Dex to damage Shuriken

[JMAP94]

Hey everyone,

Just wanted to know if there's any way one could get dex to damage for Shuriken. Can't find any, but I was wondering if there's was some obscure thongsmabobber from some random book that I don't know about. If not, sad face, but my characters pretty good in melee anyways.

3rd party is also allowed, as long as I can show my dm and it's balanced.

Crud. Forgot to mention this is for pathfidner.
Thanks.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Take the Shadow Blade feat, from ToB, and enhance your shurikens with the aptitude special quality.

Then look at this thread for more: www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry
Take the Shadow Blade feat, from ToB, and enhance your shurikens with the aptitude special quality.

Nicely thingamabobbered.

:smalltongue:

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Nicely thingamabobbered.

:smalltongue:Add returning and make them from aurorum, and you'll only need as many of them as you have attacks for each combat, or less, if you stay in one place. Even better if you give them the raptor arrow enhancement to turn them into bane (everything) weapons.


Crud. Forgot to mention this is for PathFINDer.Ask your DM to use some 3.5 stuff?

? http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2n1tq?Any-way-to-add-Dex-modifier-to-damage ?

[Elricaltovilla]

+1 agile (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/agile/) shuriken should be fine for your purposes. But don't use returning. Get a blinkback belt (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/belt-blink-back/) instead and use that. I suppose the argument could be made that this isn't strictly RAW, but personally I think it's a completely reasonable setup.

Normally I'd just recommend Deadly Agility (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats/deadly-agility-combat/), but by RAW that's melee only. You could ask your GM to allow it to work with thrown weapons, it's hardly broken that way.

[CharonsHelper]

+1 agile (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/agile/) shuriken should be fine for your purposes. But don't use returning. Get a blinkback belt (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/belt-blink-back/) instead and use that.


Both of those are wrong.

1. Agile only works in concert with Weapon Finesse - which is melee only. You can't use Weapon Finesse with shuriken, but even if you could you can't use Weapon Finesse at range. So - no using Agile at range.

2. The blinkback belt doesn't work with shuriken because they're ammo and the blinkback belt works with one-handed & light melee weapons.

Pathfinder was specifically designed to NOT allow dexterity to ranged damage, though there might be some 3rd party stuff out there.

[Elricaltovilla]

Both of those are wrong.

1. Agile only works in concert with Weapon Finesse - which is melee only. You can't use Weapon Finesse with shuriken, but even if you could you can't use Weapon Finesse at range. So - no using Agile at range.

2. The blinkback belt doesn't work with shuriken because they're ammo and the blinkback belt works with one-handed & light melee weapons.

Pathfinder was specifically designed to NOT allow dexterity to ranged damage, though there might be some 3rd party stuff out there.

Thank you for deliberately misquoting me. If you look at the first sentence in my second paragraph you'll note I point out that it isn't strictly RAW right away.

However, to quote the Agile property:


Agile weapons are unusually well balanced and responsive. A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with an agile weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons.

By RAW all it does is allow you to apply dexterity in place of strength with weapon finesse weapons. It makes no specification regarding it being melee only.

And to quote Thrown Weapons:


Thrown Weapons: The wielder applies his Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range column on Table: Weapons), and a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.

Therefore, because Agile does not have a melee only requirement, only that you possess the weapon finesse feat, you can substitute your Dexterity to damage for the Strength to damage with light thrown weapons. So what you said here:


Pathfinder was specifically designed to NOT allow dexterity to ranged damage, though there might be some 3rd party stuff out there.

is actually incorrect, unless there is an errata of which I am unaware. Oh, and in case you want more evidence that your statement was wrong, please check the gunslinger class' Bolt Ace (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger/archetypes/paizo-gunslinger-archetypes/bolt-ace) Archetype under their Crossbow Training (Ex) ability.

[JMAP94]

Both of those are wrong.

1. Agile only works in concert with Weapon Finesse - which is melee only. You can't use Weapon Finesse with shuriken, but even if you could you can't use Weapon Finesse at range. So - no using Agile at range.

2. The blinkback belt doesn't work with shuriken because they're ammo and the blinkback belt works with one-handed & light melee weapons.

Pathfinder was specifically designed to NOT allow dexterity to ranged damage, though there might be some 3rd party stuff out there.

Yeah that was my problem with agile when i looked into it. I thought there might be some feat out there, it seems balanced to me that you have to basically give up a feat to switch the source of damage/to hit so it wouldn't surprise me if there's some obscure 3rd party feat somwhere, and as a player I will find it. Though as a GM (and not a player) I actually like that strength is to damage for ranged weapons, it prevents Dex from being the god stat that it is in 5e (You use Dex to avoid damage, deal damage at ranged and with finesse weapons, and sneak to avoid even being seen in the first place). I'm still probably going to keep some shuriken just for flavor and for using the "Disarming Shot" maneuver.

