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WindStruck
2018-07-22, 12:52 AM
I do not want to get too much into exact setting, character, or campaign details, but this sums up what happened:

My character had recently moved to a new city and was getting settled in. I had found a job working for some guy at his shop, and for exact reasons unspecified here, my character was faithless. So I decided one day after work that I would accompany my boss to his religious mass to see what all this religious stuff was all about.

So I am sitting in mass, listening to the high priest, preacher, or whatever talk... and then suddenly I find myself on the outer planes, receiving a mini guided tour through some afterlives. I talked to several spirit guides, saw the wall of the faithless, even got engaged in a little debate IC, then I decided officially that I had had enough and wanted to get back.

After this little spiritual experience, however, I find myself back at my room at the inn I was staying at... a week later. Furthermore, the bed is occupied by what appears to be a living, breathing, clone of myself. What is worse, it would seem that from the moment I "left" for the outer planes, a doppelganger of me had been existing, living out my life this entire time... and no one seemed to notice. It seems at least one important event transpired during this time as well.

So I brought up issue with this, and my DM affirms that what happened is no big deal. This is a very small time skip. And in fact, it's about a random event as much as declaring it starts to rain outside.

My DM did step out of line, right? At the very least, we should be negotiating for a game that is fun for everyone?

What would you say (preferably in small words) that would clearly explain why what they did was wrong?

Elysiume
2018-07-22, 01:06 AM
I don't see where they went too far without knowing how it progresses. If you were (mundanely) kidnapped for a week then slipped your bonds and wandered back to the city, finding a doppelganger in your bed, I'd take that as a plot hook. Why were you kidnapped? Where did this doppelganger come from? Is the doppelganger in cahoots with the kidnapper?

I'd see it the same way even though it was a magical non-kidnapping. What caused the time dilation? Where did this doppelganger come from? Was it a direct consequence of you being in the outer planes, or did some unknown entity take advantage of your absence?

Unless there's something else, it just seems like a lead-in to a plotline. You've made it clear that you don't think it was fun, but it's not clear what specifically you found unfun. The bait-and-switch of ending up lost in time? It's very canonical that some planes have wonky time. The doppelganger showing up? As I said above, that reeks of plot hook. How many other players are in the game? What were they doing during your absence? Did anyone know that you were sojourning?

Koo Rehtorb
2018-07-22, 01:39 AM
Went too far in what sense?

It certainly sounds hamfisted and eye rolley, but those aren't GMing mortal sins.

Lord_Kimboat
2018-07-22, 01:59 AM
I'm having a hard time figuring out why you have a problem with this. Did you miss out on something, were you not there for a session? if not, why?

The DM doesn't seem to have done anything terrible to your character provided you killed the doppelganger. What's the issue?

WindStruck
2018-07-22, 02:05 AM
Went too far in what sense?

It certainly sounds hamfisted and eye rolley, but those aren't GMing mortal sins.

Too far as in overextending suspension of disbelief? Using too much DM fiat?

Think about what kind of powers could simultaneously transport my character to another plane, and create a copy of myself in the same space, in the same instant, replacing me as if nothing happened.

My character was very low level and had not pissed off any gods or epic-level casters, so I guess the question comes up, what justifies this sort of event? And how would it even be remotely possible?


I don't see where they went too far without knowing how it progresses. If you were (mundanely) kidnapped for a week then slipped your bonds and wandered back to the city, finding a doppelganger in your bed, I'd take that as a plot hook. Why were you kidnapped? Where did this doppelganger come from? Is the doppelganger in cahoots with the kidnapper?

I'd see it the same way even though it was a magical non-kidnapping. What caused the time dilation? Where did this doppelganger come from? Was it a direct consequence of you being in the outer planes, or did some unknown entity take advantage of your absence?

Unless there's something else, it just seems like a lead-in to a plotline. You've made it clear that you don't think it was fun, but it's not clear what specifically you found unfun. The bait-and-switch of ending up lost in time? It's very canonical that some planes have wonky time. The doppelganger showing up? As I said above, that reeks of plot hook. How many other players are in the game? What were they doing during your absence? Did anyone know that you were sojourning?

Those are questions I asked, because I was really uncomfortable with where this is going and how suddenly it happened, and I wanted to know what was going on before proceeding further. All I got was debate instead.

Keep in mind that making an exact clone of someone is already extremely hard to do. It's just the fact that I was quite literally replaced while surrounded by like dozens of people who didn't notice, and no one else my character also interacts with seemed to notice any changes either.

Of course, yes, different planes may be known for variation in time speeds, but I think my biggest problem with the whole thing is that my character was merely attending an ordinary religious mass. I never asked for this sort of thing to happen. It just comes at me as too wild and out of the blue, and a very poor way of making a change to my character that generally isn't even remotely outlined in rules or good storytelling.

You can look at the silver lining and say "ooh, plot hook!" but I just don't want that. I already had like three or four things/goals my character was already working on, so just throwing another massive, mindtwisting, reality-questioning iron onto the fire was something I wasn't happy with.



I'm having a hard time figuring out why you have a problem with this. Did you miss out on something, were you not there for a session? if not, why?

The DM doesn't seem to have done anything terrible to your character provided you killed the doppelganger. What's the issue?

Seems you are not the only one questioning if I have been "absent". The fact is, no, I was absolutely not absent. This was just a solo game, and we had a pretty quick posting rate at that.

The upper part of this post elaborate on my issues with this.

BTW, why would I automatically want to kill the doppelganger?

Koo Rehtorb
2018-07-22, 02:16 AM
I think this comes down to what you think of the GM in general. This is the sort of thing I'd tolerate from a GM I had a lot of trust in because I'd trust that they were going somewhere interesting with it, even if it seems stupid at the moment. If they don't have that sort of credit built up I'd view it far more unfavourably.

willoftheway
2018-07-22, 02:20 AM
BTW, why would I automatically want to kill the doppelganger?

Because if I remember correctly, if it's the monster the doppelganger and not the colloquial usage of the word, it wants to murder you.

That being said, I'd say it sounds like you're being set up for a plot involving heavy divine influence, putting your character in a position to make one of those character defining choices - will he find faith in the Divine, or will he maintain his faithlessness in spite of the Fate that awaits him for it. Now if none of this interests you at all, I can understand that, it's not the type of game I'd always be down for either. But "too far"?

To me it sounds more like a communications breakdown. Either you weren't clear enough with what sort of game you were seeking to play, the GM wasn't clear enough with what he was seeking to run, there was a failure to understand on someone's side, or some combination thereof. Talk to the GM. Tell them you're not really cool with where this seems to be heading. If they aren't receptive to that then it's probably time to find a new GM. Or perhaps they'll tell you something entirely different about where it is heading and it might be enjoyable. Either way, comes down to making the lines of communication as crystal clear as possible

WindStruck
2018-07-22, 02:33 AM
Because if I remember correctly, if it's the monster the doppelganger and not the colloquial usage of the word, it wants to murder you.
I'm just casually using the word "doppelganger". As far as I know, it's just some sort of clone, and it was living, breathing, and sleeping currently, but could not get any other information besides that. Unless my character woke it up. But I paused the game before that.


That being said, I'd say it sounds like you're being set up for a plot involving heavy divine influence, putting your character in a position to make one of those character defining choices - will he find faith in the Divine, or will he maintain his faithlessness in spite of the Fate that awaits him for it. Now if none of this interests you at all, I can understand that, it's not the type of game I'd always be down for either. But "too far"?After visiting a few spirits who knew a bit about some gods (seems like the DM picked ones most likely to be compatible) I had settled on what I would do. I was really hoping it would be a done deal with no extreme craziness after that.


