Dwarven Migration Loophole?

[xroads]

As it stands, dwarves that die dishonorably belong to Hel. But what if a subset of dwarves decided to migrate to another land?

If the first generation changed religions, would they be subject to the dwarven curse? What about children born in this new colony?

Sure, migrating to escape a curse might be considered dishonorable (arguable). But if they do escape it, then it doesn't matter.

If anything, I think the dwarves have more than one incentive to march all of their armies south and take Gobotopia from the hands of the hobgoblins. It's a win/win scenario for the dwarves.

[Peelee]

As it stands, dwarves that die dishonorably belong to Hel. But what if a subset of dwarves decided to migrate to another land?

If the first generation changed religions, would they be subject to the dwarven curse? What about children born in this new colony?

Sure, migrating to escape a curse might be considered dishonorable (arguable). But if they do escape it, then it doesn't matter.

If anything, I think the dwarves have more than one incentive to march all of their armies south and take Gobotopia from the hands of the hobgoblins. It's a win/win scenario for the dwarves.

Assume this would work (despite the bet not having any wording about it). Why would they not have moved out any time before now?

[xroads]

Assume this would work (despite the bet not having any wording about it). Why would they not have moved out any time before now?

That's certainly a good question. Perhaps the the possible dishonor of such an act is enough to keep any dwarves from moving? Even if it would benefit later generations.

Or, what if it has happened? Maybe a certain colony of dwarves exists in another land, but has yet to be mentioned because they're not important to the narrative.

[Emanick]

Where do you see any evidence that the "curse" relates to where the dwarves live, as opposed to who they are? Every bit of evidence seems to point to the latter. I doubt Haley, for instance, would go to Hel if she moved in with the Thundershields after Elan dies of old age and keeled over from old age on her next birthday.

[Talion]

I don't know if it's been addressed, but I have found it weird that Hel gets (potential) access to the entire globe's worth of dwarves. My concern really stems from how they would have gotten the two other pantheons to agree to that setup, and what, if anything, the payout for them would be for that.

On the other hand, its entirely possible in some manner of contrivance that the vast, and overwhelming, population of the dwarves lives in the North as part of the terms of the bet, thus more naturally falling under her purview than they would otherwise. Or if someone in the North decided "Dwarves are from the North" while creating world 2.0 on their turn, with or without the bet in mind at all.

[xroads]

Where do you see any evidence that the "curse" relates to where the dwarves live, as opposed to who they are? Every bit of evidence seems to point to the latter. I doubt Haley, for instance, would go to Hel if she moved in with the Thundershields after Elan dies of old age and keeled over from old age on her next birthday.

The curse is not directly related to location but to religion. However religion is connected to location (hence why the pantheons are referenced by their cardinal direction). So there is at least an indirect relationship.

I suppose in theory the dwarves could just switch religions. But they would have an easier time of doing that if they moved to another land where other gods are dominant.

As for Haley, what we do know of the curse is that it only effects dwarves. Not humans. So Haley is immune to the curse (short of a reincarnation* spell :smallbiggrin: ).

Edit: *Reincarnation brings in some interesting questions to. If a character dies and comes back as a dwarf, are they subject to the curse?

[Prinygod]

Where do you see any evidence that the "curse" relates to where the dwarves live, as opposed to who they are? Every bit of evidence seems to point to the latter. I doubt Haley, for instance, would go to Hel if she moved in with the Thundershields after Elan dies of old age and keeled over from old age on her next birthday.

It's a deal between 2 northern God's who don't have jurisdiction in the south. Otherwise could 2 southern God's agree to split all mortals between by gender to screw over the northern God's. Forget the Northern God's the other southern God's would have to say something about that. So by the same reason there had to be some stipulations or trade off to the deal to get the other God's to agree. After all the southern God's would be unwilling to give up a dwarf who worshiped them who was born in the southern lands.

[Snails]

I suppose in theory the dwarves could just switch religions. But they would have an easier time of doing that if they moved to another land where other gods are dominant.


I think that is the rub. The bet seems to be within the Northern Pantheon. Presumably there is "legal" precedent for what happens to individual souls who converted during life.

