Any Good Tabletop Mana systems?

[CowardlyPaladin]

I play a lot of video games and while I actually like the Vancian magic system, I do sometimes want to play around with the most common video game magic system in D&D and see how it feels, not as a replacement system but as a alternative system in the same vein as psionics. Problem is, has there every been any real method to make a mana spell system work beyond spell points? I heard the everquest RPG did a pretty good job, does anybody else know any system that can get the best rhythm of mana you find in games like Wow, Dragon Age, or Diablo?

[Mike Miller]

Unhelpful answer: this should be in the roleplaying games forum

Also unhelpful answer: I don't know of a good Mana system, but unearthed arcana has a system for 3.5 d&d (neutral opinion on it's value)

[heavyfuel]

If you're looking for 3.5 (and PF), then the Psionics subsystem is pretty much on point.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Psionics is a great point-based system. So much potential that they didn't really capitalize on. I mean, there should never be a greater psionic [X] power, since augmentation is a thing. I mean, why is greater psionic fabricate even a thing?

There's always Final Fantasy d20 (www.finalfantasyd20). Not sure how good it is, though. It doesn't run on the same system as power points. For instance, a level 1 FF spell costs 1 magic point, a level 2 FF spell costs 2 points, etc, all the way up to 9 points for a level 9 spell.

[heavyfuel]

For instance, a level 1 FF spell costs 1 magic point, a level 2 FF spell costs 2 points, etc, all the way up to 9 points for a level 9 spell.

I haven't seen the spells, but my kneejerk reaction is to think this abuse-able as hell.

[CowardlyPaladin]

I'd argue the major difference between spell points and mana is that the mana system allows regeneration, either as a constant thing (Dragon Age) or steadily over time (WOW, Everquest), while a spell point system has the same 8 hour overlay that Wizards have. Also Mana often has much larger numbers.

[Eldan]

Obviously, one recharges mana by having famous ancestors and living in the same location for a long time.

[Psyren]

The tabletop version of Dragon Age uses mana points if you want to crib that system.

For an "open source" variant, check out Spell Points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm) from the SRD.

[The Random NPC]

While not a mana point system, I'm a big fan of the Slayers d20 system of magic. Everyone gets Int mod worth of spell levels, and you make a Fort save everytime you cast a spell. There are a variety of factors that modify the DC up and down to represent getting tired or concentrating really hard on this one spell.

[InvisibleBison]

I'd argue the major difference between spell points and mana is that the mana system allows regeneration, either as a constant thing (Dragon Age) or steadily over time (WOW, Everquest), while a spell point system has the same 8 hour overlay that Wizards have. Also Mana often has much larger numbers.

You could try combining spell points with recharge magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/rechargeMagic.htm). I suspect it would be a huge mess in terms of bookkeeping, but any sort of regenerating mana would probably have that problem.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Spheres of Power uses mana instead of slots

[Fizban]

Not sure what you mean with "make a mana system work beyond spell points." Mana systems are spell point systems, unless you specifically want some sort of recharge mechanic that's not included in psionics, but that's just a nitpicky unlimited system. Which as I scroll down is indeed what you've said, and really that just shouldn't be flying. DnD absolutely 100% expects limited resources on "spells" and stops working the same when you make everything infinite, forcing further changes. If you want mana that recharges every fight then what you're actually looking at is a warlock, or martial adept if you're the type that looks at maneuvers that way.

For converting all the normal spells so they're actually meant to work with spell points the way psionics are from the ground up, someone by the name of Ernir did that on the forum, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?194002-3-5-A-Translation-of-Vancian-Spellcasting-to-Psionic-Mechanics). But if like me you don't agree with their personal game balance changes (such things as making fireball into multi-energy ball and also reducing it to 2nd level compared to the psionic 4th level), then you'll still have to go over the whole thing and retune it to your needs (I got about halfway through reading it myself).

[ManicOppressive]

I haven't seen the spells, but my kneejerk reaction is to think this abuse-able as hell.

Psionic powers are pretty well tuned to avoid being overpowered. Psions definitely have more lasting power than arcane or divine casters, but they tend to have less immediate impact in every field except blasting, where frankly no one touches them.