To me it sounds more like a communications breakdown. Either you weren't clear enough with what sort of game you were seeking to play, the GM wasn't clear enough with what he was seeking to run, there was a failure to understand on someone's side, or some combination thereof. Talk to the GM. Tell them you're not really cool with where this seems to be heading. If they aren't receptive to that then it's probably time to find a new GM. Or perhaps they'll tell you something entirely different about where it is heading and it might be enjoyable. Either way, comes down to making the lines of communication as crystal clear as possible

Sadly, the type of game I was going for was very clear. It was supposed to be one of those "capitalism ho!" type things. Not exactly a super high fantasy epic adventure type of ordeal.

DeTess
2018-07-22, 03:17 AM
Have you explained all this to your DM? If not do so. If he's a reasonable person (like 99% of the human population), he might tone it down a bit if he had no further plans with it. Or alternatively, this is the lead-in to something bigger, and you should probably roll with it until you know the pay-off.

Ninja_Prawn
2018-07-22, 03:21 AM
BTW, why would I automatically want to kill the doppelganger?

Because (https://xkcd.com/716/). :smalltongue:

To the original point, this plot twist does seem a bit extreme. Particularly in a solo game, I would have thought that the direction of the plot should be more of a collaborative effort between player and DM than normal... That said, maybe this isn't such a big deal? It could just be some wacky shenanigan that your character can move on from. "Yikes, I'm not going into that church again." Even if it is part of an 'epic quest' type situation, your PC could just refuse to go along with it; in a solo game, who's going to force you?

So the first port of call has to be an OOC conversation, as willoftheway says. Find out what your DM was going for with this course of events and see if you can come to some mutual alignment. I don't see many other ways forward.

WindStruck
2018-07-22, 04:01 AM
Yeah, I have tried to talk with them. It devolved into a pedantic debate on what realism in the game is and what player agency is...

My problem with letting something like that go uncontested is that it just OKs more completely random events like that.

So I guess I'm asking how you would explain that this violates player agency and realism in the game, but if you guys are mostly ok with it, then I dunno, seems like you wouldn't have ideas in that case.

Pleh
2018-07-22, 04:57 AM
So I guess I'm asking how you would explain that this violates player agency and realism in the game,

"It's about as random an event as saying that it begins to rain outside."

When was the last time that it rained, separated you from all civilization for a week, and replaced you with a clone until you got back?

Put it another way. If your character walks down the street and tells a few peopke this story, will they hear that this is a common experience, or will people think you're crazy?

Based on what you've said, that's where I'd tackle realism arguments. As a player, should you expect to encounter this sort of setback more often? Is it potentially profitable when it occurs? If not, how can it be avoided? If it's not helpful and can't be avoided, how is that supposed to be fair and fun (or even a game at all)?

This is branching into player agency, but moving forward depends sonewhat on their responses up to this point.

Maelynn
2018-07-22, 07:01 AM
Think about what kind of powers could simultaneously transport my character to another plane, and create a copy of myself in the same space, in the same instant, replacing me as if nothing happened.

My character was very low level and had not pissed off any gods or epic-level casters, so I guess the question comes up, what justifies this sort of event? And how would it even be remotely possible?

[...]

Keep in mind that making an exact clone of someone is already extremely hard to do. It's just the fact that I was quite literally replaced while surrounded by like dozens of people who didn't notice, and no one else my character also interacts with seemed to notice any changes either.

You're metagaming. You don't have an explanation for what could've caused the events, so you're dismissing the story because of it. The DM might have an explanation you didn't think of, and it's his good right not to show his hand to you.


I think my biggest problem with the whole thing is that my character was merely attending an ordinary religious mass. I never asked for this sort of thing to happen. It just comes at me as too wild and out of the blue, and a very poor way of making a change to my character that generally isn't even remotely outlined in rules or good storytelling.

Bolded the bit that makes you sound like an angsty reluctant hero. I'm sure you don't mean to come off that way, but it is quite the trope (no really, it is (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IJustWantToBeNormal?from=Main.Reluctanthero)). "oh noes, divine powers have put me in a situation that I didn't want, that's so unfair..."

You're resisting a plot hook just because you can't look into the future and see where it will lead. Well, that's how most stories go - you just roll with it and see where you end up.


You can look at the silver lining and say "ooh, plot hook!" but I just don't want that. I already had like three or four things/goals my character was already working on, so just throwing another massive, mindtwisting, reality-questioning iron onto the fire was something I wasn't happy with.

You're not the one writing the story though, the DM does that. You can't dictate him what plot to go with just because it's something you happen to be working on.

Now, if there's a plot hook that you're really not comfortable with, then by all means convey that to the DM. Tell him you're not happy with the way this is going, especially because this is a solo game where you don't have to take other players into account. However, don't expect him to fully run the story your way; it's why he is DM and you're the player.

Maelynn
2018-07-22, 07:03 AM
Think about what kind of powers could simultaneously transport my character to another plane, and create a copy of myself in the same space, in the same instant, replacing me as if nothing happened.

My character was very low level and had not pissed off any gods or epic-level casters, so I guess the question comes up, what justifies this sort of event? And how would it even be remotely possible?

[...]

Keep in mind that making an exact clone of someone is already extremely hard to do. It's just the fact that I was quite literally replaced while surrounded by like dozens of people who didn't notice, and no one else my character also interacts with seemed to notice any changes either.

You're metagaming - as in, using your own (lack of) knowledge as a player to judge events. You don't have an explanation for what could've caused the events, so you're dismissing the story because of it. The DM might have an explanation you didn't think of, and it's his good right not to show his hand to you.


I think my biggest problem with the whole thing is that my character was merely attending an ordinary religious mass. I never asked for this sort of thing to happen. It just comes at me as too wild and out of the blue, and a very poor way of making a change to my character that generally isn't even remotely outlined in rules or good storytelling.

Bolded the bit that makes you sound like an angsty reluctant hero. I'm sure you don't mean to come off that way, but it is quite the trope (no really, it is (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IJustWantToBeNormal?from=Main.Reluctanthero)). "oh noes, divine powers have put me in a situation that I didn't want, that's so unfair..."

You're resisting a plot hook just because you can't look into the future and see where it will lead. Well, that's how most stories go - you just roll with it and see where you end up.


You can look at the silver lining and say "ooh, plot hook!" but I just don't want that. I already had like three or four things/goals my character was already working on, so just throwing another massive, mindtwisting, reality-questioning iron onto the fire was something I wasn't happy with.

You're not the one writing the story though, the DM does that. You can't dictate him what plot to go with just because it's something you happen to be working on.

Now, if there's a plot hook that you're really not comfortable with, then by all means convey that to the DM. Tell him you're not happy with the way this is going, especially because this is a solo game where you don't have to take other players into account. However, don't expect him to fully run the story your way; it's why he is DM and you're the player.

Lalliman
2018-07-22, 07:43 AM
So I guess I'm asking how you would explain that this violates player agency and realism in the game, but if you guys are mostly ok with it, then I dunno, seems like you wouldn't have ideas in that case.
I would avoid calling on realism as an argument, since that's mostly out of the window in a fantasy setting anyways. Realism tends to be the go-to complaint that people have about a game when they don't like it but can't express exactly why, and it kind of strawmans their own argument.

That said, I understand your frustration. I like to sucker-punch my players with challenging twists, but I always make sure that A) the twist feels like a feasible event rather than something I am arbitrarily pulling on them, B) the twist has some foreshadowing or at least makes sense in hindsight, and C) the players get a reasonable opportunity to prevent the unexpected event from having serious consequences for them.

For example, to name something similar to your situation, I recently had a character's identity stolen by a doppelganger. However, this character was the prince of a nation, which makes it easy to understand why he was targeted instead of anyone else (check to point B). His replacement happened while he was out of the city for a week, providing ample opportunity for this to happen (check to point A). The party also arrived back at the city only a day after the doppelganger took up the character's identity, thus getting an opportunity to unmask him before he could create any major changes or problems (check to point C).

