Unearthed Arcana came out today

[Daithi]

https://media.wizards.com/2018/dnd/downloads/723UA_EberronRaces7232018.pdf

[GlenSmash!]

I just added that link to the Eberron thread.

I'm glad you posted this one though. it deserves conversation on it's own.

[th3g0dc0mp13x]

Warforged coffeelock, now the easiest cheese on the block.

[8wGremlin]

Warforged coffeelock, now the easiest cheese on the block.

I came here to post this exact thing, from a 1 minute read of the warforged.

[GlenSmash!]

My thoughts. Changleing seems neat and flavorful.

Kalashtar seem like an interting blend of Human, Elf, and Ghostwise Halfling.

Shifters seem little changed besides an bump in ability scores. Shifting itself takes a bonus action which kinda hampers my idea for a Shifter Totem barbarian. It works it's just clunky.

I also dislike that the "Bear" themed Shifter doesn't get a Strength bonus though the "Wolf" one does since Bears are stronger than wolves and Werebears are stronger than Werewolves.

Wildhunt Shifter makes an awesome Ranger or Druid. Swiftstride gets great mobility as the name implies.

Warforged AC is greatly changed since the previous Eberron UA. I'm not a fan of adding Proficiency to AC unless it's something temporary like Defensive Duelist.

I find that with bounded accuracy AC that stay's relatively static keeps low CR monsters relevant even at high levels. I love that about 5e.

[JakOfAllTirades]

Seeing this in playtest form today pretty much dashes my hopes of seeing an Eberron hardback in the immediate future. OTOH, this UA is looking good.

And we got playable Goblinoid PC's in Volo's. (That was my favorite thing about Eberron.)

[Waterdeep Merch]

Thinking objectively about the warforged AC, I have two thoughts on dialing it back a notch.

The first is to simply halve the proficiency bonus, rounded down. Assuming point buy, that would change normal starting and maximum AC like-

Light Armor Start: 15 AC (down from 16)
Light Armor Max: 19 AC (down from 22)

Medium Armor Start: 16 AC (down from 17)
Medium Armor Max: 18 AC (down from 21)

Heavy Armor Start: 17 AC (down from 18)
Heavy Armor Max: 19 AC (down from 22)

My other thought is to lower the innate bonus to Light by 2, Medium by 1, and Heavy by 1. Same assumptions as last time-

Light Armor Start: 14 AC (down from 16)
Light Armor Max: 20 AC (down from 22)

Medium Armor Start: 16 AC (down from 17)
Medium Armor Max: 20 AC (down from 21)

Heavy Armor Start: 17 AC (down from 18)
Heavy Armor Max: 21 AC (down from 22)

I like the former example's set up for light armors better, but the latter for heavy. Medium, I'm not sure which offers a better solution. I'd prefer warforged to have armor superior to anyone but those clad in practically unheard of ultra powerful armor (+3), but it shouldn't be so crazy that it goofs on bounded accuracy.

[jaappleton]

I love the Kalashtar. Advantage on Wisdom saves, Resistance to Psychic damage. This shores up a MASSIVE weakness with Barbarians, while still being a Medium race so they can utilize GWM. Zealot Barbarians fit fairly well here, as well as Ancestral Guardians (using their Spirit as the Ancestor).

Even from a non-optimization standpoint, I just love their lore. Path of Light, their eyes can glow when focused or emotional (so that looks awesome), and their stat distribution is very versatile, allowing them to work for numerous builds. Paladins are an obvious fit, but with Psychic Glamour, they're amazing Inquisitive Rogues as well. And that works lore-wise because an Inquisitive could easily be some sort of detective style character helping out people.

However, with the addition of embedded components for Warforged, I have to say that using an armblade whip is some of the coolest stuff I've ever seen. LOVE that.

[MrStabby]

Well, I am OK with never sitting down at a table with warforged - and this doesn't change it. Although as much for balance reasons this tame as for the aesthetic/fluff.

Starting off with an AC of 20 at level 1 without the need to invest in armour... no sleeping... this whole thing is a mess.

If you just pretend the warforged doesn't exist the rest of it is actually pretty good at a first pass. Flavourful and seemingly pretty well balanced whilst not being entirely redundant.

[Aett_Thorn]

I honestly don't get why Warforged get both:

"You don’t need to sleep and don’t suffer the
effects of exhaustion due to lack of rest, and
magic can’t put you to sleep."

And

"Sentry’s Rest. When you take a long rest, you
must spend at least six hours of it in an inactive,
motionless state, rather than sleeping. In this
state, you appear inert, but it doesn’t render you
unconscious, and you can see and hear as
normal."

I think just giving them Sentry's Rest would be fine, and would take care of the coffeelock problem.

[MaxWilson]

I honestly don't get why Warforged get both:

"You don’t need to sleep and don’t suffer the
effects of exhaustion due to lack of rest, and
magic can’t put you to sleep."

And

"Sentry’s Rest. When you take a long rest, you
must spend at least six hours of it in an inactive,
motionless state, rather than sleeping. In this
state, you appear inert, but it doesn’t render you
unconscious, and you can see and hear as
normal."

I think just giving them Sentry's Rest would be fine, and would take care of the coffeelock problem.

I don't see the issue here. The idea is that they have downtime to repair themselves, but don't need it for normal function. They're complementary abilities.

[Daithi]

I honestly don't get why Warforged get both:

"You don’t need to sleep and don’t suffer the
effects of exhaustion due to lack of rest, and
magic can’t put you to sleep."

And

"Sentry’s Rest. When you take a long rest, you
must spend at least six hours of it in an inactive,
motionless state, rather than sleeping. In this
state, you appear inert, but it doesn’t render you
unconscious, and you can see and hear as
normal."

I think just giving them Sentry's Rest would be fine, and would take care of the coffeelock problem.

The Warforged as written would certainly be the route to take if you wanted to play a coffeelock, but I have to agree with Aett_Thorn. Just give them Sentry’s Rest and nerf the coffeelock stuff.

The juggernaught would make a pretty good grappler, as would the longtooth shifter. Kalashtar look pretty good for any of the Wisdom based classes (Cleric, Druid, Monk, Ranger).

Really good UA this month.

[Ralanr]

Idk what to make. A warforged barbarian, fighter or paladin?

I can’t wait to try them.

[rbstr]

Ignoring the coffeelock since it's stupid, and anyone that tries to play one can burst into flames:

Warforged AC is too dang high. Cool concept, just overtuned.
I quite like most of the rest of it...maybe too many races with dex bonuses.

[Tetrasodium]

all the people raving about the warforged coffeelock "problem" are directing their ire at the wrong place. most games peter out around level 10ish & the scorlock is stupidly in need of some errata and "oops we bleeped up" sanity checking barriers even if you only use PHB stuff, XgE just made that worse by giving them the ability to heal with charisma, get an amazing ranged LoH ability, attack/damage with melee weapons using charisma, etc.

The solution to stupid scorlock problems is to fix those problems rather than nerf everything else.

The fact that people are bringing it up because it was simply something that was difficult to do before lends merit to the complaints from eberron fans who have long been annoyed that WotC completely ignored it in all of the core books instead of making even minor preemptive plans to lay groundwork.

edit: I'm also glad that +2 cha+1 dex changelings will replace tieflings for the second most common PC race behind variant human

[AvvyR]

Hey, I fixed the Warforged Coffeelock problem (and coffeelock problem in general) in two steps.

1. Player says "I'm going to play a Warforged warlock/sorcerer!"

2. DM tells them exactly where they can stick that character.

[MrStabby]

Hey, I fixed the Warforged Coffeelock problem (and coffeelock problem in general) in two steps.

1. Player says "I'm going to play a Warforged warlock/sorcerer!"

2. DM tells them exactly where they can stick that character.

I'd play at that table.

[Finback]

Well, I am OK with never sitting down at a table with warforged - and this doesn't change it. Although as much for balance reasons this tame as for the aesthetic/fluff.

Starting off with an AC of 20 at level 1 without the need to invest in armour... no sleeping... this whole thing is a mess.

In fairness, that's entirely possible for other races/classes. I had a human vengadin who had AC20 at level 1, and didn't have to invest in armour (spoils of the adventure).

[MrStabby]

In fairness, that's entirely possible for other races/classes. I had a human vengadin who had AC20 at level 1, and didn't have to invest in armour (spoils of the adventure).

I suppose it is true that the DM can just give everyone enough plate mail that these things are irrelevant.

[Aaedimus]

Honestly, warforged is the only one that seems a little lack-luster to me. The others are all pretty legit and sound fun to play

[Exocist]

In fairness, that's entirely possible for other races/classes. I had a human vengadin who had AC20 at level 1, and didn't have to invest in armour (spoils of the adventure).

Isn't the Warforged Racial basically just them (eventually) having the equivalent of +3 Armor with a +1 AC bonus racial?

22 = 18 (Full Plate) + 3 (+3 Armor) + 1 (Racial).
21 = 15 (Half-Plate) + 2 (Dexterity) + 3 (+3 Armor) + 1 (Racial)

The only one that's slightly out of whack is the Light Armor one, which should be 21 instead of 22 at the highest level of play (Simple as changing it to 10 + Dex + Prof rather than 11 + Dex + Prof).

Now you could make the argument that +3 Armor is Very Rare Legendary (but there's +3 Armor with other bonuses that are also Legendary...) and having that as a racial ability is too strong, but this might also tell us that the designers assumed you'd have +1 Armor at level 9, +2 Armor at level 13 and +3 Armor at level 17, with the Warforged ability being balanced around that.

EDIT: If you're worried about the power of the Warforged ability giving them too much (Because you don't hand out magic armor/think it's unbalanced against monster to-hit/whatever) I would suggest just replacing it with "You have a +1 to AC". It would effectively be the same thing as the current racial ability.

[Tetrasodium]

I suppose it is true that the DM can just give everyone enough plate mail that these things are irrelevant.

defensive style will give 19 ac with starting gear (chainmail 16, shield+2, defensive style +1). Lets say he was doing lmop or similar, it's possibe to add a ring of protection to bring that to 20. More likely is that he simply picked up a set of ac17 splint to bring it to 20.

The warforged in question under those circumstances would have16 base+2 proficiency+2 shield+1 defensive style for 21 where it would remain until 5th level when it jumped to 22. Then at 9 13 & 17 it would go up another point each time.

The warforged's entire stchick has always been that it is hard to hurt and only sortakinda living if you squint Barring the fact that scorlock itself (has stupid combo's nobody at wotc stopped to sanity check before publishing), which is more useful... the tiefling's foire resist, the aasimar's necrotoic/radiant resist, or the warforged immune to poison/disease plus no need to breathe eat drink or sleep. Fire resist is unquestionably an amazing benefit. Radiant/necrotic resist can be great or just pointless depending on what you are fighting (look at how much in mtof deals necrotic large amounts of damage if you are skeptical). Poison/disease were a big deal in 3,5 yea, but not so much in 5e & the others are just kinda fun niche "hey guys I can jump off the boat here & bring our gear to shore after they search the boat" type spur of the moment things. Not being capable of wearing armor is both a blessing & a curse because it also means that you can't wear that shiny armor of whatever.


Isn't the Warforged Racial basically just them (eventually) having the equivalent of +3 Armor with a +1 AC bonus racial?

22 = 18 (Full Plate) + 3 (+3 Armor) + 1 (Racial).
21 = 15 (Half-Plate) + 2 (Dexterity) + 3 (+3 Armor) + 1 (Racial)

The only one that's slightly out of whack is the Light Armor one, which should be 21 instead of 22 at the highest level of play (Simple as changing it to 10 + Dex + Prof rather than 11 + Dex + Prof).

Now you could make the argument that +3 Armor is Very Rare and having that as a racial ability is too strong, but this might also tell us that the designers assumed you'd have +1 Armor at level 9, +2 Armor at level 13 and +3 Armor at level 17, with the Warforged ability being balanced around that.

Yes people are just freaking out because it immediately looks very high until you break down the numbers

[NaughtyTiger]

Changling.
At will 1st level.
2 skills
+ advantage on deception
Tool
Double proficiency tool
Impose disadvantage - Short rest
At at 1st level.
Beats a tiefling warlock.
Not beats a tiefling, but a tiefling warlock. Literally 2 warlock invocations.
Power creep.

[Tetrasodium]

Changling.
At will 1st level.
2 skills
+ advantage on deception
Tool
Double proficiency tool
Impose disadvantage - Short rest
At at 1st level.
Beats a tiefling warlock. Power creep.



I have to disagree and say that it is more of a lateral thing. The half elf, aasimar, & yaun-ti also get +2 charisma along with a bunch of other stuff. The reason that tiefling is so much better than those other options is because it gets fire resistance (which is bleeping incredible!).

Is the changeling great? Yea absolutely. Is the changeling stuff better than fire resistance thaumaturgy & some spells?... mm.... mmmmmaybe?

It's not like comparing the half orc in the phb with the "lolwtf?" full blooded orc in volos.

[NaughtyTiger]

Shifter
2 skills
A lot of temp hit points - short rest
+ bonus action attack!
Or extra speed.

Better than wood elf or half elf.

[Lord Vukodlak]

People are saying the warforged armor is to high and it does seem high especially at level one. But that big bonus quickly becomes a small bonus once the party starts to get its hands on some loot. And Ebberon is not a campaign setting that’s skimpy on loot.

That being said combined with all the other **** a war forged gets its a bit much. The plating type should probably be linked to the subtype rather then some morphic ability that can change based off your armor proficency.

[NaughtyTiger]

aasimar, & yaun-ti !).

Aasimar and yuan ti... The poster children for power creep.

[Exocist]

Changling.
At will 1st level.
2 skills
+ advantage on deception
Tool
Double proficiency tool
Impose disadvantage - Short rest
At at 1st level.
Beats a tiefling warlock.
Not beats a tiefling, but a tiefling warlock. Literally 2 warlock invocations.
Power creep.

Assuming that we're directly comparing them, here is what the Tiefling has that the Changeling doesn't

- Darkvision: Might never come up in your game, but this is something that can be incredibly useful to have.
- Fire Resistance: Half damage from the most common non-physical damage type
- Cantrip + Daily Powers: I don't find them very good (by eye), maybe someone who has actually played a Tiefling can tell you about how useful they are though?
- Winged Tiefling: Who even allows this though?

While the two skills + expertise tool are always useful, the at-will Disguise self is only ever as useful as your DM makes it. Some DMs will allow you to bypass a lot of encounters/get tons of free stuff with Disguise Self (though this would make casters equally broken) by impersonating certain nobles/high ranking persons. Some DMs will make it so that places that are hard to get into have code words/truesight sensors/whatever which means Disguise Self can only be used for very minor things. Point being it's an extraneous variable I can't account for.

A better comparison would be to the Half-Elf, you're swapping one point in an ability score, Fey Ancestry and Darkvision for tool expertise, advantage on deception & at-will disguise self. Half-Elf is more combat focused, Changeling is more skill/out of combat focused.

[Tetrasodium]

Aasimar and yuan ti... The poster children for power creep.

and still... it was the tiefling warlock specifically that you were concerned about. losing its crown rather than either of those "poster children for power creep". It's almost like someone realized that new races need to be laterally on similar level of goodness compared to the base races rather than simply being equal in a spreadsheet isolated from the realities of the game itself.

That fire resistant tiefling is still great, the changeling is great in different ways.

[Luccan]

Changeling bothers me a little, getting two (albeit somewhat predetermined) skills and a tool proficiency (with conditional expertise). I know there are uses for regular human, but the more races get multiple skills and tools on top of active racial abilities, the worse they look. As someone who played 3.5 and is used to human being an all around decent choice, they more and more seem like they're second best for whatever you want them to do.

Edit: What I mean to say is, humans are still presented as being good at whatever they want to focus on, but since all they get are some fairly meager stat boosts, they come out more as slightly better at what they're bad at and not nearly as good as anyone whose focused on their racial advantages. V. humans get a boost thanks to their feat, but that doesn't feel like much of a patch unless you're getting something really good out of it.

