OOTS #1128 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[martianmister]

Wow! :smalleek::smalleek:

[Peelee]

Awww, I really liked Minrah.

[Great Dane]

*jaw agape

[Keltest]

Grats to all the people who called Sigdi raising her friends from a dishonorable death.

[Agnostik]

There's no party like... well, there's just no party.

[talkamancer]

Come on Mr.Scruffy, you can do it.

[Mic_128]

I...well, that's a hel of a page.

Although, I'm still kind of clueless as to how Durkon thinks it'll affect Durkula.

[Flying Turtle]

The Giant has been coming in HAWT lately! And I don't just mean in terms of update speed. The quality has been phenomenal.

Now I'm really hoping we'll see Durkula go through a change of heart because of all this.

Note I said hope, not expect.

EDIT: You know what, the more I think about, from both an out of and in universe perspective, the more I think Durkula's going to have some change of heart. From an out of universe perspective the order needs help and I can't think of anyone other than Durkula that it could come from. And from an in universe perspective it makes sense as well. Roy and Durkula already had a whole discussion on free will back at the Godsmote. And during that Durkula revealed that he doesn't care about Hel's plan. He just wants to hit back at the world that wouldn't stop hitting him. Make sense that he would be affected by an inarguable act of self sacrifice and kindness. It shows that the world isn't quite as vicious as he thought, which was his whole motivation.

[Keltest]

I...well, that's a hel of a page.

Although, I'm still kind of clueless as to how Durkon thinks it'll affect Durkula.

Perhaps... he's trying to make a point about the nature of dwarven honor and self-sacrifice? That Hel isn't the one who got screwed over, the Dwarves are, and that Hel was complicit in that? And that even though they've been given a raw deal, they still keep doing good? "being a dwarf is all about doing your duty, especially if it makes you miserable" and all that?

[Quartz]

Alas, poor Minrah.

[godsflunky]

This explains a lot.

It does not explain how our heroes are going to survive.

Well done, Giant! Edge of my seat, here.

[littlebum2002]

Time for a poll. Is someone going to jump in and save them, or are we being faked out?

[brian 333]

Grats to all the people who called Sigdi raising her friends from a dishonorable death.

And shame on me for naysaying the idea.

I have to agree that Mr. Burlew has stepped up his game. This comic just keeps getting awesomer! (Can I say awesomer on the internet?)

[Curupira]

Alas, poor Minrah.

Yeah, I'll also miss her. But at least she died with honor (and won't be vamped).

[LordSith]

Wait, he says 3 then 4, are they all dead like Minrah??

Edit: ok I get it, ROy had forgotten about Hilgya

[Peelee]

Perhaps... he's trying to make a point about the nature of dwarven honor and self-sacrifice? That Hel isn't the one who got screwed over, the Dwarves are, and that Hel was complicit in that? And that even though they've been given a raw deal, they still keep doing good? "being a dwarf is all about doing your duty, especially if it makes you miserable" and all that?

Except even young Durkon didn't believe it. And the priests thought that Durkmom knew the miners at first. That's not just the nature of dwarven honor and self-sacrifice, that's an exemplary dwarf.

[hamishspence]

Sigdi is even more awesome than usual.

[2D8HP]

I cannae believe it indeed!

Just wow.

Sergeant Sigdi totally is the "dwarfiest dwarf who ever dwarfed"!

Nice to see Ponchola/Ponchula/Ponchella smile, but such a cost.

Oh man! Oh man! Oh man!

Such a cliffhanger!

So not touching that dial.

[isamaru]

Any known characters among the resurrected miners? The 'I can't believe it' guy looks kind of familiar.

[Zonkerbl]

Time for a poll. Is someone going to jump in and save them, or are we being faked out?

Lessee, people still available to save the day: Durkon, and dwarven priest lady breaking her domination. Oh and Belkar's kitty.

[Crusher]

Boom Boom. Out go the lights.

[Arkku]

Any known characters among the resurrected miners? The 'I can't believe it' guy looks kind of familiar.

Is he the one who told Durkon about the troll?

[Peelee]

Any known characters among the resurrected miners? The 'I can't believe it' guy looks kind of familiar.

Sigdi's friends (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1089.html). The ones who have strong feelings about her paying back debts.

[NRSASD]

Now I have a problem. When the Giant updated irregularly, I could tide myself over by knowing that the next comic will appear when it's ready and not a second before. The plot would be resolved in due time.

But with this blisteringly breakneck speed he's been updating at, I've begun to hope that the next comic is not far behind. And with a cliffhanger like that, I NEED resolution!! I can't believe it! AAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[denthor]

Does this mean he can get an invite to do evil stuff later again?

[Mic_128]

Perhaps... he's trying to make a point about the nature of dwarven honor and self-sacrifice? That Hel isn't the one who got screwed over, the Dwarves are, and that Hel was complicit in that? And that even though they've been given a raw deal, they still keep doing good? "being a dwarf is all about doing your duty, especially if it makes you miserable" and all that?

Eeeeeehhhhh, maybe? Hel did get screwed over, and so to do Dwarves, but she was complicit in it only as much as she accepted the bargain she was offered. Odin and the others are the ones who screwed both over, so I don't see that making Durkula turn on Hel.

[Crusher]

Any known characters among the resurrected miners? The 'I can't believe it' guy looks kind of familiar.

True, though isn't Durkula just Durkon? One of the spawn?

[Lord Torath]

Wow! Just..... Wow.

Also, look how sad Kudzu looks! And is that Future High Priestess Rubyrock?

Thanks, Rich!

[TRH]

Does this mean he can get an invite to do evil stuff later again?

Meh, Hilgya had to do all the work.

[SaintRidley]

Well no wonder Durkon follows so closely in his mother's example.

Looks like Supermagle was on the right track:


... the memories that Durkon* cannot see the combined relevance of are these:
* "tea time": http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0810.html
* "An' ye know how tha five o' us all feel aboot ye payin' us back anythin'" and "Tha owners o' the hall're Odin-worshippers, so thar always closed on Tuesday": http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1089.html

Wild guess: Sigdi donated to the Temple of Thor to raise those five dwarves from Hel (instead of Tenrin), and they are now her friends who owe everything to her, and they borrow the hall for every Tuesday where the owners are not using it anyway. Expect a bunch of dedicated dwarves to enter at any moment - dwarves with extra incitament to fight to the death in honorable combat.

"I still can't help but notice that you volunteered a suitable location for our evil plans without even being asked".

[Phhase]

Any known characters among the resurrected miners? The 'I can't believe it' guy looks kind of familiar.

Literally all of Durkon's "Extended Family ;-)." That guy was Squeaky (forgot his real name), the bard from earlier, and you can also see Hoskin and the woman that gave Sigdi her new dress later. This was how the met/all became so close.

[ohkwarig]

Any known characters among the resurrected miners? The 'I can't believe it' guy looks kind of familiar.

A couple of folks have cited back, but I thought this one was particularly apt http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1088.html as it's where Durkon credited each of those people with an aspect of his training.

[Mic_128]

Looks like Supermagle was on the right track:

Ohhh wow. If that's true....damn!

[2D8HP]

Lessee, people still available to save the day: Durkon, and dwarven priest lady breaking her domination. Oh and Belkar's kitty.


Besides Scruffy and the dominated Hilgya there's Kudzu.

[Snails]

Come on Mr.Scruffy, you can do it.

LOL. You are awesome. Never give up.



Now I'm really hoping we'll see Durkula go through a change of heart because of all this.

Note I said hope, not expect.

Yes. I, for one, expect there will be a change of heart. Not that it would necessarily be reasonable for such a change of heart to actually affect the immediate problems of the Order. (Although the reveal in the memory may hint about additional resources available to the Order nearby, of course.)

[Crusher]

Ohhh wow. If that's true....damn!

Yeah, nail on the head.

Weaponinzed information arriving in 3... 2... 1...

[TRH]

This also explains why Sigdi's name was up on that wall despite her contribution not making the Church any richer. It's not there to commemorate her adding to Thor's coffers, but to commemorate her sacrifice on behalf of her fellow dwarves. The True Resurrection theories never answered that question quite as well, since raising her husband would be a lot more selfish than this was.

[hroþila]

That was awesome.

With the whole Order out of order, I guess there's not that many ways for them to get out of this:

- Sigdi and friends come to have their dinner party as usual.
- Hilgya breaks the domination and somehow wins on her own or gets everybody else on their feet. Pretty unlikely.
- Vamp Durkon is shaken very badly once Durkon explains the scene to him and that causes him to spare the Order, if not to abandon his plans altogether. Huh.
- For completeness' sake: Vamp Durkon is shaken so badly that Durkon actually regains control of his body.
- Mr Scruffy throws hat stake, kills Ponchette, Hilgya's domination is broken and hilarity ensues.

[SaintRidley]

Following up on Supermagle's idea, the key to it working as a reveal to us that Durkon's aunts and uncles might be showing up without revealing to the vampire the same is the fact that, as we learned earlier with the memory of Durkon's first time adventuring with Roy, the vampire cannot connect memories to derive new information from them. It simply doesn't know how to connect the dots.

[skim172]

Any known characters among the resurrected miners? The 'I can't believe it' guy looks kind of familiar.

I believe they're Sigdi's five friends - Durkon's "uncles" and "aunts" who helped raise him as a child.

From left to right: Shirra (gave Sigdi the dress), Kandro (taught him how to use his hammer and shield), Thirden (told Durkon about his father), the as-yet unnamed aunt, and Hoskin (starred in such films as The Long Good Friday and Who Framed Roger Rabbit).

They're all shown together here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1088.html

[antipodeF]

Things that could happen, as I see them:

1) Someone is pretending to be asleep. (Haley? Elan? Roy? No one else could possibly pull off the Bluff.)
2) Vaarsuvius cast an illusion of some kind before the fight, which has misled us all, including Roy. (I couldn't begin to guess what could be so powerful.)
3) Durkon is about to win the fight somehow.
4) Durkula might have a dramatic change of heart and stop working for Hel. (I have my doubts)
5) One of the vampires might stop working for Durkula for whatever reason, possibly related to some kind of outburst he's about to have.
6) Big Damn Heroes to the rescue! (Wrecan? Bandanna? Julio? Thor?) (EDIT: Or Durkon's mother! Or father, for that matter! They never found the body, did they?)
7) Mr. Scruffy, get the caster!

[Zejety]

This also explains why Sigdi's name was up on that wall despite her contribution not making the Church any richer. It's not there to commemorate her adding to Thor's coffers, but to commemorate her sacrifice on behalf of her fellow dwarves. The True Resurrection theories never answered that question quite as well, since raising her husband would be a lot more selfish than this was.

It was established in an earlier strip that paying for spell components is considered a donation. Sigdi talks about not getting her arm regenerated and something along the lines of not being able to "afford the donation the high priest would require".

[georgie_leech]

Man, I feel spoiled with how quickly the comic is updating. And I don't know how it shakes out in the end, but for this combat, so far I'm counting it Order: 0, Vamps 1.

Durkon 1.

[resound]

Wait. What?!

[Sienar]

I believe they're Sigdi's five friends - Durkon's "uncles" and "aunts" who helped raise him as a child.

From left to right: Shirra (gave Sigdi the dress), Kandro (taught him how to use his hammer and shield), Thirden (told Durkon about his father), the as-yet unnamed aunt, and Hoskin (starred in such films as The Long Good Friday and Who Framed Roger Rabbit).

They're all shown together here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1088.html

Interesting that the unnamed aunt isn't at Durkon's ordination party. It seems that Cousin Logann is there in her place.

[DaggerPen]

Congratulations to TheStranger! You definitely called it!

Man, though, I don't think anyone saw a total party wipe coming. Alas, poor Minrah - bur at least she's escaped Hel. If Durkon's going to make a play, the time is now.

[brian 333]

Interesting that the unnamed aunt isn't at Durkon's ordination party. It seems that Cousin Logann is there in her place.

Isn't she standing right there beside her son?

[godsflunky]

Interesting that the unnamed aunt isn't at Durkon's ordination party. It seems that Cousin Logann is there in her place.

She's totally there, standing right next to Logann. She's Logann's mom.

EDIT: Ninja'd! Why do I even try, especially in the comic discussion threads...?

[Keltest]

Interesting that the unnamed aunt isn't at Durkon's ordination party. It seems that Cousin Logann is there in her place.

Um... isn't she literally standing right next to Logann?

[Psychronia]

Holy. Crap. I'm not sure how this helps in the now and it looks really bad for the Order, but the real star of the strip is Sigdri.

What an embodiment of not just dwarven honor, but unconditional self-sacrifice she is. With an influence like her, no wonder Durkon grew up the way he did, and there's only pride to be taken from it.

[EmperorSarda]

What happened to the sunglasses? They're gone.

Since they belonged to the familiar does that mean they disappear when no one is paying them any attention?

[fishhead202]

Well........... damn.

Kudos to everyone guessing she raised her friends!

I still don't see how this helps anything, even if Durkon is all "AND THEY'RE RIGHT BEHIND YOU!" Tactically would make more sense to NOT say anything, but maybe it's just do be dramatic, being a comic and all.

OH: And I can't help but notice that Greg isn't smiling, if that means anything.

[DougTheHead]

I...well, that's a hel of a page.

Although, I'm still kind of clueless as to how Durkon thinks it'll affect Durkula.

If I had to guess, I’d say it’s related to the vampire telling Durkon that “Hel made me to perfectly fit the hole in your heart.” I think that might be its weakness. Durkon’s banishment is the moment when his sense of duty was not just tested, but completely overthrown. And it’s that sense of injustice that is the seed for the vampire.

Only…Durkon didn’t abandon his sense of duty after being cast out. Because he still essentially believed in it, and the reason he did was because he saw how his mother’s sense of duty informed her choices, how she’d used all the money she had to help some people who had no one else, and how, upon being resurrected, they paid her back not by repaying her expenses, but by becoming her new family unit she thought she’d lost when her husband died.

She resurrected them out of a sense of duty to Thor, they became her family out of a sense of duty to her, and out of this mutual sense of obligation came a meaningful, permanent connection that helped give Durkon such a happy, supportive childhood, and allowed him to become a cleric of Thor. Durkon could never abandon his sense of duty, because he himself is the proof of what can be created by these convictions.

