Incarnate Experiences

[Speeddemon87]

Hi, I just started playing in a 3.5 campaign and decided to try out Incarnate, a cool class that had interested me for a while but I had never gotten the chance to use before. I've looked up the handbooks and a lot of theoretical ideas on how to properly build and play an Incarnate but I was wondering what people's experiences were with Incarnates and the Incarnum system as a whole. Things like, how often do you find incarnum specific enemies popping up in a campaign if only one player uses incarnum, and how much should I try to be a skill monkey when I have two rogues in the party, etc.

[Troacctid]

Forget about incarnum-specific enemies. They can show up in half the combats and it won't matter. None of your abilities depend on anyone else having any incarnum abilities whatsoever.

You need to have a plan. Last time I played an Incarnate, my plan was melee tank/bruiser, so I dipped into Crusader every fifth level to get some raw power, and took Vitality Belt for defense, Lightning Gauntlets (bound to hands) as a damage-booster, Airstep Sandals to help me get where I needed to be, and utility stuff in the other slots. Expanded Soulmeld Capacity was a key feat (as it often is). My core strategy was to get in their and beat stuff up with a polearm, using Crusader maneuvers and stances to deal extra damage and protect my allies. The once-per-turn limitation on Lightning Gauntlets didn't matter because I was mainly using standard action strikes anyway. If a situation came up where a niche soulmeld mattered, I could re-shape on the fly.

There are other viable plans. You could focus on Dissolving Spittle as your main source of damage and be a pseudo-Warlock. You could use the Necrocarnum Circlet to do some minionmancy. You could multiclass as a Rogue or whatever, get some extra skill points, and play skillmonkey with your skill-booster soulmelds (and Lucky Dice). You could multiclass as a spellcaster and go into Sapphire Hierarch, Soulcaster, or Soul Manifester. You could try and get some buddies to abuse Share Soulmeld. You could just prestige out into some transformative nonsense class like Chameleon or Ur-Priest or Master of Many Forms. And heck, a lot of these plans can be combined, if you finesse it right. Just make sure you know what your main role is going to be, because you can't just do everything at once—it doesn't work that way.

[Fizban]

If you rate yourself in terms of offensive power to just about any degree, at some point you're going to need to multiclass- as written the Incarnate just doesn't have squat for power. Once the initial frontloading wears off, Dissolving Spittle is so underwhelming I'd never expect someone to actually rely on it, and they've basically got that plus the same but electricity at touch range, if you wanted to use soulmelds. At least Eldritch Blast has 60' range, no damage type, and can be modified as you level up and boosted by items. Necrocarnum Circlet is on the other hand crazy good, as long as you're Evil or spending a feat tax for only being neutral/Something. My incarnate experience was with incarnate/totemist, gestalt backed by cleric. It was pretty awesome, but I was absolutely relying on the cleric's armor proficiency even if I didn't really cast any spells, and a web article soulmeld, and totemist claws for my actual attacks, and had specific plans to dip Crusader to make the most of the heal-boosting meld.

Your best option if you want to just play Incarnate is to get the DM to allow some tweaks and brew to make it more playable on its own in some capacity other than desperately pretending you're a skillmonkey.

Incarnum

Base Mechanics

Bound soulmelds no longer prevent you from using magic items, but you must shape the meld "around" an item you're already wearing. No magic item but the one worn when you bound the meld can be used in that slot until you unbind it.
Incarnum Focii no longer exist.
Incarnates instead get an additional +1 capacity to soulmelds at 9th for a total of +2, up to +3 at 15th.
Soulborn get +1 capacity to soulmelds at 9th.
Some soulmelds are adjusted (see below) [haven't actually got around to this yet, even the bad ones are usually just good enough at their specific job]



Incarnum Classes

Incarnate: Now has 3/4 BAB; Incarnum Radiance, Share Incarnum Radiance, Chakra Binds (arms, brow, shoulders), and Chakra Binds (throat, waist) are all gained one level earlier. (Note that remaining "dead" levels still fall on extra binds or HD-based capacity upgrades.)
The Incarnate's Expanded Soulmeld Capacity bonus does not stack with the Totemist's Totem Chakra Bind bonus.
Soulborn: Increase Will save to high, meldshaper level to full, and add another bonus feat at 15th level. At 2nd level add Lay on Hands (as Paladin, total=max hp, see above) for good Soulborn, or Deadly Touch (as UA variant paladins, total=max hp) for evil.
Totemist: none.



Adjusted Incarnate Table

Lv.
Special
Lv.
Special
1stAura, Detect Opposition11thRapid Meldshaping 2/day
2ndChakra Bind (crown), Radiance 1/day12thIncarnum Radiance 3/day
3rdExpanded Soulmeld Capacity +113thChakra Binds (throat, waist)
4thChakra Binds (feet, hands)14th-
5thRapid Meldshaping 1/day15thExpanded Soulmeld Capacity +3
6thShare Incarnum Radiance16thChakra Bind (heart), S.I.R (no fatigue)
7thIncarnum Radiance 2/day17thRapid Meldshaping 3/day, Radiance 4/day
8thChakra Binds (arms, brow, shoulders)18th-
9thExpanded Soulmeld Capacity +219thChakra Bind (soul)
10th-20thPerfect Meldshaper, True Incarnation

There's my initial tweaks. Lemme know if you want to see my Soulspark Companion feat or my blatantly better than Dissolving Spittle (at least until it has throat bind) pair of incarnate melds.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm just about to have the one I'm currently playing die on me (overwhelming encounter, should've fled).

It's a fun class, imo. The peculiarities of incarnum take some getting used to though.

To your questions;

I was the only incarnum user in my party and we -never- encountered any other incarnum related material. I'd like to think my DM would've dropped some in eventually but I honestly kind of doubt he would have anytime soon and with this character at death's door I'm not expecting that to change. If this was your DMs suggestion then you might get luckier than I did.

If you've got two rogues (or similar) in the party already, you may have trouble finding your niche in the skill sector. That said, an incarnate makes a really solid skill-type character, particularly in the early game. The skill bonuses that incarnate melds give (usually insight) keep up nicely with the ranks you would have in those skills if you were a rogue or ninja or the like when they're filled to capacity. Thanks to rapid meldshaping, it's actually unlikely that you'll find yourself needing a skill and not being able to access it at a level that's relevant unless it's pretty niche or the DC is demanding a specialist at the upper-mid to higher levels.

An example: you think there's an invisible creature nearby. While a rogue might scatter some flour you just pop the keeneye lenses and fill 'em up. At level 9 that got me a +10 bonus to go with my +3 wis for a 13 against the DC~22 or so of an untrained invisible foe. That's a 60% chance to pinpoint the guy. Now I'm obviously not picking out any invisible rogues like that but neither is anyone else unless they're both trained in spot and have see invisibility or some sensory ability to ignore invisibility. Of course, that's you if you actually shaped and bound the keeneye lenses that morning :smallwink:

Which brings us to non-skill abilities. There's a number of options for offense, defense, and auxiliary abilities. I leaned pretty heavily on the lightning gauntlets for offense but acid spittle is also pretty cool since they're both touch attacks and your attack bonus will stay relatively low. Thanks to expanded soulmeld capacity they both delivered a very respectable 5d6 each. On the defense side; adamant paudrons, impulse boots, and vitality belt net you solid DR that's difficult to bypass, uncanny dodge and evasion, and tons of HP, respectively.

