Names: Tenrin / Sigdi

[Inst]

I'm curious as to the origin of these names. Sigdi is apparently a randomly generated Viking name, but it is apparently also a rare Hindu name, of which I've been unable to locate the etymology. In old Anglo-Saxon, Sigdi means Scythe, but in Old Norse, the stem, Sigis, means victory.

As for Tenrin, I actually find it more interesting as a name, even if Tenrin as a character is far less prominent. It's a Japanese name, mapping with Kanji to Palace Gallant, but it's phonetically similar to the Mongol Temujin (Tem + jin, depending on transliteration, can be changed to Ten + rin), or blacksmith, or the personal name of Genghis Khan. Do we have any further elucidation of the name origins?

[hroþila]

"Sigdi", like "Hilgya", is probably just something that sounds more or less Norse without actually being Norse, as you say. While it is true that sig- means "victory", I doubt the Giant chose that element for its meaning rather than for its appearing in Norse names like "Sigrid". The -di element could be considered analogical with names like "Hildi" or even newer non-Norse ones like "Andi" and "Heidi", where only -i is an actual ending and the d belongs to the stem. Alternatively, it could be some sort of shortening of "Sigdís" (sig- + dís, "woman"), but that wouldn't really be Norse strictly speaking either.

While this is a fun exercise, I don't think it brings us any closer to the actual origin of Sigdi's name, which is likely just "sounds vaguely Norse and that's good enough because the setting isn't actually Norse".

It's interesting that the dwarves seem to have several independent naming traditions, since names like "Minrah" or "Tenrin" are clearly different from those of Norse inspiration. Of course the humans have plenty of different names too, but fantasy races are often not designed that way.

[brian 333]

Many authors have used names to convey meanings to the reader. Heinlein was one rather prominent author who did this. I am certain that The Giant has been exposed to the concept. Whether he used it or not is another question.

Testing the hypothesis would require the examination of more names. Dead characters may speak loudest here because their story is complete, and thus we already know everything they do to affect the story.

[hroþila]

Many authors have used names to convey meanings to the reader. Heinlein was one rather prominent author who did this. I am certain that The Giant has been exposed to the concept. Whether he used it or not is another question.

Testing the hypothesis would require the examination of more names. Dead characters may speak loudest here because their story is complete, and thus we already know everything they do to affect the story.
Everything points towards this not being a thing the Giant does. Of course, with enough characters and enough twisting, coincidences are bound to happen, and we can't completely rule out their being intentional (for example, Celia might be analyzed as "pertaining to the sky/heaven", which would be fitting for a sort of air elemental), but if you look at the overall picture I think it's pretty clear the names are chosen for their sound, not their meaning. In the case of Hinjo, we were explicitly told this was the case, but it almost definitely also applies to Shojo, unless "young girl" is actually meant.

Many names are purely fantastical and impossible to analyze convincingly (Belkar, Thog, Durkon, Bozzok*, Hilgya, Jirix, etc). Others are real names in our world, but really tell us nothing about the characters: "spirit-child shrine-cape" (Miko Miyazaki), "water lily" (Lien), "moon-child" (Tsukiko), "pure gold" (Soon Kim; one of the many possible readings, at any rate), "hay clearing" (Haley), "oak" (Elan**), "red"/"king" (Roy)... They're random. Sure, you could say "Aha! Roy is the leader, i. e. the 'king' of his party!" or whatever, but... yeah, don't do that.

*Bozzok always made me think of "bozo", and perhaps that was even intentional, but the pronunciation is too different for that hypothesis to stand, which shows how random this can be and how you'll probably find something if you dig deep enough, even if there's really nothing there.
**Assuming it is actually a variant of Hebrew אלון, but even that might not be the case and Elan might simply be a fantasy name here.

[Inst]

Elan is actually an English word, derived from French, that refers to energy, style, or enthusiasm. It's fitting for the character in that Elan is elan with little substance.

The first thing that comes to mind with Haley is Haley's comet, which fits her red hair.

Roy -> Roi -> King.

Xykon -> Psycho, Zyklon B

Shojo; remember that Japanese has many homophones, and the standard transcription of 少女　is Shoujo / Sho-jo (with macron). 書状 (shojou) maps to letter, at least according to Google Translate, which parallels how Shojo seems to stick to the letter of the law.

