Paimon Vestige

[cartejos]

So in the rules for using vestiges it says that
1. All powers granted by vestiges are supernatural
2. Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless otherwise noted


So for Paimon and his Dance of Death ability, it's just a standard action?
I know there are inconsistencies in DnD, but this seems like a pretty huge one, as it is one of the few that I know of that grants many attacks with a standard action (The other 2 being manyshot and improved whirlwind attack).

Using a standard action to move your speed and attack anyone you move past just seems naggingly exploitable and I can't think of anything to exploit it other than maybe Factotum giving extra standard actions.

The errata doesn't have any clarification on it either.

Anyway, the point of this post is to either find a way to try and break Paimon while also pointing out other funny observations in the same tree

[Venger]

Yes, it's a standard action. Where exactly is the inconsistency? You can only attack people you move past once, if you're a build who's leaning on paimon, then you're probably a finesse build and deal minimal damage with each strike because you're not a brute, you're restricted to your speed and not 2x your speed like a normal ubercharger, and you provoke aoos the whole time so need to roll a bunch of tumble checks. This ability is extremely weak. You're not breaking the game by using it. If you wanted it to actually do something, precision damage is as good a place as any to start. If you're evil, throw maiming strike on there and dole out tiny amounts of cha damage to everyone you clip.

[Long_shanks]

First of all, we would have to determine what "make an attack against any creature you move past". It doesn't say you make an attack at your highest attack bonus or some such. I would therefore argue that you couldn't make more attacks than you could normally do in a round. It only gives you a way to make a full attack in a round where you have to move, which is a nice tactical option, but in no way broken.

EDIT: Especially with Venger's caveats above.

[cartejos]

It does seem weak, but even Truenamers can get broken somehow, right? I was thinking some Flat Damage buffs and maybe an on-hit effect or twenty. Maybe a crit-fisher of some fashion could do something nice. I understand the reasoning for having to sacrifice any extra attacks you might have, but the paimon ability sure would be better if it allowed Knockback or something similar to trigger

[Venger]

First of all, we would have to determine what "make an attack against any creature you move past". It doesn't say you make an attack at your highest attack bonus or some such. I would therefore argue that you couldn't make more attacks than you could normally do in a round. It only gives you a way to make a full attack in a round where you have to move, which is a nice tactical option, but in no way broken.

EDIT: Especially with Venger's caveats above.
No.

"An attack" does in fact mean making a normal attack, using the attack action, using your highest bonus (because it doesn't stipulate otherwise.) Assuming you blast through a narrow hallway of weak enemies who are stupidly standing single file, you are entitled to attack them all as long as you have enough movement, though, as I elucidated above, you're not going to be doing all that much to them.


It does seem weak, but even Truenamers can get broken somehow, right? I was thinking some Flat Damage buffs and maybe an on-hit effect or twenty. Maybe a crit-fisher of some fashion could do something nice. I understand the reasoning for having to sacrifice any extra attacks you might have, but the paimon ability sure would be better if it allowed Knockback or something similar to trigger
It is weak. No. Flat damage buffs are okay, I guess, but again, if you want to just deal a bunch of hp damage as a melee fighter, then you are probably better off doing something uberchargerlike. Even assuming you are a binder (either predominantly, or with a dip/splash and are mostly another class) you would likely be focusing primarily on vestiges like Andras or Chupoclops if that was your goal.

Critfishing is mutually exclusive with dance of death, since you can only target each enemy once per dance, and realistically, you'll be making one dance a combat if that, whereas critfishing is best with a twfing precision damage user, such as a typical rogue, swordsage, factotum, etc. Those types of characters get a lot of attacks and can allocate them as they see fit, they don't have all the caveats dance of death imposes.

dance of death doesn't stop knockback from working, just, again, if you're a character who has knockback, that implies certain things about you, and it's not really beneficial to invest resources into being both a brutish fighter and a finesse-based fighter, you'll end up being bad at both styles of combat.

