Humans aren't monsters

[martixy]

It seems they don't have an entry in the Monster Manual (or the SRD), even though elves and gnomes and even half-elves have one. The only thing I have is this:
https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Human
Which it says SRD, but I think it's a mistake, not least because it lists human traits in the Special ATTACKS column.

Which is significant because it would mean that polymorphing into a human would give you a bonus feat and extra skill points under that definition...

I mean what the hell...

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It seems they don't have an entry in the Monster Manual (or the SRD), even though elves and gnomes and even half-elves have one. The only thing I have is this:
https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Human
Which it says SRD, but I think it's a mistake, not least because it lists human traits in the Special ATTACKS column.

Which is significant because it would mean that polymorphing into a human would give you a bonus feat and extra skill points under that definition...

I mean what the hell...Polymorph already grants bonus feats and skills.

[martixy]

Polymorph already grants bonus feats and skills.

Hm... aren't feats special qualities?

[Fouredged Sword]

Yep. Good way to get max ranks in an obscure skill on demand for non-humans.

[Fizban]

No mention that anything called "dndwiki" should never be trusted in the first three posts? For shame.

There is not and has never been a "human" monster entry in the srd, not that I've heard of anyway. Hard to check since the links on the actual wizards site have long since gone dead, but if hypertext srd removed them a decade ago without anyone noticing I guess they done pulled one heck of a prank. You can figure out what human traits count as what by checking statblocks for human NPCs in any book with a human NPC statblock- though I wouldn't be surprised if a few disagreed at some point.

Polymorphing into a human to gain bonus feats and skills is of course ridiculous, but if the DM thinks it's fine then go nuts I suppose.

[KillianHawkeye]

Humans are the greatest monsters of all.....

[lylsyly]

... so says history!

[ericgrau]

Hmm, they aren't anywhere in the actual monster manual either. Sneaky bastards.

Like most RAW things that doesn't mean they aren't monsters though. It just means they're undefined. Still it seems like a weird oversight. Maybe they aren't listed because the PHB already covers them and because humans don't have any subraces. Because that would be extreeeemely dangerous socially/politically to make a human subrace. OTOH we do have illumians. Just no basic core variants like deephumans or whatever.

[Zombimode]

Polymorphing into a human to gain bonus feats and skills is of course ridiculous, but if the DM thinks it's fine then go nuts I suppose.

It will grant you an unsed feat slot and a number equal to your HD of unused skill points. If you spend a really long timed polymorphed into a human you may eventually make use of the feat and skill points.

[Malimar]

Like most RAW things that doesn't mean they aren't monsters though. It just means they're undefined. Still it seems like a weird oversight. Maybe they aren't listed because the PHB already covers them and because humans don't have any subraces. Because that would be extreeeemely dangerous socially/politically to make a human subrace. OTOH we do have illumians. Just no basic core variants like deephumans or whatever.

Neanderthals, too. And mongrelfolk have the (human) subtype according to Races of Destiny, but not according to Fiend Folio.

[Albions_Angel]

Of course humans arnt in the WotC monster manual. Humans wrote it.

If you want the human monster entry, you need to buy a monster manual published for the elfin gaming community.

[Vaern]

Which is significant because it would mean that polymorphing into a human would give you a bonus feat and extra skill points under that definition...
The bonus feat and extra skill points are a racial bonus. Technically, a human that is reincarnated as something else is supposed to lose its human feat and skill points in lieu of its new racial traits. An elf polymorphing into a human and gaining a bonus feat would be akin to a human polymorphing into an elf and gaining the ability to sense nearby hidden doors. I'd imagine that a human polymorphing into another race else would temporarily lose its human feat and skill points as well.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

And a human polymorphing into another human gets to rechoose those same skill points and the feat...

[martixy]

So where's the nearest elf gaming shop again? Gnome would do too...

What about, say, dragons though? They shapeshift via Alternate Form. Would they get the bonus feat/skill points(which are at least is explicitly mentioned in polymorph).

[Fizban]

Because that would be extreeeemely dangerous socially/politically to make a human subrace. OTOH we do have illumians. Just no basic core variants like deephumans or whatever.
Don't even need to mention a "subrace," just putting a "human" entry in the Monster Manual would have made people go nuts. Trying to make any generalized statement about "humans" would immediately offend basically anyone who read it and didn't agree with whatever historical template the author was using to define the "standard" human warrior. Your default human statblock is for say, nomadic plains dwellers? You'll make the medieval knights and castle enthusiasts mad. Make it a 15th century soldier and vice versa. Make it a knight and someone will take issue with it being too specific, make it a peasant levy and it's not representative of a soldier. Make a bunch of statblocks for various environments and tech levels and now you've spent too much monster book space on NPCs a bunch of people don't want in their monster book.

