Is this Legal?

[Yogibear41]

Is everything in the follow scenario "rules legal"

I am a 7th level cleric, who upon advancing to level 8 takes a level in Nar Demonbinder using my cleric spell casting to qualify, I take Summon Monster IV as one of my known spells for that level. Upon advancing to level 9 the character becomes a fallen cleric who despises all deities, and takes a level of Athar Defiant, trading away all cleric levels becoming an Athar Defiant 8/Demonbinder 1. I should retain my Demonbinder abilities because I still have the ability to cast 4th level arcane spells, and know a summon monster spell.

As my 9th level feat I take one of the many bloodline feats from Dragon Compendium to gain additional spells known: including 1st, 2nd and 3rd level spells that I can use my 4th and 5th level Demonbinder slots to cast.

Upon Reaching level 10 I take a level of Incantatrix using the 3rd level spell I learned from the bloodline feat to qualify for the ability to cast 3rd level spells.


Reason: I need to make a high level Ex-Cleric that doesn't suck, and Ur Priest is Banned.

[Nifft]

Getting into Nar Demonbinder with Cleric magic requires 1.4 shenanigans.

Using Nar Demonbinder to self-qualify while you swap out levels under it requires 3.9 shenanigans.

Allowing Athar to progress Cleric casting after you sell all your levels of Cleric requires 2,418.5 shenanigans.


How tolerant is your DM when it comes to shenanigans?

[Kelb_Panthera]

It's perfectly legal and the bloodline levels are unnecessary. You might get vetoed by a DM that looks askance at things that seem dodgy but there's no rules ground to do so.

Complete Arcane had a section that describes the spell level requirements are to be interpreted; as the caster's capacity to understand and contain the ever increasing complexity of magic. As such, being able to cast 4th level spells qualifies you for requirements demanding any lower level spellcasting ability.

Kudos on the self-qualifying, btw. That's a neat trick.

[Cosi]

Getting into Nar Demonbinder with Cleric magic requires 1.4 shenanigans.

No it doesn't. The description for Nar Demonbinder (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030502a&page=2) literally says "Nar demonbinders are most often clerics, sorcerers, or wizards." The class itself says that getting in via Cleric is not only acceptable, but common.

[Yogibear41]

Allowing Athar to progress Cleric casting after you sell all your levels of Cleric requires 2,418.5 shenanigans.


I'm not doing this. I will have no cleric casting ability at all.


It's perfectly legal and the bloodline levels are unnecessary. You might get vetoed by a DM that looks askance at things that seem dodgy but there's no rules ground to do so.

Complete Arcane had a section that describes the spell level requirements are to be interpreted; as the caster's capacity to understand and contain the ever increasing complexity of magic. As such, being able to cast 4th level spells qualifies you for requirements demanding any lower level spellcasting ability.

Kudos on the self-qualifying, btw. That's a neat trick.

Bloodine feat*, but either way awesome, I wanted to use that feat slot on something else anyway.

[BowStreetRunner]

I'm not sure we're looking at the same class. The Athar prestige class from Dragon 287 doesn't allow you to trade Cleric levels for Athar levels at all. You would become an Ex-Cleric 7/Nar Demonbinder 1/Athar 1. If you kept taking Athar until 3rd level then you would get your divine casting back, but not drawn from your previous deity. However, at 9th level you have effectively 7 levels of Cleric with no casting or other class features from those levels.

[Nifft]

No it doesn't. You're right, I misread. Fixed.


I'm not sure we're looking at the same class. The Athar prestige class from Dragon 287 doesn't allow you to trade Cleric levels for Athar levels at all. You would become an Ex-Cleric 7/Nar Demonbinder 1/Athar 1. If you kept taking Athar until 3rd level then you would get your divine casting back, but not drawn from your previous deity. However, at 9th level you have effectively 7 levels of Cleric with no casting or other class features from those levels. I was assuming the OP wanted to re-train to remove Cleric levels out from under the Nar Demonbinder level.

Maybe OP confused the Paladin -> Blackguard trade-in rules with the Athar somehow?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Athar is a prestige class in Dragon 287, page 45, according to the Dragondex (http://www.aeolia.net/dragondex/articles-subject.html). It was from 2001 whereas 3.5 released in 2003 so some skills will need to be updated, but I'm not seeing a more recent version of that class anywhere.

Its prerequisites include BAB +7, base Will save +3, Kn: Religion 10 ranks, ability to cast divine spells, and a special prerequisite.

This class has nothing saying you can trade in other class levels for it. At Athar 1-2 you're a fallen [divine caster] with no divine spellcasting ability. At Athar 3 you regain your previous divine spellcasting and Athar advances your existing divine spellcasting class.

So your build would need to find BAB somewhere before you can even consider taking Athar, and you'll be without your Cleric spellcasting for two full character levels.