Regarding OOTS, I don't think Rich Burlew pays too much attention to names; they aren't determinative, but they do comprise a fun parlor game to try to derive the etymology and see how they fit with the character. Most likely, if Rich chose a name, he probably drafted a few from his subconscious and selected, without excessive rigor, the name that fit best.

[Inst]

Hilgya -> break it up. Gya denotes female in Norse, while Hild, but not Hil, maps to battle. It also recalls Hildegard of Bingen, the Medieval composer, writer, and nun.

What I can't figure out here is Jirix; the ix ending implies that the name is Latin, think Imperatrix, Dominatrix, etc. Jirix doesn't show up in any search, however, so I haven't figured out what Jir is supposed to mean.

That said, given the martial and disciplined quality of the Hobgoblins relative to the Goblins, Jirix having a Latin-sounding name is fitting.

Returning to Tenrin, Tengri is the Mongolian term for Sky Father. There's a slight phonetic similarity, but as a Chinese speaker, Tenrin reminds me slightly of Tenren tea, a Taiwanese tea manufacturer. The characters involved actually map to Heaven, Benevolence / Love / Agape.

What you do have to remember, ultimately, is that all of this is just a parlor game and not something you should take too seriously. It's fun digging out connotations and reflections of characters' names, but they're not necessarily ones Rich Burlew thought up of. Some of them can be pretty tortured, like trying to map Shojo to Shojou / Letter.

Likewise, put this another way. Most works of art, whether popular or "fine", end up getting processed into some kind of academic paper for analysis if they have any cultural impact. But I have never seen a paper that is literally based on a naming scheme, because they're trivial and unlikely to be considered for peer review. If they are, the field of criticism is probably degenerate in descending to such trivial considerations.

===

I think I have something for Jirix, even if I can't pick out the correct Latin. J, apparently, is interchangeable with L in medieval latin. Jirix then becomes Lirix; i.e, Lir from B5 (a show that I detest, mind you), as well as, well, lyrics, lyricist, which fits as he produces the words to Redcloak's tune.

There's also, well, the literal English. Jir -> Jeer. Jirix -> Jeerer. He's jeering inside at Redcloak and Xykon, of course.

[hroþila]

Elan is actually an English word, derived from French, that refers to energy, style, or enthusiasm. It's fitting for the character in that Elan is elan with little substance.
There is indeed an English word elan, but that is not the same as Elan's name: according to this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=5979933&postcount=5), the source of which has admittedly not been preserved*, the name Elan is pronounced /ˈiːlən/, while the English word is pronounced /eɪˈlɑːn/. That makes it the same as the real-world Elan, as born by eg. Elan Atias, a variant of Elon.

*But check some posts below for forumers reporting on the Giant's pronunciation of Elan in an interview that is also lost. Damn you, internet. So much for the permanence of data.

As for the rest, well, you are proving my point, really. If you dig deep enough and are willing to twist things enough, you'll always find something that wasn't there in the first place. I'll note that Halley's Comet is whiter than red, and that I've never heard of L and J being interchangeable in medieval Latin - if only because J was just an orthographic variant of I at the time. Jirix sounds completely un-Latin to me. If I were to associate it with anything, it would be with faux Gaulish names in -rix found in Astérix.

[Inst]

Declaring the names chosen purely arbitrary is a bit of a stretch in itself. I don't pretend to know what Rich was planning, and in fact, as I'm a "death of the author" type of guy I don't think it matters. The connotations, and how the readers view the names, are interesting in themselves.

Regarding Elan, try this:

https://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&ei=w59VW6SPM4Sc5gLxk6KwDQ&q=elan+in+french&oq=elan+in+french&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0j0i22i30k1l9.5657.6595.0.6828.10.10.0.0.0.0 .146.920.8j2.10.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.10.919...38j0i67k1j0i10k1.0._4XQtCtDcUw

[Elanasaurus]

Well, at least the meanings of Greyview, Redcloak and Right-eye are obvious.Okay, so those aren't the goblins' birth names.
:elan:

[Morty]

I'm fairly certain the names of the Azurite characters were lifted from various Asian languages, none of which the Giant speaks. The names of the original cast were made when they had one-note personalities appropriate for the gag-a-day strip the comic was back then.

