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mgshamster
2018-07-18, 11:10 AM
A simple question.

Just, in your own words, what do you think an edgelord is, as a character (not as a troll or a real person).

Scripten
2018-07-18, 11:23 AM
Generally they are characters that are tragic, but feel absurd due to the nature of their execution. That is, they are unrealistically dour, uncooperative, or angsty. I find that it is less a matter of specific points of plot or characterization, as a character can have an outright depressing backstory and still be multifaceted and interesting.

The common definition likely includes things like having a mountain of dead friends/relatives, dark clothing, "repressed" emotions up the wazoo, and being Drizz't.

Ninja_Prawn
2018-07-18, 11:29 AM
(not as a troll or a real person).

I always thought 'edgelord' referred to a type of player, like 'munchkin' or 'rules lawyer'...

Anyway, in my own words: a character that is overly edgy or angsty, especially to the detriment of verisimilitude or player fun. The '90s Antihero' page on TVTropes is their bible.

mgshamster
2018-07-18, 11:33 AM
character that is overly edgy

As a follow up - what is it to be 'edgy'?

Segev
2018-07-18, 11:40 AM
Being "edgy" generally means you're trying to be on the edge of shocking, if not more than a little over. An "edgy" character is one who is trying to live on the edge of morality. Antiheroes, sympathetic villains, "dark" characters who have unacceptable or antisocial behaviors that are supposed to be sympathized with and accepted anyway due to their traumatic pasts that "justify" them.

An "edgelord" is a character who is designed to be the edgiest of the edgy. Dark, troubled, "misunderstood" by design (and yet don't you dare fail to understand him how his designer wants you to, as an audience or as main characters), and prone to some combination of brooding silence, violent outburst, and oversharing of tragic backstories.

This is because an "edgelord" is almost parodic. But often, not intentionally so.




Alternatively, it could be one of the lords of the keeps that form the outermost borders of the empire, along a mountain range known as "the Edge."

JNAProductions
2018-07-18, 11:42 AM
Shadow the Hedgehog, in his titular game.

I would consider probably the most defining, relative to the rest of the table, trait of an edgelord is that their character does NOT play nice with others. Not necessarily fighting them, or working against them, but they don't care about the other characters. They're very selfish characters.

You can have an edgy, angsty character (although I'd prefer you didn't) but you HAVE to work well with the party. Maybe the party saved your life, and while you angst over that, you know you owe them. Maybe they're simply friends, and some of the few people who you can actually open up to. Maybe something else. The point is, make sure your character, even if their natural instinct is to be a loner, sticks with and helps the party.

Hooligan
2018-07-18, 11:58 AM
Player brings an actual sword to gaming sessions
Character uses 2 katanas
Character adventures to "avenge my dead parents"
Character has heterochromia
Player wears a duster and possibly sunglasses inside
Player/Character is unnecessarily quarrelsome with party members and NPCs.
Player exclusively plays Drow, Tiefling, Vampire, or Lycanthrope characters
Character is named "Drizz't" or "Legolas" (I find this one does not occur as frequently as it did in the late 90's/early 00's)
Character unsolicitedly tells others "I have a dark past" or "I have a lot of scars inside"
Character backstory: A. is like 6-7000 words long AND/OR B. Reads like bad fan fiction obviously aping popular fantasy characters
Character has a genius-level intellect, player has crumbs on him (it is usually a male).


Good examples of "edgy" behavior. True, I've not provided a rigorous definition but I think this paints a vivid picture.

Pex
2018-07-18, 12:03 PM
Another word for Drama Queen. It's all about "me me me". This player only cares about his character and his character's story. He has an elaborate backstory and wants to continue it through the game. When plot happens in game that does not directly relate to his character he doesn't want to be involved. He wants motivation as to why he should bother, and even then couldn't care less. Other players are to be tolerated to exist at the table as the price he must pay to play his story.

mgshamster
2018-07-18, 12:03 PM
You can have an edgy, angsty character (although I'd prefer you didn't) but you HAVE to work well with the party.

What if you're playing a solo game?

JNAProductions
2018-07-18, 12:04 PM
What if you're playing a solo game?

Then just play well with the DM. You can do a lot in a solo game you can't with a party.

gkathellar
2018-07-18, 12:20 PM
It's someone who's trying way too hard to be cool.

Nifft
2018-07-18, 12:28 PM
An attention hog wrapped in a flag of suffering.

The suffering part can be worked into a game, if it's too disruptive, but the attention hog part often needs to be overcome.

Segev
2018-07-18, 12:44 PM
What prompted this question, anyway, mgshamster?

Anonymouswizard
2018-07-18, 01:14 PM
The prime example is of course Marty/Ao-Sue from The SUE Files. While others may beat him in a single element he gains extra points for literally being lord over his favourite fictional realities and being able to read the GM's mind as a character power.

More generally, has an agnsty personality (at least in theory) and more than one of the following elements, the more the better.
-Dual wields katana. They are the best swords ever created.
-Have a unique, ideally 'gothic' look.
-Be a member of a unique species or bloodline.
-Be absolutely hated by everybody. Bonus points if it's only a backstory element and never comes up in game.
-Absolutely loved by everybody. Likely never comes up in game.
-Is significantly more powerful than they have any right to be, even if not supported by their game mechanics.
-Has a special destiny. Either they're the chosen one, chosen to help the chosen one do everything, or something else stupid.
-Their name is incredibly long or obviously is supposed to be cool. Like Darksaber Stormeater.

Note that these elements aren't generally that bad on their own, I've even considered a character for a supervillains game who's power is literally 'everybody within a couple of hundred metres who sees them likes them', a sort of super charisma/mind control mix. It's the combination of them, likely most of them, that creates the Edgelord.

Didn't we make a set of DIY Edgelord tables at some point? I remember supplying a random dead family member chart (I still do want to create a random backstory system, the problem is I can't justify it outside of my homebrew game as it'll essentially be a Lifepath chargen system).

EDIT: Found it! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?540671-Darkangst-Edgemourn-the-PC&highlight=edgelord)

mgshamster
2018-07-18, 01:20 PM
What prompted this question, anyway, mgshamster?

A friend of mine asked me to read a book for him, to see if he would like it. I'm big into scifi books, and he's more into fantasy genre. And he had heard that this book was similar to a fantasy novel he liked.

I'm about halfway through, and from the opening chapter the main character just screams 'Edgelord' to me. But I am having a hard time explaining why.

So I thought if I asked what an edgelord was in a forum where I value the opinion of most everyone, it would help me put into words why this character in an edgelord.

Basically, we have a guy who is dark and powerful. He starts off in prison about to be exectued for his crimes. Some call him a war criminal, for he has killed billions of people and even destroyed an entire star (killing all the people living on the planets around that star). But others call him a hero. And before he dies, he wants to tell you, the reader, his story.

His story is that he's a Noble's first born son and he was born into wealth and privilege, including genetic enhancement, top notch education and combat training, a path to wealth and power where he would be set for life... But father doesn't love him, and so his life is filled to the brim with tragedy. Father doesn't like that he's going against the grain of society and family tradition (because the empire is rather evil and oppressive and he doesn't like ruling by fear) and that he isn't doing exactly as father wants him to. So he runs away (getting people killed in the process, but always somehow through no fault of his own), and then bad things keep happening to him and the people around him. Sometimes it's not his fault and so highlights the tragedy in his life. Sometimes it is his fault, for which he has no end of self-pity.

Seruously, self-pity drips off his tongue like molasses. It's getting to the point where I can predict exact lines from him before they happen.

He got into an argument with a friend of his, and he went one step too far with his words. His friend punched him. And I immediately thought, "He's going to say I deserve this." And sure enough, he did! Within the paragraph. And then twice more in the chapter. Other friends are concerned and ask him about what happened, "but eventually, they too left me alone as I deserve. I deserved to be alone."

I've even been able to predict full story archs and events. He fell in love with a girl and spent two years with her. I asked myself, "What would he the most tragic thing to happen which could add yet more tragedy to this Character?" And look and behold, it happens! She dies in his arms from something he has no power to stop - in this case, the plague.. He's immune to the plague, because of his genetic enhancement from being a Noble's son.

Every step of the way, all I've had to do to predict what would happen is ask, "What would happen to this character which would add tragedy or self-pity to him?" And so far, that thing has happened every single time.

About a third of the way through the book, I got the feeling that this isnt just some character in a novel, but it's actually the author's Character. Like, a D&D character. I could swear that the author picked up the 5e PHB and said, "I want a character with all the backgrounds!" I've actually made a list of all the 5e PHB backgrounds and have been able to check almost all of them off as to which apply to this character.

The book starts with him both a Criminal and a Folk Hero, then he tells the story of being a Noble where dad wants him to become an Acolyte in the setting's primary church (to the point where he's been educated in all religious law and custom and can even recite the punishment for religious crimes off the cuff), but he doesn't want to be an Acolyte, he wants to be a Sage like his tutor - the only man who acted like a father to him. So he runs away to join the Sage college, but tragedy happens (of course) and he ends up an Urchin. He falls in love, but she dies. So what's next? Let's become a Gladiator (Entertainer variant). But he's only doing that to buy a ship and become a Sailor (literally, space ship crews in this book are called Sailors).

But then he finds out that he can't actually afford one by being a gladiator, so he uses his Guild Merchant knowledge (his Noble family got their wealth by creating a monopoly, and so he's been trained in how to negotiate with the Guilds and navigate the markets) to talk shop with the ships guild. And then he tries to run a con (Charlatan) on the guild by using his privilege from being a Noble to spend money that he doesn't have and try and have his father's account pay for it (which he knows will never happen).

I'm still waiting for Outlander and Hermit to show up. Since we know that he eventually will lead an army, that means Soldier will come up eventually.

I still have about 40% of the book to go, and I've promised my friend I'll read it to the end. But at this point, I've lost all hope that it will get any better.

It would be decent if it were a satire, but it unfortunately isn't. It's means to be a serious scifi space opera where the main character is truly a dark and tragic individual who just so happened to muder billions of people and enslave an entire sentient species. But he's really the hero. Or anti-hero. Or whatever.

Segev
2018-07-18, 01:54 PM
Okay. To simplify it, an Edgelord is a particular brand of Mary Sue. He (and it's usually a he, though it CAN be a she) will be the tragic Sue, and will mix being an iconoclast with "darkness," because Dark Is Cool. He'll either be cursed with evil powers but strive to use them for good, or be from an evil society and be struggling to be good but darn it, his upbringing keeps telling him all the wrong (i.e. evil) ways to handle things. But never quite "too" evil. Unless the evil is really necessary (and thus totally justified, honest), and then often just an excuse to feel sorry for himself.

The Edgelord is the tragedy Sue mixed with the antihero Sue. He often substitutes "unique bloodline" for "unique amongst the heroes, because I come from the evil culture."

They want to be Worf or Teal'c, but take it waaaay over the top.

Mordar
2018-07-18, 02:17 PM
The common definition likely includes things like having a mountain of dead friends/relatives, dark clothing, "repressed" emotions up the wazoo, and being Drizz't.

I think this is probably a minority opinion...but Drizz't isn't an Edgelord. He is what Edgelords want to be, and fail...and that is why they are Edgelords.

At least, the first 6-9 Drizz't books. Beyond that, I think Salvatore lost some creative control, or at least interest.

- M

Scripten
2018-07-18, 02:45 PM
I think this is probably a minority opinion...but Drizz't isn't an Edgelord. He is what Edgelords want to be, and fail...and that is why they are Edgelords.

At least, the first 6-9 Drizz't books. Beyond that, I think Salvatore lost some creative control, or at least interest.

- M

Absolutely. That section of my post was meant to list traits that people use to define Edgelord characters that don't necessarily mean anything. The important part of any Edgelord character is that they are unbelievable. (As in, literally so - they break suspension of disbelief.)

Andor13
2018-07-18, 03:40 PM
A friend of mine asked me to read a book for him, to see if he would like it. I'm big into scifi books, and he's more into fantasy genre. And he had heard that this book was similar to a fantasy novel he liked.

I'm about halfway through, and from the opening chapter the main character just screams 'Edgelord' to me. But I am having a hard time explaining why.

That... sounds absolutely dreadful. And yes, it does scream edgelord.

Braininthejar2
2018-07-18, 03:45 PM
So... Sasuke?

Daremonai
2018-07-18, 03:59 PM
...some truly horrifying stuff.

Dear gods, how have you managed to keep your brain from destroying itself in protest?

Segev
2018-07-18, 04:07 PM
Dear gods, how have you managed to keep your brain from destroying itself in protest?

He did say that he trusts our judgment. Are we sure he hasn't been driven mad?

2D8HP
2018-07-18, 04:10 PM
As a follow up - what is it to be 'edgy'?


If his tear ducts had not long dried out one such as Steeldark Darksteel McAngsty would weep blood that you don't know what "edgy" means

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/DBz7VOtVYAA4AKW.jpg:small


The master of the assassin school is already doomed to failure, because he is working against the prophecy foretelling Darkblade Shadowedge's supremacy.
He is the chosen vessel of the ancient spirit of the first assassin. We know this because only a half tiefling, half aasimar child can withstand the forces burning inside the vessel of the ancient spirit of the first assassin.