Your DM probably intends to check box B somewhere down the line, but it sounds like he definitely didn't tick box A and C, with the event happening in an overtly magical way that defies conventional understanding and thus comes down to 'it happens because I say so' (A), and the doppelganger getting a whole week to run free in your shoes with you having been unable to do anything against this event until now (C). That doesn't mean it's definitely bad and evil for him to do that, some (many perhaps) people will be fine with it, but you are certainly allowed to feel cheated if you did not agree to the DM having that kind of power over your character.

Above all, the DM has shown his willingness to utilise powers far above your control in order to shape the narrative. The DM is obviously omnipotent within the game, but the game ideally functions on the assumption that the DM will adhere to the rules of cause and effect, and will not create events of a magnitude that are impossible for the players to have any influence on. By hamfistedly pulling you into a narrative like this, he seems to have set the precedent that he will make this narrative happen regardless of whether you go along with it or whether reasonable opportunities for it present themselves. Many DMs will run the game that way to greater or lesser extent. It's up to you to either be ok with it and see where it goes, to convince him to run it differently, or to quit the game if neither of the previous options are effective.

Pex
2018-07-22, 08:08 AM
What's bothering you is a sense of loss of control of your character. Events happened because of DM fiat. You go to the outer planes just because. You come back a week later just because. You were impersonated just because.

The cynical version is the DM is being a donkey cavity jerking you around for the lulz. While not a 0% chance that's what happened, the more likely version is the DM set up a plot hook. Maybe the doppelganger is part of the church who was you while you were on your spiritual journey. Maybe someone was taking advantage of your absence. Maybe your spiritual journey was faked, and your boss needs something from you you wouldn't want to give him.

A DM using fiat this way is not unheard of despite all good intentions. Your angst is the difference between the DM forcing you on the plot hook and you choosing to go on the obvious plot hook as the only adventure the DM prepared such that your choice wasn't really a choice because if you don't do it there's no game that day. Players don't mind doing the obvious plot hook. They usually do it. They want to be able to choose it for the freedom of that one time they choose not to.

Continue the game. If the DM is taking away your choices you'll know it. If he's not, forgive how he introduced the plot hook.

Socratov
2018-07-22, 08:23 AM
In my not so humble opinion, this is a polothook. A hamfisted plothook hammered home with the lack of subtlety only a sledgehammer is capable of, but a plothook all the same.

Also, with your character, in your eyes, having completed most of his/her/its goals has not many ways to go. Maybe this was a way for the DM to shake things up again and stir some trouble to get the story moving again. But maybe you had wanted to retire your character or 'play house'. As a DM myself I can't say that I speak for yours, but imo 'playing house' is the single most boring thing to do while roleplaying. I myself eliminate all clutter from such games (I don't track encumbrance as long as it's not significant to the story) as it provides little to no enjoyment to me. I can understand for your DM to have 'robbed' your character form his goodies only to reintroduce some drama and tension (and thus story elements) into the game. But without more information (as the premise, world, character and session 0 notes) I can't tell you any more about wether or not my thoughts may lead somewhere.

As for my recommendation, talk to your DM and state that you were expecting something different (i.e. a quiet end to your character's arc.) and to inquire wether he felt the same way or wanted to add in some drama/excitement and where he sees the game going from heren on.

WindStruck
2018-07-22, 09:35 AM
You're metagaming.
If I was metagaming, I would be using OOC knowledge in order to play the game. Particularly, to yield an advantage through knowledge my character couldn't possibly have. In reality, all I wanted to do was put a stop on things and ask, "wtf is going on?"


Bolded the bit that makes you sound like an angsty reluctant hero.

You're resisting a plot hook just because you can't look into the future and see where it will lead. Well, that's how most stories go - you just roll with it and see where you end up.
Shouldn't judge people because a sentence they type vaguely resembles something on TV Tropes. And I'm actually resisting the plothook because there was no conceivable way this could have reasonably happened. Nor any motive that makes sense.


You're not the one writing the story though, the DM does that. You can't dictate him what plot to go with just because it's something you happen to be working on.
Silly me, and here I thought both the DM and player(s) are supposed to be making a story together.

Thanks everyone for your inputs.

mgshamster
2018-07-22, 10:02 AM
So if I understand correctly, what we have here is a tour of the Planes and a supernatural event, only to find yourself back the normal and a copy of you has been living your life?

That sounds awesome! Prelude into mystery and adventure!

Will people believe that I am who I am, or believe the copy? Am I the copy? Why did this happen? What did the tour mean? Is it a prelude to things to come?

I'm not seeing how any of this is "going too far." This all sounds pretty cool to me.

TheStranger
2018-07-22, 10:23 AM
If I was metagaming, I would be using OOC knowledge in order to play the game. Particularly, to yield an advantage through knowledge my character couldn't possibly have. In reality, all I wanted to do was put a stop on things and ask, "wtf is going on?"


Shouldn't judge people because a sentence they type vaguely resembles something on TV Tropes. And I'm actually resisting the plothook because there was no conceivable way this could have reasonably happened. Nor any motive that makes sense.


Silly me, and here I thought both the DM and player(s) are supposed to be making a story together.

Thanks everyone for your inputs.

Sure, but you run your player and the DM runs literally everything else in the world. Apparently part of that is the invasion of the divine body-snatchers. It could be a pretty cool plot hook, it's certainly *some* kind of plot hook. I think you're being a little hasty in rejecting it - this extraordinary thing happened, and you're just saying it's too extraordinary, instead of reacting to it and finding out what's going on.

That said, the larger problem here might be that you and your DM have mismatched expectations about what kind of game and setting you're playing. As a player, if I signed up for a gritty western European fantasy game, and the DM populated the setting with elements out of Exalted, I'd be upset. You had a game you wanted to play, and if that doesn't match up with the game the DM wants to run, you should talk about that.

Maelynn
2018-07-22, 10:37 AM
If I was metagaming, I would be using OOC knowledge in order to play the game.

Metagaming is more than just 'play', there are more aspects. One of which I already mentioned in the same sentence - which somehow disappeared while quoting. Isn't that odd.


Shouldn't judge people because a sentence they type vaguely resembles something on TV Tropes. And I'm actually resisting the plothook because there was no conceivable way this could have reasonably happened. Nor any motive that makes sense.

Not just one sentence, trust me. Over half of what you posted in this thread sounds like it. Even in this quote you say there's 'no conceivable way' and how it 'doesn't make sense' - you don't know what events led to this, so your lack of knowledge is preventing you from grabbing the plothook and seeing what awesome story it might lead you to.

As for judging, note how in my coment I said "sounds like". As well as "I'm sure you don't mean to come off that way". That's not judging, that's interpreting what someone types on a forum. Happens all the time here, because, y'know, you kinda have to do that when you don't know the whole story and have to go by what one person tells you. You want judging? Judging is saying that you just didn't like the storyteller tossing a plot on your plate that you didn't enjoy, that frustrates you because you can't figure out the plot yet, how you had your own plans and are sad the DM took a different course, how you come to a forum needing to hear people tell you you're right, and then giving attitude to people who disagree with you based only on what they are told. Now that would be judging. Good thing I don't do that.

Now for a final comment with the snark turned off: ask the DM if there's going to be a good explanation for everything in the end. If there is, then trust him and go with the plot - try to enjoy it.

Deophaun
2018-07-22, 11:06 AM
"Sorry, but this is not the kind of campaign I signed up for and I'm just not interested in what it's becoming. Can we get back to monopolizing the cheese trade?"

As others have said, it is hamfisted and I'm with you that it would pull me out of the setting. But as horror stories go, this is an episode of Carebears.

Pippa the Pixie
2018-07-22, 11:16 AM
My DM did step out of line, right? At the very least, we should be negotiating for a game that is fun for everyone?

