Dragon fear needs changed.

[Zorrah]

I ran my party against the first full adult dragon fight. Now, the issue here is that they succeeded, but the fight was incredibly boring for the one person that missed the save, and if any more than 1 person missed the save, it would have been boring for 2 people, but also, very likely, a TPK. The frightful presence is a very flavorful and intense aspect of the dragon, that mechanically, turns out to be not noticed by those who made the save, and just makes the fight boring for those who do not. My proposed fix would be that there's no making someone immune for 24 hours for a one little save, but not make it last so long for a missed save. it would be more balanced and interesting, if the savings throw would be required to be made more often (more than just once every 24 hours) and that the one person that missed it isn't down for the long haul. My theory behind this would be by not giving immunity to it, the threat is always there, and it makes it more tense for those that do save, but only make it last one round, so those that don't save have to sit and watch all their friends have fun for one fight. Reasonable change? Thoughts? Anyone else running into this?

Also, in keeping this more entertaining for my players, any early spells, like level 4 or lower, that can counter/remove this effect? The current party regulars are bard, eldritch knight, warlock, druid, and we just got a new player who plays a cleric who I am not sure will be showing up all the time, and the rest are straight martial types.

[DerficusRex]

Frightful presence doesn't mean they can't act if affected and they don't even have to flee. The effect is that they can't willingly move closer to the dragon and they have disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks (but not saving throws!) while the dragon is in line of sight. Also, affected characters can try to save again at the end of each of their turns. It doesn't automatically fear them for a full ten rounds.

As for countering the effect, a bard could use Countercharm at level 6, bards and clerics can both cast Calm Emotions, and if you're within 10 feet of a level 10+ paladin you're immune to fear (Aura of Courage).

edit: you could also mitigate the effect by trying to find a source of advantage to counteract the disadvantage (such as faerie fire). If there's an affected PC with no ranged attacks, I suppose someone could try to physically move them close enough to hit the dragon, but considering you're fighting a flying creature they're already on the back foot if they can't hit it from a distance.

[Rixitichil]

Calm Emotions is a 2nd level Cleric/Bard spell that can be used to suppress the conditions of Charmed or Frightened for a minute.

[JellyPooga]

Calm Emotions is a 2nd level Cleric/Bard spell that can be used to suppress the conditions of Charmed or Frightened for a minute.

Heroism is a 1st level spell. If Dragons are expected, there's really no reason most parties shouldn't be prepped against fear.

[ZorroGames]

Heroism is a 1st level spell. If Dragons are expected, there's really no reason most parties shouldn't be prepped against fear.
Good application of an oft overlooked spell.

[Rixitichil]

Heroism is a good shout, although a bard's limited spells known might mean it isn't an option.
As others have said, a dragon's Frightening Presence gets a save at the end of each round, so hopefully most characters who fail a save will only be stuck out of range for a round or two, (and they can always prepare themselves with spells, items or limited use long range spells or items in that time, especially if they are save based.)

[Foxhound438]

Frightful presence doesn't mean they can't act if affected and they don't even have to flee. The effect is that they can't willingly move closer to the dragon and they have disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks (but not saving throws!) while the dragon is in line of sight. Also, affected characters can try to save again at the end of each of their turns. It doesn't automatically fear them for a full ten rounds.


it really is a hard counter to anything built to be in melee though. Yes, almost everything has a "ranged option", but if I build a barbarian I would be pretty disappointed to have to use that longbow, considering how much less effective it's going to be even without disadvantage.

[mephnick]

I know you're focusing on low level spells, but once you hit the levels where you're fighting real dragons, Heroes' Feast is basically a hard counter to them, especially if your DM likes to use casters allied with dragons like I do.

Immune to Fear and Poison, Advantage on Wis Saves and Temp HP for the entire party for an entire day.

[LordEntrails]

it really is a hard counter to anything built to be in melee though. Yes, almost everything has a "ranged option", but if I build a barbarian I would be pretty disappointed to have to use that longbow, considering how much less effective it's going to be even without disadvantage.
Then prep for it. Or have one of the many solutions to the fear be cast by one of your party members. And besides, as has been pointed out, it doesn't mean your barb is limited to his bow for the rest of the fight. Odds are probably that even without help, in 3-4 rounds he will have made his save and be back in melee. (If the dragon is stupid enough to sit and wait for everyone to base it.)