And that’s why I think he wants to tell the vampire this. If the vampire was made to fit the hold in Durkon’s heart, it makes sense that he would be particularly susceptible to the things Durkon uses to fill that hole.

[DaggerPen]

I just realized- the cleric with the braid here... isn't that the current High Priest of Thor?

EDIT: Nope, I looked it up and I am remembering very wrong. Not sure who she reminds me of, then.

[Messenger]

EDIT: You know what, the more I think about, from both an out of and in universe perspective, the more I think Durkula's going to have some change of heart. From an out of universe perspective the order needs help and I can't think of anyone other than Durkula that it could come from. And from an in universe perspective it makes sense as well. Roy and Durkula already had a whole discussion on free will back at the Godsmote. And during that Durkula revealed that he doesn't care about Hel's plan. He just wants to hit back at the world that wouldn't stop hitting him. Make sense that he would be affected by an inarguable act of self sacrifice and kindness. It shows that the world isn't quite as vicious as he thought, which was his whole motivation.It feels like such is too much to hope for. It honestly does.

And, yet, that's what Hope is all about. :smallsmile:

Flying Turtle, may your words be so.

---

Also, may Minrah be resurrected after this- and be booted out of the Temple and Dwarven community like Durkon was.

(I'm serious, although I hope it won't be as acrimonious and bitter as Durkon's experience was.)

Why? Because a dwarf that valiant dying in the line of duty deserves her second chance- to level up more as a cleric via adventure and come back justly as badass!

(I can say "badass" in these forums, right?)

[Rutskarn]

People guessing that Durkon's trying to make Durkula have a change of heart--I have a different theory. Bit out there, but bear with me:

Durkula can't make inferences. That's what Durkon learned earlier; that Durkula, being a creature of evil who has little experience with human life, can't really put two and two together when it comes to human psychology and behavior.

Note that in the last panel, Durkula doesn't look smug--he looks reserved. That's not because Durkon is showing him the value of human life and compassion; that's something he straight-up can't understand.

It's because he's suspicious.

Why would she raise them from the dead? There has to be an angle. She had to have gotten some kind of leverage. She must have extracted some benefit that Durkon can lean on now to spoil his plans. He's going to be cagey and alert and not want to proceed, because the idea that she'd raise them from the dead simply out of compassion doesn't connect with his alien psychology.

[AutomatedTeller]

I think if I was Rich, I'd name 1129 The End, just to mess with people.

TPK. Wow.

Still not sure how this plays out - I guess there are clearly some dwarves coming through the door pretty soon, but I don't really see how Durkon showing Durkula the memory is going to mess with him.

But my not seeing it is part of the fun :) Bravo, Rich!

I mean, I know the order is going to survive. I have no idea how, which is what is cool.

that said, it's not actually a TPK - only Minrah has x's. Everyone else is just unconscious. Maybe the dwarves come in and do a couple of mass cure light wounds?

[knag]

This is a pretty extreme situation. Extreme situations call for...

BLOODFEAST THE EXTREMINATOR!!!

[KorvinStarmast]

Roy and Durkula already had a whole discussion on free will back at the Godsmote. And during that Durkula revealed that he doesn't care about Hel's plan. He just wants to hit back at the world that wouldn't stop hitting him. Make sense that he would be affected by an inarguable act of self sacrifice and kindness. It shows that the world isn't quite as vicious as he thought, which was his whole motivation. Hmm, interesting angle.

As to the strip, besides a sincere Thank You, Giant!:

(1) nice interleaving of the panels to show parallel things going on.
(2) the art style and use of color is a real eye pleaser.
(3) Hmm, died of poison gas? While dwarfs are often resistant to poison/have high saves for stuff like that, I suppose that miners are not PC's so they'd succumb quickly enough to a serious gas leak ... and they look like the five from the flashbacks, so someone made a prediction nicely on that one ..
(4) Nice job Roy doing what has to be done.
(5) Belkar knocked out; hmmm. Mr Scruffy is the last one left standing. (A rabbit out of the hat that I can think of is Bloodfeast Extreminator, but I am not sure how that happens if it does)
(6) Does Durkula vamp some of the order? All of the order? Only Belkar since Belkar has a serious hate undead/not like Durkula thing going.
(7) Second to last panel, Kudzu has a sad face on, I think he's looking at Elan. Not sure.
(8) Last panel: Kudzu is looking back at Ponchella, with what looks like a sad or puzzled face.
(9) Poor Minrah. :( (Maybe that is who Kudzu is looking at with the sad face)

[Rockphed]

Wow! Just..... Wow.

Also, look how sad Kudzu looks! And is that Future High Priestess Rubyrock?

Thanks, Rich!

I'm fairly certain that that is Rubyrock. Rubyrock is also the one who praised Thor when Sigdi's child survived.

[Resileaf]

I expected Roy to eventually lose in the last thread. But damn, I didn't expect him to manage to beat his entire team sans V. He's really powerful to manage to beat three people that are presumably higher level than he is.
I expect the next page to be about Durkon and Greg discussing what the memories Durkon just showed all mean, and the thread that connects them. Greg was obviously blindsided, so it seems highly likely that Durkon will push it.

Also, poor Minrah. She tried so hard, despite her low level.

[Alish]

Maybe my eyes are going bad but Greg does not seem all that happy he beat the order. Maybe he is about to have a change of loyalties?

I would have never dreamed he could have one, but the alternatives are:

i) Hilgya snapping up from her Domination (folks that know d&d: is that possible, and if so, how probable?)

ii) A deus ex machina, but introducing Sigdi to the present timeline seems a bit cheap, since she was only seem in Durkonks recollections. And who else could be the deus ex machina? Julio cannot fly the Mechane in here. Readcloak has no veritable way of learning about Hel’s plan, and he is probably still at Kraagor’s gate anyway.

[DaggerPen]

If I had to guess, I’d say it’s related to the vampire telling Durkon that “Hel made me to perfectly fit the hole in your heart.” I think that might be its weakness. Durkon’s banishment is the moment when his sense of duty was not just tested, but completely overthrown. And it’s that sense of injustice that is the seed for the vampire.

Only…Durkon didn’t abandon his sense of duty after being cast out. Because he still essentially believed in it, and the reason he did was because he saw how his mother’s sense of duty informed her choices, how she’d used all the money she had to help some people who had no one else, and how, upon being resurrected, they paid her back not by repaying her expenses, but by becoming her new family unit she thought she’d lost when her husband died.

She resurrected them out of a sense of duty to Thor, they became her family out of a sense of duty to her, and out of this mutual sense of obligation came a meaningful, permanent connection that helped give Durkon such a happy, supportive childhood, and allowed him to become a cleric of Thor. Durkon could never abandon his sense of duty, because he himself is the proof of what can be created by these convictions.

And that’s why I think he wants to tell the vampire this. If the vampire was made to fit the hold in Durkon’s heart, it makes sense that he would be particularly susceptible to the things Durkon uses to fill that hole.

This has been my theory as well, but I love how you phrased this.


Also, just wanted to note that I'm totally having a delayed teary reaction to this comic. Just... holy crap. I was a proponent of this theory before this strip (though not the originator), but actually seeing it in action is just unspeakably touching. This is the kindest, noblest thing I've ever seen in this comic, as well as in most works of fiction.

[Thurulian]

Squeeky is a bard so maybe he is about to come in with a song of freedom and some mass cure light wounds. Minrah got totally wrecked first the stabs from Belkar then she gets blinded and then burned to death, conclusion hanging around the order is bad news for most people.


Okay so everything aside i have a wierd theory what if Kudzu actually has some sort of hidden power or something i dont think he could be a proxy for loki but maybe he could be a blessed child or something with godly protection.

[Alish]

Aslo, am I the only one that was afraid of someone else getting vampirized when I saw the title of this comic?

[factotum]

He's really powerful to manage to beat three people that are presumably higher level than he is.

Vampires get a level adjustment of +8, so the guys who made the game believe all the extra toys a vampire gets are worth that many extra class levels--which makes them very powerful, yes. Also, Durkula is not alone, the Order had to waste time blasting through a lot of basic spawn before they could turn their attention to the big guys, and he still has two presumably high level vampire clerics at his disposal.

[Snails]

People guessing that Durkon's trying to make Durkula have a change of heart--I have a different theory. Bit out there, but bear with me:

Durkula can't make inferences. That's what Durkon learned earlier; that Durkula, being a creature of evil who has little experience with human life, can't really put two and two together when it comes to human psychology and behavior.

Note that in the last panel, Durkula doesn't look smug--he looks reserved. That's not because Durkon is showing him the value of human life and compassion; that's something he straight-up can't understand.

It's because he's suspicious.

Why would she raise them from the dead? There has to be an angle. She had to have gotten some kind of leverage. She must have extracted some benefit that Durkon can lean on now to spoil his plans. He's going to be cagey and alert and not want to proceed, because the idea that she'd raise them from the dead simply out of compassion doesn't connect with his alien psychology.

I admire your precise reasoning here.

[Hypothetical]

Mr. Whiskers is still standing. Vampukon is screwed, that's one mean feline.

[Resileaf]

Vampires get a level adjustment of +8, so the guys who made the game believe all the extra toys a vampire gets are worth that many extra class levels--which makes them very powerful, yes. Also, Durkula is not alone, the Order had to waste time blasting through a lot of basic spawn before they could turn their attention to the big guys, and he still has two presumably high level vampire clerics at his disposal.

I was talking about Roy, not Greg. Roy beat Belkar, Haley and Elan even though he was underleveled compared to them because of his time spent dead.

[Coolio Wolfus]

Wonder if Hylgya is a decendant of Aunt Shirra? (The blonde dwarf on the left of the 5)

[Kish]

isn't smiling, if that means anything.
What means much more, is that he just said "Cannae." Durkon's accent. That vision did something. Whether it will do anything that helps the Order...well, we'll see.

[Sloanzilla]

Maybe if vampires are created by your worst memory, some sort of positive thing is spawned via your best memory (in this instance- being proud of his mom).

[Windscion]

Besides Scruffy and the dominated Hilgya there's Kudzu.
Right, and we know Kudzu is a high-level cleric since he was able to turn all those vampires! [/s]

My money's still on Durkon* insta-vamping the wrong member of the order. Belkar, whose reasons for wanting to stab D* are unconnected with anything "good". V, whose worst memory is likely about failing, and losing, her family, and who is therefore not likely to be down with D*'s plans.

re: Family. Even if Durkon's family & friends arrive, what can they do? Without lots of potions, none of them are clerics to heal up the order, only one is known to have combat training.

re: Priestess? Not the same HPoT had darker hair w/ red tints.

[fishhead202]

What means much more, is that he just said "Cannae." Durkon's accent. That vision did something. Whether it will do anything that helps the Order...well, we'll see.

Where? Am I missing it? The third frame from the end is in the memory, if that's what you're referring to.

[Rockphed]

What means much more, is that he just said "Cannae." Durkon's accent. That vision did something. Whether it will do anything that helps the Order...well, we'll see.

Durkon's corpse does not speak outloud on this page. The only thing he says is, "What... Why would she? Why would anyone?"

[Keltest]

What means much more, is that he just said "Cannae." Durkon's accent. That vision did something. Whether it will do anything that helps the Order...well, we'll see.

He did? When did he do that?

[Kish]

Ah, my mistake. That was Flashback-Durkon in robes. Never mind.

[WhatAreWeDoing?]

Thor's bollocks! Three updates in 7 days. At this pace, they'll be disassembling Xykon's bony hind quarters before Halloween.

[Turin_19]

Normal vampires “rest” for three days before spawning, right? That’s the “refreshing” moment (that Malack references) where they absorb memories and probably “get used” to the mind and body.

But, Durkula did not have this time. Is it possible he ends up suffering some kind of confusion that literally affects him?

[Honest Tiefling]

My money's still on Durkon* insta-vamping the wrong member of the order. Belkar, whose reasons for wanting to stab D* are unconnected with anything "good". V, whose worst memory is likely about failing, and losing, her family, and who is therefore not likely to be down with D*'s plans.

This sounds hilarious. Belkula seems like a great way to dismantle Hel's plans...With a single murder hobo. How many DnD campaign worlds have been shattered by one? And this one will be rescued by one.

[King of Nowhere]

Just a small art nitpick: one of belkar's daggers in the last panel look like a pencil.

awesome comic, of course, but there wasn't need for me to say that

[Snails]

I was talking about Roy, not Greg. Roy beat Belkar, Haley and Elan even though he was underleveled compared to them because of his time spent dead.

Belkar, Haley, Elan: Their character concept seems to include them being very effective against mooks and 2nd tier bosses, but not so directly effective against top shelf combatants in a straight fight. This was demonstrated by Tarquin kicking Belkar useless, Tarquin breaking Haley's arm, and Tarquin fending Elan off with wit and a dagger on the rooftop. There are other examples.

In the OotSverse, such trumps whatever D&D mechanics we might use to model these characters. If pressed, I will just handwave and say Roy has surprisingly high HP, AC, and Saves for his level due to lucky stats and the right items, and that wins out in a toe-to-toe fight.

[Resileaf]

Just a small art nitpick: one of belkar's daggers in the last panel look like a pencil.

awesome comic, of course, but there wasn't need for me to say that

It's not a dagger, it's a stake he carved before they arrived at Firmament some time ago.

[Calmen1]

Grats to all the people who called Sigdi raising her friends from a dishonorable death.

Not exactly. It were 5 strangers....

[Resileaf]

Belkar, Haley, Elan: Their character concept seems to include them being very effective against mooks and 2nd tier bosses, but not so directly effective agains top shelf combatants in a straight fight. This was demonstrated by Tarquin kicking Belkar useless, Tarquin breaking Haley's arm, and Tarquin fending Elan off with wit and a dagger on the rooftop. There are other examples.

In the OotSverse, such trumps whatever D&D mechanics we might use to model these characters. If pressed, I will just handwave and say Roy has surprisingly high HP, AC, and Saves for his level due to lucky stats and the right items, and that wins out in a toe-to-toe fight.

It's still three people he fought off all at once. Much like Tarquin fighting exceedingly well against the order in just about every appearance, Roy is showing to be a very impressively skilled warrior.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Welp, there it is. Unless Lurkon has an incredibly improbable change of heart right now, or someone powerful bursts in to save the party right now, the world is done and everyone on it is dead. Full stop.