Darkblade Shadowedge always refers to himself as "Darkblade Shadowedge, vessel of the ancient spirit of the first assassin"


Needs 500% more torture.

Leather, leather and leather. Also, metal studs everywhere, even when he's trying to sneak around. I don't know why looking like you got lost on your way to the BDSM club is edgy, but it is.

Also good candidates are words invovling death or imagery of death. Can't forget RAVEN DARKBLADE.

You simply cannot forget the gritty exposition as he talks to himself in his mind. Some **** like 'The rain was cold and wet. And it still wouldn't wash the sins off of me.'


http://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/-aQL4PSDQQ-k0NvedKNQPQbaEYI=/11x0:556x363/1200x800/filters:focal(11x0:556x363)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/48572959/bauer.0.0.jpg

.
2D8HP curses cruel fate:

CURSE YOU CRUEL FATE!
"mumble, mumble, mumble, I must, mumble WHATEVER THE COST! :smallfurious:

Luccan
2018-07-18, 04:33 PM
It's notable, an Edgelord is generally formed from a poor handling of tropes and cliches (both of which can be used well by a decent writer), rather than displaying specific traits. A character like Zuko could easily become an edgelord and a character like Cloud actually has in everything outside his original game, but they don't have much in common except power and a lot of reasons to be angry and sad. It's the poor handling of power and tragedy that makes a classic edgelord, but it can just be a poor handling of tragedy.

mgshamster
2018-07-18, 04:47 PM
In case anyone else wants to read this travesty, here it is:

Empire of Silence (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/36454667-empire-of-silence)

Note that it has a ton of good reviews on Goodreads. That was rather shocking to me. I checked out the Goodreads reviews when I was about a quarter of the way into the book just to see if anyone else was as appalled by the book as I was, and it turns out that very few have been.

Most of the one star reviews are from people who thought it was so bad that they didn't even finish it. They got a lot of criticism for that, so I'm determined to finish it now just so I can give it a complete review.

Even from the beginning when the Edgelordiness screamed at me, I thought, "Maybe it will get better." But it hasn't yet.

I don't know.. maybe one of you will read it and see something good about it that eludes me. Maybe it's not the writing but the narrator (I'm listening to the audiobook, so the sorrow and pity are much more evident in the voice). It's like all the sorrow and tragedy of Darrow from Red Rising, but coming from a privileged brat instead of an oppressed people.

Here's the snippet from the back of the book:


It was not his war.

The galaxy remembers him as a hero: the man who burned every last alien Cielcin from the sky. They remember him as a monster: the devil who destroyed a sun, casually annihilating four billion human lives—even the Emperor himself—against Imperial orders.

But Hadrian was not a hero. He was not a monster. He was not even a soldier.

On the wrong planet, at the right time, for the best reasons, Hadrian Marlowe starts down a path that can only end in fire. He flees his father and a future as a torturer only to be left stranded on a strange, backwater world.

Forced to fight as a gladiator and navigate the intrigues of a foreign planetary court, Hadrian must fight a war he did not start, for an Empire he does not love, against an enemy he will never understand.

A note: he wasn't forced to fight as a gladiator. He literally chose it. He walked in and asked to sign up. Just goes to show the extra pity the author tries to heap on.

2D8HP
2018-07-18, 05:09 PM
Not only have I finished some deeply "Edgelord" novels, I have even re-read them, such as Michael Moorcock's "Corum" series, which begins with

A Knight of Swords (1971):

"In those days there were oceans of light and cities in the skies and wild flying beasts of bronze. There were herds of crimson cattle that roared and were taller than castles. There were shrill, viridian things that haunted bleak rivers. It was a time of gods, manifesting themselves upon our world in all her aspects; a time of giants who walked on water; of mindless sprites and misshapen creatures who could be summoned by an ill-considered thought but driven away only on pain of some fearful sacrifice; of magics, phantasms, unstable nature, impossible events, insane paradoxes, dreams come true, dreams gone awry, of nightmares assuming reality.

It was a rich time and a dark time. The time of the Sword Rulers. The time when the Vadhagh and the Nhadragh, age-old enemies, -were dying. The time when Man, the slave of fear, was emerging, unaware that much of the terror he experienced was the result of nothing else but the fact that he, himself, had come into existence. It was one of many ironies connected with Man, who, in those days, called his race "Mabden."

The Mabden lived brief lives and bred prodigiously. Within a jew centuries they rose to dominate the westerly continent on which they had evolved. Superstition stopped them from sending many of their ships toward Vadhagh 9.and Nhadragh lands for another century or two, but gradually they gained courage when no resistance was offered. They began to feel jealous of the older races; they began to feel malicious.

The Vadhagh and the Nhadragh were not aware of this. They had dwelt a million or more years upon the planet which now, at last, seemed at rest. They knew of the Mabden but considered them not greatly different from other beasts. Though continuing to indulge their traditional hatreds of one another, the Vadhagh and the Nhadragh spent their long hours in considering abstractions, in the creation of works of art and the like. Rational, sophisticated, at one with themselves, these older races were unable to believe in the changes that had come. Thus, as it almost always is, they ignored the signs.

There was no exchange of knowledge between the two ancient enemies, even though they had fought their last battle many centuries before.

The Vadhagh lived in family groups occupying isolated castles scattered across a continent called by them Bro-an-Vadhagh. There was scarcely any communication between these families, for the Vadhagh had long since lost the impulse to travel. The Nhadragh lived in their cities built on the islands in the seas to the northwest of Bro-an-Vadhagh. They, also, had little contact, even with their closest kin. Both races reckoned themselves invulnerable. Both were wrong.

Upstart Man was beginning to breed and spread like a pestilence across the world. This pestilence struck down the old races wherever it touched them. And it was not only death that Man brought, but terror, too. Willfully, he made of the older world nothing but ruins and bones. Unwittingly, he brought psychic and supernatural disruption of a magnitude which even the Great Old Gods failed to comprehend.

And the Great Old Gods began to know Fear. And Man, slave of fear, arrogant in his ignorance, continued his stumbling progress. He was blind to the 10.huge disruptions aroused by his apparently petty ambitions. As well, Man was deficient in sensitivity, had no awareness of the multitude of dimensions that filled the universe, each plane intersecting with several others. Not so the Vadhagh nor the Nhadragh, who had known what it was to move at will between the dimensions they termed the Five Planes. They had glimpsed and understood the nature of the many planes, other than the Five, through which the Earth moved.

Therefore it seemed a dreadful injustice that these wise races should perish at the hands of creatures who were still little more than animals. It was as if vultures feasted on and squabbled over the paralyzed body of the youthful poet who could only stare at them with puzzled eyes as they slowly robbed him of an exquisite existence they would never appreciate, never know they were taking.

"If they valued what they stole, if they knew what they were destroying," says the old Vadhagh in the story, "The Onfy Autumn Flower," "then I would be consoled."

It was unjust.

By creating Man, the universe had betrayed the old races.

But it was a perpetual and familiar injustice. The sentient may perceive and love the universe, but the universe cannot perceive and love the sentient. The universe sees no distinction between the multitude of creatures and elements which comprise it. All are equal. None is favored. The universe, equipped with nothing but the materials and the power of creation, continues to create: something of this, something of that. It cannot control what it creates and it cannot, it seems, be controled by its creations (though a few might deceive themselves otherwise). Those who curse the workings of the universe curse that which is deaf. Those who strike out at those workings fight that which is inviolate. Those who shake their fists, shake their fists at blind stars.

But this does not mean that there are some who will not try to do battle with and destroy the invulnerable.

There will always be such beings, sometimes beings of great wisdom, who cannot bear to believe in an insouciant universe.

Prince Corum Jhaelen Irsei was one of these. Perhaps the last of the Vadhagh race, he was sometimes known as The Prince in the Scarlet Robe.

This chronicle concerns him...."


And the single fantasy novel that I've most re-read,

The War Hound and the World's Pain (1981),

also by Michael Moorcock, began:

"It was in that yeat when the fashion in cruelty demanded not only the crucifiction of peasant children, but a similar fate for their pets, that I first met Lucifer.
Until May of 1631 I had commanded a troop of irregular infantry, mainly Poles, Swedes, and Scots. We had taken part in the destruction and looting of the city if Magdeburg, having somehow found ourselves in the army of the [........] forces under Count Johann Tzerclaes Tilly. Wind-borne gunpowder had turned the city into one huge keg and she had gone up all of a piece, driving us out with little booty to show for our hard work.
Disappointed and belligerent, Westfield by the business of rapine and slaughter, quarreling over what pathetic bits of goods they had managed to pull from the blazing houses, my men elected to split away from Tilly's forces. His had been a singularly ill-fed and badly equipped army, victim to the pride of bickering allied. It was a relief to leave it behind us.
We struck south into the foothills of the Hartz Mountains, intending to rest. However, it soon became evident to me that some of my men had contracted the Plague, and I deemed it wise, therefore, to saddle my horse quietly one night and, taking what food there was, continue my journey alone.
Having deserted my men, I was not yet green from the presence of death or desolation. The world was in agony and shrieked its pain..."

And it goes on for pages with a backdrop of the 30 years war (1618 to 1648), befofe getting to the supernatural elements, and it's not hard for a reader to think of 20th century parallels, but as much as I mock the like now, as a teenager, I ate it up.

I had actually read the sequel, 1986's

City in the Autumn Stars (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_City_in_the_Autumn_Stars%23Plot_summary&ved=2ahUKEwi2sdzp2t7aAhWJ_p8KHZ8fC0kQygQwAHoECAQQA w&usg=AOvVaw1e6XpljVgy7axIUZdg6PiT)

which has the French reign of terror as a backgrounf first, the protaganist of which, a descendent of the War Hound, is initially more of a hero that inspires sympathy than the War Hound.

Anyway, after pages of character building biography, the protaganist of The War Hound and the World's Pain, Graf Ulrich von Bek, enters "the oak groves of the northern fringes of the great Thuringian Forest", and finds that "the deeper into the forest I moved the less life I discovered", , and "Through the treetops I saw clear blue sky, and sunlight warned the glades. But insects danced in the beans; no bees crawled upon the leaves of the wild flowers; not even an earthworm twisted about the roots, though the soil was dark and smelled fertile", until "breaking out of the forest proper one afternoon, I saw before me a green, flowery hill which was crowned by the most beautiful castle I had ever beheld", he wonders "How could a building demand calm, to the degree that not even a mosquito would dare disturb it?"¡ but while "It was my first impulse to avoid the castle, but my pride overcame me", and "I refused to believe that there was anything genuinely mysterious...."

It's not much of a spoiler to say that what starts a historical tale of a man who's become evil in an evil time of war becomes a fantasy of redemption, and it's the fantasy novel that, perhaps to my shame, I've probably re-read the most, even more than Tolkien

And then there's the Elric stories...

Is it possible to squee and shudder at the same time?

Anonymouswizard
2018-07-18, 05:18 PM
At this point it's important to point out that good writing can make the edgiest of Edgelords work, because that's true of everything.

I'm struggling to read the first Polity novel because the AIs are just coming off as so Mary Sueish and annoying, and the main character isn't really that likeable. But I loved how unlikeable Case was in Neuromancer (I found it a highlight of the book), and love the Minds from the Culture books (who at least have a massive sense of humour, if Possessing a Disturbing Lack of Gravitas*), so it's entirely possible that just being more into SF books (of a certain type potentially) you're noticing more flaws. The rented might be from people only looking for Epic space opera, while you're noticing the lack of decent characterisation.

* Original Character do not steal.

DavidSh
2018-07-18, 05:25 PM
And I was hoping that an Edgelord was just the matter-of-fact term for a lord who's area of rule covered land at the Edge of the World. Analogous to a Marcher Lord in England or a Margrave in continental Europe, he would be given special status in recognition of his responsibility in dealing with that which comes from beyond the Edge.

I remember a Larry Niven story, "Transfer of Power" I think it was, where one such Edgelord had been deposed for imposing high taxes in order to keep off the Cloud Dragons.

Xuc Xac
2018-07-18, 05:51 PM
It seems that everyone is using "edgelord" to mean "emo marysue". Is that specific to fanfic subculture? The way I've seen edgelord used everywhere else (I try to avoid fanfic) is rather different.

There's a line between "stuff that's OK" and "stuff that's not ok". In a D&D game, it's ok to kill orcs. Even if your character has an Evil alignment on their character sheet, very few players would think it's acceptable tabletop behavior for your character to rape the orc infants. That's the kind of thing that makes the other players at the table say "dude, you crossed a line!" Edgelords try to get as close as possible to that line without crossing it while drawing attention to themselves for doing it. Basically, they act as badly as they can without suffering the consequences of bad behavior.

Antiheros and outright villains are legitimately exploring darker sides of human experience. Edgelords claim to be doing that while they're actually just playing a stupid game of "I'm not touching youuuu!" with morality, ethics, and good taste.

