3.5 Hecatoncheires Range Increment

[RNightstalker]

I'd like to bring out the hundred handed one on some occasion but there isn't a range increment for the boulders listed. Anybody know anything there?

Also, am I missing something or would it also be vulnerable to a dread weapon as well?

I'm curious and want to run it at least once.

[PhantasyPen]

I'm sorry, where is this from?

[Blue Jay]

Hecatoncheires is one of the Abominations from the Epic Level Handbook. It's my favorite epic monster, actually (conceptually, I mean: I've never got to see it in actual play): I especially like the artwork in ELH.

But, I never noticed the lack of a range increment. Maybe just pick your favorite Huge giant, and use its range increment?

[Telonius]

I'm sorry, where is this from?

Epic Level Handbook, in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#hecatoncheires). It looks like the range increment is just plain missing. It's not in the book or in the errata.

Abominations in general, and Hecatoncheires in particular, don't have any special immunity to Dread weapons; they'd take damage from them. But unless they're also Good weapons (or tempered by a deity's blood, however that's supposed to happen), the damage will be subject to Regeneration; and unless it's also both Good and Cold Iron, it will be subject to Damage Reduction.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Thrown weapons without an increment typically have a range increment of 10'.


Thrown Weapons
Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his or her Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on Table: Weapons), but a character who does so takes a -4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.

Yes, that's pitiful. No, there's nothing we can do about it.

[Thurbane]

Hmm, checked errata and 3.5 update: nothing.

You could always house rule that it has a range similar to a Cloud Giant?


Rock Throwing (Ex)
The range increment is 140 feet for a cloud giant’s thrown rocks.

[Nifft]

Thrown weapons without an increment typically have a range increment of 10'.

Yes, that's pitiful. No, there's nothing we can do about it.

One hundred arms, yet only ten feet.

[liquidformat]

please note it can technically reach further than it can throw.... Hizzah for rule dysfunction!

[Psyren]

Thrown weapons without an increment typically have a range increment of 10'.



Yes, that's pitiful. No, there's nothing we can do about it.

Thrown melee weapons have that increment. I would say boulders don't count.

[Menzath]

Seeing as how it's a 3.0 book, I forgive it for the range omition.

That said maybe give it something similar to the Rock hurling feat in races of stone, but tweak it to match it's stat block.

Edit: so after looking at it's stats again, I can conclude it is proficient with said boulders, as a ranged weapon. Normally when throwing an improvised weapon you get a -4, so either they forgot, or it actually knows how to make ranged attacks.
If anything you could use a hill or stone Giants throw range, that makes the most sense.

[Jormengand]

Looking over some other 3.0 books to see if there's a general rule, all I found out was that they also forgot to give this information to the rock-throwing giants in MMII, apart from the firbolg. So yeah, they probably done goofed.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Thrown melee weapons have that increment. I would say boulders don't count.It gives melee weapons as an example of the type of weapon it's talking about, but boulders are also not designed for throwing, so they should fall under this rule as well.

[DarkSoul]

Give it Distant Shot (ELH) as a bonus feat. Sorted. It eliminates both the range penalties and the range increments altogether. If it can see a target it can throw boulders at it.

[Psyren]

It gives melee weapons as an example of the type of weapon it's talking about, but boulders are also not designed for throwing, so they should fall under this rule as well.

"That is" means melee weapons without range increments are the definition, not an example. If they meant it to be an example, they would have said "such as."

It's the same language difference between "e.g." and "i.e."

[MaxiDuRaritry]

"That is" means melee weapons without range increments are the definition, not an example. If they meant it to be an example, they would have said "such as."

It's the same language difference between "e.g." and "i.e."Do note that boulders can be used as melee weapons, albeit improvised ones, so the rule still fits.

It's the only bit of rules we've got to help us sort out this problem. As far as I know, there is nothing else.

[Psyren]

Do note that boulders can be used as melee weapons, albeit improvised ones, so the rule still fits.

So can arrows and javelins, that doesn't actually make them melee weapons. That's what the "improvised" part means.


It's the only bit of rules we've got to help us sort out this problem. As far as I know, there is nothing else.

I'm fine using the "rock throwing" monster rule here as was suggested upthread.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

So can arrows and javelins, that doesn't actually make them melee weapons. That's what the "improvised" part means.