That being said, I don't actually think we're headed for a downer ending, but it's vanishingly hard to imagine how the author can save them now. And with the story continuing somehow, if the Order got so thoroughly and utterly curbstomped by a handful of vampires, I have no idea how they're plausibly going to handle an epic-level sorcerer lich, his probably-epic-level-by-now Death cleric ally, and his presumably high-level beastmaster guide.


My money's still on Durkon* insta-vamping the wrong member of the order. Belkar, whose reasons for wanting to stab D* are unconnected with anything "good".

(6) Does Durkula vamp some of the order? All of the order? Only Belkar since Belkar has a serious hate undead/not like Durkula thing going.

My personal suspicion is also that Belkar's "take his last breath ever" moment is imminent and it will constitute vampirization, not death, as a means to turn the tables on Lurkon and his minions. But such ideas have been pooh-poohed by the resident forum hardcores before.


Maybe if vampires are created by your worst memory, some sort of positive thing is spawned via your best memory (in this instance- being proud of his mom).

Like a Patronus? Or it could be matter-antimatter style mutual annihilation. The vampire is a creature of pure negative energy. What's the purest positive energy there is? Selfless love.

[Peelee]

A couple of folks have cited back, but I thought this one was particularly apt http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1088.html as it's where Durkon credited each of those people with an aspect of his training.

Well that's interesting. Bearded Logann (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1088.html), and I'm guessing un-bearded Logann (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1128.html).

ETA: Nope, in wrong. And if I hadn't had a crazy long thing to deal with between when I wrote that and posted it I would have realized a while ago.

[pendell]

I hadn't spotted it until mentioned here: Yes, I'm pretty sure that the bard Hoskins was one of the five raised by Durkon's mom's generous gift. Good for her!

It also occurs to me that five characters could make an adventuring party. Be nice if they came running in to save the day, as Malack saved the day with "Teatime" awhile back.

You might almost say they were angels saving the day.

And since they were rescued from Hel...

then that would make their group ... Hel's angels?

I'll see myself out.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Kish]

I hadn't spotted it until mentioned here: Yes, I'm pretty sure that the bard Hoskins was one of the five raised by Durkon's mom's generous gift. Good for her!

It also occurs to me that five characters could make an adventuring party. Be nice if they came running in to save the day, as Malack saved the day with "Teatime" awhile back.

You might almost say they were angels saving the day.

And since they were rescued from Hel...

then that would make their group ... Hel's angels?

I'll see myself out.

Respectfully,

Brian P.
Unfortunately, I doubt that will happen because if the the flashback led to "Mom's friends are about to attack you," Durkon would be glad Greg was unprepared for it, rather than warning him.

[jidasfire]

Sad to see the Order fall here, but I guess they never really had a chance. I've suspected for awhile, given the nature of the various troubles in this arc that everything that needed solving would have to be solved, one way or another, by Durkon. Durkon himself could probably bust up these vampires with almost no trouble with turning and holy magic. He could save poor Minrah, he could cure the evil disease Hel cast on his friends. I don't fully see how yet, but Durkon's display of his mother's sheer selflessness (which certainly ties into his own) seems to have affected Durkula. The quiet dwarf who lets his friends have the spotlight is going to win the day here, and I can't wait to see how.

But you know, maybe I'm wrong, and it'll really be Scruffy and Bloodfeast. I'd be all right with that too.

[2D8HP]

This sounds hilarious. Belkula seems like a great way to dismantle Hel's plans...With a single murder hobo. How many DnD campaign worlds have been shattered by one? And this one will be rescued by one.


Just in case it becomes a "thing", I just want to get in on using the name "Belkula" (not "Bella", down auto-correct! Down!) bandwagon before it becomes popular.

Also, the Belkster has always seemed like the most PC like of the Order (it's easy to imagine Belkar's player) and that totally seems like something a player would do ("Don't railroad my character").

Also don't underestimate the power of Kudzu's cry.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Well that's interesting. Bearded Logann (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1088.html), and I'm guessing un-bearded Logann (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1128.html).

It's Logann's mother who was resurrected, would be my estimation. The then-dead dark-skinned miner woman in #1128 has pins or clips in her hair. So does the woman next to Logann (he is wearing a grey cap) in #1088. Not sure if we have ever heard her name, though.

[Quebbster]

Well that's interesting. Bearded Logann (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1088.html), and I'm guessing un-bearded Logann (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1128.html).
It's Logann's (as yet unnamed) mom. Logann is Durkon's age.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0962.html for reference.

Also, worth pointing out that the dinner parties were on Wednesdays, and it's currently Tuesday, so a surprise interruption is unlikely.

I wonder if everyone switched occupations after the accident or if it was just Squeaky?

[Knaight]

It's Logann's (as yet unnamed) mom. Logann is Durkon's age.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0962.html for reference.

Also, worth pointing out that the dinner parties were on Wednesdays, and it's currently Tuesday, so a surprise interruption is unlikely.

I wonder if everyone switched occupations after the accident or if it was just Squeaky?

That linked strip shows one of them walking in with a pickaxe slung across their back, which suggests that at least one stayed a miner.

[Jasdoif]

I wonder if everyone switched occupations after the accident or if it was just Squeaky?Shirra moved on to silver mining. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0983.html)

[Verappo]

Wow.

The only thing I can think of at this point is that, should Durkon be given the chance to decide whether to get resurrected, he would probably refuse so that poor Minrah can survive.

Just so the story can be even sadder. Dwarves do what they must 😔

[Kish]

Just in case it becomes a "thing", I just want to get in on using the name "Belkula" (not "Bella", down auto-correct! Down!) bandwagon before it becomes popular.
Let the record state that if "Belkula" ever becomes nearly as popular as calling Greg a certain name (that alas is not Greg), then I will take to calling Vampire Belkar Bella.

It's not going to come up, because Belkar's not going to be a vampire.

Wow.

The only thing I can think of at this point is that, should Durkon be given the chance to decide whether to get resurrected, he would probably refuse so that poor Minrah can survive.

Just so the story can be even sadder. Dwarves do what they must 😔
Minrah was killed in battle and is being welcomed into heaven by Thor even as we post. It would fit the story he just told better if Durkon demanded the resurrecting cleric pick a random stranger who just died of disease or accident instead, but that seems unlikely to happen. For one thing, it assumes someone somehow will ask him before resurrecting him; if they cast Resurrection and he chooses not to come back, it simply wastes the diamonds and no one gets resurrected for them, and he knows that even more directly and empirically than the rest of the Order.

If his duty compels him in the matter of his resurrection, it will be that he realizes he has to come back, destroy Xykon, and be a father to Kudzu, even though Thor is holding the door to Celestia open for him and he'd really rather go through it.

[brian 333]

I was talking about Roy, not Greg. Roy beat Belkar, Haley and Elan even though he was underleveled compared to them because of his time spent dead.

Yeah, fighters are awesome.

The munchkins constantly complain about Sorcers and Clerics being overpowered. Outside of certain scenarios, they aren't.

Fighters are usually considered little more than meatshields. They can be so much more.

Once upon a time, (early in our implementation of 3rd ed.) My group had a long discussion about relative power between classes. It was assumed that spellcasters were the ultimate damage dealers.

We ended the argument with a multi-session tracking experiment in which we recorded how much aggregate damage characters were inflicting, and fighters won. By a lot. It wasn't even close.

That didn't satisfy tbe advocates of sorcerers being OP, so we playtested 1v1 scenarios. Again, fighters won. By a lot.

Bards are notoriously weak in combat, as are arcane casters. Fighters beat the snot out of them easily.
Rogues aren't much better, and arcanists are hardly a speedbump; if the fighter survives round 1, chances are really good that they win easily. The only single class that comes close to being able to go toe to toe with a fighter is a cleric, and he'd better be buffed before they start.

So I find Roy's ability to quickly take out a bard and a rogue to be right in line with the results of many dice-rolling experiments.

[Synesthesy]

I now expect one of two things:

1 durkula doesn't understand what Sigdi did, and this make him afraid, so he leaves without wasting time killing the order. But this means we'll get another fight scene, or a deus ex machina.....

2 something happen so that Durkon and Durkula spirit merge, so Durkon will actually evolve, maybe even staying undead, denying Hel's plan and saving the day (while releasing his spawns, that will simply go away). This would mean that the arc is (almost) done.

Remembering Giant's words about how long he prepared Durkon's vamp act, I expect some sort of evolution of our favourite dwarf... And this would explain why Hel cared about og Durkon inside his minion's head even if he shouldn't be able to do anything....

[brian 333]

Let the record state that if "Belkula" ever becomes nearly as popular as calling Greg a certain name (that alas is not Greg), then I will take to calling Vampire Belkar Bella.

It's not going to come up, because Belkar's not going to be a vampire.

I never got the Greg reference, if it is indeed a reference, so I've never used it.

Why Greg? Should we call the vampire often referred to as Ponchula Cindy?

[fishhead202]

I never got the Greg reference, if it is indeed a reference, so I've never used it.

Why Greg? Should we call the vampire often referred to as Ponchula Cindy?

It was in the strip a while back as a joke.

[Resileaf]

I never got the Greg reference, if it is indeed a reference, so I've never used it.

Why Greg? Should we call the vampire often referred to as Ponchula Cindy?

The name Greg comes from this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1030.html) in which the group suggests a bunch of names for vampire Durkon so as not to call him Durkon all the time.

[Kish]

Why Greg? Should we call the vampire often referred to as Ponchula Cindy?
Excellent idea. Cindy it is!

[tsj]

I am convinced that mr scruffy has been deceiving us this whole time.. he is actually a powerfull level 40 wizard that is disguised as a cat... and now he strikes

[Aenghus]

As for how the OotS get out of this one, I expect to be surprised.

One thing could be significant/ Durkula's been left literally holding the baby, a baby he agreed not to hurt. I think Kuzdu will be a bone of contention for the vamps.

[brian 333]

The name Greg comes from this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1030.html) in which the group suggests a bunch of names for vampire Durkon so as not to call him Durkon all the time.

Okay. I recall thinking at the time that was a reference to some currently popular vampire fiction that I had not read or seen. I feel really dumb now. And that on top of how dumb I already feel about the other big miss I made that was shown today.

You know, I must have a previously unrealized masochistic streak in me because I absolutely love being wrong about what Mr. Burlew is going to draw next. I need to find my local Ponch... umm, Cindy, and do a little roleplaying to find out.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Wow. Just wow. Obviously, this is either going to be Roy gaining a new power from his sword to remove domination via deus-ex-machina or reinforcements that the vamps have no chance of beating appear.

[Ruck]

Welp, there it is. Unless Lurkon has an incredibly improbable change of heart right now, or someone powerful bursts in to save the party right now, the world is done and everyone on it is dead. Full stop.

Bet you ten gold pieces that doesn't happen.


Not exactly. It were 5 strangers....

Five strangers who didn't become friends with Sidgi until right before Durkon was born (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0991.html).


If I had to guess, I’d say it’s related to the vampire telling Durkon that “Hel made me to perfectly fit the hole in your heart.” I think that might be its weakness. Durkon’s banishment is the moment when his sense of duty was not just tested, but completely overthrown. And it’s that sense of injustice that is the seed for the vampire.

Only…Durkon didn’t abandon his sense of duty after being cast out. Because he still essentially believed in it, and the reason he did was because he saw how his mother’s sense of duty informed her choices, how she’d used all the money she had to help some people who had no one else, and how, upon being resurrected, they paid her back not by repaying her expenses, but by becoming her new family unit she thought she’d lost when her husband died.

She resurrected them out of a sense of duty to Thor, they became her family out of a sense of duty to her, and out of this mutual sense of obligation came a meaningful, permanent connection that helped give Durkon such a happy, supportive childhood, and allowed him to become a cleric of Thor. Durkon could never abandon his sense of duty, because he himself is the proof of what can be created by these convictions.

And that’s why I think he wants to tell the vampire this. If the vampire was made to fit the hold in Durkon’s heart, it makes sense that he would be particularly susceptible to the things Durkon uses to fill that hole.


People guessing that Durkon's trying to make Durkula have a change of heart--I have a different theory. Bit out there, but bear with me:

Durkula can't make inferences. That's what Durkon learned earlier; that Durkula, being a creature of evil who has little experience with human life, can't really put two and two together when it comes to human psychology and behavior.

Note that in the last panel, Durkula doesn't look smug--he looks reserved. That's not because Durkon is showing him the value of human life and compassion; that's something he straight-up can't understand.

It's because he's suspicious.

Why would she raise them from the dead? There has to be an angle. She had to have gotten some kind of leverage. She must have extracted some benefit that Durkon can lean on now to spoil his plans. He's going to be cagey and alert and not want to proceed, because the idea that she'd raise them from the dead simply out of compassion doesn't connect with his alien psychology.


I now expect one of two things:

1 durkula doesn't understand what Sigdi did, and this make him afraid, so he leaves without wasting time killing the order.

I think we're onto something here, although I'm still not quite sure which possibility is right:

A)Durkula gets confused and begins to have some kind of change of non-heart;
B)Durkula gets suspicious and abandons his plans in a panic.

My only other thought, for A, is that the answer to Durkula's question "Why would she...? Why would anyone?" is "Because of your mistress." That information might trigger some kind of change in him; again, I don't exactly know what/how.

For B, even though I've said before that Durkon made this plan well before Hilgya arrived on the scene, I think if Durkula panics he might do something that breaks her domination. (And since she knows exactly what abjurations are on Kudzu-- who presumably hasn't been targeted for any kind of dispel-- she knows what she can cast to take down the vampires without risk of harm to the baby.)


Unfortunately, I doubt that will happen because if the the flashback led to "Mom's friends are about to attack you," Durkon would be glad Greg was unprepared for it, rather than warning him.

Yeah, I think this too, which is why I think the reveal is going to be more about how Durkula reacts to it than the cavalry coming in to save the day.


Let the record state that if "Belkula" ever becomes nearly as popular as calling Greg a certain name (that alas is not Greg), then I will take to calling Vampire Belkar Bella.

It's not going to come up, because Belkar's not going to be a vampire.

Agreed, but if Belkar gets vamped somehow I'm going with "Drakkar Noir."

Also, is it just me, or does Roy seem to be a lot less damaged than he was after Haley sneak-attacked him? Is he really down or just playing possum in a situation where he doesn't really have a way to attack the remaining vampires?