MrStabby
2018-07-18, 06:32 PM
Having read this the first character that comes to mind is the main protagonist from the TV Series Dr Who:

Last of his super special kind
Responsible for the deaths of his entire species; but
It was kind of justified
and he angsts about it
Is loved across the cosmos
Is hated...
Is feared...
Goes a little bit bad from time to time
Has a disproportionate number of plot connections to random events
Goes out of his way to be "quirky" and is generally an attention seeker

Would they qualify?

Mr Beer
2018-07-18, 06:42 PM
Generally someone who wants to explore the persona of a dark, mysterious, misunderstood, brooding person who does things which are shocking to mere mortals, as a result of their unfathomable inner pain. Who also just happens to be an ultraviolent total badass.

Essentially an angsty teenager's wank fantasy.

mgshamster
2018-07-18, 06:43 PM
Listening to the book on the way home and heard this little clip that I just had to share:

"Her face, all of them, even mine, was a work of art. To say this is not a compliment. Not truly. We have no choice but to be perfect."

Oh, the misery of being perfect, of being beautiful. Lament in his genetic enhancements, and pity him for he is perfect.

super dark33
2018-07-18, 06:57 PM
It seems that everyone is using "edgelord" to mean "emo marysue". Is that specific to fanfic subculture? The way I've seen edgelord used everywhere else (I try to avoid fanfic) is rather different.

There's a line between "stuff that's OK" and "stuff that's not ok". In a D&D game, it's ok to kill orcs. Even if your character has an Evil alignment on their character sheet, very few players would think it's acceptable tabletop behavior for your character to rape the orc infants. That's the kind of thing that makes the other players at the table say "dude, you crossed a line!" Edgelords try to get as close as possible to that line without crossing it while drawing attention to themselves for doing it. Basically, they act as badly as they can without suffering the consequences of bad behavior.

Antiheros and outright villains are legitimately exploring darker sides of human experience. Edgelords claim to be doing that while they're actually just playing a stupid game of "I'm not touching youuuu!" with morality, ethics, and good taste.


This.



Edgelord has different meanings if talking about media or real life, with people who are the latter tending to create characters who are the former.


You know that guy at the table who keeps making misyoginist/racist jokes/slurs and gleeful vague/blatant references to mass murderous events in recent history? Who searches shock content on the internet and brags about it? Who enjoys disrupting other people and making people upset? Who thinks he reinvented the wheel of comedy with the brand new notion of Sarcastic Quips?

This guy IDEALIZES being a jerk so much he thinks it proves hes smarter than everyone else.


Guys like him make edgelord characters, essentially a min-max of personality traits they deem "superior":
Aloof, snarky, dark, tragic, mysterious, logical, classy, well cultured.... everything they want to be.
Obviously they misunderstand all these traits ajd end up with a psychotic jerk.

Anonymouswizard
2018-07-18, 07:11 PM
Having read this the first character that comes to mind is the main protagonist from the TV Series Dr Who:

Responsible for the deaths of his entire species;

When did that happen? Certainly not during the run of any of the eight Doctors.

Seriously, worst bit of the new serieses. The programme worked fine with the Time Lords as an occasionally appearing reminder that the Doctor want the largest fish in the sea.

Kitten Champion
2018-07-18, 11:16 PM
To me, an Edgelord is a persona - be it a fictional character or an affectation one puts on themselves - which actively attempts to spurn any sense of sympathy you might have for them while still trying to command respect.

If you're not respected, then there's nothing you gain through the fantasy as you can be dismissed out of hand, which isn't empowering. Edgelord is mostly a performance one gives, if no one's bothering to stick around to play off it the performance becomes largely meaningless.

If you're too sympathetic, like by compiling tragic elements on top of yourself, you can become The Woobie. Essentially an object of heightened pity. Which, being the Woobie is a fantasy some enjoy as well, but usually it's not complimentary to being an Edgelord where emotional distance is valued.

There's a degree of shallowness in executing such a persona/character that determines whether it's ridiculous or not. Which is mostly subjective and contextual. Like, I consider Raistlin Majere from the Dragonlance novels to be a huge Edgelord - he's mostly composed of negative traits and not especially sympathetic even when he's suffering, there's a lot of sardonic comments aimed toward everyone around him constantly just so you know he's a complete bastard at all times, even his red robes are an in-universe shorthand for edgy moral ambiguity without expressly making him into a black-hat, and yet his sheer abilities as a mage and general personal situation means everyone has to tolerate his presence- while others may consider him a rich antihero.

Elanasaurus
2018-07-19, 01:18 AM
Generally someone who wants to explore the persona of a dark, mysterious, misunderstood, brooding person who does things which are shocking to mere mortals, as a result of their unfathomable inner pain. Who also just happens to be an ultraviolent total badass.

Essentially an angsty teenager's wank fantasy.I can authoritatively verify that this is accurate.
:elan:

Sinewmire
2018-07-19, 04:59 AM
Personally, I define an Edgelord as a character with a massively tragic backstory who is using said backstory as an excuse to be a jerk.

A tragic figure who, instead of inspiring sympathy, inspires you really want to punch them in the nose.

Bonus points if they are Cursed With Awesome, some sort of terrible darkness within that nobody understands or would allow if they knew about it, that somehow only ever seems to work out in their favour.

Eldan
2018-07-19, 05:32 AM
Having read this the first character that comes to mind is the main protagonist from the TV Series Dr Who:

Last of his super special kind
Responsible for the deaths of his entire species; but
It was kind of justified
and he angsts about it
Is loved across the cosmos
Is hated...
Is feared...
Goes a little bit bad from time to time
Has a disproportionate number of plot connections to random events
Goes out of his way to be "quirky" and is generally an attention seeker

Would they qualify?

New Doctor occasionally slips into it, yeah. He would honestly be quite insufferable if he was the only protagonist, that's why he needs companions. Also, the best New Who stories are almost without exception those where they just entirely ignore that backstory and go off to some planet somewhere to have some fun in an exotic location and solve a mildly difficult ethical dilemma or puzzle monster.

BreaktheStatue
2018-07-19, 06:42 AM
Whenever I hear "Edgelord" I automatically think of the movie, The Crow, and more specifically, people who got really, really into The Crow. It's not necessarily a bad movie, but it was basically the archetype for "Edgelord" for my generation, even if we never used that word.

EDIT: Also "Queen of the Damned" (the movie), or anything - music, clothing, whatever - that Hot Topic carried in the 1990s, back when it was basically "Edgelord: The Store" and not just geek culture.

BreaktheStatue
2018-07-19, 07:02 AM
Shadow the Hedgehog, in his titular game.

I would consider probably the most defining, relative to the rest of the table, trait of an edgelord is that their character does NOT play nice with others. Not necessarily fighting them, or working against them, but they don't care about the other characters. They're very selfish characters.

You can have an edgy, angsty character (although I'd prefer you didn't) but you HAVE to work well with the party. Maybe the party saved your life, and while you angst over that, you know you owe them. Maybe they're simply friends, and some of the few people who you can actually open up to. Maybe something else. The point is, make sure your character, even if their natural instinct is to be a loner, sticks with and helps the party.

Ditto on Shadow. That reminds me, if you really want to know what Edgelord is, look for the "Coldsteel the Hedgeheg [sic]" meme. Our table loves the "Nothing personnel kid" phrase.

Eldan
2018-07-19, 07:24 AM
Whenever I hear "Edgelord" I automatically think of the movie, The Crow, and more specifically, people who got really, really into The Crow. It's not necessarily a bad movie, but it was basically the archetype for "Edgelord" for my generation, even if we never used that word.

EDIT: Also "Queen of the Damned" (the movie), or anything - music, clothing, whatever - that Hot Topic carried in the 1990s, back when it was basically "Edgelord: The Store" and not just geek culture.

"Vampire" in general is a good indicator. Doubly so "Vampire in the modern world", and pretty much confirmed once black leather is involved.

Anonymouswizard
2018-07-19, 07:29 AM
"Vampire" in general is a good indicator. Doubly so "Vampire in the modern world", and pretty much confirmed once black leather is involved.

Exemption sometimes given of you're playing Vampire.

Although only if the leather is brown.

Florian
2018-07-19, 07:40 AM
Whenever I hear "Edgelord" I automatically think of the movie, The Crow, and more specifically, people who got really, really into The Crow. It's not necessarily a bad movie, but it was basically the archetype for "Edgelord" for my generation, even if we never used that word.

Huh? How comes? The Crow is basically a supernatural revenge story and it´s not "Edgelord" because the guy actually cares about the teenage girl and the cop, with an ending that has him finding peace in death.

Eldan
2018-07-19, 08:09 AM
Exemption sometimes given of you're playing Vampire.

Although only if the leather is brown.

Vampire the Masquerade? Isn't that basically a standard punchline about the game by now, how it's full of wannabe edgelords?

Florian
2018-07-19, 08:16 AM
Vampire the Masquerade? Isn't that basically a standard punchline about the game by now, how it's full of wannabe edgelords?

Second edition and up.
Original first edition was actually about driving your character into the ground and very much enjoyable for that.

Hooligan
2018-07-19, 08:36 AM
Huh? How comes? The Crow is basically a supernatural revenge story and it´s not "Edgelord" because the guy actually cares about the teenage girl and the cop, with an ending that has him finding peace in death.

Oh come now. How can you ask this with a straight face?

Anonymouswizard
2018-07-19, 08:42 AM
Vampire the Masquerade? Isn't that basically a standard punchline about the game by now, how it's full of wannabe edgelords?

I'll admit I was thinking more of Requiem. Also, that's the joke. I'm implying all Vampire characters wear leather, but only Edgelord ones wear black leather. Which is most of them.

2D8HP
2018-07-19, 08:58 AM
Pshaw!

VtM edgiest?

As if!:


"Live the Dream of '90s Roleplaying! Do you yearn to portray the passionate and harrowing drama of awesome Immortals in a secret supernatural world? Does your heart sing the ancient aphotic melody of '90s storytelling? Does endless fire burn within you to make an everlasting mark on this Darkest Cosmos? If you meet another Immortal in on a windswept street, do you fight with swords as your way of saying hello?
That's because you're a badass, and this book wants to be your best friend and squire. Katanas & Trenchcoats is your personal Egyptian Scots-Spaniard on this deep narrative journey. It presents for you—just you because you're special—a totally unique system that isn't at all ripping off countless other roleplaying games.
So gaze into this abyss, and let it gaze lovingly back. It wants to be a vessel for your truth. Open your heart and live the Immortal dream of the '90s now!
What's in this Action? A custom system that uses d10s. Mind: blown! Rules for creating not just Immortals, but also Vampires, Werebeasts, Technomages, Ghosts, and the Fey-Touched! An exciting setting: the supernatural capital of Darkest Vancouver (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/146955), with callouts to other parts of the Darkest Cosmos. Crave rules for sex and soundtracks? Sink your teeth right in! Want your LARP fix? You're welcome! Why yes, there is a character sheet! AND MUCH, MUCH MORE! (But there's even slightly more in the PREMIUM EDITION!)"

Max_Killjoy
2018-07-19, 09:17 AM
Huh? How comes? The Crow is basically a supernatural revenge story and it´s not "Edgelord" because the guy actually cares about the teenage girl and the cop, with an ending that has him finding peace in death.

The Crow character was not an "edgelord".

A certain sort of fan who missed the entire point of the movie and embraced all the trappings for their RPG character might, however, be playing an "edgelord".

Max_Killjoy
2018-07-19, 09:21 AM
Vampire the Masquerade? Isn't that basically a standard punchline about the game by now, how it's full of wannabe edgelords?

That's how the dorks at White Wolf wanted the game to be played. Like, really really wanted the game to be played, to the point of pontificating at length that anyone not playing that way was Doing It Wrong, Having Badwrongfun, etc, accompanied by snide derision about Superheroes with Fangs directed at anyone who wasn't constantly choking on a Grimderp Angstburger during their VTM sessions.

However, many of us just laughed at the pretentious gobs and got on with enjoying the game.

Segev
2018-07-19, 09:28 AM
That's how the dorks at White Wolf wanted the game to be played. Like, really really wanted the game to be played, to the point of pontificating at length that anyone not playing that way was having Doing It Wrong, and Having Badwrongfun, etc, accompanied by snide derision about Superheroes with Fangs directed at anyone who wasn't constantly choking on a Grimderp Angstburger during their VTM sessions.

However, many of us just laughed at the pretentious gobs and got on with enjoying the game.

I never did get to play my doctor with his "miracle cure" that he secretly gave out to the worst cases to come through his practice at the local hospital. I mean, sure, it required regular maintenance doses, but his patients were very very grateful and thought he was the best doctor ever. Even if he only worked the night shift.