The main 'gimmick' to the power system is that rather than stop using your 2nd level blasting power like you would a spell, you instead have the option to pump more power into it to make it look more like a high level spell.

The limiting factors are that a) you can't put more power points into a single power than your Manifester Level (Psionic Caster Level) and b) powers tend to cap their effectiveness well below spells of the same level but then allow augmentations to make them equal or better.

A good example is the power Temporal Acceleration, which is a 6th level power that is basically a 1-turn Time Stop. By augmenting it in a way that is only possible for a 15th level caster, you can make it two rounds, and you can get three once you're level 19, making it a little weaker than Time Stop but more versatile and available earlier.

All in all, Psions balance out remarkably well. They're easier to play effectively but harder to abuse to absurdity than arcane or divine casters.

And as to the OP, they're basically exactly what you want. You get X PP/day depending on level, (where X is upwards of 500 on a high level optimized build) and can spend it on known powers however you want. They regenerate at night like everything else, but you're not going to find anything in a tabletop RPG that tries to break down mana regeneration on smaller units than days. It's just not effective for the way games are actually run at tables.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Psionic powers are pretty well tuned to avoid being overpowered. Psions definitely have more lasting power than arcane or divine casters, but they tend to have less immediate impact in every field except blasting, where frankly no one touches them.He was referring to the Final Fantasy d20 magic points, where the cost is 1 mp per spell level (1 mp for a 1st level spell and 9 mp for a 9th level spell).

[Nifft]

There's a spellpoint system in Midnight (a d20 setting from 3.0e), but it's overall a pretty serious nerf to magic -- intentionally, since the setting is meant to be grim.

[ManicOppressive]

He was referring to the Final Fantasy d20 magic points, where the cost is 1 mp per spell level (1 mp for a 1st level spell and 9 mp for a 9th level spell).

Oh, my bad, I disconnected something in my head. Well, everything I said was basically relevant to how Psionics fit what the OP wanted anyway.

[CowardlyPaladin]

Basically I was actually imagining classes that mess with the 8 hour cycle, gradually getting mana back over the course of the day rather than at the end of the day, cause it can change the entire dynamic of the game and can make up for more limited spells.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Basically I was actually imagining classes that mess with the 8 hour cycle, gradually getting mana back over the course of the day rather than at the end of the day, cause it can change the entire dynamic of the game and can make up for more limited spells.Well, psionics can do something like that. There are several recharge strategies, though none are automatic. Of course, you could always get a ring of sustenance and get everything back in 2 hours of rest. (Getting spells and power points back is a benefit of 8 hours of rest, which the ring gives you.)

[ericgrau]

Basically I was actually imagining classes that mess with the 8 hour cycle, gradually getting mana back over the course of the day rather than at the end of the day, cause it can change the entire dynamic of the game and can make up for more limited spells.

The biggest thing that ruins that is spell durations. And a few other factors. They're all balanced around being per day.

Fortunately 90% of what you cast in D&D is cast during combat, and mana works for those. You could at least do a mana system for them, probably something like spell points but reduced a bit to be per combat (and possibly more with mid combat mana potions), instead of per day. The problems are all the other spells cast between combats. Taking into account duration is one factor, but there's also other between combat utility that doesn't rely on duration. That could be a beast to figure out. I mean if you can recharge again and again you could get abusive with the buff, divination and other utility spell spamming. Even after the utility wears off, it could have long term consequences such as constructions. I can think of lots of partial solutions but nothing great, and probably nothing that won't require heavy playtesting to get right. In the end you'll probably have to think of a conservative solution that errs on the side of making them too weak to avoid breaking the game. And since 90% of your spells still work well that's not terrible, just makes the game a little less fun to nerf utility like that.

[Anonymouswizard]

Yeah, this should really be in Roleplaying General.

And now, a quick rundown of systems I own that have a 'mana system'.

