thoughts on feats to create dump stats.

[death390]

As we all know in these forums Martial Characters are all MAD the need multiple attributes to catch up to casters. my thoughts would be to create a single feat that shifts the balance of a stat to another. Note: to prevent Total SAD only 1 [Attribute] Feat may be taken by a character.

[Attribute]
Shrug it off: Armor Class Bonus is based on Constitution instead of Dexterity.
Pack Mule: Encumbrance is calculated based on Constitution instead of Strength.
Weapon Finesse: Melee weapon damage and attack rolls based on Dexterity instead of Strength. (Damage is Precision based and does not affect enemies immune to precision damage)
Move with the Hit: Hit Points are based on Dexterity instead of Constitution.
Bulky Toughness: Hit Points are based on Strength instead of Constitution.
Brace for Impact: Reflex Saves are calculated based on Strength instead of Dexterity.


while looking at these obviously the strength and Dexterity stats are more highly valued than Constitution but the idea is to be able to dump one of the 3 stats for something else. most likely this would be Constitution based on what i have come up with as the main reason for it is HP which could be gained from either of the other 2 stats. in addition this takes up a feat of which there are very few gained in a standard game (7) without other means of gaining feats (fighter bonus, flaws, ect). thoughts?

[heavyfuel]

I feel like it would create an unnecessary feat tax. As in, literally every character would take these feats, including spellcasters. Dex to HP is really good for Wizards and Elven Generalists everywhere rejoice. Might as well let characters take these feats as "Traits". Everyone gets one.

Also, I think no one would ever pick Packmule, but maybe that's just me.

[Arael666]

heavyfuel has a point, if your objective is to buff martials, you should focus on bringing the bonuses to things that do not interest casters at all, DEX to HP -as he pointed out - could be used by a lot of caster builds, on the other hand, I don't see a lot of casters benefiting from a CON to to-hit and damage feat (swing your weight?), aside from a few gish builds.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Why do you do it:

Weapon Finesse: Melee weapon damage and attack rolls based on Dexterity instead of Strength. (Damage is Precision based and does not affect enemies immune to precision damage)

You are replacing the STR with DEX, not adding DEX to STR like "hit ob the run" and "dead eye" do.

[heavyfuel]

Why do you do it:


You are replacing the STR with DEX, not adding DEX to STR like "hit ob the run" and "dead eye" do.

Probably because the objective is to create dump stats. If it's "add" instead of "replace", having a negative Str mod (dumping Str) will still provide a penalty to the character. It goes against the point of this houserule

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Probably because the objective is to create dump stats. If it's "add" instead of "replace", having a negative Str mod (dumping Str) will still provide a penalty to the character. It goes against the point of this houserule

I was talking about the fact he made it precision based.

(Damage is Precision based and does not affect enemies immune to precision damage)

[heavyfuel]

I was talking about the fact he made it precision based.

Then I guess it's because it makes sense.

Side note: I really like the idea of precision damage, I just don't like how easy it is to be immune to it. If OP fixes this problem then it's fine

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Then I guess it's because it makes sense.

Side note: I really like the idea of precision damage, I just don't like how easy it is to be immune to it. If OP fixes this problem then it's fine

It may make sense as a fluff but not as a game mechanic.
You just making you player worse.
The examples I gave for feat that add dex to damage as precision damage was there to show that when you add it you have the potential to make someone extra strong but if you replace it you just make them different, I don't think the downside is feating the feat power.

I think that changing it to precision damage that pass immunity(only for the damage from this feat) will serve fluff and mechanic.

[Nifft]

Then I guess it's because it makes sense.

Side note: I really like the idea of precision damage, I just don't like how easy it is to be immune to it. If OP fixes this problem then it's fine

From the DM's side of the screen, I do like when some easily-identified types of creature are immune to specific types damage, including precision.

I like rock-paper-scissors tactical considerations.

[JNAProductions]

From the DM's side of the screen, I do like when some easily-identified types of creature are immune to specific types damage, including precision.

I like rock-paper-scissors tactical considerations.

The issue is, all you have is Scissors, so when Rock comes up, you're utterly screwed.

And when you're a Rogue, you have no real way of changing that. A Wizard who prepared nothing but Scissors is boned when they meet Rock, but they can run away, prepare Paper, and win.

A Rogue has Scissors and nothing else. When they meet Rock, they have to run or die, and nothing they can do can change that, short of mutliclassing heavily into something with Paper.

[Nifft]

The issue is, all you have is Scissors, so when Rock comes up, you're utterly screwed.

And when you're a Rogue, you have no real way of changing that. A Wizard who prepared nothing but Scissors is boned when they meet Rock, but they can run away, prepare Paper, and win.

A Rogue has Scissors and nothing else. When they meet Rock, they have to run or die, and nothing they can do can change that, short of mutliclassing heavily into something with Paper.

1a - You're not utterly screwed, you're just much less effective than would be optimal. A Rogue can still contribute a bit even when Sneak Attack isn't going to work. At worst -- if you can't SA and you can't penetrate DR -- you can still Aid Another + Flank. It's fine if you're not the MVP in every combat, so long as you are the MVP in some other situations.

1b - You're not always screwed, you just need to be a bit smarter about picking targets. Don't attack the Ogre Zombie and expect to deal massive damage, instead tumble past it and attack the Necromancer. Or hide in shadows and snipe the Necromancer. Or if there's no Necromancer, go disarm the water trap that's filling the Ogre Zombie pit and threatening to drown the Barbarian and Cleric.