[Deophaun]

If you were going to optimize it, you would begin by optimizing speed. It's never going to be a great single-target option, but if you find yourself up against an army, a move speed of 360' will translate to a lot of total damage. You just need a +34 to your Tumble check to not have to bother rolling to maintain full speed without provoking an army's worth of AoOs.

[SLOTHRPG95]

If you were going to optimize it, you would begin by optimizing speed. It's never going to be a great single-target option, but if you find yourself up against an army, a move speed of 360' will translate to a lot of total damage. You just need a +34 to your Tumble check to not have to bother rolling to maintain full speed without provoking an army's worth of AoOs.

I don't have my books with me, does it have to be movement on foot? Since if not, hitting a high move speed plus having flyby attack and good or perfect maneuverability isn't too hard, at which point you just use it once per combat as a nice "hit everyone nearby in one round" ability. Not broken, but not shabby.

[Venger]

If you were going to optimize it, you would begin by optimizing speed. It's never going to be a great single-target option, but if you find yourself up against an army, a move speed of 360' will translate to a lot of total damage. You just need a +34 to your Tumble check to not have to bother rolling to maintain full speed without provoking an army's worth of AoOs.
Persistent footsteps of the divine is the stock answer. Hit all enemies in the dungeon and then some. Getting a tumble boost that high by that level is fairly trivial


I don't have my books with me, does it have to be movement on foot? Since if not, hitting a high move speed plus having flyby attack and good or perfect maneuverability isn't too hard, at which point you just use it once per combat as a nice "hit everyone nearby in one round" ability. Not broken, but not shabby.
No, it does not. Good suggestion.

[Long_shanks]

No.

"An attack" does in fact mean making a normal attack, using the attack action, using your highest bonus (because it doesn't stipulate otherwise.) Assuming you blast through a narrow hallway of weak enemies who are stupidly standing single file, you are entitled to attack them all as long as you have enough movement, though, as I elucidated above, you're not going to be doing all that much to them.


Seems you are right (I was getting confused with Pathfinder's wording; God it's been a while since I played 3.5). Now, what can we do to optimize this? Get as small a possible so we can pass right through squares while attacking seems like a good start. Invisibility + sneak attack (and Craven)+ Power attack + Shadow blade (with an indecent dex) + reach seems like a good follow-up. Otiax has a power that gives you a 10 ft. melee touch attack so that synergizes pretty well (though we lose the str/dex bonus to damage).

I've got the inkling of a Unseen seer/Anima mage build to try to get all of this, but it would just be straight up worse than any normal Anima mage.

[Venger]

Those are definitely valid options. Depending on feat and level availability, phase cloak could also work, since it makes you ethereal while moving, obviating tumble checks unless enemies can target ethereal, which is fairly uncommon.

[Thurbane]

Paimon's Dance of Death is most effective against large group of enemies, and when you have a high movement rate.

Reach weapons can help with the AoO, if you don't want to reply on tumble.

Skirmish/precision damage can make the effects more effective (so long as you can trigger the damage), as well as rider effects that apply to every hit.

You can build a decent hit and run attacker using Dance of Death, but it requires a lot of investment.

Don't forget, Paimon's other perks, especially Whirlwind Attack, combine well with reach and fighting multiple opponents.

[Nifft]

Paimon shows a major flaw of the Binder.

Sure, you can build around this one vestige with a decent trick. But then you've thrown away the alleged true strength of the Binder, which is the ability to swap vestiges on a daily basis. Through resource investment, you've turned a T3 into a T4.

What ought to happen is Paimon ought to give you enough perks that you don't need to build around using that one decent trick.

[Thurbane]

I dunno, +4 untyped bonus Dex, Uncanny Dodge and untrained Tumble with a +4 bonus aren't all that bad. Whirlwind Attack, Dance of Death and (limited) Weapon Finesse are all (situationally) useful.

[Psyren]

I think the Binder's primary problem is that the vestiges it doesn't have to build around to be good come too late. That plus the inability to bind more than one vestige for nearly half your career makes T3 a tough sell early on. Later when you get stuff like Chupoclops and Haures, plus more vestige slots, T3 is easier to see (T2 with Zceryll). But I'll take Radiance House's Pactmaker (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/pactmaker) class over the Binder any day, outside of multiclassing or gestalt.

