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Bicorn
2018-07-18, 02:02 PM
I have been reading a many of the works of Michael Moorcock specially The Elric Saga and Corum series, where the Lords of Chaos and the Lords of Law pick Champions to fight for them.

Neither Order nor Chaos are portrayed as very nice. It's pointed out in the books: Chaos means that every possibility is allowed (symbolized by the eight-arrow symbol), but at the end, you'll just move back and forth and get to nowhere.

Order (symbolized by a straight arrow) means that you have direction, but exclude some possibilities — in the worst case, all of them.

A world gone too far in Chaos is one where shape cannot be maintained and horrible things will try to eat you.

A world gone too far in law will eventually become a featureless white plane. And although Order has a superficial appearance of being Good, and Chaos of being Evil; the true Good is, in fact, the Balance, with Evil being the extremes of either Order or Chaos.

I want to use some of these concepts on my setting but I can't really get the right ideas.

What would a religion dedicated to chaos preach? How would it stay organized?

What would a religion of order and balance preach?

Any ideas would be welcomed.

JoeJ
2018-07-18, 02:16 PM
If you haven't already, you should watch Babylon 5 for some inspiration.

Zurvan
2018-07-18, 04:15 PM
To me Freedom (Chaos) is all about empowering the individual,working towards to culture, happiness, tourism and diplomacy, and also gives some defensive bonuses to the military.

An Order religion works by empowering the state, and is good for sprawling (but not necessarily aggressive) empires with lots of industrial buildings and focus on food, production and population.

Deepbluediver
2018-07-18, 04:30 PM
L.E. Modesitt also wrote a whole bunch of novels centered around order/chaos conflicts, if you want to check those out as well.

Nifft
2018-07-18, 04:34 PM
"Say, Mr. Priest, your religion of (Law|Chaos) seems to venerate a life-destroying horror. Why just the other day I read about (Law|Chaos) holy warriors behaving no better than terrorists."

"Oh those are the extremists / fundamentalists. They're a bit too idealistic. Their hearts are in the right place, but their actions are not what we condone. We're about the realistic, moderate, and humanitarian face of (Law|Chaos), which means all the nice things that you like about (community|individualism)."

"Okay, Mr. Priest. That makes sense. I'll join and give you a donation."

Mr. Priest stealthily slips the donation over to the Holy Warriors of (Law|Chaos) account.

Florian
2018-07-18, 04:53 PM
Regular existence happens at the halfway point between the two extremes. We are individuals actin in a society, after all.

Cults see and promote a version of society that is geared towards promoting one half over the other, either society or the individual.

Dalinale
2018-07-18, 05:15 PM
Another take; accepting chaos at the 'ground level' is really just accepting/believing that the world follows what amount to a complex series of arbitrary factors, some of which change if someone looks at them too long. Everything from how the weather is going to look like to the price of bread in the markets to if one lives or dies to various cosmic principles are all mostly out of the realm of really understanding; natural existence is not some kind of harmonious things, but the end result of dozens of pressures pressing against one another to where systems form. This isn't really something that is appealing to the average person, but sorcerers and others who perceive themselves to be intelligent might humor such beliefs.

Shamash
2018-07-18, 05:35 PM
Chaos cleric would probrably teach people that the universe is random and we have no control over it so we should just embrace the chaos as it is.

There would be a lot of focus on freedom and free will, they would use the random dogma to explain why live sometimes seem unfair, why bad people some times are not punished and good people suferer but also explain that they have the freedom to change to that.

They would celebrate life since it's a chaotic force that brings many posibilties.

Order clerics on the other hand, would be all about fate and destiny, the universe has fundamental laws and we cna't change our lives just accept what the universal laws gave to us.

There would be a lot of focus on Harmony and Discipline, prophecy and divination would also play a big role in the tmeples.

They would be very respectful towards death since it's the untimate order, it never fails, everyoen has their time pre destined, there is no escpae and it's ummatable and bring stillness.

The balance faith would teach life and detah and one of the same, and infinite cycle that has both order and chaos.

Kaptin Keen
2018-07-19, 09:54 AM
The original Thief series has two gods - the Orderly Builder, and the Chaotic Trickster.

The Builder has knights and steam engines and big hammers, and rules in the cities. Strict commandments and harsh justice, and a lot of mumbling about hammers.

The Trickster has magic and all manner of beasts and all-round weirdness, and rules in the wilderness. Also speaks in riddles. Also an avatar with cloven hoves, and vines growing out of his footsteps.

They are dated but excellent games - but if you feel playing through them just for the fluff is a bit over the top, there's a wiki too.

JeenLeen
2018-07-20, 09:15 AM
First off, I reckon most folk would venerate both gods to some degree. And it seems reasonable most clergy would be of Balance, but maybe trying to appease one set of gods to get good favor/blessings/luck/etc. So maybe there is a Church of Chaos and Church of Law in a big town, but they essentially work together for the same goal, but just talking to different gods.