I'm fine using the "rock throwing" monster rule here as was suggested upthread.Well, that would be a good houserule, but the closest actual rule we've got would be the above, because an improvised melee weapon is still a melee weapon, and since it's not designed to be thrown...

Regardless, I second the idea of tossing in Distant Shot as part of the hecatoncheires's's's's feat loadout. That completely obviates the problem.

[Psyren]

because an improvised melee weapon is still a melee weapon

Per the rules it's actually not. "Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat..."

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Per the rules it's actually not. "Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat..."Rhetorical question! Is a character's unarmed strike crafted to be a melee weapon? Rhetorical answer! No, it was not. Is it still a melee weapon? Yes.

If you stab someone with an arrow or whack them with a rock, you're still hitting them with a weapon in melee. You're just using something that wasn't designed for melee as a melee weapon. Just because something wasn't crafted for a given purpose doesn't mean it won't be a tool used for that purpose if used for that purpose, nor will it prevent said tool from being used for that purpose.

The underlined portion of the above simply means it wasn't explicitly designed to be used for what it's being used for, not that it can't be used for it.

In other words, an improvised weapon is still a weapon, improvised or not.

[Psyren]

Rhetorical question! Is a character's unarmed strike crafted to be a melee weapon?

Not by mortals, but I'd still say yes it was :smalltongue:
Less facetiously, unarmed strike is on the melee table while boulders are not, so it's irrelevant to this discussion.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Not by mortals, but I'd still say yes it was :smalltongue:
Less facetiously, unarmed strike is on the melee table while boulders are not, so it's irrelevant to this discussion.Neither are a lot of weapons in the various Monster Manuals.

[StreamOfTheSky]

please note it can technically reach further than it can throw.... Hizzah for rule dysfunction!

I've always felt that your range increment for thrown and projectile attacks should start being measured from the farthest you can "naturally" reach, or at the very least some rule that the range increment is at a minimum equal to your natural reach.

Giving Hecatoncheires a giant-like boulder throwing range is definitely something worth houseruling in for them, IMO. They're like...the most prolific boulder-chuckers of mythology, it's what they do...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hecatoncheires

During the War of the Titans, the Hecatoncheires fought against the Titans, throwing rocks as big as mountains, one hundred at a time, and overwhelming them.

[Astralia123]

I don't understand why you want to find a RAW solution...cause if you stick to RAW, then 3.5 Hecatoncheires are really pathetic.

It attacks only ONCE per standard action. Its weapon attacks are all treated as non-magical (unless it casts GMW to each of them beforehand).
It is not threatening at all...unless you do something about it (I do mean homebrew).

[Bronk]

Give it Distant Shot (ELH) as a bonus feat. Sorted. It eliminates both the range penalties and the range increments altogether. If it can see a target it can throw boulders at it.



Regardless, I second the idea of tossing in Distant Shot as part of the hecatoncheires's's's's feat loadout. That completely obviates the problem.

That's what I do too, especially since despite what the SRD entries say, in the ELH the monster's missing three feats.

[RNightstalker]

Give it Distant Shot (ELH) as a bonus feat. Sorted. It eliminates both the range penalties and the range increments altogether. If it can see a target it can throw boulders at it.

Good thinking! That will probably be the simplest answer too, though figuring out a way to get the Dexterity prerequisite shouldn't be a problem either.


I don't understand why you want to find a RAW solution...cause if you stick to RAW, then 3.5 Hecatoncheires are really pathetic.

It attacks only ONCE per standard action. Its weapon attacks are all treated as non-magical (unless it casts GMW to each of them beforehand).
It is not threatening at all...unless you do something about it (I do mean homebrew).

I am actually glad that you mentioned that because I'm not a happy camper with how it was shafted in the 3.5 update. Now that I think about it, even the 3.0 stats don't match its description (entire pantheons falling, gods not being able to stand up to them, etc.) as a drow of the same CR will have near equivalent SR. Still gonna try it out, but we'll probably have to do a few playtesting rounds.

Thanks all!

[DarkSoul]

Good thinking! That will probably be the simplest answer too, though figuring out a way to get the Dexterity prerequisite shouldn't be a problem either.If it's a bonus feat, you don't need the prerequisites. That's why I specifically said "bonus" :smallbiggrin: