Arcane Trickster / Wizard multiclass; looking for advice

[kabraxis]

Hey guys. I'm currently playing an Arcane Trickster (lvl 5 atm) and want to multiclass into wizard. I was thinking about going AT 9 (for magical ambush) / Wiz 11 (to get up to lvl 6 spells), but I'm afraid that I might be gimping my melee fighting too much doing this. What do you guys think? Anyone have some experience on that? It's very likely that we will get to lvl 20 in this campaign, but I've never played anything over lvl 10, so I'm a bit in the fence here, since I don't know if this will make my melee worthless at high lvls, and I don't want to be forced to stay back being pretty much a lvl 11 wizard that can hide - I want to actually be in the thick of melee combat, even if I'm not the best at it, while still having some awesome backup spells.

I don't care about being a super optimized killing machine but I don't want to weigh down the party either. Is this viable or will I be too weak to melee and not a good enough caster to be impactful? Other options would be to go AT 11 / Wiz 9, lose access to lvl 6 spells but get reliable talent, an extra ASI and +1d6 sneak damage... very cool class feat which I'd really like to get but I don't think it's strong enough to be a tipping point of "this is definitely much stronger than going wizard 11, get this or you're weak", and I don't think 1d6 extra sneak damage will matter too much in the late game. The ASI is nice, but at that point, is it really worth it losing lvl 6 spellcasting (even if limited) for that? Could also just do a lvl 2, 3 or 4 dip in wizard, but would really rather go higher into wizard.

Any input is appreciated!

edited to remove a ton of unnecessary info, but if anyone wants some more info on the character to give a more specific answer, just lemme know!

[CTurbo]

Tell us more about your character like race and stats etc

Arcane Trickster/Bladesinger can be a great combo. Either 9/11 or 11/9

I could see Arcane Trickster/Abjurer being pretty good too.

Of course Illusionist and Enchanter are kinda obvious options

[kabraxis]

It's a human variant, took Magic Initiate as a starting feat for roleplay reasons + some extra utility + give some meaning as to why he'd turn into an Arcane Trickster (the DM follows the line of "randomly learning spells because you killed enough goblins to get to lvl 3 is weird" - and I agree with that, just to be clear - so it was one way I thought about why I'd have an affinity to magic rather than finding out a spellcasting NPC or something to train me).

Current stats are 8 Str, 18 Dex, 14 Con, 16 Int, 10 Wis, 8 Cha

I'm pretty set on going for the Enchanting arcane tradition for thematic reasons. The character is a bit of a guilty pleasure fun character for me, heavily inspired on the Uchiha from Naruto (sorry for invoking anime into this, but I watched it when I was growing up so I'm nostalgic about it haha). If you haven't watched it, basically they are magical ninjas (so arcane trickster checks out). The Uchiha, specifically, are innately very good with fire magic (so firebolt, fireball, etc) and they have magical eyes called the Sharingan, which allows them to easily read their enemies movements - great for melee fighting (which is how I fluff Shield, for example; I can easily see my opponent's attack, so I get a huge AC bonus because I can more easily dodge or block it) and also gives them some powerful genjutsu - illusions that function just like DnD Enchantments and the Phantasm line of illusion spells, basically. The Hypnotic Gaze from the Enchanting Tradition fits PERFECTLY with it, along with some other spells (hypnotic pattern lvl 3, dominate person lvl 5, and even though it's necromancy Eyebite at lvl 6 - which is a big reason for me to want to get up to wizard 11).

So basically, lots of enchantment / illusions and some back up utility and offensive spells, but still in a melee-heavy build. I don't want to sit back and be just throwing spells for the whole fight, which is why I'm afraid of investing too heavily into wizard and then being too weak up close, but for fluff reasons I really want to go wizard 11 or at least wizard 9, though if it would seem to be too weak I could settle on a small wizard dip for the extra utility / spells known / Hypnotic Gaze.

[Citan]

It's a human variant, took Magic Initiate as a starting feat for roleplay reasons + some extra utility + give some meaning as to why he'd turn into an Arcane Trickster (the DM follows the line of "randomly learning spells because you killed enough goblins to get to lvl 3 is weird" - and I agree with that, just to be clear - so it was one way I thought about why I'd have an affinity to magic rather than finding out a spellcasting NPC or something to train me).

Current stats are 8 Str, 18 Dex, 14 Con, 16 Int, 10 Wis, 8 Cha

I'm pretty set on going for the Enchanting arcane tradition for thematic reasons. The character is a bit of a guilty pleasure fun character for me, heavily inspired on the Uchiha from Naruto (sorry for invoking anime into this, but I watched it when I was growing up so I'm nostalgic about it haha). If you haven't watched it, basically they are magical ninjas (so arcane trickster checks out). The Uchiha, specifically, are innately very good with fire magic (so firebolt, fireball, etc) and they have magical eyes called the Sharingan, which allows them to easily read their enemies movements - great for melee fighting (which is how I fluff Shield, for example; I can easily see my opponent's attack, so I get a huge AC bonus because I can more easily dodge or block it) and also gives them some powerful genjutsu - illusions that function just like DnD Enchantments and the Phantasm line of illusion spells, basically. The Hypnotic Gaze from the Enchanting Tradition fits PERFECTLY with it, along with some other spells (hypnotic pattern lvl 3, dominate person lvl 5, and even though it's necromancy Eyebite at lvl 6 - which is a big reason for me to want to get up to wizard 11).