-In Savage Worlds all spellcasters regenerate 1PP/hour, increasing that to every thirty minutes with an edge, and every fifteen minutes with a second edge.
-In Unknown Armies (which uses a slot/point hybrid system, and one of the few to make it work by letting you split higher level slots but not combine lower levels) you generate Charges by engaging in an activity thematic to your Adept School.
-In GURPS you recover 1FP for every ten minutes of light activity (I think) or rest.
-In Keltia you recover Furour by eating and sleeping.
-In Traveller you recover Psionic Strength by not using your powers for a bit.
-In Fantasy Age you recover MP with rest (and return to full with eight hours).
-In The Dark Eye you recover 1d6AE or KP for every regeneration phase you take (~6 hours of no more than light activity).
-In Qin: the Warring States you recover Chi by rest or rolling a critical success.
-In Legends of the Wulin you recover Chi by, I think it's rest again.
-In my homebrew system you automatically recover Spiritual Energy at a rate of 1d6+EMP a day (but most people only have 10+2*EMP). But that intentionally keeps all 'resource pools' under twenty for anybody human sized. Also intentionally keeps casting ability and SE regeneration low enough that casting spells isn't a first resort (and then keeps spell skill levels low enough that magicians want to specialise).

EDIT: ones I forgot I owned.
-In Vampire: the Requiem you recover Vitae by drinking blood.
-In Werewolf the Apocalypse you recover rate by being angry and gnosis by meditating.
-In Mage the Ascension you recover Quintessence by meditating at a node (or some Prime spells).
-In Demon the Fallen you recover faith at dawn via your existing pacts (much better dawn where the person who made the pact is, it's much better to have pacts all over the world).
-In Victoriana Quintessence recovers at one pip per two hours of rest or four hours of light activity, and can spend an hour to attempt to recover faster (they need at least two successes, and get one pip per success).

[stack]

If you go to a recharge system, you could look at making longer duration effects be 'sustained'. Basically you can't recover the mana spent on them until they are dismissed.

[SangoProduction]

There's Path of Paper (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fhEGY_BiXG2KnF4dxSFxllqVffYg1nKtOm_lmPb0xUU/edit?usp=sharing). I even helped proofread/edit since version 1.2. It, overall, isn't a great system, since it tries and take an ARPG and put it into a TTRPG system, but it's not strictly bad, and it has a mana system.

On the other hand, Spheres of Power (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/) for Pathfinder/3.5 is exactly what you're looking for...probably.

[CowardlyPaladin]

Yeah, this should really be in Roleplaying General.

And now, a quick rundown of systems I own that have a 'mana system'.

-In Savage Worlds all spellcasters regenerate 1PP/hour, increasing that to every thirty minutes with an edge, and every fifteen minutes with a second edge.
-In Unknown Armies (which uses a slot/point hybrid system, and one of the few to make it work by letting you split higher level slots but not combine lower levels) you generate Charges by engaging in an activity thematic to your Adept School.
-In GURPS you recover 1FP for every ten minutes of light activity (I think) or rest.
-In Keltia you recover Furour by eating and sleeping.
-In Traveller you recover Psionic Strength by not using your powers for a bit.
-In Fantasy Age you recover MP with rest (and return to full with eight hours).
-In The Dark Eye you recover 1d6AE or KP for every regeneration phase you take (~6 hours of no more than light activity).
-In Qin: the Warring States you recover Chi by rest or rolling a critical success.
-In Legends of the Wulin you recover Chi by, I think it's rest again.
-In my homebrew system you automatically recover Spiritual Energy at a rate of 1d6+EMP a day (but most people only have 10+2*EMP). But that intentionally keeps all 'resource pools' under twenty for anybody human sized. Also intentionally keeps casting ability and SE regeneration low enough that casting spells isn't a first resort (and then keeps spell skill levels low enough that magicians want to specialise).

EDIT: ones I forgot I owned.
-In Vampire: the Requiem you recover Vitae by drinking blood.
-In Werewolf the Apocalypse you recover rate by being angry and gnosis by meditating.
-In Mage the Ascension you recover Quintessence by meditating at a node (or some Prime spells).
-In Demon the Fallen you recover faith at dawn via your existing pacts (much better dawn where the person who made the pact is, it's much better to have pacts all over the world).
-In Victoriana Quintessence recovers at one pip per two hours of rest or four hours of light activity, and can spend an hour to attempt to recover faster (they need at least two successes, and get one pip per success).


wow thats quite a varied collection, did you ever play the Everquest RPG from awhile back?

[digiman619]

If you want a "recharging mana bar"-style casting, you can try ethermagic (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/strange-magic). It's for Pathfinder, so some back-porting might be needed.