It was obvious to me that I would need to start to specialize before much longer. At some point you need to pick up incarnum foci to increase your capacity for selected chakras and the bonuses from soulmelds cap out at 18-20 for one that you've both got a focus for and have selected for expanded capacity that day. So give that some forethought.

It's possible to get your attack bonus to a level that's respectable for a melee character but poor BAB means you've still only got one attack for most of your career. Unless you're going to at least dip a level or two in a martial adept class, I wouldn't bother.

[Speeddemon87]

Thanks for the responses everyone. I'll look into the skill booster melds, but we're still at level 1 right now so it'll be a couple levels till I can change melds mid day.

My Incarnate is chaotic, so he'll probably never be the best meleer around. My plan so far was to rely on Lightning gauntlets/dissolving spittle for the low to beginning of mid levels then get a heavily enchanted bow to use for the rest of the game. I'd like to try playing the game through with straight Incarnate 20, no dips or prestige classes just to see how well the class works out of the box and to test myself in how well I can make it work (the rest of the party is made of two rogues, a druid, a cleric, and a binder, but no one other than the Binder and myself are really big into optimization). My wisdom score is garbage some I'm trying to stay away from melds/binds with saving throws (my own will saves are covered by Steadfast Determination).

How useful are astral vambraces vs Adamant pauldrons at mid to high levels? How much more likely are the monsters to bypass the Dr/magic and is it worth the half as large dr from adamant? And how useful is the fortification from adamant?

[Fizban]

Monsters with DR/magic at high levels are actually pretty dang rare, even if your DM reads DR/magic+X as beating /magic, mostly just dragons. The question is weather you're fighting monsters, or monsters that use weapons, which is a pretty big question since even among your fiends and celestials there's no guarantees, followed by whether or not your DM gives all their monsters optimized gear (in which case your expected power level is just too high for a lot of things). The usefulness of fortification likewise depends heavily on how much your DM throws sneak attack/crit builds at you, since most monsters don't have sneak attack and only a few have innate super crits.

How can I put this. . . we recently had a thread about Binders in which I slagged the class off for just being not good enough at it's own main thing, just not worth playing before 8th and generally a disappointment. I would take vanilla Binder 20 over vanilla Incarnate 20. You've got two rogues who, if they ever melee, will almost certainly be getting sneak attacks in addition to two rogues worth of skill points, plus the expected two full casters with an extra side of animal. Incarnate beats out Binder early on, but once the Binder hits double vestiges they can both have and eat cake, and once they pass 10th they can do just about all the Incarnate's little tricks I think, except with 3/4 d8 and more interesting direct abilities.

You'd need an extremely special snowflake bow to keep up.

Incarnate can work up until around 9th on its own- the 9th level binds finally give you all of a third energy type to work with, see invisibility or darkvision or swim (that warlocks had at 1st /dead horse), the daze effect on Incarnate Weapon. But after that you're waiting until 14th to get suggestion, banishing outsiders, and the second round of dissolving spittle, the former two having saves and only one chance to hit a given target that day. At 16th you finally get. . . more static defenses, which you could get half of with a feat at 18th if you really wanted, and at 18th you get. . . true seeing, harder to remove concealment, +30' land speed that doesn't stack with items, and 1/week gate (including xp cost if calling).

So basically the last 11 levels of the class consist of an upgrade to its most boring attack ability, static defense options you could match with items, and 1/week use of spell that one of your party members can cast multiple times per day last level. And if you want more than one of your things to be at the maximum "expected" capacity you need to buy multiple high priced incarnum focii. If you're planning on using a bow, the best thing to do is get out after 9, 10, or 11, and just jam on fighter or ranger or warblade or barbarian or all of them.

[Speeddemon87]

The bow I have my eyes on is a +1 Keen Force Collision Splitting composite bow, so it should be pretty good, but yeah keeping up damage wise may be a challenge. I'd maybe go into martial adept but they don't have any ranged moves that synergize well with my chaotic incarnate side.

[Zaq]

Incarnates are one of my favorite classes. I've brought a few to the table over the years. They're a lot of fun.

Your biggest weakness, as others have noted, is offense. You don't have much of it long-term. The old standbys of the Lightning Gauntlets and/or the Dissolving Spittle do work well in the early game (and, even in the mid-game, they give you something that's likely to still have a higher expected DPR than a normal basic melee attack on someone without a dedicated source of bonus damage, if for no other reason than accuracy), but you might want to dip your toe into another class or two just long enough to get a couple reliable ways to make enemies unhappy with you.

You can, of course, go other directions. An old standby trick of mine on an Incarnate is to spend a feat on Shape Soulmeld to poach the Mauling Gauntlets, then get EWP for the harpoon (from Frostburn). Your bonus on opposed STR checks is likely to drastically outstrip that of a raging Barbarian, so you can be an interesting and weird position controller with the harpoon. Still not a high-damage character, but control is a way of contributing to combat. (You can also go for standard tripping if you like, as the Mauling Gauntlets work just as well on the STR checks involved in trip attempts, but I like the harpoon because it's weird and different.)

One leg up you have over other folks is early access to a lot of defensive abilities that usually take a while longer to come online. That can let you charge into some situations where others might fear to tread, if you're prepped for it.

Do not underestimate Rapid Meldshaping. It is one of your most useful class features by far. The fact that you can't bind the rapidly shaped meld is a downer, but it doesn't kill the feature. Sometimes you just plain need a different meld than what you prepared, and this feature is what lets your legendary flexibility really shine. This will also help you contribute even if there's two skill-heavy characters in the party already. There's probably going to be a lot of times when they can cover a given skill roll pretty well, but every so often, you'll run into something you just plain didn't expect, and they can't shuffle their skill ranks around. You can, on the other hand, suddenly decide that you do in fact have the Mage's Spectacles and that you can indeed try that Decipher Script check. (I mean, who puts heavy investment in Decipher Script? Very few folks, that's who. It won't come up often. But when it does come up, you're the one who can pull something out to work with it.)

Also, don't be afraid to experiment with new soulmelds. Don't get too caught in a rut of shaping the exact same thing day after day. Once you've got enough melds to cover your bases, I recommend experimenting with at least one different meld every day, just to see what happens. I remember occasionally being very happily surprised that I had picked a certain meld over an old standby. (And of course Rapid Meldshaping is your fallback option if you pick really poorly.)

Is your race already decided? If not, you might want to look at being a dwarf and going into Ironsoul Forgemaster. It's a fun PrC. Fireblood dwarf, in particular, gets you access to the draconic soulmelds in Dragon Magic, which may be useful to you. (If not going dwarf, any race with the [dragonblood] subtype gets those same melds. Or of course you can just stick with the old standby of azurin.)

Overall, the Incarnate is a class that encourages creative problem-solving. It doesn't have spells that just say "rub me on XYZ problem and it'll go away," but it offers a wide enough variety of weird and interesting tools that you can probably cobble together a creative solution to something, especially (but not only) if you have a GM who encourages out-of-the-box thinking. As an anecdotal example, I recall a game where we ended up succeeding at some unusual task or another because my Incarnate could use the Cerulean Sandals and the Flame Cincture to quickly walk across a lava flow that was in our way. (I think that let us get a message to someone we couldn't otherwise reach? The details are fading, unfortunately, but the general air of creative problem-solving remains. I do recall that it was important that it be done quickly and, I think, repeatedly, and only my soulmelds fit all of the needed criteria.)