Mikemical
2018-07-19, 10:12 AM
Let's not forget that most of the times, edgelords aim to be seen as "Noble Demons" or "Well-Intentioned Extremists".
They will want to use Necromancy to do good acts in a setting where Necromancers literally draw their power from spreading death and misery to the living.
They will pick up the bound cursed sword that makes you kill a random innocent person every week and steal their soul because "I know I can tame its power!".
They will always be really Chaotic Neutral at best and Chaotic Stupid at worst, even if their character sheet says "Chaotic Good".
They often are thinly-veiled power fantasies of the creator and are quite literally the Author's Pet or Mary/Gary Sue. Whatever "wrong" they commit is always justified, even when it shouldn't.
They are always sitting alone in the corner of the tavern, away from anyone else. Which becomes hilarious if there's two edgelords in the same party, because they'll refuse to share corners but will likely stare deeply into each other's eyes.
They'll always be/pick "hunter"-type classes (Ranger or Scout in less obvious cases or when homebrew isn't allowed) or a homebrew "Demon/Blood/Dark/etc-hunter" class that is often terribly balanced. May or may not include a transformation that is similar to a Furious Berserker's rage where they can't tell friend from foe.

Eldan
2018-07-19, 10:17 AM
Pshaw!

VtM edgiest?

As if!:


"Live the Dream of '90s Roleplaying! Do you yearn to portray the passionate and harrowing drama of awesome Immortals in a secret supernatural world? Does your heart sing the ancient aphotic melody of '90s storytelling? Does endless fire burn within you to make an everlasting mark on this Darkest Cosmos? If you meet another Immortal in on a windswept street, do you fight with swords as your way of saying hello?
That's because you're a badass, and this book wants to be your best friend and squire. Katanas & Trenchcoats is your personal Egyptian Scots-Spaniard on this deep narrative journey. It presents for you—just you because you're special—a totally unique system that isn't at all ripping off countless other roleplaying games.
So gaze into this abyss, and let it gaze lovingly back. It wants to be a vessel for your truth. Open your heart and live the Immortal dream of the '90s now!
What's in this Action? A custom system that uses d10s. Mind: blown! Rules for creating not just Immortals, but also Vampires, Werebeasts, Technomages, Ghosts, and the Fey-Touched! An exciting setting: the supernatural capital of Darkest Vancouver (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/146955), with callouts to other parts of the Darkest Cosmos. Crave rules for sex and soundtracks? Sink your teeth right in! Want your LARP fix? You're welcome! Why yes, there is a character sheet! AND MUCH, MUCH MORE! (But there's even slightly more in the PREMIUM EDITION!)"


Ooooh. "Aphotic".

Psikerlord
2018-07-19, 07:47 PM
Whenever I hear "Edgelord" I automatically think of the movie, The Crow, and more specifically, people who got really, really into The Crow. It's not necessarily a bad movie, but it was basically the archetype for "Edgelord" for my generation, even if we never used that word.

EDIT: Also "Queen of the Damned" (the movie), or anything - music, clothing, whatever - that Hot Topic carried in the 1990s, back when it was basically "Edgelord: The Store" and not just geek culture.

Me too, when I hear edgelord char I think the Crow or Raistlin, as another poster already mentioned. A kind of dark antihero dark, doom and gloom, but powerful, and so allies put up with him/her.

Pippa the Pixie
2018-07-19, 09:57 PM
Player brings an actual sword to gaming sessions
Character uses 2 katanas
Character adventures to "avenge my dead parents"
Character has heterochromia
Player wears a duster and possibly sunglasses inside
Player/Character is unnecessarily quarrelsome with party members and NPCs.
Player exclusively plays Drow, Tiefling, Vampire, or Lycanthrope characters
Character is named "Drizz't" or "Legolas" (I find this one does not occur as frequently as it did in the late 90's/early 00's)
Character unsolicitedly tells others "I have a dark past" or "I have a lot of scars inside"
Character backstory: A. is like 6-7000 words long AND/OR B. Reads like bad fan fiction obviously aping popular fantasy characters
Character has a genius-level intellect, player has crumbs on him (it is usually a male).


Good examples of "edgy" behavior. True, I've not provided a rigorous definition but I think this paints a vivid picture.


Yup. I have one to add.

*Social Awkward guy with little or no dating experience that always plays very attractive female characters.

Nifft
2018-07-19, 10:39 PM
Yup. I have one to add.

*Social Awkward guy with little or no dating experience that always plays very attractive female characters.

That's more of an ecchi-lord.

Max_Killjoy
2018-07-19, 11:17 PM
Some of these definitions are getting into "it means a character I don't like" territory.

Honest Tiefling
2018-07-19, 11:25 PM
Player exclusively plays Drow, Tiefling, Vampire, or Lycanthrope characters

D'awwwww, but I like tieflings. :smallfrown:


Character has a genius-level intellect, player has crumbs on him (it is usually a male).

Dadly dyed or unwashed hair would be the female equivalent from my experience. The character will likely look like three watermelons stuffed into a corset.


Yup. I have one to add.

*Social Awkward guy with little or no dating experience that always plays very attractive female characters.

That's just a neckbeard. 90% of edgelords are played by neckbeards, but you can sometimes spot the various subspecies of neckbeard such as 'prentinouslords' who will replace angst with 'art'.

Eldan
2018-07-20, 02:00 AM
Look, just because you don't understand my character doesn't mean it's not art.

Also, I shave before gaming sessions. Usually.

Cluedrew
2018-07-20, 08:10 AM
Some of these definitions are getting into "it means a character I don't like" territory.Yeah, I've seen at least one that included some comments on quality, so a value judgement. Still I don't think even those definitions are bad, because they include reasons why they don't like the character. Not liking the character because they are excessively dark and brooding is difference than not liking them because they are inconsistently portrayed or are completely devoid of personality.

Besides, from what frame of reference are we supposed to measure except our own?

BreaktheStatue
2018-07-20, 08:30 AM
Some of these definitions are getting into "it means a character I don't like" territory.

For the record, I have no issues with Eric Draven, the character, or The Crow. My point was that the movie, and a lot of others like it in the 90s, inspired a subculture of angsty teenagers - my peers - who aped the aesthetic and displayed a lot of behaviors I would consider to be "Edgelord."

And so, fair or not, the movie will always be associated with "Edgelord" for me.

Morty
2018-07-20, 08:42 AM
Some of these definitions are getting into "it means a character I don't like" territory.

I would say that the thread was firmly in this territory from its conception.

Anonymouswizard
2018-07-20, 09:10 AM
Edgelord is kind of a subjective thing.

It's a bit like the Lesbian Stripper Ninja. It's an archetypal 'bad character' but with enough care or even self awareness it can be done well.

For example, I've never made a passive Edgelord. But I did once make a character who'd grumble about how bad his life has been in the middle of rooting through files to help find information or trying to track down our target. It was actually rather fun, although the party didn't get along with him that well.

Also, my Warlock began as prime Edgelord material, forced into a pact at about 10 because their family was killed and they nearly died while trying to live in the streets. Her actual personality turned out to be fairy Javert, hunting down oathbreakers and those fey who do not abide by the ancient pact.

I'm bad at this. I should at least have called her Darkblade Edgemourn.

Florian
2018-07-20, 09:26 AM
For the record, I have no issues with Eric Draven, the character, or The Crow. My point was that the movie, and a lot of others like it in the 90s, inspired a subculture of angsty teenagers - my peers - who aped the aesthetic and displayed a lot of behaviors I would consider to be "Edgelord."

And so, fair or not, the movie will always be associated with "Edgelord" for me.

And that is funny. Eric is practically the anti-Edgelord. Tragic guy with a grim mission, but actually quite friendly, caring and still in touch with humanity, besides being an undead revenant. That's quite different from the typical brooding and moody a-hole who's aboard the ride because raw power -> VtM, Drizzt clones and such.

Segev
2018-07-20, 09:55 AM
"Edgelord" definitely falls into the "character I don't like" classification list. By that I mean, if somebody's calling a character that, they're almost certainly expressing dislike for the character being so labeled, and if asked for definitions, they'll list the unappealing qualities.

However, it does prescribe a particular flavor of unlikable character. The adjectives in the "dark" family will almost always be applied. They almost universally have a similar look, involving a "gothic" color pallet (usually dark clothing and pale skin, though skin tone can vary as long as it's expressed as part of an overall pseudo-menacing/tragically beautiful/beautifully dangerous look, and the occasional attempt to be 'different' will see the all-white clothing; if it's dressed in bright colors, it probably isn't an edgelord). Their particular brand of annoying backstory will involve "tragedy" and "discrimination," which may or may not be presented as justified. Though not required, many edgelords will be "the one good drow" or similarly "always evil but really cool, honest" race.

They may share other Mary Sue (the broader category of "I don't like this character so I'm calling it that") tendencies towards always being right, having ridiculous powers, etc., but they will NOT share the "universally loved" trait, nor will they be bright and happy. They will angst more than other Mary Sues. They will tend to claim to neither have nor need friends (whereas Mary Sues who angst about nobody liking them will have good friends that they know are friends and just 'forget' about when feeling sorry for themselves). And Edgelords will feel sorry for themselves more than most Mary Sues.

Being "Cursed With Awesome" isn't a uniquely Edgelord trait, but finding an Edgelord that isn't Cursed With Awesome is far harder than any other kind of character.


There's a lot of "I know it if I see it," but the main traits that distinguish it from other labels that essentially mean "it's a lame character I don't like" are the "edginess." Where "edginess" is one's tendency towards faux evil and evil aesthetics with a splash of naughty (but never whatever the creator feels is genuinely unforgivably evil) behavior. If the author thinks drugs are just fine but racial slurs are unforgivable sins, his edgelord will be open-minded and use drugs but hate bigotry in all its expressions. IF the author thinks casual property destruction is "bad boy" behavior, but is highly sensitive about bullying, her edgelord will never be acknowledged to be bullying anybody (even when threatening to blow up their buildings, or following through) and will stand against bullying that the author calls out as such.

You can learn a lot about an author's biases and moral compass by how their edgelords behave. Edgelords never engage in behavior the author actually thinks is reprehensible. Their "evil" is of the sort that "oppressive society calls bad" or, at worst, "cool" evil acts where the real harm can be ignored in favor of focusing on how cool the edgelord looks doing it. It is often shallow enough that you can also recognize genuine versus feigned societal pressures shaping them. They'll dip into "evil" behaviors that society supposedly reviles, but which the author is comfortable enough that nobody will actually think their character is less than awesome for. The author will have their "redeeming" traits all be conformity with social norms that actually lose audience sympathy if broken. The so-called "evil" will be what the author wants to claim is them diverging from social norms, but which are really generally fine, or at least considered "good clean villainy" in fiction.

Max_Killjoy
2018-07-20, 08:43 PM
What I meant was, like a lot of these terms (including the now-silly "Mary Sue" tag), "edgelord" has become so broad as to be meaningless, generates a ton of false-positives, and despite all the trappings literally just means nothing more than "I don't like this character but I want it to sound like it's the character's problem, not my subjective preferences at work".

"Mary Sue" means nothing more than "female character that makes me uncomfortable by not being helpless" or "female character who is too competent for my tastes".

"Edgelord" means nothing more than "character who is too serious, grim, dark, or morally grey for my tastes".

Morty
2018-07-20, 08:45 PM
What I meant was, like a lot of these terms (including the now-silly "Mary Sue" tag), "edgelord" has become so broad as to be meaningless, generates a ton of false-positives, and despite all the trappings literally just means nothing more than "I don't like this character but I want it to sound like it's the character's problem, not my subjective preferences at work".

"Mary Sue" means nothing more than "female character that makes me uncomfortable by not being helpless" or "female character who is too competent for my tastes".

"Edgelord" means nothing more than "character who is too serious, grim, dark, or morally grey for my tastes".

Or now "special snowflake" and "Drizzt clone" just mean "this character strays from the genre norms too far". Same principle.

mgshamster
2018-07-20, 09:04 PM
"Edgelord" means nothing more than "character who is too serious, grim, dark, or morally grey for my tastes".

For me, as the OP, it's not the darkness, the grimness, the morally grey - it's the massive amount of self pity and "I'm the most sorry soul in the universe" while also being someone with a massive amount of wealth and privilege who is perfect at every single endevour whether it's explained or not.

Is that an edgelord? I don't know.

Hooligan
2018-07-20, 09:06 PM
What I meant was, like a lot of these terms (including the now-silly "Mary Sue" tag), "edgelord" has become so broad as to be meaningless, generates a ton of false-positives, and despite all the trappings literally just means nothing more than "I don't like this character but I want it to sound like it's the character's problem, not my subjective preferences at work".


Strongly disagree.

Neither term needs to be rigorous and precise to be valid terms referring to 2 patterns of player/character behavior. A relatively broad description is in fact necessary for them to be useful in the setting of casual discussion on these boards.

The equivalencies you provide are lazy assumptions. Flimflam. The Mary Sue one in particular is an outlandish inference. I'm sure there are some who bastardize the terms and use them as proxies for those sorts of thoughts, but many people dislike both types of player/character for their intrinsic characteristics.

Max_Killjoy
2018-07-20, 09:21 PM
For me, as the OP, it's not the darkness, the grimness, the morally grey - it's the massive amount of self pity and "I'm the most sorry soul in the universe" while also being someone with a massive amount of wealth and privilege who is perfect at every single endevour whether it's explained or not.

Is that an edgelord? I don't know.


