Need help for monster crafting idea: "Boss" and "Big Boss" templates/formulas.

[Unoriginal]

I was thinking about 5e's monster design and the oft-asked questions about how to have a challenging but not too tough boss, as well as the fact many people don't like to juggle with numbers to homebrew things, and the question came to me: "would it be possible to have some kind of template or formula you can apply to an existing monster to help people come up with boss stats more easily?"

Now, obviously, there is no need to systematize everything, and just slapping a template on a monster doesn't make them more memorable or anything (that's mostly depending on how the DM play them), but if it can help anyone, it'd be nice.

So, I need you guys help on figuring out if it's possible or even a good idea, and if yes how to do it.

So far this is what I got:

Boss formula (aka fight with 1-4 allies):

1. Take monster of an appropriate CR for group's level

2. Give them (normal HPs*1.5)

3. Give them one more attack via Multiattack

4. Give them proficiency in the save they have either the worst or the best modifier

5. If base monster has an iconic ability that requires an action to use, allow them to do so with a bonus action OR if base monster has an iconic ability that requires a bonus action or no action to use, change it to (normal range*1.5/normal damage*1.5)

6. Add +2 to the save DC of the monster's main DC based ability.


Big Boss (aka fight solo) formula:

1. Take monster of an appropriate CR for group's level

2. Give them (normal HPs*1.75)

3. Give them one more attack via Multiattack

4. Add +2 to four of their stats

5. Give them proficiency in the saves they have the worst and the best modifiers

6. If base monster has an iconic ability that requires an action to use, allow them to do so with a bonus action OR if base monster has an iconic ability that requires a bonus action or no action to use, change it to (normal range*1.5/normal damage*1.5)

7. Give them a Legendary Action allowing them to do a regular attack/use a special attack/use a spell


What do you guys think? Worthwhile? Pointless? Too big a subject to try to quick-n-dirty it? Good concept but terrible example formula?

PS:

If you guys feel like applying those formulas to a few random monsters to see the results, it'd be a huge help and very welcomed.

[Aembrosia]

Made a shadow demon big boss. Tried 3 different legendary actions: cast darkness, move, or claw.
Verdict, pretty scary. Even with only a claw legendary. Note: players had no magic weapons.

Made a bandit captain boss. Wisdom save increase avoided a hold person. Four attacks in tier one is shock and awe. Put the action/bonus action update in his parry. Became reposte. Reaction +2 ac and an immediate dagger attack.
A lot more fun to operate as a dm and fight as a player than the shadow demon.

Ide say it works fine for a quick touch up and you definitely only want to do this once to a statblock. A boss updated version of a boss updated version of a boss updated kobald was just silly.

[UrielAwakened]

This has been my approach to making difficult solo monsters in 5e that can actually fight a party without help from other monsters.

1) Double the monster's HP for it's CR (this does not affect it's actual CR). I also almost never give them AC below average for their CR. Also give it proficiency bonuses to 2-4 saves. At least one of Dex, Con, and Wis.

2) Give it a multi-attack. Ideally at least 3 attacks so it can spread around damage. Also give it at least one thing to do with its bonus action.

3) Give it 2-3 spells as potential actions. These should either take the form of area of effect damage spells, mass disables, or some other ability that can affect no less than 3 PCs at once. Giving a monster "hold person" as an action is pointless, but mass hold person can be great. Some examples I've used previously were a line of acid breath (Lightning Bolt but acid damage), casting hypnotic pattern, and sleet storm.

4) Of course you give it Legendary Resistances (I've been giving it 1 use per tier, so as high as 4 up to CR 20. Maybe more above) and Legendary Actions, which usually take the form of an additional attack, a way to move or otherwise get itself out of being surrounded (a teleport, a push effect in an area, something), and an ability to use one of the previously mentioned spells. Also, for each PC above 4 in the party, you should give it 1 additional Legendary Action point per round.

5) Finally, include terrain that is beneficial to it. I had a monster that's vision was based on heat and could burrow in a magically dark cave where all vision was reduced to 10 feet, an underwater sea chimera, and a ghost in a windy cavern that could pass through walls to attack from different sides easily.