[Synesthesy]

What I can't figure out here is Jirix; the ix ending implies that the name is Latin, think Imperatrix, Dominatrix, etc. Jirix doesn't show up in any search, however, so I haven't figured out what Jir is supposed to mean.

That said, given the martial and disciplined quality of the Hobgoblins relative to the Goblins, Jirix having a Latin-sounding name is fitting.


===

I think I have something for Jirix, even if I can't pick out the correct Latin. J, apparently, is interchangeable with L in medieval latin. Jirix then becomes Lirix; i.e, Lir from B5 (a show that I detest, mind you), as well as, well, lyrics, lyricist, which fits as he produces the words to Redcloak's tune.

There's also, well, the literal English. Jir -> Jeer. Jirix -> Jeerer. He's jeering inside at Redcloak and Xykon, of course.

Just to say, -ix ending is female in latin. Imperatrix is empress, dominatrix is mistress, etc.

I see Jirix like a celtic name instead, like Asterix and Obelix. I find it fitting to a barbaric tribe like goblins' was.

[Peelee]

Declaring the names chosen purely arbitrary is a bit of a stretch in itself.
Because...?

[Yanisa]

Shojo; remember that Japanese has many homophones, and the standard transcription of 少女　is Shoujo / Sho-jo (with macron). 書状 (shojou) maps to letter, at least according to Google Translate, which parallels how Shojo seems to stick to the letter of the law.

Interesting that it (can) fits, but the Giant already stated he cribbed the name from "Legend of the Five Rings", so the meaning is purely coincidental.

Here's the link, together with some other Azurites names (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?275301-Azurite-names&p=14870801#post14870801).

[hroþila]

Regarding Elan, try this:

https://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&ei=w59VW6SPM4Sc5gLxk6KwDQ&q=elan+in+french&oq=elan+in+french&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0j0i22i30k1l9.5657.6595.0.6828.10.10.0.0.0.0 .146.920.8j2.10.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.10.919...38j0i67k1j0i10k1.0._4XQtCtDcUw
I know, hence why I noted the different pronunciation of that word (as borrowed into English) compared to the pronunciation of Elan's name:

élan (Fr): /eˈlɑ̃/
elan/élan (En): /eɪˈlɑːn/
Elan: /ˈiːlən/

They're not the same - they couldn't be more different, in fact. Elan's name is either the real-world name of Hebrew origin or simply a fantasy name. In either case, it is 100% unmotivated and arbitrary.

As I said, I agree that thinking up possible interpretations is fun, but only as long as everybody understands that's all it is.

[Fyraltari]

Regarding Elan, try this:

https://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&ei=w59VW6SPM4Sc5gLxk6KwDQ&q=elan+in+french&oq=elan+in+french&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0j0i22i30k1l9.5657.6595.0.6828.10.10.0.0.0.0 .146.920.8j2.10.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.10.919...38j0i67k1j0i10k1.0._4XQtCtDcUw
I would rather see it as this (https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b&ei=RwVWW_aDD8GDsAee6LagBw&q=traduction+moose&oq=traduction+moose&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0j0i22i30k1l2j0i22i10i30k1j0i22i30k1l6.9191. 10335.0.10578.6.6.0.0.0.0.100.518.5j1.6.0....0...1 c.1.64.psy-ab..0.6.513...0i131k1j0i20i263k1.0._9KJ209eBqY), and, I like to think, so would Elan just for the sheer randomness.

Just to say, -ix ending is female in latin. Imperatrix is empress, dominatrix is mistress, etc.
Names ending in "ix" are quite rare in latin, "imperatrix" for example probably is a recent construct (a "female military commander", in ancient Rome?). If you want a femimine latin name "-a" is the way to go.


I see Jirix like a celtic name instead, like Asterix and Obelix. I find it fitting to a barbaric tribe like goblins' was.
"barbaric" only ever meant "a culture that isn't my own and that I don't like", also Astérix and Obélix are puns, not real names. There were real Gauls with names ending in "ix" (like the reason for this joke Vercingétorix) but it wabsolutely wasn't ubiquitous.

