretty high-powered, into Exalted.

Besides the regular level 1-20 class structure, a Mythic character will also gain a so-called Mythic Path, which is an additional 1-10 level class that will develop in parallel, which allows access to a limited amount of mythic variants of regular feats and spells, which can be activated by spending points from your Mythic Power pool.

1) The difference between Mythic and non-Mythic is pretty profound. You are expected to steamroll anything that is non-Mythic without wasting too many resources. On the other hand, the only way to gain Mystic Ranks and benefits are by going straight for epic challenges and beating them. In short, wading thru that dungeon in one go and beating the boss will net a reward, scry and fry tactics won't, as that's for non-heroic losers.

2) Mythic cranks up the killing power of martials to 11. If you don't one-shot a demon lord, you're doing it wrong. You play a blaster caster, then everything is well and all are playing the same game. You try 4D chess, then the game sucks as usual.

3) Unlike the old Epic trash rules, Mythic can actually start as early as 1st level. Martials tend to overshadow casters for quite some while.

[Frosty]

But in the interest of game balance, one-shotting a demon lord makes for a very anticlimactic boss fight. How do we prevent mythic from turning into Exalted?

[Calthropstu]

Mythic gets ridiculous.

The worst offenders are mythic spells. There are three mythic spells that are absolutely OP to the point of making the game a supreme cakewalk.

The most egregious of these is Mythic Augmented Time Stop. Mythic time stop by itself isn't too bad... just gives it to the whole party. Augmented, it's ZOMG WTF I WIN LOL. Seriously wtf were they thinking?

The second is mythic disintigrate, combined with other abilities and items. 20th lvl mythic augmented empowered maximized disintigrate combined with the mythic ability that adds 50% more damage comes to a grand total of 1,440 damage... times 3 on a crit with mythic improved critical(ray). The only thing in the game that can take that hit? The ghost of Cthulhu.

The third is Mythic globe of invulnerability. By tenth tier you basically become immune to all nonmythic magic. And since even mythic spellcasters have very few mythic spells at their disposal, you become extremely difficult for even the most powerful of mages to combat.


Next you have summons. Mythic summon spells don't exist, but mythic path abilities enhancing summons most certainly do. And those are pretty amazing. With the right path abilities and feats you can summon 1d3+2 monsters twice per round... making the battlefield a ridiculous mess. Alternatively, you can summon 1 more powerful thing able to act twice per round... twice per round. Plays hell with combat trackers.

To add to this, the base mythic abilities everyone gets is pretty game breaking by themselves. The ability to gain an extra standard action is not insignificant. Sure, you can't cast a spell, but an oracle could use a special ability, move and cast a spell. My fire oracle got insane use out of that.

And the divine and arcane paths? "I spend a mythic point to cast ANY SPELL I WANT" is the ultimate in versatility. It is truly a game breaker amongst game breakers.

[Braininthejar2]

But in the interest of game balance, one-shotting a demon lord makes for a very anticlimactic boss fight. How do we prevent mythic from turning into Exalted?

Why would we?

I mean, levels 1-20 are about mortals, and their stories. If you're going mythic, that's exactly the point.

[Florian]

But in the interest of game balance, one-shotting a demon lord makes for a very anticlimactic boss fight. How do we prevent mythic from turning into Exalted?

The whole point is that anything Mythic will beat the living sh** out of anything Non-Mythic without breaking a sweat, while the regular balance point as found in the core rules is now transferred to the Mythic level.

Generally speaking, you must rethink how encounter design and scope works when you use the Mythic rules.

You know the basic assumptions how the CR system and resource management works in regards to an unoptimized party of 4. Now add in a second layer of Mythic encounters that solely deal with the Points you have to power your abilities - a rule of thump is that you will have to go thru 2 points per encounter.
That will extend the usual 4 equal-CR encounter per adventuring day to Mythic Rank/2 additional encounter which are more or less extra hard. When it comes to scope, it´s also feasible to just use the mass combat rules to "remove the rabble" and than focus on the action against foes that will decimate entire armies on their own.