[Grey Watcher]

Any known characters among the resurrected miners? The 'I can't believe it' guy looks kind of familiar.

It took me a moment, but that's Uncle Squeaky. And the other four are the rest of the Sigdi Recurring Dinner Party. She didn't just help bring them back from the dead, she adopted them as family.

I... Wow.

[Kashem]

Wow. Kudos to the "Five resurrections" people.
So at this point, the entire order is down, plus Minrah is dead. Worth noting though that None of the actual order is deceased, at least not yet.
So, really, the only character on the order's side in any way is Hilgya, and she's still dominated.

So, the problem is that the vamps have no desire to keep the order alive for any reason. Actually, they'd probably want to Vamp them. So the order has to get away or win, and in current condition, they sure don't seem to be getting away.
I see two routes:
First is Durkon's whole "Family" showing up. That being basically 6 families worth of people now, and they Deus Ex Machina the scene. I find this unlikely.

Second is Hilgya breaking Domination, and throwing a single "Mass Cure Moderate/Serious/Critical wounds", wakes up the entire party (short Minrah) and kicks the snot out of the remaining vamps. That would make for a whole new fight. I think that's where my money is. Depending on how it is seen, it could be argued that in the OotS universe, being KO'd would remove dominated status.
Could even be that Hilgya was faking domination (somehow?) the whole time, and the party got into this state pseudo-on purpose in order to learn Greg's plan.

[brian 333]

Also, is it just me, or does Roy seem to be a lot less damaged than he was after Haley sneak-attacked him? Is he really down or just playing possum in a situation where he doesn't really have a way to attack the remaining vampires?

His sword glowed green, which appears to heal him. I have no idea of the limits on that, whether three times per day for 300 HP or unlimited full heals, or whatever.

[Calmen1]

Amazing comic.

So, let´s list the alternatives:

"Ex-Machinas":

- The "raised family" appears to help Durkon.
One of them taught Durkon to hold a shield and hammer but they probably are not great fighters. Maybe Hylgia knows one of them and that helps if the domination... but that is a stretch. Also, they were common miners without a family, while Hylgia was high society. Maybe they just bring someone to help.

- Odin´s guys and other
It would be a great waste of amazing narrative.


"Change´s of hearts"

-Durkula
He really seems like it. He is suprised. The whole point of "Durkon´s plan" is that Durkon realized Durkula couldn´t connect dots along memories. So, what Durkon did? Well, he showed a lot of memories that showed the importance of Durkon´s families and only in the end showed how the family came to be Durkon´s family. Also, Sigdi did all this to avoid 5 dwarves to go to Hel, so Durkula might rethink all this. I mean, Hel plan is to destroy the world so all dwarves will die an unhonored death and go to Hel, right?

But I wouldn´t bet in a straight line change of heart. Maybe this will disturb so much Durkula that he loses his cool, say or do something that gets Hylgia out of the domination.

- Other Vamps
Yeah, because they were so developed in the previous comic that it would make a lot of sense.

Hylgia
Kudzu wasn´t the "undomination" factor. Yet.

Also, Hylgia has her own plan about escaping Hel. Maybe just "following orders" is against her nature.

[Calmen1]

Depending on how it is seen, it could be argued that in the OotS universe, being KO'd would remove dominated status.

Not true... It happened with Thann, when Belkar had to disguise as Lord Shojo to break Thann out of the domination, after being knocked out.

[Ionathus]

Oh, no.

Oh, oh no.

This has taken a shocking turn from what I was expecting. I am on the absolute edge of my seat.

And kudos to the Giant. This last scene has been among the best, if not the very best, of the entire story for me. So many threads coming together. The Durkon inner narrative blending seamlessly with the battle. Brutal moments in the fight. So much drama being thrown around. And a terrifying conclusion to the battle.

The absolute edge of my seat right now.

[Ruck]

His sword glowed green, which appears to heal him. I have no idea of the limits on that, whether three times per day for 300 HP or unlimited full heals, or whatever.

Just going by the art and the marks on him, it appeared to heal all the damage, and the damage he's showing now is less than the damage he was showing after Haley sneak-attacked him.

[Yendor]

I think we're onto something here, although I'm still not quite sure which possibility is right:

A)Durkula gets confused and begins to have some kind of change of non-heart;
B)Durkula gets suspicious and abandons his plans in a panic.

My only other thought, for A, is that the answer to Durkula's question "Why would she...? Why would anyone?" is "Because of your mistress." That information might trigger some kind of change in him; again, I don't exactly know what/how.


I think key to this is that these are the people who made Durkon who he is. Were it not for the threat of Hel claiming them, there'd be little incentive to raise them, and Durkon would have grown up a completely different person. Greg may claim to be Durkon's worst day, but he owes his very existence to Sigdi's act.

[AutomatedTeller]

btw - 37 dead in a mining accident, all of whom are going to Hel, except for the 5 that Sigdi raises. Why would any dwarf be a miner, anyway? It's dangerous and can result in a horrific afterlife.

[Doug Lampert]

It was established in an earlier strip that paying for spell components is considered a donation. Sigdi talks about not getting her arm regenerated and something along the lines of not being able to "afford the donation the high priest would require".

I'm not at all sure of that. Regenerate has NO MATERIAL COMPONENT COST!

Thus, her being unable to afford the donation for regenerate can't be because she can't afford the components.
Edited to add: Nor can the cost being called a donation in any way prove that the components are a donation.

Spellcasting services have a cost, caster level * spell level * 10 GP, which is a minimum of 910 GP for regenerate. THAT'S the donation, the money the cleric or the church gets to keep, not the cost of components.

[Ruck]

btw - 37 dead in a mining accident, all of whom are going to Hel, except for the 5 that Sigdi raises. Why would any dwarf be a miner, anyway? It's dangerous and can result in a horrific afterlife.

It's not a lock that they're going to Hel; the others had family to claim them and it's possible the family members raised them.

[Kashem]

Just had an additional thought: We still don't know why Sigdi didn't want Durkon to hear the story of how his father died. If the whole extra part of it was that she had 5 people raised soon after, how could that possibly reflect poorly upon her? Why would she not want Durkon to know?

There could be more to this reveal than we have had.

[ChamHasNoRoom]

I should probably stop reading strip by strip. Having a pause between seeing the Order defeated and continuing to read just makes it obvious that of course they aren't really going to lose.

Also, I don't know why we're angry at autocorrect today. "Bella" is the perfect name for vampire Belkar.



Once upon a time, (early in our implementation of 3rd ed.) My group had a long discussion about relative power between classes. It was assumed that spellcasters were the ultimate damage dealers.

It's weird to me that fifteen years after 3.5 was released people still think that direct damage spells have anything to do with caster supremacy.

[Rockphed]

Just had an additional thought: We still don't know why Sigdi didn't want Durkon to hear the story of how his father died. If the whole extra part of it was that she had 5 people raised soon after, how could that possibly reflect poorly upon her? Why would she not want Durkon to know?

There could be more to this reveal than we have had.

Because she didn't want him to, as stupid children do, hold her raising them over their heads.

[Snails]

Once upon a time, (early in our implementation of 3rd ed.) My group had a long discussion about relative power between classes. It was assumed that spellcasters were the ultimate damage dealers.

We ended the argument with a multi-session tracking experiment in which we recorded how much aggregate damage characters were inflicting, and fighters won. By a lot. It wasn't even close.

Yes, the kind of scenarios where Fighters shine comes up at lot in real life gaming sessions.

So while there exists good theorycrafting tier arguments that have logical merit, whether they are relevant at all to how much fun your players will have at your table is highly ambiguous.

It is quite possible for a PC to be underpowered on paper and still be more fun, because the meager abilities that he has keeps putting the PC in the limelight where he can do what he does well enough to win glory.

[Derian]

new comic is up.

MINRAH, NOOOO!

Curse you Greg! Curse you Ponchella!

...the memory seems to have been effective, though. Self-sacrifice; the one thing that Greg can't understand as part of his nature.

[Talion]

Assuming that the theory that this revelation doesn't spawn some sort of 'anti-vampire' in Durkon's mind, or some other change of heart, my 2 copper theory goes something like this:

1. The memory ends here, with Durkula confused and possibly alarmed. As per their agreement, Durkon doesn't elaborate on the memory or its implications by not speaking. Since those are his soul's thoughts, and not its memories, Durkula is left with these feelings.

2. This, possibly in conjunction with a sensation of frustration for Hel missing out on those five souls, and the Order being effectively neutralized, Durkula and company leave in a rush without actually finishing the party off. At least not entirely. There will probably be objections to this.

3. Durkula, with all speed, seeks out Sidgi to demand an explanation.

4. It is at this point that the Order is rescued by any number of people (most likely of the dwarf variety) and does its best to recuperate in preparation for the council meeting. Naturally, they assume Durkula will make that his priority.

5. Sidgi tries to connect with her vampire son, and her explanation either just confuses/infuriates Durkula all the more, or causes him to re-evaluate his priorities.

6. If he doesn't have a change of heart at this point, its possible that around this time Durkon's "Family" shows up to help with dinner preparations...only to cue into a battle with a vampire (though I don't foresee that ending well on their part).

7. All the same, its enough of a ruckus to get more and more dwarves involved, which would leave him (and his group) bogged down dealing out death and destruction (and draining their remaining spell slots) while the Order deals with the council vote proper. They are surprised, and partially relieved, that most of the heavy hitting vampire clerics aren't there at the time.

8. By whatever means, the Order is able to get the vote to go in their favor, and moves to join with the rest of the town, and the remaining clergy of Thor, to overwhelm the remaining vampires with sheer numbers if nothing else. Cue a lot of funeral pyres and possibly a resurrection or two.

Idk how much sense any of this makes since I'm low on sleep, but there's my overall crackpot theory all the same.

[Kish]

Walking away and leaving the Order alive just because he's confused by something unrelated to them would be, in my opinion, implausibly stupid and not-cruel of Greg. He's obviously not going to kill them, but I don't think that'll be the reason.

[HandofShadows]

I think Kudzu is going to have something to do with the Order surviving. I hope they survive... :smalleek::smalleek::smalleek:

[zimmerwald1915]

Also, is it just me, or does Roy seem to be a lot less damaged than he was after Haley sneak-attacked him? Is he really down or just playing possum in a situation where he doesn't really have a way to attack the remaining vampires?
Roy was healed to full in the first panel by his sword. He was very quickly marked up again by Elan and Haley, so it's hard to notice.

My guess is he is indeed playing possum, probably waiting for an opportunity to feed Vaarsuvius a potion like he's been wanting to do for several strips.

[2D8HP]

...Should we call the vampire often referred to as Ponchula Cindy?


Excellent idea. Cindy it is!


Right.

Ponchula/Ponchola/Ponchella/Ponchette/Dark Lady of the Poncho/Cindy.



It works!

[Sienar]

Um... isn't she literally standing right next to Logann?

Hmm, yes, yes she is. The spotlight was on Cousin Logann and I didn't take a close look around him.

[Lissou]

So, er... Did the other 32 dead people go to Hel? :smalleek:

[SilverCacaobean]

Rich certainly picked the perfect place to up the update rate. These last pages keep getting better and better.

Greg is unusually quiet about his victory.

And... I knew it that Minrah would die, god damn it.

[Giscard76]

Once again the Order of the Stick proves it is it's own worst enemy...

[AutomatedTeller]

I should also say that, while I do not for a second believe the Order is done...

It does really suck to see them all laid out unconscious and beaten. Makes you wonder how they are going to take on Xykon and Redcloak, or, really, how they beat them before.

[Snails]

So, er... Did the other 32 dead people go to Hel? :smalleek:

They had families, so that they plausibly could have been Raised. It is probably not polite to ask whether or not the victim's clan is too cheap to live in grinding poverty for the sake of giving one member a second chanced to avoid Hel. Victims without families are definitely not going to be Raised.

[DavidSh]

Roy has fewer linear wounds on him now, but he does have visible charring on his face from the flamestrike, As does Minrah.

[Resileaf]

I just realized the bench continues outside of the panels.

[Kish]

So, er... Did the other 32 dead people go to Hel? :smalleek:
Probably. Welcome to the essential brutal unfairness of the dwarf system.

[Ruck]

Roy was healed to full in the first panel by his sword. He was very quickly marked up again by Elan and Haley, so it's hard to notice.

My guess is he is indeed playing possum, probably waiting for an opportunity to feed Vaarsuvius a potion like he's been wanting to do for several strips.

Yeah, I noticed the healing, which is why I think he's playing possum; he seems to be less damaged now than he was before his sword healed him, and if he tries to do anything at this time he'll probably be lit up again by a Flame Strike or something else. He can't attack them in the Anti-Life Shell, and even if he could get to Vaarsuvius with a potion, he'd just be setting them up to both get blasted as soon as he did.

[Fyraltari]

Oh god, this is incredible.

Congratulations on those who guessed the gems were used to save the Dinner Party.

No wonder Thirden didn't tell the whole truth to Durkon, would you have the guts to look a child in the eye and tell him his father is dead so that you can live.

And it looks like Greg is beginning to understand.

Prediction time:
Next comic Ponchula (and the last other vampire) will close in for the kill all while talking about how close that was and her plans for future evil, mixed wwith the dicussion inside Durkon*'s mind where Greg will ask why Sigdi didn't use the money to bring Tenrin back instead and Durkon will explain. Then at the last moment when Ponchula is leaning on Roy Greg will call a flame strike to kill the vampires. Next comic he'll use the potions to heal Roy and tell him that as far as he's concern the entire Dwarven race can go to Hel but he doesn't want Sigdi to and that's why he's switching sides. The Exaargh will serve as the final boss of this arc (he still has plenty of spells) as his monomaniacal obsession with things behaving as they should will make him go livid at Greg's betrayal. From then on I see two ways this folds out. Either Greg sacrifices himself so that Durkon can be resurrected or (in my opinion the better path) he and Durkon reaches the same agreement as Ponchella and her host had but Good: Durkon will serve as Greg's conscience as he journeys towards Goodness secure in the knowledge that his place in Walhalla is secure (I guess Greg starts worshipping rocks in this scenario) and Durkon* decides to give himself a new name. Bonus points if Greg tells Roy he intends to bacpack across Tartarus once this is done and if he chooses the name Hurak Thundershield.

No idea about how they resolve the Hilgya situation in both cases.