Essentially you're trying to capture the philosophy behind 4e Elites and Solos. Elites should basically stack up to 2 PCs, and Solos should stack up to 4.

The problem is 5e's system is wonky and what they call a CR 1 monster is supposed to be a solo for a party of 4 level 1s, but a CR 1/2 isn't really the equivalent of 2 level 1 PCs. I did the XP math once and I think a CR 12 monster is roughly the equivalent of a level 20 PC? Something like that?

In essence I think you basically just need to think about in those terms. What do I need to give this monster to handle half of a party/a full party on its own.

[Unoriginal]

Made a shadow demon big boss. Tried 3 different legendary actions: cast darkness, move, or claw.
Verdict, pretty scary. Even with only a claw legendary. Note: players had no magic weapons.

Made a bandit captain boss. Wisdom save increase avoided a hold person. Four attacks in tier one is shock and awe. Put the action/bonus action update in his parry. Became reposte. Reaction +2 ac and an immediate dagger attack.
A lot more fun to operate as a dm and fight as a player than the shadow demon.

Ide say it works fine for a quick touch up and you definitely only want to do this once to a statblock. A boss updated version of a boss updated version of a boss updated kobald was just silly.

Did you run those against actual players?

Also yes, those templates are meant to be applied once only.

[Oramac]

I was thinking about 5e's monster design and the oft-asked questions about how to have a challenging but not too tough boss, as well as the fact many people don't like to juggle with numbers to homebrew things, and the question came to me: "would it be possible to have some kind of template or formula you can apply to an existing monster to help people come up with boss stats more easily?"

The short answer is yes. Longer answer below.


Good concept but terrible example formula?

Not terrible, but overly complicated, yes.

=========================

I'm a huge proponent of making BBEG encounters as epic fights against ONE baddie. In my experience, it feels better for the players to defeat one big bad that can legitimately challenge them than to kill a bunch of mooks that are obviously just there to be annoying.

So, how do I make a memorable solo big bad? Depends on the encounter, but there's several ways. Note here that I rarely use all of these on one monster, but I will use a few of them that make sense.

1. First and foremost, the DM must roleplay the fight well. THAT is the biggest thing that makes a fight memorable.

2. Legendary Actions. Want that dinky little wolf to seem like a super challenge for your second level party? Let it act on THEIR turns. The first time you do this, your players will *freak the **** out*, guaranteed.

3. Lair Actions. To be used sparingly, but these can make a fight seem much more epic in scale.

4. Phases. Yes, I said it. Take a page out of the MMO book and make fights with phases. For example, a friend of mine needed me to make a big fight for a single Wraith in her game. I gave it Legendary Actions, and also at 66% and 33% health, it exploded in supernatural anger (which fit the storyline, this is very important), dealing damage and forcing a Con save to avoid being stunned for a round.

5. Don't use the normal abilities in the "normal" order. This piggybacks off #4, but basically, if you have, say, and Ancient Dragon, don't just blow your fear right off the bat (can't remember the damn name of the ability right now. Arrgh!) Point is, maybe the dragon waits for the opportune moment to induce fear in its enemies.

[Elistan]

These are actually similar to what I did with my most recent boss fight. I think instead of a direct template, however, it might be better to just create a list of possible augmentations, and then apply whichever ones are desired/fit the monster the best.

My last boss encounter (which resulted in a TPK, unfortunately, but there's a story-based safety net in place, so I'm not overly worried):

Revenant used as base monster.
Max HP for his HD. I think boosting HP is important, as you noted. When the players launch their most powerful attacks in the first round, and the boss is still standing, it's sure to strike fear into their hearts.
Possessed a magical rod of the God of Death. Rod could raise 3 zombies as an action, including reusing the corpses of the slain zombies. Boss could only have a max of 3 zombies at one time, though.
Added heavier armor (was an armor wearing Cleric in life that was slain by the players)
Added legendary actions: Use the rod to raise zombies, move 30ft without AoO, or use the Toll the Dead cantrip (as a 1st level caster, so only 1d12).