[Exocist]

and still... it was the tiefling warlock specifically that you were concerned about. losing its crown rather than either of those "poster children for power creep". It's almost like someone realized that new races need to be laterally on similar level of goodness compared to the base races rather than simply being equal in a spreadsheet isolated from the realities of the game itself.

That fire resistant tiefling is still great, the changeling is great in different ways.

I consider the newer races (Aasimir/Yuan-Ti/Eberron) to be an attempt to make races on par with Vuman (by giving them abilities that can't easily be replicated). It's no secret that (unless you're going for a racial feat) the base races kind of suck compared to Vuman.

[Corran]

About the changeling, I would prefer if unsettling visage was slightly stronger, or better to allow a chance (perception or insight check) for anyoe within 30' to spot it instead of automatic success, in order to make it more of a hard choice if you care about keeping your cover. I like the idea behind it, but I would like there to be a risk (dice rolls) to make using it more of a risk and less of a calculated decision. Not giving them darkvision can be a bit awkward too, as justifying being an elf/dwarf/etc who cant see in the dark, sure is awkward. Other than that I really like the race.

[Tetrasodium]

Changeling bothers me a little, getting two (albeit somewhat predetermined) skills and a tool proficiency (with conditional expertise). I know there are uses for regular human, but the more races get multiple skills and tools on top of active racial abilities, the worse they look. As someone who played 3.5 and is used to human being an all around decent choice, they more and more seem like they're second best for whatever you want them to do.

I think you are drastically undervaluing the value of being able to choose a feat at first level to get a 4 level jump on your character's feat plans. are those tool/skills really more valuable than your choice of PAM/Sentinel/warcaster/etc.

Humans will still be good, don't worry. I assure you that the human tool/skill proficiency thing is not the reason why they are statistically the most popular race (https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-your-dd-character-rare/).

[leogobsin]

About the changeling, I would prefer if unsettling visage was slightly stronger, or better to allow a chance (perception or insight check) for anyoe within 30' to spot it instead of automatic success, in order to make it more of a hard choice if you care about keeping your cover. I like the idea behind it, but I would like there to be a risk (dice rolls) to make using it more of a risk and less of a calculated decision. Not giving them darkvision can be a bit awkward too, as justifying being an elf/dwarf/etc who cant see in the dark, sure is awkward. Other than that I really like the race.

About Darkvision, I don't think giving them a feature just to make it easier to pass themselves off as another race is really fair. Sure, darkvision is one of the more obvious tells, but you could also spot a shifter by them being a Goliath unable to move heavy objects, or an elf who sleeps rather than trancing.

[Tetrasodium]

About the changeling, I would prefer if unsettling visage was slightly stronger, or better to allow a chance (perception or insight check) for anyoe within 30' to spot it instead of automatic success, in order to make it more of a hard choice if you care about keeping your cover. I like the idea behind it, but I would like there to be a risk (dice rolls) to make using it more of a risk and less of a calculated decision. Not giving them darkvision can be a bit awkward too, as justifying being an elf/dwarf/etc who cant see in the dark, sure is awkward. Other than that I really like the race.

they are from eberron where even your average farm probably has at least one continual flame lantern. in my eberron games I have goodlights (10-15'dim no bright) as things you can buy for a few cp if you look in the right places & 15' darkvision attune required items only slightly more expensive. not as good as full darkvision, but it's enough to get by with if you don't mind losing an attunement slot.

[Corran]

@ leogodsin & tetrasodium: Good points. Which made me pay a little more attention to the fluff, which says that wherever there are humans, there are changelings. So more of an intentional and thought out choice than an oversight, which I first thought it was.

[Nifft]

Changeling bothers me a little, getting two (albeit somewhat predetermined) skills and a tool proficiency (with conditional expertise). I know there are uses for regular human, but the more races get multiple skills and tools on top of active racial abilities, the worse they look. As someone who played 3.5 and is used to human being an all around decent choice, they more and more seem like they're second best for whatever you want them to do.

Edit: What I mean to say is, humans are still presented as being good at whatever they want to focus on, but since all they get are some fairly meager stat boosts, they come out more as slightly better at what they're bad at and not nearly as good as anyone whose focused on their racial advantages. V. humans get a boost thanks to their feat, but that doesn't feel like much of a patch unless you're getting something really good out of it.

5e is intended to evoke nostalgia for 2e, which is the edition where humans were garbage and half-elves were just plain better.

But seriously, maybe Dragonmarks will compensate -- I think none of these powerful playtest races get access to Dragonmarks.

[Tetrasodium]

@ leogodsin & tetrasodium: Good points. Which made me pay a little more attention to the fluff, which says that wherever there are humans, there are changelings. So more of an intentional and thought out choice than an oversight, which I first thought it was.

Yea, Keith Baker gives a lot more thought to that kind of stuff & it very much shows in eberron. I'd suggest reading over this (http://keith-baker.com/dragonmarks-changelings/) post of his on changelings to really get a feel for them beyond what you find in wgte or the UA. The blog post pulls a lot from various 3,5 & 4e eberron books as well as other writings published in things like dragon mag.

a persona is more than just another face & always was (although I don't remember if 3.5 named them), there's just a mechanic for it now in the 5e version. I's more like having multiple personalities with one that can play orchestral concert piano that has been doing so for years

[Tetrasodium]

5e is intended to evoke nostalgia for 2e, which is the edition where humans were garbage and half-elves were just plain better.

But seriously, maybe Dragonmarks will compensate -- I think none of these powerful playtest races get access to Dragonmarks.


Dwarf: mark of warding
Halfling: Mark of healing, Mark of Hospitality
elf: Mark of shadow
Gnome: Mark of scribing
Half orc: Mark of finding
Half-Elf: Mark of storm, Detection
Human: Mark of Making, Mark of Sentinel, finding, Sentinel
Any: Aberrant Mark

Also, if you think humans are "garbage", you might want to rethink that man.

[Rebonack]

Does it concern anyone else that Kalashtari telepathy absolutely blows GOO Awakened Mind out of the water?

[Corran]

Yea, Keith Baker gives a lot more thought to that kind of stuff & it very much shows in eberron. I'd suggest reading over this (http://keith-baker.com/dragonmarks-changelings/) post of his on changelings to really get a feel for them beyond what you find in wgte or the UA.
Just wanted to say a big thank you for pointing to me this article. It was very enjoyable to read and a great source of inspiration for when I decide to play a changeling character.

[Tetrasodium]

Does it concern anyone else that Kalashtari telepathy absolutely blows GOO Awakened Mind out of the water?

No it does not. I was not aware that first level ability was considered a defining trait for goo warlock given the rest of the class. I believe telepathy like that was something kalaashtar have always had

[Exocist]

No it does not. I was not aware that first level ability was considered a defining trait for goo warlock given the rest of the class. I believe telepathy like that was something kalaashtar have always had

Usually the first level ability for Warlock subraces is kind of bad/fluff. Let's take a look at them:

- Archfey - 10ft cube, originating from you, WIS save vs Charmed or Frightened for one round. Short or Long rest recharge. Doesn't seem great.
- Celestial - Couple of cantrips you won't ever use (I lie, you might use Light). Lay-On-Hands lite, but ranged and as a bonus action. Guess it's ok for making people get up at 0, but if you're dropping to 0 that often... what are you actually doing?
- Fiend - Ok, Dark One's Blessing is actually pretty good, but only if you take more Warlock levels.
- Ghost in the Shell Machine - Seems pretty awful. They get a saving throw and the device only ceases to function for one turn? And it's a rest recharge? You get spells and a cantrip that are useful in that setting though.
- Great Old One - Just kind of flavour ability that has no real synergy with everything else.
- Hexblade - ... If you're 1-20 Hexblade, Hex Warrior makes you not suck in melee and Hexblade's Curse is still better if you spam Eldritch Blast seriously wtf makes you do some decent damage. The fact that this is the most dipped thing ever for Charisma classes should tell you all you need to know about Hexblade 1 though.
- Raven Queen - This is actually a pretty good ability. You get a familiar that comes back on a short rest if it dies, can give you free Help actions every turn (as per normal for a familiar) and they're disincentivised to kill it because then you get advantage on every attack against them for the next 24 hours? It's a shame the subclass past 6 kind of sucks. Probably also won't get released as is because this is a super easy 1 drop for rogues.
- Seeker - For one turn they attack someone else and you get an Attack of Opportunity.
- Undying - Maybe if you're in an undead heavy campaign?

So we've got 2 that are pretty great no matter what (Hexblade/Raven Queen) and 2 that are good-ish if you plan on taking more Warlock levels (Fiend/Celestial). Out of 9 subclasses that doesn't seem like a great strike rate.

[Fnissalot]

I am ok with the AC of the warforged. They cannot benefit from any type of armour which is pretty ****ty at later stages.

The shifter gets some nice temp hp. The changing are absurdly strong in the right non-combat focused campaign. The kalashtar makes GOO warlocks look like a terrible choice.

I would not look at it in a vacuum though. All 4 races seem strong but the common races from PHB gets the dragon marked subraces in the WGtE which also is a fair bit stronger than their previous options. I think the idea will be that eberron characters are supposed to be over the power curve.

[Unoriginal]

Can the Warforged use other body-covering magic items like boots or gauntlets?

If yes, I don't see how "can't wear armor" is a downside at all.

[Maxilian]

A Warforged can literally live in a Bag of Holding, if you pick UA Artificer, you could make one Bag of Holding and even a companion to carry it around. (Basically a house -just mind the weight limit)

[Unoriginal]

A Warforged can literally live in a Bag of Holding, if you pick UA Artificer, you could make one Bag of Holding and even a companion to carry it around. (Basically a house -just mind the weight limit)

Would they fit through the opening?

[JoeJ]

Warforged coffeelock, now the easiest cheese on the block.

How would you justify gaining sorcerer levels with a race that has no bloodline and no ancestors?

[Nifft]

How would you justify gaining sorcerer levels with a race that has no bloodline and no ancestors?

"This ain't rust."

What you do is you paint lines on the Warforged using the blood of some powerful being, such as a dragon or whatnot.

[Tetrasodium]

Can the Warforged use other body-covering magic items like boots or gauntlets?

If yes, I don't see how "can't wear armor" is a downside at all.

It's not & they get warforged components. The original UA warforged version was so problematic because they could & as a result stripped them of one of their defining features by making them like everyone else


A Warforged can literally live in a Bag of Holding, if you pick UA Artificer, you could make one Bag of Holding and even a companion to carry it around. (Basically a house -just mind the weight limit)


Yes. Back in 3,5 I had one with a portable hole who would frequently hide in it for plot reasons often relating to the fact that he had like -15 persuade/insight & deliberately used intimidate for any/all social interactions :D. There were some warforged PrC's like charger & such too is how he got such awful social abilities


How would you justify gaining sorcerer levels with a race that has no bloodline and no ancestors?

That question cuts to the heart of the complaint from eberron fans about how $otherSetting is painted on too thick & infecting any future eberron stuff. Not only that, it's a very minor & easily ignoble one. Here (http://keith-baker.com/sorcerers-2/) is a nice article about sorcerers in eberron, but also bear in mind that there were a lot of different types of warforged made when you include the one offs & experiments. Maybe you had some dragon blood/scale/bone tossed into thecreation forge when you got made & literally have a dragon who commissioned you (openly/secretly/etc). Maybe your draconic "bloodline" is more tied to The Prophecy. Maybe you don't know or care. Maybe you don't know & it worries you. Part of what makes warforged so much fun is that they are not born & don't have anything akin to parents, it lets you get into very murky existential questions with your character background/history that would not be possible with other races.

[Zalabim]

I think the most important question that hasn't been asked is how do you want to describe your autobot? An Envoy Warforged's Integrated Tool just has to be a land or water vehicle. There's no other choice that can top that.


How would you justify gaining sorcerer levels with a race that has no bloodline and no ancestors?
It's an origin, not a bloodline. How do you justify a Warforged Wild Mage? How do you not!?

[Kadesh]

This forum is making me really sad to say i play d&d. It is always the same people as well: i wouldn't want to play with you at a table if you are this continually negative. If you're not like that in real life, can you stop with the whole 'other setting infecting Eberron' or 'not my faerun' nonsense?.

The creator of eberron is on board with this 'other setting infecting it' given that he is a part of the team. And either he is not above letting his creation get 'infected' so that he can continue to feed the family despite not wanting it, or he is perfrctly okay with letting multiversal settings exist.

Get with the program, or get off, basically. Your headcanon magical realm isn't being infected. Just tell your players that you are ignoring 5E Eberron in favour of 3E source material. If your players are on board, they'll do that. If not, well, sucks to be you, find a group who will instead of ranting about it.

'Infecting other settings' my big fat round one.

[Unoriginal]

This forum is making me really sad to say i play d&d.

Personally it's more "this forum is making me sad to go on this forum", sometime.




The creator of eberron is on board with this 'other setting infecting it' given that he is a part of the team. And either he is not above letting his creation get 'infected' so that he can continue to feed the family despite not wanting it, or he is perfrctly okay with letting multiversal settings exist.

Yeah, while he doesn't have creative control anymore, it's him who came up with the explanation as to how Eberron wfit into the Material Plane, according to Crawford.

[Tetrasodium]

Personally it's more "this forum is making me sad to go on this forum", sometime.




Yeah, while he doesn't have creative control anymore, it's him who came up with the explanation as to how Eberron wfit into the Material Plane, according to Crawford.

and I've already said (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23244802&postcount=3) that it was a good one. Compare his entirely in setting rootedexplanation to the nightmare fuel from 4e or ddo & it's not hard to see why people would be concerned as soon as they started talking about echoes of lolth in the blood & such or every time they talked about eberron being part pf the shared multiverse in ways that were always $otherSetting applies to eberron as it is in $otherSetting. page 19 (https://twitter.com/JM13136849/status/1021690607104913412) of wgte does a great job of summing up why people get upset about the lore/fluff from other settings being dumped on eberron in the past & preemptively up in arms over the possibility that it might happen again. I've already seen a post from someone quoting part of the next page about eberron being part of the multiverse that stopped just before it began talking about the reasons it's cut off that JC went into here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4&v=9JHyJj8C21c). Unsurprisingly that post was from someone upset that people had the gall to complain about eberron being part of the shared multiverse only far enough to get lore transplants dumped on it from other settings in the past.

edit: Also I got the feeling that JC was trying to explain it in a way that did not require us to quote huge sections of wgte. He did a good job of it.

[NaughtyTiger]

[QUOTE=Tetrasodium;23244047]and still... it was the tiefling warlock /QUOTE]

right, cuz the tiefling is baseline.
the yuan ti and aasimar are already widely recognized as OP, so no one who wants balance in a game would bring them up as acceptable...

It's almost like someone realized that new races need to be better compared to the base races rather to sell more books.

I gather that you don't see any power creep in the new races.

The only reason i don't see more volo's at the table is the PHB+1 limit, and people want XGE spells/classes.
They have explicitly said this. I have explicitly said this.

[Dragolord]

Dwarf: mark of warding
Halfling: Mark of healing, Mark of Hospitality
elf: Mark of shadow
Gnome: Mark of scribing
Half orc: Mark of finding
Half-Elf: Mark of storm, Detection
Human: Mark of Making, Mark of Sentinel, finding, Sentinel
Any: Aberrant Mark

Technically, an Aberrant Mark can only appear on a member of a Dragonmarked race, unless your DM is letting you play a special snowflake freak of nature.

[Smitty Wesson]

How would you justify gaining sorcerer levels with a race that has no bloodline and no ancestors?

It's a race that has souls for reasons that are mysterious in-universe, it's pretty easy to justify a lot.

[Rebonack]

No it does not. I was not aware that first level ability was considered a defining trait for goo warlock given the rest of the class. I believe telepathy like that was something kalaashtar have always had

GOO's patron features are pretty lacking for the most part. Anyone who takes it is typically taking it for flavor. They get a few solid patron spells but otherwise Awakened Mind is the main mechanical draw in my experience.

