Goblinoids

[Falontani]

First off: one of my players told me that in forgotten realms goblinoids do not have souls, is this true?

Second off, regardless if this is true or not, I can't find a complete list of goblinoids in 3.5, does anyone have said list?

[BowStreetRunner]

I don't have a complete list, however each of the Monster Manuals has a section Monsters by Type (and Subtype) that includes goblinoids. That would be a good start.

MM1: bugbear, goblin, hobgoblin
MM2: none
MM3: forestkith goblin
MM4: varag
MM5: Hobgoblins (all)
FF: none

[noce]

Unearthed Arcana has a couple of environmental/elemental goblinoid races, for example Air Goblins.
Dragon Magic has Sunscorch Hobgoblins.
Another one is Vril in Drow of the Underdark.

[ShurikVch]

Also:
Bakemono (Oriental Adventures)
Bhuka (Sandstorm)
Blue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/blue.htm) (Expanded Psionics Handbook)
Dekanter Goblin (Monsters of Faerûn/Races of Faerûn)
Goblin, Grodd (Into the Dragon's Lair)
Snow Goblin (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040911a&page=4) (Frostburn)
Goblin Rat (Oriental Adventures)
Norker (Dragon #343)

If 3rd-party sources are OK, then also:
Darkling Snatcher (Dangerous Denizens: The Monsters of Tellene)
Goblin, Cave Lord (Bestiary of Krynn, Revised)
Goblin, Shashyf (Dangerous Denizens: The Monsters of Tellene)
Swamp Goblin (Creatures of Rokugan)
Half-Hobgoblin (Player's Guide to the Sovereign Lands)
Dazlak (Strength and Honor: The Mighty Hobgoblins of Tellene)
Kargi (Strength and Honor: The Mighty Hobgoblins of Tellene)
Kors (Strength and Honor: The Mighty Hobgoblins of Tellene)
Uk-karg (Strength and Honor: The Mighty Hobgoblins of Tellene)
Krangi (Strength and Honor: The Mighty Hobgoblins of Tellene)
Rankki (Strength and Honor: The Mighty Hobgoblins of Tellene)
Sil-Karg (Svimohzia: the Ancient Isle)
Mite (Tome of Horrors)
Nilbog (Tome of Horrors)
Slavering Gorger (Dangerous Denizens: The Monsters of Tellene)

[Darth Ultron]

First off: one of my players told me that in forgotten realms goblinoids do not have souls, is this true?


Somewhat. It's an old D&D idea. Animals, dragons, elves and goblinoids don't have souls, they have spirits. The idea is they are closer to the natural world and nature and magic.

They, in general, are harder to bring back to life as they don't want to come back.

[BowStreetRunner]

Somewhat. It's an old D&D idea. Animals, dragons, elves and goblinoids don't have souls, they have spirits. The idea is they are closer to the natural world and nature and magic.

They, in general, are harder to bring back to life as they don't want to come back.To elaborate, this concept went out with 3rd edition. Page 125 of Complete Divine has a comprehensive discussion of what happens after death in 3.5. But in the old versions of AD&D races like Humans, dwarves, halflings, gnomes, and half-elves could have Raise Dead or Ressurection spells cast on them while elves, orcs, half-orcs and others could not. The former group were said to have souls while the latter group had spirits. Now, the terms soul and spirit are used interchangeably.

[Falontani]

And there is no holdover for Forgotten Realms specifically? Sounds good. Why is there a Goblinoid subtype?

[KillianHawkeye]

Why is there a Goblinoid subtype?

Primarily so that Rangers can select all kinds of goblins at once as a Favored Enemy. Really though, it's no different from all elves having the Elf subtype or the large number of demons that have the Tanar'ri subtype.

[Afgncaap5]

Dekanter Goblin (Monsters of Faerûn/Races of Faerûn)

Just wanna point out that Dekanter Goblins are a fun example of a Monstrous Humanoid with the Goblinoid subtype instead of a Humanoid with the Goblinoid subtype.

Make of that what you will, but I like the implication that 1) certain subtypes might better be thought of as "tags" that give certain creatures qualities or shared histories (similar to how you can be a demon without necessarily being an outsider), and 2) you can have some fun worldbuilding just by mixing types and subtypes and figuring out what the end result looks like.