[brian 333]

I know, hence why I noted the different pronunciation of that word (as borrowed into English) compared to the pronunciation of Elan's name:

élan (Fr): /eˈlɑ̃/
elan/élan (En): /eɪˈlɑːn/
Elan: /ˈiːlən/

They're not the same - they couldn't be more different, in fact. Elan's name is either the real-world name of Hebrew origin or simply a fantasy name. In either case, it is 100% unmotivated and arbitrary.

As I said, I agree that thinking up possible interpretations is fun, but only as long as everybody understands that's all it is.

And of course The Giant, a professional writer with a lifetime of experience in his craft/profession, has never been exposed to the idea of naming with intent to add layers of characterization to his characters. It's not like this has any historical precedent or anything.

Only Mr. Burlew knows if there is meaning to the names he gives his characters. It's not his style Monster in the Darkness to introduce minigames into his epic story for readers to play and discuss.

And from a logical perspective, a negative proof is not proof of a negative.

[Peelee]

"barbaric" only ever meant "a culture that isn't my own and that I don't like", also Astérix and Obélix are puns, not real names. There were real Gauls with names ending in "ix" (like the reason for this joke Vercingétorix) but it wabsolutely wasn't ubiquitous.


Vercingetorix derives from the Gaulish ver- ("over, superior" – an etymological cognate of German über, Latin super, or Greek hyper), cingeto- ("warrior", related to roots meaning "tread, step, walk", so possibly "infantry"), and rix ("king") (cf. Latin rex), thus literally either "great warrior king" or "king of great warriors". In his Life of Caesar, Plutarchrenders the name as Vergentorix.

What can I say, I like Vercingetorix. France has a pretty awesome military heritage.

And of course The Giant, a professional writer with a lifetime of experience in his craft/profession, has never been exposed to the idea of naming with intent to add layers of characterization to his characters. It's not like this has any historical precedent or anything.

Only Mr. Burlew knows if there is meaning to the names he gives his characters. It's not his style Monster in the Darkness to introduce minigames into his epic story for readers to play and discuss.

Yes, let us also discuss the hidden meanings of the Wooden Forest, Cliffport, Greysky City, Sunken Valley, the Great Barren Desert, etc. etc. Layers like an onion, I tells ya!

[Fyraltari]

What can I say, I like Vercingetorix. France has a pretty awesome military heritage.
Related. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2Ovjosefdo) (In French but has English subtitles).
Yeah Vercingétorix was pretty badass. That is the only reason we learn about him and it as absolutely nothing to do with Third Republic revanchiste propaganda or any attempt to de-christianize our history, not at all.


Yes, let us also discuss the hidden meanings of the Wooden Forest

Something the Dwarves do at length, I am sure.

[Peelee]

Something the Dwarves do at length, I am sure.

They lull you into a false sense of security by pretending to be in the woods, then BAM! The ent mountain city of Nottinstory invade!

[hroþila]

And of course The Giant, a professional writer with a lifetime of experience in his craft/profession, has never been exposed to the idea of naming with intent to add layers of characterization to his characters. It's not like this has any historical precedent or anything.

Only Mr. Burlew knows if there is meaning to the names he gives his characters. It's not his style Monster in the Darkness to introduce minigames into his epic story for readers to play and discuss.

And from a logical perspective, a negative proof is not proof of a negative.
It's certainly a tool the Giant would be aware of, but he doesn't seem to be using it. As a professional writer, he has plenty other tools at his disposal so he doesn't need this one in particular, and that's fine. Point me to two or three non-transparent names that have a plausible yet relevant hidden meaning, if you like, and maybe I'll reconsider.

I'm not saying I have proof. In fact, if you re-read my posts, you'll note I've been pretty careful with qualifications, for the most part. It's just the most probable conclusion in light of the meaning of the names we can analyze and what I know of the Giant's general style when it comes to this sort of thing.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Names ending in "ix" are quite rare in latin, "imperatrix" for example probably is a recent construct (a "female military commander", in ancient Rome?). If you want a femimine latin name "-a" is the way to go.