[CharonsHelper]

Can I get a list of the most broken things about mythic?

The better question would be what ISN'T broken in mythic. It would be a very short list.

[Erit]

The better question would be what ISN'T broken in mythic. It would be a very short list.

Trickster, Marshal, Guardian, roughly half the Universal Path abilities, maybe a third of the Mythic feats? Which is a short list until we actually detail it.

[Florian]

I'm actually quite a bit nostalgic now. I've played a Barbarian (Mounted Fury, Superstitious)/Champion wanna-be Paladin in Wrath of the Righteous some years back and it was just glorious. Burned all my Mythic feats on Mythic Paragon, Extra Path ability and Extra Mythical Power, only kept Titan Rage and exchanged everything else for additional attribute points. With a pre-nerf courageous furious lance, having a STR and CON of 50 was simply awesome....

[Calthropstu]

I'm actually quite a bit nostalgic now. I've played a Barbarian (Mounted Fury, Superstitious)/Champion wanna-be Paladin in Wrath of the Righteous some years back and it was just glorious. Burned all my Mythic feats on Mythic Paragon, Extra Path ability and Extra Mythical Power, only kept Titan Rage and exchanged everything else for additional attribute points. With a pre-nerf courageous furious lance, having a STR and CON of 50 was simply awesome....

I know what you mean. My mythic fire oracle was simply amazing with some of the most memorable battles I've ever had. I did dual path grabbing archmage and heirophant getting improved summons and speedy summons with mythic augment summoning... won a battle with about 50 mid lvl demons at lvl 12 by outnumbering them. Almost made the gm cry.

[Frosty]

I know what you mean. My mythic fire oracle was simply amazing with some of the most memorable battles I've ever had. I did dual path grabbing archmage and heirophant getting improved summons and speedy summons with mythic augment summoning... won a battle with about 50 mid lvl demons at lvl 12 by outnumbering them. Almost made the gm cry.
As a GM, I would veto that build. It would slow down the game too much.

So ok, ban Mythic Time Stop, Mythic Disintegrate, and Mythic Globe of Invulnerability. What else?

[exelsisxax]

As a GM, I would veto that build. It would slow down the game too much.

So ok, ban Mythic Time Stop, Mythic Disintegrate, and Mythic Globe of Invulnerability. What else?

No.

Go back and answer the questions the people are asking you. Mostly, you need to say how your games are run without mythic, and what you would consider to be 'unbalanced'. Otherwise, the only meaningful answer anyone can give you is BAN MYTHIC, because it is unbalanced as hell. You must provide goalposts if you want anything else.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Also mythic time stop is 9th level, so it'll only see play for a tiny percentage of the campaign, if at all.

Mythic disintegrate just makes disintegrate better at what it's already good at doing. Meh.

Mythic globe of invulnerability only becomes 100% immune to non-mythic spells at Tier 10. Again, that's likely a small fraction of playtime you have to worry about, if it even comes up at all. Also, non-mythic things will be trivialized by a dozen other things, so who cares?

As far as mythic spells go, my group pretty much boiled it down to the following spells:

Mythic Haste. Bonus move action + even more speed boost = full attack all the time, who cares?

Mythic Heroism. Greater Heroism for 10/mins. per level, basically, accessible at like level 5. 20% boost to pretty much everything. They always had it on.

Mythic Fireball. Eventually it ignores fire resistance. It was their go-to clean up trash mobs spell.

All other mythic spells were gravy. Interesting on occasion, but most of their MP went to the above three spells.

[Calthropstu]

As a GM, I would veto that build. It would slow down the game too much.

So ok, ban Mythic Time Stop, Mythic Disintegrate, and Mythic Globe of Invulnerability. What else?

Actually, I became so competent with my summons that my turns lasted less than 2 minutes each. I had everything all ready for my turn.

