Firt time playing PF, first time playing Rogue ... halp

[Arael666]

Hey there playground, 16 day from now I'm gonna start playing my first pathfinder game with a group of friends. I'm a long time 3.5 player and always tought of PF as "3.5 with a few houserules", boy was I surprised when actully got to reading the PFSRD. Since I was gonna play a new system, I decided to make my experience completely "fresh", and opted to play a class I have never played before, the rogue (I usually play wizards and clerics).

My group tends to focus more on the hack and slash aspect of the game and we certaily fit the in the "practical optimization" category when building our characters. To sum it up, I thought of a build of a melee, sneak attack focused, goblin rogue build and would like the opinion of the playground on it. I have read a few guides and forum posts on what are usually considered good options and this is what I came up with:

(we have access to official 3.5 material, but no dragon mag)

Goblin Rogue

Traits: Color Thief; Reactionary
Archetype: Knife Master

Flaw - Darkstalker
Faw - Weapon Finesse
1 - Skill Focus (Stealth)
2 - Weapon Focus (dagger)
3 - Item familiar
4 - Two Weapon Fighting
5 - Improved Initiative / Craven / Piranha Strike / Measured Response
6 - Jaunter’s Hop / Fast Stealth
7 - Hellcat Stealth
8 - Shadow Strike
9 - Twist Away
10 - Crippling Strike
11 - Underfoot Combat
12 - Confound the Big Folk


This is what I have so far, the feats divided by a "/" are yet to be decided. We are probably starting lvl 3 or possibly more. What do you guys think?

[Eldonauran]

Based on your inclusion of 'flaws' (and 3.5 edition feats), I assume that you are not just playing "Pathfinder" but "3.P". I am not sure running a Pathfinder game for the first time, and allowing 3.5 edition material, is a very wise decision, but then again it is your group. A decision like that is akin to bringing a gallon of gasoline to light a candle.

Anyway, I would direct you towards the Unchained Rogue (http://archivesofnethys.com/ClassDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Rogue%20(Unchained)) instead, as you will find it gives the weapon finesse ability as a class feature (as well as dex to damage just a few levels in). In fact, use that website instead of PFSRD as it doesn't host 3rd party material.

[Rynjin]

First rule of PF: Do not play a Rogue. Ever.

If you want to keep it simple and optimization to a minumum while you learn a new system, play an Unchained Rogue (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/rogue-unchained/) if you must (Rather than a Vivisectionist Alchemist, a Slayer, a Sanctified Slayer Inquisitor, an Investigator, etc.), but never play a Rogue. It's the only class genuinely weak enough that Paizo printed a whole upgraded version of the class (the Unchained Rogue I just linked).

It's literally just the Core Rogue with extra abilities and upgrades added on. No more, no less.

That aside, you seem to have a bunch of 3.5 material I'm not familiar with in there, because some of it I don't recognize and can't find. Darkstalker, Craven, Item Familiar, Confound the Big Folk, and Underfoot Combat (well, I did find that, but it's essentially Ratfolk only; Goblins don't have the Swarming ability). Can't judge how good they are.

Weapon Focus is generally a weak Feat, but can be okay if you think you need the extra attack bonus (remember you get a +1 attack for being Small already though).

Measured Response is generally pretty bad. Statistically you're going to be rolling average damage over time anyway, why spend a valuable Feat slot to guarantee it?

Twist Away is a trap, through and through. Staggered is the kind of condition most Fort saves wish they COULD apply. In the best case scenario you're hit with one of the more impactful debuffs in the game. In the WORST case scenario, you fail your Ref save, eat the full effect of the spell anyway, AND are Staggered on top of it.

You can only take Combat Trick once; you can't get Shadow Strike at 8th since you took TWFing with Combat Trick at 4th (and no, you can't get around it by taking Ninja Trick: Combat Trick due to the Special clause in ninja Trick).

Jaunter's Hop is a 3rd party Rogue Talent; your GM may not allow it. Fast Stealth is pretty meh, consider changing it out.

If you're going hardcore Stealth dude (remember, it really only works to INITIATE combat; it's basiclaly impossible to re-stealth while in combat) take Dampen Presence (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dampen-presence/) so your +30 Stealth isn't completely ignored by creatures with Blindsight/Sense (a surprising number). Also sinc eyou took Hellcat Stealth, Hellcat Pounce (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/hellcat-pounce-combat/) may be worthwhile.

All I have for now.