What would you say (preferably in small words) that would clearly explain why what they did was wrong?

It does not seem like a big deal or out of line to me. Things happen in the game, and you react to them: basic RPGing.


Too far as in overextending suspension of disbelief? Using too much DM fiat?

Suspension of disbelief? In a fantasy world? When your talking about fantasy, exactly what is too far? And DM fiat is one of them silly terms that just means ''anything a DM does", right?



Think about what kind of powers could simultaneously transport my character to another plane, and create a copy of myself in the same space, in the same instant, replacing me as if nothing happened.

Powers like what, game rules? Was this D&D? If so, the spell plane shift is in core. Also, the vision does sound a bit like an illusion maybe? Maybe a psionic power?



My character was very low level and had not pissed off any gods or epic-level casters, so I guess the question comes up, what justifies this sort of event? And how would it even be remotely possible?

Well, it depends on the game and the rules used, but what you describe does not sound impossible. Did the events really feel like epic level god events to you? Plane shift or illusions and a doppelganger? Not exactly ''epic''.



Keep in mind that making an exact clone of someone is already extremely hard to do. It's just the fact that I was quite literally replaced while surrounded by like dozens of people who didn't notice, and no one else my character also interacts with seemed to notice any changes either.

Not really, depending on the game. But was it a clone or doppelganger or what? In like most games there is a deception or disguise skill and Illusions again. A hat of disguise maybe? Maybe the 'clone' cast charm person on everyone?



Of course, yes, different planes may be known for variation in time speeds, but I think my biggest problem with the whole thing is that my character was merely attending an ordinary religious mass. I never asked for this sort of thing to happen. It just comes at me as too wild and out of the blue, and a very poor way of making a change to my character that generally isn't even remotely outlined in rules or good storytelling.

Well, I have a huge problem with the part where you ''never asked for this sort of thing to happen". As a player you don't really ''ask'' for anything specific to happen. If you did you would not exactly be paying the game. Like to say, ''ok, DM, by that tree I want to goblin bandits to attack me" is just silly, and very few games are like that.

Is not wild things out of the blue a good reason to play RPGs? When someone, player or DM, does something and your like ''woah, wow, did not see that coming!"



Sadly, the type of game I was going for was very clear. It was supposed to be one of those "capitalism ho!" type things. Not exactly a super high fantasy epic adventure type of ordeal.

Capitalism ho? Like your character was a merchant?


My problem with letting something like that go uncontested is that it just OKs more completely random events like that.

So I guess I'm asking how you would explain that this violates player agency and realism in the game, but if you guys are mostly ok with it, then I dunno, seems like you wouldn't have ideas in that case.

Well, this is more of the only what you expect and want, right? So is your beef with the totally random event? Or more just the totally random event that you did not like? To say you are against totally random events is to say you want nothing to ever happen in the game? After all, everything is random, right?

The realism of a fantasy game?



Shouldn't judge people because a sentence they type vaguely resembles something on TV Tropes. And I'm actually resisting the plothook because there was no conceivable way this could have reasonably happened. Nor any motive that makes sense.

Ok, big but here, but is this not always true of a player? A player very often won't know the reasons or motives or ways something could make sense. That is part of the game, all the unknowns. You can't expect to understand and know everything instantaneously, right?



Silly me, and here I thought both the DM and player(s) are supposed to be making a story together.


Well, how long were you playing in this game? Like a week? A year? Were you ''making a story together'' before this one event? If so what changed?

The DM says an event happens, you have your player react to it or you have your player take an action and the DM has the game world react to it. Did this happen in your game? If so, what suddenly changed?

Kish
2018-07-22, 11:23 AM
Capitalism ho? Like your character was a merchant?
That phrase sounds more like their character was a sex worker, actually...

I concur with most of the other people who responded. Based on the information given, I can't tell for sure if the DM just made something nonsensical happen because it would be "kewl," or this is a plot development, but my default expectation would be the latter. If you had an unstated assumption that nothing high-magic would happen in a D&D game, my advice is: don't ever make that assumption again.

It's seeming increasingly like this thread should have been titled something like: "My DM definitely went too far, only respond if you agree."

Zarrgon
2018-07-22, 11:33 AM
As others have said, it is hamfisted and I'm with you that it would pull me out of the setting. But as horror stories go, this is an episode of Carebears.

This was my thought too. Like 'The evil'Sour Sam the Pie Man' is out to ruin Thanksgiving with his 'Crabby Apple Pies' and only the Care Bears can stop him. ' LOL

Seriously though, most RPGs will have things you don't like, or agree with or want to happen in them. That is just part of the gameplay.

GrayDeath
2018-07-22, 12:13 PM
In a normal D&D Game? Nope.
As others have said, a nice, mysterious plothook, if hamfistedly executed.

In a Game advertized as "realistic" and centering on "Capitalism"? Likely.

Just tell him this is not developing like the agreed upon Game style, in your opinion, and any reasonably nice DM will talk with youa bout it.

Just tone down the drama. ^^

Socratov
2018-07-22, 12:29 PM
[snip]
It's seeming increasingly like this thread should have been titled something like: "My DM definitely went too far, only respond if you agree."

And yet the opposite seems to be true: the thread is not names thus and most people have reacted in disagreement :smallbiggrin:

WindStruck
2018-07-22, 02:44 PM
There's no need to be offensive. I really just wanted to know what the community thought, and I pushed back and clarified a bit where questions were asked.

I'm not interested in a protracted debate, however. I already have your opinions that most actually think this is a cool development. Also I am sure the debate of the meaning of realism in a fantasy game has been done fifty times on these forums. No point doing it over again.

Morghen
2018-07-22, 03:50 PM
I'm mostly with OP.

You originally didn't give us a ton of details about the game, so we all brought our own frames of reference in, which gave you responses like "Extra-planar travel? Sure. What's the big deal? Stop being a baby."

But once you clarified that you'd signed up for a low-magic, "I wanna run a merchant empire" kind of thing, then your hesitancy made sense. The problem is that you didn't give any details and wanted everybody to immediately condemn the GM's actions as wrong under any circumstances. But it wasn't wrong under any circumstances, especially in the most frequently played system on this message board.

Unrelated: "Capitalism Ho!" and extra-planar travel leads me to believe your GM is a big fan of Charles Dickens.

TL;DR
OP is correct. GM shouldn't suddenly throw high-magic shenanigans around in a low-magic setting/system.

Thrudd
2018-07-22, 04:18 PM
If you want to keep playing, I'd just take it in stride, don't argue it. It's not a great sign that the DM would do a thing like this, but you're still in control of your character. So just go on like it never happened, your character pursues the things that are important to him. He'll be annoyed that this happened to him, probably avoid going to religious rituals in the future, and hopefully the clone will disappear now that he's back (or maybe it isn't a clone, the character has been in astral form and that is his actual body lying there, he just needs to reoccupy his body- though if your body was doing stuff without your mind/spirit being there, that's not how astral travel usually works.)
You can send a message to the DM that this isn't what you want in a campaign by playing the character the way you want to play him. Try to ignore and avoid the things you (the character) aren't interested in, go after what you want to go after.

Hooligan
2018-07-22, 04:49 PM
That phrase sounds more like their character was a sex worker, actually...

High comedy

Reversefigure4
2018-07-22, 05:12 PM
In terms of narrative convenience (answering the question of 'My PC is nobody particularly special, why did this happen to me?'), it's one of those things you have to let slide by for a game. Why does Farmer Bob who picks up a sword to fight the goblins find a string of adventures that lead to him becoming the hero of the continent, while Farmer Dave doesn't encounter the goblins and never becomes anything? Because Bob is a PC, and if adventure hooks didn't happen to him, there wouldn't be much of a game. "The gods intervene and you're replaced by a doppleganger" just sounds like a plot hook, the sort of thing that happens to adventurers from time to time.