It's a character depicting a person with horrible self-awareness.

mgshamster
2018-07-20, 09:42 PM
It's a character depicting a person with horrible self-awareness.

Who also happens to be dark and grim and morally grey. Kind of. I mean, he isn't throughout the meat of the story. Only his "future self" - the guy telling the story - is like that.

Heck. Even up to the point where I am now in the book, all his perfections have been explained. Excellent hand-to-hand combatant? Trained as a nobleman and fought in the gladiator pits. Can navigate the social mores of both the upper elite and the downtrodden? Raised as a Noble and lived as an Urchin stealing to survive.

But I recently got to a part where he's also an expert artist. He's described as doing a charcoal drawing of the cityscape, and complimented on it by some Nobles. It's not explained, he's never talked about art at all in the book up until this point. But what it does do is provide a springboard for the author to complain about non-artists. After the complaint, the subject is abruptly dropped and the artistry hasn't been mentioned since.

Isn't that what a "Mary Sue" is supposed to be? A character who is good at everything without explanation for why? Or do I have that trope wrong? (I'm no expert in tropes, and I'm always happy to be corrected).

Max_Killjoy
2018-07-20, 10:56 PM
Who also happens to be dark and grim and morally grey. Kind of. I mean, he isn't throughout the meat of the story. Only his "future self" - the guy telling the story - is like that.


And what I usually see is too many people doing exactly what the "edgelord" player supposedly did... losing site of the actual issues and mistakenly thinking that it's the dark, grim, and morally grey parts that make the character "bad", or assuming that all dark, grim, or morally grey characters must be "edgelords".




Heck. Even up to the point where I am now in the book, all his perfections have been explained. Excellent hand-to-hand combatant? Trained as a nobleman and fought in the gladiator pits. Can navigate the social mores of both the upper elite and the downtrodden? Raised as a Noble and lived as an Urchin stealing to survive.

But I recently got to a part where he's also an expert artist. He's described as doing a charcoal drawing of the cityscape, and complimented on it by some Nobles. It's not explained, he's never talked about art at all in the book up until this point. But what it does do is provide a springboard for the author to complain about non-artists. After the complaint, the subject is abruptly dropped and the artistry hasn't been mentioned since.

Isn't that what a "Mary Sue" is supposed to be? A character who is good at everything without explanation for why? Or do I have that trope wrong? (I'm no expert in tropes, and I'm always happy to be corrected).



Mary Sue, when used as a specific term, refers to certain sort of author self-insert or wish-fulfilment character in fan-fiction.

https://fanlore.org/wiki/Mary_Sue


"Mary Sue" is more often used as a generic term of derision against a character the speaker/writer personally doesn't find to their subjective taste, in the attempt to superficially dismiss them as "too powerful" or "too perfect".

And then there's the fact that sometimes, the character is female, and wouldn't face the same criticism if she were just gender-swapped.

ImNotTrevor
2018-07-20, 11:20 PM
What I meant was, like a lot of these terms (including the now-silly "Mary Sue" tag), "edgelord" has become so broad as to be meaningless, generates a ton of false-positives, and despite all the trappings literally just means nothing more than "I don't like this character but I want it to sound like it's the character's problem, not my subjective preferences at work".

"Mary Sue" means nothing more than "female character that makes me uncomfortable by not being helpless" or "female character who is too competent for my tastes".

Mary Sues can be men. Then it's a Gary Stu, but the original Star Trek fanfiction character who allegedly inspired the term was named Mary Sue, so the general category for both genders uses the feminine form.




"Edgelord" means nothing more than "character who is too serious, grim, dark, or morally grey for my tastes".
Shadow the Hedgehog is nowhere near too dark for my tastes. He's Kiddie Dark, which is a part of how I note edgelords but not the whole. But Shadow the Hedgehog is the poster boy for edgelords.

So yeah, that's wildly wrong.


Edgelords and Mary Sues are a bit like pornography.

Identifying the exact dividing line is hard and people will disagree, but you pretty much know pronographic material when you see it. You can tell the difference between nude photography for art and nude photography for titillation.

I know Max has me blocked, and I'm about to sound like a jerk, but I've seen this argument before.

Usually from people who get this criticism a lot and rather than noticing the one common factor is their own characterization, decide that no, it is everyone else who has bad taste.

Not saying this is what's happening here, but the last 20 times I saw this argument that was the context.

Rerem115
2018-07-21, 02:08 AM
In common parlance, an Edgelord is a serious, grim, dark, morally grey character that is portrayed ineptly. It should be played seriously, with a straight face, because playing it with a tongue-in-cheek attitude makes it become a parody, rather than a true Edgelord. Edgelords lack self awareness.

Playng a good, truly sympathetic without being absurd antihero is a difficult prospect. It's called "morally complex" for a reason; it's got a lot of depth and moving parts. However, this doesn't stop people from trying to do so anyway. When people with more passion than skill give it a go, the end result is often the equivalent of earnestly saying and believing that a doodle with a wide dry-erase marker on a napkin is a good approximation of Starry Night. This is how Edgelords are born.

Bohandas
2018-07-21, 02:34 AM
Anyway, in my own words: a character that is overly edgy or angsty

Which raises the additional question of how those two unrelated traits got conflated together. Doing audacious things and being emo are like opposites.

Max_Killjoy
2018-07-21, 08:12 AM
Things I've seen fictional or gaming characters get labelled "edgelord" for:



Wears dark clothes.
Has a single long coat of any kind in their closet.
Ever picked up a sword outside of a fantasy setting.
Shadow/darkness powers.
Being even a bit of a loner.
Not immediately trusting other characters in the PC "party".
Tragic past, even if it's all backstory.
Outsider origin, even if it's all backstory.
Any amount of brooding, even in response to actual horrible events in-game or in-story.



And then there's "Mary Sue", the label that gets slapped on characters because they're not bland enough.

https://mythcreants.com/blog/comics/why-you-shouldnt-use-the-term-mary-sue/
http://www.ongoingworlds.com/blog/2015/01/is-the-term-mary-sue-sexist/
http://ladyloveandjustice.tumblr.com/post/13913540194/mary-sue-what-are-you-or-why-the-concept-of-sue
https://seanan-mcguire.livejournal.com/396047.html


E: and with both terms what happens is a combination of the impulse people have to find a term that serves as a quick and easy dismissal (edgelord... Mary Sue... "liberal"... "reactionary"... etc), with the set-subset error.

Edgelords brood... so all brooding characters are edgelords?
Some actual fan-fic Mary Sues have strange eye colors... so all characters with strange eye colors are Mary Sues?
All football players are athletes... so all athletes are football players?

mgshamster
2018-07-21, 08:32 AM
And what I usually see is too many people doing exactly what the "edgelord" player supposedly did... losing site of the actual issues and mistakenly thinking that it's the dark, grim, and morally grey parts that make the character "bad", or assuming that all dark, crime, or morally grey characters must be "edgelords".

Oh, Gods no. Simply being dark or morally grey doesn't make a character bad.

Take Darrow (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/15839976-red-rising), for instance. He is consistently having to make morally grey decisions, but he's one of the best characters I've ever read. Emotionally complex, learns from mistakes... And when his heart breaks, it can bring tears to the reader.

This is a character who is from nothing; his people are oppressed by the ruling class. And he sneaks into the ranks of the ruling class to learn from them so he can overthrow them from the inside.

When you hear sorrow from him, it's legitimate.

One of Darrow's hardest struggles is having to balance the idea of overthrowing the ruling class while also having to deal with the fact that many of these ruling class folks have become his friends, and he doesn't want to see his friends hurt. He'd love it if they could all just join him amd help, but for them doing so means they have to abandon thier lives of comfort. It's a game of politics and secrets and subelty amd betrayal while also being a game of war.

Contrast that to the wealthy nobleman Hadrian, who has an equal amount of sorrow in almost every sentence of the book, approproate to the situation or not, and it all originated because he feels his father doesn't love him enough.

And when I can start predicting what will happen in a book simply by asking myself, "what result will yeild the most tragedy or self-pity?" then there is a problem with the character.

He gets a girlfriend and wants to share with her his desire to find a ship to sail the stars. Yup, she dies. From the plague, at that. He's immune to the plague, though, because of his genetic enhancements as a Noble.

He gets a close friend, one of the closest he's ever had, who he wants to share his secret that he's a Nobleman. Yup, friend gets pissed at him because he didn't share his secret earlier. And when friend punched him, he says, "I deserved that." When his friends walk away from him, he says, "I deserve to be left alone." Emphasis not mine.


Mary Sue, when used as a specific term, refers to certain sort of author self-insert or wish-fulfilment character in fan-fiction.

https://fanlore.org/wiki/Mary_Sue

"Mary Sue" is more often used as a generic term of derision against a character the speaker/writer personally doesn't find to their subjective taste, in the attempt to superficially dismiss them as "too powerful" or "too perfect".

Oh, cool. So I was right.

Although I'm not certain how it's a superficial dismissal of the character. Hadrian is literally perfect at almost* everything he does, whether it's explained or not. That's not an "on the surface" thing that's shown to be wrong with deeper analysis.

*As we can see, his one major flaw is a lack of self-awareness.

Ignimortis
2018-07-21, 09:34 AM
Well, an Edgelord is an archetype for the Harbinger class in Pathfinder Path of War subsystem. They get to teleport behind people, wear a trenchcoat which functions as armor for them, and wield a real thousand-times folded steel katana like a pro...

Oh, yeah, and the rest of the replies in this thread are also accurate, mostly. Though the term has started to dilute a little, since people nowadays call anyone who says anything borderline offensive an edgelord.

Bohandas
2018-07-21, 09:52 AM
As a follow up - what is it to be 'edgy'?

That's a good question, because they're certainly not using the term in any sense I'm familiar with. Usually it means like audacious and pushing the bounds of taste or something like that, like a Jackass routine or a horror film. It can also mean nervous.

In this case however, and nowhere else, it seems to mean "emo", which has nothing to do with either of those things


Oh, yeah, and the rest of the replies in this thread are also accurate, mostly. Though the term has started to dilute a little, since people nowadays call anyone who says anything borderline offensive an edgelord.

I imagine they assume that the "edge" part stands for "edgy". Like in the normal sense of th term

ImNotTrevor
2018-07-21, 09:58 AM
Things I've seen fictional or gaming characters get labelled "edgelord" for:



Wears dark clothes.
Has a single long coat of any kind in their closet.
Ever picked up a sword outside of a fantasy setting.
Shadow/darkness powers.
Being even a bit of a loner.
Not immediately trusting other characters in the PC "party".
Tragic past, even if it's all backstory.
Outsider origin, even if it's all backstory.
Any amount of brooding, even in response to actual horrible events in-game or in-story.



Yes. Those can be contributing factors. This has already been noticed.




And then there's "Mary Sue", the label that gets slapped on characters because they're not bland enough.

https://mythcreants.com/blog/comics/why-you-shouldnt-use-the-term-mary-sue/
http://www.ongoingworlds.com/blog/2015/01/is-the-term-mary-sue-sexist/
http://ladyloveandjustice.tumblr.com/post/13913540194/mary-sue-what-are-you-or-why-the-concept-of-sue
https://seanan-mcguire.livejournal.com/396047.html


E: and with both terms what happens is a combination of the impulse people have to find a term that serves as a quick and easy dismissal (edgelord... Mary Sue... "liberal"... "reactionary"... etc), with the set-subset error.


Mary Sue gets slapped on because a character has no flaws and is authorial wish fulfillment.

If you want to know where Edgelord and Mary Sue meet, please go read the Harry Potter fanfiction "My Immortal."

The protagonist is both.

As a side note that I hope someone quotes...

"MARY SUE" IS THE CATCH-ALL TERM FOR BOTH MALES AND FEMALES OF THIS TYPE, AND ALSO THE TERM FOR JUST THE FEMALES. A MALE ON HIS OWN IS A GARY STU.

But I've seen male characters like Superman called a Mary Sue before, so I'm pretty sure people understand what it means. Though in Superman's case the problem is he's overpowered to the point of being boring.

Mary Sues are often seen in beginning writers and youth fiction, though the line is very fuzzy between a competent character and a Mary Sue.



Edgelords brood... so all brooding characters are edgelords?
Some actual fan-fic Mary Sues have strange eye colors... so all characters with strange eye colors are Mary Sues?
All football players are athletes... so all athletes are football players?

Again, no.
But those can be indications.

You seem to be mixing up "this is a common sign of a Mary Sue" with "All characters with this trait are Mary Sues."

People have said the former here.
Nobody has said the latter.

druid91
2018-07-21, 10:13 AM
Huh. I've never associated Edgelording with Mary Sue's or Katana's at all.

In general to me an Edgelord is something you call a PLAYER not a character.

- All their characters use the Dark Side of the setting. Whether that be litteral in the case of a starwars game, or conjuring devils, demons, or undead in a D&D game. Very rarely will their character NOT have some manner of special, dark, powers.