But the migration loophole effectively only solves the issue for individuals or perhaps clans. Because the Northern Lands are ruled by the Northern Gods, and thus it an excellent place for dwarven civilization to prosper. Unless all the dwarves leave at once, those who remain will expand to recreate a populous dwarven civilization that will be under the thumb of this bet when they die.

[Peelee]

That's certainly a good question. Perhaps the the possible dishonor of such an act is enough to keep any dwarves from moving? Even if it would benefit later generations.

Or, what if it has happened? Maybe a certain colony of dwarves exists in another land, but has yet to be mentioned because they're not important to the narrative.

Actually, after looking around a bit, I found a better answer:


the proper solution is actually, "Live a life of honor and service to your fellow dwarf so that whenever you happen to die, you'll be in the middle of acting honorably." Yes, a dwarf can live their life like a selfish coward and hope to wiggle out in the end, but most dwarves don't do that. In fact, many dwarves probably live their lives as they wish and let the chips fall where they may with regard to their death, trusting their gods will give them the opportunity to act honorably when the moment is upon them. Many dwarves probably resign themselves to their fate in Hel anyway, because they would view "gaming the system" as cheating.

Dwarves live for hundreds of years. During that lifespan, there will be at least some moments where they have the choice to either act boldly and (possibly) die with honor, or act cautiously and live. Their knowledge of their afterlife will therefore encourage the majority of dwarves to pick the former, and if they find themselves having picked the latter too many times an end up old and dying, well, then there are causes they can pledge themselves to for that last hurrah. That doesn't mean they walk into an orc camp unarmed and get cut down, it means they keep fighting orcs past the point when they should retreat.

Basically, everyone's talking about the few dwarves who don't act like dwarves their entire life and somehow manage to get to be old and infirm. They're outliers at best.

[Quild]

On #1000, Hel says that she would get the souls of every dwarf on the planet.

On the left, she says that the human and other races souls would be parcelled be the other 17 gods of the pantheon and this can't be true.

She's oblivious to Hylgia's Loki_loophole, but that's probably meaningless.

As shown in crayons of time, gods created the world and had to make deals the ones with the others.
It is possible that the Northern Pantheon enforced the deal to other pantheons. There aren't many dwarves and other pantheons could have had something in exchange.

[xroads]

Actually, after looking around a bit, I found a better answer:

So it sounds like faith. They could in theory leave and change religions. But they choose not too. Instead, they have faith in their gods. That the gods will provide them the opportunity to die honorably when the time is right.

[Peelee]

So it sounds like faith. They could in theory leave and change religions. But they choose not too. Instead, they have faith in their gods. That the gods will provide them the opportunity to die honorably when the time is right.

I'd call it a combination of faith and culture, but basically yeah, thats what it sounds like to me.

[EmperorSarda]

If Hilgya can get out of it by saying, "An honorable life is living according to the precepts of my god", then this is a very valid point. A dwarf who does not like this system could move to a different region and start worshiping the god of another pantheon.

Hel loses out regardless of how the dwarf lives because the agreement was with the Northern pantheon, and not with the other pantheons.

[Prinygod]

Actually, after looking around a bit, I found a better answer:
Doesn't this mean the Hel's plan is a non-starter? If living Honorably was enough, then she will only get the dwarves that she was going to get anyway with the exception of those un-honorable ones that would have thrown themselves into battle to escape her.

[Peelee]

Doesn't this mean the Hel's plan is a non-starter? If living Honorably was enough, then she will only get the dwarves that she was going to get anyway with the exception of those un-honorable ones that would have thrown themselves into battle to escape her.
Let me rephrase.

the proper solution is actually, "Live a life of honor and service to your fellow dwarf so that whenever you happen to die, you'll be in the middle of acting honorably." Yes, a dwarf can live their life like a selfish coward and hope to wiggle out in the end, but most dwarves don't do that. In fact, many dwarves probably live their lives as they wish and let the chips fall where they may with regard to their death, trusting their gods will give them the opportunity to act honorably when the moment is upon them. Many dwarves probably resign themselves to their fate in Hel anyway
Living honorably isn't enough.

[The MunchKING]

It could be binding on “Dwarves” no matter where they are or who they worship, if Thor/Loki/Hel used their chances to say what went in the world when they were designing it to literally write it into the fabric of the Prime Material plane (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html).