Don't be ashamed to dip your toe into Totemist if you want to get some extra utility or even some natural weapons. It feels weird until you do it, but it's really not a bad choice.

If you haven't already picked your stats, look long and hard at what soulmelds you care about before deciding to invest meaningfully in WIS. The Incarnate's save DCs are allegedly based off of WIS, but you'll also notice how very few save DCs there actually are, and most of them are too weak to bother with in the first place.

This is a weird option, but the Incarnate does get K: Planes as a class skill. If your GM is onboard with it (the feat does require GM permission to take in the first place, and for good reason), you could take the feat Dreamtelling from Heroes of Horror, which gives you the chance to interpret your dreams with K: Planes to get the effects of certain divination spells (Augury, Divination, or Commune, depending on how good your check is). Just getting a quick Augury or Divination to get some basic thumbs-up/thumbs-down intel on shaping or not shaping certain melds at the start of the day is not a bad thing at all, if your GM is willing to play ball with you on it. Don't make it a spotlight-hogging moment every day, but info is good stuff to have when you're a class who can swap their abilities at the start of the day.

[Fizban]

I'm gonna leave that edit up there 'cause I don't feel like moving it down here.

The bow I have my eyes on is a +1 Keen Force Collision Splitting composite bow, so it should be pretty good, but yeah keeping up damage wise may be a challenge. I'd maybe go into martial adept but they don't have any ranged moves that synergize well with my chaotic incarnate side.
The problem with splitting is that it's ridiculously overpowered- and if you're getting it there's no reason the rest of the party couldn't either, at which point they can launch twice as many ranged sneak attacks (at least there's no Greater Invisbility in the party).

If you're the only one getting it then it really is a special snowflake bow and, assuming you get splitting first and however many other boosters you might need, that might work. But as a +3 ability you can't get even just splitting until 32,000, which ought to mean 11th, and can't add collision or force until 14th, 17th for the other, and you still need Greater Magic Weapon support from the Cleric. I'd actually recommend Improved Crit at 18th over Keen unless you have a burning need to split one of your later chakras (or just oil of Keen Edge or Dolorous Blow).

Anyone else ever notice how the chaotic Incarnate Avatar is a blue slaad, but grants bonuses on ranged attacks, which blue slaadi completley lack? Hilarious.

[Troacctid]

The bow I have my eyes on is a +1 Keen Force Collision Splitting composite bow, so it should be pretty good, but yeah keeping up damage wise may be a challenge. I'd maybe go into martial adept but they don't have any ranged moves that synergize well with my chaotic incarnate side.
Waste of money. Don't bother. If you've got 100k+ gp to burn, you can do so much better.

If you want to go martial adept, then do it and just don't shape Incarnate Avatar. There are plenty of other good soulmelds. Your incarnum radiance increases your speed, so it's still plenty useful for a melee brawler.

[Speeddemon87]

I've already got my stats and race picked out (Azurin with wis dumped). Trying new things is important so I'll make sure to give all of the melds a try.

Knowledge the planes might be kinda limited in this campaign. Apparently next to no one actually has in depth theories about other planes of existence in this world. The cleric needs some ranks in it anyways for a feat so I'll probably let him focus on that.

Improved critical is something I could get but I was hoping to get Heart of Incarnum at 18th lvl.

Splitting is strong but I don't think the rogues or anyone else wants to go into range (part of why I was going to angle towards that), so I don't think that they'll be willing to put in the feats to use it. The bow is expensive but I was hoping to get it sooner by relying on soulmelds in the place of defensive and utility items (after my first purchase of a soulstone). If possible I'll try to convince the DM to let me just pay the enhancement price in chunks for each bonus, paying whatever is needed to increase it each time I want it to get the next enhancement. If not I might well have to borrow from the party and buy it in the lowish double digits.

Multiclassing martial adept or totemist could add a lot of options. It would cost me my Perfect meldshaper and possibly my soul bind. Still they are quite tempting. I'll look more into how incarnate and totemists multiclass.

[Troacctid]

Improved critical is something I could get but I was hoping to get Heart of Incarnum at 18th lvl.
Don't bother, it's bad.


Splitting is strong but I don't think the rogues or anyone else wants to go into range (part of why I was going to angle towards that), so I don't think that they'll be willing to put in the feats to use it. The bow is expensive but I was hoping to get it sooner by relying on soulmelds in the place of defensive and utility items (after my first purchase of a soulstone). If possible I'll try to convince the DM to let me just pay the enhancement price in chunks for each bonus, paying whatever is needed to increase it each time I want it to get the next enhancement. If not I might well have to borrow from the party and buy it in the lowish double digits.
Even on the installment plan it's still more money than it's worth. A +1 splitting bow is already over 32,000 gp with no other abilities added on. That's enough to buy a ring of invisibility plus a horn of plenty, for example, or a third eye sense plus a ring of entropic deflection, or a broom of flying plus a lyre of building and heward's handy haversack, or...a lot of other stuff, it's a big chunk of change is the point.

[Yogibear41]

I played NG Dwarf Incarnate Tank once, got to level 9 before I retired the character, Was an Incarnate 4/Fighter 1/Iron Soul Forgemaster 4, main deal was being unkillable and smashing things with +3 Incarnate Warhammer backed up with lighting gauntlets.


https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=391925

few things might be jacked up on the sheet from the mythweavers update, the sheet is old.


Is my old character sheet if it will help give you some ideas.


I can see NG, LN, and NE being viable incarnate builds, but the CN Incarnate just seems terrible to me. In most situations I would encourage you to multiclass into something that helps you specialize in what you want to specialize in such as fighter or something.



Also made up a level 20 evil incarnate once for fun, but I have since deleted the sheet, mostly involved using a +5 Skillful Wrathful Healing Greatsword, with all the evil damage boosters and Cleric BAB from skillful for tons of damage and healing.

[Albions_Angel]

Also worth pointing out that if this is a normal game (and not the high-op games most of the posters on the playground take part in), then far from underpowered, an incarnate can dominate at low levels as a powerful beatstick. Especially if its low wealth or you somehow are without your equipment.

I dropped in a level 4 DMPC evil incarnate in to help my party when one of my players couldnt be there but we still needed a session. Incarnate Avatar, Incarnate Weapon and Crystal Helm meant that with no items, he was a powerhouse. In the end, I saved the PC and plan to play him when I am next a player and not a DM.

[Zaq]

I can see NG, LN, and NE being viable incarnate builds, but the CN Incarnate just seems terrible to me. In most situations I would encourage you to multiclass into something that helps you specialize in what you want to specialize in such as fighter or something.

I agree, having played one, that CN is probably the weakest Incarnate, but I don’t think it kills their viability as characters. Archery is undersupported and I don’t recommend investing heavily in it just because the Incarnate Avatar gives you a bonus to ranged attack rolls. All that really means is that you don’t bother with the IA and you just work with all your other melds.

Even if your Incarnum Radiance doesn’t align with the Incarnum Avatar (which you probably aren’t using), it aligns with the Cerulean Sandals (at least, I don’t think they conflict—AFB), and I actually think a just-in-time burst of speed is actually more likely to be relevant than a just-in-time bonus to melee attacks or whatever. After all, if you want to be in a certain square and you can reach it with a speed boost but you can’t reach it without that speed boost, you know that your speed boost mattered. That’s less knowable ahead of time for something based on a d20 roll. It might be the difference between success and failure, but you might still fail or might have succeeded anyway even without the bonus.

