A question about the balance of modifying the binder class

[JoshuaZ]

The binder is a really fun and flavorful class. It is however, on the weak end of magic classes. In the standard tier system it is considered Tier 3, with it being Tier 2 when vestiges that aren't from Tome of Magic are considered (in particular when Zceryll is considered). However, at very low levels, binders are very weak, and generally have serious issues with not having enough vestiges. Even at high levels, the maximum number of vestiges is very inconvenient. How unbalanced would a binder be if the number of additional vestiges they can bind increased also at 3rd level? My guess is that this would still be relatively balanced and also wouldn't substantially impact the tiers (with or without Zceryll). Is this accurate? Are there any special new tricks a level 20 binder can do if they have one extra vestige?

[Dr_Dinosaur]

That would be a crazy power spike imo.

As an aside, T3 is generally considered the sweet spot for balance anyway, and jumping to T2 with access to the supplements means they’re on the high end of that balance.

[Psyren]

Have you looked at the Pactmaker (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/pactmaker) conversion of the class for Pathfinder? You could simply run that with the 3.5 vestiges and it would be a much better class, due to the 4+Int skills, all face skills in-class, and getting the second vestige slot at 4th level. You can just ignore all the constellation stuff, or better yet, use the Unbound Pactmaker (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/unbound-pactmaker) ACF to replace it all with more standard abilities like scent.

If you decide to give the PF vestiges a try though, you can find them here. (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/pact-magic)

[JoshuaZ]

Have you looked at the Pactmaker (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/pactmaker) conversion of the class for Pathfinder? You could simply run that with the 3.5 vestiges and it would be a much better class, due to the 4+Int skills, all face skills in-class, and getting the second vestige slot at 4th level. You can just ignore all the constellation stuff, or better yet, use the Unbound Pactmaker (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/unbound-pactmaker) ACF to replace it all with more standard abilities like scent.

If you decide to give the PF vestiges a try though, you can find them here. (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/pact-magic)

That's an interesting suggestion, and I'll thinkt about that. One of the things that worries me is whether the constellation rules exist just for flavor or to prevent certain OP combos. Is there any balance issue with getting rid of the constellation rules?

[Psyren]

That's an interesting suggestion, and I'll thinkt about that. One of the things that worries me is whether the constellation rules exist just for flavor or to prevent certain OP combos. Is there any balance issue with getting rid of the constellation rules?

They serve as a limiter, but not on Binders/Pactmakers - as the generalist/expert binding class, they're skilled enough to not worry about restrictions on combining vestiges like those. Rather, it's used as a limiter for other classes that have binder-flavored archetypes. For example, the Empyrean Friar (monk binder) has to pick a constellation and they'll only get access to those vestiges. Pactmakers can bind from any constellation they want, generally.

The other purpose they serve is granting some minor abilities to the Binder that basically work like cantrips. Taking them out will remove those, but since 3.5 Binders don't get those either you'd be fine.

[JoshuaZ]

They serve as a limiter, but not on Binders/Pactmakers - as the generalist/expert binding class, they're skilled enough to not worry about restrictions on combining vestiges like those. Rather, it's used as a limiter for other classes that have binder-flavored archetypes. For example, the Empyrean Friar (monk binder) has to pick a constellation and they'll only get access to those vestiges. Pactmakers can bind from any constellation they want, generally.

The other purpose they serve is granting some minor abilities to the Binder that basically work like cantrips. Taking them out will remove those, but since 3.5 Binders don't get those either you'd be fine.

Ah, that's very good to know then. Thanks. This doesn't directly answer the original question but functionally renders it moot.

[Psyren]

Well to answer your question - yes, an extra vestige would probably open up all kinds of tricks. The Pactmaker sidesteps this by letting vestige #4 come much earlier (16 instead of 20) and giving a new capstone instead (Occult Mastery) that could easily be applied to the 3.5 Binder. You could replace that with a 5th vestige slot instead, but figuring out all the repercussions of that would be tricky.

[Fizban]

My post on the matter from the last binder thread (regarding options for a 6th level binder):

Moving up the multi-vestige binding is the first and biggest thing, it should show up at 6th like the major breakpoint of basically everything else in the game. 6/12/18 is far more appropriate, and then make up some capstone or let them pick a special 9th level vestige at 20th instead of making slow progressions that assume you'll hit 20 exactly.