[Elricaltovilla]

Yeah that was my problem with agile when i looked into it. I thought there might be some feat out there, it seems balanced to me that you have to basically give up a feat to switch the source of damage/to hit so it wouldn't surprise me if there's some obscure 3rd party feat somwhere, and as a player I will find it. Though as a GM (and not a player) I actually like that strength is to damage for ranged weapons, it prevents Dex from being the god stat that it is in 5e (You use Dex to avoid damage, deal damage at ranged and with finesse weapons, and sneak to avoid even being seen in the first place). I'm still probably going to keep some shuriken just for flavor and for using the "Disarming Shot" maneuver.

Use a star knife instead, with the blinkback belt and agile property. It meets all the requirements that I listed above and looks like a giant shuriken anyway.

What class are you playing? There may be alternatives to Dex to damage available to you.

[JMAP94]

Thank you for deliberately misquoting me. If you look at the first sentence in my second paragraph you'll note I point out that it isn't strictly RAW right away.

However, to quote the Agile property:



By RAW all it does is allow you to apply dexterity in place of strength with weapon finesse weapons. It makes no specification regarding it being melee only.

And to quote Thrown Weapons:



Therefore, because Agile does not have a melee only requirement, only that you possess the weapon finesse feat, you can substitute your Dexterity to damage for the Strength to damage with light thrown weapons. So what you said here:



is actually incorrect, unless there is an errata of which I am unaware. Oh, and in case you want more evidence that your statement was wrong, please check the gunslinger class' Bolt Ace (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger/archetypes/paizo-gunslinger-archetypes/bolt-ace) Archetype under their Crossbow Training (Ex) ability.

I thought Agile is only a melee weapon enchantment though. I don't have any of the books (except some Dreamscarred stuff), so I use d20 only so i might be wrong.

[JMAP94]

Use a star knife instead, with the blinkback belt and agile property. It meets all the requirements that I listed above and looks like a giant shuriken anyway.

What class are you playing? There may be alternatives to Dex to damage available to you.

The combination im playing is weird. Im playing a Teisatsu/Night Terror (From Dreamscarred Press' Divergent Paths:Fool's Errand) Vigilante.

[Elricaltovilla]

The combination im playing is weird. Im playing a Teisatsu/Night Terror (From Dreamscarred Press' Divergent Paths:Fool's Errand) Vigilante.

You do know I used to write for DSP right? That's not that weird.:smalltongue:

Then use Tempest Gale Stance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/tempest-gale-maneuvers/#TOC-Tempest-Gale-Stance) to add your initiation modifier to damage. It won't be your DEX but I assume your IM is at least comparable.

[CharonsHelper]

Thank you for deliberately misquoting me. If you look at the first sentence in my second paragraph you'll note I point out that it isn't strictly RAW right away.

Sorry - but that being the case, you formatted your post very oddly. I read it as the second paragraph being tied together - so that RAW comment applied only to Deadly Agility.

[Elricaltovilla]

Sorry - but that being the case, you formatted your post very oddly. I read it as the second paragraph being tied together - so that RAW comment applied only to Deadly Agility.

I've edited my post to be more clear.

[Psyren]

By RAW all it does is allow you to apply dexterity in place of strength with weapon finesse weapons. It makes no specification regarding it being melee only.

It isn't "not strictly RAW", it's actually breaking the rules of Agile. You missed this line:


This special ability can be placed only on melee weapons usable with Weapon Finesse.

This isn't finagling something vague, it's outright houseruling text out of an ability.

[Elricaltovilla]

It isn't "not strictly RAW", it's actually breaking the rules of Agile. You missed this line:



This isn't finagling something vague, it's outright houseruling text out of an ability.

Where you're pulling that line from is me explaining how you can use Agile on a thrown weapon like a Throwing Axe, Dagger, Star Knife, etc. All of which are light melee weapons with throwing ranges.

[Vertharrad]

Agile (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/agile/)

This is the relevant information...
Requirement: This special ability can be placed only on melee weapons usable with Weapon Finesse.
Same as what it says at the end of the description in Hells Rebels: Song of Silver


...I was ninjad it would seem

[Psyren]

Where you're pulling that line from is me explaining how you can use Agile on a thrown weapon like a Throwing Axe, Dagger, Star Knife, etc. All of which are light melee weapons with throwing ranges.

Yeah but not shuriken, which is what you were specifically suggesting adding Agile to. I was pointing out that "not strictly RAW" was an understatement there.

[JMAP94]

Thanks to everyone who's posting here, taking time out of your day to help me out. I might take the option of showing my dm some 3.5 stuff but in already full on feats with realistic likeness, Diasho expertise, and deadly agility right now that are all must haves, and in going for discipline focus next feat, so this won't be for a while.

Also, gotta say elricatovillia, being almost an exlusively martial player (I like swords and pointy things), I love path of war.

So, in seeing that the only real way to do it is find a throwing weapon useable with weapon finesse.

Though, I got one more question. Here's what s on the website on Shuriken: "Benefit: Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them, and what happens to them after they are thrown."

Here's my question: is there any other way, besides fluff, that Shuriken do act as thrown weapons?