But I could see others bogging down the game horrendously.

Oh, and don't ban mythic timestop. It's actually kinda cool. Ban mythic AUGMENTED timestop which turns it from 1d4+1 rounds to ONE HOUR PER LEVEL. All mythic timestop does is allow you to bring other people into timestop.

[Calthropstu]

Also mythic time stop is 9th level, so it'll only see play for a tiny percentage of the campaign, if at all.

Mythic disintegrate just makes disintegrate better at what it's already good at doing. Meh.

Mythic globe of invulnerability only becomes 100% immune to non-mythic spells at Tier 10. Again, that's likely a small fraction of playtime you have to worry about, if it even comes up at all. Also, non-mythic things will be trivialized by a dozen other things, so who cares?

As far as mythic spells go, my group pretty much boiled it down to the following spells:

Mythic Haste. Bonus move action + even more speed boost = full attack all the time, who cares?

Mythic Heroism. Greater Heroism for 10/mins. per level, basically, accessible at like level 5. 20% boost to pretty much everything. They always had it on.

Mythic Fireball. Eventually it ignores fire resistance. It was their go-to clean up trash mobs spell.

All other mythic spells were gravy. Interesting on occasion, but most of their MP went to the above three spells.

Mythic augmented timestop ends the game. There are no challenges to it, it's literally you describe how you spend 20 uninterupted hours winning the game, recast the spell then spend 20 more hours winning some more. By the third casting your gm gives up and hands you a trophy.

Mythic augmented disintegrate can hit damage in the thousands. The best regular disintegrate can hit is 360. 720 on a crit.

Mythic globe of invuln sure, total spell shut down at lvl 20/10. But it completely shuts dow all casters AT YOUR LEVEL no matter what the entire way through. Even those with spells that ca normally affect you, will only have a small few. You SEVERELY limit their options to GO BIG OR GO HOME.

And maybe their highest spell is utility.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

As a side note, what issues are there without Vancian casting? If a group were to use Mythic with say Spheres of Power/Might, what should they watch out for?

[Florian]

As a side note, what issues are there without Vancian casting? If a group were to use Mythic with say Spheres of Power/Might, what should they watch out for?

Ouch, that's a tough one. I don't actually think that this can be made to work, not without creating a specific Mythic version for a spheres-based game. Reason is that you only have very limited access to Mythic variants of spells and feats, while the Paths work more towards enhancing class features.

So, basically, you'd need a Mythic version for each sphere and then you'd need a Mythic Augmented option for each of the concrete stuff that are part of a sphere.

[Frosty]

Doesn't mythic timestop also allow you to pull enemies into your time stop? so you and your party can curstomp the one boss enemy, who is now unsupported by his minions?

[Calthropstu]

Doesn't mythic timestop also allow you to pull enemies into your time stop? so you and your party can curstomp the one boss enemy, who is now unsupported by his minions?

Yes. You can pull up to 5 people into timestop with you. So if your party is 4 people plus you, you can pull them plus one other person.

So they would have some serious problems.

[The Random NPC]

Augmented Mythic Magic Missile does an average of 30 unblockable damage at a relatively low tier.

[Calthropstu]

Augmented Mythic Magic Missile does an average of 30 unblockable damage at a relatively low tier.

Yes, but it isn't unbalanced. It's a useful spell and can, cast en masse, drop just about anything... but FAR from being amongst the most broken mythic powers.

[The Random NPC]

Yes, but it isn't unbalanced. It's a useful spell and can, cast en masse, drop just about anything... but FAR from being amongst the most broken mythic powers.

I've never been a fan of Mythic, but I remember my GM complaining about Magic Missile because it was so easy to ramp up the damage and there wasn't any way to deal with it except more HP.

[Calthropstu]

I've never been a fan of Mythic, but I remember my GM complaining about Magic Missile because it was so easy to ramp up the damage and there wasn't any way to deal with it except more HP.