So for the homebrew-happy DM, you might be able to come up with fun combos... the glossary of the Monster Manual states that the goblinoid subtype is for creatures that are "stealthy" and that "hunt and raid" and "speak Goblin". Orcs, meanwhile, are not defined in the glossary, but are described by the monster manual as being warlike and raiders.

So a Humanoid (Orc, Goblin) might not make sense by the traditional uses of the rules, but you might get a notable story about (for example) a runt of an orc who was abandoned and raised by goblins to be a stealthy raider and hunter who had a "soul" that was split between the up-front warfare of orcs and the guerrilla-style raids and hunting of the goblins, possibly resulting in a weird kind of ninja/hunter enemy.

Or a Humanoid (Goblin, Fairy, Swarm) might be a collection of Tiny goblins who attack by rushing at and rolling over their enemies in waves of tiny fists and jabbing spears with a lot of comically effective strengths, but countered by anything that might hamper goblins, swarms, or fey (ignoring for the fact that there is no Fairy subtype in the core set.)

[DrMotives]

Or a Humanoid (Goblin, Fairy, Swarm) might be a collection of Tiny goblins who attack by rushing at and rolling over their enemies in waves of tiny fists and jabbing spears with a lot of comically effective strengths, but countered by anything that might hamper goblins, swarms, or fey (ignoring for the fact that there is no Fairy subtype in the core set.)

Sounds like Jermlaine. Fey, not tagged as goblins but they have a goblin vibe, if that makes sense. Size tiny, they train rats. I like using them as a DM, I play them up like the brownies from the movie Willow. Give them a few levels of sorcerer because, hey, magic doesn't care how tall you are.

[Afgncaap5]

Sounds like Jermlaine. Fey, not tagged as goblins but they have a goblin vibe, if that makes sense. Size tiny, they train rats. I like using them as a DM, I play them up like the brownies from the movie Willow. Give them a few levels of sorcerer because, hey, magic doesn't care how tall you are.

Gotta love the Jermlaine. They fill an important niche, I think, that is otherwise absent (or at least really tough to nail down) in first party material.

[Thurbane]

Name/Source
Type/Subtype(s)
LA/RHD
Ability Modifiers
Misc


Bakemono (OA p.146)
Small Humanoid (Goblinoid, Shadowlands)
LA +0
+4 Str, +4 Con, -8 Int, -2 Wis, -6 Cha
30 ft; +6 Natural AC; Bite 1d8, 2 Claws 1d6


Bhuka (Sa p.39)
Medium Humanoid (Goblinoid)
LA +0
-2 Str, +2 Dex
30 ft; Glare Resistance; Sure Feet; Water Sense; +2 on Con Checks vs. Dehydration etc.; +2 Bonus on Knowledge (nature); Knowledge (nature) always a class skill; Heat EnduranceB


Blue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/blue.htm)
Small Humanoid (Goblinoid, Psionic)
LA +1
-2 Str, +2 Int, -2 Cha
30 ft; Darkvision 60 ft; Naturally Psionic; +4 on Ride & Move Silently


Bugbear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bugbear.htm)
Medium Humanoid (Goblinoid)
LA +1 (3 RHD)
+4 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Cha
30 ft; +3 Natural AC; Darkvision 60 ft; Scent; +4 on Move Silently


Goblin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/goblin.htm)
Small Humanoid (Goblinoid)
LA +0
-2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Cha
30 ft; Darkvision 60 ft; +4 on Ride & Move Silently


Goblin, Air (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#airGoblins)
Small Humanoid (Goblinoid)
LA +0
-2 Str, +4 Dex, -2 Con
30 ft; Breathless; Darkvision 60 ft; +4 on Move Silently; +1 Attack vs. Earth Creatures; -2 on Saves vs. Earth Attacks


Goblin, Arctic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#arcticGoblins)
Small Humanoid (Goblinoid)
LA +0
-2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Cha
30 ft; Cold Endurance; Low-Light Vision; +2 on Bluff and Sleight of Hand; +4 on Ride


Goblin, Aquatic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#aquaticGoblins)
Small Humanoid (Aquatic, Goblinoid)
LA +0
-2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Cha
30 ft, Swim 30 ft; Aquatic; Darkvision 60 ft; +2 on Disable Device, Sleight of Hand, Ride & Move Silently