If anything I find it more odd that the other PHB humanoids are in there, but it just goes to show how easy it is for people to accept stereotypes as long as it's somewhat removed from them. Elves and dwarves and gnomes and halflings (and orcs) are all "fantasy races," so generalizing about them is fine. Dunno about 4e, but by 5e they've cut most of the PHB races from the MM it looks like- aside from Drow, which appear in both because edge. Hobbos and gobbos and orcs are still in there, and if anything are presented even more monstrously than before. It's kinda weird actually how thick the 5e MM lays it on.

Also annoying are all the books with stablocks for various town NPCs, which always assume Human as a base and require modifications to make sense for other races. Humans aren't monsters, and all default townies are humans apparently.

Incidentally, that dandwiki page isn't completely terrible. The main problem is that instead of picking a generic warrior, it tries to describe a bunch of them by listing pretty much every tactic except the old school one-handed+shield or shield wall- so pretty much every one that has a feat in the SRD. That, and the fact that they converted the "tribal/warband" organizations without noticing that those with mounts get fewer high level guys to compensate. So a "company" of humans is far more dangerous than the equivalent thanks to the extra pile of warhorses (compounded by the suggestion that every warrior actually be specialized rather than using the generic statblock you came for).

Of course that isn't all that wrong either. Every human in dnd that trains for combat, thus selecting combat feats, has a massive advantage over the equivalent 1st level warrior of another race. Elves get +1 on ranged attacks, but humans can start with Far Shot for 50% more range (ya know, the whole point of the bows), or Rapid Shot for literally double the output. The frontline can afford whatever feat the other guy has plus Toughness, for nearly twice the hp. It takes a human to get spirited charge, or cleave, or improved trip, or any number of things on warrior 1. Professional human soldiers are just better.

The tradeoff ought to be in gear, organization, and actually getting that training. While elves and dwarves are presented as monolithic cultures and peoples (by default anyway), with much longer lifespans and empires stretching back far beyond the humans, their troops should simply be better equipped and more inclined to work together, simply because being around longer means they get to have more refined military. While humans depend very much on what time period (and region) they're being based on. Feudal levies ought to actually be composed of warriors by the numbers, but that doesn't mean those warriors were training in feats that would make them mesh well in a unit before they got called up from every direction, and they show up with whatever they've got, not a nice standardized kit like the dwarves were already using a thousand years ago (guess they're the Romans).

[Awakeninfinity]

Of course humans arnt in the WotC monster manual. Humans wrote it.

If you want the human monster entry, you need to buy a monster manual published for the elfin gaming community.

I'm kind of imagining the elf entry in the elfin PHB as +2 to all abilities and a bonus feat.

[zergling.exe]

Humans have entries in 4e: Rabble, Lackey, Bandit, Guard, Berserker and Mage. Elves get Archers and Scouts, Drow are their own entry entirely and divorced from elves, Dwarves get a crossbowman and shield and board, Gnomes have MM entries but no PHB entry (they weren't playable till the PHB2!), Halflings have slingers, guards, thieves and prowlers, and Orcs get even more entries than Humans, though all are related to war.

[St Fan]

It will grant you an unsed feat slot and a number equal to your HD of unused skill points. If you spend a really long timed polymorphed into a human you may eventually make use of the feat and skill points.

Exactly. Glad to see somebody else is actually remembering that skills and feats take learning time before investing them in anything.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Exactly. Glad to see somebody else is actually remembering that skills and feats take learning time before investing them in anything.Yeah, the time between gaining a level and spending the points.

Level-based systems are weird.

[St Fan]

Yeah, the time between gaining a level and spending the points.

Level-based systems are weird.

Which how much time this take is entirely in the hands of the DM.

Me, personally as a GM, says it takes weeks, and require to find the appropriate teacher(s) for whatever you're trying to learn. Can be done before the actual level rise, can be done with the help of fellow PCs, but it's a lengthy and costly process.

Characters just gaining the appropriate skills and feats as soon as they have enough XP, and ping a new level, is only done in parodies of the game. Doing otherwise is willingly mis-comprehending the rules.

Especially rule zero - "the DM has the final say".

[ezekielraiden]

Hmm, they aren't anywhere in the actual monster manual either. Sneaky bastards.

Like most RAW things that doesn't mean they aren't monsters though. It just means they're undefined. Still it seems like a weird oversight. Maybe they aren't listed because the PHB already covers them and because humans don't have any subraces. Because that would be extreeeemely dangerous socially/politically to make a human subrace. OTOH we do have illumians. Just no basic core variants like deephumans or whatever.