[Spiritchaser]

I’m fairly stingy with magic armor (none yet at level 15, though in fairness, they’ll soon have the opportunity to find some) so the war forged numbers do seem very high. I’d dial light back by 2, medium and heavy back by 1, then offer a racial feat that gave an additional +1 AC, and then some other durability advantage... a bonus to save every short rest, an extra HP per level or make it a half feat with +1 Con

On the other hand, with the exception of warlocks and gloomstalkers, I don’t think too many of my players would select one for optimization reasons, even as they are, though they might play one for the concept.

Without Darkvision they’re at a serious disadvantage given how my group plays.

That said, a war forged hexblade could be pretty tight thematically, and probably pretty good.

As for coffee lock concerns, meh, easy enough to fix abuse, just be clear and firm with players about what is ok and what isn’t

[Exocist]

I’m fairly stingy with magic armor (none yet at level 15, though in fairness, they’ll soon have the opportunity to find some) so the war forged numbers do seem very high. I’d dial light back by 2, medium and heavy back by 1, then offer a racial feat that gave an additional +1 AC, and then some other durability advantage... a bonus to save every short rest, an extra HP per level or make it a half feat with +1 Con

On the other hand, with the exception of warlocks and gloomstalkers, I don’t think too many of my players would select one for optimization reasons, even as they are, though they might play one for the concept.

Without Darkvision they’re at a serious disadvantage given how my group plays.

That said, a war forged hexblade could be pretty tight thematically, and probably pretty good.

As for coffee lock concerns, meh, easy enough to fix abuse, just be clear and firm with players about what is ok and what isn’t

Ya, the only time the Warforged might seem incredibly broken is if you don't hand out Magic Armor. In this case I'd suggest changing the ability to "You have +1 AC". It would keep the numbers the same if they actually did find the appropriate magic armor at the levels given, but it would make it easier to balance out your encounters because either everyone has +X Magic Armor or no one does, rather than the WF "always" having +X Magic Armor (once they hit level 9) and the rest of the group not having any.

[nickl_2000]

Ignoring the coffeelock since it's stupid, and anyone that tries to play one can burst into flames:

Warforged AC is too dang high. Cool concept, just overtuned.
I quite like most of the rest of it...maybe too many races with dex bonuses.

If a player tried to play a coffeelock at a table I was DMing, I would light the character sheet on fire. I sure as heck hope that they aren't using an electronic character sheet on their phone!

[Dr. Cliché]

Shifters seem little changed besides an bump in ability scores. Shifting itself takes a bonus action which kinda hampers my idea for a Shifter Totem barbarian. It works it's just clunky.

I also dislike that the "Bear" themed Shifter doesn't get a Strength bonus though the "Wolf" one does since Bears are stronger than wolves and Werebears are stronger than Werewolves.

To be honest, it's a bit weird that Shifters get +1 Dex by default - since Wereboars and Wearbears only have 10 Dex themselves.

But, yeah, the bear-themed Shifters should probably be the ones getting the strength.

If anything, I'd expect the Werewolf Shifters to have the most dex alongside wererats. I mean, the 'cat' shifters are based on tigers - which are considerably larger and stronger than wolves.

Not a huge issue but it does seem a rather strange way to go about it. :smallconfused:

[NiklasWB]

Concerning Integrated Protection and Barbarians

So correct me if I'm wrong, but going by RAW, a Warforged Barbarian would now be able to use Heavy Plating from Integrated Protection and still benefit from their Rage ability, right? Given that they somehow get heavy armor proficiency first of course (through feat or multiclassing, both which are optional rules).

While Heavy Plating requires heavy armor procifiency and is stated to be "(armor)" under Mode for the Integrated Protection racial ability, RAW it actually doesn't say that it is "Heavy Armor". Also, it clearly states that you "gain no benefit from wearing armor", further stressing that the Integrated Protection is not actually Armor (in the traditional sense). And since the only caveat of Rage is "While raging, you gain the following benefits if you aren't wearing heavy armor" it should still be possible for a Warforged barbarian to benefit from Rage and use Heavy Plating at the same time.

I'm not sure this is RAI, but it does open up an interesting high AC barbarian build. It also kind of fits the Juggernaut idea of being able to use the heaviest armor possible.

[nickl_2000]

Concerning Integrated Protection and Barbarians

So correct me if I'm wrong, but going by RAW, a Warforged Barbarian would now be able to use Heavy Plating from Integrated Protection and still benefit from their Rage ability, right? Given that they somehow get heavy armor proficiency first of course (through feat or multiclassing, both which are optional rules).

While Heavy Plating requires heavy armor procifiency and is stated to be "(armor)" under Mode for the Integrated Protection racial ability, RAW it actually doesn't say that it is "Heavy Armor". Also, it clearly states that you "gain no benefit from wearing armor", further stressing that the Integrated Protection is not actually Armor (in the traditional sense). And since the only caveat of Rage is "While raging, you gain the following benefits if you aren't wearing heavy armor" it should still be possible for a Warforged barbarian to benefit from Rage and use Heavy Plating at the same time.

I'm not sure this is RAI, but it does open up an interesting high AC barbarian build. It also kind of fits the Juggernaut idea of being able to use the heaviest armor possible.

RAW, yes in the same way a Monk would be able to benefit from Martial Arts and Unarmored Movement. RAI this seems broken... This is why it's still Unearthed Arcana

[Nidgit]

If people are concerned about balancing Warforged AC against magic armor, why not lock part of that AC behind a racial feat? Make the default Warforged AC to include half your proficiency bonus and the feat to allow you to use your whole proficiency bonus.

[rbstr]

Concerning Integrated Protection and Barbarians

So correct me if I'm wrong, but going by RAW, a Warforged Barbarian would now be able to use Heavy Plating from Integrated Protection and still benefit from their Rage ability, right? Given that they somehow get heavy armor proficiency first of course (through feat or multiclassing, both which are optional rules).

While Heavy Plating requires heavy armor procifiency and is stated to be "(armor)" under Mode for the Integrated Protection racial ability, RAW it actually doesn't say that it is "Heavy Armor". Also, it clearly states that you "gain no benefit from wearing armor", further stressing that the Integrated Protection is not actually Armor (in the traditional sense). And since the only caveat of Rage is "While raging, you gain the following benefits if you aren't wearing heavy armor" it should still be possible for a Warforged barbarian to benefit from Rage and use Heavy Plating at the same time.

I'm not sure this is RAI, but it does open up an interesting high AC barbarian build. It also kind of fits the Juggernaut idea of being able to use the heaviest armor possible.

Even if Integrated Protection does count as Heavy Armor and prevents Rage, the Medium armor version is still gonna give a Barbarian great AC and save them Dexterity ASIs.

[PeteNutButter]

The warforged mechanically are going to be devisive as they are balanced around magic items which seems to be against the design philosophy of the game. On the other hand giving them a racial AC that would get passed up by +2 armor would make late game warforged crap (in games with magic items at least). So we can see how they were screwed either way. They probably figured most people play with magic items. In AL they would actually be fine. My high AC character got his plate at level 5, his +1 plate at level 8, and +2 at level 12. That means at any level the warforged would have been equal or one better. As a human I got a free feat. Seems fine.

Other odd interactions are caused by not technically wearing armor. They can’t benefit from HAM which seems odd since damage reduction was kind of their thing in 3.5e. They could make a separate racial feat for it but they probably shouldn’t because you can totally rage in warforged “heavy armor.” Fighter 1/Barb x anyone? That could be a problem. It AC thing also takes everything cool about the Tortle and craps on it. If my Druid dips life cleric he now gets plate AC that scales with level...? Hmm

I’m not crazy about the Eberron setting but Warforged are a refreshingly unique race. They’re like a fantasy version of a terminator.

I’m just sad because I know they’ll get over-nerfed by the time of official release so that when I actually get to play one, it’ll be weaker than the ol’ variant human.

[samcifer]

I was hoping for an intelligence-focused sub-race of warforged, but I guess they left it out. :(

[Shining Wrath]

If someone told me they were going to have a character who never took a long rest, I'd wait until they'd been awake for a week or so, then decree they fell asleep and could not be wakened by anything except Wish for 24 hours. This would happen at a moment when they were doing something fatiguing, like engaging in combat, or climbing a cliff. :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, I wouldn't allow it as a DM. Not even for a Warforged. It's cheese, and not of the sort that makes the game fun.

AFB: do the Warforged still have limitations on their healing?

[leogobsin]

AFB: do the Warforged still have limitations on their healing?

Nope, it's explicitly called out that magical healing works exactly as it would on living creatures.

[nickl_2000]

If someone told me they were going to have a character who never took a long rest, I'd wait until they'd been awake for a week or so, then decree they fell asleep and could not be wakened by anything except Wish for 24 hours. This would happen at a moment when they were doing something fatiguing, like engaging in combat, or climbing a cliff. :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, I wouldn't allow it as a DM. Not even for a Warforged. It's cheese, and not of the sort that makes the game fun.

AFB: do the Warforged still have limitations on their healing?

Nope, there is no limit to healing anymore. The only negative is that they get no benefits from armor (which means even if they wear magic armor, it doesn't help them with ancillary benefits). Also it specifically says that "You don’t need to eat, drink, or breathe." meaning that you still can eat a goodberry.

[robbie374]

Does it concern anyone else that Kalashtari telepathy absolutely blows GOO Awakened Mind out of the water?

Personally I think GOO telepathy should be able to go both ways, at the very least. Yes, the Kalashtari is way betteer than the GOO warlock, but that's only because the GOO warlock should be changed to match.

[robbie374]

The warforged mechanically are going to be devisive as they are balanced around magic items which seems to be against the design philosophy of the game. On the other hand giving them a racial AC that would get passed up by +2 armor would make late game warforged crap (in games with magic items at least). So we can see how they were screwed either way. They probably figured most people play with magic items. In AL they would actually be fine. My high AC character got his plate at level 5, his +1 plate at level 8, and +2 at level 12. That means at any level the warforged would have been equal or one better. As a human I got a free feat. Seems fine.

Other odd interactions are caused by not technically wearing armor. They can’t benefit from HAM which seems odd since damage reduction was kind of their thing in 3.5e. They could make a separate racial feat for it but they probably shouldn’t because you can totally rage in warforged “heavy armor.” Fighter 1/Barb x anyone? That could be a problem. It AC thing also takes everything cool about the Tortle and craps on it. If my Druid dips life cleric he now gets plate AC that scales with level...? Hmm

I’m not crazy about the Eberron setting but Warforged are a refreshingly unique race. They’re like a fantasy version of a terminator.

I’m just sad because I know they’ll get over-nerfed by the time of official release so that when I actually get to play one, it’ll be weaker than the ol’ variant human.


Yeah, clearly it was meant to scale with magic armor, but that presumes there is magic armor, which is unfair to other players. I think they should instead add half proficiency, which keeps it much more balanced. But what about magic armor, then? Maybe they can gain another trait:

Magical Protection. When you find magic armor with which you are proficient, you can spend your Sentry's Rest holding the armor as if attuning to it. At the end of the rest, your Integrated Protection gains all of the magical qualities of that armor, including filling an attunement spot if appropriate. In exchange, the magical armor loses all of its magical properties, becoming non-magical.
If your Integrated Protection has already become magical in this way, its former magical properties are replaced by its new magical properties.

[LudicSavant]

Concerning Integrated Protection

The intent of the Warforged appears to be that they progress in such a way that they work out to (similar proficiency character who is advancing with the magic item economy, +1 AC). For instance, a Level 20 heavily plated warforged has 22 AC (while a level 20 human with +3 armor has 21 AC). The issue with this is that many DMs don't want to follow a magic item economy schedule, particularly for advancing AC. It seems to me that this could be addressed by making Warforged progression look like (similar proficiency character with good mundane armor, +1 AC) and make their plating able to get enchanted like a magic item (as was the case in previous editions).

So, Warforged in heavy plating max out at 19 AC, etc, but warforged can now get their plating modded with magic item enhancements using treasure.

[KorvinStarmast]

The creator of eberron is on board with this 'other setting infecting it' given that he is a part of the team. And either he is not above letting his creation get 'infected' so that he can continue to feed the family despite not wanting it, or he is perfrctly okay with letting multiversal settings exist. Yeah, I'd hope the Eberron afficionados to show Mr Baker a little respect.

Yeah, while he doesn't have creative control anymore, it's him who came up with the explanation as to how Eberron wfit into the Material Plane, according to Crawford. I am of the understanding that he contributed to the DM Guild document as well.


right, cuz the tiefling is baseline.
the yuan ti and aasimar are already widely recognized as OP How is aasimar OP?

I gather that you don't see any power creep in the new races. I've been watching a bit of power creep and it might be nearly impossible to stop.
quote] The only reason i don't see more volo's at the table is the PHB+1 limit, and people want XGE spells/classes. They have explicitly said this. I have explicitly said this.[/QUOTE] Neat.

If someone told me they were going to have a character who never took a long rest, I'd wait until they'd been awake for a week or so, then decree they fell asleep and could not be wakened by anything except Wish for 24 hours. This would happen at a moment when they were doing something fatiguing, like engaging in combat, or climbing a cliff. :smallbiggrin: Amen.

Question: what happens with a warforged meets a rust monster?

For our various Eberron fans: can you do the whole player base a favor?
Please take a good hard look at the UA and playtest it with a critical eye, rather than with a fanboi's heart due to love of the setting. Of all things I'd like to see not happen (like the loremaster mage) is power creep, even though it's been sneaking in here and there. I'd love to see the Eberron stuff fit in with the rest of the pile-of-features. I think this UA as a second try (they are up to third try on Mystic/psionics) is another good way to work through some of the holes in the cheese.

[Matrix_Walker]

I was hoping for an intelligence-focused sub-race of warforged, but I guess they left it out. :(

The Calculator? Abacus?

Great point for the feedback poll!

[LudicSavant]

I gather that you don't see any power creep in the new races.

I think this (https://youtu.be/M3b3hDvRjJA?t=1m56s) game design principle is important to keep in mind. As the video points out, many people get the concept of power creep wrong in a few notable ways. The video provides some excellent examples of this, contrasting why Ice Rager is not power creep (despite directly overshadowing some older options) with why Piloted Shredder is.

Without coming down on either side, it's worth noting that for something to be power creep, it has to be superior to previously available options which are particularly competitive, not merely superior to some other options in the game. In other words, for the races to be power creep, they'd have to be better than Hill Dwarves, Variant Humans, Variant Half-Elves, Feral Tieflings, Yuan-Ti, and the like.

To put it another way, if you release a spell that is literally Witch Bolt except dealing +1 damage, it's still not power creep, even though it is flatly superior to Witch Bolt, because Witch Bolt wasn't on the curve in the first place.

So, when people say "overpowered" or "power creep" I wonder if they're really intending to say that these races are merely consistently strong or whether they're claiming that they're actually pushing out Hill Dwarves and Variant Humans and such.

__________________

Regarding Warforged, I really like the Envoys, but there are a few notable issues with the race overall:
1) Interactions with Coffeelocks etc. Honestly I place the blame here on the design that created coffeelocks in the first place rather than the Warforged. The solution here would be to close the coffeelock loophole for everyone not just Warforged.
2) Plating just counts as "armor" rather than a specific weight class of armor. This should probably be amended to prevent some fiddly weird interactions.
3) Plating advances in a way that assumes everyone's following the magic item economy, which DMs want the freedom to not follow. This can be solved by making them advance in line with mundane gear assumptions instead, and allowing Warforged to enchant their plating as a magic item by some means or other.

[Quoxis]

Can’t wait to play a warforged envoy scout rogue/knowledge cleric - a walking library of tool and skill proficiencies called Wikipedius.

[Sception]

I don't see what was wrong with warforged just using normal armor. So you bolt it on instead of strapping it on, don't see why that needs a mess of special rules, extra ac, or preventing regular or magic armor. Maybe just replace the whole thing with a +1 racial bonus to AC.

That said, I don't have a big problem with it as it is, either., provided that you count the integrated armor as armor of the appropriate type. That, and id prefer the armor were a choice at character creation, not something easily changed whenever.