Yeah, at high levels mm gets ridiculous... But it also requires serious investment. Maximized and empowered, it deals a modest 35 points. Add some damage boosters that add damage per dolie rolled and it gets to 45 then 50 if you manage +2 per die. But it's completely unblockable undodgeable damage. 50 damage is a decent chunk of anythinfs hp and add the trip metamagic or other status effects and you're triggering save or die plus trip plus any other abilities you can trigger...

But it's also requiring a pretty serious investment. That's a solid 5+ feays there plus at least a 5th lvl slot. That kind of effect SHOULD be occuring at that level.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Ouch, that's a tough one. I don't actually think that this can be made to work, not without creating a specific Mythic version for a spheres-based game. Reason is that you only have very limited access to Mythic variants of spells and feats, while the Paths work more towards enhancing class features.

So, basically, you'd need a Mythic version for each sphere and then you'd need a Mythic Augmented option for each of the concrete stuff that are part of a sphere.

I’m not asking if mythic versions of spheres exist, but rather how the system works when casters have spherecasting with the mythic features rather than Mythic Vancian

[Frosty]

So, it's ok for mythic magic missile to be OP because lots of feats are required?

[Calthropstu]

So, it's ok for mythic magic missile to be OP because lots of feats are required?

Oh, that was regular magic missle. Mythic goes double. But even so, it's not OP in the slightest. It's mid power eange, especially when you compare it to the melee damage that mythic brutes can pump out.

[exelsisxax]

I’m not asking if mythic versions of spheres exist, but rather how the system works when casters have spherecasting with the mythic features rather than Mythic Vancian

It doesn't, because virtually no mythic features benefit spherecasting. You do not prepare, know, or expend spell slots, have spells of any level, or have any spell lists. You can really only get generic CL boosts, increase damage, and maybe do some shenanigans with debuffs.

[Psyren]

Mythic Globe of Invulnerability vs. Mythic Magic Missile appears to create an unstoppable force/immovable object scenario.

[Calthropstu]

Mythic Globe of Invulnerability vs. Mythic Magic Missile appears to create an unstoppable force/immovable object scenario.

Actually, the globe wins because it stops mythic spells of lvl 4 and below.

[Psyren]

Actually, the globe wins because it stops mythic spells of lvl 4 and below.

Ah right, I missed the "non-mythic versions" clause in MMM. So there you go, that's one surefire way to stop a Mythic Magic Missile.

[Florian]

I’m not asking if mythic versions of spheres exist, but rather how the system works when casters have spherecasting with the mythic features rather than Mythic Vancian

As no mythic sphere casting exists, the pint is mood, which is what I told you.

[Arbane]

Decide for yourself if it's broken, awesome, or ridiculous (or all three), but here's a plan to use Mythic abilities to kill Cthulhu from halfway across the galaxy (http://designofdragons.blogspot.com/2016/04/in-brightest-day-in-blackest-night-no.html). Twice.

And then a way to do it EVEN BETTER. :smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

Decide for yourself if it's broken, awesome, or ridiculous (or all three), but here's a plan to use Mythic abilities to kill Cthulhu from halfway across the galaxy (http://designofdragons.blogspot.com/2016/04/in-brightest-day-in-blackest-night-no.html). Twice.

And then a way to do it EVEN BETTER. :smallbiggrin:

Thanks for this! I'm going to link to it every single time someone complains about PF deities not having official stats.

[Calthropstu]

Thanks for this! I'm going to link to it every single time someone complains about PF deities not having official stats.

Yeah. Was a very fun read.

[Malimar]

Welp, I just one-turn-killed a major boss with Augmented Mythic Maximized Magic Missile + Augmented Mythic Quickened Magic Missile (for 90 and 20d4+10 damage that can't be resisted in any way), so that's a thing to look out for.

Mythic Enlarge Person and Mythic Haste are my other staples.