Goblin, Dekanter (MoF p.53; RoF p.137)
Medium Monstrous Humanoid (Goblinoid)
LA +4 (2 RHD)
+6 Str, +2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis, -2 Cha
20 ft; +4 Natural AC; Gore 1d6, 2 Claws 1d4; Darkvision 60 ft; Fast Healing 3; Resist Cold 5


Goblin, Desert (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertGoblins)
Small Humanoid (Goblinoid)
LA +0
-2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Cha
30 ft; Heat Endurance; Low-Light Vision; +2 on Gather Information; +4 on Ride & Move Silently


Goblin, Forestkith (MM3 p.64)
Small Humanoid (Goblinoid)
LA +1
+2 Dex, -2 Int
30 ft, Climb 20 ft; +1 Natural AC; Bite 1d4; Darkvision 60ft; Discordant Frenzy; Light Sensitivity; Tree Shape; +2 on Jump; +4 on Craft (weaving) (nets only); +4 on Hide & Move Silently (forested areas only); +8 on Climb; Treat Nets as Martial


Goblin, Jungle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#jungleGoblins)
Small Humanoid (Goblinoid)
LA +0
-2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Cha
30 ft, Climb 20 ft; Low-Light Vision; +4 on Jump; +8 on Climb


Goblin, Snow (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040911a&page=4) (FR p.136)
Small Humanoid (Goblinoid)
LA +1
+2 Dex, -2 Int, -2 Cha
30 ft, Climb 20 ft; Darkvision 60 ft; +4 on Intimidate & Move Silently; +8 on Climb


Goblinoid, Vril (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20070504a) (DotU p.123)
Small Humanoid (Goblinoid)
LA +0 (?)
+2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha
30 ft; Darkvision 60 ft; Light Blindness; Shriek; Skinshift; Vulnerability to Poison; +2 on Balance and Jump; +4 on Climb


Goblyn (Dragon 339 p.55)
Medium Humanoid (Goblinoid)
LA +2 (4 RHD)
+6 Dex, +2 Con, -4 Int, +2 Wis, -2 Cha
30 ft; +2 Natural AC; 2 Claws 1d6, Bite 1d6; Darkvision 60 ft; Feasting; Improved Grab; Scary Visage; SR 6; Telepathy; +4 on Climb, Hide & Move Silently; AlertnessB


Hobgoblin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hobgoblin.htm)
Medium Humanoid (Goblinoid)
LA +1
+2 Dex, +2 Con
30 ft; Darkvision 60 ft; +4 on Move Silently


Hobgoblin, Fire (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#fireHobgoblins)
Medium Humanoid (Goblinoid)
LA +1
+2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Int, -2 Cha
30 ft; Low-Light Vision; Resist Fire 5; +1 Attack vs. Water Creatures; -2 on Saves vs. Water or Cold Attacks


Hobgoblin, Spellscourge (MM5 p.85)
Medium Monstrous Humanoid (Goblinoid)
LA +2 (5 RHD)
+6 Str, +4 Dex, +6 Con, +2 Wis, -2 Cha
30 ft; Darkvision 60 ft; Spelleater; +2 Save vs. Spells; DodgeB


Hobgoblin, Sunscorch (DM p.9)
Medium Humanoid (Dragonblood, Goblinoid)
LA +1
+2 Con, +2 Wis
30 ft; Darkvision 60 ft; +2 on Saves vs. Nonlethal Heat Damage; +2 on Bluff; +4 on Move Silently


Hobgoblin, Warcaster (MM5 p.86)
Medium Monstrous Humanoid (Goblinoid)
LA +3 (4 RHD)
-2 Str, +4 Dex, +6 Con, +6 Int, +2 Cha
30 ft; +2 Natural AC; Arcane Talent; Darkvision 60 ft; DR 5/magic; magic Strike; Pillar of Magic; Spelleater; +2 Save vs. Spells; Iron WillB