I do think they could vary a bit in nuance and outlook.
If you take the philosophical/theological concept that "the microcosm is a mirror of the macrocosm" (or vice-versa), you get that: just as the World needs Balance to exist, so too does the individual. However, those serving Chaos probably think the world would be better if things were a bit more free, and likewise Order thinking the other way.

Thus, morals differ. Chaos probably emphasizes stuff like white lies to protect feelings, stealing is okay in some circumstances. Order emphasizes the more cliche orderly things. This is to reflect what they each think is best for society as a whole and the individual. (Even Order can care about the individual, either as part of the whole or because being ordered internally is good for the soul.)

And, of course, there are some radicals. Maybe even the main churches accept that those form as elements to keep one side from winning, e.g., sometimes a Champion of Chaos has to destroy a civilization, or a Champion of Order has to tame a wilderness or wipe out some barbarian tribes. It isn't necessarily liked, especially by those who suffer in the meantime, but folk accept it happens. And usually the more radical elements are posed against the other side's more radical elements, hopefully not leaving the main populace in the middle.

Norahgami
2018-07-20, 07:12 PM
Hi guys!

I've always liked the ideas of Order and Chaos, and I don't think it would be too farfetched to make them into religions; just ignore all the negative aspects and focus on the positive!

For example, Order is something that Human Beings desperately seek out: we make our streets straight, we wall our cities to create centers of 'order' relative to the chaos of the outside (if we're talking about ancient peoples, at least). We develop laws, rules, methods to make sure that we don't suffer anymore stupidly than we have too (haha)--we develop civilization specifically to avoid the destructive tendencies of Chaos; or at least its tendency to be so intensely unpredictable that we die of anxiety. Order means control, and humans like having that because it means we can survive and not suffer and die horribly. So, a religion focused on order would be the centering of one's life, the slow accumulation of control of one's surroundings so that it can be in-order. It would focus on organizing your mind, your home, your schedule, making sure everything functions like a clock--exactly how it should, so that tomorrow is made easier by your actions today.

However, the shockingly negative part of that is if you fall too far into order, your life isn't just boring, its tyrannical. You become a slave to your own order.

Meanwhile, on the other hand, a bit of Chaos is something else that humans need and seek out. Chaos is exciting, new, unpredictable, unknown: scary, but when conquored, brings an unbelievable sense of fulfillment. Do you ever feel extreme jubilation and passion from finishing something you've done a hundred thousand times? Probably not. But take down a lion in the wilderness with nothing but a spear (a situation where you don't know the outcome, i.e. you might die or you might survive) and you'll feel a rush of victorious enthusiasm. Chaos keeps us interested, new things fascinate mankind. A religion devoted to Chaos would be one promoting trying new experiences, getting out of your comfort zone, facing and overcoming intense obsticals. Opportunity, potential, and boundless energy: these would be their tennents.

Again though, the shockingly negative part is if you're so far into Chaos you don't know what to expect, you start getting anxious, scared, and too horrified to move forward in life.

The thin line between the two is the best place to walk: one foot in Order, one in Chaos!

Bohandas
2018-07-20, 08:06 PM
Relevant questions are Is it a god, a pantheon, and/or a philosophy/religion? And is it chaotic itself and/or does it espouse chaotic ideals?

A chaotic deity might conceivably prefer lawful/orderly followers who will more effectively enact it's whims, whereas a deity with chaotic ideals might itself not be so chaotic in practice; especially one whose chaotic ideal is eradicating a particular lawful ideal, which might take reliable and concentrated effort.

Followers of a chaotic religion might not have a set pentheon or specific roster of deities that they follow, even among the clerics; they might switch from deity to deity to cosmic force to plane to powerful fey or draconic or elemental entity to deity on a whim

Ghen
2018-07-20, 09:30 PM
You can see this in action if you play Lords of Magic (it's $5 on steam). Chaos is a barbarian-type of society that values freedom, enjoys excellent luck in most cases, and (in this game) despise restrictive armor and enjoy fast movement speeds.

Order is more "civilized", valueing structured society, clear laws, honors traditionalism, and is protected by the heaviest of armors.

It's a good game, if a little glitchy.

Lord Raziere
2018-07-20, 09:54 PM
We already have those, they called:

Order: Courtrooms

Chaos: Casinos

Khloros
2018-07-21, 01:21 PM
The Ultima games have the Ophidian Virtues is a virtue belief system used by the Ophidians of Serpent Isle. This philosophy is sometimes called the Way of Balance and the Ethical Philosophy of Balance.

The whole Ophidian belief system is based on the Balance between Order and Chaos. Neither Order nor Chaos are enough; if any of them were left unchecked, destruction would ensue. This leads to Imbalance, the anti-principle of Balance.

The Forces are distinct aspects of the Order and Chaos principles. The Ophidian system comprises six Forces, three from Order and three from Chaos; the Forces of Order are Ethicality, Discipline and Logic, while the Forces of Chaos are Tolerance, Enthusiasm and Emotion.