As for the person who wanted an int based subrace, how does Envoy not have you covered? I can think of worse wizard races than "+1 int, +1 dex, +1 con (alt +1 int +1 wis, +1 con, or +1 int, +2 con), integrated alchemist kit (with free proficiency), bonus skill, bonus language, and free, always on, better mage armor.

I'd personally like to try an Envoy Conquerer with +1 str, con, and cha, better heavy armor, etc.

[bobofwestgate]

Coffilock aside. The envoy is a flavor win. Built in tool set. I can imagine the warforged with the alchemy kit in it. Tilts back head. poors in ingredients. bubbling and hissing. spigot pops out of torso and it poors a alchemical item into a flask

[samcifer]

The Calculator? Abacus?

Great point for the feedback poll!

I just mean that there was originally a sub-race that boosted intelligence that would've been great for my idea for a wargored conjurer wizard who studies conjurations and constructs to better understand himself as he searches the world for the secret to how his kind were created to rejuvenate the species and save them from going extinct.

[GlenSmash!]

I don't see what was wrong with warforged just using normal armor. So you bolt it on instead of strapping it on, don't see why that needs a mess of special rules, extra ac, or preventing regular or magic armor. Maybe just replace the whole thing with a +1 racial bonus to AC.

It's funny, That's exactly what Warforged got in the older Unearthed Arcana on Eberron.

[Backlash3906]

A little bothered that Wildhunt were the only shifters not to have any suggested animal templates.

[KorvinStarmast]

Inflation strikes again.
Power Creep Item 1: Changeling.
Compared to base races in 5e, Changeling is very strong in terms of a spell-like ability provided to change appearance. It looks like a free alter self three times per day, more or less. Who else gets that for free? Mini doppelganger. To fit into 5e's balance mold, currently, this needs to be downscaled a lot.

Power Creep Item 2: Kalashtar
Two to many features. Dump Psychic damage resistance, and either dump dream resistance or dump telepathy. This is free class features from the Mystic ... but I love the thematic approach to this. They are mixing a class and a race here.

Power Creep Item 3: Shifter. This one almost makes it.

Dump the universal perception proficiency, or dump the unique proficiency for the shifter sub race. I'd dump the former. I love the way the latter flavors each kind of shifter. Bloated as is. Dumping perception for all IMO brings this one close, though I'd recommend limiting to transformation to a long rest, not short rest, to be more in line with Tiefling ... or dragonborn ... rather than being a mini Druid.

Power Creep Item 4: Warforged
• You have advantage on saving throws against being poisoned, and you have resistance to poison damage.
Dwarf.
• You are immune to disease.
Third level paladin
• You don’t need to eat, drink, or breathe. Monk.
• You don’t need to sleep Elf

pick one.

------------------

Thematically, I love them all.
Mechanically, this is like very bad homebrew.

[Quoxis]

A little bothered that Wildhunt were the only shifters not to have any suggested animal templates.

„Any animal that hunts in packs“ in the race flavor text. Broad, yes, but still.

[solidork]

I like all of these races and would be excited to play any of them. I especially like the Kashaltar, with the always on advantage for one skill.

[Kadesh]

Coffeelock aside (seriously, that term sets my teeth on edge to say, mechanics aside), the summary of those abilities is hardly something I'd consider to be a massive issue.

Not sleeping? No problem. Coffeelock isn't going to be a thing, or it is Warforged regardless. Disease Immunity? In all the years i've played D&d, disease has never been relevant due to the ease at which it gets cured, the exception being supernatural ones. And if it is appropriate for a diease to be caught, then it doesn't stop the warforged from having to deal with the liabilities the party has become. Doesn't need to eat - 5e is the wrong edition to make a survival game in, with its binary effects. And even if it were, trail rations are cheap enough so as to be an abstract, and 5th level clerics obviate it entirely. Unless the entire party is a warforged. In which case, you've made the job easier on the DM instead of having to track/trust the players on how well they can handle looking after their eating and drinking requirements.

And so we come to the only relevant ability: Poison Resist.

[GlenSmash!]

To be honest, it's a bit weird that Shifters get +1 Dex by default - since Wereboars and Wearbears only have 10 Dex themselves.

But, yeah, the bear-themed Shifters should probably be the ones getting the strength.

If anything, I'd expect the Werewolf Shifters to have the most dex alongside wererats. I mean, the 'cat' shifters are based on tigers - which are considerably larger and stronger than wolves.

Not a huge issue but it does seem a rather strange way to go about it. :smallconfused:

Yep. I plan on bringing up a lot of this when WotC asks for feedback on the article.

As it is right now If I were playing a "Bear" Shifter I would us Longstride over Beasthide.


Inflation strikes again.
Power Creep Item 1: Changeling.
Compared to base races in 5e, Changeling is very strong in terms of a spell-like ability provided to change appearance. It looks like a free alter self three times per day, more or less. Who else gets that for free? Mini doppelganger. To fit into 5e's balance mold, currently, this needs to be downscaled a lot.

Power Creep Item 2: Kalashtar
Two to many features. Dump Psychic damage resistance, and either dump dream resistance or dump telepathy. This is free class features from the Mystic ... but I love the thematic approach to this. They are mixing a class and a race here.

Power Creep Item 3: Shifter. This one almost makes it.

Dump the universal perception proficiency, or dump the unique proficiency for the shifter sub race. I'd dump the former. I love the way the latter flavors each kind of shifter. Bloated as is. Dumping perception for all IMO brings this one close, though I'd recommend limiting to transformation to a long rest, not short rest, to be more in line with Tiefling ... or dragonborn ... rather than being a mini Druid.

Power Creep Item 4: Warforged
• You have advantage on saving throws against being poisoned, and you have resistance to poison damage.
Dwarf.
• You are immune to disease.
Third level paladin
• You don’t need to eat, drink, or breathe. Monk.
• You don’t need to sleep Elf

pick one.

------------------

Thematically, I love them all.
Mechanically, this is like very bad homebrew.

I think you've made excellent points.

[Tetrasodium]

Yeah, I'd hope the Eberron afficionados to show Mr Baker a little respect.
I am of the understanding that he contributed to the DM Guild document as well.
How is aasimar OP?
I've been watching a bit of power creep and it might be nearly impossible to stop.
quote] The only reason i don't see more volo's at the table is the PHB+1 limit, and people want XGE spells/classes. They have explicitly said this. I have explicitly said this.
Neat.
Amen.

Question: what happens with a warforged meets a rust monster?

For our various Eberron fans: can you do the whole player base a favor?
Please take a good hard look at the UA and playtest it with a critical eye, rather than with a fanboi's heart due to love of the setting. Of all things I'd like to see not happen (like the loremaster mage) is power creep, even though it's been sneaking in here and there. I'd love to see the Eberron stuff fit in with the rest of the pile-of-features. I think this UA as a second try (they are up to third try on Mystic/psionics) is another good way to work through some of the holes in the cheese.



warforged is screwed badly by rust monsters in 3.5, they took damage (lots of it) & made the fighter in heavy metal armor look brave by comparison.

You are at least the third person I've seen asking for eberron fans to go easy on Keith for how eberron is walled off from the "shared" multiverse. I have to repeat again that myself & other eberron fans all seem delighted by the way it was done because it protects eberron from another dfuture 4e type loredump of $otherSetting just as much as the new version (https://twitter.com/JM13136849/status/1021690607104913412) of the 10 important facts about eberron bends over backwards to make clear that the first sentence of the first point does not invalidate the need to apply the remaining two or the next nine points


As to your closing argument, there are so many things wrong with it, but I'll start with this one. By not considering eberron in the core books they have made things difficult to do just that. The fact that you would feel obligated to make such a plea, you validate every one of their complaints about WotC doing that.

With regards to the "concerns" from everyone else... Lots of people have gone over why the AC is not an issue & I've posted about those more than once before. [list]
but I run a low/no magic settingwhere magic armor just doesn't exist Just as every race with a cantrip should not be balanced around the possability of someone wanting to bring them into a no magic setting, races can not all be designed around Darksun's limitations & even more magic free settings. If this is a concern to anyone , there is a simple siolution the gm can say "no".
Should Warforged have less ac and be subject to the past heal/repair damage problems along with DR or resistance? That goes back to my point about WotC developing the core rules while taking pains to ignore eberron, repair damage is not a spell. With the addition of spending hit dice to recover hp & widespread dispersal of spells like prayer of healing there is no reason for such a punishment & no way to justify it.
but but why not add the spell and make them living constructs? Again, WotC ignoring eberron causes problems. MM6 has this to say "The game includes the following monster types, which have no rules of their own." adding living construct would cause all kinds of problems when it comes to things that affect creatures & objects differently. More importantly, the AC itself is not a problem
but 5e has magic items as an optional rule Warforged shouldn't be designed around them. I'm going to quote this bit from WGtE 120 "An Armblade isn’t inherently considered to be a magic weapon for purposes of overcoming damage resistance. However, any sort of magical melee weapon could be created as an armblade, so you could acquire a Vicious Armblade or a Vorpal Armblade." & this sectiopmn from page 69 "Integrated Tool. Choose one tool you’re proficient with. This tool is integrated into your body and you double your proficiency bonus for any ability checks you make with it. You must have your hands free to use this integrated tool." Neither of those require magic items. Warforged does not need magic items to be warforged. Wotc was kind enough to release the eberron races in UA for people that don't buy WGtE to see them, but given the fact that so many of the core books were written in ways that take pains to avoid considering eberron without the context of WGtE. If only there were a way to handle that... say four or five years ago (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Editions_of_Dungeons_%26_Dragons#Dungeons_&_Dragons_5th_edition) perhaps?
but they don't say they count as wearing armor I'll agree that this is a valid concern that I find myself torn on. On the one hand, it is a reasonable & possibly problematic conflict. On the other hand, the tortle overrules the concern[/url]. The sky has not fallen & we are not besieged with threads about OP tortle barbarians & monks. Further that with the fact that warforged are defined by the fact that they can do things you can not as a meat bag (meat can too, it can procreate, enjoy food, etc). Lizardfolk scales also ddo not consider you to be wearing armor. The fact that the previous version worked by letting warforged wear armor robbed the race of a very important bit of flavor.
but what about the warforged juggernaught subtype being able to make d4+strength iron fist attack & monks martial arts? This ridiculous question has long been answered through wildshaped druids, tabaxi, etc. You can use one or the other, not both. The tabaxi cat's claws ability has almost the same wording but deals slashing damage & the sky has not fallen. Why is this even a concern? is bludgeoning damage so much better in ways I've never noticed? Even if that warforged subtype [I]could add an extra d4 to monk martial arts, I'm not sure that would even be an issue to worry about.





I just mean that there was originally a sub-race that boosted intelligence that would've been great for my idea for a wargored conjurer wizard who studies conjurations and constructs to better understand himself as he searches the world for the secret to how his kind were created to rejuvenate the species and save them from going extinct.

I was a little surprised & disappointed by the lack of it too, but an envoy with integrated artificer's tools. 2 +1's you can assign to different stats, +1 skill prof & +1 tool prof, +1 language, double proficiency bonus/expertise on your integrated tool. On top of the integrated protection, this would make a pretty awesome platform for a wizard/artificer type character. I don't remember the int based warforged ever getting statted out & honestly I'm not sure what it would look like but can't remember much there.

[PeteNutButter]

For those who feel the warforged is too strong, I wonder if this could be another race with a drawback. The orc race was a fail but the kobold is strong. Applying a cha penalty could work but what about giving warforged the old “half healing” effect from 3.5? Maybe just “half healing from hit dice expended.” I like the idea of warforged being harder to hurt (higher AC) but also harder to heal.

My point is all the construct features are important because they thematically fit, but if they are too strong perhaps a drawback could balance it.

[Tetrasodium]

A little bothered that Wildhunt were the only shifters not to have any suggested animal templates.

Wildhunt shifters are born from any creature that tracks its prey. both in WGtE & the UA. Shifters do not breed true. Two $type shifters could give birth to a kid that is $secondType without raised eyebrows worthy of bringing concerns of paternity to house Jorasco or something.

[LudicSavant]

Power Creep Item 4: Warforged
• You have advantage on saving throws against being poisoned, and you have resistance to poison damage.
Dwarf.
• You are immune to disease.
Third level paladin
• You don’t need to eat, drink, or breathe. Monk.
• You don’t need to sleep Elf

pick one.

You know who doesn't "pick one"? Both of the races you just named. Dwarves don't just have poison resistance. Elves don't just get to go without sleep.

[GlenSmash!]

Wildhunt shifters are born from any creature that tracks its prey. both in WGtE & the UA. Shifters do not breed true. Two $type shifters could give birth to a kid that is $secondType without raised eyebrows worthy of bringing concerns of paternity to house Jorasco or something.

In the fluff text the Shifters take on a sort of animal "patron" or maybe "Guide" or "Totem" might be a better word, regardless of Parentage.

Giving an example of a tracking animal would still be useful.

[Tetrasodium]

For those who feel the warforged is too strong, I wonder if this could be another race with a drawback. The orc race was a fail but the kobold is strong. Applying a cha penalty could work but what about giving warforged the old “half healing” effect from 3.5? Maybe just “half healing from hit dice expended.” I like the idea of warforged being harder to hurt (higher AC) but also harder to heal.

My point is all the construct features are important because they thematically fit, but if they are too strong perhaps a drawback could balance it.


They are only "too strong" in the context of "what if I let one in my no magic campaign?" or "what if I let one in my post apocalyptic darksun-type campaign where armor & weapons are very sub par as a defining feature of the setting?" Warforged can not procreate, they either came from eberron or some other group/individual made them in your setting if you are allowing them.

[GlenSmash!]

You know who doesn't "pick one"? Both of the races you just named. Dwarves don't just have poison resistance. Elves don'tjust get to go without sleep.

Warforged also don't Just have those abilities either. They get quite a bit else.

[LudicSavant]

Warforged also don't Just have those abilities either. They get quite a bit else.

Indeed they do, but that's no defense of Korvin's argument. If warforged are overtuned, it's not because they didn't "pick one." I've seen a number of race analyses that sort of just amount to counting features and saying that there are "too many." This isn't a very good argument because it's entirely possible to have a lot of features and still not be very good, and vice versa. For example, Aarakocra and Variant Humans have a pretty short feature list, and are generally recognized as strong options.

To put it another way, folks will often say things such as "if you make a race with more than +3 total ASI, it's too much, because other races usually have +3 total ASI." Except non-variant humans have +6, and are generally considered fairly weak. By contrast, you could have the exact same number of ASI (+6) arranged in a different manner (like "+6 to one stat") and it would be overpowered. The arrangement matters. Simply counting is not good enough.

If you wanted to make a good argument for power creep, you'd compare a race package overall to one of the better existing races for a given job, competing for the same job, and show that the old contender is obsolete.

[Tetrasodium]

In the fluff text the Shifters take on a sort of animal "patron" or maybe "Guide" or "Totem" might be a better word, regardless of Parentage.

Giving an example of a tracking animal would still be useful.

How about a wolf, lion, many rodents, or even this cutie (https://twitter.com/JM13136849/status/1021826302242902017)? Point being that it is not always the same. Here (https://manifest.zone/08-changelings-and-shifters/) is a great podcast on them. :D

[Sigreid]

A bit off topic but now I kind of want to play a "warforged" that is actually operated by a tiney creature using pedals and levers attached to a complicated system of gears and pullies.

[GlenSmash!]

How about a wolf, lion, many rodents, or even this cutie (https://twitter.com/JM13136849/status/1021826302242902017)? Point being that it is not always the same. Here (https://manifest.zone/08-changelings-and-shifters/) is a great podcast on them. :D

Of course it's not always the same.

Listing examples like you just did would still be helpful.


Beasthide shifters are typically tied to the bear
or the boar, but any creature known for its
toughness could apply.


Many
longtooth shifters have canine traits that become
more pronounced as they shift, but they might
instead draw on tigers, hyenas, or other
predators.


Typically feline in nature...

A single sentence of "Typically tied to a predator that specializes in hunting or tracking prey" would cover it even.

[LudicSavant]

You know what I would have liked to see? A halfling variant or subrace for the Talenta Plains. They gave us one for the Valenar elves, which is cool, but it seems like the concept of halfling Barbarians is in greater need of mechanical facilitation in 5e.