But if you signed up for low-level, down to earth games, this plot hook seems contrary to the initial setup. It depends how must trust you have in your GM. If you've played several games before and enjoyed the twists and turns, assume this will go somewhere interesting and go with it. If you don't trust the GM, stop the game, explain you don't want to play adventures that are this epic and divine in nature, and want to ret-con the event away to be more in keeping with the low-level no magic pitch you wanted to play originally.

The best solution is to explain to the GM why you're unhappy with this. Is it the loss of agency, or more the intrusion of high-level epic events in a simple merchant campaign? Nail down what's bothering you, and ask the GM for less of it.

WindStruck
2018-07-22, 05:16 PM
Well, you can't just ignore new developments of such magnitude and proximity to the character without both being a terrible roleplayer and putting your character in danger. For example, you can't just "ignore" criminals trying to rob you at gun point. You do that in real life, you get stabbed very quickly and easily. You do that in a game, the DM has all legitimate authority to roll attack rolls and damage rolls on your hapless character.

To be a good roleplayer or even a good player, you can't simply ignore the DM's wishes or what they do. Unfortunately it's all too common that the reverse can happen frequently with little repercussions.

Pippa the Pixie
2018-07-22, 05:49 PM
Well, you can't just ignore new developments of such magnitude and proximity to the character without both being a terrible roleplayer and putting your character in danger. For example, you can't just "ignore" criminals trying to rob you at gun point. You do that in real life, you get stabbed very quickly and easily. You do that in a game, the DM has all legitimate authority to roll attack rolls and damage rolls on your hapless character.

To be a good roleplayer or even a good player, you can't simply ignore the DM's wishes or what they do. Unfortunately it's all too common that the reverse can happen frequently with little repercussions.

Where the events of such magnitude and proximity though? Your character had a vision or something, and might have encountered a clone or something. Was there more?

To just have an encounter like you mentioned, is not exactly equal to criminals trying to rob you at gun point. Did the visions or the clone attack your character and try to kill them?

It's true enough you can't like ignore the DM...you can't say to them not there are no criminals trying to rob my character! But you can not follow plot hooks, or leads or suggestions. Most DMs fill a world with hooks, but you don't have to bite them all.

You seem to imply a DM can ignore a player or the players wishes? Did that happen here?

Koo Rehtorb
2018-07-22, 05:52 PM
There is nothing wrong with saying "Hey. This sort of stuff doesn't fit the tone we agreed on for the game. Can we steer away from it in the future please?" Tone is not a thing GM gets to unilaterally control.

Thrudd
2018-07-22, 06:04 PM
Well, you can't just ignore new developments of such magnitude and proximity to the character without both being a terrible roleplayer and putting your character in danger. For example, you can't just "ignore" criminals trying to rob you at gun point. You do that in real life, you get stabbed very quickly and easily. You do that in a game, the DM has all legitimate authority to roll attack rolls and damage rolls on your hapless character.

To be a good roleplayer or even a good player, you can't simply ignore the DM's wishes or what they do. Unfortunately it's all too common that the reverse can happen frequently with little repercussions.

Was your character given an ultimatum by a god or something? What did he learn from his trip to the astral? I mean, role play the character how you want. When I say "ignore", I don't mean to pretend a guy isn't trying to stab you. Your character does not need to have the expected or stereotypical reaction to events. Did he, at some point, say "hey, Mr.god guy - why am I here? Can you send me back home? I've got business to attend to." Maybe the DM wants you to react as though you've been given a divine quest and you now are going to abandon your worldly cares and become a paladin or something - but not every person will react that way. Maybe your character takes exception at being zipped away from his body against his will. Maybe this little trip did nothing to help him nor to alter his desires to become rich or whatever it is he wants. Maybe the DM is trying to prod you into being a hero - but you can be a reluctant hero. Maybe your character is the type of guy who makes the "wrong" choice a lot of the time (at least from the POV of the gods, or fate, or whatever.) So you've been threatened with a torturous afterlife - maybe your character resents how the gods are trying to control him and goes on doing what he wants to do anyway. Roleplaying is just making choices as your character, it isn't bad roleplaying to make the unexpected choice. "But no reasonable person would do that!" Maybe he isn't all that reasonable. Maybe he's too strong-willed. His reaction to randomly being zipped away from his life could be resentment towards the beings that would do that and a desire to keep away from them. Maybe he'll take this to mean that he needs to find a way to circumvent what the gods have told him.

In a one-on-one game, the DM needs to adjust to how you play your character as much as you need to acknowledge what the DM has put in front of you. If he's planning a railroad for you, and you don't want the railroad, then you need to refuse to get on the train - either in game or out of game.

Kelb_Panthera
2018-07-22, 07:51 PM
So a bored trickster god wants to play "The Hangover" with your character. This is nothing to get bent out of shape over. Just roll with it.

Mr Beer
2018-07-22, 08:18 PM
Does not sound like a big deal but also does sound cringy. So aesthetically I don't like it, as far as 'player agency' goes, it's whatever.

WindStruck
2018-07-22, 09:18 PM
Was your character given an ultimatum by a god or something? What did he learn from his trip to the astral? I mean, role play the character how you want. When I say "ignore", I don't mean to pretend a guy isn't trying to stab you. Your character does not need to have the expected or stereotypical reaction to events. Did he, at some point, say "hey, Mr.god guy - why am I here? Can you send me back home? I've got business to attend to." Maybe the DM wants you to react as though you've been given a divine quest and you now are going to abandon your worldly cares and become a paladin or something - but not every person will react that way. Maybe your character takes exception at being zipped away from his body against his will. Maybe this little trip did nothing to help him nor to alter his desires to become rich or whatever it is he wants. Maybe the DM is trying to prod you into being a hero - but you can be a reluctant hero. Maybe your character is the type of guy who makes the "wrong" choice a lot of the time (at least from the POV of the gods, or fate, or whatever.) So you've been threatened with a torturous afterlife - maybe your character resents how the gods are trying to control him and goes on doing what he wants to do anyway. Roleplaying is just making choices as your character, it isn't bad roleplaying to make the unexpected choice. "But no reasonable person would do that!" Maybe he isn't all that reasonable. Maybe he's too strong-willed. His reaction to randomly being zipped away from his life could be resentment towards the beings that would do that and a desire to keep away from them. Maybe he'll take this to mean that he needs to find a way to circumvent what the gods have told him.

In a one-on-one game, the DM needs to adjust to how you play your character as much as you need to acknowledge what the DM has put in front of you. If he's planning a railroad for you, and you don't want the railroad, then you need to refuse to get on the train - either in game or out of game.

Or maybe it's a mountain of BS.

There's a lot of details you still are assuming, don't understand, or which I have left out. There was basically no communication with gods at all, up until the random magical kidnapping and cloning. Even then, I was only talking to entities somewhat like spirit guides, not the gods themselves.

My character actually learned names of some gods and what they stood there. She ultimately chose a deity (or several) she would try worshiping, in good faith. So it's not like the intro to some epic divine quest. This was basically Theology Class 101. My character had expressed concerns that she didn't really know what was going on, either here or where she came from, and wanted to go back previously. Only after like the third time when she explicitly asked, did it happen.

The DM wanting me to abandon what I'm doing and become some kind of paladin is out of the question. Same thing for a hero in general. The type of game I wanted was explicitly clear. Not focused on killing things at all, really. Basically, the pitch/goal for my character was to run a magic shop.

Even the point of view that it was the gods trying to control my character is quite disturbing. What would trying to spite or defy them do? Any attempt at being contrary, trying to avoid religious gatherings... why bother? It's pretty clear the precedent would mean literally ANY off-the-wall thing could happen for NO reason. Sort of like how Pleh describes it, it felt like things were just going to keep happening, that if she told anyone about it, they would think she was absolutely out of her mind.