- Everything they do must be dark, disturbing, and horror themed. If DM, they can't just have a Dark Tower of Evil. They must have some manner of bizarre flesh-maze tower, the very entering of which flenses all goodness from your soul. If the character, they won't stop at merely killing enemies, but must also torture them or condemn them to some manner of fate worse than death.

- Their characters appearance will generally be some manner of elaborate gothic costume, with horns, spikes, and all manner of ostentation aplenty.

- They get very upset when you interrupt their edge lording, or somehow disrupt the dark tragic nature of what they're doing.

mgshamster
2018-07-21, 10:52 AM
One thing this thread has done for me is showcase the varied uses of the word. Thanks everyone for your thoughts. :)

Segev
2018-07-21, 11:50 AM
Things I've seen fictional or gaming characters get labelled "edgelord" for:



Wears dark clothes.
Has a single long coat of any kind in their closet.
Ever picked up a sword outside of a fantasy setting.
Shadow/darkness powers.
Being even a bit of a loner.
Not immediately trusting other characters in the PC "party".
Tragic past, even if it's all backstory.
Outsider origin, even if it's all backstory.
Any amount of brooding, even in response to actual horrible events in-game or in-story.


Another poster added two words that I think encompass both what distinguishes "any character with any of these traits" from an "edgelord," and also explains why it's so subjective: "...done ineptly."

Yes, if you see these traits, AND you don't like the character, the character may seem an "edgelord" to you.

No, not every character that has these traits is an edgelord.

Not every character "you do'nt like" should be an edgelord to you, either; if you don't like them but they don't have those traits, they still aren't edgelords. They're some other thing you dislike.

Debate over whether Draco Dresden, orphaned son of british criminal wizards adopted by a down-on-his-luck Chicago wizard/detective, is an "edgelord" or not will happen, especially if he happens to really channel that "dark past" and be all brooding over his hard life and how his adopted father/mentor is so picked on by society. But if he's done well, some will defend him as not being such because he's got more depth and isn't done ineptly. Others still may dislike the character, either for genuine flaws or just not being to their taste, and term him an "edgelord."

About mid-way through this post (it's a thread dedicated to an original fiction; I do highly recommend it, but that's beside the point of my linking it here) is a parody of an edgelord. It's only a parody because the author is mocking it; you can actually find people playing EXACTLY THIS straight, without the author's self-awareness. https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/there-is-no-epic-loot-here-only-puns-dungeon.590739/page-224#post-48956146

So in there is a parody of an edgelord that, if not for the fact that we're seeing it through a lens of a character who doesn't buy the BS, would be a straight-up version of an edgelord.

Nifft
2018-07-21, 03:42 PM
Huh. I've never associated Edgelording with Mary Sue's or Katana's at all. Agree about Mary-Sue character not being very much like an Edgelord's character.

The dual-wielding katana trenchcoat assassin badass is a character which I've seen from an Edgelord player.


In general to me an Edgelord is something you call a PLAYER not a character. Same here. Edgelord is a term I'd use for a player who tends to favor edgy content: this might be a character, it might be campaign themes like rape or abuse, it might be about hard men making hard decisions on either side of the DM's screen, but it's always tending towards an edgy theme.

Bohandas
2018-07-21, 05:31 PM
And then there's "Mary Sue", the label that gets slapped on characters because they're not bland enough.

https://mythcreants.com/blog/comics/why-you-shouldnt-use-the-term-mary-sue/
http://www.ongoingworlds.com/blog/2015/01/is-the-term-mary-sue-sexist/
http://ladyloveandjustice.tumblr.com/post/13913540194/mary-sue-what-are-you-or-why-the-concept-of-sue
https://seanan-mcguire.livejournal.com/396047.html


That second one is based on an incorrect premise. A "Mary Sue" character does not have to be female. Anakin Skywalker in The Phantom Menace was a mary sue


Agree about Mary-Sue character not being very much like an Edgelord's character.


And he of course goes on to become episode 3 anakin skywalker and eventually darth vader

The Jack
2018-07-21, 07:26 PM
I dunno, I think there's a lot of areas that're "edgy" but not "edgelord", Maybe because I've been playing too much VTM/WTA*.




A character that does awful things isn't automatically an edgelord.
A cynical disposition isn't automatically edgelord
Dark fashion sense doesn't make you an edgelord.

Most of it comes down to mindlessly aping tropes/being bad at acting/not being good with people. A compelling villain can be more fun for the players at the table than a ****ty hero. I've played characters that do horrendous things, but they've never thought I'm arbitrarily trying to be cool; I've made a grounded person with their own ideals and way of thinking, with their own flaws.
My friend was recently complaining about being in a werewolf game with an edgy "Shadow Lord" who wore a venom hoody (An obviously fundamental misunderstanding of the tribe). Given he'd witnessed a sizable chunk of my in-character atrocities, he was obviously talking about something else; a lack of tact.

*I feel Trenchcoats/katanas is a bad way to play the games, but "personal horror" is a total wank. It's sandbox in dark satire; the only way to fly is to embrace that

MrStabby
2018-07-22, 04:46 PM
I have been thinking about this over the past couple of days and I am thinking that there are a LOT of pretty beloved fictional characters that would fall into this category.

A few that spring to mind (in addition to Dr Who):

Hamlet: back story of mother killed by uncle, consorts with spirits, feigns madness and treats girlfriend like crap. Royalty and sharp enough with a sword

Raven: from Graham Greene's Gun for Sale, had suicidal mother, badass murderer but hunting person who betrayed him

Magneto: X-men. Family betrayed then killed by Nazis, "missunderstood" and daughter killed by a mob, left by girlfriend... and has awesome power but sympathy for his suffering.

Macbeth: Driven by dark prophecy and ambition, war hero but angsting of his betrayal and the betrayal of others

Harry Potter: Murdered family, imprisoned and abused but comes with a ridiculous amount of plot armour

Beatrix Kiddo: from Kill Bill. Trained assassin and total badass with murdered family and betrayed by mentor and coleagues

Oedepus Rex: Protagonist has a dark past through killing own father but some sympathy as his father was killed. Current plot involves this personal mystery. Personal prophecy building the special snowflake element.



Somewhat surprised that there is only one woman on the list - is this because I tend to read books/watch films with more male protagonists or is being an Edgelord a more male pursuit?

Hooligan
2018-07-22, 04:54 PM
Somewhat surprised that there is only one woman on the list - is this because I tend to read books/watch films with more male protagonists or is being an Edgelord a more male pursuit?

Just like Mary Sue does not connote the subject's sex, neither does Edgelord (Edgelady?). Now just based on experience, edgelords and the players of edgelord characters seem to be predominantly male. I'm sure there are plenty of edgeladies out there walking around with dark colored outfits and chips on their shoulders.

Edgelords work well in fiction, less so in RPGs where surly, unsociable players/characters are usually a pain in the ass to play alongside.

MrStabby
2018-07-22, 04:59 PM
Just like Mary Sue has no actual connotation of the subject's sex, neither does Edgelord (Edgelady?). Now just based on experience, edgelords and the players of edgelord characters seem to be predominantly male.

Edgelords work well in fiction, less so in RPGs where surly, unsociable players/characters are usually a pain in the ass to play alongside.

I think it would be interesting to find edgelords in literature that are not protagonists or villains but are supporting characters, to look for insight into how they can react to circumstances without always being the centre of attention.

On the other hand you could have fun with a party of Edgelords: "you all meet in an Orphanage/Jail/Funeral"

Nifft
2018-07-22, 05:39 PM
In fiction, you get characters who aren't balanced and didn't choose their own backstories. Character can be edgy, but they're usually not to blame for elements like dead parents. When a character spends too many words ruminating on his or her suffering, that's more an instance of Wangst (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Wangst) than being an Edgelord.

In contrast, players are generally to blame for the backstories they write about their own characters. To me, an Edgelord is a player who consistently chooses edgy elements, and wants to portray those edgy elements as better (more powerful, more morally justified, etc.) than the non-edgy / normal alternatives.


It's my opinion that Edgelord is a term that can be applied to players & authors, not characters.

Max_Killjoy
2018-07-22, 06:33 PM
Just like Mary Sue does not connote the subject's sex, neither does Edgelord (Edgelady?). Now just based on experience, edgelords and the players of edgelord characters seem to be predominantly male. I'm sure there are plenty of edgeladies out there walking around with dark colored outfits and chips on their shoulders.

Edgelords work well in fiction, less so in RPGs where surly, unsociable players/characters are usually a pain in the ass to play alongside.

Mary Sue absolutely does connote the subject's sex/gender.

How many times does someone need to link to the origin, history, and implications of the term?

Bohandas
2018-07-22, 06:38 PM
No it doesn't. How many times do I have to link to the definition of genetic fallacy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy

mgshamster
2018-07-22, 06:47 PM
In fiction, you get characters who aren't balanced and didn't choose their own backstories. Character can be edgy, but they're usually not to blame for elements like dead parents. When a character spends too many words ruminating on his or her suffering, that's more an instance of Wangst (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Wangst) than being an Edgelord.

Now that really rings true to me.

Between this and the Jackass reference (which really helped highlight what edgy is for me, as I've seen a ton of Jackass), I think k I've got it down now.

Thanks!

Max_Killjoy
2018-07-22, 07:38 PM
No it doesn't. How many times do I have to link to the definition of genetic fallacy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy

So I guess that's going to be the new thing for people to hide behind when they misuse terminology and get called on it.

OK.

https://fanlore.org/wiki/Mary_Sue


Reminds me a bit of the people who will 'correct' others by saying haughtily "It's not soccer, it's football" -- they THINK they're being knowledgeable because they've heard "soccer" belittled as an Americanism... when the origin of "soccer" is in British (Oxford, specifically) slang, from "association football", the full name for that sport, distinguishing it from "rugby football", and later "American football" (or "gridiron football"), "Australian football", etc.


And beyond the origin, there's also the fact that there's a MUCH LOWER bar for female characters to be called "Mary Sues" than there is for male characters.

From the earlier-linked articles:



"The definitions of Mary Sue are often contradictory, as are the definitions of her male counterpart, Gary Stu. That being said, I have seen many, many female protagonists accused of Mary Sue-ism, but have very rarely seen the opposite accusation leveled at male protagonists, even when the weight of the definition seems to point much more firmly at the males in the situation. Harry Potter is the son of two incredibly beloved, talented, respected wizards; he's never been exposed to the wizard world before the start of the series, yet is instantly one of the most skilled Seekers the Quiddich Team has ever seen; all his flaws turn out to be advantages; everyone loves him, or is instantly branded a villain for ever and ever and ever. Hermione Granger has worked hard for everything she has. She's the smartest girl in Gryffindor, but that's about it; she isn't naturally incredibly magically talented, or handed all her advantages for nothing. Yet I see her accused of Mary Sue-ism way more often than I see him accused of Gary Stu-ism.

Half the time, "Mary Sue" seems to mean "female character." And that doesn't work for me, for a lot of reasons, including "I write female characters who aren't Mary Sues," and also, "if all women are Mary Sues, why does my hair get frizzy when it rains?" (I would totally be willing to be a Mary Sue if it meant my hair was always perfect and I could go to sleep wearing eyeliner without waking up the next morning looking like a raccoon.) Male characters get to be competent or obnoxious, skilled or clumsy, intelligent or ignorant, without being accused of being Mary Sues. Shouldn't female characters have the same luxury?

...

"I love Kelley Armstrong's Women of the Otherworld books. In the very first volume, Bitten, we meet Elena, the world's only female werewolf, and Jeremy, the current leader of the North American Pack. Both Elena and Jeremy are physically stronger than humans, with super-fast healing, severely slowed aging, and supernaturally good looks. Both of them turn into giant wolves who can eat your face. Elena, despite being the only female werewolf, is a pretty standard werewolf. Jeremy is the only non-bruiser Pack leader ever; is psychic; is rich and artistically talented and smart and his mother wasn't a werewolf at all, but a super-secret special non-werewolf supernatural and also the hottest necromancer ever loves him and and and...

Now, I think both these characters are well-written, well-rounded, and equally plausible within the setting, even if Jeremy is a bit more over-the-top than Elena is. But I've only heard the term "Mary Sue" applied to one of them. And it wasn't Jeremy. His spectacular special snowflake awesomeness is viewed as only right and fair, while her only unusual attribute—"female werewolf"—makes her, not the protagonist, but the obnoxious self-insert parasite who won't go away."


And:




"So, there’s this girl. She’s tragically orphaned and richer than anyone on the planet. Every guy she meets falls in love with her, but in between torrid romances she rejects them all because she dedicated to what is Pure and Good. She has genius level intellect, Olympic-athelete level athletic ability and incredible good looks. She is consumed by terrible angst, but this only makes guys want her more. She has no superhuman abilities, yet she is more competent than her superhuman friends and defeats superhumans with ease. She has unshakably loyal friends and allies, despite the fact she treats them pretty badly. They fear and respect her, and defer to her orders. Everyone is obsessed with her, even her enemies are attracted to her. She can plan ahead for anything and she’s generally right with any conclusion she makes. People who defy her are inevitably wrong.

God, what a Mary Sue.

I just described Batman."