[Ruethgar]

Awakened Advanced Monkey for 5 RHD at ECL 0 can give you a bump in the BaB department. Human Heritage would give lisense to fluff yourself more humanoid.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I didn't know there was an "Athar" in dragon magazine. I thought he was talking about the defiant pestige class in the planar handbook that is associated with the athar organization.

Could the OP clarify please?

[Warchon]

Awakened Advanced Monkey for 5 RHD at ECL 0 can give you a bump in the BaB department. Human Heritage would give lisense to fluff yourself more humanoid.
...even if you're opening yourself up to an avalanche of judgemental looks and mean-spirited jokes by being a monkey whose ancestors messed around with humans.

[Nifft]

Awakened Advanced Monkey for 5 RHD at ECL 0 can give you a bump in the BaB department. Human Heritage would give lisense to fluff yourself more humanoid.

Monkey has LA: --, and the Awaken spell doesn't seem to change that.

[OgresAreCute]

Monkey has LA: --, and the Awaken spell doesn't seem to change that.

One of the old dragon mags gave ECLs for awakened animals, many of them made you end up at ECL < HD.

[Yogibear41]

I didn't know there was an "Athar" in dragon magazine. I thought he was talking about the defiant pestige class in the planar handbook that is associated with the athar organization.

Could the OP clarify please?


I'm talking about the Defiant. Class, no casting at all.

I see I wrote Athar, my bad. I meant Defiant.

[Rebel7284]

I believe it's typically assumed that the prerequisite "Able to cast X level spells" can be satisfied with X or higher spells. So the bloodline feat may not be necessary with some DMs.

edit:
Some more thoughts:
You can do similar things with Sublime Chord. Something like Bard 1/Cleric 9/Sublime Chord 1/Defiant 1
Qualify for arcane casting via Greater Anyspell or, if that doesn't work, Alternate Spell Source feat.
Pros:
- Sublime Chord spell list is amazing (and 9th level spells!)
- Plane Shift from the Cleric levels trade.
Cons:
- Takes longer to get going.
- The extra Bard level makes it look less elegant.

Regardless of build, see if you can use Cloistered Cleric instead of regular one. The only thing you keep from the Cleric trade is the skill points, and Cloistered Cleric gets more of those!

[Yogibear41]

I believe it's typically assumed that the prerequisite "Able to cast X level spells" can be satisfied with X or higher spells. So the bloodline feat may not be necessary with some DMs.

edit:
Some more thoughts:
You can do similar things with Sublime Chord. Something like Bard 1/Cleric 9/Sublime Chord 1/Defiant 1
Qualify for arcane casting via Greater Anyspell or, if that doesn't work, Alternate Spell Source feat.
Pros:
- Sublime Chord spell list is amazing (and 9th level spells!)
- Plane Shift from the Cleric levels trade.
Cons:
- Takes longer to get going.
- The extra Bard level makes it look less elegant.

Regardless of build, see if you can use Cloistered Cleric instead of regular one. The only thing you keep from the Cleric trade is the skill points, and Cloistered Cleric gets more of those!


Already had the Cloistered Cleric plan, although I didn't mention it, but thanks for the other advice.

[BowStreetRunner]

I'm talking about the Defiant. Class, no casting at all.

I see I wrote Athar, my bad. I meant Defiant.It's an easy mistake to make, since the header for the section that includes the Defiant PrC is called The Athar.

Another interesting consideration with the Defiant however is that "clerics who worship a cause or a nonpersonified source of divine magic" don't have to become ex-clerics at all. Such a cleric would retain all of their cleric levels, while the ex-cleric of a specific deity would exchange those levels for Defiant levels, also gaining the abilities rewarded for turning in cleric levels.

[Yogibear41]

"clerics who worship a cause or a nonpersonified source of divine magic"

Don't exist in our campaign. Its a Deity or nothing.

[BowStreetRunner]

Don't exist in our campaign. Its a Deity or nothing.In that case the Athar from Dragon 287 might also be problematic, as those clerics draw power from the Great Unknown. Which is a shame, because that prestige class would eventually give you back all of your cleric casting.

Oh, and as for the original question asked in the post title, the best answer must obviously be: "I will make it legal." - Sheev Palpatine.

[OgresAreCute]

In that case the Athar from Dragon 287 might also be problematic, as those clerics draw power from the Great Unknown. Which is a shame, because that prestige class would eventually give you back all of your cleric casting.

Oh, and as for the original question asked in the post title, the best answer must obviously be: "I will make it legal." - Sheev Palpatine.

I guess you could say that clerics who get power from "the great unknown" are secretly (without their knowledge) getting it from some other deity, maybe a trickster god who thinks giving divine magic to atheists is a hilarious prank.

[liquidformat]

I guess you could say that clerics who get power from "the great unknown" are secretly (without their knowledge) getting it from some other deity, maybe a trickster god who thinks giving divine magic to atheists is a hilarious prank.

its just cthulhu trying to... wait maybe it is Galactus looking for a new surfer?