[3.5] Alternatives to potions, higher levels?

[Luckmann]

I'm drawing a blank for possibilities here. Does anyone know about any alternatives to potions that fulfill the same role but works for higher-level spells?

I'm playing a Cleric in a game, and I'm trying to figure out a way to cast or use Awaken without thijgs like Use Magic Device. So Scrolls are out, since it's not on my list. Wands likewise. Potions only work up until spell level 3, but Awaken is spell level 5.

Another player just got a cat. Not as a familiar or animal companion or anything. I want to slip some Awaken into the milk.

[Zaq]

Check out Skull Talismans from Frostburn.

Can’t slip them into a cat’s milk, but other than that . . .

[Crichton]

I'm sure someone else will come up with something clever, but if you just need it cast one time, why not hire a spellcaster to cast it for you?

[BowStreetRunner]

A Ring of Spell Storing can hold a 5th level spell.

[Luckmann]

Excellent suggestion! Only issue is that the skull needs to be from at least a small creature, and the target of the spell is the one that breaks it. Not sure I can get a housecat to gnaw on the skull of a halfling until it breaks.

But still, absolutely an option. I just need to douse it in kibble and put catnip inside of it.

Edit: Apparently it even needs to be Medium-sized.

[Segev]

Call them "Elixers" and make them one-shot Wondrous Items.

The idiocy of limiting potions as they are in 3e is made clearer with every question about them. It is probably the least-useful item creation feat, because there's no reason not to just make one-shot wondrous items that use the same rules.

[daremetoidareyo]

Excellent suggestion! Only issue is that the skull needs to be from at least a small creature, and the target of the spell is the one that breaks it. Not sure I can get a housecat to gnaw on the skull of a halfling until it breaks.

But still, absolutely an option. I just need to douse it in kibble and put catnip inside of it.

It has to be the skull of a creature. So animate object turns an object into a creature, even an origami halfling skeleton statue... Im sure a cat would love to crumple that skull.

[Luckmann]

It has to be the skull of a creature. So animate object turns an object into a creature, even an origami halfling skeleton statue... Im sure a cat would love to crumple that skull.
Unfortunately, there's rules for it. :D A Medium skull talisman has AC 5, 10 hit points, hardness 5, and a break DC of 25. So no paper-mache catnip-skulls, sadly.

Edit: Interestingly, it also says that anyone controlling it can break it as a standard action. So either way, as long as I can get the cat to want to break it, it breaks. Brb, buying all the catnip.

Edit 2: On the other hand, cats don't have weapons or hands, and "A skull talisman produces its effect when it is purposefully destroyed by crushing it, either by smashing it with a weapon or crushing it in one hand." Dammit.

[Zaq]

Unfortunately, there's rules for it. :D A Medium skull talisman has AC 5, 10 hit points, hardness 5, and a break DC of 25. So no paper-mache catnip-skulls, sadly.

Edit: Interestingly, it also says that anyone controlling it can break it as a standard action. So either way, as long as I can get the cat to want to break it, it breaks. Brb, buying all the catnip.

Edit 2: On the other hand, cats don't have weapons or hands, and "A skull talisman produces its effect when it is purposefully destroyed by crushing it, either by smashing it with a weapon or crushing it in one hand." Dammit.

Natural weapons are weapons.

[Telonius]

Place it on the edge of a table, and tell the cat to leave it alone. Repeat as necessary.

[Segev]

Another player just got a cat. Not as a familiar or animal companion or anything. I want to slip some Awaken into the milk.

Why not just cast awaken on it while the player's character isn't looking?

But you could also just enchant the bowl to have a one-shot awaken spell in it, cast on the first cat to drink milk from it.

[Luckmann]

Natural weapons are weapons.

True. Didn't think about that.

I am now imagining a housecat smashing a human skull under it's paw.

Why not just cast awaken on it while the player's character isn't looking?

But you could also just enchant the bowl to have a one-shot awaken spell in it, cast on the first cat to drink milk from it.

Because I'm a Cleric, not a Druid, or I'd just use a scroll and do exactly what you suggest.

As fir the secone one... how?

[Vizzerdrix]

Now I know Ive seen PrCs that can make higher level potions.

I want to say alchemist savant from an eberron book, and maybe somthing from complete arcane? Those should open up the option to buy potions of those levels,.

[Segev]

True. Didn't think about that.

I am now imagining a housecat smashing a human skull under it's paw.


Because I'm a Cleric, not a Druid, or I'd just use a scroll and do exactly what you suggest.

As fir the secone one... how?

Hire a druid to make it for you, I suppose. How were you going to get the potion or other item?

It's just a custom magic item, in any event. Priced just like a potion, because potions use the general "one shot spell" item pricing structure.