Bohandas
2018-07-22, 08:06 PM
Nobody says "Gary Stu" or "Gary Stu-ism" except for you, the author of that article and a handful of people in old posts and articles from like a decade to a decade and a half ago

edit:
and let me link you to this list (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:English_terms_with_obsolete_senses) as well:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:English_terms_with_obsolete_senses

Mr Beer
2018-07-22, 08:08 PM
Batman is a huge Mary Sue though, not least because of copious amounts of plot armour that allows him to conveniently defeat supers that should be able to just tear him limb from limb.

Anyway...just because some people might misuse a term, doesn't mean that the term is useless or redundant because of it. So people misuse 'literally' quite often ('Wow, he is literally on fire today!') but the word still retains its meaning.

The Jack
2018-07-22, 08:11 PM
Nonsense

we might as well talk about how African Americans shouldn't vote democrat, because historically they were the more oppressive party and stood for the superiority of the white man.
Maybe if we want to talk about preserving language we should consider changing english to welsh, eradicating the americans, or banning homosexuals from using the term gay to describe themselves as anything other than happy (or whatever the term originally meant. It changed definitions quite the few times)

Mary sue, Gary stue, zog-rak thru (of the hermaphroditic race of sentient slugs from planet 12); it doesn't matter. Don't use the vague vestige of sexism to go off on a rant. Stay on topic. It's all too edgy for me.


Also that soccer example is terrible. You said it originated as a slang word, why would that be justification?

Cluedrew
2018-07-22, 08:26 PM
Anyway...just because some people might misuse a term, doesn't mean that the term is useless or redundant because of it. So people misuse 'literally' quite often ('Wow, he is literally on fire today!') but the word still retains its meaning.... I will fight and die (figuratively) on this hill. But for Mary Sue, I have never heard anyone except Max_Killjoy* use the narrower version of the word. So the broader version seems more accurate to me. Mind you I don't think I have ever actually used the term to describe a character myself, but usually understand when others do.

Max_Killjoy
2018-07-22, 08:51 PM
we might as well talk about how African Americans shouldn't vote democrat, because historically they were the more oppressive party and stood for the superiority of the white man.
Maybe if we want to talk about preserving language we should consider changing english to welsh, eradicating the americans, or banning homosexuals from using the term gay to describe themselves as anything other than happy (or whatever the term originally meant. It changed definitions quite the few times)

Mary sue, Gary stue, zog-rak thru (of the hermaphroditic race of sentient slugs from planet 12); it doesn't matter. Don't use the vague vestige of sexism to go off on a rant. Stay on topic. It's all too edgy for me.


Also that soccer example is terrible. You said it originated as a slang word, why would that be justification?

In both cases, the people doing most of the "correcting" ("Mary Sue isn't a sexist or gender-specific" / "it's not soccer, it's football") don't know the etymology of the word or term in question.

The Jack
2018-07-22, 09:00 PM
In both cases, the people doing most of the "correcting" ("Mary Sue isn't a sexist or gender-specific" / "it's not soccer, it's football") don't know the etymology of the word or term in question.

That's nice and all, but do you not see how the point you've just made defeats your own argument?

Cluedrew
2018-07-22, 09:04 PM
To The Jack: I don't think he would have made the argument if he did. You might want to explain it. (I don't see how it supports or defeats his main point.)

2D8HP
2018-07-22, 09:07 PM
Batman



Batman


Batman often is an "Edgelord", and most definitely is in Frank Miller's Dark Knight, why argue otherwise?


Nobody says "Gary Stu" or "Gary Stu-ism" except for you, the author of that article and a handful of people in old posts and articles from like a decade to a decade and a half ago


*ahem*

I've used "Gary Stu" this decade:


....as with the other books in the series, the lead protaganist may be a "Mary Sue", but I find her exploits much more fun to read about than the infinity of "Gary Stu's" in fiction....


I've also used "Marty Stu":


....it is full of Marty/Mary Sue's...


BTW James Bond most definitely is a "Gary Stu'/"Marty Stewart" and sometimes is an "Edgelord" as well.

Elric is the crème de la crème of "Edgelords" in the fiction that I've enjoyed.

BBQ Pork
2018-07-22, 09:07 PM
As a follow up - what is it to be 'edgy'?

In my day, it meant that a Cleric could not wield you.

2D8HP
2018-07-22, 09:14 PM
In my day, it meant that a Cleric could not wield you.


http://media.giphy.com/media/x88e1awUi05by/giphy.gif

Max_Killjoy
2018-07-22, 10:51 PM
That's nice and all, but do you not see how the point you've just made defeats your own argument?

In both cases people who don't understand the origin or meaning of the term are trying to "correct" others about the usage.

JNAProductions
2018-07-22, 10:57 PM
In both cases people who don't understand the origin or meaning of the term are trying to "correct" others about the usage.

Origin is not where it is now, though, is it?

The original Mary Sue might've been female, but that doesn't mean the phrase applies only to women nowadays.

ImNotTrevor
2018-07-22, 11:01 PM
As usual, the old histrionics of a term are being dragged up as if usage never shifts, ever.

Mary Sue is both the term for females with the trait specifically, AND for the phenomenon as a whole.

Using Gary Stu to talk about an individual male is acceptable, but not necessary for communicating the right idea.

That is the current usage standard of the term. People are going into the sexism angle probably because of outrage that Rey in the new Star Wars films is seen as a Mary Sue. (I more or less agree with the assessment, but I think it comes down to them trying to do too much too quickly with the new films leaving no time to show the process of her progress, only the results. Luke got a training montage. Rey got a 90 second peptalk. But that's far from the core problem with the newer movies. Topic for another forum.) Since that has been cropping up, the warriors are up to the usual tactics of declaring the criticism itself to be sexist and invalid, and therefore a forbidden criticism to level.

Which is annoying.

Also, I'd say that the line between Mary Sue and Competent character is the same as the line drawn for suspension of disbelief. It will shift for some people, obviously, but most Mary Sues are found in amateur fiction (the place I most commonly see it mentioned) because they're bad attempts at portraying competence.

Harry Potter at least shows skill growth and makes mistakes on a regular basis, so we generally don't scoff in disbelief when he does things.

If Steve Rogers pulls a wand out of his butt and casts Doom Of All Evil because he just so happened to be a wizard the whole time, that's a Mary Sue. Why? Because we lose our suspension of disbelief.


Same with Edgelords.

When they are SO cartoonishly morose and dark that we just can't believe they're a real person anymore, that's an Edgelord.

Frank Castle is edgy and dark, but we can believe that a former soldier whose family was killed by the mob would start shooting criminals. Makes sense.

When Raven McDarksoul lost his mom in a tragic accident and so was picked up by magic ninjas and trained in the art of The Weeping Blade and now runs around on rooftops wearing all black and feeding his blade the souls of sinners so as not to be overwhelmed by its demonic energy (except that when this happens there is literally no downside except he's extra angry) and also his dad was an Angel and....

Disbelief no longer suspended.


I think that's the key, here.

Once they're so competent and likeable that we struggle to suspend our disbelief, Mary Sue.

When they're so dark, tragic, and full of inner conflict that we just can't believe it anymore, Edgelord.

My 2cp, anyways.

Composer99
2018-07-22, 11:06 PM
What sprang to mind for me, thinking about "edgelords", is Ben Stiller's character Roy (aka "Mr. Furious") trying to come up with a "dark" persona (complete with a name (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0132347/quotes?item=qt1667184) that matches the formulaic ones trotted out by previous posters in this thread) and background to match in a vain effort to impress the waitress he was crushing on.

I think the key takeaways are that for a character to be an edgelord:
(1) the character is ineptly constructed and/or portrayed
(2) the author or player earnestly lacks awareness of point (1)
(3) one or more (but at least three for best results) of the following trope/archetype "keywords" apply to the character's backstory or personality - dark, tragic, edgy, antihero, loner
(4) the character isn't one of the story's antagonists/villains

Obviously there will be some subjectivity, and hence room for disagreement, over points (1) and possibly (3). That said, I think it can safely be said that:
- The protagonist of the novel through which mgshamster is suffering is an edgelord
- Batman can be an edgelord, depending upon the quality of his writing team
- It takes a fair bit of tapdancing to keep, say, Deadpool, from being an edgelord. In his favour is that he, and those writing for him, are unlikely to meet the requirement for point (2)
- Anakin Skywalker in Revenge of the Sith is an edgelord, up until he becomes one of the antagonists
- Kylo Ren would be an edgelord if he weren't one of the antagonists
- An earnestly-built version of teenage Haley Starshine (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0093.html) would probably end up being an edgelord

Kitten Champion
2018-07-22, 11:50 PM
Origin is not where it is now, though, is it?

The original Mary Sue might've been female, but that doesn't mean the phrase applies only to women nowadays.

I've honestly never heard or read anyone say "Wesley Crusher can't be a Mary Sue, he's a boy".

It's like the term prima donna. Obviously it has its original context, then it developed a connotation for narcissism and petulance, which over time came to be applied to any person who fulfills that particular description and not just female leads in opera companies.

Granted, I do see a fair bit of double-standards where hyper-competent or power fantasy female characters are grievous Mary Sues while similarly designed male characters are given a pass or even adulated. As the former is a transparent and shameless attempt by a creator to push this clearly unconvincing character down your throat, while the latter is business as usual I guess.

Tanarii
2018-07-22, 11:59 PM
Take Holden Caulfield from Catcher in the Rye. Give him super powers. That's an Edgelord.

Bohandas
2018-07-23, 12:48 AM
In both cases people who don't understand the origin or meaning of the term are trying to "correct" others about the usage.

By that logic you should also be correcting people who use "gay" to mean "homosexual" rather than "jolly"

Eldan
2018-07-23, 02:16 AM
I think it would be interesting to find edgelords in literature that are not protagonists or villains but are supporting characters, to look for insight into how they can react to circumstances without always being the centre of attention.

On the other hand you could have fun with a party of Edgelords: "you all meet in an Orphanage/Jail/Funeral"

Darkstar. He is of the night.

The Jack
2018-07-23, 07:13 AM
I'd never use the term "gary stu" without a tongue in cheek. It's the equivalent of trying to avoid looking at someone unusual in public because you don't want to stare. You're not any better, even if you mean better.



Kitten Champion
Granted, I do see a fair bit of double-standards where hyper-competent or power fantasy female characters are grievous Mary Sues while similarly designed male characters are given a pass or even adulated. As the former is a transparent and shameless attempt by a creator to push this clearly unconvincing character down your throat, while the latter is business as usual I guess.

I see it thus:
Basically every aspect of human existence allows it to be easier for men to fill the "badass" role; It's biologically easier for a man to gain muscle, socially we encourage men to do more dangerous tasks because they're worth less in reproduction and are better to risk, and men typically earn more because they not only tend to work dangerous jobs, but women take less hours/time demanding rolls due to family.

Typically, of course: my parents were a huge exception to almost all of this, but that's a modern thing.

Historically, common people were often less sexist than we make them out to be, or at least not oppressively so. It doesn't help how some people really make sexism very extreme in their settings, or that they make characters that're culture-shocked because they've somehow developed modern sensibilities in the victorian/rome/qin dynasty/crusade analogue setting.

But the main problem is that it's more reasonable for male character to have learnt hyper-badassery than a woman, and some writers aren't happy to have a woman just better than most men, which would be badass in it's own right, they're motivated to have hyper-badassery for the woman in a setting which shouldn't develop it to the extent, Either for ideological reasons or a strong case of wanting to project ideal selves.

Brienne of tarth is a cool character (even though I find her chapters the absolute worst). She can maul the men in combat; she's easily one of the best warriors in westeros, and yet she can do this because she's huge and blokish, and regularly struggles with herself on that because she isn't really accepted as either sex. (one could argue she's edgy) If you cut the part where she's huge, and made her a pretty and dainty girl, the character would be un-believable even if she had something else to angst about (IE, being a pretty woman in armour and getting wolf whistles in tourneys...)


Oddly, few ever criticise anime-girls as mary sues, but we'll make the gripe about male MC's. Guess it's the medium.

2D8HP
2018-07-23, 07:40 AM
Oddly the http://fanlore.org/w/images/8/86/Men2marysue.jpg doesn't read much like a "Mary Sue', and was clearly a parody of fan-fiction.

Segev
2018-07-23, 10:54 AM
Oh, for crying out--

Max, you should know better. Just as "Sorcerer" can mean male or female (especially when speaking generically), but "Sorceress" is always "a female sorcerer," "Mary Sue" can mean female or male (especially when speaking generically), but "Gary Stu" (or "Marty Stu," which I've also seen) is specifically denoting "a male Mary Sue."

Yes, the assumption, absent other information, is that a "Mary Sue" is a female character, just as the assumption until otherwise demonstrated is that a "sorcerer" is a male character. That doesn't mean there's some inherent misogyny or some sort of specific need for a character to be female to discuss his or her "Mary Sueness."

Edgelords tend to be male characters, because "brooding loner" and the other common traits are often associated with male examples of characters. As said before, the qualities that mark "an Edgelord" are not sufficient to make a given character who possesses them one on their own, without the key ingredient: the character being done poorly.