Hobgoblin, Warsoul (MM5 p.87)
Medium Monstrous Humanoid (Goblinoid)
LA +4 (10 RHD)
-2 Str, +6 Dex, +8 Con, +10 Int, +4 Wis, +4 Cha
30 ft; +4 Natural AC; Arcane Talent; Cult of Power; Darkvision 60 ft; DR 10/magic; Magic Strike; Spell easter; Soul Tyrant; +2 Save vs. Spells; Iron WillB


Norker (Dragon 343, p.53)
Small Humanoid (Goblinoid)
LA +1
+2 Str, +2 Dex, +4 Con, -2 Int, -4 Wis, -4 Cha
30 ft; +5 Natural AC; Bite 1d4; Darkvision 60 ft; +4 Move Silently


Varag (MM4 p.168)
Medium Humanoid (Goblinoid)
LA +2 (3 RHD)
+4 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Con, -4 Int
60 ft; +3 Natural AC; Darkvision 60 ft; Scent; RunB; Spring AttackB; ​+8 on Move Silently

[Falontani]

Thurbane thank you as always for the table. They are extremely useful and you seem to pull them out of thin air

[ShurikVch]

Goblin, Dekanter (MoF p.53)
Medium Humanoid (Goblinoid)
LA +3 (2 RHD)
+6 Str, +2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis, -2 Cha
Note: both Monsters of Faerûn and Races of Faerûn are listed them as a Monstrous Humanoids
And while the 3.5 update (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040313a) called them "Humanoid (goblinoid)", the very same update also gave them "Base Attack/Grapple:" of "+2/+5", which shouldn't be possible for 2 HD Medium-sized Humanoid, but trivial for equivalent Monstrous Humanoid



Goblyn (Dragon 339 p.55)
Medium Humanoid (Goblinoid)
LA +2 (4 RHD)
+6 Dex, +2 Con, -4 Int, +2 Wis, -2 Cha
Oh my...
I was sooo sure they're just look Goblin-like!.. :smallsigh:
This is especially astonishing, considering how "unstable" the Goblinoid subtype is: Dolgrim (Eberron Campaign Setting), Half-Goblin (Dangerous Denizens), and Worghest (Dragon #350) are all obviously Goblin-related, but none of them got the actual Goblinoid subtype...

[Thurbane]

Sounds like Jermlaine. Fey, not tagged as goblins but they have a goblin vibe, if that makes sense. Size tiny, they train rats. I like using them as a DM, I play them up like the brownies from the movie Willow. Give them a few levels of sorcerer because, hey, magic doesn't care how tall you are.

I would have thought Tasloi might be considered Goblinoids as well, but they also are not.

http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/ssouth_gallery/84376.jpg


Thurbane thank you as always for the table. They are extremely useful and you seem to pull them out of thin air

No problemo. :smallsmile:


Note: both Monsters of Faerûn and Races of Faerûn are listed them as a Monstrous Humanoids
And while the 3.5 update (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040313a) called them "Humanoid (goblinoid)", the very same update also gave them "Base Attack/Grapple:" of "+2/+5", which shouldn't be possible for 2 HD Medium-sized Humanoid, but trivial for equivalent Monstrous Humanoid

Yeah, I was basing it on the 3.5 update that lists them as Humanoids. I can see the dysfunction with type and BAB...hmmm...

[Afgncaap5]

Yeah, I was basing it on the 3.5 update that lists them as Humanoids. I can see the dysfunction with type and BAB...hmmm...

I don't have the physical book that they're in, but aren't they, like, mutated or bred in experiments by a mind flayer or something? I think Monstrous Humanoid is a result of all that. Not sure why they changed them to Humanoid, honestly (unless giving a non-Humanoid a Goblinoid tag just really bugged some editor somewhere.)

[Thurbane]

Goblinoids really get the short end of the stick in 3E.

They don't get any whiz-bang splat support like kobolds do.

Not to mention of the LA +0 Goblinoids, there's only two without a net penalty to ability mods: Bhuka and Air Goblins.

[Fizban]

I'm sure that if someone decided Goblins were actually mini-dragons, they'd have got a bunch of extra material too.