Imperator was one (of many, but an important one) title of the Emperors (in fact, that's were the word Emperor comes from). They had wives, which may have been referred to as Imperatrix. But don't quote me on that last bit - I don't have the time to do the research.

GW

[Peelee]

They had wives, which may have been referred to as Imperatrix.

My work here is done.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

My work here is done.

Some people just want to watch the world burn.
Peelee thinks them a bunch of amateurs
GW

[Fyraltari]

Imperator was one (of many, but an important one) title of the Emperors (in fact, that's were the word Emperor comes from). They had wives, which may have been referred to as Imperatrix. But don't quote me on that last bit - I don't have the time to do the research.

GW

I don't think wives of Emperors were called "imperatrix" as in empress (it's an honorific not a title, that would be like callig someone "doctor" because their spouse has a phd) however it does appear in some dictionnary withthe general meaning of "lady in charge". I still maintain that if the giant wanted a roman-like name he would have used a "-us" or "-a" name like Vaarsuvius.

[martianmister]

Roman empresses are called Augusta, Imperator is just title meaning commander-in-chief.

[Fyraltari]

Roman empresses are called Augusta, Imperator is just title meaning commander-in-chief.

Emperors only started calling themselves Augusti with Constantine the Great after the end of the "military anarchy period" (third century) before that the official line was that there were no emperors and Rome was a democracy.

Imperator doesn'y mean "commander in chief" as much than "celebrated commander" it wasn't a rank just an acknowledgment of someonés prowess by the state.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

During the Republic, imperator was just the name given to the individual that held imperium (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperium) (i.e. command) over an army. It was not a rank, and it was not an honorary title (until the roman emperors turned it into one by having every one of them given the title as part of the trappings of imperial power). As I understand it, it is literally "guy that holds imperium", and the important bit was the imperium itself, which was granted or removed by the Senate. Different individuals would be given different amounts of imperium to do the senate's bidding, and some guy may be imperator (i.e. have imperium) over Hispania Proxima while another might have it over Africa (the province, not the continent, obviously).

I've had a bit more time to do some research. I went straight to the most important empress (Theodora (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodora_(6th_century))), and I came across an empress regent (Martina (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martina_(empress))), but I can't find either of them being refered to as Imperatrix. Although according to the wiki, "Martina was to be honoured as empress", so if anyone has any knowledge of Eastern Roman Empire history and wants to clarify about her, I'd love to hear about it.

(In the republic and at least early empire, wives were more celebrated for being good mothers and paragons of femalehood than as wives per se, so I would not expect them to have titles at all. "Efficient, but neither seen nor heard" was best, as I understand it)

Grey Wolf

[Inst]

I just noticed this. Durkon -> Durkon Allotrope Thundershield.

The naming here is great, because Allotrope refers to two different things. First, Allotrope refers to forms of a chemical element, such as graphite and diamond for carbon, differing by their chemical bonds. It's a very dwarf-like name given its geological nature.

Second, well, Durkon's been vamped. Durkula, or at least he pretends to be, is technically an allotrope of Durkon, possessing all his memories but structuring them differently and for different goals.

[martianmister]

As I said before, Roman empresses (as wives of emperors) were called "Augusta." Imperatrix is a possible feminine form of imperator, but it's a title that impossible to exist since ancient romans never allow a female to have such a power that equal to imperator.


Emperors only started calling themselves Augusti with Constantine the Great after the end of the "military anarchy period" (third century) before that the official line was that there were no emperors and Rome was a democracy.

This is wrong on so many levels. :roy:


Imperator doesn'y mean "commander in chief" as much than "celebrated commander" it wasn't a rank just an acknowledgment of someonés prowess by the state.

It was a title, in imperial rome. It was a title used by emperors to show that they're "commanders-in-chief" of the army. In republican era it is used to mean simply "commander" and also was a honorific used by victorious generals.

[Fyraltari]

As I said before, Roman empresses (as wives of emperors) were called "Augusta." Imperatrix is a possible feminine form of imperator, but it's a title that impossible to exist since ancient romans never allow a female to have such a power that equal to imperator.