Magneto and Wolverine can both be edgelords, if they're poorly written. I would dare to say that there are comics (and scads of fanfics) where both qualify. But in general, they aren't; they're usually pretty well-written, especially in official works.

There's a reason a lot of Mary Sue parodies focus on how a character is described. The same features on the same character, portrayed and handled and emphasized differently, can make all the difference. The same is true of Edgelords vs. decent-to-good characters with traits that mark a particular bad character as an edgelord.

It's really about how they're portrayed, combined with those other traits.

But holy high heck, man, just accept that "Mary Sue" is both gender-specific and generic. Gary Stus are Mary Sues; not all Mary Sues are Gary Stus. (Gary Stus are male Mary Sues.)

John Campbell
2018-07-23, 01:00 PM
The biggest Mary Sue I've seen in actual published literature is male: Richard Rand/Rahl of the atrocious Sword of Truth series.

There are a lot of unique special snowflake traits that are common to a lot of not-really-all-that-unique snowflakes that get held up as signs of Mary Sue-ism, but they're just symptoms and warning signs, not the sine qua non of the thing. The core trait that I feel defines it, Richard has in spades: He literally cannot ever be (in the author's opinion) in the wrong.


Similarly, the black longcoats and katanas and tragedy-go-round backstories are just symptoms and warning flags. A lot of edgelords have them in common, but they're not the thing that actually makes the character an edgelord. What actually makes an edgelord is that he's there to push the limits of what the group considers acceptable. Not far enough to make the group call him on it, but just enough to make them uncomfortable... dancing just over the edge of acceptable behaviour. Because he thinks that being a jerk makes him cool.

(And yes, it's usually a "him".)

2D8HP
2018-07-23, 01:09 PM
Well, I see the orcerersay ingkay is ackbay in the 5e Sub-Forum, an Edgelord if there ever was one.

Max_Killjoy
2018-07-23, 01:16 PM
The biggest Mary Sue I've seen in actual published literature is male: Richard Rand/Rahl of the atrocious Sword of Truth series.

There are a lot of unique special snowflake traits that are common to a lot of not-really-all-that-unique snowflakes that get held up as signs of Mary Sue-ism, but they're just symptoms and warning signs, not the sine qua non of the thing. The core trait that I feel defines it, Richard has in spades: He literally cannot ever be (in the author's opinion) in the wrong.


Similarly, the black longcoats and katanas and tragedy-go-round backstories are just symptoms and warning flags. A lot of edgelords have them in common, but they're not the thing that actually makes the character an edgelord. What actually makes an edgelord is that he's there to push the limits of what the group considers acceptable. Not far enough to make the group call him on it, but just enough to make them uncomfortable... dancing just over the edge of acceptable behaviour. Because he thinks that being a jerk makes him cool.

(And yes, it's usually a "him".)

Both far more reasonable concepts than the stupid checklists of "your character is a ______ if they have one or more of these attributes" that pretty much make up the modern un-definitions commonly used for both terms.

Segev
2018-07-23, 01:33 PM
Both far more reasonable concepts than the stupid checklists of "your character is a ______ if they have one or more of these attributes" that pretty much make up the modern un-definitions commonly used for both terms.

In the defense of most of those tests, they're a) for fun and b) usually have a disclaimer that it's not a guaranteed test. They're called "warning signs" for a reason.

As a general rule, the less hard you have to look at a character to realize all the "warning signs" are there, the more likely it is to be a Mary Sue or an Edgelord or whatever you're testing for. This is because part of the stereotypically bad writing surrounding these characters is a loving, purple prose-laden, overly detailed focus on all of these traits as fast as the author can squeeze them into the paragraphs. Florid visual descriptions, lengthy "tell, never show" recitations of their backstory in stultifyingly dull detail, and catalog listings of their powers that would make resumes to join the Avengers seem uninformative front-load everything.

In essence, Harry Potter could be a Gary Stu if you just wrote about what made him "cool" all at once in a checklist, added in a few references to his "soulful" eyes and his "dashing" scar as proof of just how deep a character he is, and then left it at that.

The longer it takes to examine the character's presentation to discern all these warning signs, the more likely it is that there's an actual interesting character there, and you're just learning these genuinely interesting things about him as it goes along. That's not a guarantee, obviously, but it's yet another imperfect measuring stick one can apply.

If the first thing you get about the character is sesquipedalian physical descriptions meant to evoke "depth" without actually giving any characterization to back it up, and then powers and the one personality trait you'll see for the rest of the work, it's usually easy to pick out those traits and call the test accurate.

One thing I actually enjoy doing is taking bad concepts and trying to restructure them into good ones.

Max_Killjoy
2018-07-23, 01:48 PM
In essence, Harry Potter could be a Gary Stu if you just wrote about what made him "cool" all at once in a checklist, added in a few references to his "soulful" eyes and his "dashing" scar as proof of just how deep a character he is, and then left it at that.


As an aside, Hermione is called a "Mary Sue" far more often than Harry is.

I'll leave why that is as an exercise in contemplation.

CantigThimble
2018-07-23, 02:14 PM
As an aside, Hermione is called a "Mary Sue" far more often than Harry is.

I'll leave why that is as an exercise in contemplation.

In the books Harry is portrayed as desperately having to struggle with every problem he encounters and often messes up in one way or another. Hermione is often only brought into the story when she can spontaneously solve a problem with knowledge she already possessed without any of the struggles that may have been necessary to attain it made apparent to the reader.

And just FYI, the whole "Contemplate it long enough and you'll realize that I was right all along" attitude is not particularly endearing.

Amaril
2018-07-23, 02:26 PM
While I wouldn't call either Harry or Hermione a Mary Sue by any stretch, it also seems relevant that while Harry's talents range from situationally useful to pretty much useless, the thing Hermione is especially good at (book-learning and academics) directly translates to greater magical power that can be used to solve pretty much any problem. True, she has to work her ass off for that kind of power, and I'd never claim she doesn't deserve it or that it makes her a bad character, but...well, it would be one thing if we could compare her to another character who was just naturally gifted at magic to that extent without having to work for it, but that doesn't really happen. We never really get any indication that magical ability can be gotten without having to work hard and study, and while we see most of the characters grow through that process, Hermione is always several steps ahead, having mastered most skills off-screen before the others even become aware of them (with a few exceptions--the Patronus Charm immediately comes to mind, but again, we see Harry suffer greatly to learn that).

However, since that's probably just an affect of the story not being told from her perspective, I have no problem taking it as read that she's put in the work and earned the skills she has, so it doesn't bother me.

CantigThimble
2018-07-23, 02:29 PM
While I wouldn't call either Harry or Hermione a Mary Sue by any stretch, it also seems relevant that while Harry's talents range from situationally useful to pretty much useless, the thing Hermione is especially good at (book-learning and academics) directly translates to greater magical power that can be used to solve pretty much any problem. True, she has to work her ass off for that kind of power, and I'd never claim she doesn't deserve it or that it makes her a bad character, but...well, it would be one thing if we could compare her to another character who was just naturally gifted at magic to that extent without having to work for it, but that doesn't really happen. We never really get any indication that magical ability can be gotten without having to work hard and study, and while we see most of the characters grow through that process, Hermione is always several steps ahead, having mastered most skills off-screen before the others even become aware of them (with a few exceptions--the Patronus Charm immediately comes to mind, but again, we see Harry suffer greatly to learn that).

However, since that's probably just an affect of the story not being told from her perspective, I have no problem taking it as read that she's put in the work and earned the skills she has, so it doesn't bother me.

Yeah, I don't consider her a mary sue personally, but I can understand the reasons why she would be called such.

Max_Killjoy
2018-07-23, 03:12 PM
In the books Harry is portrayed as desperately having to struggle with every problem he encounters and often messes up in one way or another. Hermione is often only brought into the story when she can spontaneously solve a problem with knowledge she already possessed without any of the struggles that may have been necessary to attain it made apparent to the reader.


Hermione is depicted studying her butt off many times in the books, etc, and in one book the effort she puts in is a major plot point (the time travel thingy)... but because the books aren't from her POV, but from Harry's, we also get more immediate exposure to his struggles. At the same, we also see Harry concentrate on his problems, and not quite understand some of the upsides he has, such as being showered with opportunity, the gifts from relatives and their friends both living and dead, etc. It's only because life hammers on Harry that he doesn't seem a total butt.




And just FYI, the whole "Contemplate it long enough and you'll realize that I was right all along" attitude is not particularly endearing.


Good thing I don't care about being endearing.

Segev
2018-07-23, 04:03 PM
As an aside, Hermione is called a "Mary Sue" far more often than Harry is.

I'll leave why that is as an exercise in contemplation.


Hermione is depicted studying her butt off many times in the books, etc, and in one book the effort she puts in is a major plot point (the time travel thingy)... but because the books aren't from her POV, but from Harry's, we also get more immediate exposure to his struggles. At the same, we also see Harry concentrate on his problems, and not quite understand some of the upsides he has, such as being showered with opportunity, the gifts from relatives and their friends both living and dead, etc. It's only because life hammers on Harry that he doesn't seem a total butt. It's funny how fans and fanon often ignore things that justify and expand on character traits and focus on the moment.

Hermione is a Mary Sue the same way Ron is a Death Eater and Draco looks great in leather pants.


Good thing I don't care about being endearing.Being smug isn't particularly persuasive, either, and if your goal is not to persuade, it seems like a waste of text to write out an argument or point.

Come on, Max. You're better than this.

Rerem115
2018-07-23, 04:51 PM
Come on, Max. You're better than this.

Indeed; saying that you meant to be a jerk doesn't make you any less of a jerk.

Max_Killjoy
2018-07-23, 05:02 PM
Indeed; saying that you meant to be a jerk doesn't make you any less of a jerk.

Honestly, if I'm saying anything along those lines at this point it's not that I meant to be a jerk, it's that I no longer care if I come across as a jerk.

Bohandas
2018-07-23, 05:55 PM
The thing about Harry Potter is, a lot of the time Harry comes off basically as accidentally-Gilderoy-Lockheart. In particular his most famous feat (surviving/reflecting the death curse) was due to a protection spell that someone else cast

MrStabby
2018-07-23, 08:11 PM
Honestly, if I'm saying anything along those lines at this point it's not that I meant to be a jerk, it's that I no longer care if I come across as a jerk.

Isn't willing and conscious disregard for the perspective of other people pretty much step 1 if you are trying to be a jerk?


Anyway, I was thinking over the Brienne of Tarth example on the previous page - I think an excellent and interesting addition to an ensemble cast and would be a character that is a good fit for a game. Indeed the characterisation is generally excellent in both the book and the TV series.

The one character that I do hate is Daenerys Targaryen. To me this is what I think of as a Mary Sue. Always has a plan or a special ability or an earned friendship to save her. Whilst other "good" characters make mistakes they are punished for them - usually through loss of status or family. I feel that there is no tension or complexity to this character because there is no weakness of character there that will actually matter.

Andor13
2018-07-23, 11:07 PM
but...well, it would be one thing if we could compare her to another character who was just naturally gifted at magic to that extent without having to work for it, but that doesn't really happen. We never really get any indication that magical ability can be gotten without having to work hard and study, and while we see most of the characters grow through that process, Hermione is always several steps ahead, having mastered most skills off-screen before the others even become aware of them (with a few exceptions--the Patronus Charm immediately comes to mind, but again, we see Harry suffer greatly to learn that).

There are several, aren't there? Most obviously Ginny Weasley who is naturally magically powerful, and grows up in a wizarding family so it all comes naturally to her. Tonks gets special powers no one else has, just because. Gilderoy Lockheart has abnormally powerful memory modification abilities in spite of being otherwise dreadful at magic. Inversely we have squibs who can study all they want, but will never have magic worth sneezing at. The potterverse doesn't even pretend to be fair in it's power distribution, it's one of it's points of believability.

The Jack
2018-07-24, 07:44 AM
The one character that I do hate is Daenerys Targaryen. To me this is what I think of as a Mary Sue. Always has a plan or a special ability or an earned friendship to save her. Whilst other "good" characters make mistakes they are punished for them - usually through loss of status or family. I feel that there is no tension or complexity to this character because there is no weakness of character there that will actually matter.

In the book she's a young teen, she's sane but struggling from inexperience and lack of education, but she's got advisers and protectors; Jorah, barristan, strong bewlas (who's criminally missing from the show) her bloodriders... a bunch of others that escape me. Reading a daenery's chapter is kind of banal, because she's evidently not a perfect character, but everyone around her is rather interesting.
Also she misses out on a few -what the **** are you doing- moments that are in the show, being sane and all. Quarth was an almost entirely different story.

In the show she's 18 and comes across as insane, partly because she's supposed to be 14, partly because the writers are really bad, or hate the targs, or the actress, or something. Whatever it is, it's just not faithful to the books, even if I don't particularly like her in the books.

Tyrion's a mary sue in the show. in the books He's hideous and conflicted. In the show, well, Peter Dinklage is the most outrageously handsome dwarf I've ever seen, the hate his character gets makes no sense.