I do find that 3.x goblinoids are just lacking in identity to me. Nothing really links golbins, hobgoblins, and bugbears at all, except that they're apparently related. MM1 goblin fluff is basically what you'd normally expect from a trash mob, and trash mobs aren't important enough to have cities or anything. They ride worgs because Tolkien's goblins rode wargs, except the worgs get almost no benefit from it and are barely any tougher than normal wolves to begin with. Hobgoblins are basically what, bandit warlords with bad skin and better stats than you because reasons? Other settings like warcraft will turn goblins into crazy tech fiends, or put fallen goblin empires in the backstory like eberron, but when you get down to it what's the defining trait of small humanoids? They're small and ineffectual (though sneaky), until someone decides they're all mini-dragons or have super war-wagon tactics or something.

Bugbears do have one very specific mechanical niche: they're the Humanoids with the most natural hit dice. Monstrous humanoids and giants can easily have more, but for actual Humanoids I don't readily know of any that beat the Bugbear's 3HD, and that combined with high base stats really does make them scary medium brutes compared to actual 1HD non-elite NPCs. Born as strong and tough as the rare elite multi-leveled characters, Bugbears are as strong as while being tougher and smarter than even the vaunted orcs, tougher and smarter than lizardfolk, etc. From a PC perspective focused on 3rd+ levels they're nothing special, but that is some beefy beef if employed on a wide scale, and it actually does make sense why they supposedly boss all the others around, since a natural bugbear does indeed beat a 1HD warrior of any of the others in anything but weapon proficiency.

[Morty]

I think the bit with goblins not having souls comes from a Drizzt book, where Mielikki told him that. But apparently, it was later implied to be someone else pretending to be Mielikki? Not really sure.

Either way, goblinoids certainly do rival elves in terms of sheer superfluous variety, but where elves get different ways to be magical and awesome, goblinoids just get different ways to be smelly, evil vermin. I don't see much that differentiates bugbears from hairy, uncommonly stealthy orcs, and the other types have even less. At least hobgoblins got this whole "organized Lawful Evil army" shtick eventually.

[BowStreetRunner]

I'm sure that if someone decided Goblins were actually mini-dragons, they'd have got a bunch of extra material too.See, this is where the Tolkien version would really shine. Orcs/Goblins in Middle Earth were created from tortured elves. Now tell me that wouldn't make for a really awesome splatbook! Races of the Cauldron - a guide to races that were created when powerful magic was used to twist nature back against itself.

[DrMotives]

I love goblins. I wish they (and orcs) got more support in 1st party books, but no. I've tried to play them a few times when I wasn't DM, but the DM always gave me a hard no on that. I like to play them up as natural rangers, excelling at hunting, tracking, sneaking through the forest, and being snipers / assassins.

[Morty]

See, this is where the Tolkien version would really shine. Orcs/Goblins in Middle Earth were created from tortured elves. Now tell me that wouldn't make for a really awesome splatbook! Races of the Cauldron - a guide to races that were created when powerful magic was used to twist nature back against itself.

The origin of orcs as tortured elves is dubiously canonical.

[BowStreetRunner]

The origin of orcs as tortured elves is dubiously canonical.Page 50 of my copy of The Silmarillion. "Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressea, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest of foes."

[Eldariel]

Page 50 of my copy of The Silmarillion. "Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressea, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest of foes."

Tolkien did never end up at a solution himself though (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_(Middle-earth)#A_list_of_origins,_proposed_by_Tolkien).

[BowStreetRunner]

Tolkien did never end up at a solution himself though (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_(Middle-earth)#A_list_of_origins,_proposed_by_Tolkien).In any case, the goblinoid races would have benefited very much from appearing in one of the Races splat books. Kobolds got all of the nice things.

[CharonsHelper]

Page 50 of my copy of The Silmarillion. "Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressea, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest of foes."

I always had the impression that the first orcs were more manifestations of the torture that those elves rather than the elves themselves.

Frankly - if they were the elves themselves then orcs should be far more badass.

[Thurbane]

Bugbears do have one very specific mechanical niche: they're the Humanoids with the most natural hit dice. Monstrous humanoids and giants can easily have more, but for actual Humanoids I don't readily know of any that beat the Bugbear's 3HD, and that combined with high base stats really does make them scary medium brutes compared to actual 1HD non-elite NPCs.

A couple equal the Bugbear: Crucian (MH/Sa), Dark Stalker (FF) and Varag (MM) all have 3 RHD.