[MaxWilson]

I ran my party against the first full adult dragon fight. Now, the issue here is that they succeeded, but the fight was incredibly boring for the one person that missed the save, and if any more than 1 person missed the save, it would have been boring for 2 people, but also, very likely, a TPK. The frightful presence is a very flavorful and intense aspect of the dragon, that mechanically, turns out to be not noticed by those who made the save, and just makes the fight boring for those who do not. My proposed fix would be that there's no making someone immune for 24 hours for a one little save, but not make it last so long for a missed save. it would be more balanced and interesting, if the savings throw would be required to be made more often (more than just once every 24 hours) and that the one person that missed it isn't down for the long haul. My theory behind this would be by not giving immunity to it, the threat is always there, and it makes it more tense for those that do save, but only make it last one round, so those that don't save have to sit and watch all their friends have fun for one fight. Reasonable change? Thoughts? Anyone else running into this?

Also, in keeping this more entertaining for my players, any early spells, like level 4 or lower, that can counter/remove this effect? The current party regulars are bard, eldritch knight, warlock, druid, and we just got a new player who plays a cleric who I am not sure will be showing up all the time, and the rest are straight martial types.

I'm confused. How long is "so long"? Are you fully aware that you get to re-save every round? If you failed your save due only to bad luck on the first round, you'll probably pass it next round. If you failed your save because your saves are weak, it will last longer, perhaps until someone casts a Heroism spell or something on you. From what you write it sounds like you were treating the guys who failed their saves as out of the whole fight, which isn't how it works.

As others have said, being frightened doesn't mean you're out of the fight completely anyway. It just means you can't move towards the dragon, and you have disadvantage on your attack rolls and skill checks while you can see it. You can still cast Haste or Healing Word on your buddies, cast Heroism on everybody to eliminate dragon fear, shoot arrows at it (at disadvantage), cast Lightning Bolt at it, cast Earthbind or whatnot at it to bring it to you, threaten opportunity attacks after it attacks you, etc.

Even in the worst case, if everyone in the whole party fails their saves vs. fear and they're all pure melee specialists, you can just run away or Dodge until the fear wears off. (Obviously it helps if you're equipped for running away effectively, e.g. mounted on horses.)

I agree though that it would be better not to become immune for 24 hours on a successful save, not least because "run away until you stop being afraid" is a silly strategy from a narrative standpoint. If anything, running away ought to reinforce your fear, not obviate it for a full day. In general I think 5E is far too generous with the "immune for 24 hours" effects. There would be nothing wrong with reducing it to "automatically passes the next save" or even eliminating the immunity clause entirely.


it really is a hard counter to anything built to be in melee though. Yes, almost everything has a "ranged option", but if I build a barbarian I would be pretty disappointed to have to use that longbow, considering how much less effective it's going to be even without disadvantage.

Even without fear, flight + reach is itself a hard counter to anything built to be in melee.

As a Barbarian, you need to either utilize the DMG Climb Aboard option to leap on top of the dragon's back, or you need a friendly spellcaster to Earthbind the dragon or cast Fly on you.

That, plus the fact that lots of monsters have lots of nasty abilities to use on things that within 30' of them, is why ranged specializations in 5E are generally stronger than melee specializations.


Heroism is a good shout, although a bard's limited spells known might mean it isn't an option.
As others have said, a dragon's Frightening Presence gets a save at the end of each round, so hopefully most characters who fail a save will only be stuck out of range for a round or two, (and they can always prepare themselves with spells, items or limited use long range spells or items in that time, especially if they are save based.)

It's also available to Paladins. Since Paladins are prepared spellcasters, that means all you need is 24 hours notice and you can have it ready, guaranteed, at the end of your next long rest.

[Malifice]

I ran my party against the first full adult dragon fight. Now, the issue here is that they succeeded, but the fight was incredibly boring for the one person that missed the save, and if any more than 1 person missed the save, it would have been boring for 2 people, but also, very likely, a TPK. The frightful presence is a very flavorful and intense aspect of the dragon, that mechanically, turns out to be not noticed by those who made the save, and just makes the fight boring for those who do not. My proposed fix would be that there's no making someone immune for 24 hours for a one little save, but not make it last so long for a missed save. it would be more balanced and interesting, if the savings throw would be required to be made more often (more than just once every 24 hours) and that the one person that missed it isn't down for the long haul. My theory behind this would be by not giving immunity to it, the threat is always there, and it makes it more tense for those that do save, but only make it last one round, so those that don't save have to sit and watch all their friends have fun for one fight. Reasonable change? Thoughts? Anyone else running into this?

Also, in keeping this more entertaining for my players, any early spells, like level 4 or lower, that can counter/remove this effect? The current party regulars are bard, eldritch knight, warlock, druid, and we just got a new player who plays a cleric who I am not sure will be showing up all the time, and the rest are straight martial types.

They get to retry the save each round.

Plus it doesnt paralyze them. They can still act normally, they just cant get closer and make attacks with disadvantage.

Why didnt the PCs that fail the save have bows or spells or some ****?

[OvisCaedo]

It's not insurmountable, and I guess not completely disabling (though it feels dishonest to act like it's not still quite crippling to strength melee fighters), but... It feels sort of fundamentally wrong to me that the answer for how the archetypal reckless barbarians or fearless fighters should deal with dragons being scary is to hope you have a bard or cleric to cast a specific spell for you to make it all better. They can repeat the save each round, but if their chances of succeeding are bad enough, they're still likely to be scared for quite a while, if not the whole duration of a fight.

...But I don't think there's any good answer to it, either. The specific bonuses to fear that fighters might have had in previous editions seem too out of place and "fiddly" for 5e's design philosophy. And there's not any real reason for the fear to be something other than a wisdom save, or for brave fighter-types to be generally good at saving against the huge range of other things the save type represents.

[MeeposFire]

It's not insurmountable, and I guess not completely disabling (though it feels dishonest to act like it's not still quite crippling to strength melee fighters), but... It feels sort of fundamentally wrong to me that the answer for how the archetypal reckless barbarians or fearless fighters should deal with dragons being scary is to hope you have a bard or cleric to cast a specific spell for you to make it all better. They can repeat the save each round, but if their chances of succeeding are bad enough, they're still likely to be scared for quite a while, if not the whole duration of a fight.

...But I don't think there's any good answer to it, either. The specific bonuses to fear that fighters might have had in previous editions seem too out of place and "fiddly" for 5e's design philosophy. And there's not any real reason for the fear to be something other than a wisdom save, or for brave fighter-types to be generally good at saving against the huge range of other things the save type represents.

Bonuses to fear? Fighters did not typically have those in any previous edition that I can think of. Heck in 3e fighters and barbs were both weak against fear effects and needed to get equipment to protect them from that (low will saves). In 4e fighters were generally decent against it (tend to have decent wisdom so fair wil defense) while barbs typically were not. Pre 3e fighters have great saves so they were good against fear then but after that not so much.

[OvisCaedo]

Bonuses to fear? Fighters did not typically have those in any previous edition that I can think of. Heck in 3e fighters and barbs were both weak against fear effects and needed to get equipment to protect them from that (low will saves). In 4e fighters were generally decent against it (tend to have decent wisdom so fair wil defense) while barbs typically were not. Pre 3e fighters have great saves so they were good against fear then but after that not so much.

Yeah, now that you've said that, fighter's bonus against fear might actually have only been a pathfinder thing and not any actual dnd edition. For some reason I had just assumed it was a 3/3.5 carryover. So... my bad.

edit: though the other distinct thing is that as far as I know most fear auras in 3.5/PF (I could ALSO be wrong here) only inflicted the minor "shaken" debuff, so the whole issue was a lot less crippling. Or... or were the several tiers of fear conditions also just a PF thing and not 3.5??

[Tanarii]

Fighters did not typically have those in any previous edition that I can think of.
B/X and BECMI Fighters generally have the best overall saves, especially at higher levels. It was one of their features. OTOH I can't remember how dragon fear worked in those games. Possibly it wasn't a save.

Edit: according to the RC, they didn't have Feat. So not relevant.

Edit2: 1e Dragons caused fear or panic in creatures of less than 6HD. Save was vs magic. Which IIRC low level fighters weren't particularly good at.

[Angelalex242]

For Monks, that's what still mind is for. They lose one action to Dragon Fear, and that's the end of that.

[Malifice]

I've got 10 bucks on the OP ruling it wrong.

Anyone?

[Aett_Thorn]

I've got 10 bucks on the OP ruling it wrong.

Anyone?

Only if I can get odds on that. Right now rhat’s A fool’s bet. 😛

[Kadesh]

All characters have easy access for Bonuses to Fear. Resilient (Wisdom). And fighters have the easiest access to that feat, AND increased resistance to it with access to Indomitable.

Paladins get an Aura for Immunity to Fear, in addition to their Spells which provide Guaranteed protection against it.

All Dragons are lethal: 33% Recharge on a breath weapon likely to do even 20 odd points of damage even on a failed save to 2 or even 3 members of a party, while staying at extreme range. Their Dragon Fear means that they can isolate targets from their allies (if you see someone fail a fear save, get close to them - the Dragon will be coming after you next), which combined with Wing Buffets to slap everyone around is disgustingly effective.

By the time you are facing Dragons that dangerous though, Heroes Feast should be on the table, as should the dedicated need to bring it down. An Ancient Dragon has an AC of 21ish. Even at 20th level, without a bonus to hit, you need to roll average to hit it, none of this 'expect 65% to hit'. Against parties of even lower, expect nearer 60% of attacks to MISS, and that's not inckudi g the disadvtage thrown in by a Dragon attacking by night.

Throw on a reasonable stealth score, excellent perception, and any potential spellcasting (either through an intimidated peon, or the variant), and a party is going to be in pretty serious trouble of they're not prepared, which if they have lived through to theblevels to be engaging Adult or Greater Dragons, should be packing some serious heat in their magic gear, but also in how likely they are to be paranoid.

Even Headlong Charging Barbarian won't appreciate being grapple/flown 200ft up and dropped once his rage has abated, then breath attacked while prone, and possibly wing buffeted further away, isolated and tail slapped. Which is what happened to one of my teammates. We quickly ran from that fight, with the Dragon gloating that it hadn't even had to resort to its spellcasting.

[KorvinStarmast]

I've got 10 bucks on the OP ruling it wrong. Sucker bet. Not biting. Someone needs to RTM. :smallcool:

[Willie the Duck]

Bonuses to fear? Fighters did not typically have those in any previous edition that I can think of. Heck in 3e fighters and barbs were both weak against fear effects and needed to get equipment to protect them from that (low will saves). In 4e fighters were generally decent against it (tend to have decent wisdom so fair wil defense) while barbs typically were not. Pre 3e fighters have great saves so they were good against fear then but after that not so much.

FWIW, fighters originally became immune to fear at level 8 (along with the ability to see invisible opponents, another long forgotten ability) in oD&D. I think even most people who played oD&D might not have realized it, as it was buried in the Chainmail combat rules (and most people ended up using the alternative combat rules instead, judging from the discrepancy in units sold). 1E had the fighters get awesome saves (although the difference is often overblown). Otherwise, you are correct, there has been a real problem with straight, non-paladin fighters ever living up to their described abilities within the rules actually given.


All characters have easy access for Bonuses to Fear. Resilient (Wisdom). And fighters have the easiest access to that feat, AND increased resistance to it with access to Indomitable.

Indomitable seems to clearly be trying to capture this idea, and yes fighters do get extra feats. I've considered giving Champion Fighters the Gloomstalker ranger 'Iron Mind' ability instead of their normal level 7 ribbon (but every time I suggest that Champions need a boost, someone assures me that they only 'feel' weak).



Anyways, dragonsfear is a hard nerf to melee types that has many different ways of being circumvented? Sounds normal. Wind wall effects do that to archery types all the time (and have their own counters). That's pretty much par for the course.

[alchahest]

It seems weird (to me) that barbarians and fighters tend to be the classes most profoundly affected by cowardice , despite being the ones who spend their careers in the face of the most horrible monsters. It's doubly weird that generally a low wisdom can be an expression of brashness and foohardy derring do.

I'm not sure what a fix would be, but the burliest melee guys being the ones most affected by (and usually most likely to BE affected by) how scary something is seems rough.

[MaxWilson]

It's not insurmountable, and I guess not completely disabling (though it feels dishonest to act like it's not still quite crippling to strength melee fighters), but... It feels sort of fundamentally wrong to me that the answer for how the archetypal reckless barbarians or fearless fighters should deal with dragons being scary is to hope you have a bard or cleric to cast a specific spell for you to make it all better. They can repeat the save each round, but if their chances of succeeding are bad enough, they're still likely to be scared for quite a while, if not the whole duration of a fight.

...But I don't think there's any good answer to it, either. The specific bonuses to fear that fighters might have had in previous editions seem too out of place and "fiddly" for 5e's design philosophy. And there's not any real reason for the fear to be something other than a wisdom save, or for brave fighter-types to be generally good at saving against the huge range of other things the save type represents.

The archetypal Berserker Barbarian deals with the fear by ignoring it completely while raging. It's his 6th level ability.

He's still out of luck about the flying thing though unless he can climb aboard.

Bottom line: melee specialization has lots of Achilles heels. Don't bring a knife to a gunfight. 5E is D&D: Gunfight Edition.

[KorvinStarmast]

The archetypal Berserker Barbarian deals with the fear by ignoring it completely while raging. It's his 6th level ability.

He's still out of luck about the flying thing though unless he can climb aboard.

Bottom line: melee specialization has lots of Achilles heels. Don't bring a knife to a gunfight. 5E is D&D: Gunfight Edition.
Agreed. This is where teamwork is important. What are the spell casters investing in to make the team better? (See various skills and spells and class abilities above). If the spell caster is really worried about "how awesome is my PC" there's a problem in this team that will crop up long before they are at a level that can handle an adult dragon.

[UrielAwakened]

Here's a question for people.

Frightful presence is a fear effect that, once you save against it, no longer affects you.

Paladin's aura makes you immune to fear effects.

If the dragon uses it and a PC is in the aura the first time, then leaves the aura, is the PC affected the 2nd time and has to make the save?

[leogobsin]

Here's a question for people.

Frightful presence is a fear effect that, once you save against it, no longer affects you.

Paladin's aura makes you immune to fear effects.

If the dragon uses it and a PC is in the aura the first time, then leaves the aura, is the PC affected the 2nd time and has to make the save?

I would imagine so. Inside the Paladin's aura, you don't make a saving throw at all, so you haven't yet succeeded on a save to become immune.

[Malifice]

Here's a question for people.

Frightful presence is a fear effect that, once you save against it, no longer affects you.

Paladin's aura makes you immune to fear effects.

If the dragon uses it and a PC is in the aura the first time, then leaves the aura, is the PC affected the 2nd time and has to make the save?

Yep. No longer immune, and hasn't yet succeeded in a Saving Throw (because he hasn't made one yet).

[UrielAwakened]

What if they re-enter the aura after failing the effect?

Do they save automatically?

Are they just not "feared" while in the aura?

Does the effect end but they can reacquire it later?

[Kadesh]

Yep. No longer immune, and hasn't yet succeeded in a Saving Throw (because he hasn't made one yet).

I agree; as an example, Saves against Polymorph made by a Shapechanger "automatically succeed" as a case, rather than "Shapechangers are immune to the effects of this spell", or "this doesn't affect Shapechangers".

[Zorrah]

Yeah, I did mess it all up, but I'm still happy I made this thread because now,
1) I can do it right next time.
2) I still needed the list of spells to help my players out, so I'll check that later.

Thank you.

[Kadesh]

Yeah, I did mess it all up, but I'm still happy I made this thread because now,
1) I can do it right next time.
2) I still needed the list of spells to help my players out, so I'll check that later.

Thank you.

No dramas :) it's what forums are for

[MaxWilson]

Yeah, I did mess it all up, but I'm still happy I made this thread because now,
1) I can do it right next time.
2) I still needed the list of spells to help my players out, so I'll check that later.

Thank you.

RE: point #2, use this as an object lesson for your players: the value of doing research beforehand (hiring sages, looking for clues, etc.). It's cheaper to learn from NPCs' prior experience than to TPK gaining your own experience. :-)

RE: point #1, sometimes it helps (and is fun!) to do little one-shots with your players, like, "Let's pretend you guys are fighting a beholder and see what would happen!" They can either roll up new characters for the fight or use their existing PCs. If you want to you can even declare the fight to have been a dream that they actually dreamed, so the PCs can legitimately learn from it, as a way of supplying info for point #2.

[MagneticKitty]

Honestly the wing attack to blow people back is worse. We fly/climb up to fight it at it's level and keep gettiing knocked prone and falling. It makes meleeing a dragon just not work. Too big to grapple, and if you don't all have magic fly speed knocking prone means you fall. Just kinda unfun to fight all around actually. If yoire afraid and dont have spells with saves youre kind of useless as well. And then hitting it with saves dont matter since its stats are so good and it has legendary resistances.

[LordEntrails]

...
All Dragons are lethal: 33% Recharge on a breath weapon likely to do even 20 odd points of damage even on a failed save to 2 or even 3 members of a party, while staying at extreme range....

By the time you are facing Dragons that dangerous though, ...

... and a party is going to be in pretty serious trouble of they're not prepared, which if they have lived through to theblevels to be engaging Adult or Greater Dragons, should be packing some serious heat in their magic gear, but also in how likely they are to be paranoid.

... with the Dragon gloating that it hadn't even had to resort to its spellcasting.

Absolutely! Dragons should be bad ass. Who wants to play some stupid scenario where an ancient dragon is beat by some solo fourth level barbarian? Dragons should be hard to kill. They should be something that if you stumble upon even at high level you better be scared. Going to fight a dragon? You better have pre-pared with every darn things you possible can imagine.

Come on! You going to walk into Smaug's lair and just wing it? Not in my game :)

[Zorrah]

We are running Tyranny of Dragons, and the white was the cap for the first book. I have the second book and am getting ready to start that, so lots more dragons again. I feel really bad about doing that to the player in question, because the only one that missed the savings throw was my wife, who was playing a great weapon fighter, Eldrich Knight, and I ruled the whole thing wrong (apparently, according to this thread, she could have just been throwing magic missiles the whole time, even if she kept missing the save). The thing that does make me feel less bad about it was that I made the vampire fight too easy because they figured out the vampire was there and destroyed the tower with spells in the day time. I feel less bad about making the dragon fight more difficult than it should have been than I do about giving her a bad time, she's been having trouble closing distances and her ranger she was playing for the first half was murdered by Will O'Wisps in the swamp. If anyone says 5e isn't deadly enough, throw a few Will O'Wisps at them.

[MaxWilson]

She's been having trouble closing distances... this isn't a perfect solution, because it doesn't work against flying foes, but tell her to re-read the PHB section on Mounted Combat, and let her buy (or capture) a horse.

[Malifice]

I ruled the whole thing wrong (apparently, according to this thread, she could have just been throwing magic missiles the whole time, even if she kept missing the save).

That should have been apparent straight away:

Frightened


A frightened creature has disadvantage on Ability Checks and Attack rolls while the source of its fear is within line of sight.
The creature can’t willingly move closer to the source of its fear.


It's a pretty common condition mate. You should have looked the condition up in the PHB as soon as a PC failed his save to tell him what the frightened condition does.

To your credit you realize your error now.

Both PCs could have easily attacked with ranged weapons or spells. And no sane person goes up against a flying creature without one or both of those.

[Arkhios]

That should have been apparent straight away:

Frightened


A frightened creature has disadvantage on Ability Checks and Attack rolls while the source of its fear is within line of sight.
The creature can’t willingly move closer to the source of its fear.


It's a pretty common condition mate. You should have looked the condition up in the PHB as soon as a PC failed his save to tell him what the frightened condition does.

To your credit you realize your error now.

Both PCs could have easily attacked with ranged weapons or spells. And no sane person goes up against a flying creature without one or both of those.

To be fair, if one had not read the description for the Frightened condition, it's understandable mistake to rule a frightened person being unable to participate in any way. It's the meaning of that word (again people, every word has a meaning) that can cause a misunderstanding. Normally, a frightened person is probably going to run away from whatever it was that frightened him/her, if possible. Now, I'm aware that the game has its rules that dictate the appropriate effect, and the Player Characters are exceptional in one way or another compared to "us" plebs, and might indeed react differently (and still be able to act in limited fashion).

That said, I can kinda understand why someone might want to change how the dragon fear functions. I would, if I ever wanted to change it, reduce the duration for both a success and failure to 1 minute, and repeat the save after that time.

[Malifice]

To be fair, if one had not read the description for the Frightened condition, it's understandable mistake to rule a frightened person being unable to participate in any way.

If a spell or effect imposes the frightened condition, why wouldnt you look to see what the conditon does?

[Arkhios]

If a spell or effect imposes the frightened condition, why wouldnt you look to see what the conditon does?

Perhaps you're lazy and just assume how it works? I know this happens, from personal experience.