Also, Detect Law is fun for roleplaying when you’re doing weird stuff. It’s the best Detect to use when, for example, trying to gauge if someone might be willing to accept a bribe or might be willing to talk about less-than-fully-reputable topics. Sure, it’s not foolproof by any stretch, but I like it more than most of the other options.

(Technically, being CN also lets you use necrocarnum at the cost of a feat, but I have problems with that for fluff reasons.)

CN might have less self-synergy than the other options, but I wouldn’t write it off in any way.

[Speeddemon87]

Looking at it in more detail, yeah it looks like archery really isn't the best choice. With a terrible base attack bonus I really can't do well as an archer even with the soulmeld boosts. Even the most powerful bow isn't going to get me that much more damage than the Dissolving Spittle with throat bind and the costs for it are way too high. Could mortalbane work with soulmelds?


I do like the speed boost that I can get, and I can stack a lot of defensive abilities too, the difficulty just seems to lie in getting my damage boosted in the later levels. Necrocarnum would be nice, but I only noticed the feat for it after I made my character and had already dumped my wisdom score and a lot of Necrocarnum uses saving throws. It would still be nice to use them, I'm just not sure it's worth the cost of a feat given my ability scores.


My DM has cleared with me that I can work on making my own unique soulmelds and binds later, though he left a warning that too much tampering could damage the soul.

[Troacctid]

Could mortalbane work with soulmelds?
No, it only works on spell-like abilities. Soulmelds are (Su), not (Sp).


Necrocarnum would be nice, but I only noticed the feat for it after I made my character and had already dumped my wisdom score and a lot of Necrocarnum uses saving throws. It would still be nice to use them, I'm just not sure it's worth the cost of a feat given my ability scores.
Don't let saving throws faze you. Necrocarnum Circlet is the one you really want with that feat, and it doesn't have a save.

[Speeddemon87]

No, it only works on spell-like abilities. Soulmelds are (Su), not (Sp).


Don't let saving throws faze you. Necrocarnum Circlet is the one you really want with that feat, and it doesn't have a save.

Wow, that really sucks. They get all the worst of stuff for acting like spells or spell like abilities when interacting with other spells but none of the benefits from feats I could take. Is there any decent way to improve the damage on this one or other soulmelds?

Necrocarnum Circlet is a good one, but I'm not sure if it by itself is worth the feat.

[Troacctid]

Wow, that really sucks. They get all the worst of stuff for acting like spells or spell like abilities when interacting with other spells but none of the benefits from feats I could take. Is there any decent way to improve the damage on this one or other soulmelds?
You want stuff that boosts all damage rolls. The Lucky Dice soulmeld is a good start: +1 to hit and damage as a swift action, and if you bind it to your hands you can share it with your party too. Knowledge Devotion is another standby if you have the skills to support it (difficult for most Incarnates, though). Share Soulmeld is probably the biggest damage boost you can get (effectively an extra attack with Dissolving Spittle for each familiar you have), but it requires you to build around it a little.


Necrocarnum Circlet is a good one, but I'm not sure if it by itself is worth the feat.
It is one of the strongest soulmelds, but I agree that I wouldn't necessarily spend a feat and give up a soulmeld + bind slot for it on top of that. (Just a feat would be great though; Leadership effects are usually pretty strong.)

[Kelb_Panthera]

Wow, that really sucks. They get all the worst of stuff for acting like spells or spell like abilities when interacting with other spells but none of the benefits from feats I could take. Is there any decent way to improve the damage on this one or other soulmelds?

Necrocarnum Circlet is a good one, but I'm not sure if it by itself is worth the feat.

All I've got is empower supernatural ability from Tome of Magic. At only once per day per instance of the feat taken, it's not the greatest.

[Fizban]

My DM has cleared with me that I can work on making my own unique soulmelds and binds later, though he left a warning that too much tampering could damage the soul.

As usual, I don't know your DM, but that sounds like some bull. First off because incarnum is soulstuff you wear, not your own personal soul (that would be Binders putting vestiges on their souls), and second because I've literally never seen anyone suggest that a spellcaster must worry about the risks of inventing new spells. Unless they're planning on holding you to a "global soulmelds known" list to avoid the uncapped wizard/erudite spells known problem, in which case there are plenty of melds you can junk to make room anyway- and they'd best be doing something similar with the Cleric and Druid who offend even more in that aspect.

If you're allowed to research new melds, good. The worst part about Dissolving Spittle isn't the effect, it's the fact that it's so boring and takes so long (14th freaking level, seriously!?) to ever improve. A couple new melds in the interim can fix that right up. Here's the two I made, in full format with italicized flavor text even.

Pyromancer's Flame
Descriptors: Fire
Classes: Incarnate
Chakra: Hands, Arms
Saving Throw: Reflex Half.
A tiny spark of the first flame coaxes to life in your hand and ignites the incarnum shaped to fuel it.
Often called the "pyro glove" due to its popular hand bind, this soulmeld actually manifests as a small flame in the palm of either hand. It is no stronger than a candle and appears or disappears as quickly as thought.
-With a standard action you can stoke the flame to combust your enemies, filling a 5' cube in your reach with fire that deals 1d6 damage with a reflex save for half.
-Essentia: each point of essentia increases the damage by 1d6.

Chakra Bind (Hands)
The flame grows stronger and brighter.
As a standard action you can throw a ball of fire somewhere within 30'. You make a ranged touch attack to hit the target intersection, and if you miss the ball deviates as a splash weapon. Wherever it impacts it explodes in a 5' radius burst dealing 1d6 fire damage, reflex half.
-Essentia: each point of essentia increases the damage by 1d6.

Chakra Bind (Arms)
A roiling chaos can be seen if you gaze deep within the flame.
You can unshape the soulmeld to launch a wide area fireball as a standard action. It explodes in a 20' radius spread at any point within 100', dealing 3d6 fire damage, reflex half.
-Essentia: each point of essentia increases the damage by 3d6.


Snow Mittens
Descriptors: Cold
Classes: Incarnate
Chakra: Hands, Arms, Soul
Saving Throw: See text
Drawing upon millenia of children's snowball fights, you shape incarnum into what looks like a pair of warm gloves.
Tired of the Dissolving Spittle meld's horrible aftertaste and connection to terrible people, not satisfied with the chaotic flames of the pyromancer, one incarnate searched for another answer. He shaped the laughter of children and the quiet deaths of those lost to the cold into a weapon with more potential.
-Snow Mittens let you throw a ball of cold energy as a ranged touch attack (max 30', no increment), dealing 1d3 points of cold damage. You can throw as many as you want from either hand as part of a full attack, and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal.
-Essentia: investing essentia increases the damage to 1d6 per point of essentia.

Charka Bind (Hands)
The insubstantial gloves solidify over your hands, keeping them warm and dry.
Binding Snow Mittens to your hands unlocks the second attack of the snow-warrior: dumping it right down your opponent's shirt. As a standard action you can make a touch attack to deal 1d6 points of cold damage. Targets struck must then make a fortitude save or take an additional 1d6.
-Essentia: damage for the initial attack and failed fort save increases by 1d6 per point of essentia.