[xroads]

It could be binding on “Dwarves” no matter where they are or who they worship, if Thor/Loki/Hel used their chances to say what went in the world when they were designing it to literally write it into the fabric of the Prime Material plane (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html).

That's entirely possible. And after I reread it, Hel's monologue at the moot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1000.html) does seem to suggest this.

[The Pilgrim]

The Oracle doesn't lives in the western continent, yet belongs to Tiamat's portfolio anyway because he is a Kobold. So it seems that certain links of certain races to certain deities may override territorial boundaries.

[dps]

That's entirely possible. And after I reread it, Hel's monologue at the moot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1000.html) does seem to suggest this.

It would be my guess as well. And I don't think which god a particular dwarf might worship would have any bearing on the issue. It doesn't seem to for non-dwarves, as least not to any great extent--remember that while reviewing Roy's file the deva said that they don't normally consider piety.

[martianmister]

It's possible that Dwarves belong to Nothern lands and pantheon.

[factotum]

The Oracle doesn't lives in the western continent, yet belongs to Tiamat's portfolio anyway because he is a Kobold. So it seems that certain links of certain races to certain deities may override territorial boundaries.

This. It's also worth noting that Roy explicitly ended up on the side of the mountain reserved for Northerners, despite dying in Southern lands, so the culture you're born into also seems to have an influence.

[Goblin_Priest]

It could be binding on “Dwarves” no matter where they are or who they worship, if Thor/Loki/Hel used their chances to say what went in the world when they were designing it to literally write it into the fabric of the Prime Material plane (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html).


That's entirely possible. And after I reread it, Hel's monologue at the moot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1000.html) does seem to suggest this.


The Oracle doesn't lives in the western continent, yet belongs to Tiamat's portfolio anyway because he is a Kobold. So it seems that certain links of certain races to certain deities may override territorial boundaries.

If a given pantheon created a race, and that race started out in their domain, I'd deem it pretty fair they could keep jurisdiction over said race, including individuals who migrate to other domains.

After all, if you have cattle that escapes from your pen and goes to the neighbors pasture, it's still yours. ;)

[dps]

And it's not like Durkon had to stop worshipping Thor after he had to leave Dwarven lands.

[Prinygod]

Let me rephrase.

Living honorably isn't enough.

Dying doing something honorable, is alot easier than dying in honorable combate. So much so that the god's just say for example, "hey dwarves pray to your god, while we remake the world". As long as the clerics spread this message, you will get most of the dwarves except the ones that are not near by, whom would only get into Valhalla if they die in combat anyways.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Dying doing something honorable, is alot easier than dying in honorable combate. So much so that the god's just say for example, "hey dwarves pray to your god, while we remake the world". As long as the clerics spread this message, you will get most of the dwarves except the ones that are not near by, whom would only get into Valhalla if they die in combat anyways.

Since their deaths would not have been caused by nor a consequence of their praying, they would not be honorable deaths.

E.g. Dying of exposure while delivering critical supplies to a trapped village? Honorable. Dying of exposure because you went for a walk in a blizzard? Not honorable. Praying because that is all you can do while under attack by enemies and get killed mid-prayer? Honorable. Praying because someone told you and during it the gods destroyed the world? Not honorable.

Grey Wolf

[Prinygod]

Since their deaths would not have been caused by nor a consequence of their praying, they would not be honorable deaths.

E.g. Dying of exposure while delivering critical supplies to a trapped village? Honorable. Dying of exposure because you went for a walk in a blizzard? Not honorable. Praying because that is all you can do while under attack by enemies and get killed mid-prayer? Honorable. Praying because someone told you and during it the gods destroyed the world? Not honorable.

Grey Wolf

Says who? If its a directive of your god as he prevents the destruction of the universe, how is that not honerable. Certainly more honorable than you example where they didn't pack enough clothes delivering supplies.

[Gift Jeraff]

There are no dwarves native to the Southern or Western lands, that's why Malack didn't know that Poison was a dumb spell to use against a dwarf.

[brian 333]

This. It's also worth noting that Roy explicitly ended up on the side of the mountain reserved for Northerners, despite dying in Southern lands, so the culture you're born into also seems to have an influence.