You're probably not 17th level, but if you are, miracle can mimic awaken, too.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Wasn't there a way to cook the effects of a Shalantha's delicate disk into baked goods? Give the kitty a special treat.

[Zaq]

Wasn't there a way to cook the effects of a Shalantha's delicate disk into baked goods? Give the kitty a special treat.

We all know how that would go. The cat will very carefully eat around the pill delicate disk.

[zergling.exe]

Trying to awaken someone else's pet without their knowledge sounds like a **** move. Only do this if you are prepared to potentially ruin the game for the other player.

[Luckmann]

Now I know Ive seen PrCs that can make higher level potions.

I want to say alchemist savant from an eberron book, and maybe something from complete arcane? Those should open up the option to buy potions of those levels,.I looked it up, and you probably mean Master Alchemist, from Magic of Faerûn, a 3e book. Alchemist Savant from Magic of Eberron is similar, but doesn't give higher-level potions, but it gives access to offensive potions that can be thrown, spellvials, which is a neat idea.

However, as luck would have it, we're actually playing in Faerûn and the DM is a 3e/3.5-veteran that allows pretty much everything from the 3e Faerûn books just for asking, so this suggestion couldn't have been better! Thanks a lot.

We may have a winner. For a measly 2000gp, we may have made a housecat sentient just to mess with the party rogue for fun. Great work, everyone.

[Darrin]

In addition to Craft Skull Talisman and Craft Wondrous Item, you could use Create Infusion (Masters of the Wild) or Attune Gem (Magic of Faerun).

If you're just looking for a spell-storing item that can re-target another spell cast by someone else, then Shallantha's delicate disk has already been mentioned. Glyph Seal and Greater Glyph Seal (MIC) can be used this way, as can pieces of chardalyn (Silver Marches Web Enhancement/Lords of Darkness).

[Luckmann]

In addition to Craft Skull Talisman and Craft Wondrous Item, you could use Create Infusion (Masters of the Wild) or Attune Gem (Magic of Faerun).

If you're just looking for a spell-storing item that can re-target another spell cast by someone else, then Shallantha's delicate disk has already been mentioned. Glyph Seal and Greater Glyph Seal (MIC) can be used this way, as can pieces of chardalyn (Silver Marches Web Enhancement/Lords of Darkness).All excellent suggestions that I'll be sure to check out.

That said, the DM went for the Master Alchemist, and I got a Potion of Awaken at-cost from a Master Alchemist in the hold, in exchange for the promise of helping out as an apprentice at some point (my character, a priestess, is a novice alchemist).

As soon as this kitten's grown a bit, it's getting woke.

[Psyren]

Trying to awaken someone else's pet without their knowledge sounds like a **** move. Only do this if you are prepared to potentially ruin the game for the other player.

That. Have you actually talked to the player about this? And if they're on board and the GM is too, why not just go pay a druid for it?

[Vizzerdrix]

Yay I`m helpful! :smallbiggrin:

[Ramza00]

Glyph of Warding Greater

[BowStreetRunner]

Trying to awaken someone else's pet without their knowledge sounds like a **** move. Only do this if you are prepared to potentially ruin the game for the other player.That. Have you actually talked to the player about this? And if they're on board and the GM is too, why not just go pay a druid for it?We don't know the players involved. It may just be that this sort of hijinx is perfectly normal in their group. If the OP isn't going to address the warning, we might as well let it drop.

[Luckmann]

Trying to awaken someone else's pet without their knowledge sounds like a **** move. Only do this if you are prepared to potentially ruin the game for the other player.
That. Have you actually talked to the player about this? And if they're on board and the GM is too, why not just go pay a druid for it?
We don't know the players involved. It may just be that this sort of hijinx is perfectly normal in their group. If the OP isn't going to address the warning, we might as well let it drop.
Just to be clear here, it's a housecat from random farm #7. It's not a familiar or an animal companion or anything, and I've implied the scenario heavily to my DM by merely acquiring the Potion of Awaken and saying that I'll also get a fancy wooden bowl and a bottle of milk when we leave the hold, and he seems fine with it. Talking to the cat's owner would ruin the scenario. I'd never even consider doing this to something like an animal companion because of the implications and issues that would arise, potentially robbing someone of a class feature or equivalent.

He's just going to get a smarter cat than he bargained for, and the cat will hopefully remain grateful to the woman that took it in and kept it warm and fed, and I look forward for the housecat to take levels in rogue or bard or something, and to see for how long it can be awakened before the player (or someone else in the party) notices.

From an in-universe perspective, I'm now thinking of waiting a month or so before I awaken the cat, just so it can grow up a bit, because I think it was acquired as a kitten.