[MaxWilson]

Perhaps you're lazy and just assume how it works? I know this happens, from personal experience.

Also, if you're new to 5E, you may not yet realize that words like "frightened" have a technical definition in 5E, defined in a PHB appendix. This happened to me w/rt Cthulock's Create Thrall ability: when I first read the PHB I thought it was awesome and powerful, because I thought being "charmed" meant, well, like Charm Person used to be. Eager to please you. Getting a free, permanent "charm" on someone with no saving throw sounds awesome, right? Little did I know that in 5E it means very little besides not being attacked...

But at least I knew that "charmed" meant something specific, because of past D&D history. With "frightened" I don't blame a DM for assuming that frightened creatures are required to run away.

So, on this one, I blame the WotC editors more than the DM. They should have followed best practices such as putting keywords like charmed and frightened in bold to make it clear that they have a special meaning. An editor's job is to make the text easy to read correctly; they did not succeed.

[Vingelot]

Absolutely! Dragons should be bad ass.

Otherwise, you could just play a round of Dungeons & Hobgoblins!

[Malifice]

Little did I know that in 5E it means very little besides not being attacked...

Mechanically. But the clear implication is the creature regards you as a friend, an ally, someone they are inclined to trust etc. Which (also mechanically) grants advantage on all social interaction with the creature.

Which should be roleplayed by the DM appropriately.

[Zorrah]

Also, it was actually quite late and knowing there was 1 more encounter before the end of the book, we kind of rushed it, also my fault. Which is why I missed the second half of the sentence where it said "and can save after every round". After seeing how the game was for her, it was clear why they added that caveat.

Also, shared this thread with her and she says she's not going to let me get away with that again.

[furby076]

It feels sort of fundamentally wrong to me that the answer for how the archetypal reckless barbarians or fearless fighters should deal with dragons being scary is to hope you have a bard or cleric to cast a specific spell for you to make it all better.

Remember, dragon fear is magical, not natural. Clearly the fighter and barb, plus the rest of the party, overcame the fear of going to fight a dragon (why adventurers should all have a 6 int and 6 wisdom). THe dragon effect is magical and hence why a fearless fighter or recklous barbarian will still be scared. To counter it: saves or other magical effects

There are so many ways to counter fear in 5e, and its effect (while annoying) is not that deadly, that any party seeking a fight with a dragon and is not prepared then deserves to poop their pants

[MaxWilson]

Mechanically. But the clear implication is the creature regards you as a friend, an ally, someone they are inclined to trust etc. Which (also mechanically) grants advantage on all social interaction with the creature.

Which should be roleplayed by the DM appropriately.

There is no such clear implication. Spells like Charm Person which cause the creature to regard you as a friend and ally, or at least a friendly acquaintance, state this as an additional effect in addition to charm. Other spells like Hypnotic Pattern apparently make creatures relaxed and susceptible to your influence (in addition to incapacitating them) but there is no suggestion at all that they confer the additional effect of Charm Person by controlling how the creature perceives you.

5E Create Thrall is basically just what Wormtongue did to Theoden, not what Mordenkainen did to Bigby. It's fairly weak by the standards of D&D magic, and this was not easy to realize when I first read the PHB. I repeat that WotC's editors could do a much better job of clarifying what is jargon and what is "natural language" so that we don't get one confused with the other, as obviously happened in the OP's dragon fight.

[Malifice]

Remember, dragon fear is magical, not natural.

Source?

I can't recall the word 'magical' listed anywhere in the feature, which needs to be there for it to be considered magical.

[Arkhios]

Remember, dragon fear is magical, not natural.

Source?

I can't recall the word 'magical' listed anywhere in the feature, which needs to be there for it to be considered magical.

Yeah, nothing about the dragons' Frightful Presence indicates that it would be magical ability. To my knowledge, it's always been non-magical. For example, in 3.5 it was only '(Ex)' (=Extraordinary, which in return qualified as non-magical, as opposed to Spell-like ability (duh) and Supernatural (if possible, even more than magical).)

[LordEntrails]

Otherwise, you could just play a round of Dungeons & Hobgoblins!
Nice, but I'm more in the mood for Dwarves & Hobgoblins! Better beer...