Did he? I thought there was at least one guy wearing Azure City Guard armor on Roy's mountain.

[Emanick]

Did he? I thought there was at least one guy wearing Azure City Guard armor on Roy's mountain.

According to Eugene he did. It’s possible the elder Greenhilt was lying or was misinformed, but it’s more likely that Rich didn’t think things through (or that the trails converged on the way up).

[hroþila]

I think what Eugene said was that people were processed on different sides of the mountain depending on where they came from, but of course they all went up the same mountain and it's 100% normal that Roy met some southerners on his way up. They probably didn't take the straightest way up and instead climbed on winding lines around the mountain to make it easier.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Says who? If its a directive of your god as he prevents the destruction of the universe, how is that not honerable. Certainly more honorable than you example where they didn't pack enough clothes delivering supplies.

Says the fact none of the gods who don't want Hel to win suggested it as a solution, and the author, who was the one that gave the delivery example. So I don't care if you are Watsonian or Doylist, both say your solution isn't valid.

Grey Wolf

[Prinygod]

Says the fact none of the gods who don't want Hel to win suggested it as a solution, and the author, who was the one that gave the delivery example. So I don't care if you are Watsonian or Doylist, both say your solution isn't valid.

Grey Wolf

That's because the gods didn't have the foresight to predict dwarven problem, and they already locked them into a position were they can't address it. I suppose Hel just left it to chance that the gods wouldn't have the foresight and choose to Carry out the results of the vote immediately. Also the giant quote is a bit out of context because iirc, it was in response to why dwarves would maintain their alignment when it has no bearing on their after life. Some one call the Yard, because your argument has been murdered.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That's because the gods didn't have the foresight to predict dwarven problem, and they already locked them into a position were they can't address it. I suppose Hel just left it to chance that the gods wouldn't have the foresight and choose to Carry out the results of the vote immediately.

The gods include a guy with so much foresight that he set up his counter years in advance, by planting a vision that would push Durkon out of the dwarven lands and in a course that will eventually stop Hell. If it was as simple as you make it out to be to come up with a better solution, Odin would have had it. But he did not. So, again, you have no leg to stand on.

Grey Wolf

[Prinygod]

The gods include a guy with so much foresight that he set up his counter years in advance, by planting a vision that would push Durkon out of the dwarven lands and in a course that will eventually stop Hell. If it was as simple as you make it out to be to come up with a better solution, Odin would have had it. But he did not. So, again, you have no leg to stand on.

Grey Wolf

Are you sure you are still quoting the giant or have you convinced your self you are now the writer. Because I would ask you to provide evidence that Odin is the chessmaster when his "pawn" is currently carrying out Hel's plan. Now maybe Odin is so omniscient that neither the protagonist nor other gods have agency before him, but there has been no evidence of that other than a theory from Roy that not even he is fully convinced by.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Are you sure you are still quoting the giant or have you convinced your self you are now the writer. Because I would ask you to provide evidence that Odin is the chessmaster when his "pawn" is currently carrying out Hel's plan. Now maybe Odin is so omniscient that neither the protagonist nor other gods have agency before him, but there has been no evidence of that other than a theory from Roy that not even he is fully convinced by.

Tell you what, I bet whatever amount you want that in the end, Hel will not win, and that nothing in the comic will suggest that this wasn't foreseen and set in motion by Odin. Not because I'm the author (although the fact the author has told us there is 7 books and this is the sixth suggest that the current defeat will not end OotS), but because that is how narrative causality works. Also, I'm done talking to you. You are clearly too enamoured with your own loophole to see it for the logical shambles it is.

Grey Wolf

[brian 333]

If it were as simple as location, Durkula would be a servant of Nergal.

If it is a hard and fast, unbreakable law, then only Thor and Hel would be able to receive dwarven souls.

Clearly, neither is the case, which means that the answer lies between these extremes.

We've seen dwarven clerics of other deities, to whom they presumably go after they shed their mortal body. So far we only have Hillgya's word on what happens if they obey their gods instead of following traditional dwarven honor and she admits she is gambling.



Worshipping a diety other than Thor, even a deity from another pantheon, does not relieve a dwarf from the requirement to die honorably; however, it may grant that deity the right to argue that the dwarf in question was acting honorably by adhering to the dictates of their professed faith.