Chakra Bind (Arms)
Long gloves cover your arms to the elbow allowing you to wrap your arms around bigger and bigger snowballs. . . You place the last ball of powdered incarnum up on top and your creation springs to life, ready to defend you.
While shaping your melds for the day you may also create a snowman. It has the statistics of a Large Animated Object with with no legs or hardness, it can Blind people in its snowy embrace and Trample them with its compacted bottom. While vulnerable to fire it is immune to cold, and instead heals 1 point of damage for every 3 points of cold damage it ignores. You can command your snowman as long as you are within 60' and it can see and hear you, otherwise it continues following your last orders. If the snowman is destroyed you can make a new one with 10 minutes and a sufficient pile of snow, otherwise you must wait until the next time you shape soulmelds.
-Essentia: each point of essentia adds 1d6 cold damage to the snowman's attacks (including Trample).

Chakra Bind (Soul)
The shaped incarnum crystallizes into a humanoid scultpure, joints cracking as it begins to move.
The soul bind functions as the arms, except instead of a snowman you create a full fledged Ice Golem (Frostburn).
-Essentia: each point of essentia adds 1d6 cold damage to the Ice Golem's slam atacks and Ice Shards ability and increases the save DC of Ice Shards by 1.

Yes the pyro glove gives an "AoE". Blame whoever came up with Reserve feats for setting the bar, and remember that the Totemist gets AoEs as soon as they hit 2nd thanks to Lammasu Mantle.

Incidentally, that's one of the most annoying things about trying to brew for incarnum: Totemists essentially get everything, because they can rip off any magical beast they want, attaching abilities to whatever binds the meld designer wants. Incarnates seem to be defined almost entirely by not getting things the Toemist does: no 3/4 BAB, no natural weapons, only two energy attacks with no real substance behind them, most of their melds hardly have any binds, and so on. I wrote a whole pile of Totemist melds without even trying (making the class even better simply via more options), but the Incarnate's defining feature really seems to be being bad.

That said, having experience with Power of Cybernetics (homebrew cybernetics with the same basic mechanic), I know full well how easy it is to overpower without even trying. I think these melds should provide variety, but not too much variety- the pyo glove always has a reflex save, the snow mittens require successive attacks and outdated creatures, and of course both are more commonly resisted energy types. But then I do have a feat for that:

Soulspark Companion
Prequisite: Able to shape Soulspark Familiar.
Benefit: Choose a class that allows you to shape Soulspark Familiar. When shaped, it gains the following benefits based on your level in that class.

Class Level BonusHD, Special
1st-2nd
+0 HD, Companion Range 10'/level
3rd-5th
+1 HD
6th-8th
+2 HD, Multiblast
9th-11th
+3 HD, Rapid Shot
12th-14th
+4 HD, Shape Soulmeld
15th-17th
+5 HD, Bind Least Chakras
18th-20th
+6 HD, Bind Lesser Chakras

HD: Non-cumulative bonus hit dice (note that advanced binds have higher starting hit dice).
Companion Range: Your soulspark may end its turn up to 10'/level away from you without unshaping the soulmeld.
Multiblast: Allows the soulspark to make full attacks with its soul blast attack, gaining extra attacks from BAB and other sources as if it were a ranged weapon.
Rapid Shot: As a bonus feat.
Shape Soulmeld: you may shape one of your soulmelds onto your soulspark directly, allowing it to use the meld. When you invest essentia into your soulspark, you can choose to invest it in the granted soulmeld instead of the usual options.
Bind Least Chakras: You can bind the soulmeld shaped on your soulspark to one of the least chakras (crown, feet, hands).
Bind Lesser Charkas: You can bind the soulmelds shaped on your soulspark to one of the lesser chakras (arms, brow, shoulders)


Dark Souls [Incarnum]
Prerequisites: Con 13, Int 11, Wis 11
Benefit: You may infuse a soulmeld with the dark, weighty essence of humanity. At the beginning of the day, you can invest essentia into this feat. For each point of essentia invested, choose either a base soulmeld effect or a chakra bind effect of a soulmeld you have shaped. Energy damage dealt by the chosen effects loses its type and is no longer reduced or multiplied by energy resistance, immunity, or vulnerability. You also gain a +1 bonus on meldshaper level checks to bypass spell resistance per point of essentia invested in the soulmeld, which applies even if the chosen effect doesn't normally deal energy damage. Once the amount of essentia invested in this feat is chosen, it cannot be altered and remains invested for 24 hours.

Soulspark Companion is the answer to Necrocarnum Circlet- even with bonus HD and multiple attacks a soulspark is still nothing special, but at least it's actually worth binding past 2nd. For context, I did use the soulspark for utility of a sort when I played, but I did so specifically by leveraging the loophole that medium creatures can't automatically enter a tiny creature's space, and by having it attack me to shake me out of a Deep Slumber. For anything other than those two functions soulsparks are garbage, and it makes me mad how much better Necrocarnum Circlet is.

Dark Souls is just the obvious name for a feat that's meant to bypass resistances with things that are made of souls and for which I've specfically written a dark souls pyromancer meld. The spell penetration bonus is pretty critical when you're relying on damage that's par with other classes, except they don't have to deal with spell resistance.

None of the above have received any live testing of course, but it shouldn't be hard to evaluate them and bring them in gradually if/when you want/need them. The gestalt game where I had incarnate wasn't exactly high power, but the soulspark was still terrible. By contrast the game where I used Power of Cybernetics as a deliberate downgrade from my previous character (of a different homebrew class), well it was still pretty massively overpowered- the melds I've designed here were done with that in mind, and I'm fairly certain had I been an Incarnate with this stuff it would have been fine.


I'd still recommend asking for my general class tweaks: Even if you don't want to ask for 3/4 BAB or the ability to use magic items under binds without a feat, getting rid of the Incarnum Focii tax and instead smoothing out the essentia curve with a class bonus, rewarding you for staying in-class in a level zone where you'd otherwise be better off multiclassing/PrCing out and using feats instead, is just a no-brainer. Moving those other features up a level at the same time makes everything smoother, and it's just nice.

(I also went back and fixed and table-ized it so it's readable).

[Troacctid]

I endorse all of that homebrew. ☝️

[Speeddemon87]

As usual, I don't know your DM, but that sounds like some bull. First off because incarnum is soulstuff you wear, not your own personal soul (that would be Binders putting vestiges on their souls), and second because I've literally never seen anyone suggest that a spellcaster must worry about the risks of inventing new spells. Unless they're planning on holding you to a "global soulmelds known" list to avoid the uncapped wizard/erudite spells known problem, in which case there are plenty of melds you can junk to make room anyway- and they'd best be doing something similar with the Cleric and Druid who offend even more in that aspect.

Well the exact quote is this {i'm definitely into the idea of you eventually developing your own soulmelds, however, I would advise caution for any being that tinkers too deeply with their own soul, with that in which their very spirit resides. It would be tragic if something...irreversible were to occur}. I'm not sure how much leeway that will allow but I'm hoping that as long as I don't go too crazy with how I build my soulmelds it'll be fine. It isn't as good as what the tier 1 casters get but it's still more than baseline Incarnate's get. Still I'll try to talk to him and get the specifics of how that would work.



Yes the pyro glove gives an "AoE". Blame whoever came up with Reserve feats for setting the bar, and remember that the Totemist gets AoEs as soon as they hit 2nd thanks to Lammasu Mantle.

Incidentally, that's one of the most annoying things about trying to brew for incarnum: Totemists essentially get everything, because they can rip off any magical beast they want, attaching abilities to whatever binds the meld designer wants. Incarnates seem to be defined almost entirely by not getting things the Toemist does: no 3/4 BAB, no natural weapons, only two energy attacks with no real substance behind them, most of their melds hardly have any binds, and so on. I wrote a whole pile of Totemist melds without even trying (making the class even better simply via more options), but the Incarnate's defining feature really seems to be being bad.