[ben-zayb]

Dance of Death seems like a modified Spring Attack, except you don't get to combo stuff like Snap Kick into it. I'd optimize it similarly, thus, with sky-high Hide check, HiPS, and Sneak Attack. Binder/Swordsage sounds interesting.

Persistent footsteps of the divine is the stock answer.This combination is impossible after the errata.

[Venger]

This combination is impossible after the errata.

What are you talking about?

[StreamOfTheSky]

I always liked the idea of a Duskblade 13 / Dervish 3 or such build that can move and attack every enemy to make best use of Duskblade's full attack w/ a touch spell (which is limited to once per enemy for the full attack anyway).
Paimon's Dance of Death would be a nice substitute to avoid the heavy feat cost of Dervish, but sadly I don't think it counts as a full attack technically, so it doesn't work.

It's still potentially fun if you have something else to attach to your attacks. Maybe a Glaivelock w/ the eldritch essences applied?
Maybe the Souleater PrC in BoVD?


Paimon shows a major flaw of the Binder.

Sure, you can build around this one vestige with a decent trick. But then you've thrown away the alleged true strength of the Binder, which is the ability to swap vestiges on a daily basis. Through resource investment, you've turned a T3 into a T4.

What ought to happen is Paimon ought to give you enough perks that you don't need to build around using that one decent trick.

I disagree.... You can take Paimon and hop to other classes. But there is also merit in staying Binder (and probably Knight of the Sacred Seal of Paimon) and getting other vestiges that compliment his style, like the one that gives you 50% miss chance against attacks while moving (combine w/ the Cause Overreach tactic of Elusive Target, among other options), the one that gives you a 10 ft reach touch attack, etc... And since you'll eventually have 4 vestiges, you can always leave one slot for the utility vestige. Really, once you have two at level 8 onwards, you can have your everyday vestige (Paimon) and your utility vestige. When you get your 3rd and 4th, you just tack synergistic vestiges onto the Paimon build and leave one slot for utility.
The binder handbook specifically has Paimon-focused vestige combos like the above. Paimon-based Binder is still viable being mostly Binder. I do think you probably want som dips in there, so maybe not pure Binder, but like...75% or so Binder.

[Telok]

It should combo well with scout to get some bonus damage. Swordsage or warblade can get some swift action damage boosts and mobility enhancements. The shadowhand feat gets you dex to damage. I seem to recall several ways to get one round duration improved invisibility, that would enable sneak attack dice stacking.

I don't know that it would do for a primary combat schtick, but if you can fit it into a dex/bonus damage build it should do ok.

[Thurbane]

I seem to recall several ways to get one round duration improved invisibility, that would enable sneak attack dice stacking.

Monk 2 with the Invisible Fist ACF (EoE): Swift action to become invisible for 1 round; can be activated 1/3 rounds, so times well with Dance of Death. It's not a great use of 2 levels, but it works.

[Blue Jay]

Monk 2 with the Invisible Fist ACF (EoE): Swift action to become invisible for 1 round; can be activated 1/3 rounds, so times well with Dance of Death. It's not a great use of 2 levels, but it works.

The ninja gets ghost step (basically the same thing) at 2nd level, plus a little extra precision damage to go with it. If you're looking for a precision-based dancer-of-death, this might be a slightly more efficient use of two levels.

[heavyfuel]

The ninja gets ghost step (basically the same thing) at 2nd level, plus a little extra precision damage to go with it. If you're looking for a precision-based dancer-of-death, this might be a slightly more efficient use of two levels.

An extra d6 points of damage if the enemies are dex-denied is nice, but it doesn't make ninja the obvious choice.

Monks get slightly better HD, better Fort and Will, unlimited uses per day and not restricted to 1+Wis modifier, 3 extra feats, and better splat book support.

If the party already has someone with trapfinding, I'd much rather take monk over ninja.