[Arael666]

Based on your inclusion of 'flaws' (and 3.5 edition feats), I assume that you are not just playing "Pathfinder" but "3.P". I am not sure running a Pathfinder game for the first time, and allowing 3.5 edition material, is a very wise decision, but then again it is your group. A decision like that is akin to bringing a gallon of gasoline to light a candle.

Anyway, I would direct you towards the Unchained Rogue (http://archivesofnethys.com/ClassDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Rogue%20(Unchained)) instead, as you will find it gives the weapon finesse ability as a class feature (as well as dex to damage just a few levels in). In fact, use that website instead of PFSRD as it doesn't host 3rd party material.

Oh, I forgot to add that the DM vetoed unchained and occult classes. Can you elaborate exactly why bringing 3.5 content into pathfinder is a bad idea? I might bring this to the DM's attention, he has played more PF than anyone else in the table but we're all pretty much green

[Arael666]

First rule of PF: Do not play a Rogue. Ever.

If you want to keep it simple and optimization to a minumum while you learn a new system, play an Unchained Rogue (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/rogue-unchained/) if you must (Rather than a Vivisectionist Alchemist, a Slayer, a Sanctified Slayer Inquisitor, an Investigator, etc.), but never play a Rogue. It's the only class genuinely weak enough that Paizo printed a whole upgraded version of the class (the Unchained Rogue I just linked).

It's literally just the Core Rogue with extra abilities and upgrades added on. No more, no less.

That aside, you seem to have a bunch of 3.5 material I'm not familiar with in there, because some of it I don't recognize and can't find. Darkstalker, Craven, Item Familiar, Confound the Big Folk, and Underfoot Combat (well, I did find that, but it's essentially Ratfolk only; Goblins don't have the Swarming ability). Can't judge how good they are.

Weapon Focus is generally a weak Feat, but can be okay if you think you need the extra attack bonus (remember you get a +1 attack for being Small already though).

Measured Response is generally pretty bad. Statistically you're going to be rolling average damage over time anyway, why spend a valuable Feat slot to guarantee it?

Twist Away is a trap, through and through. Staggered is the kind of condition most Fort saves wish they COULD apply. In the best case scenario you're hit with one of the more impactful debuffs in the game. In the WORST case scenario, you fail your Ref save, eat the full effect of the spell anyway, AND are Staggered on top of it.

You can only take Combat Trick once; you can't get Shadow Strike at 8th since you took TWFing with Combat Trick at 4th (and no, you can't get around it by taking Ninja Trick: Combat Trick due to the Special clause in ninja Trick).

Jaunter's Hop is a 3rd party Rogue Talent; your GM may not allow it. Fast Stealth is pretty meh, consider changing it out.

If you're going hardcore Stealth dude (remember, it really only works to INITIATE combat; it's basiclaly impossible to re-stealth while in combat) take Dampen Presence (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dampen-presence/) so your +30 Stealth isn't completely ignored by creatures with Blindsight/Sense (a surprising number). Also sinc eyou took Hellcat Stealth, Hellcat Pounce (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/hellcat-pounce-combat/) may be worthwhile.

All I have for now.

Darkstalker is a better version of dampen presence, it works on every sense except mind sight. Underfoot combat and confound the big folk is a feat combo that allows small and smalled characters fit inside the area of a creature at least two size bigger than yourself and also make that creature flatfooted (thus alowing for full attacks with sneak attacks).

Item familiar is a feat from srd, you can check it online, I got it to make my stealth check very high, ridiculously high in fact.

Craven is feat that adds 1 damage to sneak attack per character level.

I was under the impression that hellcat stealth allowed me to re-stealth during combat anytime I wanted, provided I had a high enough stealth skill.

Thanks for the other pointers, those feats sounded very good on paper and I had no idea I could get combat trick only once.

[Rynjin]

The main thing is after the first round of combat your opponent will be Flat Footed only for the first attack out of Stealth, meaning the rest of your full attack is likely to go Sneak Attack-less unless you're flanking anyway. Making a character flatfooted is of mixed value, since PF generally tends toward BIG DUDES with LOW DEX at higher levels, meaning making them Flat footed doesn't actually lower their AC (so the free Sneak Attack is the only benefit).

You also have to use Stealth as part of a Move action, so you forego any extra attacks you would normally get in most cases as well (with exceptions like Hellcat Stealth, magic items like the Quick Runner's Shirt, or other ways to gain extra Move actions), making it less of a stellar combo than it first appears.

It's an awesome Feat in many ways, but it's mostly awesome in the realm of letting you use Stealth anywhere, any time without set up to get that sweet surprise round (and likely win Initiative, giving you two attacks plus a full attack when they're still Flat Footed from not acting).