Thrudd
2018-07-22, 09:52 PM
Or maybe it's a mountain of BS.

There's a lot of details you still are assuming, don't understand, or which I have left out. There was basically no communication with gods at all, up until the random magical kidnapping and cloning. Even then, I was only talking to entities somewhat like spirit guides, not the gods themselves.

My character actually learned names of some gods and what they stood there. She ultimately chose a deity (or several) she would try worshiping, in good faith. So it's not like the intro to some epic divine quest. This was basically Theology Class 101. My character had expressed concerns that she didn't really know what was going on, either here or where she came from, and wanted to go back previously. Only after like the third time when she explicitly asked, did it happen.

The DM wanting me to abandon what I'm doing and become some kind of paladin is out of the question. Same thing for a hero in general. The type of game I wanted was explicitly clear. Not focused on killing things at all, really. Basically, the pitch/goal for my character was to run a magic shop.

Even the point of view that it was the gods trying to control my character is quite disturbing. What would trying to spite or defy them do? Any attempt at being contrary, trying to avoid religious gatherings... why bother? It's pretty clear the precedent would mean literally ANY off-the-wall thing could happen for NO reason. Sort of like how Pleh describes it, it felt like things were just going to keep happening, that if she told anyone about it, they would think she was absolutely out of her mind.

Obviously I didn't have the details, I was just using generalities and examples trying to imagine why a DM would do such a thing. So it was some kind of in-game tutorial on the cosmology of the Realms? Seems like a waste of a game session.

Yeah, if this stuff keeps happening, completely unrelated to your character's activity, and using up the session time you hoped would be spent doing whatever/shop keeping - then I'd say the DM has no intent to allow you to play the game you expected. That's when you get off the railroad by getting out of the game. I was just suggesting trying to avoid the railroad in-character first, to see if the DM would get the drift. But I, too, don't totally trust that someone who would pull what they did would understand or concede that anything was wrong nor stop doing it. If they think its normal for average people to randomly get transported to the outer plains for days at a time, the setting and the game is going to be very weird and not grounded at all.

Reversefigure4
2018-07-22, 09:59 PM
The question is, what are you going to do about it now? You're unhappy with how the campaign's rolled out (expected premise vs presented premise). Whether or not the DM's 'gone too far', that's a problem that needs fixing.

You can try and passive-aggressively avoid getting involved further in the plot, but that's just likely to result in less and less subtle plot hooks landing (culminating in "The Gods geas you to go and do X"). Talking to your GM about where you want the campaign to go is pretty much the only solution.

Jay R
2018-07-22, 10:06 PM
You don't have enough information yet.

This could be a meaningless, ham-fisted attempt to take all agency away from you.

This could be the coolest, most immersive, most fascinating game idea you've ever played.

You will not know until you play it out.

Rynjin
2018-07-22, 10:07 PM
I do not want to get too much into exact setting, character, or campaign details, but this sums up what happened:

... saw the wall of the faithless

I just find it pretty funny you say "not gonna name the setting" but then name a feature specific and unique to a specific setting.


So if I understand correctly, what we have here is a tour of the Planes and a supernatural event, only to find yourself back the normal and a copy of you has been living your life?

That sounds awesome! Prelude into mystery and adventure!

Will people believe that I am who I am, or believe the copy? Am I the copy? Why did this happen? What did the tour mean? Is it a prelude to things to come?

I'm not seeing how any of this is "going too far." This all sounds pretty cool to me.

YMMV. The whole thing read as some kind of weird evangelism on the GM's part to me, and it's what I'd assume with a GM I have little experience with. I've had weirder out of nowhere plot twists and agendas thrust on me playing with random strangers than "Surprise! This is actually a thinly veiled thesis on the importance of religion!".

Best case it's weird, out of nowhere, and doesn't fit the established tone and premise of the game, so it's still an iffy move.

TheStranger
2018-07-22, 10:15 PM
You can try and passive-aggressively avoid getting involved further in the plot, but that's just likely to result in less and less subtle plot hooks landing (culminating in "The Gods geas you to go and do X"). Talking to your GM about where you want the campaign to go is pretty much the only solution.

Yeah, don't try to solve this in-game. This is a textbook "talk about it OOC" situation.

But, and I think this is what put some people off at the start of the thread, don't approach it in term of your DM "going too far." In a lot of games, that type of plot hook wouldn't be out of line at all. The problem is that you don't seem to be on the same page about what *type* of game this is. There's no right or wrong there, just something that you need to sort out. Assigning blame isn't going to help.

If you talk to your DM and he has no interest in running the type of game you want, and you have no interest in playing the type of game he wants to run, then you abandon the game with no hard feelings. Or maybe he changes his plans, and/or you decide he has some good ideas, and you go on with a good campaign.

Also, since nobody else has said it, I think your DM didn't go too far enough.

Deophaun
2018-07-22, 11:16 PM
Alternate idea: Roleplay someone who just wants to run a magic shop and is annoyed by/aggressively ignoring these crazy occurrences. Agents of the gods whisk you away to talk theology? Try to sell them a spell book. Divine messengers in your shop? Talk really loud to your customers while they're trying to tell you something to drown them out.

Note: This is not about you being passive aggressive. You accept that this is happening in the game. It's about your character not accepting that it's happening in her life. It might be fun.

TheStranger
2018-07-22, 11:38 PM
Alternate idea: Roleplay someone who just wants to run a magic shop and is annoyed by/aggressively ignoring these crazy occurrences. Agents of the gods whisk you away to talk theology? Try to sell them a spell book. Divine messengers in your shop? Talk really loud to your customers while they're trying to tell you something to drown them out.

Note: This is not about you being passive aggressive. You accept that this is happening in the game. It's about your character not accepting that it's happening in her life. It might be fun.

That could be fun. But again, talk to the DM first. Because most DMs are going to read that as a player aggressively refusing to engage with plot hooks, and unless they're in on the gag they're just going to get increasingly annoyed with the player. Especially if they've put a lot of time into planning a really cool adventure, if they player would just take the hint already.

There are several different types of game (or points on a continuum) that fall under the heading "I run a magic shop."
1) I run a magic shop, and most/all of what happens in the game is related to that (OP's goal, as I understand it).
2) I'm trying to run a magic shop, but all this crazy stuff keeps getting in the way (your suggestion).
3) I run a magic shop, and also go on adventures which may or may not be related to my magic shop (sounds like the DM is at least here, if not at number 4).
4) I run a magic shop in my downtime between adventures.

If the DM and the player aren't trying to play roughly the same style of game, that's an OOC problem. I suppose there's a minority of players and DMs who are able to just roll with it and get on the same page through trial and error in-character. But more often, you'll have a DM frustrated because they've wasted their planning work on stuff the player has no interest in, and players frustrated because the DM isn't giving them a chance to do the sorts of things they want to do.

Ronnocius
2018-07-23, 01:55 AM
rob you at gun point.

get stabbed


Seems legit.

In all seriousness I fail to see how this is 'going too far'. If you want to play a 'capitalism ho!' game (still unsure what that exactly entails) that is all fine and good, but the DM doesn't work for you and isn't beholden to run that exact game all the time. I see you have mentioned a theme of running a magic shop. Perhaps the DM takes that to mean you adventure to find magic items and sell them in town or something. I doubt that is the case but I am just saying that it can be interpreted in different ways.

In regards to your comment on no repercussions for DMs ignoring player's wishes, I am not sure what kind of repercussions you expect to be incurred on your DM. Should he be flogged, publicly? Cast out from society and banned from ever playing RPGs again? Frankly if you are not having fun with the game it is your right to leave it, but from your posts in this thread it seems as though you will have a hard time finding a DM who is willing to accommodate you (as in a DM who actually wants to run a solo game where you run a magic shop and nothing else is allowed).