Unfortunately Dabus (EttDP) and Tren (SK) have 4 RHD (also the Goblyn in my table, if you include Dragon Magazine).

But I agree that Bugbears make great "out of the box" challenging low-level encounters.

[liquidformat]

I have always been sad that the goblin and orc got so little love from WotC. Orc got more than goblins given that they at least have a couple orc specific prcs but orc warlord is the best of them and that really isn't saying much. It would have been amazing if they did a 'Races of Scorn' maybe add in lizardfolk or gnoll for good measure. Granted gnoll got an honorable mention in Races of the Wild. Or adding ogres, trolls, and hags could be interesting... I would totally jump at that book.

[Thurbane]

Just checked Races of Faerun (p137): it confirms that Dekanter Goblins are Monstrous Humanoids. It also shows their LA as +4.

The RAW support for Goblinoid splat is very limited:

Stonedeath Assassin (RoS) is a Goblinoid only PrC.

Goblinoids can qualify for the Dungeon Lord PrC (Dng).

...I think ther emight also be a couple of regional feats they can qualify for?

[Bullet06320]

goblins got their own monk order at least
The Shaarat'khesh
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041213a

[OgresAreCute]

Wasn't there a Hexer PrC for goblins and lizardfolk and such too?

[Thurbane]

Wasn't there a Hexer PrC for goblins and lizardfolk and such too?

Good point:


Race/Type: Monstrous humanoid, giant, goblinoid, or other primitive humanoid, such as orc or gnoll.

[Bullet06320]

http://www.candlekeep.com/library/articles/goblins.htm

found this over at candlekeep looking for something else

[Falontani]

http://www.candlekeep.com/library/articles/goblins.htm

found this over at candlekeep looking for something else

Very helpful!

[Dimers]

Make of that what you will, but I like the implication that certain subtypes might better be thought of as "tags" that give certain creatures qualities or shared histories ...

Some are used that way -- reptilian, spider, shapechanger, psionic, all the alignment and element subtypes you see on outsiders ... My un-humble, ranty opinion: It's dumb that "dragon" is a type instead of a subtype. A pseudodragon, a half-dragon giant centipede and a dragon turtle have so little in common.

[Zaq]

There is, as has been exhaustively stated already, negligible mechanical support for goblinoids among printed material. (In a very strict core-only setting, goblins have the very slight mechanical distinction of being pretty much your only option for LA 0 Small-size humanoids with 30' move speed, but that gets obsoleted pretty quickly out of core, and the net penalty to stats still hurts when you don't open up any interesting feats or classes with it.)

I do like some elements of 4e's take on goblins. Translated to 3.5 mechanics, 4e goblins can basically take a 5-ft step (non-provoking, as usual for a 5-ft step) as an immediate action after anyone misses them with an attack. (The attacker already has to have missed, so it can't prevent the attack entirely, but it's also usable at will and can, for example, potentially get you out of a damaging zone or put you out of reach of the second swing of a multi-attack combo.) Gives them more of a shifty, dodgy, I'm-swarming-all-around-you kind of feel. I doubt it would break anything to just staple that to the 3.5 goblin at no cost.

I echo the sentiment that orcs, goblins, and other "savage/evil" humanoids should have gotten a Races Of book. I like that name "Races of Scorn." Less likely to have unfortunate implications than "Races of Savagery" or something.

[ShurikVch]

Player's Guide to Faerûn got three regional feat for which being goblinoid is one of ways to qualify for: Knifefighter, Resist Poison, and Swift and Silent - they all required bugbear, goblin, or hobgoblin from the Earthfast Mountains
Races of Eberron have Darguun Mauler feat for - goblinoids from Darguun

If non-1st-party sources are interesting, there was the "Paragons of War: The Ecology of the Hobgoblin" article in Dragon #309
Kingdoms of Kalamar have Friend & Foe: The Elves and Bugbears of Tellene and Strength and Honor: The Mighty Hobgoblins of Tellene

Goblinoid-related templates: Goblin Beast (Ravenloft Gazetteer: Volume V) and Gurik Cha'ahl (Bestiary of Krynn, Revised)

Grand History of the Realms mentioned Koalinth; they never were given stats in 3.X, but in 2E they were described as "like Hobgoblins, but with gills and swim speed"