[Florian]

Ouch, classic no-go build.

Stealth-based combat just doesn´t work and is way too feat-intensive for what it offers. You use stealth for scouting, spotting ambushes and traps slightly ahead of the party and that's more or less it.

[Firechanter]

Oh, I forgot to add that the DM vetoed unchained and occult classes.

Good on him to ban that Occult powercreep BS, but with Unchained Rogue being off the table, really really do yourself a favour and play anything else, but not a core Rogue. Maybe you've heard how the Monk has been considered woefully underpowered in 3.5? Well, the red lantern has passed to the Rogue in PF. You'll just be frustrated.

[Kurald Galain]

Well if you want a stealth-based rogue, the logical thing to take is Pathfinder's Ninja class. It allows you to go invis as a swift action, at level two. That should serve for all your stealth needs if you also take the anti-blindsense feats at later level.

The PF Rogue (and ninja) have one huge advantage over 3.5, and that is that almost everything can be sneak attacked (whereas in 3E/3.5, huge swaths of creatures such as all undead are immune). PF Rogue is on the weak side, but if you're allowed 3E feats like Craven then you should be fine. Unchained rogue is still better, of course, but its main advantage is dex to damage, and you can cover that with the Agile Weapon enchantment.

[GrayDeath]

Good on him to ban that Occult powercreep BS, but with Unchained Rogue being off the table, really really do yourself a favour and play anything else, but not a core Rogue. Maybe you've heard how the Monk has been considered woefully underpowered in 3.5? Well, the red lantern has passed to the Rogue in PF. You'll just be frustrated.

Sadly that is true.

If what you are aiming for is the FEEL of a Rogue (Sneaky, Dex over Str, small guy that applies debuffing conditions and avoids direct confrontation, lots of SKills) PF offers a lot of other options both first and THird Party. A few have been mentioned already, but let me add that in a few games here, a Stalker (Path of War) often fulfilled a very similar role....but much better.

If its the actual mechanics (Sneak Attack, Talents, etc)....people above have explained why stealthed COmbat is not really good.

If your DM would allow you to build a Race via the Race Builder, see if you can get Invisibility as SLA. With that, Stealth/Invis Combat actually works. But the Rogue is still .... bad.
Unchained in no way makes it more powerful in relation to the other classes, just more playable overall, as its not so much one tricky.

[Florian]

Yeah, the core Rogue is pretty lackluster and a bit overshadowed by the abilities of the Ninja variant.
But for a hack n slash type of game, the only ability that matters is to dual wield and full attack while flanking.

@Firechanter:

Hm? What's up with Occult being power creep?

[Kurald Galain]

Hm? What's up with Occult being power creep?

Yeah, that's pretty weird. All Occult classes are clearly weaker than their Core equivalent (except possibly the Mesmerist) and they're certainly not going to overpower anything if 3.5 material is on the table :smallamused:

[CharonsHelper]

I'll jump in and +1 that if Unchained Rogue is off the table you should probably go with the Ninja alternate class.

There are a few other archetypes of other classes which fit the vibe (like the aforementioned Vivisectionist) but Ninja is the easiest to build.

[Arael666]

I'm gonna go check the ninja then, I thought that was a prestige class not a base class.

While I'm doing that. My whole idea with the character is to be virtually undetectable (except for the mindsight ability, thanks to the darkstalker feat) and use that ability to always get a surprise round and hide even in combat. I mean, when hellcat stealth comes online I'm gonna have a 48 to 53 stealth modifier (+7 from ranks; +4 from race; +4 from size; +3 from skill focus; +3 from class skill; +2 from trait; +25 from item familiar and probably +5 from an item), and this will only gets better as I level up because of item familiar.

I really thought my biggest problems would be actually hitting my enemies (2/3 bab and twf getting in the way) and getting full attack sneak attacks. The first problem would be solved either by getting two brilliant ennergy daggers (yeah, i know) or by ditching the knife master archetype altogether and using Deliquescent Gloves (acid damage), Rod of ice (cold damage) or the gostly arm (untyped damage) from libris mortis to deliver melee touch attacks.

The second problem would be solved by flanking in the early levels and by the underfoot combat+confound the big folk combo, when the feat combo comes online it doesnt matter anymore if I'm hidden or not. Actually, since I don't plan on investing in defensive measures too much, hiding would be used so my enemies cannot target me, thus I only need to have extra move actions to hide after each full attack wich would be acquired with belt of battle (3x a day), Greaves of Aundair (3x a day) and an eternal dorje of hustle. (oh, one thing just popped up, is there a way for me to make stealth checks as an imediate action?)