Those are all awesome, thank you. I'll definitely suggest them to my GM (and I agree it's really weird and lame that there are no AoE effects from their naturally). I agree the Incarnates are weird in that way. I don't think their theme is being worse, it's just a bit more scattered, though there does seem to be a minor focus on the planes with some of them (Planar ward, Planar chasuble, Incarnate avatar) and some alignment based stuff. They dip into so many different areas its hard to get as precise an idea on what it is exactly they do.

I have some of my own ideas which are far rougher in design than your, but I'll post them here so everyone can tell me what they think of them. I was mostly going for whatever popped into my head and some ideas involving the higher binds like Heart and Soul because those are rarer than some of the other melds (and also the soul ones tend to suck for the most part which is the exact opposite of what you want from a 19th level ability). I hadn't gotten to consistent damage dealing ones yet but it looks like I don't have to with Fiizban's :smallsmile:.

Sash of the Zephyr (chaotic): Can create a burst of wind with a power of 10km/hr within 30ft, speed of wind and power used to push (including making ranged bull rush check) based on essential invested – Shoulders (Freedom of Movement) & Heart (tornado DMG weather effect centered around self, 10ft radius around self where there are no storm effects)

Ying-Yang Mirror: Allows you to shape one soulmeld of a different alignment, bonus to saving throws against effects with keywords of alignments opposed to your own equal to essentia invested – Waist (Any positive or negative energy affect directed at self can be stored for a number of rounds equal to essentia invested and if stored can be dispersed as a standard action afterwards), Heart (Shape a number of soulmelds of different alignments equal to essentia invested ), & Soul (Reflect any positive or negative energy effect back at the one trying to effect you and once per day you can target any enemy with the effect off a mirror of opposition, no saving throw)

Clogs of stone: Ignore damage from ground based obstacles and terrain feature, ignore a square of difficult terrain per essentia invested – Feet: Gain Tremorsense 5 and Reduce speed by 5 for every point of essentia invested

Discordant Note: Use ghost sound at will, Bonus to Perform checks of 2x essential invested – Crown (can inspire courage like a bard with a number of uses per day and bonus based on meldshaper level instead of bard level, courage effect lasts as long as sung plus essentia invested rounds afterwards [essential cannot be relocated from this meld while it is in effect]), Throat (1d4 sonic damage plus 1d4 per essentia invested in a 30ft burst around self, Fortitude save half), Soul (Can sing and cause everyone else that hears it to be affected by Otto’s irresistible dance, mind affect ability, can be used a number of times per day equal to Meldshaper level divided by five, dance effect can be sustained a number of rounds equal to Essentia invested)

Void Cloak: Provide a penalty to other listen checks within 30ft, increased by essentia invested – Shoulders (Greater invisibility as a standard action, lasts 1+ essentia invested rounds and ability can be used meldshaper level number of times per day), Soul (Pulls in everyone within 30ft +30ft times essentia invested, Fortitude save to resist or pulled in 10x essentia invested, then annihilates everything in burst of 10x essentia feet doing 12d6 x essentia invested dmg to everything in burst, including meldshaper, no saving throw, activating this ability unshapes Void Cloak)

Berserker Badge: Can remain conscious and take a single action every round while in the negative hit points before being dead, invest essentia to gain the ability to take essentia invested damage on and attack and gain a bonus to the dmg roll equal to three times the life lost – Heart (Can delay death caused from negative hitpoints for a number of rounds equal to essentia invested, if still below death value by the end of this time, dies instantly. Also able to take full round of actions while at negative hitpoints)

Scintillating Headband (chaotic): Gain random energy resistance 5 (cold, fire, electric, acid, sonic, force, negative, untyped) based on d8 roll, with +5 resistance for every essential point invested – Crown (spend an immediate action to force a reroll of resistance granted or force selected type to stay for another 1d4 rounds), Brow (Become immune to blindness and gain +4 bonus to saving throws against gaze attacks)

Crushing Lodestone (Lawful): As a touch attack you can double the weight that a target is carrying, save negates. Effect lasts essentia +1 rounds and against a chaotic target the weight is quadrupled instead and the duration double it’s regular length – Arms (While a target is affected they take 2d6 damage per round and become unable to move from that spot if they become encumbered or worse from the weight increase) - [I]Note this one is more like an enemy stand that could be inflicted on someone else than the regular meld ideas but I thought it was an interesting idea

Fluid Chains (Lawful or Chaotic): Effect changes based on whether it is lawful or chaotic as chosen by alignment of the meldshaper that make it; Lawful Gain a +2 bonus to grapple checks times the amount of essentia invested, Chaotic +1 to dexterity based skill checks times essentia invested – Lawful Arms (Chains entangle enemies in a cone in front of you like the web spell, can make str vs str checks to pull an entangled enemy closer), Chaotic Arms (Reach is increased by 10ft, gain a bonus to climb checks), Lawful Heart (Connect with a number of allies equal to essential invested granting an insight bonus to initiative checks, will saves, fort saves, atk rolls, and DR/Chaotic to all those connected, equal to the number of people connected. All those connected also can give a +5 instead of +2 bonus with any aid another check and can communicate telepathically with each other. Anyone connected who fails a non-harmless will or fortitude causes all others connected to be affected by it, once essentia is invested in this meld it cannot be uninvested), Chaotic Heart (Gain the slippery mind trait and your body reshapes itself back to it’s original form after 1 round, undoing any polymorph, shape altering, or bleeding effect on the meldshaper)

Stellar Shroud: The aura of your soul is vast and swells outward in fathomless directions, confusing any detect spells. For alignment detect spells always treating your aura as overwhelming level and as if it was 4 HD higher for the purpose of stunning a target (and can stun them regardless of their own alignment). For every point of essential invested you gain a bonus on meldshaper level whenever meldshaper level would be used in the place of caster level for interacting with an effect – Soul (With a standard action you can take yourself and an opponent within 100ft into a featureless infinite demiplane based on your soul for a number of rounds equal to essentia invested before you both return to your original locations (or as near to them if they are now occupied). After you return the ability cannot be used for a number of rounds equal to the rounds it was active and essentia cannot be moved from this meld until you are able to use this ability again



Soulspark Companion is the answer to Necrocarnum Circlet- even with bonus HD and multiple attacks a soulspark is still nothing special, but at least it's actually worth binding past 2nd. For context, I did use the soulspark for utility of a sort when I played, but I did so specifically by leveraging the loophole that medium creatures can't automatically enter a tiny creature's space, and by having it attack me to shake me out of a Deep Slumber. For anything other than those two functions soulsparks are garbage, and it makes me mad how much better Necrocarnum Circlet is.

Those are great, I really like the soulspark familiar and wanted to find a way to make it work and this is it, thank you, definitely recommending this as well and hoping the GM accepts it.

[DeTess]

Well the exact quote is this {i'm definitely into the idea of you eventually developing your own soulmelds, however, I would advise caution for any being that tinkers too deeply with their own soul, with that in which their very spirit resides. It would be tragic if something...irreversible were to occur}. I'm not sure how much leeway that will allow but I'm hoping that as long as I don't go too crazy with how I build my soulmelds it'll be fine. It isn't as good as what the tier 1 casters get but it's still more than baseline Incarnate's get. Still I'll try to talk to him and get the specifics of how that would work.