[Tetrasodium]

Of course it's not always the same.

Listing examples like you just did would still be helpful.


A single sentence of "Typically tied to a predator that specializes in hunting or tracking prey" would cover it even.
I'd argue that it could typecast them as well. Is " any creature that tracks its prey" really ambiguous to anyone on earth reading it or are you just splitting hairs? How would it "be helpful"?

[LudicSavant]

I'd argue that it could typecast them as well. Is " any creature that tracks its prey" really ambiguous to anyone on earth reading it or are you just splitting hairs? How would it "be helpful"?

I agree, both with respect to typecasting and it being pretty unambiguous.

[Waazraath]

Inflation strikes again.
Power Creep Item 1: Changeling.
Compared to base races in 5e, Changeling is very strong in terms of a spell-like ability provided to change appearance. It looks like a free alter self three times per day, more or less. Who else gets that for free?

Away from books, but doesn't the Firbolg get something that is a lot like this? 3/day disguise self, with some tweaks. And it has lots of other racial features as well.


Further, I'm really surprised I see the Tiefling mentioned here as the uber-Cha race. Even in the PHB, I always considered Half-Elf much stronger. With variant human, Aasimar, Yuan-Ti all in the game, I'd hardly call the tiefling over-powered. Nor do I see this Changeling in that way.

[Shining Wrath]

Last time I played a warforged he was terrified of the very idea of a Rust Monster, and made a priority out of buying the 3.5 armor enhancement that made armor immune to rust (Blueshine).

[Tetrasodium]

You know what I would have liked to see? A halfling variant or subrace for the Talenta Plains. They gave us one for the Valenar elves, which is cool, but it seems like the concept of halfling Barbarians is in greater need of mechanical facilitation in 5e.

That would be cool, maybe just give them the ability to wield heavy weapons while mounted or something similar. It does have a clawfoot statted though, but I think it's just a raptor's stats or something that looks very similar.

[LudicSavant]

Away from books, but doesn't the Firbolg get something that is a lot like this? 3/day disguise self, with some tweaks. And it has lots of other racial features as well. Right.

Firbolgs have:
- +2 Wis/+1 Str, a rather unique set.
- Powerful Build (one size larger for carrying capacity / lifting ability)
- At-will ability to communicate with beasts.
- At-will ability to communicate with plants.
- Get at-will Advantage on all Charisma checks to influence beasts.
- Get at-will Advantage on all Charisma checks to influence plants.
- Can turn Invisible as a bonus action, 1/Short Rest (good for giving themselves Advantage, disengaging, and the like).
- Get two bonus language (Elvish and Giant).
- Can cast Detect Magic 1/Short Rest.
- Can cast Disguise Self 1/Short Rest, with the added ability to change size when doing so. Since the given DMG assumption is 2 short rests / average adventuring day, that works out to about 3/day just as you say.

And they're still generally considered a fairly underwhelming race even for their main job (Clerics and Druids) with all of that, rated low even on Cleric guides such as this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?374604-The-Devout-and-the-Dead-a-guide-to-Clerics).

[JoeJ]

It's a race that has souls for reasons that are mysterious in-universe, it's pretty easy to justify a lot.

Okay. So how does that give an inherited ability to a creature with no parents? Can a warforged character also have the noble background?

[LudicSavant]

That would be cool, maybe just give them the ability to wield heavy weapons while mounted or something similar.

I think to really be competitively viable with heavy weapons they'd need to have more going for them than simply not getting Disadvantage with them. But I'd definitely like to see them having the ability to use heavy weapons.


That would be cool, maybe just give them the ability to wield heavy weapons while mounted or something similar. It does have a clawfoot statted though, but I think it's just a raptor's stats or something that looks very similar.

It's somewhere between the Volo's velociraptor and the MM deinonychus.

[Tetrasodium]

Right.

Firbolgs have:
- +2 Wis/+1 Str, a rather unique set.
- Powerful Build (one size larger for carrying capacity / lifting ability)
- At-will ability to communicate with beasts.
- At-will ability to communicate with plants.
- Get at-will Advantage on all Charisma checks to influence beasts.
- Get at-will Advantage on all Charisma checks to influence plants.
- Can turn Invisible as a bonus action, 1/Short Rest (good for giving themselves Advantage, disengaging, and the like).
- Get two bonus language (Elvish and Giant).
- Can cast Detect Magic 1/Short Rest.
- Can cast Disguise Self 1/Short Rest, with the added ability to change size when doing so. Since the given DMG assumption is 2 short rests / average adventuring day, that works out to about 3/day just as you say.

And they're still generally considered a fairly "meh" race even for Clerics and Druids with all of that, rated low even on Cleric guides such as this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?374604-The-Devout-and-the-Dead-a-guide-to-Clerics).



I played a pretty awesome grave cleric devoted to The Sex up to level 10 or so in a ravenloft campaign who just kept telling everyone she was an orc (the GM knew otherwise & agreed ahead of time but had forgotten by the time we were fighting our way into castle ravenloft). The shock & dropped jaws was awesome when she used the invisible thing for the first time after a bunch of creatures ran up intending to pound the spirit guardians cleric going all out for a change. That writeup drastically undervalues the +1 str combined with powerful build. that's an extra point I could put somewhere else in poiunt buy & still have 10 str combined with a carry/lift/push/pull/drag that put her on par with some of the stronger party members. Combined with 20 wisdom & powerful cantrip or whatever it is, it was a great combo. I have a player with a firbolg cleric in one of my games who has used the speak with animals to nice effeft a few times as well

[CharonsHelper]

I think to really be competitively viable with heavy weapons they'd need to have more going for them than simply not getting Disadvantage with them. But I'd definitely like to see them having the ability to use heavy weapons.

I'm not sure that I'd want them to be able to use actual heavy weapons, but it'd be cool if they could finesse Versatile weapons when wielding them two-handed or some such. (just spit-balling)

That way they could get the two-handed vibe while still taking advantage of being a halfling.

[Sception]

I don't have a problem with these races from a balance perspective. Vuman, half elf, high elf... the core races i thought were strong are still best for the characters i was using them for. The only ability that bugs me is the warforged armor, which feels too strong in item-light games, but actually a detriment in plentiful item games. That and the fact that you can change it on a daily basis completely undercuts the feel of the armor being your literal body anyway.

[LudicSavant]

it'd be cool if they could finesse Versatile weapons when wielding them two-handed or some such. (just spit-balling) On its own that'd be pretty useless for Barbarians. In fact using this "feature" would be pretty much just a downgrade from using a rapier and shield.


I'm not sure that I'd want them to be able to use actual heavy weapons

Why not?

Worth noting that the iconic weaponry for Talenta barbarians are two-handed polearms, big reach-scythes, two-handed curved swords, and boomerangs.

As such, Talenta halflings should totally be legitimately good as Barbarians with two-handed weapons.

[ZorroGames]

I'd play at that table.

Roger that!

[Zanthy1]

People are saying the AC gets out of hand, but I notice many are including the defensive fighting style as one of the key elements bumping that. Warforged cannot benefit from this fighting style, because to do so they need to be wearing armor, which warforged cannot do. Also warforged cannot wear magic items such as boots or gauntlets (though rings and necklaces should present no problem).

[Kadesh]

Okay. So how does that give an inherited ability to a creature with no parents? Can a warforged character also have the noble background?

Yes. Your only limitation is your imagination in that regard.


On its own that'd be pretty useless for Barbarians.



Why not?

Worth noting that the iconic weaponry for Talenta barbarians are two-handed polearms, big reach-scythes, two-handed curved swords, and boomerangs.

As such, Talenta halflings should totally be legitimately good as Barbarians with two-handed weapons.

Simple: Talenta Hallings get +1 Str, Powerful build, and the ability to wield Heavy Weapons without issue when they are wearing no or light armour and unencumbered.

Some races get flight with that restriction. Wielding heavy weapons for a specific subrace with a cultural skill to do so seems fitting with existing mechanics, while disading from typical heavy armour paladin/fighter expectation.

[Tetrasodium]

Okay. So how does that give an inherited ability to a creature with no parents? Can a warforged character also have the noble background?

in theory yes and yes.

The background question is easier so I will start there. Warforged were made for specific (very wealthy) customers with specialized needs in many cases. Bukwark (https://eberrononline.obsidianportal.com/characters/bulwark-1) was one of them & there are rumors about him being The Lord of Blades. I'm linking to someone's obsidian portal page because that feels very similar to what was written in whatever eberron book brought it up & I'm too lazy to track down the exact quote. In WGtE there are numerous examples of backgrounds that are twisted to fit different regions & sometimes races. Being created to serve a noble, wealthy merchant, or some (semi)important dragonmarked heir could easily result in the benefits of the noble background after the treaty of thronehold came around & someone told the appliance known as the warforged $name "you are free, go do what you want & make a life for yourself". In the original eberron books it talks about things like entire platoons being assrembled in whatever field was nearby just standing there for weeks/months awaiting orders after being told they were discharged & free to do what they wanted.

Regarding the sorcer bloodline question. You ignored my answer the last time as far as I can tell. Eberron has The Dragons (a civilization of all the dragons with their own continent) alongside the dragon above/below & umm.. the dragon who binds(?) (Siberyis/Khyber/eberron) who created the world, all life, & everything in it. Plus The Draconic Prophecy. Add to that manifest zones where the planes bleed into the prime material plane & have an effect on that area (ie the things you were trying to stop in PotA happen naturally at regular intervals in defined areas in eberron & are mined/harvested for resources when it does). Don't forget that it could have been the result of a one off experiment or late model Cannith started producing just before the Treaty of Thronehold made them take the creaytion forge apart.
There are any number of ways a warforged could have a sorcerous origin & one of the important defining features of eberron is that not everything is defined by design. I linked to a blog post about sorcerers in eberron by keith baker earlier, you might want to read it (http://keith-baker.com/sorcerers-2/) this time as it answers a lot of your questions enough to at least let you make more informed ones after the brief introduction about verbal/material/somatic components.

[GlenSmash!]

I'd argue that it could typecast them as well. Is " any creature that tracks its prey" really ambiguous to anyone on earth reading it or are you just splitting hairs? How would it "be helpful"?


I agree, both with respect to typecasting and it being pretty unambiguous.

Let me ask then: do either of you find the Beasthide text calling out Bears and Boars, but also any animal that might have a tough hide typcasting?

Would you prefer the removal of the Bear and Boar from that text and just have it be more generic?

[Tetrasodium]

On its own that'd be pretty useless for Barbarians. In fact using this "feature" would be pretty much just a downgrade from using a rapier and shield.



Why not?

Worth noting that the iconic weaponry for Talenta barbarians are two-handed polearms, big reach-scythes, two-handed curved swords, and boomerangs.

As such, Talenta halflings should totally be legitimately good as Barbarians with two-handed weapons.

Agreed on all points and wonder the same. I have a talenta halfling riding a raptor or something using heavy weapons without penalty while mounted playing in one of my games & it's not a problem at all. He picked up mobile & zips around being awesome. I have no idea what subtype they took but think it might have been the +con one?

[Shining Wrath]

Worth noting in an Eberron campaign is that the Dragonmarks are now variant races / subraces, and Warforged don't get any. And I think the Dragonmarks are pretty solid choices as far as races go. The comparison of Warforged to existing races also needs to compare them to, e.g., humans with the mark of Finding who get Darkvision.

[Tetrasodium]

Let me ask then: do either of you find the Beasthide text calling out Bears and Boars, but also any animal that might have a tough hide typcasting?

Would you prefer the removal of the Bear and Boar from that text and just have it be more generic?

I honestly don't care either way because they are such wildly different ends of the spectrum. my concern is more "really what" would be gained by adding it to wildhunt?

[Tetrasodium]

Worth noting in an Eberron campaign is that the Dragonmarks are now variant races / subraces, and Warforged don't get any. And I think the Dragonmarks are pretty solid choices as far as races go. The comparison of Warforged to existing races also needs to compare them to, e.g., humans with the mark of Finding who get Darkvision.


Someone else tried to suggest this earlier. Anyone can develop an aberrant mark


Q:And what if aberrant marks were starting to appear on shifters, changelings or goblinoid? Or maybe on warfargeds? I think the idea of goblinoids and changelings opens to a lot of campaings.

A: As I said in a previous comment, one of my novels includes an aberrant warforged and my favorite Eberron PC (as a player) was a dragonborn with an aberrant mark, so I’m happy to explore such ideas. I am fine with the idea that the marks are COMMONLY found on the dragonmarked races, but I’m happy to explore other developments.

-source (http://keith-baker.com/eberron-flashback-aberrant-dragonmarks/)

I added Q: & A: for clarity. True marks are a very different beast though so you are right to some degree barring gm saying ok

[GlenSmash!]

I honestly don't care either way because they are such wildly different ends of the spectrum. my concern is more "really what" would be gained by adding it to wildhunt?

For me?

Consistency.

But that certainly may not be of value to anyone else. Maybe Backlash3906 since they brought it up in the first place.

[LudicSavant]

I don't have a problem with these races from a balance perspective. Vuman, half elf, high elf... the core races i thought were strong are still best for the characters i was using them for. The only ability that bugs me is the warforged armor, which feels too strong in item-light games, but actually a detriment in plentiful item games. That and the fact that you can change it on a daily basis completely undercuts the feel of the armor being your literal body anyway.

I agree. The likes of Changelings and Shifters seem unlikely to be putting the old heavy hitters out of work.

[NaughtyTiger]

In other words, for the races to be power creep, they'd have to be better than Hill Dwarves, Variant Humans, Variant Half-Elves, Feral Tieflings, Yuan-Ti, and the like.
...
if you release a spell that is literally Witch Bolt except dealing +1 damage, it's still not power creep, even though it is flatly superior to Witch Bolt, because Witch Bolt wasn't on the curve in the first place.


I think I agree with this statement.
However, the new races don't have to be better than ALL the previous races. Just like all new spells don't have to be better than all of the PHB spells to demo power creep (tensors armor doesn't negate the OPness of dragon's breath, healing spirit)

I do belive that SC races are a little better
Tiefling megaphone + 2 good 1/day spells. vs Abyssal Tieflings 1 combat cantrip + 2 good 1/day spells. strictly better
Drow half elf (magic no disadvantage) is better than drow.

I do believe that most of the Volo races are strictly better (except orc).
The races got more powerful version of abilities than baseline races, less fluff.
Wood elf +5ft vs tabaxi 2x speed/climbing

ignore yuan-ti. just no.

I do believe that the Eberron races are better than baseline.
lizardfolk (1d6 attack - at will) vs longtooth shifter (1d6 as bonus action - at will)
lizardfolk (+5 conditional temp HP) vs longtooth shifter (+25 guaranteed temp HP)
lizardfolk (make arrows from dead) vs longtooth shifter (you don't look/act like a freak)

is it power creep?
if the phb tiefling or lizardfolk were below the curve, then no.
but phb tiefling is above the curve.

[LudicSavant]

I do believe that most of the Volo races are strictly better (except orc).

I'm not convinced of this. I still see optimizers going for VHumans, Hill Dwarves, Half-Elves, High Elves, and so forth instead of Volo's races.

[Shining Wrath]

Someone else tried to suggest this earlier. Anyone can develop an aberrant mark


I added Q: & A: for clarity. True marks are a very different beast though so you are right to some degree barring gm saying ok

Aberrant dragonmarks are a feat, not a character creation subrace / variant race. A warforged couldn't have one before level 4, and only at the cost of an ASI. Also,


All of these factors have led to the general superstition that people with aberrant dragonmarks are dangerous, that their marks drive them crazy or turn them into sociopaths. These are things that can happen; people have a right to be afraid.


and


The dragonmarked houses united in an inquisition called The War of the Mark. Some say that this was a persecution of innocents; but most feared the aberrants and stood by as the houses
hunted them down. Ever since the War of the Mark, aberrant dragonmarks have been few in number and relatively weak.