Also, farewell, Minrah, you did your part in saving the world and your people even though you were wholly unprepared for it. May you feast forever in Walhall of the 640 Gates in the seat that your friend Sandstone kept for you.

Now, off to see how many people said all this before me! :smalltongue:

[Sloanzilla]

The dwarves are too good for their gods

[ti'esar]

I cannot believe that we've seen the memory, and it was even something people had already called, and yet there's still no way for me to be sure how this is actually going to be Durkon's trump card.

I really hope Minrah doesn't stay dead, but I can see this one going either way. :smallfrown:


Just had an additional thought: We still don't know why Sigdi didn't want Durkon to hear the story of how his father died. If the whole extra part of it was that she had 5 people raised soon after, how could that possibly reflect poorly upon her? Why would she not want Durkon to know?

There could be more to this reveal than we have had.

She raised them instead of his father.

[Calmen1]

2. This, possibly in conjunction with a sensation of frustration for Hel missing out on those five souls, and the Order being effectively neutralized, Durkula and company leave in a rush without actually finishing the party off. At least not entirely. There will probably be objections to this.


Maybe Durkula will reason that leaving the party there to die is better than killing them. If they are killed, they go to Valhala. If they were left there to die in the end of the world, they go to Hel. But Durkula can argue that while hiding that his is having a change of heart...

[Talion]

Unrelated to my prior rambling, I am left with one particular question: how is it that they happened to have at least 5 Resurrect spells prepared that day? They could have a couple of scrolls, sure, but is it also possibly church doctrine to have that specific spell prepared en masse, in part due to Hel's wager?

[Kish]

I really hope Minrah doesn't stay dead, but I can see this one going either way. :smallfrown:
I think most likely she will. In the plus column, her afterlife is in no doubt at all.

[Sloanzilla]

Theoretically, if one high level cleric - with a HUGE bag of diamonds- survives to the creation of the next world, could she raise dead any other higher level clerics who died due to the world's destruction- and then they could slowly work their way through all 10 million dwarves and restore all of them?

[Peelee]

Oh god, this is incredible.

Congratulations on those who guessed the gems were used to save the Dinner Party.

No wonder Thirden didn't tell the whole truth to Durkon, would you have the guts to look a child in the eye and tell him his father is dead so that you can live.

well, I certainly don't see how that follows. Even assuming True Res is applicable, it doesn't take several days to cast.

[Ruck]

Unrelated to my prior rambling, I am left with one particular question: how is it that they happened to have at least 5 Resurrect spells prepared that day? They could have a couple of scrolls, sure, but is it also possibly church doctrine to have that specific spell prepared en masse, in part due to Hel's wager?

Raise Dead, not Resurrection, and yeah, that explanation makes enough sense to me not to sweat it.

[Ionathus]

So, er... Did the other 32 dead people go to Hel? :smalleek:

I wouldn't be surprised if at least some of them had families too poor to afford Raise Dead, especially considering they were laborers in a mine.

While that's a hard fact, I feel it makes Sigdi's story even more powerful. She couldn't save all 37, but she saved the ones she could. And then she got a second chance at family out of it. It's a really heartening moment in a really horrible situation.

[skim172]

I don't think we're going down the path of "evil villain has sudden change of heart, priorities, goals, and personality due to a single revelatory moment." The Giant generally avoids that.

I think this is Durkon's personal subplot reaching its climax - he's been chaining his memories in order to show Greg his response to "You are who you are on your worst day": a powerful denial of that assertion.

While it may not be an act that physically defeats Greg, it is Durkon's moral and personal victory. No matter what Greg says, he hasn't broken Durkon and he never will.

As to how it might help the Order ... no idea. It's certainly confusing to Greg to see firsthand this extraordinary act that defies his cosmic worldview. That hesitation might provide the Order a bit of a chance - especially if Sigdi appears in person.

[Kish]

Theoretically, if one high level cleric - with a HUGE bag of diamonds- survives to the creation of the next world, could she raise dead any other higher level clerics who died due to the world's destruction- and then they could slowly work their way through all 10 million dwarves and restore all of them?
Sure, if the gods dumped all the corpses in front of her.

But I suspect, even if one cleric could Plane Shift back from Thor's realm or something like that, none of the bodies of those killed in the previous world's destruction would be kept around for the next one.

(Then, as soon as she landed on the Prime Material Plane again, Greg would Plane Shift in from Hel's domain to attack her, and soon the new Church of Hel would have another cleric. And a huge bag of diamonds.)

[Resileaf]

Maybe Durkula will reason that leaving the party there to die is better than killing them. If they are killed, they go to Valhala. If they were left there to die in the end of the world, they go to Hel. But Durkula can argue that while hiding that his is having a change of heart...

The Hel deal doesn't apply to non-dwarves. Every other creature goes to the plane that fits their alignement.

[Honest Tiefling]

The dwarves are too good for their gods

To be fair, drunken womanizing (and possibly manizing) Thor might be a step up from some official gods. No misplacing of children, no creating the Nine Hells, no moronic deals with demons (not devils, demons. And a demon prince specializing in a particular brand of ick, no less!), no letting of devils taking of souls...

And when you get down to it, making godlings with NG goddesses will probably result in more good aligned gods.

I think two possible reasons Sigdi never told Durkon are that it was either too painful for her to relive the memories, or she didn't want to explain why he wouldn't want to come back. I mean, you could possibly condemn someone to Hel if they don't die in honorable combat again. having Durkon (and possibly herself) never see her husband again unless they wish to condemn themselves might be a hard topic to broach.

Or the hair wasn't his. I mean, I don't think dwarves have been the best of not getting random beard hair everywhere.

[Austin's Dad]

My 10-year old figured it out as soon as he read the strip:

Strip 1107, Panel 6, last line.

(Yes, I do know how to insert hot-links, but if you really want it, he wants you to work a little more. 10-year olds can be like that. ;) )

[Kish]

To be fair, drunken womanizing (and possibly manizing) Thor might be a step up from some official gods.
[...]
I don't think anything you're saying relates to what Sloanzilla was talking about--the system where innocent dwarves are sent to eternal torture because of a drunken bet.

I could be the one who's reading them wrong.

[happycrow]

No Deus Ex Machina required.

If Durkula is created to be the anti-Durkon, and every fiber of Durkon's being is loyalty and devotion to the Gods no matter what the personal cost

.... what's Durkula's loyalty to Hel?

[Flying Turtle]

People guessing that Durkon's trying to make Durkula have a change of heart--I have a different theory. Bit out there, but bear with me:

Durkula can't make inferences. That's what Durkon learned earlier; that Durkula, being a creature of evil who has little experience with human life, can't really put two and two together when it comes to human psychology and behavior.

Note that in the last panel, Durkula doesn't look smug--he looks reserved. That's not because Durkon is showing him the value of human life and compassion; that's something he straight-up can't understand.

It's because he's suspicious.

Why would she raise them from the dead? There has to be an angle. She had to have gotten some kind of leverage. She must have extracted some benefit that Durkon can lean on now to spoil his plans. He's going to be cagey and alert and not want to proceed, because the idea that she'd raise them from the dead simply out of compassion doesn't connect with his alien psychology.

My problem with this is while Durkula is almost certainly suspicous of Sigdi's motives (his outlook on lie practically demands it) I don't see why he would view it as a threat to him and begin to panic. As others have pointed out, if Durkon's family was going to show up, warning Durkula with the memory is the last thing he'd want to do. Also keep in mind he made Durkon agree to play no more memories after this one. If anything he should be feeling pretty confidant right know.

But let me ask you two questions:

What sounds more like Durkon, tricking his opponent with a lie of omission or trying to convert his opponent to his side with a story about the good in the world.

What sounds more like Rich, solving a conflict with a solution so obvious that the villain themselves points out how obvious it is (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1121.html) or setting that up as a red herring so he can introduce a different twist in which he undermines the entire concept of evil races.?

[Peelee]

No Deus Ex Machina required.

If Durkula is created to be the anti-Durkon, and every fiber of Durkon's being is loyalty and devotion to the Gods no matter what the personal cost

.... what's Durkula's loyalty to Hel?

Pretty big, since he's done a whole helluva lot for seemingly no reason if he has no loyalty to her.

Anyway, Evil isn't the same as Anti.

[SilverCacaobean]

I just realised, Durkon must have been planning this for a long time, longer than I thought. He must have been planning this since he first started showing Greg his memories with these people. Now Greg finds out they were random strangers his mother raised to escape Hel.

[Resileaf]

Something else of note is that Durkon himself doesn't seem any bothered by the Order's defeat. He reacted very strongly at Kudzu being used as a shield, but the vampires' victory doesn't even faze him. He must be really confident that his plan is working.

[Calmen1]

I wouldn't be surprised if at least some of them had families too poor to afford Raise Dead, especially considering they were laborers in a mine.

While that's a hard fact, I feel it makes Sigdi's story even more powerful. She couldn't save all 37, but she saved the ones she could. And then she got a second chance at family out of it. It's a really heartening moment in a really horrible situation.

It is a dwarven society. Mining is quite important, I guess.

[TRH]

My problem with this is while Durkula is almost certainly suspicous of Sigdi's motives (his outlook on lie practically demands it) I don't see why he would view it as a threat to him and begin to panic. As others have pointed out, if Durkon's family was going to show up, warning Durkula with the memory is the last thing he'd want to do. Also keep in mind he made Durkon agree to play no more memories after this one. If anything he should be feeling pretty confidant right know.

But let me ask you two questions:

What sounds more like Durkon, tricking his opponent with a lie of omission or trying to convert his opponent to his side with a story about the good in the world.

What sounds more like Rich, solving a conflict with a solution so obvious that the villain themselves points out how obvious it is (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1121.html) or setting that up as a red herring so he can introduce a different twist in which he undermines the entire concept of evil races.?

Well, maybe that's the thing. Durkon's family isn't going to show up, but Durkon hopes to bluff Greg with the idea that they will. He's not just suspicious of Sigdi's motives, remember, but Durkon's, as well. So building up towards another "It's Teatime" seems like exactly the conclusion Greg would reach, missing the real point of what Durkon was trying to get across.

[TheStranger]

Well, there's half of my prediction! If 1129 features the Order of the Dinner Party kicking in the door, I'm going to start buying lottery tickets.

[Sloanzilla]

I don't think anything you're saying relates to what Sloanzilla was talking about--the system where innocent dwarves are sent to eternal torture because of a drunken bet.

I could be the one who's reading them wrong.

Yeah, what Kish said.

[tyckspoon]

Unrelated to my prior rambling, I am left with one particular question: how is it that they happened to have at least 5 Resurrect spells prepared that day? They could have a couple of scrolls, sure, but is it also possibly church doctrine to have that specific spell prepared en masse, in part due to Hel's wager?

They would have been regular Raise Deads (only spell level 5 instead of 7), and while it's probably unusual to need that many at once it's not like there's much else for a non-adventuring cleric to fill their slots with.. hmm. Well, ok, it's unusual, since that'd require almost the entire 5th level slot allotment for a high-level cleric, and there are other spells in decent competition there; you might want a Break Enchantment, Atonement, or Commune on hand as well, and filling a higher-level slot with Raise Dead puts it in competition with Heal and Greater Dispel Magic for non-adventuring magic. I'd probably put a marker on 'The Giant is handwaving the rules on this one' if it came to it.

[Mordar]

Sad to see the Order fall here, but I guess they never really had a chance. I've suspected for awhile, given the nature of the various troubles in this arc that everything that needed solving would have to be solved, one way or another, by Durkon. Durkon himself could probably bust up these vampires with almost no trouble with turning and holy magic. He could save poor Minrah, he could cure the evil disease Hel cast on his friends. I don't fully see how yet, but Durkon's display of his mother's sheer selflessness (which certainly ties into his own) seems to have affected Durkula. The quiet dwarf who lets his friends have the spotlight is going to win the day here, and I can't wait to see how.

But you know, maybe I'm wrong, and it'll really be Scruffy and Bloodfeast. I'd be all right with that too.

While I am really disappointed that the Order had a solid plan that really seemed to play well to their assets they got wiped while only clearing the trash mobs. I think I know some of the whys (in summary, Durkon's book, and all)...and after the number of times they have seat-of-the-pants into victory it is karmic that they have bad luck ("saving throws"...or even just the one for Hilgya) undo their chance for success with a good plan. But still, the messaging seems to be Fighter College is a waste of time, go live the Bard life, if you will.

But even if the Order had won the fight, didn't we kind of know that this had to be a Pyrrhic victory? Durkon returning to the homeland was supposed to cause great destruction, right? Perhaps someone could recap the prophecy that got him kicked out and help clarify things.

As such, my big question is "What prevents Hel's plan to influence the dwarven council vote from working?" I think the only thing we can be certain of is that the vote doesn't go her way. The follow up question is how does that happen in such a way to bring death and destruction upon Durkon's people that doesn't include all of them heading to Hel?

Assuming Roy and most/all of the rest of the Order manage to get out of this alive, they either have to be rescued in a way that will still lead to massive casualties for the dwarves or left behind by Durkon. I guess that means I'm leaning towards them being left behind, and somehow the council vote being saved from Hel's tampering. No clue how though...

- M

[TRH]

They would have been regular Raise Deads (only spell level 5 instead of 7), and while it's probably unusual to need that many at once it's not like there's much else for a non-adventuring cleric to fill their slots with.. hmm. Well, ok, it's unusual, since that'd require almost the entire 5th level slot allotment for a high-level cleric, and there are other spells in decent competition there; you might want a Break Enchantment, Atonement, or Commune on hand as well, and filling a higher-level slot with Raise Dead puts it in competition with Heal and Greater Dispel Magic for non-adventuring magic. I'd probably put a marker on 'The Giant is handwaving the rules on this one' if it came to it.

There could be more than one cleric of an appropriate level, or it could have taken more than just one day to do it. They didn't finish raising everyone in the scenes we saw. As Durkon himself, put it, the dead don't get any more dead if you wait 8 hours.

[Honest Tiefling]

I don't think anything you're saying relates to what Sloanzilla was talking about--the system where innocent dwarves are sent to eternal torture because of a drunken bet.

It was a joke, since official gods have sorta maybe accidentally helped create the Nine Hells and so forth. I guess you can't be a DnD god without holding onto the Idiot Ball for a few centuries. I assumed that he meant that the dwarves were too good and too devoted for Thor, Lord of Drunken Binges, but I could be wrong.