Ultimately I would follow the pretty simple suggestion that has been given multiple times: ask the DM if a reasonable explanation will be given and if the answer is yes, great. If the answer is no just ignore the event or ask to have it ret-conned. If you really want a DM to invest his time running a game for a single person based on a very specific premise (running magic shop) with relatively little leeway for any other sort of activity in the game, I would suggest finding a video game or writing a novel because it will be really hard to get a good experience with this game idea.

MeimuHakurei
2018-07-23, 05:18 AM
I'm pretty sure that plot hooks can be done in a more compelling way than Big Lipped Alligator Moments.

In all honesty, if it was a small random event in the DM's opinion, you're probably best served just exiting out of the campaign because you're going to have random intermissions like that out of nowhere further on.

Finally, what in the nine hells is wrong with you? The player has every right to not desire forced plot hooks. Similar to how WindStruck has no interest in having a highly religious storyline imposed onto their character, not everyone wants to do a tired-out revenge plot because the DM thought it would be fun to kill off the PC's family.

Quertus
2018-07-23, 06:35 AM
Was the GM blatantly in the wrong for having the PC abducted for a week? No, even I, known for "if there's a problem with the game, it's probably the GMs fault" can't go quite that far yet. I can, however, condemn the GM for lacking in some rather important GMing skills.

What the GM did could make prefect sense, given the right mechanics, and the right setup.

The problem is, the GM did nothing to build your trust that they actually have reasons for these unexpected events before pulling a huge wtf on you. Which, while usually a rookie mistake, can, for a high Participationism group, be workable.

The problem is, rather than building your trust, and setting you up for this turn of events, the GM did exactly the opposite. They billed the game as something else entirely. This is the root of the problem.

Curiously, their mislabeling their game is almost exactly like your mishandling your thread by leaving out this crucial bit of information...


You're metagaming. You don't have an explanation for what could've caused the events, so you're dismissing the story because of it. The DM might have an explanation you didn't think of, and it's his good right not to show his hand to you.


You're metagaming - as in, using your own (lack of) knowledge as a player to judge events. You don't have an explanation for what could've caused the events, so you're dismissing the story because of it. The DM might have an explanation you didn't think of, and it's his good right not to show his hand to you.

Yeah, no. The GM has to earn their players' trust, just like Thulsa Doom had to earn his minions' willingness to jump of cliffs for him. This GM seems to have royally failed in that regard.

Further, the Pplayer runs the PC, and the GM is everything else - including the player's interface to everything else. It is their responsibility to make the world relatable, understandable, and, per player agency, interfaceable. When the player's only interaction with the world produces "LoL random", it does not bode well for the possibility of the world making sense.


So if I understand correctly, what we have here is a tour of the Planes and a supernatural event, only to find yourself back the normal and a copy of you has been living your life?

That sounds awesome! Prelude into mystery and adventure!

Will people believe that I am who I am, or believe the copy? Am I the copy? Why did this happen? What did the tour mean? Is it a prelude to things to come?

I'm not seeing how any of this is "going too far." This all sounds pretty cool to me.

It does sound awesome. Under a GM I trusted, or one who had set this up, I'd be right there, agreeing with you. I fear that the OP's GM has taken what could have been awesome, and hamfistedly turned it into a campaign ender.

(Personally, I'm betting on it being the PC in bed, and their soul had an out-of-body experience. This seems the easiest explanation for the information given.)


Sure, but you run your player and the DM runs literally everything else in the world. Apparently part of that is the invasion of the divine body-snatchers. It could be a pretty cool plot hook, it's certainly *some* kind of plot hook. I think you're being a little hasty in rejecting it - this extraordinary thing happened, and you're just saying it's too extraordinary, instead of reacting to it and finding out what's going on.

The problem is that the GM hasn't given them a good toolset. They tried to investigate religion, and *boom*, invasion of the body snatchers! What might happen should they attempt to investigate that? Their brain hops out of their head?

No, the GM needs to have given them some time to learn how cause and effect works in their game before pulling something like this, unless they were certain of extreme levels of Participationism.

Glorthindel
2018-07-23, 06:55 AM
So I guess I'm asking how you would explain that this violates player agency and realism in the game, but if you guys are mostly ok with it, then I dunno, seems like you wouldn't have ideas in that case.

Firstly, this does not, in even the tiniest remotest way violate player agency. Agency is about your ability to make choices about the events presented before you, it gives you no right to dictate what those events consist of. Your ability to act on events is absolutely in no way being restricted. This is why you are getting a lot of push back here, the DM has done nothing wrong with regard to player agency. Strike that protest off the board.

As for realism; well, now you have a point. Gods stepping in and micromanaging the life of a random nobody just because he is a player character can feel tonally jarring to some, since it implies a level of notice and importance that a character shouldn't have outside of a chosen-one plot. This is the real problem, and definitely should be what you talk to your DM about.

Incorrect
2018-07-23, 07:14 AM
To me it seems perfectly clear that the GM wanted to give you an awesome experience in finding religion and choosing a deity.

A non-believer goes to a ceremony, and is introduced to the multiverse by the gods themselves. That is so cool!
When I didn't know the Faerun gods, my GM told me to read a book...

Luckmann
2018-07-23, 07:27 AM
I want to throw my hat in the ring and add to the chorus that the DM did nothing wrong. It might not be the game you thought you signed up for, and that could be an issue, but as far as scenarios go, I'm not really seeing any issue, and in no way does it sound out of place or weird or negate player agency. Saying that it violates player agency or is railroading is flat-out wrong in regarss to how the scenario has been described.

The player's circumstances, body and soul are not invioable, and it is up for the GM to act upon that in an interesting fashion.

In fact, I think the scenario and the ensuing plot hooks sound fun as hell, and I think it's awesome that the DM seems to have run that for your sole benefit, more or less one-on-one. That sounds like a really good and dedicated DM and I really don't see the issue.

Firstly, this does not, in even the tiniest remotest way violate player agency. Agency is about your ability to make choices about the events presented before you, it gives you no right to dictate what those events consist of. Your ability to act on events is absolutely in no way being restricted. This is why you are getting a lot of push back here, the DM has done nothing wrong with regard to player agency. Strike that protest off the board.

As for realism; well, now you have a point. Gods stepping in and micromanaging the life of a random nobody just because he is a player character can feel tonally jarring to some, since it implies a level of notice and importance that a character shouldn't have outside of a chosen-one plot. This is the real problem, and definitely should be what you talk to your DM about.I disagree with there being a point from a "realism" (or rather, verisimilitude) angle. While it is uncommon that deities step in and do things concerning a single individual, it is not unheard of, and in terms of what was described in the OP, this would take basically no effort on part of the deity in question, and deities often run plans centuries in advance.

While unlikely, for all we know, this was the only direct interaction the deity will ever have with the character in question, and it is only setting up a scenario where the grandson of the character becomes a prophet. Or whatever.

More likely, OP and his friends are the chosen ones, and if that's fine in basically any fantasy book, that's fine in an RPG. :P

Edit:

Or maybe it's a mountain of BS.

There's a lot of details you still are assuming, don't understand, or which I have left out. There was basically no communication with gods at all, up until the random magical kidnapping and cloning. Even then, I was only talking to entities somewhat like spirit guides, not the gods themselves.

My character actually learned names of some gods and what they stood there. She ultimately chose a deity (or several) she would try worshiping, in good faith. So it's not like the intro to some epic divine quest. This was basically Theology Class 101. My character had expressed concerns that she didn't really know what was going on, either here or where she came from, and wanted to go back previously. Only after like the third time when she explicitly asked, did it happen.

The DM wanting me to abandon what I'm doing and become some kind of paladin is out of the question. Same thing for a hero in general. The type of game I wanted was explicitly clear. Not focused on killing things at all, really. Basically, the pitch/goal for my character was to run a magic shop.