[KorvinStarmast]

Worshipping a diety other than Thor, even a deity from another pantheon, does not relieve a dwarf from the requirement to die honorably; however, it may grant that deity the right to argue that the dwarf in question was acting honorably by adhering to the dictates of their professed faith.

This looks like a summary of Hilgya's Loophole (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1113.html).

Or would that be Loki's Loophole?

[Prinygod]

{scrubbed}

[Prinygod]

If it were as simple as location, Durkula would be a servant of Nergal.

If it is a hard and fast, unbreakable law, then only Thor and Hel would be able to receive dwarven souls.

Clearly, neither is the case, which means that the answer lies between these extremes.

We've seen dwarven clerics of other deities, to whom they presumably go after they shed their mortal body. So far we only have Hillgya's word on what happens if they obey their gods instead of following traditional dwarven honor and she admits she is gambling.



Worshipping a diety other than Thor, even a deity from another pantheon, does not relieve a dwarf from the requirement to die honorably; however, it may grant that deity the right to argue that the dwarf in question was acting honorably by adhering to the dictates of their professed faith.



Are we sure that part of Thor and Hel's deal, allowed her to create Durkula? After all she didn't have a claim on Durkon because he died Honorably. It may have more to do with the fact that Durkon was born in the north and worshiped northern God's that allowed her to create Durkula. After all she is the northern God with the undead portfolio.

Also I think all dwarves go to Valhalla regardless of whom they worship, I'm not sure each northern God has their own plan separate form Valhalla other than Hel who gets the Dishonored ones.

[brian 333]

You are a real piece of work, you completely strawmaned me from saying that praying is honorable, all the to declaring that I said Hel is going to win. The fact that you are now running away shows your own guilt in the matter, well go ahead I derive no pleasure in shattering your fragile ego.

Please refrain from personal arguments. It serves no one's point and creates an atmosphere of hostility which can easily escallate.

Your argument is as valid as half-a-hundred I've presented. I've found that some who forcefully dismiss some of my points forcefully support others. Didn't stop them from whipping out the big guns the next time they disagreed with me.

The question you raise is, what is considered dying honorably?

We've seen Thor win the argument that dying of alcohol-induced liver failure is an honorable death because the deceased 'was fighting alcoholism.' We've seen the argument that going off to hack at trees when death approaches is honorable because trees dig into caverns and destabilize them, endangering dwarves. We've seen that dying in battle is honorable. The common thread in this is that there must be a fight of some kind for a death to be considered honorable.

A dwarf appears to require a conflict for the honor clause to be invoked. How does praying equate with combat? This is the point you have not yet overcome.

[Prinygod]

Please refrain from personal arguments. It serves no one's point and creates an atmosphere of hostility which can easily escallate.

Your argument is as valid as half-a-hundred I've presented. I've found that some who forcefully dismiss some of my points forcefully support others. Didn't stop them from whipping out the big guns the next time they disagreed with me.

The question you raise is, what is considered dying honorably?

We've seen Thor win the argument that dying of alcohol-induced liver failure is an honorable death because the deceased 'was fighting alcoholism.' We've seen the argument that going off to hack at trees when death approaches is honorable because trees dig into caverns and destabilize them, endangering dwarves. We've seen that dying in battle is honorable. The common thread in this is that there must be a fight of some kind for a death to be considered honorable.

A dwarf appears to require a conflict for the honor clause to be invoked. How does praying equate with combat? This is the point you have not yet overcome.

God's are powered by faith, powering your god as they remake the universe is about the most important conflict a mortal will ever be faced with. They are literally sacrificing their lives in the process.

[Peelee]

God's are powered by faith, powering your god as they remake the universe is about the most important conflict a mortal will ever be faced with.

Dwarves already have faith in their gods. A whole lot of faith, it seems. So even assuming it works they way you think (prayer will give them more power directly and immediately), it would likely be negligible.

[Emanick]

By Word of Giant, gods in the OOTSverse are powered by the souls of worshippers as they disintegrate into the fabric of the cosmos after existing in the afterlife for a certain amount of time. So they do derive their power from worshippers - but not from prayer.