I guess I should have saind that from the very beggining, this is a better assessment of what I intend to do while in combat, is it still bad? I come from a 3.5 background, so what usually people complain about sneak attacks is that "far too many monsters are immune to it", but that problem almost disappears in pathfinder.

off to check that ninja class

[Kurald Galain]

I guess I should have saind that from the very beggining, this is a better assessment of what I intend to do while in combat, is it still bad?

Well you haven't mentioned starting level yet. If you're starting at level one and your build comes together at e.g. level ten, what are you going to do before that?

BTW flanking is an entirely viable strategy in many parties, and it does give you full attack sneak attack. Partial-BAB classes do not, as a rule, have trouble hitting enemies; indeed, full-BAB classes hit their enemies so well that they usually reduce their BAB via Power Attack... Full BAB + PA is comparable to partial BAB + Sneak Attack.

[CharonsHelper]

Partial-BAB classes do not, as a rule, have trouble hitting enemies; indeed, full-BAB classes hit their enemies so well that they usually reduce their BAB via Power Attack... Full BAB + PA is comparable to partial BAB + Sneak Attack.

They do if they don't have other accuracy boosts - like an Inquisitor's Bane or a Bard's near constant buffing. Especially once they get iterative attacks. A core monk's full attack is often nicknamed "flurry of misses" for a reason.

Full BAB classes also generally have additional accuracy boosts like Rage, Smite, Weapon Training, Studied Target, or Favoured Enemy.

The few full BAB classes without extra accuracy boosts (such as Unchained Monk and most Samurai orders) get much less benefit from Power Attack.

And basically no one should use PA consistently unless they're going two-handed anyway.

[Kurald Galain]

They do if they don't have other accuracy boosts - like an Inquisitor's Bane or a Bard's near constant buffing. Especially once they get iterative attacks. A core monk's full attack is often nicknamed "flurry of misses" for a reason.
That's because the monk is MAD as heck, and the rogue is not; plus AOMF is way more expensive than magic weaponry :smallbiggrin:

Anyway the ninja does have an accuracy boost in the form of its invis, and the u-rogue in debilitating injury.

[CharonsHelper]

That's because the monk is MAD as heck, and the rogue is not; plus AOMF is way more expensive than magic weaponry :smallbiggrin:

Who uses their AoMF for accuracy!? That's crazy talk.

Unarmed monks use their AoMF for boosts (Agile/Flaming/Shocking) and use an Allying cestus for accuracy (you ARE your own ally) shifting its enchancement to their fist/foot.


Anyway the ninja does have an accuracy boost in the form of its invis, and the u-rogue in debilitating injury.

I agree with you on Urogue - but the invis only applies to the first swing each turn (at best - you probably don't have to Ki to use it every turn). And unfortunately, the OP is disallowed from playing Urogue.

[Florian]

@Arael666:

Still taking the completely wrong approach.
1) Only a small subset of monsters is immune to precision damage.
2) Rogues, like Fighters, are all about frontal full attack with no regards to safety. Kill them before they kill you.
3) Want more elaborate tactics, or be able to one-shot, then go shocking grasp Magus.

So, the core Rogue is basically geared towards using some of the most simple tactics and is also effective at it, when you don't try and start overcomplicating the matter, like you do right now.

The Ninja alternative class offers some nifty tricks, but will also make you slightly MAD by using CHA as basis for your small pool of KI points, but otherwise play the same, with maybe the small difference of how you'll invest your WBL. (Practically a mood point, because the main investment will always be into two straight +5 wakizashi/short sword and greater shadow armor)

[CharonsHelper]

hiding would be used so my enemies cannot target me...

Ninjas can do that starting at level 2 if you use your Swift Action to go invisible at the end of your turn. If you haven't already used it you can then 5ft step away to keep them from knowing what square you're in.

[Kurald Galain]

I agree with you on Urogue - but the invis only applies to the first swing each turn (at best - you probably don't have to Ki to use it every turn).

Dip a level into cleric and you do (since you can convert channels into ki pool).

[exelsisxax]

Your DM seems pretty dumb to ban unchained and allow 3.5.

Non-suck alternatives to rogue:

swordsage, investigator, slayer, vigilante.

and if you do more work: alchemist, ranger, magus, inquisitor, and bard.

You can also dumpster dive fighter and swashbuckler if you want to still suck, but suck less hard.

[CharonsHelper]

and if you do more work: alchemist, ranger, magus, inquisitor, and bard.

Don't forget about Brawler (Snakebite Striker archetype)