So basically, lots of enchantment / illusions and some back up utility and offensive spells, but still in a melee-heavy build. I don't want to sit back and be just throwing spells for the whole fight, which is why I'm afraid of investing too heavily into wizard and then being too weak up close, but for fluff reasons I really want to go wizard 11 or at least wizard 9, though if it would seem to be too weak I could settle on a small wizard dip for the extra utility / spells known / Hypnotic Gaze.
Hi!
Hmm...
Well, being a Variant Human Bladesinger is out.
Also, you seem to have a pretty strong character concept in mind already. :)

So your only fear is, basically, to have so much fun enchanting everyone that you forget to actually weave your weapon? XD

Fear not then.
Wizard have also plenty spells that can compliment your Roguiness, although it may be less thematic.

Mirror Image: I don't remember if there are Uchiha capabilities close to that, but since Uchiha have Sharingan, you could just say he learned it by copying the Clone technique. ^^

Haste: well, Uchiha has always been about power and speed, enhancing themselves with lightning. Seems to fit perfectly (I actually made a lightning-based class building on those precepts ;)).

Shadow Blade: it's a bit sad it's necrotic (IIRC), honestly in your place I'd ask my DM to houserule it's lightning instead, so you fit the model. Besides that, it's a great spell, since as a multiclass with high Wizards level you can easily upcast it to offset the lack of Rogue levels.

On the split question, I'd really go for Arcane Trickster 11 / Wizard 9 myself.
I know the Wizard's "twin enchantment" is darn tempting, and missing on Mass Suggestion is really harsh.
So I'm not saying one is "better" than the latter.

It's just that I feel Reliable Talent will work wonders with all charmed spells and that fits perfectly with the "over-charismatic" presence of an Uchiha.
Then again, level 6 spells means Mass Suggestion but also Eyebite (so fitting), Investiture spells (Investiture of Flame kinda reminds me the Susanoo), Mental Prison (the "Kaleidoscop" thing, don't remember the name), and Tenser's Transformation ("Extra Attack" included, auto-advantage for Sneak Attack, etc).
So... Actually...

Let me change opinion on the fly ^^: from a purely "concepts to mechanics" point of view, for an Uchiha, the Rogue 9 / Wizard 11 split IS plain better: you get Rogue just high enough to get the wonderful Magical Ambush, to pair with all those impressive spells.

With that said...
There is a darn long road up to there... ^^
So I suggest you first manage to get up to the 9 / 9 split. Once there, you'll have ample enough experience on what works and what you like to decide how to spend the two last levels. :)

[kabraxis]

Hi!
Hmm...
Well, being a Variant Human Bladesinger is out.
Also, you seem to have a pretty strong character concept in mind already. :)

So your only fear is, basically, to have so much fun enchanting everyone that you forget to actually weave your weapon? XD

Basically this! Haha. Or if going 11 wizard would make my melee too weak and force me to end up being primarily a caster

Yeah for sure I'm getting Mirror Image. I can fluff it as being for example like the crow clone illusions that Itachi uses, or just regular clone jutsu really, either is fine! Blur also works using some minor sharingan genjutsu on the target to make it harder for them to hit me or something like that, but the concentration makes me favor mirror image
Haste, true too! can definitely get that
And the shadow blade, great idea! I somehow skipped over it. And yeah, definitely with you on turning it into lightning damage, and I'm sure my DM would allow that (already did it with Booming Blade, using lightning rather than thunder damage)

Also yup, Eyebite is something I'm looking forwards to, and good other options for lvl 6 as well! Mental prison is perfect, I didn't know about it before. And Tenser's Transformation... also didn't know about that. Can fluff it as being the susanoo or something, making me stronger but since it spends so much energy to use I can't cast other stuff alongside it, and I guess it can make up for the loss of rogue levels a bit when fighting something that my other spells won't grant me the upper hand!


So I suggest you first manage to get up to the 9 / 9 split. Once there, you'll have ample enough experience on what works and what you like to decide how to spend the two last levels. :)

Great idea. I guess I'll go AT 9 first, and then start putting points into wizard. I'm definitely leaning more torwards AT 9 / Wiz 11; when I actually get to AT 9 / Wiz 2 or something like that I can make my final decision on investing heavily on wizard, and then eventually when at 9/9 I can decide if going 9/11 or 11/9. Though I definitely think I'll end up going wiz 11 for those 6th lvl spells!

Thanks for the input!

[CTurbo]

Great idea. I guess I'll go AT 9 first, and then start putting points into wizard. I'm definitely leaning more torwards AT 9 / Wiz 11; when I actually get to AT 9 / Wiz 2 or something like that I can make my final decision on investing heavily on wizard, and then eventually when at 9/9 I can decide if going 9/11 or 11/9. Though I definitely think I'll end up going wiz 11 for those 6th lvl spells!

Thanks for the input!


Yeah I wouldn't bother trying to plan out the last 5 levels or so as you'll change your mind 100 times before then. You could take a Wiz level or 2 at anytime now if you want to start off earlier than level 10. Since you're already Rogue 5, I don't think dipping a Wiz level even at level 6 will make you feel behind on anything. Remember Wizardry is a learned magic so it's really easy to incorporate into rp as you just always reading in your downtime. You could almost even alternate levels between the two from here. Of course that puts off your next ASI a while, but you're not desperate for anything right now.