[Prinygod]

Dwarves already have faith in their gods. A whole lot of faith, it seems. So even assuming it works they way you think (prayer will give them more power directly and immediately), it would likely be negligible.

A child defending their siblings from a bandit effort's is negligible, I guess that kid will suffer in Hel. Except we already know that from the Divine the effort is what counts per Roy's interview is what counts, how about provide something to the contrary?

Also they are still carrying out the directive of their god, it really could be anything and it would still be honerable. I just didn't expect so many people to have an objection to praying being honorable, guess that's what I get for expecting this board to be reasonable.

[Peelee]

A child defending their siblings from a bandit effort's is negligible, I guess that kid will suffer in Hel. Except we already know that from the Divine the effort is what counts per Roy's interview is what counts, how about provide something to the contrary?

Where souls go when they die based on circumstance does not equate exactly to how gods are powered. Especially since we see, by your own example, that where souls go when they die is subject to change by deific will, and by in-comic evidence (Thor arguing with Hell) it is subjective and up for debate.

[Emanick]

A child defending their siblings from a bandit effort's is negligible, I guess that kid will suffer in Hel. Except we already know that from the Divine the effort is what counts per Roy's interview is what counts, how about provide something to the contrary?

Also they are still carrying out the directive of their god, it really could be anything and it would still be honerable. I just didn't expect so many people to have an objection to praying being honorable, guess that's what I get for expecting this board to be reasonable.

I certainly consider praying honorable, but the dwarven concept of "dying with honor," as described in the comic and by Rich on the forums, seems to have very little to do with how I would define the term. We're not looking at a just arrangement here, that much seems clear.

[Prinygod]

By Word of Giant, gods in the OOTSverse are powered by the souls of worshippers as they disintegrate into the fabric of the cosmos after existing in the afterlife for a certain amount of time. So they do derive their power from worshippers - but not from prayer.

I would need a quote on that, God's literally reward clerics prayers with supernatural powers. Just because they gain power from souls, which I don't dispute, doesn't preclude them getting a lesser amount of power from prayers which is a dnd staple.

[Peelee]

Also they are still carrying out the directive of their god, it really could be anything and it would still be honerable. I just didn't expect so many people to have an objection to praying being honorable, guess that's what I get for expecting this board to be reasonable.

You do realize this is the same story where dwarves drinking themselves to death is considered honorable?

[Prinygod]

Where souls go when they die based on circumstance does not equate exactly to how gods are powered. Especially since we see, by your own example, that where souls go when they die is subject to change by deific will, and by in-comic evidence (Thor arguing with Hell) it is subjective and up for debate.

Except we already know it's the effort and not the results that matter. After all you could, instead of praying get in a last bit of debauchery instead.

[Peelee]

Except we already know it's the effort and not the results that matter. After all you could, instead of praying get in a last bit of debauchery instead.

We know that for Celestia. Other afterlives may not be so picky.

[Prinygod]

You do realize this is the same story where dwarves drinking themselves to death is considered honorable?

This makes things even easier than praying and proves you are arguing for the sake of arguing, where as I had a point when I started that got lost in the onslaught.

[Peelee]

This makes things even easier than praying and proves you are arguing for the sake of arguing, where as I had a point when I started that got lost in the onslaught.

No, that makes things less reasonable. And since you appealed to reasonability, it seems you're getting lost in your own argument.

[Prinygod]

We know that for Celestia. Other afterlives may not be so picky.

And how would you like to support that? I actually brought a fact, you just want to be devisive.

[Prinygod]

{scrubbed}

[Peelee]

And how would you like to support that? I actually brought a fact, you just want to be devisive.

You brought a fact about apples and applied it to oranges because they're both fruit. If you wanna conflate them, feel free, but don't expect to be greeted with agreement all around.

[Prinygod]

You brought a fact about apples and applied it to oranges because they're both fruit. If you wanna conflate them, feel free, but don't expect to be greeted with agreement all around.

I don't think you would be capable of agreeing that apples and oranges are both fruit, if meant agreeing with your opponent.

[Peelee]

I don't think you would be capable of agreeing that apples and oranges are both fruit, if meant agreeing with your opponent.