I think part of the reason they delayed it is because they didn't put any cap on what you can bind: as soon as you get double, you have double at max level. If they were stronger that'd be more merited and a limit of no more than one at max level would be appropriate, but they're weak. The exception is the so-good-it's-not-optional Improved Binding feat, so put the limit on that and say you can only bind one vestige over your normal level, boom done.

After that, Pact Augmentation has the most promise. A whole menu of swappable bonuses tied to class level? It's like you decided to write two different versions of the same ability, except this one sucks even worse. The thing is, a 5th level Binder's 2 pact augmentations aren't nothing: +10 hp is equivalent to improving your HD to d12s and resist energy 10 seriously blunts energy dependent foes, +2 AC isn't nothing, +1 attack isn't nothing, etc, but that's about it. A bunch of not nothing, but not good enough.

What say we just double everything?

Now that's bonuses that an optimizer might respect. +20hp is much more beastly, resist 20 lets you laugh off Fireballs without needing to save (or save through max die fireballs) or 10/10 lets you hit half the spectrum, +4 AC is a whole tier of defense, same for +4 attack, or +4 damage per hit, +4 all saves, DR 4/-, or if you just really want to go first then +8 initiative. If you're gonna make half the binder's features lame static bonuses, they need to be big enough to not be lame. With Pact Augmentation even more strongly tied to class level (no PrC cheesing), 3/4 BAB, no wide area bonus feats or spellcasting, yeah this ability can just be more powerful. It still won't give you a niche when the two accepted niches are "kill everything" and "magic everything," but it's better numbers you can move around if your gear or available buffs change. At higher levels the ability to stack them all onto the same thing for +6-8 actually does give you a thing no one else has: flat attack/damage/AC/save/resistance numbers way higher than other classes get, because those classes have higher BAB or base saves or stronger abilities

Just giving an extra at 3rd is fine, if your game is of a power level where that is actually necessary. One of the main points of Binder and every other class in Tome of Magic is that they're not super powerful, it's very clearly a book of nerfed and restricted fluffy alternate "magics" that aren't supposed to "compete" with spellcasters at all. The fact is, you can through the first several levels of the game on nothing but raw hit dice on half the party if you need to, and the whole point of 3/4 d8 classes is that they can back up their abilities with normal attacks. But especially if you're using vestiges from other sources (which are pretty well universally more powerful than the originals), just adding more is usually not the right move for anything.

[Yogibear41]

How exactly are you playing your binder? The time's I've played them at lower levels, I played them as a fighter type with magic, something akin to a low level cleric that favors melee combat, and I did fine. If you are making your vestiges your primary offensive ability at low levels that is probably why you think they are weak.

Step 1: Play High Strength character Step 2:pick up morning-star and smash Step 3: profit.

Also the Epic level vestiges are insane if you have ever seen those in the web enhancement.


If you absolutely want to eschew melee focused combat, then start binding savnok at low levels, pick up a shield, and just try and survive with your uber AC until you can get to the "blasty" vestiges at a higher level.

[Nifft]

The binder is a really fun and flavorful class. It is however, on the weak end of magic classes. In the standard tier system it is considered Tier 3, with it being Tier 2 when vestiges that aren't from Tome of Magic are considered (in particular when Zceryll is considered). However, at very low levels, binders are very weak, and generally have serious issues with not having enough vestiges. Even at high levels, the maximum number of vestiges is very inconvenient. Yeah.

Note that Zceryll is kinda unfinished, and you need to write the specific rules for how the summons work: how long do they last, can you spam one every 5 rounds or does having a summoned monster around count as "using this ability"? Etc.

You also need to know what subset of the summon monster list is available in your campaign.


How unbalanced would a binder be if the number of additional vestiges they can bind increased also at 3rd level? My guess is that this would still be relatively balanced and also wouldn't substantially impact the tiers (with or without Zceryll). Is this accurate? Are there any special new tricks a level 20 binder can do if they have one extra vestige? That's a very simple fix which would solve the Binder doldrums levels quite nicely.

Nothing would be broken -- the combos that come online at level 8 would be available sooner, but that's not a bad thing. The class would be a lot more interesting to play in levels 3-7.

I think your idea is good.