You can read more about the virtues of Chaos and Order here: http://ultima.wikia.com/wiki/Ophidian_Virtues

jayem
2018-07-21, 02:10 PM
Order&Chaos sound to be the words from a slightly Orderish Point of View. I'm not sure what the equivalent would be, Constraint&Freedom?
(bonus points if each side can claim/condemn the same word)
[ETA]
Perhaps Freedom(from) V Chaos, Freedom(to) V Regulated

Nifft
2018-07-21, 02:42 PM
Order&Chaos sound to be the words from a slightly Orderish Point of View. I'm not sure what the equivalent would be, Constraint&Freedom?
(bonus points if each side can claim/condemn the same word)
[ETA]
Perhaps Freedom(from) V Chaos, Freedom(to) V Regulated

Law might have been the less-positive version of Order.

Other word-pairs with a slant against Order might be:

- Static vs. Dynamic
- Subordination vs. Rebellion
- Obedience vs. Willfulness
- Conformity vs. Individuality

Joe the Rat
2018-07-21, 08:21 PM
It's my preferred milieu, though I've kind of gotten roped into Order(Good|Creation|Light) and Chaos(Evil|Destruction|Darkness) with my setting. If I were to rebalance, I'd add a little more jackass to the order side, and more sympathy and Sacred Darkness to the chaotic.

Another one to play with is Romanticism v. Enlightenment. To understand, measure, quantify, disassemble, diagram, recreate - science, reason, reductionism are perspectives of Order. To experience, the surface seen and the Mysteries and half-hidden truths of the demimonde; wild spaces and emotions and aesthetics - the values of Chaos. Neither holds beauty or art; each has its own perspectives and methods.

Order is Sacred Texts and Rote Ritual, Chaos is Inspired speech and Mania.

On a more pratical standpoint, you can group Domains into more Order and Chaos inclined groups, and have a few deities on each side. The pantheon is for all, dedicated priests seek to spread the agenda of their deity.

Nifft
2018-07-21, 08:26 PM
It's my preferred milieu, though I've kind of gotten roped into Order(Good|Creation|Light) and Chaos(Evil|Destruction|Darkness) with my setting. If I were to rebalance, I'd add a little more jackass to the order side, and more sympathy and Sacred Darkness to the chaotic. You could do a thing where too much Light = death, as is the case in deserts and sterilization by fire.

The moonlight might also heal a type of injury -- perhaps Light cures physical ills, but Darkness cures mental maladies & emotional pain. In that context, Lunatics are people who ache for the moon's anodyne, rather than being driven to madness by the moon.

Amaril
2018-07-21, 09:48 PM
It's my preferred milieu, though I've kind of gotten roped into Order(Good|Creation|Light) and Chaos(Evil|Destruction|Darkness) with my setting. If I were to rebalance, I'd add a little more jackass to the order side, and more sympathy and Sacred Darkness to the chaotic.

You could do a thing where too much Light = death, as is the case in deserts and sterilization by fire.

The moonlight might also heal a type of injury -- perhaps Light cures physical ills, but Darkness cures mental maladies & emotional pain. In that context, Lunatics are people who ache for the moon's anodyne, rather than being driven to madness by the moon.

Why is light associated with Order and darkness with Chaos? Light is energy, things moving and acting upon one another; in darkness there is stillness, stability, peace. If I were to make a setting based on Order vs. Chaos, I'd have Order be associated with darkness and symbolized by black, and Chaos with light and symbolized by white.

Lord Raziere
2018-07-21, 10:08 PM
Why is light associated with Order and darkness with Chaos? Light is energy, things moving and acting upon one another; in darkness there is stillness, stability, peace. If I were to make a setting based on Order vs. Chaos, I'd have Order be associated with darkness and symbolized by black, and Chaos with light and symbolized by white.

I agree with your logic. I've observed the humanity has a marked tendency to associate Light with Things Being Known, Things Being Known With Order and thus Light = Knowledge= Order. While associating Chaos with Unknown and therefore Darkness. so Joe's conflict is more "Knowledge vs. Unknown."

Nifft
2018-07-22, 01:12 AM
Why is light associated with Order and darkness with Chaos?

Because he said he got roped into that.

Personally I'd have Order = grey and Chaos = multi-color.

Amaril
2018-07-22, 01:34 AM
Because he said he got roped into that.

Personally I'd have Order = grey and Chaos = multi-color.

I meant in general, not his setting specifically. I've also done Order light, Chaos dark--I think it's a question of the scale of the setting. If it's more personal and grounded, setting the duality to a human perspective makes sense; the reverse feels appropriate to me for a broader cosmic conflict.

Though I would point out, multiple colors of light together produce white, and isn't grey just midway between the two extremes of white and black?

Nifft
2018-07-22, 02:15 AM
Though I would point out, multiple colors of light together produce white, and isn't grey just midway between the two extremes of white and black?

Multiple colors of paint mixed together produce brown, and in a fantasy setting mixing light beams seems a bit anachronistic compared to mixing pigments.

Grey is the midpoint of all colors on the color cylinder. So sure, it's between black and white, but it's also between all the other colors and their opposites.


https://preview.ibb.co/k3JuWy/1024px_HSV_color_solid_cylinder.png (https://ibb.co/mhtiPJ)