[liquidformat]

This is literally just a less feat intensive way to become a dervish so we can use the archetypes established in dervish handbook to find baselines and compare the power of the build. Personally I think going power dancer might be an easier option to work around than trying to work in bonus damage to a finesse build. So you are really 4 feats and a 2 level barbarian dip away from making it work. So Power Attack, Combat reflexes, Deft opportunist (CV), & Karmic strike (CW) with a reach weapon and just wade into combat beating everything that attacks you. Add in Troll blooded, and knockdown and you can be an army killing machine.

[Troacctid]

Persistent footsteps of the divine is the stock answer. Hit all enemies in the dungeon and then some. Getting a tumble boost that high by that level is fairly trivial
You can't persist a spell with a discharge effect.

[Venger]

You can't persist a spell with a discharge effect.

This limitation is absent in complete arcane, the most recent version of the feat.

[Blue Jay]

An extra d6 points of damage if the enemies are dex-denied is nice, but it doesn't make ninja the obvious choice.

Monks get slightly better HD, better Fort and Will, unlimited uses per day and not restricted to 1+Wis modifier, 3 extra feats, and better splat book support.

If the party already has someone with trapfinding, I'd much rather take monk over ninja.

Okay yeah, the monk does have a lot to offer, especially in terms of survivability. I was more concerned with making sure you get your precision damage in. You have to wait 5 rounds between Dances of Death, and 3 rounds between Invisible Fists, so that leaves you with a lot of rounds of scavenging for precision damage. A ninja's ghost step can be used round-after-round, so it's a reliable and easy way to get in your precision damage outside of your special combo, and it also gives your hit points a little extra protection during that time too.

[Thurbane]

Is there a handbook to getting rider effects on melee hits?

[ben-zayb]

This limitation is absent in complete arcane, the most recent version of the feat.
I just checked the book, and saw the clause about spells whose effect is discharged. I suggest you look at the feat again. That specific Chuck E. Cheese trick has been destroyed around a decade ago by the Complete Champion errata making the spell discharged.

[Troacctid]

This limitation is absent in complete arcane, the most recent version of the feat.
No it isn't? :smallconfused:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/467192850862571522/469316985612926997/unknown.png

[Telok]

Okay yeah, the monk does have a lot to offer, especially in terms of survivability. I was more concerned with making sure you get your precision damage in. You have to wait 5 rounds between Dances of Death, and 3 rounds between Invisible Fists, so that leaves you with a lot of rounds of scavenging for precision damage. A ninja's ghost step can be used round-after-round, so it's a reliable and easy way to get in your precision damage outside of your special combo, and it also gives your hit points a little extra protection during that time too.

If I recall the ninja tricks all run off ki, which I believe the ninja gets level+wis bonus. So, 5/day of regular invisibility for one round? I don't remember the guy who loved ninjas at our table getting improved invis untill rather a bit later.

If I were to do a finesse build for it I'd consider either trying to work it into a swift hunter build or a swordsage with the dex-to-damage feat and a good swift damage boost.

[Heliomance]

Is there anything interesting we can do with the fact that "move past" is never defined? It also never specifies that your attack has to be a melee attack.

[Nifft]

Is there anything interesting we can do with the fact that "move past" is never defined? It also never specifies that your attack has to be a melee attack.

With every album she publishes, Taylor Swift can make an emotional attack against each of her ex-boyfriends.

[Heliomance]

I think a good rigorous definition of "move past" would be "cross the plane drawn through the target orthogonal to your direction of movement", given that we need something that works at range. Any objections? I'm having trouble thinking of any other definition that makes sense.

[Deophaun]

I think a good rigorous definition of "move past" would be "cross the plane drawn through the target orthogonal to your direction of movement", given that we need something that works at range. Any objections? I'm having trouble thinking of any other definition that makes sense.
Travel in a circle, attack the world. (Or at least everything up to the horizon)

[ben-zayb]

With every album she publishes, Taylor Swift can make an emotional attack against each of her ex-boyfriends.
They are hits alright, did they actually hit?