This seems pretty likely. It's fine to implicitly call all your Totally Not Humans Wearing Hats "monsters" because they appear in the "Monster" Manual, but *actual* humans might be a bridge too far.

Alternatively, it could be a holdover. Humans never were in the MM, so nobody adds them.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Which how much time this take is entirely in the hands of the DM.

Me, personally as a GM, says it takes weeks, and require to find the appropriate teacher(s) for whatever you're trying to learn. Can be done before the actual level rise, can be done with the help of fellow PCs, but it's a lengthy and costly process.

Characters just gaining the appropriate skills and feats as soon as they have enough XP, and ping a new level, is only done in parodies of the game. Doing otherwise is willingly mis-comprehending the rules.

Especially rule zero - "the DM has the final say".And yet, several effects allow you to gain skills and feats nigh instantaneously. Lycanthropy, for example, immediately grants HD, skills, and feats. Psychic reformation allows you to take feats and skills you've never had before, as does the Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle. The polymorph line explicitly grants you feats and skills of whatever forms you take.

So yeah, gaining levels quickly doesn't seem that much of a stretch, as it's baked into the game in several ways.

That, and XP and levels are explicit things characters can learn about and manipulate in-game. They know about skill ranks and feats and whatnot, because many characters can mould and shape them with near-impunity.

[Bronk]

Which how much time this take is entirely in the hands of the DM.

Me, personally as a GM, says it takes weeks, and require to find the appropriate teacher(s) for whatever you're trying to learn. Can be done before the actual level rise, can be done with the help of fellow PCs, but it's a lengthy and costly process.

Characters just gaining the appropriate skills and feats as soon as they have enough XP, and ping a new level, is only done in parodies of the game. Doing otherwise is willingly mis-comprehending the rules.

Especially rule zero - "the DM has the final say".

Skills and feats are gained in the middle of leveling up, which is something that happens instantaneously as soon as enough XP is awarded.

[Malimar]

Which how much time this take is entirely in the hands of the DM.

Me, personally as a GM, says it takes weeks, and require to find the appropriate teacher(s) for whatever you're trying to learn. Can be done before the actual level rise, can be done with the help of fellow PCs, but it's a lengthy and costly process.

Characters just gaining the appropriate skills and feats as soon as they have enough XP, and ping a new level, is only done in parodies of the game. Doing otherwise is willingly mis-comprehending the rules.

Especially rule zero - "the DM has the final say".

The DMG explicitly calls out requiring training time and teachers and so on, as you do, as an optional variant rule.

Research and training aren't a part of the standard rules.
Get the base ruleset clear in your own head before accusing others of "willingly mis-comprehending the rules".

[Allanimal]

Alternatively, it could be a holdover. Humans never were in the MM, so nobody adds them.

Not true. They are in the 1st ed Monster Manual. Under “Men”.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Not true. They are in the 1st ed Monster Manual. Under “Men”.But not HUmen. And what about WOmen, huh?

[Thurbane]

I've seen people argue that the base humans in the PHB don't have the Human subtype...

FWIW, most of the Lyncantropes in the MM1 use humans as the base creature, and have the Human subtype. The sample Woodling Druid (MM3 p.197), Wereserpent (SK p.69) and Werecrocodile (Sa p.167) also all use humans as the base creature, and have the Human subtype.

If there's any controversy about using Alter Self or Polymorph to gain the Human bonus feat, just use Karsite (ToM) instead.

[St Fan]

The DMG explicitly calls out requiring training time and teachers and so on, as you do, as an optional variant rule.


Anybody NOT using said variant rule should be ashamed of themselves.

[martixy]

Anybody NOT using said variant rule should be ashamed of themselves.

Does it count if we use it theoretically, but tend to handwave it occasionally.

What I do specifically is usually let characters level up when there's a lot of downtime on the horizon.

[Malimar]

Anybody NOT using said variant rule should be ashamed of themselves.
"STOP HAVING FUN WRONG."

There's no real reason to use that variant. Mastering a new technique in the middle of battle is no less realistic than mastering it in downtime.

[lylsyly]

Like learning how to dodge bullets out of sheer DESPERATION!

[frogglesmash]

Anybody NOT using said variant rule should be ashamed of themselves.



Why tho?
Also, why are you so judgmental?

Edit: Fixed quoted text.

[martixy]

Why tho?
Also, why are you so judgmental?

Why handwave it? Cuz it's not something me or my group feels terribly immersion-breaking.
Also... WUT?

[frogglesmash]

Why handwave it? Cuz it's not something me or my group feels terribly immersion-breaking.
Also... WUT?

Sorry, quoted the wrong comment.