Even despite the TPK, the players seemed to truly enjoy the challenge of the encounter, and they are hungry for revenge down the line.

[Oramac]

create a list of possible augmentations, and then apply whichever ones are desired/fit the monster the best.

This. 100% this.

And I'll second those saying to raise the monster HP. I almost always give it max HP. Sometimes more than that, depending on the situation. I forgot to mention that.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Another thing I do is, after raising the HP, I lower the AC. Not a lot. Just by 1 or 2 points. But I know for a fact it's more fun for players to hit than to miss, so I'd rather they hit more often than not. This does somewhat offset the higher HP, which means it can be a good idea to bump that up even higher, if needed.

[PhoenixPhyre]

In my experience, the key factors are (for solos):

* legendary actions (at a minimum)
* No glass canons, especially if the PCs are relatively fresh at this point. PCs can nova like nobody's business.
* At higher tiers (level 11+), legendary resistances.
* Interesting things happening in the fight, whether those are tactics, environmental effects that force movement, minions (in the "lesser monster" sense, not the 4e sense), phases, or whatever. Static stand and attack gets boring fast and is much less threatening than the numbers suggest.
* A goal beyond kill-or-be-killed often helps.



Another thing I do is, after raising the HP, I lower the AC. Not a lot. Just by 1 or 2 points. But I know for a fact it's more fun for players to hit than to miss, so I'd rather they hit more often than not. This does somewhat offset the higher HP, which means it can be a good idea to bump that up even higher, if needed.

This is important if you want the CR to stay the same. Increasing the HP by 30 (60 for CR > 20) increases the CR by 1 point; decreasing the AC by 2 (generally) reduces the CR by 0.5.

[UrielAwakened]

In my experience, the key factors are (for solos):

* legendary actions (at a minimum)
* No glass canons, especially if the PCs are relatively fresh at this point. PCs can nova like nobody's business.
* At higher tiers (level 11+), legendary resistances.
* Interesting things happening in the fight, whether those are tactics, environmental effects that force movement, minions (in the "lesser monster" sense, not the 4e sense), phases, or whatever. Static stand and attack gets boring fast and is much less threatening than the numbers suggest.
* A goal beyond kill-or-be-killed often helps.



This is important if you want the CR to stay the same. Increasing the HP by 30 (60 for CR > 20) increases the CR by 1 point; decreasing the AC by 2 (generally) reduces the CR by 0.5.

Again, for solos, you pretty much need to ignore what the book says about CR and just double the HP without changing the CR.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Again, for solos, you pretty much need to ignore what the book says about CR and just double the HP without changing the CR.

Depends on the rest of the adventuring day.

Solos where that's the only fight of the day? Sure. Absolutely. CR doesn't mean much under those conditions anyway, since you're so far outside the design envelope.

Solos after (or before) an appropriate-length day? Nope.

You do have to consider effective health, not just straight HP. One wrinkle is that effective health is modified by resistances. In T2, adding resistances to non-magic BPS increases (for CR purposes) the HP by 150%. If everyone in your party has weapons/abilities capable of piercing that, the dCR is an over-estimate. This is not the design assumption, however, since that assumes no magic items. Note that this multiplier decreases at higher CR due to the presumption that the party will be less affected by it.

Understanding the designers' assumptions is important before starting to modify things (or accusing them of bad design). You can alter these assumptions, but you have to account for those alterations later in the process to remain consistent. Doing otherwise is like those comments on recipes: "I changed X, Y, and Z and didn't follow the instructions and it came out horribly. Bad recipe."

[Dr. Cliché]

Something of a tangent, but perhaps there could be a lesser version of Legendary Actions for mini-bosses (not necessarily solo ones).

Normally, bosses have 3 Legendary actions (though certain abilities might require the use of 2+ legendary actions) and 3 Legendary Saves.

What about having some lesser bosses with 2 legendary actions and 2 legendary saves, and mini-bosses with 1 legendary action and 1 legendary save.

Could even have further variations. For example, a mini-boss might only be able to reroll a failed save, rather than auto-passing it.