Creatures of Rokugan also have Mountain Goblin

Also, I'm noticed - disturbingly often, creatures which are, logically, should have the Goblinoid subtype, are lacking it (sometimes, even in the 1st-party books):
Arctic Bugbear (Friend & Foe)
Bugbear Mage (Friend & Foe)
Desert Bugbear (Friend & Foe)
Dolgrim (Eberron Campaign Setting)
Half-Goblin (Dangerous Denizens/Races of Ansalon)
Winged Hobgoblin (Coin's End)
Worghest (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Worghest) (Dragon #350)


MM1 goblin fluff is basically what you'd normally expect from a trash mob, and trash mobs aren't important enough to have cities or anything.Check Into the Dragon's Lair (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Into_the_Dragon%27s_Lair) adventure and Death of the Dragon (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Death_of_the_Dragon) novel - Grodd is the last remnant of goblins former majesty
It looks kinda like a mix of Ancient Rome (legions, flowering of culture and knowledge - they're have 10th-level Goblins there!) and Metro 2033 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_2033) (they're living "underground" and feed on available subterranean life)


Hobgoblins are basically what, bandit warlords with bad skin and better stats than you because reasons?I, personally, always regarded them more like mongols around the time of Genghis Khan


Other settings like warcraft will turn goblins into crazy tech fiendsQuoting from the link above:
Goblins of Zakhara
...
Goblins in the Land of Fate have a great affinity for gadgets, especially explosives. They create and use odd devices such as flame-throwers, repeating crossbows, and balloons.:redcloak:


or put fallen goblin empires in the backstory like eberronNote: goblins of Forgotten Realms have one too; it was swallowed by expansion of the Great Desert of Anauroch
Remnants of it migrated to Western Heartlands, and were exterminated at the Battle of Bones (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Bones).

[hamishspence]

I, personally, always regarded them more like mongols around the time of Genghis Khan

While Warhammer hobgoblins were mostly sneaky assassin-types - there was a hobgoblin warlord which was a clear expy of Ghengis.

[Thurbane]

The Mongoose "Slayer's Guide" books are usually pretty well written, especially the fluff and ecology sections. I've read the Goblin one (a friend used it as inspiration for a goblin scout he played) and thought it was decent.

Slayer's Guide to Goblins (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/23405/Slayers-Guide-to-Goblins?it=1)

Slayer's Guide to Hobgoblins (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/1842/Slayers-Guide-to-Hobgoblins?it=1)

Slayer's Guide to Bugbears (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/1838/Slayers-Guide-to-Bugbears?it=1)


Grand History of the Realms mentioned Koalinth; they never were given stats in 3.X, but in 2E they were described as "like Hobgoblins, but with gills and swim speed"

Kaolinth existed in 1E: there were aquatic versions of some standard races, so the DM could use them in underwater adventures. Hobgoblin = Kaolinth, Ghoul = Lacedon, Gargoyle = Kopoacinth, Troll = Scrag, Ogre = Merrow. There may have been more, but that's what I remember off the top of my head...

[hamishspence]

Kaolinth existed in 1E: there were aquatic versions of some standard races, so the DM could use them in underwater adventures. Hobgoblin = Kaolinth, Ghoul = Lacedon, Gargoyle = Kopoacinth, Troll = Scrag, Ogre = Merrow. There may have been more, but that's what I remember off the top of my head...

The Environmental Racial Variant rules from Unearthed Arcana could probably be applied to "recreate" kaolinths in 3e.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#generalAquaticRaci alTraits

Oddly, they applied it to regular goblins instead of hobgoblins:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#aquaticGoblins

[ShurikVch]

The Environmental Racial Variant rules from Unearthed Arcana could probably be applied to "recreate" kaolinths in 3e.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#generalAquaticRaci alTraits

Oddly, they applied it to regular goblins instead of hobgoblins:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#aquaticGoblinsActu ally, there is Merrow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ogre.htm#merrow) in 3.5

[hamishspence]

Actually, there is Merrow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ogre.htm#merrow) in 3.5

Yup - I noticed that - which is why I removed Merrow from my example - leaving only kaolinths that don't have an "official 3.5 set of rules" yet.