Even the point of view that it was the gods trying to control my character is quite disturbing. What would trying to spite or defy them do? Any attempt at being contrary, trying to avoid religious gatherings... why bother? It's pretty clear the precedent would mean literally ANY off-the-wall thing could happen for NO reason. Sort of like how Pleh describes it, it felt like things were just going to keep happening, that if she told anyone about it, they would think she was absolutely out of her mind.This whole post just makes the scenario seem even less offensive, truth be told. You had a vision and was told about the gods by a divine servant, in a place where time passes differently than on theprime material. It's not even direct divine intervention. Take two tylenol and go to the herbalist in the morning, you might've had a minor stroke.

Kardwill
2018-07-23, 07:41 AM
That sounds awesome! Prelude into mystery and adventure!

With the biggest mystery being : "Am I the original or the copy, Or are we both the original somehow? And how do I take control of my/his/our life?"
It's the kind of stuff that I would find pretty cool to explore, if it was well introduced. :)

Luckmann
2018-07-23, 07:44 AM
With the biggest mystery being : "Am I the original or the copy, Or are we both the original somehow? And how do I take control of my/his/our life?"
It's the kind of stuff that I would find pretty cool to explore, if it was well introduced. :)I agree. I've been hinting my DM to pull something like this on me since we started the current game. I'm even a Divine Oracle. But still no sudden epiphanies or out-of-body experiences. :(

Pippa the Pixie
2018-07-23, 12:29 PM
The DM wanting me to abandon what I'm doing and become some kind of paladin is out of the question. Same thing for a hero in general. The type of game I wanted was explicitly clear. Not focused on killing things at all, really. Basically, the pitch/goal for my character was to run a magic shop.

So your character was running a magic shop? So did you expect the whole game to be nothing except customers coming in to by stuff? Maybe a shoplifter every so often?



It's pretty clear the precedent would mean literally ANY off-the-wall thing could happen for NO reason. Sort of like how Pleh describes it, it felt like things were just going to keep happening, that if she told anyone about it, they would think she was absolutely out of her mind.

It does not sound that off the wall to me, unless the whole game was just your character selling things in their magic shop and doing nothing else.

Anything can happen in a game for no reason...at lease no reason the player knows, right?

And you were worried about off the wall stuff happening all the time? Like you only wanted one thing to happen and that was people come into your shop? Anything else was off the wall?

And who are you talking about when you told people about it? Friends? Other people in the game? People on the internet?


They billed the game as something else entirely. This is the root of the problem.

Curiously, their mislabeling their game is almost exactly like your mishandling your thread by leaving out this crucial bit of information...

I'm not so sure this all goes on the DM, but the player does seem to have some mislabeling or expectation problems.

Like was the player expecting the whole game to just be something like roll a profession shopkeeper check once a day? And nothing else?



(Personally, I'm betting on it being the PC in bed, and their soul had an out-of-body experience. This seems the easiest explanation for the information given.)

I vote for evil double from the Mirror Universe, did the one in bed have a goatee?




The problem is that the GM hasn't given them a good toolset. They tried to investigate religion, and *boom*, invasion of the body snatchers! What might happen should they attempt to investigate that? Their brain hops out of their head?

No, the GM needs to have given them some time to learn how cause and effect works in their game before pulling something like this, unless they were certain of extreme levels of Participationism.

It does not sound that trippy. The character went to a church, had spirit guide visions of gods, then when home to find a clone in their bed. So no melting walls or popping brains, right?

tensai_oni
2018-07-23, 12:44 PM
Let's not beat around the bush. This isn't about being absent for a week or replaced with a doppelganger. These are just minor trappings of the issue.

The real issue here is that OP has a character with a specific concept, and the DM decided that a part of that concept (being faithless) is Wrong and needs changing, and created a prolonged glorified cutscene all to try to force the player to do just that - but since it was in-character and fits the established cosmology, then apparently OP is supposed to roll with it and treat it as a cool plot hook?

Imagine if you played a game with a character who is a chaotic neutral wizard wearing green pants, and suddenly out of nowhere the character gets teleported into a totally different scenario all handcrafted by the DM to persuade you that wizards/chaotic neutral characters/wearers of green pants are an abomination and if they don't change their ways, they will await a horrible afterlife when they die. Doesn't sound like a cool plothook now, does it?

From my perspective, it's little different than having a paladin in the party and then proceeding to have "paladin must fall" scenarios over and over.

It's definitely a thing that needs to get talked over with the DM. And here's the clincher - OP did bring it over to the DM, and the DM responded by arguments and lecturing.

What else to do? Drop that game like it's hot. Also the DM needs a serious lesson in boundaries and not screwing over players' character concepts.

LordCdrMilitant
2018-07-24, 01:00 PM
That depends. As an in-game event, a quick infomertial from the gods isn't a big deal [remember, if you call now, we'll send you 2, that's 2 for the price of 1, if you call now while supplies last! Terms and conditions may apply.]


However, it could very quickly be crossing the line if, for example, you out of game are also atheist or agnostic and your GM isn't. RPGs are not and should not be a vehicle for evangelism.

Pleh
2018-07-26, 04:40 PM
That depends. As an in-game event, a quick infomertial from the gods isn't a big deal [remember, if you call now, we'll send you 2, that's 2 for the price of 1, if you call now while supplies last! Terms and conditions may apply.]


However, it could very quickly be crossing the line if, for example, you out of game are also atheist or agnostic and your GM isn't. RPGs are not and should not be a vehicle for evangelism.

I had the notion that the OP's complaint was less about the infomertial and more about the doppleganger stealing their identity for a whole week. That can understandably be perceived as a punishment, being forced to miss important events without even the opportunity to resist. Plus who knows how the PC has been represented by the Doppleganger in their absence?

I mean, if we're using the "time works funny here" trope anyway, why take that week out instead of returning the PC to the exact moment they left?

MagneticKitty
2018-07-27, 03:22 PM
Sadly I think this could have been fun if you started to play the Doppler ganger without knowing (the religion thing continuing every night as the doppelganger slept) only to realize that dream you was the real person when you came back. Maybe while you were the doppelganger some things seem off as the other players get hints it's not you. Only to culminate with the choice of staying the doppelganger or playing as you who has to be filled in on events because they missed things when they were away. You continue as whichever lives. Or dm takes over which one you don't want. Anyway.. aside from a cool side plot that could have been (i kinda want to run this now)... i dunno I felt you got good enough advice so far.

Mordaedil
2018-08-06, 04:16 AM
For those confused, "Capitalism ho!" is a reference to a computer game called Recettear, wherein a small girl is landed with a massive debt by her no-good father and she has to work together with her loanshark fairy to pay off the debt in segments or be forced to live the rest of her life in a box in the streets and eat grass to sustain herself. You basically purchase items, selling them to adventurers and random people and hire adventurers to go dungeon diving for you as you collect loot and sell them off, hopefully to the starving adventurers you hire so they can become more powerful.

Knowing this and how this game progresses, OP, couldn't this be an attempt by the DM to introduce religion as a facet to the various avenues of business you need to keep in mind for future business? After all, there are merchant deities out there, so maybe this was a favor by that one to give you an idea on how you can extrapolate your business venture to cater to the various deities or their worshippers out there? Or maybe serve as a warning for the complications such factions can have for you and your shop? Like church tithes and banned wares affecting your business?

It could be that the DM is slightly inspired by MaouYuusha, a series about the hero and evil overlord working together to attempt to bring peace to both worlds of man and monster and how they do business with merchants and manipulate the church via the economy and damage supply lines and so on.

Basically, I think maybe you're maybe selling your DM a little short here.

Lorsa
2018-08-06, 07:29 AM
If the player did not have fun, the DM went too far.

Best you can do is to explain what it is that bothers you, and that this is not the type of campaign you signed up for. Hopefully you can communicate more clearly your respective expectations next time.