[Bucky]

Feats and other abilities that require throwing weapons can use shuriken.

Flinging Charge is an example of such a feat.

[Psyren]

Shuriken are in the "thrown" Fighter group as well as the "Monk" group. That alone qualifies them for a lot of stuff. Being treated like ammunition for enchanting purposes is a big deal too.

[CharonsHelper]

Shuriken are in the "thrown" Fighter group as well as the "Monk" group. That alone qualifies them for a lot of stuff. Being treated like ammunition for enchanting purposes is a big deal too.

Yes - I've thought before that it'd be cool to build a Ninja who dipped Umonk (probably the dragon archetype to use CHA) for flurry and focused upon tossing stars using Flurry of Stars whenever a foe is flat-footed. Especially great if there is a buffing bard in the party to boost your stupid # of SA boosted attacks. By level 5ish he could be giving each of your 5 attacks +4 accuracy & +4 damage all of the time if he can snag a Banner of Ancient Kings (5 is probably early - though the group should probably all throw in to snag ASAP), not to mention when he throws out spell buffs.

Just need to get a buddy to enchant the shuriken with Greater Magic Weapon, Flaming Arrow, and other such spells ( I can't think of more decent duration ones off the top of my head). Instead of buying weapon enchantments they would just buy a few Pearls of Power for their caster buddy to use of them.

[NightbringerGGZ]

Would somebody sanity check me? Four levels as a Human Fighter allows you to grab Martial Versatility (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/martial-versatility-combat-human), which would allow you to transfer Slashing Grace (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/slashing-grace-combat/) from a butterfly sword over to a shuriken. Also allows the shuriken to count as a one-handed pierching weapon for feats and class abilities, which might open up other options.

Another idea would be 4 levels of Weapon Master Fighter, granting early access to the Advanced Weapon Training and a +1 Weapon Training bonus. Picking up Gloves of Dueling boosts the bonus to +3, and the Trained Throw AWT option doubles the damage bonus. That's +3 attack and +6 damage, plus you still get to add your strength bonus. You could go Ninja after that point for the Flurry of Stars build.

There's also Startoss Style, which if you can afford all three feats would net a flat +6 bonus damage.

Another interesting option is Ricochet Toss at BAB 6 after getting some fighter levels. This won't work with shurikens, but it would allow for a dual-wielding thrown weapons build to get away with fewer weapons. Also allows for switching between melee and thrown attacks fairly effectively.

[CharonsHelper]

Would somebody sanity check me? Four levels as a Human Fighter allows you to grab Martial Versatility (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/martial-versatility-combat-human), which would allow you to transfer Slashing Grace (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/slashing-grace-combat/) from a butterfly sword over to a shuriken. Also allows the shuriken to count as a one-handed pierching weapon for feats and class abilities, which might open up other options.

The FAQ in the link you put for Slashing Grace specifically says "Slashing Grace only works with melee attacks, not thrown attacks with a melee weapon.".

So you could probably apply Slashing Grace to shuriken, but only when you used them in melee (plus the extra limitations of one-handed & not shield etc.).

[Erit]

Thanks to everyone who's posting here, taking time out of your day to help me out. I might take the option of showing my dm some 3.5 stuff but in already full on feats with realistic likeness, Diasho expertise, and deadly agility right now that are all must haves, and in going for discipline focus next feat, so this won't be for a while.

Also, gotta say elricatovillia, being almost an exlusively martial player (I like swords and pointy things), I love path of war.

So, in seeing that the only real way to do it is find a throwing weapon useable with weapon finesse.

Well, you're already using Path of War; why not try to get a Stalker Art? Killer's Implements lets you use Weapon Finesse and Deadly Agility with one weapon you're proficient with, regardless of if those feats would normally apply to those weapons, and regardless of if you have those feats.

Matter of fact, why not just play a Stalker Bushi? I don't actually have the books for the classes you've already mentioned, just seems if you're going for some sort of Path of War ninja you'd have an easier time using Stalker with the Bushi archetype, maybe Vigilante as well if you're aiming for Int over Wis. But that's just me.

[JMAP94]

Well, you're already using Path of War; why not try to get a Stalker Art? Killer's Implements lets you use Weapon Finesse and Deadly Agility with one weapon you're proficient with, regardless of if those feats would normally apply to those weapons, and regardless of if you have those feats.

Matter of fact, why not just play a Stalker Bushi? I don't actually have the books for the classes you've already mentioned, just seems if you're going for some sort of Path of War ninja you'd have an easier time using Stalker with the Bushi archetype, maybe Vigilante as well if you're aiming for Int over Wis. But that's just me.


I hear you with the stalker bushi, but i need mockingbird and seemless shapeshifter. im playing a kitsune, and one of my shticks is that I can disguise as anyone.

Also i hear you with you on killer implements but i thought that only applied to melee weapons

[Erit]

Also i hear you with you on killer implements but i thought that only applied to melee weapons

Well douse me in kerosine and strike me like a match, so it does. My bad, apparently I actually do need glasses.