This is wrong on so many levels. :roy:
Let me clarify.
Until the beginning of the Dominate (with Diocletian rather than Constantine, sorry for that brainfart), the various "emperors" claimed that Rome was still a Republic (as we understand the term) where the people had some degree of influence over what was going on rather than a monarch. The official position was that the "emperor" was in fact in charge of everything because they were so hyper-duper awesome that they were always chosen to hold all offices at once by purely legal mean, yes yes. All the titles of Augustus and Imperator and pontifex maximus and so on were all just either the names of those offices or honorifics which is why I don't think being married to the guy would have given them the right to use a feminie version of those.

During the Dominate when the Emperor was deified while still alive as the son of Jupiter and the incarnation of the spirit of Rome and all that? Sure, probably.

I know awits someone more knowledgeable than I am to inevitably prove me wrong.



It was a title, in imperial rome. It was a title used by emperors to show that they're "commanders-in-chief" of the army. In republican era it is used to mean simply "commander" and also was a honorific used by victorious generals.[/QUOTE]

[martianmister]

So, you admit to be wrong? It's kinda hard to understand.

[brian 333]

I just noticed this. Durkon -> Durkon Allotrope Thundershield.

The naming here is great, because Allotrope refers to two different things. First, Allotrope refers to forms of a chemical element, such as graphite and diamond for carbon, differing by their chemical bonds. It's a very dwarf-like name given its geological nature.

Second, well, Durkon's been vamped. Durkula, or at least he pretends to be, is technically an allotrope of Durkon, possessing all his memories but structuring them differently and for different goals.

It appears that at least one name is something more than a cool-sounding tag hung on the character! Are there others?

[Sir_Norbert]

This guy, for one. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucius_Tarquinius_Superbus)

[Sinewmire]

This guy, for one. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucius_Tarquinius_Superbus)

Presumably a Superbus is better than a Succubus? Sorry, sorry, I'll go.

[brian 333]

Presumably a Superbus is better than a Succubus? Sorry, sorry, I'll go.

This one has read too many Harry Potter novels.

But it was kinda funny.

[Inst]

Well, I mean, Tarquin's story is that his son r-ed Lucretia, who killed herself afterwards as an emblem of Roman chastity. The revolt that ensued established the first Roman Republic.

The funny thing is, Tarquin has two sons. You can imagine Nale... you know who and what, and Elan being completely aghast at it. The name shouldn't be stretched to far, of course.

OOTS Tarquin's downfall, anyways, was also a matter of Nale. By killing Malack, Tarquin no longer had Malack, the Vector Legion's Durkon analogue, to rein him in, as well as Malack's totally-imba vampire powers. If Malack were on field during the battle, instead of being dusted, I don't think the OOTS would have been able to resist the Vector Legion. And like the historical Tarquinius, Tarquin's rule was deposed by a popular revolt.

Back to Sigdi, though, Sigdi brings to mind Sieglinde from Wagner's The Ring. Sieglinde got Westermarcked (if you are sensitive, do not look it up) and gave birth to a great, but tragic hero. Siegfried, for that matter, is much different than Durkon, but Siegfried only achieved his destined role in death (i.e, Brunnhilde turning Valhalla into their funeral pyre). There is an odd symmetry with Durkon, in this regard, as well as Hilgya (Battle Girl) matching Brunnhilde.

[skim172]

"Sigdi" is a corruption of "Signature D" - a reference to her signature snowboard half-pipe move that made her the most famous snowboarder in all of the Northern Continent. "Thundershield" is in fact an honorific (like Sir or Doctor), bestowed upon her in order to signify that this dwarf has moves so sick that Thor himself must clap in celestial applause. ("Shield" is cool dwarf slang for "snowboard" - but only the cool dwarves know that).


"Tenrin" is a corruption of "Ten Rings" - because the dude always wore ten rings. All the time. It was a compulsion.

He used be called "Nynerin" - but when he proposed, he changed his name in a beautiful romantic gesture that won the heart of the coolest dwarf in all the land.

[Peelee]

"Sigdi" is a corruption of "Signature D" - a reference to her signature snowboard half-pipe move that made her the most famous snowboarder in all of the Northern Continent.

I retract what I said and throw my full support behind this.