A DM would not be out of line, at all, to say that any person with an aberrant dragonmark would be in danger if they used it publicly, and that any member of one of the Houses would not be willing to keep company with an aberrant mark carrier except under the most unusual circumstances. A warforged with an aberrant mark would be doubly repugnant to society. So while it's not RAW like it was in the 3.5 rules, it's certainly arguable that aberrant dragonmarks mean that the Houses want you dead. You're not only dangerous to life and limb, you're dangerous to their control of the world. Now, a DM who wanted aberrant dragonmarks could weaken this penalty; I could even see a fun campaign where everyone in the party was an aberrant marked warforged. But the clear reading of the text is that an aberrant dragonmark makes you an outcast to a MUCH greater degree than being a warforged; it's more akin to playing a monstrous character like a bugbear in most campaigns.

[ZorroGames]

Maybe because I missed/chose to miss late AD&D/2nd through 4.0 and never played Spelljammer, Dark Sun or Ebberon (aka to my wife as Harry Potter with more diversity) I do not understand why something has to be “core” and why it would be Bad to have stand alone variants? Magic Trains and Planes just seem off in a high fantasy setting was would certain high fantasy elements in a Napoleonic Fantasy and a in a magic technology world.

[Kadesh]

I think I agree with this statement.
However, the new races don't have to be better than ALL the previous races. Just like all new spells don't have to be better than all of the PHB spells to demo power creep (tensors armor doesn't negate the OPness of dragon's breath, healing spirit)
*Here are a load of spells you'll never use and thus have no reason to ever buy the book* is a fantastic tagline for a business product.


I do believe that most of the Volo races are strictly better (except orc).
The races got more powerful version of abilities than baseline races, less fluff.
Wood elf +5ft vs tabaxi 2x speed/climbing
Tiefling megaphone + 2 good 1/day spells. vs Abyssal Tieflings 1 combat cantrip + 2 good 1/day spells. strictly better
ignore yuan-ti. just no.
Wood Elves still get access to Bladesinger (and Melee Cantrips in AL). Abyssal tiefling? Isn't that from That Old Black Magic and thus UA? Or do you mean that Mordenkainens gives you additional options over that of any other tiefling? What about Winged? Or feral for a better stat array on certain classes? And yuan ti. Yes, I can imagine how well the diplomacy goes when you're a monstrous snake creature with a reputation for savagery and brutality. Anything that is other than 'attack on site' or 'oh, that might be a Naga if we're in the Shinomen Forest in Rokugan' is very generous of the DM.

o.O


I do believe that the Eberron races are better than baseline.
lizardfolk (1d6 attack - at will) vs longtooth shifter (1d6 as bonus action - at will)
lizardfolk (+5 conditional temp HP) vs longtooth shifter (+25 guaranteed temp HP)
lizardfolk (make arrows from dead) vs longtooth shifter (you don't look/act like a freak)
I'm not sure I ever saw Lizardmen taken anyway because of how badly they sucked, especially when combined with the limitations on other content they could be taken with due to being in Volos in AL games.

[NaughtyTiger]

I'm not convinced of this. I still see optimizers going for VHumans, Hill Dwarves, Half-Elves, High Elves, and so forth instead of Volo's races.

Is that true if you remove the PHB+1?

[NaughtyTiger]

*Here are a load of spells you'll never use and thus have no reason to ever buy the book* is a fantastic tagline for a business product.


Wood Elves still get access to Bladesinger (and Melee Cantrips in AL). Abyssal tiefling? Isn't that from That Old Black Magic and thus UA? Or do you mean that Mordenkainens gives you additional options over that of any other tiefling? What about Winged? Or feral for a better stat array on certain classes? And yuan ti. Yes, I can imagine how well the diplomacy goes when you're a monstrous snake creature with a reputation for savagery and brutality. Anything that is other than 'attack on site' or 'oh, that might be a Naga if we're in the Shinomen Forest in Rokugan' is very generous of the DM.

o.O


I'm not sure I ever saw Lizardmen taken anyway because of how badly they sucked, especially when combined with the limitations on other content they could be taken with due to being in Volos in AL games.

Sword Coast adventurers guide gave tielfing options... (Mordakains reprinted them)

So to summarize?
new spells have to be better than baseline to sell product (i agree)
new tiefling options are strictly better than baseline (i agree)

elves as a race are on par cuz they can access certain restricted classes.
Lizardfolk are inferior because PHB+1
yuan-ti are inferior because they can't negotiate for peace; despite the fact that they look darn close to dragonblood sorcerers

[ZorroGames]

https://media.wizards.com/2018/dnd/downloads/723UA_EberronRaces7232018.pdf

Going to need to digest the contents more thoroughly before commenting further.

[PeteNutButter]

*Here are a load of spells you'll never use and thus have no reason to ever buy the book* is a fantastic tagline for a business product.


Wood Elves still get access to Bladesinger (and Melee Cantrips in AL). Abyssal tiefling? Isn't that from That Old Black Magic and thus UA? Or do you mean that Mordenkainens gives you additional options over that of any other tiefling? What about Winged? Or feral for a better stat array on certain classes? And yuan ti. Yes, I can imagine how well the diplomacy goes when you're a monstrous snake creature with a reputation for savagery and brutality. Anything that is other than 'attack on site' or 'oh, that might be a Naga if we're in the Shinomen Forest in Rokugan' is very generous of the DM.

o.O


I'm not sure I ever saw Lizardmen taken anyway because of how badly they sucked, especially when combined with the limitations on other content they could be taken with due to being in Volos in AL games.

Oh the lizardman. A strength based unarmed strike without a strength bonus; A dex based natural armor without a dex bonus. If you want to bite with dex you take monk, but then what's the point of having scales... :smallfrown:

I've been thinking about making a race guide for a while... It seems a lot of people aren't familiar with what's optimal.

Here's the short hand: Flying Races > VHuman and Half Elf > the rest

[LudicSavant]

Is that true if you remove the PHB+1?

Yes. I wasn't assuming PHB+1 or any other AL rules in the first place.

[JoeJ]

in theory yes and yes.

The background question is easier so I will start there. Warforged were made for specific (very wealthy) customers with specialized needs in many cases. Bukwark (https://eberrononline.obsidianportal.com/characters/bulwark-1) was one of them & there are rumors about him being The Lord of Blades. I'm linking to someone's obsidian portal page because that feels very similar to what was written in whatever eberron book brought it up & I'm too lazy to track down the exact quote. In WGtE there are numerous examples of backgrounds that are twisted to fit different regions & sometimes races. Being created to serve a noble, wealthy merchant, or some (semi)important dragonmarked heir could easily result in the benefits of the noble background after the treaty of thronehold came around & someone told the appliance known as the warforged $name "you are free, go do what you want & make a life for yourself". In the original eberron books it talks about things like entire platoons being assrembled in whatever field was nearby just standing there for weeks/months awaiting orders after being told they were discharged & free to do what they wanted.

Regarding the sorcer bloodline question. You ignored my answer the last time as far as I can tell. Eberron has The Dragons (a civilization of all the dragons with their own continent) alongside the dragon above/below & umm.. the dragon who binds(?) (Siberyis/Khyber/eberron) who created the world, all life, & everything in it. Plus The Draconic Prophecy. Add to that manifest zones where the planes bleed into the prime material plane & have an effect on that area (ie the things you were trying to stop in PotA happen naturally at regular intervals in defined areas in eberron & are mined/harvested for resources when it does). Don't forget that it could have been the result of a one off experiment or late model Cannith started producing just before the Treaty of Thronehold made them take the creaytion forge apart.
There are any number of ways a warforged could have a sorcerous origin & one of the important defining features of eberron is that not everything is defined by design. I linked to a blog post about sorcerers in eberron by keith baker earlier, you might want to read it (http://keith-baker.com/sorcerers-2/) this time as it answers a lot of your questions enough to at least let you make more informed ones after the brief introduction about verbal/material/somatic components.

So, trying to parse a very long explanation, it sounds like some warforged who were originally purchased by nobles are now treated as nobles themselves. Is that right? I didn't realize there had been that big a change in attitude, from property to effectively noble, since the end of the Last War.

Also, that the creators knew how to produce warforged with the same magical powers that a sorcerer would manifest? That sound possible I guess, but if they could do that, wouldn't they come out of the factory fully-developed? That is, shouldn't they already have as many sorcerer levels as they could possibly manifest? (Granted, that would not be very compatible with the class advancement that is the core of D&D, so maybe that part just needs to be handwaved in order to have the race be playable.)



Yes. Your only limitation is your imagination in that regard.

This is a very unhelpful comment. Not all of us are well versed in Eberron lore, so it would have been much better had you instead presented some of the imaginative ideas that are apparently obvious to you.

[Kadesh]

Sword Coast adventurers guide gave tielfing options... (Mordakains reprinted them)

So to summarize?
new spells have to be better than baseline to sell product (i agree)
new tiefling options are strictly better than baseline (i agree)

elves as a race are on par cuz they can access certain restricted classes.
Lizardfolk are inferior because PHB+1
yuan-ti are inferior because they can't negotiate for peace; despite the fact that they look darn close to dragonblood sorcerers

Winged Tieflings are in MToF? What page, i missed that sorry.

And no, yuan ti don't suck diplomacy because they're remotely similar to dragonblood sorcerers, yuan ti look like yuan ti, and there are reputations for yuan ti acting like compete pricks in general, as opposed to dragonbmood sorcerers (of which there are fewer (? Less?) of. If anything I'd say that that a Dragonblood Sorcerer of an appropriate colour is at risk of being attacked by accident due to how they appear. They are extremely alien, as much as Dragonborn are, and I've definitely ruled against parties when they try to have a diplomatic dragonborn in intense situations with other humanoids. Just because they are a Pc doesn't give players any special immunity to racism against their race. Drizzt is still a Drow, and unless people recognise him as Drizzt, he is still going to get pinged as a Drow and possibly attacked by someone wanting to do good.

And its not as though a Yuan Ti is any more resilient or damaging than another race outside of magic resist. Dwarves get Medium armour training or additional hp, but Yuan Ti are just as prone to getting chopped in the face: hell, they don't get Dex or Con boosts even, nor special dispensation to wear armour outside of their class based benefits. Hit it with a bog stick and you'll find a dwarf more resilient than a yuanti.

So, what's your complaint, you don't like spending money for new worthwhile content? If that's the case, rock on with your PHB, and don't complain aboit people who do, the company who spend a lot of money and time creating them.

When was the last time you saw a 4E monk or a Purple Dragon Knight getting praisdd for how well its done?

I've had to homebrew magic items for my Sea Storm Herald (Rage Bonus to DC, Rage Bonus Damage is always considered Lightning Damage, allied creatures in aura ignores resistance to Lightning, and can use Reaction when taking Lightning Damage for all allies in aura to become Immune until start of Barbarian's next go). The 4E monk ran when I first started gains bonus Temp HP whenever equal to their Ki Expenditure+Prof mod whenever they cast Elemental Spells relatingnto Stone (chosen element) and could create new Magical Tattoos with an appropriate Ki Cost using new Xanathars spells. Neither had a problem with the Hexblade or Shadow Sorcerer who basically ran the show before they get a few additional boosts.

You can always balance it as a DM, whether in terms of what they fjght (congrats on poison immunity, you're fighting against Remorhaz and Frost Giants in the Frostfell), or with appropriate gear to other members of the party in home games.

Getting hung up on a race being 'immune to disease, sleep, Exhaustion, need to eat and poison resist' and calling ribbons like this broken deserves being laughed out.
This is a very unhelpful comment. Not all of us are well versed in Eberron lore, so it would have been much better had you instead presented some of the imaginative ideas that are apparently obvious to you.

You're playing a game of make believe, but you're having trouble working out how a robot can be considered a 'Noble'? Ever seen iRobot? Sonny can be considered a 'Noble' among his 'people' for the awakening of their conciousness.

You're wondering how a Robot can get magic bloodline based abilities? That lubricant cant ain't lubricant bro. It's Dragonblood/Kirin Blood/Holy Water blessed by the High Priest of Pelor/liquid shadow distilled from a Shadar Kai. Its a bit grimdark/shelley-esque, but hey, my background to RPGs came from warhammer sl that's my go to ease of concept.

What about Warlocks and selling their souls? Ever seen Darksiders 2: the constructs get corrupted whether theu wish for it or not. Just because the default fluff is someone wanting power, there nothing to stop a powerful bejng simply giving a creature that power.

You don't need to know Eberron to learn that, and Eberron Sourcebook might explain it for you when that time comes, but to say you have no imagination and can't conceptualize why something might be able to occur is pretty hollow. I don't feel like an overly creative person or especially gifted, by i've gradually been exposed to literally thousands of inspirational sources which I can use to draw upon.

[LudicSavant]

Adding to what others have said about the Lizardfolk, let me give you a specific example, NaughtyTiger.


I do believe that most of the Volo races are strictly better (except orc).
The races got more powerful version of abilities than baseline races, less fluff.
Wood elf +5ft vs tabaxi 2x speed/climbing

I wouldn't have referenced Wood Elves as a top shelf racial pick, but even so Wood Elves are not strictly inferior to Tabaxi. That double movement speed isn't always on, you have to stand still for a round before you can use it again. On top of that the Tabaxi loses out on some of the elven features, such as resistance to Charms.

Listing only the differences between the races (e.g. not including that they both get Darkvision and Perception proficiency and such), here's what they get compared to each other:

Wood Elf features that Tabaxi don't get:
- +1 Wisdom
- Mask of the Wild
- +5 base speed, always on (enough to kite any melee threats with 30 speed or less all day)
- Trance (only need to rest 4 hours and stay semi-conscious when you do)
- Sleep immunity
- Advantage on saving throws against Charms (note this isn't just resistance to Charm Person, it's resistance to dominate, harpy songs, and various other nasty things that can really ruin your day).
- Elf weapon proficiencies (basically going to be +1 average damage on a melee attack if you're playing a dex-based build with only Simple weapon proficiency, which there's a fair chance you are)

Tabax features that Wood Elves don't get:
- +1 Cha
- Double speed for one round, then you have to be immobile for a round before you can use it again.
- Stealth proficiency
- Natural weapon ribbon (you're Dex-based, why would you care about having a 1d4+strength unarmed strike?)
- 20ft Climb speed (vs a Wood Elf covering 17 feet when climbing according to PHB182 rules).

Right from the get go, they have different stat mods that make them better at different builds. Wisdom is a better "general purpose" stat, but Cha will be desirable for Warlocks, Sorcerers, Bards, and Dex-based Paladins.

From there, you've got some tradeoffs. Tabaxi get Stealth proficiency instead of Mask of the Wild. Tabaxi get a burst speed instead of an always on speed bonus. And then Tabaxi get a 20 foot climb speed and an almost completely useless natural attack, while Wood Elves get weapon proficiencies, charm resistance (probably one of the best elf abilities), sleep immunity, and trance.

[JoeJ]

You're playing a game of make believe, but you're having trouble working out how a robot can be considered a 'Noble'? Ever seen iRobot? Sonny can be considered a 'Noble' among his 'people' for the awakening of their conciousness.

No, I'm having trouble working out how a robot gets considered a noble by the very same people who considered it to be property just two years earlier.


You don't need to know Eberron to learn that, and Eberron Sourcebook might explain it for you when that time comes, but to say you have no imagination and can't conceptualize why something might be able to occur is pretty hollow. I don't feel like an overly creative person or especially gifted, by i've gradually been exposed to literally thousands of inspirational sources which I can use to draw upon.

I see. And you somehow know which of those thousands of inspirational sources can be made to fit within established Eberron continuity and which ones can't.

And sorry, but I don't get the Darksiders 2 reference. Was that a movie? I don't remember ever hearing about a Darksiders 1.

[Kadesh]

No, I'm having trouble working out how a robot gets considered a noble by the very same people who considered it to be property just two years earlier.
The proble is the background automatically assumes it is ever society. A noble Kobold is unlikely to be considered a noble in a Drow Society. A drow Matron Mother is basically the highest society, but other than by force and sheer intimidation, a Drow Matron is unlikely to be considered nobility by a tribe of Orcs being ruled by a Tanarukk. Humans might recognise a king of another city to be a noble, but if they're in a theological war with them, i don't think the context of seeing you within the same social sphere is going to wash.