[Cosi]

It amuses me that people think "avatars of the DMs whims are literally invincible, even in the face of the most powerful possible PCs" is a good thing. People have been killing gods in D&D since before I was born.

[Calthropstu]

It amuses me that people think "avatars of the DMs whims are literally invincible, even in the face of the most powerful possible PCs" is a good thing. People have been killing gods in D&D since before I was born.

Yes. I have been in such campaigns and they suck. They suck hairy goat turds covered in piss flavored mud.

Killing gods is RARELY done. Not even other gods do it. Killing an avatar? Sure. The diety itself is another matter. It's one of the things I've always hated about forgotten realms as well as D&D in particular. Gods are too easy to end.

That's why I live that pf and Paizo will never publish stats for major deities.

[Cosi]

I can name three different book series where the protagonists kill gods off the top of my head -- The Night Angel Trilogy, Malazan: Book of the Fallen, and Lord of Light (technically just a single book). All of those are good, and Lord of Light can credibly claim to be the best book of all time. Godslaying is just like any other plot point. It has to be set up and executed well, but when it is it works. Not to mention the super toxic effect of having an explicit in-world mechanism for the DM screwing with your character.

[Rynjin]

I can name three different book series where the protagonists kill gods off the top of my head -- The Night Angel Trilogy, Malazan: Book of the Fallen, and Lord of Light (technically just a single book). All of those are good, and Lord of Light can credibly claim to be the best book of all time. Godslaying is just like any other plot point. It has to be set up and executed well, but when it is it works. Not to mention the super toxic effect of having an explicit in-world mechanism for the DM screwing with your character.

It's worth noting that those (with perhaps the exception of Lord of Light, I haven't read it) use gods in the sense of "powerful creature" rather than a metaphysical force or "omnipotent within their domain" being. Malazan in particular essentially sets up gods as "strong humans who have carved a power niche" and operates on a kind of Epic of Gilgamesh style narrative where arbitrarily powerful feats can be performed by any sufficiently powerful (god or not) being. It's basically the whole plot of the super strong primitive spear guy, whatever he and hsi race are called it's been years since I touched the series.

[Cosi]

It's worth noting that those (with perhaps the exception of Lord of Light, I haven't read it) use gods in the sense of "powerful creature" rather than a metaphysical force or "omnipotent within their domain" being. Malazan in particular essentially sets up gods as "strong humans who have carved a power niche" and operates on a kind of Epic of Gilgamesh style narrative where arbitrarily powerful feats can be performed by any sufficiently powerful (god or not) being. It's basically the whole plot of the super strong primitive spear guy, whatever he and hsi race are called it's been years since I touched the series.

Well, yes, but that's mostly how gods have been modeled in D&D campaigns (Malazan is literally the dramatization of the author's campaign). Even 3e with it's totally ridiculous powers still fundamentally models gods as people with powers. There are even ways to beat them with optimized characters. The idea that a god is an abstract force you can't defeat is nowhere in the history of D&D, and when combined with the notion that gods actively intervene in the world, it essentially gives DMs carte blanche to screw over players. No part of that is good, and punching gods in the face is, so the choice seems obvious to me.

[Rynjin]

GMs always have carte blanche to screw with players, so I'm not sure what your point is. If a GM (or a writer, in the case of the hack that wrote Wrath of the Righteous) wants to have a god **** the players, they will. If not, they won't.

Punching gods being a good thing is also subjective. I prefer the gods to be hands off, working entirely through agents and kept from direct intervention except in limited ways through specific channels (like commune or Miracle) and minor appearances (I like Desna's optional cameo to aid the players in Carrion Crown book 3 a good way of handling it: a slight cosmetic change for the players and a minor stat boost, relying on a specific narrative event to trigger. I added a one-shot 'counterspell' effect to help them in an unfair as written encounter later). This is also basically canon, since IIRC the god shave agreed no touchy on Golarion since the whole planet is one big prison for Rovagug and nobody wants a war to spring up on the planet and open the cage.