I suspect that's the GM's way of saying 'I reserve the right to (un)break your character if you try to use your inventions to break the game', but best to check and make sure.

[Fizban]

I endorse all of that homebrew. ☝️
Thanks!


I have some of my own ideas
Soulmelds don't require as many format lines as spells repeating the same thing over, but they usually end up needing some very precise language to make sure all the moving parts work as intended.

Sash of Zephyr: don't see why this is chaotic. 20kmh is barely any wind at all, would not force bull rush. I'd expect a wind generating meld to go straight off of wind effects and just assign them based on bind, using soulmeld saving throw. Can't remember what bind level Freedom of Movement is already priced at, if any. Depending on the size, concentrating or unshaping to make a tornado might actually be appropriate for top level, while severe (Gust of Wind speed) would work at 9th.

Ying-yang: something to fudge one opposite aligment sounds interesting, fudging more is just greedy (and there's hardly any to begin with aside from necrocarnum). Reflecting energy is cool and appropriately high level, but things that attack with positive or negative energy usually absorb it, so you need to reverse it first or stipulate that they take the effect regardless of immunities. Mirror of Opposition should be an artifact, and using it as a player in any fashion is something the DM should be setting up if they want it.

Clogs of Stone: just ignoring all falling damage is more than a basic shaping effect (edit: I say that, but Peg Cloak actually is full Feather Fall). No other ground based terrain effects really deal damage, unless you're meaning to ignore Spike Stones. Can't use resist or DR language, but ignore 3*essentia would be fine. Ignoring difficult terrain sounds like a bind to me.

Void Cloak: penalty on listen checks is interesting, should probably have a note that those affected know something's up so it doesn't just super boost stealth. Meldshaper level is a *lot* of uses per day. Since it's likely cribbing from Shadow Mantle, swift action in rounds per day seems more appropriate. As amusing as suicide moves are, I don't think it makes sense on a soulmeld. The number of d6's is such that the unshaping only happens if you deliberately lower it so it won't kill you, and then it's too wide a different. Mostly seems like it's trying to be too clever while sneaking in a wide area no-save attack.

Berserker Badge: taking damage to deal damage already has an example in Divine Sacrifice, which originally traded 2hp for 1d6 conserved on misses. I'd say this should also be dice so they don't multiply. Swift action, attack bonus only lasts for one attack but damage bonus stays until you hit. Make a schedule of dice based on hp: 1/1d4, 2/1d6, 3/1d10, 4/2d6, 5/2d8, 6/2d10. Damage cannot be reduced or converted, nor recovered by fast healing. Delay Death effect needs something to prevent you from pogoing without penalty, another good candidate for rounds/level/day.

Prismatic Headband: this basically reads "pick your resistance" since you can just wait until it hits the one you want then mash the continue button. Either it's going to be too random, or it's not going to be random enough- a nice idea for something chaotic, but I don't think it'll work.

Crushing Lodestone: almost useless against monster, usefulness against people depends on too many factors. How about increasing effective encumbrance by one step, and the damage effect happens if they go beyond heavy, with greater binds providing more steps? As a weight thing the obvious save is fort, but curses are will. Note that winged flyers generally can't fly past a light load.

Fluid Chains: bunch of reasonable abilities all jumbled together, I'd say un-jumble them. Cone of Web needs to be far more specific, since Web itself is a weird spell with lots of conditions. Once the effect is sorted out I like putting a chains per day= level limit on there, Entangling Breath seems to have made far too many people okay with just putting entangling on everything forever.

Stellar Shroud: I'm surprisingly cool with most of this, but it's pretty important whether that featureless infinite void has things like featureless infinite surface or air. I'd make it mind crush Detect Magic too, if only Detect Magic had the overwhelming stun.

[Speeddemon87]

Thanks that advice helps quite a bit.

Yeah I should fiddle around with the Sash to make it make more sense and just copy some of the appropriate spells. I don't think Freedom of movement is given a bind level in the main book, but 9th might be a little low, I'll rework that one. I guess tornado is a little too strong for heart, I could lower it to hurricane or up the bind to soul if I leave it at tornado being created through concentration, that idea sounds good.

Right, I actually meant to add the bypass immunities or reverse the effect on the ying yang but forgot about it. Mirror of opposition should probably have some more limitations on it, but it's not an artifact item, it only costs 92,000 gp. And yeah I guess there isn't really a need to use multiple soulmelds against type, I'll try to come up with something new for that bind.

Good points on the damage resist on the clogs. Spike stones was what I was thinking of but I also meant for it to resist stuff like caltrops but didn't write that in right. Ignoring difficult terrain is too much by itself, yeah probably worth a bind.

Void cloak was trying to get a no save burst too much, the soul bind will be completely reworked

Why shouldn't the damage on the Badge be healable by fast healing? I get why you have to take the damage in the first place (which is why it only work based on the life you lost using it) but why can't fast healing fix it. Fast healing can fix regular damage and is pretty hard to get.

Ugh, that's the problem with all the chaotic stuff, it's either too random to be worthwhile or too orderly to be chaotic

That sounds like a good fix to the lodestone, I might also make the higher binds add making it a ranged attack

The limit on amount of times used makes sense otherwise it's too spamable and yeah the details on it need to be sorted out, that was just to give a rough idea of what the effect would be like. What do you mean by unjumble them exactly?

Yes the infinite surface was meant to have air and the like in it (even if it wouldn't last anyone long enough to suffocate them). I wish it did as well, I could add it as part of the soulmeld that it forces the same thing on them as it does on detect alignment. Actually instead of a +4, I could make it that the bonus is based on the number of other soulmelds I have shaped so it scales a little.

[Fizban]

Mirror of opposition should probably have some more limitations on it, but it's not an artifact item, it only costs 92,000 gp.
I said should be an artifact: there is no price at which being able to create an evil opposite of anyone is appropriate. Even Simulacrum has some pretense at limitations, and look at what people do with that.

Why shouldn't the damage on the Badge be healable by fast healing? I get why you have to take the damage in the first place (which is why it only work based on the life you lost using it) but why can't fast healing fix it. Fast healing can fix regular damage and is pretty hard to get.
Because healing is cheap and easy, and the ways that you can get fast healing are ludicrously effective. Draconic Aura (Vigor) means once you pass 50% you might as well turn it up. The Vigor spells are generally bad in combat because you'll waste some of them, but this turns them into massive attack+damage buffs that also heal you up after. Millenial Chainmail is just fast healing 3 all the time for anyone willing to make a character using it. It's just not worth leaving the exploit open, so it doesn't have to come up. This is also where the precise language comes in: many existing soulmelds are specifically written to cut off (or allow) certain combos, so something that lets you pay hp for a benefit ought to address fee automatic healing in the text.

Ugh, that's the problem with all the chaotic stuff, it's either too random to be worthwhile or too orderly to be chaotic
The solution is less randomness and more drawing from [chaotic] creatures- which as people love pointing out, are usually very predictable. If you want to steal evil stuff, the "totally not evil it's chaotic neutral man" demons from FC2 are pretty nightmarish. Penalties from madness or otherwise offending order don't have to be random.

The limit on amount of times used makes sense otherwise it's too spamable and yeah the details on it need to be sorted out, that was just to give a rough idea of what the effect would be like. What do you mean by unjumble them exactly?
It's clearly a bunch of stuff written to fill in the idea of a reversible law/chaos chain meld, rather than abilities written to make sense together (or if it really wasn't, that's what it feels like to me). So I'd suggest taking the various ideas and making them into melds that make sense on their own. Chains of Law is definitely a solid theme, but chains don't really have any relation to chaos except when they're broken. Might be a good place to move the Freedom of Movement effect.