[Vingelot]

Remember, dragon fear is magical, not natural. Clearly the fighter and barb, plus the rest of the party, overcame the fear of going to fight a dragon (why adventurers should all have a 6 int and 6 wisdom). THe dragon effect is magical and hence why a fearless fighter or recklous barbarian will still be scared.

Actually it makes perfect sense from a narrative standpoint even if it isn't magical. First of all, anyone should be frightened of a dragon, period. It's a highly intelligent, utterly callous, fire(/acid/cold/lightning/poision)-spewing, flying killing machine. And especially the classes that essentially go "Glork fight! Glork hit enemy with stick!" would be a bit overwhelmed by that, while those that routinely converse with the supernatural would know that they've got quite a fight ahead of them, but would simply think "let's get to it, then".


Nice, but I'm more in the mood for Dwarves & Hobgoblins! Better beer...

Hobgoblin & Happyness, then?

https://www.wychwood.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/hobgoblin-1.png

[Unoriginal]

Great, now I'm imagining a beer-making competition between Dwarves and Hobgoblins. "Here, we get drunk *lawfully*".

On the subject of the dragon's Frightful Presence, it's as magical as their breath or their flight capacity. It works with the background magic of the universe, not with harnessed magic like for spells. Doesn't mean that those who aren't good at resisting fear-inducing effect (like people with low WIS) should be good at resisting the presure of the draconic aura.

Being reckless doesn't necessarily mean you're good at handling being scared, it's just you're not scared by many things. A dragon obviously trumps that.

[Zorrah]

So, now that's cleared up, I do have another question. So, the module is for 4 players, I have 6+ at my table and an artillery character (warlock) with escape magic and other tricks who likes to ping from safety. Would it be too hamfisted to flood a lair with kobolds or something to harass or murder a character that likes to stay in the little side tunnels too small for dragons. I figure it'd be appropriate, to bring it up to challenge for the number of players, make escape slightly more complicated, and to make it scary for those who like to hide in "safety". Would this be an appropriate move outside the lair as well, and how many would be too many?

[LordEntrails]

So, now that's cleared up, I do have another question. So, the module is for 4 players, I have 6+ at my table and an artillery character (warlock) with escape magic and other tricks who likes to ping from safety. Would it be too hamfisted to flood a lair with kobolds or something to harass or murder a character that likes to stay in the little side tunnels too small for dragons. I figure it'd be appropriate, to bring it up to challenge for the number of players, make escape slightly more complicated, and to make it scary for those who like to hide in "safety". Would this be an appropriate move outside the lair as well, and how many would be too many?

I don't see a problem with it. Dragons very well might have a few henchmen, cult followers, or similar. I would avoid too many kobolds, they are like minions and won't really threaten the characters unless you throw lots at them, and then combat becomes cumbersome. You could throw in a wizard henchman, someone working for the dragon in exchange for magic power etc. Possible the same with a rogue.

I think I like the idea most of a male drow sorcerer. With darkness and faeirie fire (or maybe a warlock with devil sight?). Someone who can go in the tunnels, and would be using them anyway to stay out of melee. Ranged support for the dragon, maybe even they make themselves known when they start counter spelling or dispelling the parties magic. Then they become a real threat themselves and someone from the party needs to hunt them down before the dragon kills them.

Gotta remember that idea for my own use...

[Zorrah]

Oh, I do like that. Especially with the story thus far.

So far, it IS the cult of the dragon they are up against, not the dragons themselves, so the cultists are good. And in the story thus far, the cult has aligned themselves with a couple of Red Wizards of Thay, both of which escaped their last encounter and even though Thay at large isn't a part of it, there's nothing to say other Thayans aren't interested in cult.

[MaxWilson]

So, now that's cleared up, I do have another question. So, the module is for 4 players, I have 6+ at my table and an artillery character (warlock) with escape magic and other tricks who likes to ping from safety. Would it be too hamfisted to flood a lair with kobolds or something to harass or murder a character that likes to stay in the little side tunnels too small for dragons. I figure it'd be appropriate, to bring it up to challenge for the number of players, make escape slightly more complicated, and to make it scary for those who like to hide in "safety". Would this be an appropriate move outside the lair as well, and how many would be too many?

If you want to put pressure on the PCs, but don't want to simply overwhelm them with minions, just say something like "2d6 more kobolds arrive every round at random lair entrances." That way they don't have to fight all 99 bazillion kobolds at once.