[Psyren]

Yes. I have been in such campaigns and they suck. They suck hairy goat turds covered in piss flavored mud.

Killing gods is RARELY done. Not even other gods do it. Killing an avatar? Sure. The diety itself is another matter. It's one of the things I've always hated about forgotten realms as well as D&D in particular. Gods are too easy to end.

That's why I live that pf and Paizo will never publish stats for major deities.

Indeed. Paizo has to make a choice here because no matter what they do they will alienate one faction or another; there is no way to please both the "gods should have stats" and "gods shouldn't have stats" crowd. (Personally, I think avatars/aspects are the best of both worlds, but even that isn't universal.) Given that, I believe they made the right decision, and there's nothing stopping those folks in the other camp who want statted deities to just make it up themselves.


GMs always have carte blanche to screw with players, so I'm not sure what your point is. If a GM (or a writer, in the case of the hack that wrote Wrath of the Righteous) wants to have a god **** the players, they will. If not, they won't.

Punching gods being a good thing is also subjective. I prefer the gods to be hands off, working entirely through agents and kept from direct intervention except in limited ways through specific channels (like commune or Miracle) and minor appearances (I like Desna's optional cameo to aid the players in Carrion Crown book 3 a good way of handling it: a slight cosmetic change for the players and a minor stat boost, relying on a specific narrative event to trigger. I added a one-shot 'counterspell' effect to help them in an unfair as written encounter later). This is also basically canon, since IIRC the god shave agreed no touchy on Golarion since the whole planet is one big prison for Rovagug and nobody wants a war to spring up on the planet and open the cage.

Right - Rovagug works a lot like the OotS "Snarl" in that respect, a force so powerful and destructive that it enforces divine cooperation and a tenuous status quo.

[Calthropstu]

I can name three different book series where the protagonists kill gods off the top of my head -- The Night Angel Trilogy, Malazan: Book of the Fallen, and Lord of Light (technically just a single book). All of those are good, and Lord of Light can credibly claim to be the best book of all time. Godslaying is just like any other plot point. It has to be set up and executed well, but when it is it works. Not to mention the super toxic effect of having an explicit in-world mechanism for the DM screwing with your character.

Yes, I know it's a fantasy trope. You missed the belgarath novels as well as the sparhawk novels by the same author and several others.

Yes, I know of them.
Again, it is rare. And gms rarely do it well. Destroying gods requires something special. Eddings, for example, had the gods targetted in his universe asleep or entrapped so they could not directly oppose the protagonists.

When all it requires is a simple artifact to kill a deity, you can bet your ass that artifact will be watched VERY carefully by those deities... and it would not survive for long.

As for "screwing with your character," the way D&D/Pathfinder is set up you NEED all powerful beings capable of telling the PCs "No." Otherwise some of them will steamroll over everything in sight. Others will directly try to shift power balances based on their ideals.

So yeah. Unstatted deities is a GOOD thing.

[Florian]

It amuses me that people think "avatars of the DMs whims are literally invincible, even in the face of the most powerful possible PCs" is a good thing. People have been killing gods in D&D since before I was born.

Big difference. Golarion (the PF core setting), uses a model what deities and divinities mean that's different from the usual D&D approach. True deities are major cosmic forces that both shape and represent how everything functions. Pharasma is not "a goddess of life and death", she is "life and death". The default example is the death of Aroden, deity of human empires and the power of prophecy. When Aroden died, all human empires went into decline and prophecy lost its power.

The lower ranks are inconsequential (*) on the cosmic level and can be fought as usual and ranges from hero deities up to empyreal lords, demon lords and lords of Hell, with everything connected to the Dark Tapestry (ie. Prime Material-bound gods like the Great Old Ones) working just a small bit differently.

(*) Exception are spirits of the land. Basically, when you kill the spirit of the Mississippi, the river will start to slowly die as a result.

Let´s put it this way: Lloth would be the Demon Lord of Drow, but no true divinity.