Well, when moving your goalposts off the field and grasping at straws doesn't help, I guess trying to belittle the opposition does make sense as the next go-to move. Have fun with that, bud.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

In general, I don’t view prayer in and of itself as honorable. Nor do I view an action as honorable just because your god tells you to do it. The way that I see honor being most frequently defined (i.e. in dictionaries) is as good reputation, fame or respect, or integrity, and thus I think being honorable means doing something that results in one of those above definitions. Thus, dying in battle? Honorable. Sitting at home because Vafthrudnir says it’s cool? Not so much. Even Hilgya doesn’t go as far as to say doing what your god tells you to do is honorable, she specifically notes she does what Loki views as honorable, and I’m not even convinced that her loophole works.

ETA: This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19683640&postcount=41) is the Giant’s quote on the afterlife. Note that he seems to regard Soul Energy as a conserved property, and therefore prayer would not increase a god’s power.

[Prinygod]

{scrubbed}

[Prinygod]

In general, I don’t view prayer in and of itself as honorable. Nor do I view an action as honorable just because your god tells you to do it. The way that I see honor being most frequently defined (i.e. in dictionaries) is as good reputation, fame or respect, or integrity, and thus I think being honorable means doing something that results in one of those above definitions. Thus, dying in battle? Honorable. Sitting at home because Vafthrudnir says it’s cool? Not so much. Even Hilgya doesn’t go as far as to say doing what your god tells you to do is honorable, she specifically notes she does what Loki views as honorable, and I’m not even convinced that her loophole works.

ETA: This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19683640&postcount=41) is the Giant’s quote on the afterlife. Note that he seems to regard Soul Energy as a conserved property, and therefore prayer would not increase a god’s power.

Thank you for the quote, however Giant specifically says souls generate soul power. As in they create it, so it's not a not a zero numbers game. Otherwise a population never grows. So your assumption that prayers can't provide soul force is flawed from the beginning.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Thank you for the quote, however Giant specifically says souls generate soul power. As in they create it, so it's not a not a zero numbers game. Otherwise a population never grows. So your assumption that prayers can't provide soul force is flawed from the beginning.

Hmm, that is a fair point. However, given that The Giant, in all his quotes on the afterlife, only focuses on the power inside a soul, and how important it is for the gods to gain and process it, I don’t think a presumption can be made that prayers also provide more power to gods. He compares soul power to the stock market in this quote (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19683734&postcount=45), so you’re definitely correct that power is not conserved, but it does seem that the only way to increase it is by having living souls. Another point of evidence is that Hel believes that having more souls is more important than having clerics or worshippers, as souls give power, while clerics use it. She’s only upset to discover that without worship she won’t gain many souls, not that she won’t have many giving her prayers.

[Peelee]

My depiction of prayer being honorable was a throw away example in the first place. Why wolf decided to latch onto it I can only guess, I presume he thought it was a weak point. He quickly learned it was not such a soft piece of meat and wisely spit it out, but tried to drag me all over the place before he tactlessly gave up. You however fixate on it like mental illness. But even in the battlefield you chose, you've ran out of ammunition, and are desperately throwing any thing you can. I however am just getting started.

That's a whole lot of words to say nothing at all. And since you never actually rebutted my last point, I expect more of the same if I keep engaging you. Have fun, dude.

[Prinygod]

{scrubbed}

[Prinygod]

Hmm, that is a fair point. However, given that The Giant, in all his quotes on the afterlife, only focuses on the power inside a soul, and how important it is for the gods to gain and process it, I don’t think a presumption can be made that prayers also provide more power to gods. He compares soul power to the stock market in this quote (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19683734&postcount=45), so you’re definitely correct that power is not conserved, but it does seem that the only way to increase it is by having living souls. Another point of evidence is that Hel believes that having more souls is more important than having clerics or worshippers, as souls give power, while clerics use it. She’s only upset to discover that without worship she won’t gain many souls, not that she won’t have many giving her prayers.

This is true, but also consider she has severe deficit of soul power, she is playing catch up. Her only worshipers are undead, and tend not to last long. Add to the assumption that undead can't generate soul force, worshipers wouldn't be that useful to her in the first place. To sum up, even if praying generated soul power, she would only be able to use souls anyways. Possibly explaining the disregard.

[Forum Staff]

This thread has become littered with personal attacks.

Locked.