2 - When you're a Rogue, you put ranks in UMD so you have access to a wide variety of tactics beyond Sneak Attack.

3 - A Rogue has stealth & perception (to avoid fighting), UMD (to convert money => power), social skills, and Sneak Attack.

[JNAProductions]

1a - You're not utterly screwed, you're just much less effective than would be optimal. A Rogue can still contribute a bit even when Sneak Attack isn't going to work. At worst -- if you can't SA and you can't penetrate DR -- you can still Aid Another + Flank. It's fine if you're not the MVP in every combat, so long as you are the MVP in some other situations.

1b - You're not always screwed, you just need to be a bit smarter about picking targets. Don't attack the Ogre Zombie and expect to deal massive damage, instead tumble past it and attack the Necromancer. Or hide in shadows and snipe the Necromancer. Or if there's no Necromancer, go disarm the water trap that's filling the Ogre Zombie pit and threatening to drown the Barbarian and Cleric.

2 - When you're a Rogue, you put ranks in UMD so you have access to a wide variety of tactics beyond Sneak Attack.

3 - A Rogue has stealth & perception (to avoid fighting), UMD (to convert money => power), social skills, and Sneak Attack.

1a-If your only damage is that which you have on your middling BAB and decent weapon, with no add-ons like Power Attack or Sneak Attack... You're not doing much of anything. Yes, you can Flank and Aid Another. So can a well-trained horse.

1b-And what if the Necromancer isn't there? He just sent his minions out. Or you're facing elementals? Or oozes? Or what if the necromancer is a necropolitan or lich? There are MASSIVE swathes of enemies immune to precision damage.

2-Anyone can put ranks in UMD. A Commoner with enough levels and wealth is just as effective at UMD as a Rogue.

3-Stealth and Perception are available to many more than Rogues, same with UMD, same with social skills. In fact, literally anyone can put ranks in them and allocate stats that way-the Rogue has NO class features that support any of those, until level 10, when they can nab Skill Mastery. Sneak Attack is the only thing that's (mostly) unique to them amongst that.

I will agree, it's possible to sneak past some fights. But not every fight-the lich is performing a ritual at midnight tonight, in the darkest depths of the caverns of Moil. So no matter what, you gotta fight the lich, otherwise his ritual is going off. And moreover, while YOU, THE ROGUE, might be able to sneak past the guards and denizens of Moil... What about your party? You're now stuck there, alone, facing a foe who's immune to Sneak Attack. Better hope you have enough money and UMD to pretend to be a Wizard.

[heavyfuel]

From the DM's side of the screen, I do like when some easily-identified types of creature are immune to specific types damage, including precision.

I like rock-paper-scissors tactical considerations.

I also enjoy that, the problem is that it's too easy to pick up these immunities.

"Living Undeath" for example is a 2nd level spell that makes the touches creature immune for an entire combat. The "Heart of X" line of spells allows for immunity all day long at lv 9. "+1 armors of Heavy Fortification" is a staple beyond level 13 or so.

[Nifft]

1a-If your only damage is that which you have on your middling BAB and decent weapon, with no add-ons like Power Attack or Sneak Attack... You're not doing much of anything. Yes, you can Flank and Aid Another. So can a well-trained horse. The horse can't Sneak Attack in the next three encounters; you can. The horse cannot Bluff his way past the guards; you can. You do get to shine, just not every single time.



1b-And what if the Necromancer isn't there? Then you're in 1a, above. That's why I broke the answer into two cases. You already know what happens, since we just discussed it right above this.

My preference is that the DM should limit (1a) to a sometimes food, as I said. Being ineffective all the time would be terrible. Being ineffective sometimes is acceptable, unless you're a spotlight-hog who needs to be the best at stabbing every single round of every single fight. So just don't be that guy, and let someone else have a turn at being awesome.

As a DM, my preference is to include precision targets so the Rogues who want to stab can do so. But that's just me. Your game can & will vary.



2-Anyone can put ranks in UMD. A Commoner with enough levels and wealth is just as effective at UMD as a Rogue. Uh, no. Having a class skill and tons of skill points actually does make you better at using that skill, and it makes that skill less costly as an investment. Rogues are especially well positioned to take UMD. Also, having PC WBL is actually better for acquiring magic devices than being a penniless peasant.



3-Stealth and Perception are available to many more than Rogues, same with UMD, same with social skills. In fact, literally anyone can put ranks in them and allocate stats that way-the Rogue has NO class features that support any of those, until level 10, when they can nab Skill Mastery. Sneak Attack is the only thing that's (mostly) unique to them amongst that. Sneak Attack isn't unique to Rogues, and so what?

You claimed that being unable to Sneak Attack for one encounter means that the Rogue is "utterly screwed". That's not true, because Sneak Attack is not the only thing that a Rogue can do.

In a party where a T4 Rogue is appropriate, there might be many encounters for which no T3-T4 class has an easy win mechanical solution.

[Nifft]

I also enjoy that, the problem is that it's too easy to pick up these immunities.

"Living Undeath" for example is a 2nd level spell that makes the touches creature immune for an entire combat. The "Heart of X" line of spells allows for immunity all day long at lv 9. "+1 armors of Heavy Fortification" is a staple beyond level 13 or so.

Yeah I do NOT like that in a spell.

The Heart of... spells are a bit better since you have to spend FOUR of them, the benefits go away if you use the (powerful) end-trigger options, and dispelling any one will remove the fortification... but yeah. They're not great for the game if every NPC makes use of them, nor if every PC has access to them.