[StreamOfTheSky]

Ok, I've used invisible Fist before. I thought it was regular invisibility, not greater invisibility. So how would it help you sneak attack the room?
Cloak of Deception boost is more useful with Dance of Death. Save Invisible Fist for making arrow, boulder, and other traps that have an attack roll miss you because they "can't see you." :smallbiggrin:


This is literally just a less feat intensive way to become a dervish so we can use the archetypes established in dervish handbook to find baselines and compare the power of the build. Personally I think going power dancer might be an easier option to work around than trying to work in bonus damage to a finesse build. So you are really 4 feats and a 2 level barbarian dip away from making it work. So Power Attack, Combat reflexes, Deft opportunist (CV), & Karmic strike (CW) with a reach weapon and just wade into combat beating everything that attacks you. Add in Troll blooded, and knockdown and you can be an army killing machine.

Yeah, Dance of Death is basically just a more accessible Dervish Dance. And always Power Dancer, it's the best! :smallsmile:
Plus, having a 2H reach weapon means you can attack enemies as you "move past" them more easily.

As for rider effects, if you're sneak attacking, Staggering Strike is the obvious starting point. There's also the "Ambush" feats, but they generally suck. Hamstring is ok...

[Venger]

Ok, I've used invisible Fist before. I thought it was regular invisibility, not greater invisibility. So how would it help you sneak attack the room?
Cloak of Deception boost is more useful with Dance of Death. Save Invisible Fist for making arrow, boulder, and other traps that have an attack roll miss you because they "can't see you." :smallbiggrin:



Yeah, Dance of Death is basically just a more accessible Dervish Dance. And always Power Dancer, it's the best! :smallsmile:
Plus, having a 2H reach weapon means you can attack enemies as you "move past" them more easily.

As for rider effects, if you're sneak attacking, Staggering Strike is the obvious starting point. There's also the "Ambush" feats, but they generally suck. Hamstring is ok...
It lasts til the beginning of your next turn, meaning that it does not decloak you after you attack like the invisibility spell. It is, in effect, greater invisibility.

[Thurbane]

It lasts til the beginning of your next turn, meaning that it does not decloak you after you attack like the invisibility spell. It is, in effect, greater invisibility.

Exactly: if something makes you invisible, you don't apply the rules outlined for breaking invisibility under the invisibility spell, unless the ability specifically says "as per the spell". The Invisible Fist ACF does not have this stipulation.

[Heliomance]

Travel in a circle, attack the world. (Or at least everything up to the horizon)

Not possible with a grid based movement system because you don't have the ability to continuously vary your direction of travel - you have to move from one five foot square to another in a straight line. You can do the same thing by moving from five feet below ground level to five feet above ground level though, and I don't think there's any useful way to prohibit that - you are in fact moving past them.

So, to abuse this as much as possible, we want a ranged attacker with flight and earth glide, a burrow speed, or incorporeality. We want as large a range as possible, the ability to ignore cover, and either high single shot damage or, more likely, as many rider effects as we can get.

Another abusable point: Dance of Death prohibits extra attacks from "abilities or feats". It says nothing about extra attacks granted by items. A Splitting weapon is absolutely kosher, anything else we can use for extra attacks?

[Venger]

Good checklist of abilities. One of my old builds for villainous competition (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19662157&postcount=67) ticks most of those boxes. There's always master's touch to get proficiency in a good ranged weapon (warlock/sorcerer/eldritch theurge/earth dreamer) gives flight, earth glide, invis, and some other stuff. might be a useful jumping off point to cherry-pick powers from.

[Heliomance]

Possibly worth looking at using Bloodstorm Blade to throw crescent knives? Nice easy doubling of attacks, though it does limit range somewhat

[Venger]

what book is crescent knife from again?

[Heliomance]

Dragon #275. That said, if we end up going into Bloodstorm Blade then the whole thing becomes pointless, because BB's capstone of "make one attack against every target in range" is better in every way except for being a full round action.

[Deophaun]

Not possible with a grid based movement system because you don't have the ability to continuously vary your direction of travel - you have to move from one five foot square to another in a straight line.
This is not true as the game states that you are assumed to be moving within your square. You technically don't even have to move out of your square to move in a circle.