The Robots considered Sonny to be a Noble (by another name). They might consider Del Spooner to be noble, despite his actual background as City Watch. This is where the concept of backgrounds fails, less than it means that a Robot cannot be noble.

I'm sure that many Warforged consider the Bladelord to be a Noble, but I doubt he himself sees himself as that, and i doubt that he'll be welcome at a House Cannith get together.


I see. And you somehow know which of those thousands of inspirational sources can be made to fit within established Eberron continuity and which ones can't.
{scrubbed}

Does that succinct your argument enough? If you're having trouble in imagining how a creation of magitech gets handwaiviumed into existence and having a soul, and being able to cast spells, have a personality, and be able to do XYZ, then I'm afraid I'm not prepared to do more than sit down and tell you Elves aren't real either.

[Mellack]

JoeJ, regarding a warforged being a sorcerer, isn't that simple to write off as having to do with they soul? I don't think it is defined where those souls come from. They can be recycled or just spontaneously created, and they are all different. That may give some the powers that PC's have to make them special.

As to the noble background, if a warforged were from a noble family it would be reasonable to think they may have a connection to that family, just as a third son might. The same reason would make people want to be respectful towards them. They would not want the warforged going back to his old home and speaking about how badly he was treated by (shopkeeper/minor official/peasant). People generally do not want to risk the displeasure of the lord, or those who may have his ear.

[KorvinStarmast]

Away from books, but doesn't the Firbolg get something that is a lot like this? 3/day disguise self, with some tweaks. Volo's is full of all kinds of power creepy.

@LudicSavant: you do realize that there are far more features for the war forged, see armor class. The UA has far too many features for a race as compared to all other races. Is my suggestion a step a little far? No, not when you include all of the other racial features. But maybe go with two not 4 as a compromise.

Dear D&D fan base: Only You Can Stop Bloat.

[LudicSavant]

@LudicSavant: you do realize that there are far more features for the war forged, see armor class.

I do realize this, and my posts indicate this, so I'm not sure what you think your point is.

[KorvinStarmast]

I do realize this, and my posts indicate this, so I'm not sure what you think your point is. The number of features proposed for all of the classes in the UA are excessive. That is my point, and all you have to do is open the PHB and compare. The warforged needs trimming: it is bloated.

[Tetrasodium]

Aberrant dragonmarks are a feat, not a character creation subrace / variant race. A warforged couldn't have one before level 4, and only at the cost of an ASI. Also,

@Shining Wrath A DM would not be out of line, at all, to say that any person with an aberrant dragonmark would be in danger if they used it publicly, and that any member of one of the Houses would not be willing to keep company with an aberrant mark carrier except under the most unusual circumstances. A warforged with an aberrant mark would be doubly repugnant to society. So while it's not RAW like it was in the 3.5 rules, it's certainly arguable that aberrant dragonmarks mean that the Houses want you dead. You're not only dangerous to life and limb, you're dangerous to their control of the world. Now, a DM who wanted aberrant dragonmarks could weaken this penalty; I could even see a fun campaign where everyone in the party was an aberrant marked warforged. But the clear reading of the text is that an aberrant dragonmark makes you an outcast to a MUCH greater degree than being a warforged; it's more akin to playing a monstrous character like a bugbear in most campaigns.

all of that is correct yes. I have a player with an aberrant mark in two of my games (different players). In both cases there have been people who refused to do business with the party if the individual was present or anywhere near their shops then charged like 200-300%. The fact that they were in droaam one game & a broken timeline the other were the only thing that kept someone from reporting them to someone who would try to hunt down the dangerous individual. In both cases, the aberrant marked characters frequently do things like explode the room into flames & worse when things are going poorly or make a save to avoid doing so.... so often in fact that the players themselves openly express concerns over the individuals sometimes. I only went after your dragonmark comment because any race can develop an aberrant mark
/url


Maybe because I missed/chose to miss late AD&D/2nd through 4.0 and never played Spelljammer, Dark Sun or Ebberon (aka to my wife as Harry Potter with more diversity) I do not understand why something has to be “core” and why it would be Bad to have stand alone variants? Magic Trains and Planes just seem off in a high fantasy setting was would certain high fantasy elements in a Napoleonic Fantasy and a in a magic technology world.

@zorrrogames I think eberron fans in general are tickled pink that WotC has accepted eberron being cleaved away from everything else in its own little space. You see some of those eberron fans (like myself) poking at the way eberron was so explicitly omitted from the core books because A it's been something we always get pushback on whenever frustrations about it are expressed and B because detractors are often saying how eberron stuff should not consider eberron because it should be able to fit into some hypothetical no magic setting with minimal items. Eberron is neither napoleanic nor higfh fantasy though, here are some great blogposts from Keith Baker that should give you a good feel for it. rural eberron (http://keith-baker.com/rural-eberron/), common magic part1 (http://keith-baker.com/common-magic/), (part2) magewrights & wand adepts (http://keith-baker.com/dragonmarks-magewrights/). someone put together a history book for the setting back in the 4e days & cane up with the grand history of eberron weighing in at around 500 pages but there are lots of sourcebooks that cover specific topics if you start looking. Something possibly unique to eberron is that novels (even Keith Baker's own) are not cannon. It's more like how would the world develop id magic was real that happens to be set after a near century of civil war that ended poorly like WW1 with no clear winner & everyone unhappy with the results so tensions are still high. Keith talks about it a bi in this dragontalk here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_95EaQMvPmA&feature=youtu.be). I feel like I saw another one where he talks more but think it was just an uncut version of his contributions split across parts of the video recently as well but couldn't find it.



JoeJ, regarding a warforged being a sorcerer, isn't that simple to write off as having to do with they soul? I don't think it is defined where those souls come from. They can be recycled or just spontaneously created, and they are all different. That may give some the powers that PC's have to make them special.

As to the noble background, if a warforged were from a noble family it would be reasonable to think they may have a connection to that family, just as a third son might. The same reason would make people want to be respectful towards them. They would not want the warforged going back to his old home and speaking about how badly he was treated by (shopkeeper/minor official/peasant). People generally do not want to risk the displeasure of the lord, or those who may have his ear.

@mellack warforged do have "blood". It may not be made of hemoglobin & red blood cells, but the livewood portions of their body indeed have sap and like the rock/metal parts are actually alive



So, trying to parse a very long explanation, it sounds like some warforged who were originally purchased by nobles are now treated as nobles themselves. Is that right? I didn't realize there had been that big a change in attitude, from property to effectively noble, since the end of the Last War.

Also, that the creators knew how to produce warforged with the same magical powers that a sorcerer would manifest? That sound possible I guess, but if they could do that, wouldn't they come out of the factory fully-developed? That is, shouldn't they already have as many sorcerer levels as they could possibly manifest? (Granted, that would not be very compatible with the class advancement that is the core of D&D, so maybe that part just needs to be handwaved in order to have the race be playable.)

This is a very unhelpful comment. Not all of us are well versed in Eberron lore, so it would have been much better had you instead presented some of the imaginative ideas that are apparently obvious to you.

@JoeJ
Many of the questions you are asking are not simple ones that can be trivially answered because eberron itself is rather complex with a great many deliberately unanswered questions being a big part of that complexity. Your seeming refusal to do things like read suggested blog posts that might help you understand does not help matters.

Lets start with the easy one again. The noble background is not as problematic as you are doing your best to make it out to be.
"Skill Proficiencies: History, Persuasion" <-- Nope, no issue there. "Tool Proficiencies: One type of gaming set" <-- again no issue whatsoever. Languages: One of your choice <-- one of the subtypes gets two of them, I'm not sure why this would be an issue. "Equipment: A set of fine clothes, a signet ring, a scroll of pedigree, and a purse containing 25 gp" <-- Fine clothes could be as easy as a nice paintjob, fancy hat, glamourweave bowtie, etc. A scroll of pedigree?... my dog has one of those. eberron has had identification papers since the start(although I'm uncertain ifd they have that name), this could be as simple as an extra page/footnote on yours denoting that you served such & such family/individual in $whatever capacity. A signet ring?... Quaint compared to a House Sivvis/Kundarak authentication stamp that leaves behind a verifiable arcane mark or similar, but this is hardly controversial. "A purse with 25gp" <-- When the warforged were freed, they were given backpay as part of the terms of the treaty of thronehold that freed them & those sums were often far in excess of that. The feature?

Feature: Position of Privilege
Thanks to your noble birth, people are inclined to think the best of you. You are welcome in high society, and people assume you have the right to be wherever you are. The common folk make every effort to accommodate you and avoid your displeasure, and other people of high birth treat you as a member of the same social sphere. You can secure an audience with a local noble if you need to
There are a ton of ways that you could spin this.. Simply bearing the crest of a dragonmarked house & having the identification at the door would put you on good footing. I even linked to a blurb about Bulwark who could absolutely be considered a noble by many. One of the things about eberron is that a dragonmarked house member might be higher in status than a noble depending on all sorts of things. You might even still be in their employ & thus actually deserve that status gained from that background.


As to the sorcerer question you keep having trouble with... House Cannith did not invent the creation forges, they just found them & figured out how to make them work/make more. Through the entire war,House Cannith was refining & experimenting with new designs. They don't actually know how it works entirely. It's kind of like Tesla being given a working breeder reactor back in his day. He doesn't need to know how it works in order to tease its secrets out enough to reproduce it well enough to make more or to produce electricity with the results. One of the credible theories for why the day of mourning happened & why the treaty of thronehold required them to disassemble their creation forges is because House Cannith had their creation forge there & the possibility that something went wrong in ways nobody understands.

The problem you are having is that you are going out of your way to deliberately not understand & instead want an absolute handed to you. Eberron is a world with a great many things deliberately left inanswered making it mpossible to give you that absolute you are asking for

[JoeJ]

{scrubbed}

I asked in good faith for an explanation. If all you can come up with is insults, there's no point in continuing this.

[Kadesh]

I asked in good faith for an explanation. If all you can come up with is insults, there's no point in continuing this.

There was never a point in the first place if you can't conceptualize the reason why a piece of metal, stone and wood handwaived into existence would be any less magical than a dragon, lich, demon, or bloodsucking mist.

[Waterdeep Merch]

I asked in good faith for an explanation. If all you can come up with is insults, there's no point in continuing this.
To be succinct, Eberron is about turning assumptions on their head and following that rabbit hole to new conclusions. You're not supposed to try and use standard explanations for things, else you'll end up frustrated.

Instead of asking how a warforged can be a noble, you should be asking why a warforged is being treated like one.

[LudicSavant]

Okay. So how does that give an inherited ability to a creature with no parents? Can a warforged character also have the noble background?

Hi JoeJ. Sorry some people are being rude about this. Lemme give this a shot.

Regarding Sorcerers:
Eberron, and the Warforged, were originally conceived back in 3.5e. Back in 3.5e, the fluff for Sorcerers was that they had natural access to magic, but the source was not fully understood; draconic (or otherwise magical) bloodlines was one of numerous competing theories, explanations, and variants. As such basically any cause for the manifestation of innate magic was fair game.

Additionally, Warforged are not strictly constructs; they are living constructs, with a network of living roots holding together metallic parts and a variety of sustaining enchantments. Additionally, the source of their sapience is a closely guarded Cannith secret (if, indeed, Cannith really knows the ultimate source at all, given that they seem to basing their work off of the ancient creation forges found in the ruins of Xen'drik).

It is entirely possible that the reason that Warforged can become Sorcerers isn't well-understood by the public, and even that it could be the basis for adventure and discovery in your own games (such as many of the intentionally unanswered questions in Eberron, like "what really caused the Mourning?").

Regarding the Noble background:
So I'm not entirely sure what's being asked here. Certainly, a Warforged would not be considered "of noble birth" by the general populace of the Five Nations (pretty much the core of the "default" starting continent for Eberron). In those cultures, there are noble families, and the "ir'" prefix indicates that you have a noble last name (like "Boranel ir'Wynarn"). The only way I could think of for a Warforged to get such a title would be through adoption, and it would no doubt be scandalous.

However, when I think of the noble background, I don't really think of that. I think "has access to high society" (per their feature), "has rich people gear," and "has proficiency in History, Persuasion, and a Gaming Set." And I don't really see any reason an accomplished Warforged couldn't have access to all of those things.

It is also worth noting that the Dragonmarked Houses includes a number of high society folks on a similarly lofty social footing compared to nobles, despite technically not being nobles. Warforged can sometimes rise to great prestige in these houses, and the benefits of doing so is often very similar to the benefits of the Noble background.

Hope that helps!

[Exocist]

Is that true if you remove the PHB+1?

My table doesn't play with PHB+1, so I'll tell you the races we've used across all the characters

Half-Orc (Only because the DM allowed me to swap out the stat bonuses for +2 DEX +1 WIS because I wanted to play an oriental character. Otherwise probably would have been V. Human)
V. Human
Forest Gnome
V. Human
Shadar-Kai (Only for Elven Accuracy, otherwise would have been V. Human)
Yuan-Ti (Player in question wanted Magic Resistance because he was playing Fighter 20 and didn't want to get screwed by WIS saves. The DM told us there were more spellcasters in advance. If neither of those conditions were met, it would have been V. Human).
V. Human
V. Human
V. Human (Yep, for one campaign all three players picked V. Human)

Counting that up, there's 5 (out of 9) V. Humans, 3 could have been V. Humans, 2 PHB Races that aren't V Human (admittedly, one was altered so really doesn't count), 1 MToF race and 1 Volo's race.

Seriously I believe the most picked race at my table would be V. Human. There are multiple factors contributing to V. Human being so good, but generally the racial bonuses from anything that doesn't have flight or isn't Volos tends to suck badly, whereas V. Humans are almost always good and generally applicable (their stat bonuses).

[Finback]

How would you justify gaining sorcerer levels with a race that has no bloodline and no ancestors?

* The crystal used to provide a focus for the power is the crystallised heart of a dragon. - Draconic
* During testing, an infusion of too much power triggered a surge. - Wild Magic
* Frankensteinan lightning provided the initial boost - Storm
* PRIMUS BLESS THESE HOLY COGS - Divine Soul
* So, we may have tried using a new fuel source - and shoved in an elemental!- Phoenix

etc etc otherwise, you get into the whole realm of "why do lady dragonborn have boobs if they are reptiles*" which is Beside The Point



* inb4 Synapsida

[Finback]

„Any animal that hunts in packs“ in the race flavor text. Broad, yes, but still.

XD XD XD

https://img00.deviantart.net/294f/i/2014/017/1/f/deinonychus_pack_vs_sauropelta_by_raph04art-d72mzcl.jpg

[Finback]

No, I'm having trouble working out how a robot gets considered a noble by the very same people who considered it to be property just two years earlier.

Maybe it saved the life of the noble, and a few years down the line, the noble was on their death bed and realised, "I don't have an heir, and you've served me without fault or complaint. What distant relatives I have are a bunch of petty, greedy snobs. You are my true heir."

I mean, if people can will their homes and estates to their cats in our world, pretty sure you could confer your heritage onto a warforged.

Hell, it even sets up character plots - what if the distant family want to contest it? They claim a warforged doesn't truly have sentience, so can't inherit. PC has to then prove themselves in the eyes of both society AND the courts. It could go either way - society accepts it, but the courts say "yeah, nah, you get nothing", or "yep, you're the legal heir" and society is all, "careful now! Down with this sort of thing!"

[Draken]

Maybe it saved the life of the noble, and a few years down the line, the noble was on their death bed and realised, "I don't have an heir, and you've served me without fault or complaint. What distant relatives I have are a bunch of petty, greedy snobs. You are my true heir."

I mean, if people can will their homes and estates to their cats in our world, pretty sure you could confer your heritage onto a warforged.

Hell, it even sets up character plots - what if the distant family want to contest it? They claim a warforged doesn't truly have sentience, so can't inherit. PC has to then prove themselves in the eyes of both society AND the courts. It could go either way - society accepts it, but the courts say "yeah, nah, you get nothing", or "yep, you're the legal heir" and society is all, "careful now! Down with this sort of thing!"