[Fizban]

The idiocy of limiting potions as they are in 3e is made clearer with every question about them. It is probably the least-useful item creation feat, because there's no reason not to just make one-shot wondrous items that use the same rules.
There's a very good reason for limiting what level of spells you can put in items usable by anyone: you're supposed to need spellcasters to use spells. Even the vaunted UMD is a class skill only for a few certain classes and requires a check to pull off.

The fact that Brew Potion is bad at high levels just means it's actually a well designed feat, while Craft Wondrous Item is left so open that it's almost meaningless. One of the known problems with metamagic feats is that you can usually take them long before you can actually use them, leading people to build high level spellcasters that somehow survived through the low levels with nothing but useless feats. Why should a 3rd caster level crafting feat let you make 9th level spell items anyone can use?

Aside from Craft Wondrous, all the other item creation feats require progressively higher levels for items that become progressively less restricted. At 1st, scrolls can only be used by the appropriate spellcasters. At 3rd, potions can be used by anyone but cost twice as much and can't go beyond 3rd. At 5th you can Craft Arms and Armor that provide continuous bonuses to anyone who wields them, and occasionally have triggered effects, or craft Wands that finally have a decent cost per charge, are easier to activate than scrolls but still require training, and still cap at 4th level spells. At 8th you can finally get Craft Rod, where a number of weird absolute or "just cast X spell" effects lie, and at 12th you can Forge Rings which can basically do whatever, or Craft Staff which finally lets you make charged items of any spell level (which as of 3.5 also use your own casting power).

In a world where custom wondrous items actually require DM approval and don't just do whatever you want, you need a higher level feat to put higher level spells in items. The aforementioned Craft Skull Talisman from Frostburn requires 6th level and costs twice as much for the privilege of putting any spell you want into an item anyone can use, and it's quite appropriate. (It also lets you break the no-personal-only restriction that potions have, which is less appropriate, but easily justifies the price hike).


He's just going to get a smarter cat than he bargained for,
Have you considered the possibility that the player in question doesn't want an awakened cat? A player declaring their character has a pet is exactly the same as any other bit of fluffy player initiated NPC stuff: their domain, not yours. Would you mess with another character's kid? Their date? Their friend down at the bar? Would you mess with another person's pet? Furthermore, it's entirely possible the player picked up a mundane pet specifically because unlike a full NPC character, there's little justification for the DM to go attacking their cat to get at the PC. Maybe they specifically want something completely normal and not wacky high level highjinks to fill in their fluffy downtime.

We don't know the player, but the fact that you don't recognize messing with another player's stuff without permission as a bad idea is troubling.

[Luckmann]

There's a very good reason for limiting what level of spells you can put in items usable by anyone: you're supposed to need spellcasters to use spells. Even the vaunted UMD is a class skill only for a few certain classes and requires a check to pull off.Attune Gem says otherwise, though. Sure, it's marginally more expensive than scrolls, but they're usable by anyone, works with practically any spell (potions don't) and can be any level. Depending on the DM, the only issue is finding someone that can do make them, which isn't a problem if you're the one making them.

I'm actually incredibly torn, because since I discovered it, I really want to grab it, and it would be perfect for a Lathandrite, but I'm also a spontaneous caster and ever-so-strapped for feats. Dammit. Legitimately consider taking Leadership just to pull an NPC we have in as a crafter, just so he can scribe scrolls and attune gems, despite me purposfully avoiding Leadership because I want to depend on my charms, not feats.

We don't know the player, but the fact that you don't recognize messing with another player's stuff without permission as a bad idea is troubling.Wew, remind me to not play in any of your games. The amount of constipation when it comes to some tables is staggering, it's a a wonder anything interesting ever happens whatwith playing mother-may-I with everyone there. It's a roleplaying game in which stories are told collectively, not a consentathon involving a variable amount of mutually isolated characters playing out their personal headcanon.

[Fizban]

Attune Gem says otherwise, though.
Yes, a feat from Magic of Faerun, when so much of the magical power creep is directly traced from Forgotten Realms materials (I heard they had a reputation before people decided more power was always better). But yeah, if all you want is printed alternatives, Attune Gem is indeed from a 1st party book. I was making a point about Brew Potion and the line of feats and items it was actually written with, not someone's idea of letting you make fast crafting movable magic traps for less than even magic trap pricing because lol gems.

Wew, remind me to not play in any of your games.
Or any of the slew of other people who also said "hey maybe don't do this." When four people are telling you something might be a bad idea, most people would stop and consider whether it's a bad idea.

It's a roleplaying game in which stories are told collectively, not a consentathon involving a variable amount of mutually isolated characters playing out their personal headcanon.
Sure, it's a roleplaying game. And rather than run your "interesting" idea past your fellow player to see if that's a story they'd like to collaborate on, you'd prefer to force your desire to roleplay someone who would create an intelligent being for their own amusement down their throat. The DM in fact should have already brought this up the moment you hinted the plan at them.