My 10-year old figured it out as soon as he read the strip:


Thor has probably made sillier things than a baby into a cleric. What does prevent clerics from casting 9th level spells, experience? Experience...Points? Baby needs to bust out some really good roleplaying.

[Lord Of Mantas]

:smallfrown: Damn. I liked Minrah.

Also, Roy, this sort of thing is why Durkon didn't come get you back at Girard's gate. If you got your butts kicked this hard when you had the advantage going in, there is no way you could have beaten Malack.

[KorvinStarmast]

Agreed, but if Belkar gets vamped somehow I'm going with "Drakkar Noir."
Belkar Biterleaf; Vampire. First movie he stars in is the remake of Love at First Bite

[Leewei]

The last few comics have been a reminder to past DMs that left a bad taste in my mouth. I'm looking forward to this arc wrapping up.

Roy and team plan out and manage to nearly triumph over a group of nasty undead. Except a volley of (mostly) dispel magic somehow knocks down every spell effect on the group, despite the maximum +10 level bonus on most of the spells being cast. The Orders' casters are well into the teens; those dispels are way too effective.

The vampires' dominate ability seems to outright ignore the saving throw when being told to perform acts against their nature. (Belkar gets a pass here.) More generally, the Order's fortunes with Will saves has been shockingly poor.

Regardless of the geekery, we're in a situation where fate/drama has overwhelmed the best efforts of the good guys. In short, they're no better off now than if they'd run in with no plan whatsoever.

This is pretty excusable as the ser-up for a redemption story, but still, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.... is his Ma. She fought heroically, was maimed, donated to keep complete strangers out of Hel's hands, saw to Durkon's upbringing, and in the end, died in a way unfit for Valhalla.

But, what if the shade controlling Durkon is literally the shape of this hole? As in, Hel has taken the fallen soul of Sigdri Thundershield, and with vicious irony remade her into the undead core of a vampire? Durkon's ploy all of a sudden has a very different meaning. He's now trying to persuade his possessor not only to save the world, but to seize the chance to redeem herself - and him - by going down in battle against the few remaining allies they have.

[Calmen1]

While I am really disappointed that the Order had a solid plan that really seemed to play well to their assets they got wiped while only clearing the trash mobs. I think I know some of the whys (in summary, Durkon's book, and all)...and after the number of times they have seat-of-the-pants into victory it is karmic that they have bad luck ("saving throws"...or even just the one for Hilgya) undo their chance for success with a good plan. But still, the messaging seems to be Fighter College is a waste of time, go live the Bard life, if you will.

But even if the Order had won the fight, didn't we kind of know that this had to be a Pyrrhic victory? Durkon returning to the homeland was supposed to cause great destruction, right? Perhaps someone could recap the prophecy that got him kicked out and help clarify things.

As such, my big question is "What prevents Hel's plan to influence the dwarven council vote from working?" I think the only thing we can be certain of is that the vote doesn't go her way. The follow up question is how does that happen in such a way to bring death and destruction upon Durkon's people that doesn't include all of them heading to Hel?

Assuming Roy and most/all of the rest of the Order manage to get out of this alive, they either have to be rescued in a way that will still lead to massive casualties for the dwarves or left behind by Durkon. I guess that means I'm leaning towards them being left behind, and somehow the council vote being saved from Hel's tampering. No clue how though...

- M

How many dwarves are already dead because of Durkula? I guess a lot. The Exarchula is probably killing and vamping a lot of them.

[Kish]

It was a joke, since official gods have sorta maybe accidentally helped create the Nine Hells and so forth. I guess you can't be a DnD god without holding onto the Idiot Ball for a few centuries. I assumed that he meant that the dwarves were too good and too devoted for Thor, Lord of Drunken Binges, but I could be wrong.
You're still fixating on irrelevancies (drunken binges) and not addressing the bet and resulting afterlife situation.

[Rockphed]

They would have been regular Raise Deads (only spell level 5 instead of 7), and while it's probably unusual to need that many at once it's not like there's much else for a non-adventuring cleric to fill their slots with.. hmm. Well, ok, it's unusual, since that'd require almost the entire 5th level slot allotment for a high-level cleric, and there are other spells in decent competition there; you might want a Break Enchantment, Atonement, or Commune on hand as well, and filling a higher-level slot with Raise Dead puts it in competition with Heal and Greater Dispel Magic for non-adventuring magic. I'd probably put a marker on 'The Giant is handwaving the rules on this one' if it came to it.

Or the raise deads were cast the following day.

[Fyraltari]

Normal vampires “rest” for three days before spawning, right? That’s the “refreshing” moment (that Malack references) where they absorb memories and probably “get used” to the mind and body.

But, Durkula did not have this time. Is it possible he ends up suffering some kind of confusion that literally affects him?
I had this theory too but Greg said once that the process takes months normally.

I hadn't spotted it until mentioned here: Yes, I'm pretty sure that the bard Hoskins was one of the five raised by Durkon's mom's generous gift. Good for her!
The Bard's name is "Squeky" Thirden, Hoskin is the one with the red hair.

Also, worth pointing out that the dinner parties were on Wednesdays, and it's currently Tuesday, so a surprise interruption is unlikely.
It's Wednesday morning, the Order reach Firmament sometime near midnight after Durkon said "it be Tuesday".

Excellent idea. Cindy it is!
But that would get confusing with Sandy!

The ball is already rolling, isn't it?

Unrelated to my prior rambling, I am left with one particular question: how is it that they happened to have at least 5 Resurrect spells prepared that day? They could have a couple of scrolls, sure, but is it also possibly church doctrine to have that specific spell prepared en masse, in part due to Hel's wager?
Or Sigdi skipped the part where they patiently waited for the next dawn. It's not like the bodies were going anywhere.

well, I certainly don't see how that follows. Even assuming True Res is applicable, it doesn't take several days to cast.
People's feeling of (survivor's) guilt are rarely rationnal, as are accusations of children. Plus there may have been hope to find Tenrin's corspse for some time.
I'll admit that I had missed the "a few days later", nice of the Church to give her an extended stay.

... what's Durkula's loyalty to Hel?
I would say mostly out of convienience since he clearly intends to look for number one first and foremost and her plans happens to benefit him greatly (and she's willing tpo give him spells).
Then again Durkon was still a Thorite, that dark day in the snow, so maybe his loyalty is genuine. Time will tell I guess.

[WindStruck]

What a wonderful comic!

With all the crazy theories spinning around, who could have possibly guessed that a random tragedy and a sheer act of generosity was the big secret!

And all the ones she raised are literally her friends and family now. It's truly a noble and touching story.

[Rockphed]

The shape of the hole in Durkon's heart is his Ma. She fought heroically, was maimed, donated to keep complete strangers out of Hel's hands, saw to Durkon's upbringing, and in the end, died in a way unfit for Valhalla.

But, what if the shade controlling Durkon is literally the shape of this hole? As in, Hel has taken the fallen soul of Sigdri Thundershield, and with vicious irony remade her into the undead core of a vampire? Durkon's ploy all of a sudden has a very different meaning. He's now trying to persuade his possessor not only to save the world, but to seize the chance to redeem herself - and him - by going down in battle against the few remaining allies they have.

Except that Sigdi is still alive.

[Arkain]

I don't know what color impressed is, but I'm that color now.

[Ruck]

well, I certainly don't see how that follows. Even assuming True Res is applicable, it doesn't take several days to cast.

Maybe there's some confusion here? The money Sidgi spent on raising the Dinner Party Five could have gone to a True Res for Tenrin. Hence, Tenrin stayed dead so that Thirden (and the others) may live.


But even if the Order had won the fight, didn't we kind of know that this had to be a Pyrrhic victory? Durkon returning to the homeland was supposed to cause great destruction, right? Perhaps someone could recap the prophecy that got him kicked out and help clarify things.
"You have a young cleric named Durkon Thundershield in your temple. When next he returns home, he will bring death and destruction for us all."

Personally, I think it's been fulfilled; Durkon has returned "home" (the Dwarven homelands) bringing "Death and destruction for us all" (a vampire cleric with plans to destroy the world and send them all to Hel).


My 10-year old figured it out as soon as he read the strip:

Strip 1107, Panel 6, last line.

(Yes, I do know how to insert hot-links, but if you really want it, he wants you to work a little more. 10-year olds can be like that. ;) )

Kudzu saying "Tunn unn deh! Tunn unn deh!"? I don't understand. If the argument is that Kudzu is secretly a cleric of enough power to drive back the vampires, I'm not buying it.

[Fyraltari]

With all the crazy theories spinning around, who could have possibly guessed that a random tragedy and a sheer act of generosity was the big secret!

You should take a look at the 25,000gp thread.

[Mordar]

How many dwarves are already dead because of Durkula? I guess a lot. The Exarchula is probably killing and vamping a lot of them.

Enough to trigger a prophecy? Not nearly yet, to my mind.

Do we have a definitive, by the way, on the afterlife destination for vampiric minions' hosts (either before or after dusting)?

- M

[Jasder]

"You have a young cleric named Durkon Thundershield in your temple. When next he returns home, he will bring death and destruction for us all."

I originally took home to mean the dwarven lands, and I still do really, but I have now thought it might be interesting if it does mean his home with his mother.

Given this reveal and the confusion it's caused in Greg, maybe he'll decide he needs to go home to have his mother explain why she did it, and then death and destruction somehow follows. Maybe because he doesn't like her answer.

I don't necessarily think that's how it'll go down, but I see it as a possibility now.

[Zonkerbl]

Hollywood narrative logic requires that Durkula *not* be convinced or persuaded by anything Durkon says. There is some point to Durkon's story but it's not going to have any easily predictable effect.

This is Durkon's story arc and Durkon is going to save the day. Somehow. So the TPK is necessary and logical.

I think the five raised friends coming in and saving the day would be too "deus ex machina." No, it's going to be something about Hel and the logic of serving Hel. Not sure what though.

[Honest Tiefling]

You're still fixating on irrelevancies (drunken binges) and not addressing the bet and resulting afterlife situation.

I wasn't really being serious.

Anyway, as for Gregula being Durkon, that's an issue, because he would return to his lands posthumously, so he's dead and that's not him. Then again, I don't really know how spiritual things work in this setting, but one could also argue that Durkon's spirit is still being housed in Durkon's spirit, fulfilling both prophecies already.

[Fyraltari]

Enough to trigger a prophecy? Not nearly yet, to my mind.
I still think at least one of the Creed of Hel is going to stay undead after the Order leaves and vampire infestation will keep haunting the Dwarven Lands for years to come. :smallfrown:

[137beth]

HPoH still really doesn't understand how Serg could be so selfless. And that's about to bite him next page. Somehow.

[Peelee]

Maybe there's some confusion here? The money Sidgi spent on raising the Dinner Party Five could have gone to a True Res for Tenrin. Hence, Tenrin stayed dead so that Thirden (and the others) may live.

True Res has a casting time of ten minutes. The mining accident, and Sigdi's choice to raise the miners, took place days later. She had plenty of time to request Tenrin be raised before she donated to raise the miners.

Fyraltari's comment about survivor's guilt was a good rebuttal, but considering she made her decision pretty darn fast as soon as an alternative popped up, so I don't know if I really believe that without it coming from a dwarf in-comic.

[factotum]

Given this reveal and the confusion it's caused in Greg, maybe he'll decide he needs to go home to have his mother explain why she did it, and then death and destruction somehow follows. Maybe because he doesn't like her answer.

I don't necessarily think that's how it'll go down, but I see it as a possibility now.

So you think Durkon would deliberately confuse the vampire in such a way that it goes after his mother? No. Simply no, he has not done that. Whatever purpose this memory serves, it is *not* the purpose of getting his own mother killed.

[Grey Watcher]

Just had an additional thought: We still don't know why Sigdi didn't want Durkon to hear the story of how his father died. If the whole extra part of it was that she had 5 people raised soon after, how could that possibly reflect poorly upon her? Why would she not want Durkon to know?

There could be more to this reveal than we have had.

Maybe it's just painful for her. She had a chance to bring Tenrin back. To hold him again, to hear his voice again, to allow him to meet his own freaking son. She chose to do the selfless thing. Speaking of the decision again is no doubt painful since it, by its nature, involves thinking of what she gave up. Yeah, all told, it was the right decision, but that doesn't mean it didn't hurt like hell.

[Kish]

But that would get confusing with Sandy!

Don't remember who or what Sandy is, but it sounds vaguely familiar as something that wasn't an official name or anything I was going to use anyway.


Anyway, as for Gregula being Durkon, that's an issue, because he would return to his lands posthumously, so he's dead and that's not him.

Come again?

[Honest Tiefling]

I still think at least one of the Creed of Hel is going to stay undead after the Order leaves and vampire infestation will keep haunting the Dwarven Lands for years to come. :smallfrown:

"This here looks like your standard vampire infestation, we can get a few clerics here, maybe even a few with prestige classes if we're lucky. Until then, we recommend daily consumption of garlic and not letting any virgins letting their necks go bare or having access to balconies for dramatic scenes to be whisked away in."

[Peelee]

"This here looks like your standard vampire infestation, we can get a few clerics here, maybe even a few with prestige classes if we're lucky. Until then, we recommend daily consumption of garlic and not letting any virgins letting their necks go bare or having access to balconies for dramatic scenes to be whisked away in."

Underground, so not terribly standard, I'm afraid.

[LuPuWei]

I...well, that's a hel of a page.

Although, I'm still kind of clueless as to how Durkon thinks it'll affect Durkula.

Maybe Durkon thinks that the impending arrival of his family will sufficiently freak Durkula out so that he leaves before actually killing off and raising the Order...

[fishhead202]

I'm still stuck on what would Greg actually care about. "She blew all that cash? That was dumb. Your friends are dead."

OR

What would have a real-world effect that would only happen if this memory finishes.



I don't understand why Greg would flip sides at all. Nothing has hinted that's a possibility.

[dtilque]

Well, there's half of my prediction! If 1129 features the Order of the Dinner Party kicking in the door, I'm going to start buying lottery tickets.

The problem with that idea is that the Guild of Sigdi's Friends are not high level (probably not even middle level) and have no cleric among them. They'd be no match for three medium to high level vampire clerics.

[Fyraltari]

Don't remember who or what Sandy is, but it sounds vaguely familiar as something that wasn't an official name or anything I was going to use anyway.
Jerkon mocked one of his underling over her namelessness. Since she had sandy hair some forumite tokk to calling her Sandy. You do you.

"This here looks like your standard vampire infestation, we can get a few clerics here, maybe even a few with prestige classes if we're lucky. Until then, we recommend daily consumption of garlic and not letting any virgins letting their necks go bare or having access to balconies for dramatic scenes to be whisked away in."
"This here looks like your standard ... Wait that guy was killed two hours ago, how is he already a vampirAAAARGH" Vassily Griesnievsky, vampire hunter, killed for no reason by a vampire.
I stole that joke.

[Honest Tiefling]

Underground, so not terribly standard, I'm afraid.

For a dwarf, it would be. What, are they going to call upon those tree-loving jerks known as elves for a matter as serious as this!? The trees and the vampires are probably working together!

[Snails]

Maybe it's just painful for her. She had a chance to bring Tenrin back. To hold him again, to hear his voice again, to allow him to meet his own freaking son. She chose to do the selfless thing. Speaking of the decision again is no doubt painful since it, by its nature, involves thinking of what she gave up. Yeah, all told, it was the right decision, but that doesn't mean it didn't hurt like hell.

And child Durkon might rightfully ask by what right did she deny a father to her son when it was well within her means to provide. It is an unanswerable question beyond something like Tenrin was safe from Hel.

So I understand why she might delay such a conversation, until Durkon was mature enough to understand the full weight of her choice from her point of view.

[KorvinStarmast]

Once again the Order of the Stick proves it is it's own worst enemy... I am reminded of a battle with a Vampire back in OD&D/threebrownbooks era. That dratted vampire charm had us fighting each other. The mirror wielding cleric kept the vampire back initially, but let's' say that the battle didn't go well.

They Charm men-types merely by looking into their eyes (treat as a Charm Person spell with a minus 2 for the object's saving throw against magic). Charm person in that edition was quite strong.
If the spell is successful it will cause the charmed entity to come completely under the influence of the Magic-User until such time as the "charm" is dispelled More recent editions reserve that kind of control to Dominate Person, not a first level spell as then. :smallcool:

The dwarves are too good for their gods Interesting take on that relationship.

Ponchella is happy; hubris?
Kudzu is frowning; is it at her?
Durkula is not gloating; that's a bit out of character, so the inner monologue is getting to him.
Loki; is Loki willing to channel divine power through Kudzu (see Austin's suggested remedy up there) to take this scene and move it in a new direction?

[Fyraltari]

Peelee, it's also likely that no-one in the Temple could cast (True) Resurrection (that's what would be need for Tenrin, right?) so she would have had to travel to someplace where someone could (maybe the Dwarven Capital or something).


I'm still stuck on what would Greg actually care about. "She blew all that cash? That was dumb. Your friends are dead."


OR

What would have a real-world effect that would only happen if this memory finishes.



I don't understand why Greg would flip sides at all. Nothing has hinted that's a possibility.
Because 25,000 gp are enough for a Trues Res apprently which would have allowed her to bypass the lack of corpse to get her newly-wed husband and father-to-be back. She sacrificed her last shot at a happy family life for five random strangers, something that Greg can't rationnalize away as being secretly self-serving. Greg also has a look of confusion (and almost distress but maybe that's just me) in the fifth-to-last panel and is not triumphant but lost in thought at the end. What happened with Sigdi right now is more important to him than the fight.

Add to that that in the "dinner party" strip Durkon notices him slipping into the dwarven accent and it might be that Durkon's plan was to make him share his worldview and he timed it so that Greg could not help but contrast Roy's and Sigdi's characters.

[Peelee]

Peelee, it's also likely that no-one in the Temple could cast (True) Resurrection (that's what would be need for Tenrin, right?) so she would have had to travel to someplace where someone could (maybe the Dwarven Capital or something).

Oh, absolutely. It's just she swung towards raising the other ones pretty darn fast if that was her plan. I'd also wonder if nobody around could even cast 7th level spells, since she didn't get her arm Regenerated. Conversely, in the True Res scenario, Sending is a pretty low-level spell, and she certainly had the cash on hand. Getting Tenrin back alive wouldn't take much time, just rejoining would.

[Fyraltari]

Oh, absolutely. It's just she swung towards raising the other ones pretty darn fast if that was her plan. I'd also wonder if nobody around could even cast 7th level spells, since she didn't get her arm Regenerated. Conversely, in the True Res scenario, Sending is a pretty low-level spell, and she certainly had the cash on hand. Getting Tenrin back alive wouldn't take much time, just rejoining would.

Oh I am not saying that was her plan, just that a rebellious teenager may think it should have been.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Holy cow, what an incredible strip. I’m almost tempted to take things panel by panel, there’s so much going on. First, grats to people who called what Sigdi did with her money. This is why I love WMG sometimes, because eventually you’ll get some really good theories. Second, I really do love the parallels between the real life action and the memory action (raising from the dead, “I cannae believe it). Third, MINRAH NOOO :smallfrown:. Fourth, I am quite curious as to what Young Durkon’s full reaction will be. Last, I’m very interested to see what happens to get the Order out of this one. The High Priest of Hel is obviously shocked by Sigdi’s incredible sacrifice, but I doubt he’ll have any tremendous change of heart anytime soon. Will the Order be rescued by Sigdi and co.? Maybe, but I feel like that is unlikely, not only because of the timing issues mentioned, and the relatively low strength of Sigdi and her friends, but also because narratively it means the Order isn’t really doing much to actually win here. Of course, the real kicker would be if we won’t find out what happens for a while down the road, and Book 6 ends shortly after here. :smalltongue:

[Peelee]

Oh I am not saying that was her plan, just that a rebellious teenager may think it should have been.

Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, that makes way more sense.

[Michaeler]

Ponchula/Ponchola/Ponchella/Ponchette/Dark Lady of the Poncho/Cindy.
Short for "sin and die"?

[Austin's Dad]

Thor has probably made sillier things than a baby into a cleric. What does prevent clerics from casting 9th level spells, experience? Experience...Points? Baby needs to bust out some really good roleplaying.

I think the key is the intensity of Kudzu's current emotional state, and a baby's inability do do anything other than go nuclear when upset. It may be that Kudzu's magical outburst will only be strong enough to free Hilgya, but then she takes over.

One thing is for certain: The Giant doesn't do lame Deus Ex. He crafts his situations very carefully - that's why his stories are so awesome.

The Dinner Party, Mr. Scruffy, Bloodfeast the Extreminator, and any members of the Order are powerless outside of the anti-life shell. The only ones in the shell are the vampires, Durkon's soul (who is imprisoned), Hilgya (who is dominated)...

...and Chekov's nuclear weapon (who is sitting on Greg's lap).

[Keltest]

Oh I am not saying that was her plan, just that a rebellious teenager may think it should have been.

Firmament seems to be the base of the Church of Thor, at the very least, possibly the church of Odin as well, if his high priest hangs out there. It seems rather unlikely to me that the capital would have stronger priests available.

[Uniqueorn]

In 991 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0991.html) we learn the story of Tenrin's death, as told by Thirden. How does Thirden know the story? He must have heard it from Sigdi, as he was not present during the fight. So we have not seen any firsthand account of Tenrin's death so far. Is it possible that Thirden idealized the story in order not to hurt Durkon?

Is it possible that Tenrin did not die as a hero (before hitting the wall, he was talking about retreating)? Could he have died as a coward, been sent straight to Hel, leading Sigdi to not wanting to get him back?

And if he is with Hel, could that mean anything to Durkula?

[Fyraltari]

Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, that makes way more sense.
No need to apologize.

Firmament seems to be the base of the Church of Thor, at the very least, possibly the church of Odin as well, if his high priest hangs out there. It seems rather unlikely to me that the capital would have stronger priests available.
Sigdi says that in order to reach the HpoO they'd need to make the trip to the capital. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0983.html)

[Ruck]

Hollywood narrative logic requires that Durkula *not* be convinced or persuaded by anything Durkon says.
How so?


True Res has a casting time of ten minutes. The mining accident, and Sigdi's choice to raise the miners, took place days later. She had plenty of time to request Tenrin be raised before she donated to raise the miners.

Fyraltari's comment about survivor's guilt was a good rebuttal, but considering she made her decision pretty darn fast as soon as an alternative popped up, so I don't know if I really believe that without it coming from a dwarf in-comic.

Aha, right, I guess I was confused. Perhaps it's part of Dwarven duty not to try to resurrect people who verifiably died with honor. Or perhaps some of the other explanations are valid-- survivor's guilt, not having anyone on hand powerful enough to cast True Resurrection, True Resurrection actually not existing in this universe, etc.

[Peelee]

No need to apologize.

The Deep South is like US's Canada.:smallwink:

[Honest Tiefling]

Remember what people said about others not always wanting to come back? What if she was worried her husband would have been upset that she raised him, potentially barring him from returning to Valhalla, and then denied the chance for the miners to do so? The answer may be that she wasn't sure HE would want to come back, but she was sure these five would.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Well done, Giant. Thank you for everything.

[Fyraltari]

The Deep South is like US's Canada.:smallwink:

Isn't that Canada already? :smallwink:

[Wysper]

"You have a young cleric named Durkon Thundershield in your temple. When next he returns home, he will bring death and destruction for us all."

I originally took home to mean the dwarven lands, and I still do really, but I have now thought it might be interesting if it does mean his home with his mother.

Given this reveal and the confusion it's caused in Greg, maybe he'll decide he needs to go home to have his mother explain why she did it, and then death and destruction somehow follows. Maybe because he doesn't like her answer.

I don't necessarily think that's how it'll go down, but I see it as a possibility now.



Pretty Sure Death and Destruction are his domains.

[zimmerwald1915]

Pretty Sure Death and Destruction are his domains.
Based on what?

[Leewei]

Except that Sigdi is still alive.1) Got a link?
2) Even if I'm wrong, please keep spoilered quotes spoilered.

[Fyraltari]

1) Got a link?
2) Even if I'm wrong, please keep spoilered quotes spoilered.

She wasn't mentionned here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html)

[Keltest]

1) Got a link?
2) Even if I'm wrong, please keep spoilered quotes spoilered.

Its not so much that she is alive as she never explicitly died. She was definitely alive when Durkon was exiled, and as of 375 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html) Durkon's grandfather had only passed away within the last year, so unless there was some horrific tragedy off screen between then and now that Durkon doesn't know about, she's still alive.

[Honest Tiefling]

Based on what?

What other domains could Hel have? Evil is possible simply due to her alignment, but I think the only other choice is trickery, and even that is kinda questionable.

[Gift Jeraff]

Maybe Durkon is trying to make the vampire feel guilty about how he's been treating his family (his spawn) like disposable minions.

[Sutremaine]

I don't trust this update schedule one bit. What happened the last time the comic was being updated this quickly?

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I love the wordplay in the title for this one. :smallsmile:

[Kish]

What other domains could Hel have? Evil is possible simply due to her alignment, but I think the only other choice is trickery, and even that is kinda questionable.
If she offers only two domains, she's the only god I ever heard of who offers so few.

Off the top of my head: Death. Destruction. Evil. Either Law or Chaos, depending on her alignment. Hatred. Greed. Decay. Pestilence. Undeath. Dwarf.

(Couldn't find the sources on a couple of those; even if Hatred, Greed, Decay, and Dwarf are all someone's homebrew, though, it's still real unlikely that Hel offers only two domains.)

[F.Harr]

OH, THAT WAS INTENSE! [The last three all read together, just to be clear]

I'm bummed, obviously, but this isn't the end of the story. I hope. I'm just enjoying the intecity!

Man, they REALLY needed to give Durkula his own name.

[Gnoman]

Its not so much that she is alive as she never explicitly died. She was definitely alive when Durkon was exiled, and as of 375 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html) Durkon's grandfather had only passed away within the last year, so unless there was some horrific tragedy off screen between then and now that Durkon doesn't know about, she's still alive.

Less conclusively, Minrah mentions her in 1096 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1096.html). For an acolyte (and thus probably fairly young) cleric to be able to come up with her that quickly, she's probably either really famous or still alive. Granted, her sacrifice here might have made her really famous within the temple, and it is possible that Minrah only knows the name because she's memorized the Wall of Donors, but it is likelier that she's an alive frequent visitor. Also, note the dialog ("I've been lying to his ma" - present tense)in panel 2 of 1097.

[Honest Tiefling]

If she offers only two domains, she's the only god I ever heard of who offers so few.

Well, she has 0 mortal clerics, so...Might have happened. Not like she needed a huge selection for her massive following. Her domains might have been selected for her or related to her worship or another factor we are unaware of. Did we ever get a list of Banjo's domains? Now I wonder how gods in this world GET domains.


Off the top of my head: Death. Destruction. Evil. Either Law or Chaos, depending on her alignment. Hatred. Greed. Decay. Pestilence. Undeath. Dwarf.

Not sure how reliable the wiki is, but she is listed as neutral evil. If that is true, Law and Chaos are out. The rest I believe are domains from supplements, and homebrew is pretty rare in this universe. It's possible she has a homebrew domain, but it can't be most of those as most are probably from Complete Divine or other supplements. I am admittedly too lazy to look it up, but I did check what I think are the standard ones for 3rd edition.

Mentioning copyrighted material would bring back the lawyers. Bringing them into a fight with vampires is both evil and stupid. Well, not for Durkula, then again, they might not help his side very much.

[Mandor]

That's an interesting expression on Greg's face at the end there. Which could mean a few different things.

What I don't get is why the memory disturbed Greg at all. And why he didn't just snort and laugh and press on.
I imagine things will become clearer in the next comic or two.

[Harbinger]

I know this is ridiculously unlikely, but wouldn’t it be cool if Durkula had a change of heart and the rest of the comic he and Durkon were in a situation like Ling and Greed from Fullmetal Alchemist?

In all seriousness though, I think (well, hope) that the direction this is going will be a genuine change of heart/redemption for the vampire. Just because that would fit really well with some of the themes of free will, duty, honor, and self determination that have been set up this arc. Also because a bunch of dwarves showing up to save everyone right now would be super insatisfying narratively, for me at least, because it would remove agency away from the protagonists (especially Durkon). If that’s the twist, it would happen regardless of whether Durkon showed the vampire this memory.

[Ornithologist]

I don't trust this update schedule one bit. What happened the last time the comic was being updated this quickly?

Durkon Died.:frown:

Seriously, I almost broke my monitor the day that strip went up.

[Fincher]

Clearly Banjo is going to save the day.

[Matt620]

I don't recognize the lady on the far left. Is that Shirra?

Also, RIP Minrah. She was everything I liked in a side character.

[Fyraltari]

I know this is ridiculously unlikely, but wouldn’t it be cool if Durkula had a change of heart and the rest of the comic he and Durkon were in a situation like Ling and Greed from Fullmetal Alchemist?

In all seriousness though, I think (well, hope) that the direction this is going will be a genuine change of heart/redemption for the vampire. Just because that would fit really well with some of the themes of free will, duty, honor, and self determination that have been set up this arc. Also because a bunch of dwarves showing up to save everyone right now would be super insatisfying narratively, for me at least, because it would remove agency away from the protagonists (especially Durkon). If that’s the twist, it would happen regardless of whether Durkon showed the vampire this memory.

You are not alone.

[happycrow]

I don't trust this update schedule one bit. What happened the last time the comic was being updated this quickly?

Big dramatic stuff.
You noticed it was a month between and then WHAM WHAM WHAM?

Lull, tension, lull, tension. GITP is smart enough to work his readers with it. :)

[Mandor]

It was established in an earlier strip that paying for spell components is considered a donation. Sigdi talks about not getting her arm regenerated and something along the lines of not being able to "afford the donation the high priest would require".

Plenty of charities give people "gifts" in "appreciation" for their "donation". I think the whole scheme stinks and just give if you want to give because you want to give. Don't call it a donation when it screams "purchase". But would not surprise me if the verbage games find their way into stick-verse either.

[brian 333]

I know this is ridiculously unlikely, but wouldn’t it be cool if Durkula had a change of heart and the rest of the comic he and Durkon were in a situation like Ling and Greed from Fullmetal Alchemist?

In all seriousness though, I think (well, hope) that the direction this is going will be a genuine change of heart/redemption for the vampire. Just because that would fit really well with some of the themes of free will, duty, honor, and self determination that have been set up this arc. Also because a bunch of dwarves showing up to save everyone right now would be super insatisfying narratively, for me at least, because it would remove agency away from the protagonists (especially Durkon). If that’s the twist, it would happen regardless of whether Durkon showed the vampire this memory.

I disagree. Removing agency is not uncommon in fiction.

I know no one here remembers the old cowboy movies, but the arrival of the cavalry was tied to the point-of-view characters having given their all and failed. The cavalry cannot arrive until we've seen the characters give it their best shot.

In LotR, the eagles arrived when the dwarves were about to die. And again at The Battle Of Five Armies. And at Isingard. And on the mountain above Moria. And again at The Gates Of Mordor. And again at Mount Doom. Were any of these instances unsatisfying? In every case the characters had given it their best shot.

Heck, the cavalry literally arrived at the Pellinor Fields. Then again when the ships of the corsairs arrived later that same day.

One major thread running through Durkon's arc is to give and accept help when it's needed. For me, this by itself is foreshadowing enough for the arrival of help in the form of the Dwarven Wrecking Crew.

[Rogar Demonblud]

That was awesome.

With the whole Order out of order, I guess there's not that many ways for them to get out of this:

- Sigdi and friends come to have their dinner party as usual.The dinner parties were held in Sigdi's home. On Wednesday evenings. Not the middle of Tuesday night.

- Hilgya breaks the domination and somehow wins on her own or gets everybody else on their feet. Pretty unlikely.Impossible unless she's given an order that violated her true nature.

- Vamp Durkon is shaken very badly once Durkon explains the scene to him and that causes him to spare the Order, if not to abandon his plans altogether.Durkon's agreement was that he'd show the memory and do nothing else. The vampire may be shaken, but the agreement precludes the rest.

- For completeness' sake: Vamp Durkon is shaken so badly that Durkon actually regains control of his body.Durkon is wrapped in miles of red tape. He's not doing anything.

- Mr Scruffy throws that stake, kills Ponchette, Hilgya's domination is broken and hilarity ensues.Leaving aside the issue of opposable thumbs, dusting a vampire does nothing to break Domination. It just means there will be no new orders, and starts the multi-day clock until the effect lapses normally.

Huh, actually, that might be a reason why Hilgya is left behind after this. She's still under the Domination effect, and after that last Flame Strike Roy is content to leave it that way. She can't take care of an infant in those circumstances, so Kudzu stays with Gramma Sigdi (Mommy too, I guess. She needs to go somewhere.)

Also, if the 'aunts' and 'uncles' show up here, they die. Period. A handful of middle aged dwarves with a few levels in Expert aren't even a speed bump to a spawn, let alone three high-level vampire clerics.

[schmunzel]

I believe they're Sigdi's five friends - Durkon's "uncles" and "aunts" who helped raise him as a child.

From left to right: Shirra (gave Sigdi the dress), Kandro (taught him how to use his hammer and shield), Thirden (told Durkon about his father), the as-yet unnamed aunt, and Hoskin (starred in such films as The Long Good Friday and Who Framed Roger Rabbit).

They're all shown together here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1088.html

And I stupid person left the unnamed aunt out as Logan was named his cousin and I didnt know what to make out of it ...
Of course it was his mother who was Sigdis friend
stupid me


Interesting that the unnamed aunt isn't at Durkon's ordination party. It seems that Cousin Logann is there in her place.

she stands next to him when he credits his helpers :)

sch

[Hardcore]

Panel 2; Roy heals himself COMPLETELY.
Given daggers low damage output, and that Elan didn't get his Dashing Swordsman bonus (no puns), i expect he is not too badly hurt. (of course, what I know of the rules i learned playing Baldur's Gate...)

Prediction: Roy is good at tactics. Now he tries to lure the vampires out from the anti-life shell, using himself as bait.


Edit:I hate auto-correction.

[Rutskarn]

My problem with this is while Durkula is almost certainly suspicous of Sigdi's motives (his outlook on lie practically demands it) I don't see why he would view it as a threat to him and begin to panic. As others have pointed out, if Durkon's family was going to show up, warning Durkula with the memory is the last thing he'd want to do. Also keep in mind he made Durkon agree to play no more memories after this one. If anything he should be feeling pretty confidant right know.

But let me ask you two questions:

What sounds more like Durkon, tricking his opponent with a lie of omission or trying to convert his opponent to his side with a story about the good in the world.

What sounds more like Rich, solving a conflict with a solution so obvious that the villain themselves points out how obvious it is (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1121.html) or setting that up as a red herring so he can introduce a different twist in which he undermines the entire concept of evil races.?

I think the key point is that the "evil" races are disadvantaged, not malicious. They have compassion and care about each other. The whole point of this scene is that this monster DOESN'T understand compassion, because unlike the genuinely disenfranchised goblinfolk Durkula is just a bastard.

Besides this: while Rich's themes very frequently deal with redemption of evil, one of the central points is that evil is DIFFICULT to redeem.

It took hundreds and hundreds of strips AND an outright curse for Belkar, a mortal who travels in the company of good creatures, to learn the virtue of compassion. It took V causing actual genocide and being rejected by the people he loved to overcome his arrogance. And then there's Elan's father--a man whom even the idealistic Elan acknowledges is so intractably corrupt that the idea of him reforming is enough to break him from an otherwise flawless masterclass illusion. That's the author saying that evil people don't become good overnight. It takes more than a willing teacher and a well-chosen lesson to redeem a monster.

Durkon's a compassionate and idealistic soul, but--much more so than Elan--he's not dumb. Standing on the edge of oblivion, he won't preach compassion to a monster that only moments before carelessly threatened an infant in the pursuit of its amoral goal. There's no arc that would cause this thing, which has thus far been entirely alien, vile, and predatory, to suddenly grow a conscience. That's something that's been given to every other evil character redeemed thus far.

[Mandor]

Oh, absolutely. It's just she swung towards raising the other ones pretty darn fast if that was her plan. I'd also wonder if nobody around could even cast 7th level spells, since she didn't get her arm Regenerated. Conversely, in the True Res scenario, Sending is a pretty low-level spell, and she certainly had the cash on hand. Getting Tenrin back alive wouldn't take much time, just rejoining would.

I still think that since Tenrin unquestionably died in full honor, being 100% safe from Hel, Sigdi would never have tried to get a True Res, even if it were available somewhere (which is not necessarily a given). Dwarven culture may greatly scandalize anyone who raises the honorable dead, for that would put them at risk of falling to Hel the next time they die.

[Mordar]

"You have a young cleric named Durkon Thundershield in your temple. When next he returns home, he will bring death and destruction for us all."

Personally, I think it's been fulfilled; Durkon has returned "home" (the Dwarven homelands) bringing "Death and destruction for us all" (a vampire cleric with plans to destroy the world and send them all to Hel).

One could argue that a tough vamp (or even coven of tough vamps) with a fancy staff and *plans* to bring destruction to the dwarven homeland does not meet the needs of prophecy fulfillment. The vamp/vamps would actually need to bring about the destruction and death for everyone. But prophecy is a fickle thing, right? Maybe it is just the intent that is important. Or maybe his prophecy isn't as accurate as the kobold's prophecies. Or maybe it *is* the kind that can be circumvented, and the priests involved should have either killed Durkon in battle (allowing him happy afterlife) or locked him away forever in his homecave.

I'm hoping that isn't the case, and that it better follows the classical example of trying to thwart prophecy only brings about the situation that allows it to be true. Either all the dwarves in the city or all the priests (or perhaps the priests of Thor and/or Odin (depending...Odin's priest spouted it, Thor's priest made the Oedipal mistake)) or some other reasonable version of "for us all" comes to pass.

Of course, that has to happen without the vote going Hel's way...right?

Yes, I totally used that common turn of phrase not as an empty construct to dodge responsibility but in the manner most of us unwashed masses do...to speculate without certainty.


Pretty Sure Death and Destruction are his domains.

Now if he were to convert all of the dwarves to worship of Hel then I agree that this would satisfy the terms of the prophecy.

- M

[Jubal_Barca]

So, I'm not in the let's "give DurkulaGreg a change of heart and make a Good Vampire" camp. Main reason: the general sense in the Giant's work is that alignment changes do not happen fast, and are foreshadowed effectively when they do (see Belkar). Also I think there's a sense that Vampire spirits are inherently evil in a way that e.g. Goblins aren't meant to be in this world - they're a manifestation of negativity. Also I would ultimately really like to see Durkon rip those brain-ties out, headbutt the Vampire in its spiritual face, and then get ready for resurrection. Maybe wishful thinking though...

[Gwynfrid]

This was an absolutely splendid comic on so many levels. Beyond the most obvious ones with the dramatization of both the fight and Sigdi's and Durkon's story, I also want to note another thing this shows us: Roy is now grown into a full-blown hero in the traditional sense. Alone against pretty much everyone including most of his team, he is the last to fall.

... And it also shows that heroes can sometime lose.

[Rockphed]

One could argue that a tough vamp (or even coven of tough vamps) with a fancy staff and *plans* to bring destruction to the dwarven homeland does not meet the needs of prophecy fulfillment. The vamp/vamps would actually need to bring about the destruction and death for everyone. But prophecy is a fickle thing, right? Maybe it is just the intent that is important. Or maybe his prophecy isn't as accurate as the kobold's prophecies. Or maybe it *is* the kind that can be circumvented, and the priests involved should have either killed Durkon in battle (allowing him happy afterlife) or locked him away forever in his homecave.

- M

So you don't agree with Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1098.html) that the prophesy has already been fulfilled?

[Harbinger]

I disagree. Removing agency is not uncommon in fiction.

I know no one here remembers the old cowboy movies, but the arrival of the cavalry was tied to the point-of-view characters having given their all and failed. The cavalry cannot arrive until we've seen the characters give it their best shot.

In LotR, the eagles arrived when the dwarves were about to die. And again at The Battle Of Five Armies. And at Isingard. And on the mountain above Moria. And again at The Gates Of Mordor. And again at Mount Doom. Were any of these instances unsatisfying? In every case the characters had given it their best shot.

Heck, the cavalry literally arrived at the Pellinor Fields. Then again when the ships of the corsairs arrived later that same day.

One major thread running through Durkon's arc is to give and accept help when it's needed. For me, this by itself is foreshadowing enough for the arrival of help in the form of the Dwarven Wrecking Crew.

Regardless of literary precedent, I would find it pretty unsatisfying if Durkon’s memory meant essentially nothing. If the dwarves were going to show up they would do so regardless of whether Durkon showed the vampire his memory, so why bother. It would rob both Durkon and Durkula of character development and agency, which in a story so focused on the results of people’s choices would be disappointing for me. It also seems strange logically that a bunch of dwarves would be so oblivious to the vampire invasion that they wouldn’t even cancel their lunch plans.

Either way though, the Giant is a good writer, and I’m sure he’ll pull it off in a satisfying way.

[Honest Tiefling]

I disagree with you, Harbinger. If Durkon keeps showing Greg/Durkula his memories in a vain attempt to save his child, he is establishing character even if he fails. It has established the character of his own mother as well. Durkula on the other hand, is a character...But not a human one, if you'll pardon my Gnomish. He is a literal embodiment of evil, incapable of love or compassion. His actions can fail just like the actions of the Sapphire Guard, but that doesn't mean they mean nothing. They mean defeat and bravery in the face of overwhelming odds.

Would the comic have been complete without Durkon's last attempt to save his only son, who is a babe in arms? I would argue no, even if it ends in failure, at least we know what Durkon tried to do in that desperate moment.

That, and I'd rather not have the unholy spirit learn the true meaning of friendship in a contrived way. If Durkula is moved by this memory, I am sure that the Giant has something up his sleeve, but this isn't the Carebears.

[Mordar]

So you don't agree with Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1098.html) that the prophesy has already been fulfilled?

I think the "...for us all" part would suggest otherwise...but now I want to see the exact phrase that was used, and I can't seem to locate it. Trusting that the earlier forumite who posted it was accurate, then no, I don't think Roy is right. Vampire Durkon offing a few (dozen) people doesn't seem to reach the proper levels considering a random industrial accident had a similar death toll and all of those that died are damned.

- M

[Sonata Arctica]

I think something completely unexpected will show now, like IFCC taking V. Or maybe Serini revealing she’s still alive