I wish [detect magic stunned on overwhelming] as well, I could add it as part of the soulmeld that it forces the same thing on them as it does on detect alignment. Actually instead of a +4, I could make it that the bonus is based on the number of other soulmelds I have shaped so it scales a little.
Nah, too forced. Better to con the DM into adding it to Detect Magic first (makes Arcane Sight more interesting in that the DM can go surprise artifact! and stun you too, but you also get instant notification).

[Speeddemon87]

I said should be an artifact: there is no price at which being able to create an evil opposite of anyone is appropriate. Even Simulacrum has some pretense at limitations, and look at what people do with that.

It is slightly more limited because it doesn't really work for you in any way, just exists to defeat it's counterpart and then if either of them die it's gone


Because healing is cheap and easy, and the ways that you can get fast healing are ludicrously effective. Draconic Aura (Vigor) means once you pass 50% you might as well turn it up. The Vigor spells are generally bad in combat because you'll waste some of them, but this turns them into massive attack+damage buffs that also heal you up after. Millenial Chainmail is just fast healing 3 all the time for anyone willing to make a character using it. It's just not worth leaving the exploit open, so it doesn't have to come up. This is also where the precise language comes in: many existing soulmelds are specifically written to cut off (or allow) certain combos, so something that lets you pay hp for a benefit ought to address fee automatic healing in the text.

I'd get that if the ability could be used in some out of combat situations, but if your taking damage in combat then that puts you closer to death, stacking on with the damage you'd be taking normally. You can get fast healing and take less damage then you would normally or do a bit more damage with this soulmeld but take some as well so you aren't getting as much of a benefit from fast healing.


The solution is less randomness and more drawing from [chaotic] creatures- which as people love pointing out, are usually very predictable. If you want to steal evil stuff, the "totally not evil it's chaotic neutral man" demons from FC2 are pretty nightmarish. Penalties from madness or otherwise offending order don't have to be random.

Alright, I'll look into those.


It's clearly a bunch of stuff written to fill in the idea of a reversible law/chaos chain meld, rather than abilities written to make sense together (or if it really wasn't, that's what it feels like to me). So I'd suggest taking the various ideas and making them into melds that make sense on their own. Chains of Law is definitely a solid theme, but chains don't really have any relation to chaos except when they're broken. Might be a good place to move the Freedom of Movement effect.

Somewhat wanted it to be reversible, similar to the Incarnate avatar, somewhat wanted it to be the same soulmeld so I couldn't have both active at once with the Ying Yang Mirror (The heart bind of chaos covers a fair bit of the drawback on the law side). I choose chains because they can be used to bind and lock things down and also because they're flexible and swinging a chain around has a far more wild feel to it than many other weapons (that and it's somewhat justifiable that they could be worn like most other melds). Freedom of movement might be a good one to move there.


Nah, too forced. Better to con the DM into adding it to Detect Magic first (makes Arcane Sight more interesting in that the DM can go surprise artifact! and stun you too, but you also get instant notification).

I'll check on that, the idea makes sense and I think it would be cool.

[Fizban]

It is slightly more limited because it doesn't really work for you in any way, just exists to defeat it's counterpart and then if either of them die it's gone.
Right, it's an effect that basically reads "anyone who looks at this has a 50/50 chance of dying unless they specifically knew to be prepared for it by having allies around the corner who haven't looked at it." Which while bad enough, is even worse if you can carry it around and spring it on people with no warning. It lacks any clauses to prevent control, so it can be cheesed simply by Dominating the clone and using it for your own purposes. In short, it's a legacy item carried over because it was a cool trap in previous editions, except someone put a price tag on it when they shouldn't have.

As always, if you guys think it's fine then go for it, but you'll not convince me to support anything that puts that effect in player hands (and even a DM will get an earful if I think they're using it poorly).

The best substitute I can think of with limited potential for abuse would be say, something that targets an outsider and summons one of the four outsiders listed in the bind based on opposing alignment, to fight the target. These would include the usual clause for fights until one or the other is killed, with additional cannot be compelled or detained in any way clauses so that they can't be siphoned off for something else. Picking the outsiders would be the hardest part, and their power by necessity won't be anywhere near an even match with level appropriate creatures (that Ice Golem on my Snow Mittens is no powerhouse).

I'd get that if the ability could be used in some out of combat situations, but if your taking damage in combat then that puts you closer to death, stacking on with the damage you'd be taking normally. You can get fast healing and take less damage then you would normally or do a bit more damage with this soulmeld but take some as well so you aren't getting as much of a benefit from fast healing.
If you're fighting solo and thus taking all the damage yourself, maybe. But you're not fighting solo- you're part of an adventuring party, so you might not even be taking damage yourself, and other party members can heal you, and you only have to do your 1/4 share of the damage to finish the fight. Much as I don't like the nerf (espeically when they jacked up so many other spells), I can see why they made the SpC version of Divine Sacrifice mandatory 10 damage per swing on every swing, every swing you make till the spell is over. Being able to choose when you take small amounts of damage essentially means that damage matter faaar less than if you had no control over it.

The goal of course is that you wanted a more universally applicable and powerful attack+damage booster, and hp damage sounds like it can offset that. If you think the bonuses are already fine and the damage is just there to justify the universality, then it's a fine bit of possibly inconveniencing fluff, and your DM may agree. I think the bonuses are too strong, so I'd match it to the pre-nerf Divine Sacrifice (which still doesn't have an attack bonus so the meld is still better) and close any loopholes for free healing. It's still a very minor change in the end, but usually when someone's fighting to leave a combo open I figure that means it's safer closed. And remember this isn't something that will be used by pure incarnates with low hp: every soulmeld is easily available for anyone with dips or feats.

(Alternate damage cost to consider is Blade of Blood, which gets you 1d6 for a 1st level slot, or 3d6 for the slot and 5hp. That's 5 per ~7 conversion.)

somewhat wanted it to be the same soulmeld so I couldn't have both active at once with the Ying Yang Mirror
Disallowing the combination of certain effects is a good thing to think about, naturally accomplished by tying things to the same bind slot- though the Double Chakra feat gets around this, for a feat. That's also a reason to consider having fewer binds on some melds, since if a meld only has one chakra, you can't combine it with anything else in that chakra. Dissolving Spittle's lack of bind variety also means it can't be used with anything else that needs to go in the throat slot, and if meld A that you really want has taken up one slot which pushes meld B into the throat because A took it's only other option, now you can't use Dissolvoing Spittle. Which may in fact be an intentional limitation on it's power, though obviously I disagreed with that by making offensive melds with more binds.

For contrast, Power of Cybernetics does away with the choosing of slots for the basic effects at all. This means you have a simple baseline assumption for the base effect of every meld: they're all usable together, period, and then you specifically wall of certain abilities from each other by focusing on the binds, which are selected with a much greater focus on that exclusivity/expected level than a lot of the MoI melds which are concerning themselves with body part appropriateness (PoC's modules and sockets cyber stuff fuzzes that all out nicely). It's a lot easier to keep track of and probably wouldn't cause any problems with the MoI melds, but it's not a change I'd want to put down as a blanket fix without checking everything first (and that's a looot of cross-referencing a looot of moving pieces). They got a bit more complicated than they should have there.