All you have to do is either state that you know the player well enough to be sure they'll find this development amusing rather than annoying. Or admit that you're not actually sure but you want to mess with someone else's stuff more than you want to be sure they're okay with it. I'd like to believe the former, but you're being so defensive that the latter seems more likely.

Not that the "collective storytelling" line has ever meant much. The DM might be telling a story, and the players might have stories they want to perform, but trying to hide behind "it's collective storytelling" is if anything worse than the old "but it's what a chaotic neutral character would do!" I'm just waiting for a response of "what your parents never taught you to share?", so I can follow it up by pointing out how ridiculous it is to expect another person to share their imaginary toys with you. "Timmy, if you don't let your brother awaken your imaginary cat in that dungeon game, you're grounded!" Unless you have the sort of relationship with blanket permission to mess with each others' stuff, you don't mess with other people's stuff, that's how polite people interact.

What's so bad about floating the idea past the other player? "Man, wouldn't it be funny if this random cat was suddenly awakened?" Or more subtle, the fake anecdote, "Heh, that reminds me of this other game where we awakened the baron's dog. The baron ran us out of town but we had a new player joining so they played the dog!" Or just "hey if you didn't have any plans for it I had a funny idea for the cat, what do you think?" Or even "hey roll spot to notice me slipping this potion of awaken into the cat dish, unless that's not cool with you." Basically any sense of common courtesy in this "roleplaying."

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Eternal Wands, MIC

Craft Contingent Spell, Complete Arcane

[Psyren]

Just to be clear here, it's a housecat from random farm #7. It's not a familiar or an animal companion or anything, and I've implied the scenario heavily to my DM by merely acquiring the Potion of Awaken and saying that I'll also get a fancy wooden bowl and a bottle of milk when we leave the hold, and he seems fine with it.

Talking to the cat's owner would ruin the scenario.

I would be explicit with the GM if nothing else. They're responsible for the game and any fallout that might result so it's only fair that they know your plans in detail. It's not just your gaming time/fun you're putting at risk with this stunt - and it indeed feels like a stunt, particularly given that you feel like you need to hide it from the other player rather than in-character (almost never a good sign.)

The GM might also be able to work this into the plot somehow. Right now it just seems like an aimless prank - "lol that cat you found is sapient now and friends with me! Funny right?" But it's the GM who then has to roleplay what the cat will do with its newfound intelligence. I'm not saying it'll have an existential breakdown or anything serious like that, but at a minimum it'll have an opinion on whatever the party is up to and may even end up changing alignment down the road.



What's so bad about floating the idea past the other player? "Man, wouldn't it be funny if this random cat was suddenly awakened?" Or more subtle, the fake anecdote, "Heh, that reminds me of this other game where we awakened the baron's dog. The baron ran us out of town but we had a new player joining so they played the dog!" Or just "hey if you didn't have any plans for it I had a funny idea for the cat, what do you think?" Or even "hey roll spot to notice me slipping this potion of awaken into the cat dish, unless that's not cool with you." Basically any sense of common courtesy in this "roleplaying."

Agreed, I don't see what's so bad about any of these. Though I guess this kind of decency isn't "lolrandom" enough...

[Saintheart]

Rune Magic, Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. Requires one item creation feat, Inscribe Rune, so long as you have INT 13 and a high enough Craft check (which you can get via Guidance of the Avatar.) You cast the spell as a rune, then touch the rune to the cat. It's even specific to divine casters who prepare their spells.

If you really want to get this particular spell, pony up for a Domain Draught of Spell domain, then cast Greater Anyspell out of your domain slots and use it to cast Awaken. The creation time for a rune is 10 minutes plus the spell's casting time, after which it's permanently available until triggered, so you don't have to worry about the minimum 1 day of magic item creation item or such.

[umbergod]

Doesnt the core already set a similar precident of single use wondrous item elixers a la elixer of firebreathing?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I know it's a moot point now, but someone might come along later and read this who needs the info.

The soul crystal power, from Magic of Incarnum, can do this, if the manifester in question knows awaken as a psionic power, which is doable if the character has access to the convert-spell-to-power ACF (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) (or knows a character who has it and can teach powers via psychic chirurgery). Now, that ACF can only do arcane spells. Thing is, there are lots of ways to convert divine spells to arcane ones, and since awaken is typically a druid spell, the erudite in question would probably need to learn it from a dragon with the Child of Eberron sovereign archetype, which can cast druid spells as arcane spells. Or maybe from a druid with the Southern Magician feat who can scribe scrolls. Or one of the other many and varied ways of doing so. Maybe even from a custom mantle with awaken on it.

[Vertharrad]

Sword and Sorcery Studios has a book called Relics and Rituals: Excalibur that included a option to brew higher level spell potions. I don't know if this is useful, but I hope so.