For a less dramatic option and likely significantly more common alternative. Loyal servant awarded title of non-hereditary nobility.

[LudicSavant]

Maybe it saved the life of the noble, and a few years down the line, the noble was on their death bed and realised, "I don't have an heir, and you've served me without fault or complaint. What distant relatives I have are a bunch of petty, greedy snobs. You are my true heir."

I mean, if people can will their homes and estates to their cats in our world, pretty sure you could confer your heritage onto a warforged.

Hell, it even sets up character plots - what if the distant family want to contest it? They claim a warforged doesn't truly have sentience, so can't inherit. PC has to then prove themselves in the eyes of both society AND the courts. It could go either way - society accepts it, but the courts say "yeah, nah, you get nothing", or "yep, you're the legal heir" and society is all, "careful now! Down with this sort of thing!"

I like this. :redcloak:

[Sception]

How would you justify gaining sorcerer levels with a race that has no bloodline and no ancestors?

Your dragon-blooded warforged sorcerer literally has dragon blood pumping through the equivalent of its circulatory system.

During the creation process, the preserved and alchemically treated blood of a/an (insert appropriate fantastic creature for the given type of sorcerer) was poured into the creation forge, for the explicit purpose of creating a warforged with sorcerous power. This attempt was either immediately successful (sorcerer at lvl 1) or else at first seemed a failure, only for latent sorcerous power to spontaneously manifest later on (multiclassing into sorcerer).

[MeeposFire]

Really there are lots of answers really the question is how do you want your character to answer this question? Is it a mystery, were you created using the flesh or essence of some magical creature (such as a dragon), was it a spontaneous gaining of power and it seems similar to what other creatures get from a bloodline but is clearly not having that bloodline? As for being a noble other people have given various answers but a given player that takes that background should come up with the back story for it. Heck it is not that different than what a player should do already. Think about it even if a noble are you new nobility or old nobility? Does your family still have lots of money or are they more a big name but with little wealth to back it up? Are you hereditary nobility or are you nobility because you have been granted a title but that title may not be able to be given to your heirs (and also note that if your parent was that type of noble you may not get that title either but while your parent is alive you may be treated like one). Perhaps you were knighted (works very well with Warforged which in Eberron is probably most likely in Breland).

No single idea fits all but there are lots of options so if you want it choose one.

[werescythe]

I actually feel like this UA buffed all the races offered in the previous Eberron UA. I like it. Sign me up for manipulative changeling. :smallbiggrin:

[Fnissalot]

If you as a DM would run a low magic item campaign, you should probably not include warforged to begin with. They are machines brought to life by magic. They would not fit in a low magic world...

[Zalabim]

Scaling an ability to match an assumed magic item progression never works in 5E. Just make a magic item that can be integrated for the extra AC instead. That cannot be the reason that Warforged get such high AC. If it is currently the reason, then it isn't a good enough reason to keep such high AC. I imagine it could be done to keep their bonus AC relevant across levels, but I don't believe that +4 AC is necessary for it to stay relevant. An AC bonus provides a fairly steady bonus without needing to expand as levels go by, unlike HP, damage, or healing.


Okay. So how does that give an inherited ability to a creature with no parents? Can a warforged character also have the noble background?
Maybe they were adopted.

Also, that the creators knew how to produce warforged with the same magical powers that a sorcerer would manifest? That sound possible I guess, but if they could do that, wouldn't they come out of the factory fully-developed? That is, shouldn't they already have as many sorcerer levels as they could possibly manifest? (Granted, that would not be very compatible with the class advancement that is the core of D&D, so maybe that part just needs to be handwaved in order to have the race be playable.)
Because sorcerers automatically have all the levels they can ever have once they reach adulthood normally, right? This is no different than a character of any other race that has a sorcerous origin.

[xen]

Love the warforged changes. If it doesn't fit your world, don't allow it. AC does not need a nerf imo. Could care less about league play.

Now we need a full caster Artificer!!!

Keith Baker is the man. Was just talking about running an Eberron game next. Now i don't have to dig out all the 3.5 books.

[ZorroGames]

Love the warforged changes. If it doesn't fit your world, don't allow it. AC does not need a nerf imo. Could care less about league play.

Now we need a full caster Artificer!!!

Keith Baker is the man. Was just talking about running an Eberron game next. Now i don't have to dig out all the 3.5 books.

I think this needs emphasized. If it fits you can use it, if it does not, simply say, “No.”

I for one would not want it in the current format.

Being in an AL only game group I seriously do not want potentially unbalanced aspects introduced. UA your heart away and give feedback. When it is balanced to WotC satisfaction then they will have to fit it in or admit it is a intentional stand alone.

[jaappleton]

Artificer arrives next month.

[Rogerdodger557]

Artificer arrives next month.

I can't wait. And after the feedback they get on it, it's going to be added to WGtE. And once they have everything they want in it for a full Eberron guide, it will be available for Print on Demand.

[xen]

Artificer arrives next month.
Don't play with my heart brah! Is there a source on that?

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I think this needs emphasized. If it fits you can use it, if it does not, simply say, “No.”

I for one would not want it in the current format.

Being in an AL only game group I seriously do not want potentially unbalanced aspects introduced. UA your heart away and give feedback. When it is balanced to WotC satisfaction then they will have to fit it in or admit it is a intentional stand alone.

My hope is that it's all ultimately released in a non-AL-legal format.

[xen]

I think this needs emphasized. If it fits you can use it, if it does not, simply say, “No.”

I for one would not want it in the current format.

Being in an AL only game group I seriously do not want potentially unbalanced aspects introduced. UA your heart away and give feedback. When it is balanced to WotC satisfaction then they will have to fit it in or admit it is a intentional stand alone.

I get it. Things need to be somewhat balanced in AL as i assume munchkinry is prevalent there. I guess sometimes i get a little rubbed raw by the "we can't have nice things cause possible AL abuse..." theme.

I guess i like my Eberron to be high magic. Just my personal opinion. Would prefer they diassociate Eberron from other settings but it's all good. I'm probably in the minority and they need to sell books.

[Tetrasodium]

I get it. Things need to be somewhat balanced in AL as i assume munchkinry is prevalent there. I guess sometimes i get a little rubbed raw by the "we can't have nice things cause possible AL abuse..." theme.

I guess i like my Eberron to be high magic. Just my personal opinion. Would prefer they diassociate Eberron from other settings but it's all good. I'm probably in the minority and they need to sell books.


That is the problem, it's not overpowered. People just keep saying that it must be despite the fact that others have broken down the numbers to show that its not out of line at all. By now it has just devolved to people parroting "worries" and "hoping" that wotc nerfs it so it fits some hypothetical no/very very low magic campaign

[jaappleton]

Don't play with my heart brah! Is there a source on that?

A magician never reveals his secrets, Xen.



And by that, I mean Mearls told me himself on Twitter.

https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/1021497674258935808

[Shining Wrath]

Regarding warforged being sorcerers:
Every warforged has a unique sigil on their forehead, called a "ghulra" which is dwarven for "truth". House Cannith did not put it there, and do not know why it is there; it's different for every individual.

This is sometimes used as evidence for warforged having a soul. It is certainly evidence that the warforged creation forges do things that Cannith does not understand. They are using magic someone else invented to create creatures that can only exist because of magic.

It is therefore entirely plausible that from time to time a warforged comes out of the forges capable of using magic they've never learned. The essence of a sorcerer is that they do magic because they ARE magic; a warforged, more than a humanoid, is inherently magical.

As to a noble warforged - adoption. The noble Bob ir'Robert lost all his family during the war, but the warforged Slash saved Lord ir'Robert 257 different times during the war, displaying all of the cardinal virtues during each of the 257 instances, and was therefore adopted as Bob's heir.

[Raynor007]

Regarding the Warforged AC issue:

For roleplaying purposes, might this make a lot of sense? That those things made to be soldiers be harder to hit or to kill? I think such a thing is balanced by other aspects of roleplay (not being able to drink with the rest of the party, or in later campaigns, outliving their companions), to say nothing of the fact that they aren't living, per se. Lots of philosophical questions that can enter into the game. Point being, I think that their racial traits and bonuses balance out the other races' in gameplay, even if (if) they are more powerful mechanically.

[Waazraath]

Right.

Firbolgs have:
- +2 Wis/+1 Str, a rather unique set.
- Powerful Build (one size larger for carrying capacity / lifting ability)
- At-will ability to communicate with beasts.
- At-will ability to communicate with plants.
- Get at-will Advantage on all Charisma checks to influence beasts.
- Get at-will Advantage on all Charisma checks to influence plants.
- Can turn Invisible as a bonus action, 1/Short Rest (good for giving themselves Advantage, disengaging, and the like).
- Get two bonus language (Elvish and Giant).
- Can cast Detect Magic 1/Short Rest.
- Can cast Disguise Self 1/Short Rest, with the added ability to change size when doing so. Since the given DMG assumption is 2 short rests / average adventuring day, that works out to about 3/day just as you say.

And they're still generally considered a fairly underwhelming race even for their main job (Clerics and Druids) with all of that, rated low even on Cleric guides such as this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?374604-The-Devout-and-the-Dead-a-guide-to-Clerics).

Thanks. Have to admit that I'm not agreeing with the assessment from Cleric guide you link to. Melee clerics that function as secondary melee need primary wis, secondary strength; given the ability modifiers of Firbolg, I think it's a good race for those (just as it is a good race for strength based rangers, and for druids). That bonus action Invisibility, you describe its options very well, and it gets even better on classes that usually can't get that kind of thing (Invisibility is mostly on the arcane spell lists - bard, sorcerer, wizard, warlock.... with the exception of 1 subclass of ranger I think).


Volo's is full of all kinds of power creepy.


Really? I mean, I'm still away from books, but what I rembember from the monster races is that none of them is truely impressive. Yuan ti is good, given their protection against magic, but it is compensated by getting two ablity score modifiers that don't have any synergy. Kobold might be overpowerd in an underdark only campaign, else its 'easy advantage' gets canceld out by 'permanent disadvantage' (and inferior ability modefiers to boot). Hobgoblins make ok wizards and that's it, goblins and bugbears are ok but hardly gamebreaking, and orcs are one of the few races where I think the designers messed up a bit, and delivered an (comperatively) underpowered race (especially compared with half-orc). As for the non-monster races, I think especially Aasimar, Firbolg and Lizardfolk are strong. But none of them are auto-picks; Variant Human, Half-Elf, High-Elf, Dwarf (both types) are still very strong choices for a lot of classes (or builds). I don't see Volo dominate any tables (and we never play PHB +1)

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Even without having synergy with the Cha and Int, yuan-ti are one of the best races. Advantage against all forms of magic, +2 to arguably the strongest single attribute, a very strong spell 1/day, a damage cantrip and immunity to a damage type and condition is really, really strong. They're probably the best general race for Cha-based classes, though vHu and half-elves might outclass them in certain niches.

[xen]

A magician never reveals his secrets, Xen.



And by that, I mean Mearls told me himself on Twitter.

https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/1021497674258935808

Sweet. Thanks.


That is the problem, it's not overpowered. People just keep saying that it must be despite the fact that others have broken down the numbers to show that its not out of line at all. By now it has just devolved to people parroting "worries" and "hoping" that wotc nerfs it so it fits some hypothetical no/very very low magic campaign

Yeah I'm not seeing it either. Personally i think it's done very well. Very excited to get my hands on the Eberron pdf and getting a game rolling.

[Tetrasodium]

Sweet. Thanks.



Yeah I'm not seeing it either. Personally i think it's done very well. Very excited to get my hands on the Eberron pdf and getting a game rolling.

it's an easy download (http://www.dmsguild.com/product/247882/Wayfinders-Guide-to-Eberron-5e) & very worth it with the great 5e adaptation :smallbiggrin:

[LudicSavant]

That is the problem, it's not overpowered. People just keep saying that it must be despite the fact that others have broken down the numbers to show that its not out of line at all. By now it has just devolved to people parroting "worries" and "hoping" that wotc nerfs it so it fits some hypothetical no/very very low magic campaign

Let us hope that cooler heads prevail.


Thanks. You're welcome :smallsmile:


Have to admit that I'm not agreeing with the assessment from Cleric guide you link to. Melee clerics that function as secondary melee need primary wis, secondary strength; given the ability modifiers of Firbolg, I think it's a good race for those (just as it is a good race for strength based rangers, and for druids). That bonus action Invisibility, you describe its options very well, and it gets even better on classes that usually can't get that kind of thing (Invisibility is mostly on the arcane spell lists - bard, sorcerer, wizard, warlock.... with the exception of 1 subclass of ranger I think).

I'd personally rate it a bit higher than they did, too. I think we're on roughly the same page here (that it's a decent pick for melee clerics but isn't going to put the old PHB standbys like Hill Dwarves and VHumans out of work).


Really? I mean, I'm still away from books, but what I rembember from the monster races is that none of them is truely impressive.
Yuan-Ti are genuinely impressive. But yeah, Korvin calling everything else in Volo's "all kinds of power creepy" is just alarmist.

[PeteNutButter]

That is the problem, it's not overpowered. People just keep saying that it must be despite the fact that others have broken down the numbers to show that its not out of line at all. By now it has just devolved to people parroting "worries" and "hoping" that wotc nerfs it so it fits some hypothetical no/very very low magic campaign


Let us hope that cooler heads prevail.

That's what I said in my first post on this thread. They seem so afraid that competitive options that they make will be overpowered that they have a tendency in 5e to make things rather weak. I suppose it's better to err on the side of caution, but there are a lot of races (and subclasses) that are mechanically terribly outclassed by others.

Remember the Githzerai? Yeah... I'm still salty about it.

[Shining Wrath]

I think the important thing to remember during min-max discussions is that all the classes are "Tier 2" or "Tier 3" now. There's no 3.5 god-wizards or monster clerics because a spellcaster can't stack buffs on top of buffs due to the concentration rules. There's no 3.5 monks or fighters where they can really only do one thing, and that not much better than anyone else.

By which I mean, the difference between a high-op but no-cheese character with a perfectly matched class and race, and a let's-try-this mismatched class and race, exists; but it's not so large that a party with the two characters would not be fun for let's-try-this.

As a DM, I do ban VHuman and flying races. Although I'm reconsidering VHuman. It's just that every build guide I see always gives VHuman the top rating.

[Gydian]

Question about unarmored defense.

As I see it the Warforged AC on a monk is 11+Dex+Wis because monk has no armor proficiency. Would a Barbarian have 11+Dex+Con+Prof? Because they have proficiency with Light Armor?

[Waterdeep Merch]

Question about unarmored defense.

As I see it the Warforged AC on a monk is 11+Dex+Wis because monk has no armor proficiency. Would a Barbarian have 11+Dex+Con+Prof? Because they have proficiency with Light Armor?
No, because you only get to use one armor calculation. So you'd choose between 11+Dex+Proficiency, or 10+Dex+Con.

[Gydian]

No, because you only get to use one armor calculation. So you'd choose between 11+Dex+Proficiency, or 10+Dex+Con.

Would you disagree with my assesment of Monk AC than?

[Waterdeep Merch]

Would you disagree with my assesment of Monk AC than?
A monk still has to choose between either the warforged calculation or the monk's, you can't combine aspects of calculations to get the best of both. So it'll be 11+Dex or 10+Dex+Wis, but you can't choose 11+Dex+Wis.

[Tetrasodium]

Would you disagree with my assesment of Monk AC than?

Both questions have long been answered by lizardfolk scales, moon druid wildshape forms, etc. you can choose which armor calculation you want to use but it's A or B or C, you can't combineunless it's worded like the defensive style or something.

[Gydian]

In the first UA Warforged had composite plating which gave a +1 to AC. This does not interfere with unarmored defense. Now with this new integrated protection it turns into a way to calculate making them separate. I would allow the old +1 if you choose UD, but that’s me.

These things are supposed to be hard to hit. This new way of calculating is a bit much, If you took the medium armor and made it 12+Dex+Prof (max 2) and the heavy 15+Prof that would even it out a bit.